Third Party & Independents Archives

A 'Big Idea' Toward Providing Protection For Students

A commonsense approach to providing protection for school students. Gov’t/local officials failed Parkland ‘Biggly’. No entity has more investment in student safety than the students themselves.

We all understand that gun control won't stop school shootings. 'The way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun'.

We know that to prevent/minimize casualty/injury to students an armed defender must be with the students at the time of the incident.

We know, from Parkland, that one armed person is not sufficient. A dozen or so armed people would be sufficient to corner/kill an attacker. The initial objective is to take the attackers mind off the students as targets.

99.99% of schools have not, and never will be attacked. Does it make sense to have a cadre of teachers, retired military/police, or 'School Resource Officers' on duty from 0600-2200 hours, maybe six days a week, waiting for an attack on that school? Carrying a weapon on their person year after year after year. What a complete waste of human resources.

While teachers are present daily should we expect teachers to take on such a responsibility? Would they be available to cover all extra curricular activities in numbers required?

Maybe the students would like to protect themselves. They are in the school in large numbers daily and for all school activities. Consider how this might be feasible.
Most states require a person to be 18 years of age to carry a pistol. 22 states are already considering laws that would allow for concealed carry in schools.

School defenders would be selected from the junior and senior classes. Both 17 and 18 year olds could participate but only 18 year olds would be permitted to carry a weapon and attack a shooter. 17 year olds could train and prepare for participation on turning 18.

Initial filtering for those volunteering for the program.

Parent(s) must be willing
No discipline issues from the 9th grade forward
Member of a church or similar organization
Maintain a grade of 85 or 'B'

Selection process:

Senior and junior classes would vote, up or down, on those 17/18 year old students who have volunteered to serve as a school defender.

The junior senior student body would then vote, up or down, on those students that have been selected.

Lastly, the teaching staff would then vote up/down on those students who have been selected.

School defenders would be trained in the use of firearms, how to approach and engage a school shooter, how to interact with the local police, how to disengage from the incident and turn the incident over to local police.

The defenders should be known to each other, perhaps wear a vest of color to make their presence known to all.

An SRO and/or a school designee would control an arms/ammo locker room. Students would pick up a weapon at the beginning of the school day and turn it in as they leave the school.

Posted by Roy Ellis at February 22, 2018 7:48 PM
Comment #424652

Federal, state and local officials failed to protect Parkland students ‘really biggly’. The FBI, Florida governor, Broward County Mayor, local police force, Broward County school board/system, teaching admin/staff and lastly, the RSO.

After more than a week after the shooting incident the local police announce that the SRO knelt down near the West wing entrance to the school and remained their, never making an attempt to encounter the shooter.

Parents will rightly sue the state to high heavens. And, this will set a precedent for any further school shootings. Gov’t has been put on notice to take some action to prevent school shootings.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at February 22, 2018 8:19 PM
Comment #424653

Lawsuits are an inevitability. I have very little faith that lawsuits achieve anything other than the distribution of wealth. Owners of corporations don’t “pay”, their insurance companies do. I’d rather see criminal proceedings after these types of failures, not civil ones.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 22, 2018 10:46 PM
Comment #424662

Ok Roy, there are so many factors in play here so let’s break this down some.

How can we expect 17/18 year old winners of a popularity contest to properly engage a shooter, when a deputy with more extensive training lost his nerve and could not do his job of engaging the shooter?

You mention some good training ideas, but one of the most important training needed in such a situation would be them working as a team. As one unit. The turnover ratio alone would prevent this.

How do we guard against the rash decision making that kids in high school are prone to make? Abuse at home, broken hearts from that first love of your life, public embarrassment, failure, are just a few examples where this age group makes split second decisions that affect the rest of their lives, and the lives of those around them.

IMO, there are just so many negatives that cannot be overcome.

Posted by: kctim at February 23, 2018 9:37 AM
Comment #424666

Roy can we call this “big idea” the “NRA plan to feed the sheep to the wolves so I can keep my AR-15” response to the problem? Sending anyone with a .22 pistol to kill a guy with an AR-15! FFS. Wanting to solve the problem on the cheap is commendable Roy, however a full time training program would be required as these students graduate.

Oh come on guys it’s not that hard if we are going to actually think this NRA type misinformation is a good idea. Send these popularity contests winner to a war zone let them get a couple of kills under their belts then back home to guard the schools. Lord knows we got enough war zones for them to practice. Whats more important, getting them an education or ready to kill?

I have to sat Roy your qualification are well.. ROTC..(as was the last shooter) and can Muslims and Jews and Satanists also apply? BTW how many teachers are killed in these shooting, to hear you talk none but the facts are different.

What we don’t know, despite Roy telling us we do, is “We all understand that gun control won’t stop school shootings”. It works everywhere else in the world. Yet we are asked to believe it won’t work here. Roy would also have us believe “The way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun’”. Which of course failed miserably this last incident. And fails regularly, ask the families of all the dead cops from the past decade. They all had weapons, they all were good guys yet they are dead.

The problem we have here is asking a student, or as we do in Colorado a teacher, to keep the body count down by going after a kid with an AR-15 whilst using a hand gun! FFS guys making the teacher or student the one legged man in the a** kicking contest is your answer and you wonder why I laugh at this. Doing it in the name of your 2nd amendment rights is pathetic. Using a false premise and misinformation to make it seem logical is morally wrong.

Your ideology keeps you from doing what is right. Use the same standards you apply to banning semi-auto weapons as you do to this “big idea”. You tell us banning AR-15’s and such won’t solve the problem. Maybe not but it will go a long ways towards leveling the playing field. Then teachers could go into battle with a much better chance of accomplishing something. BTW if they carry shouldn’t they also get combat zone pay?

The reality in asking the popular kids to be the judge jury and executioner is fraught with danger. The kids aren’t ready mentally despite being able to go off to war just a year later. Look at how many PTSD cases we get from sending them off at a young age to fight wars of imperialism.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 23, 2018 11:59 AM
Comment #424667


Don’t think arming students is the answer, when there teachers and administrators who will be more likely to be willing. I also don’t believe that you can’t judge a book by its cover when it comes to stepping up in a high stress situation. Look at the coach, and the Jr ROTC student.

There is plenty of training available out in the private sector, and many LEOs and Mil seek out this training to supplement their skills. I’ve taken a decent number of classes. There are classes that cover all aspects. Small unit tactics, active shooter, force on foece where many different and random situations are played out with simunition guns, as well as close quarters fighting.

Posted by: dbs at February 23, 2018 12:00 PM
Comment #424668

Does this training also include anything about when the cops show up and start looking for anyone with a gun? Will the student be forced to the ground and treated like a criminal or will they be wearing say a target or something so the police will know not to shoot first and ask later? Or will they be considered expendable after the battle is over.

Lets look at this without conservative ideology getting in the way.
Lets say your kid hits a kid with a stick. What do you do
1/ Give everybody sticks
2/ Give sticks to certain popular kids
3/ Take the sticks away.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 23, 2018 12:25 PM
Comment #424669

Right there with you and using the willing adults, dbs. As a group, they would be highly more likely to accept the responsibility and needed training classes for the position.

I applaud Roy for giving serious thought to this, I just don’t think today’s youth is up for it.

Posted by: kctim at February 23, 2018 12:41 PM
Comment #424673

Kctim, all good questions. Yeah, I just gave a brief skelton of the school defender program. I see where the President, Florida Governor and some others are promoting arming some teachers. Some states, like Texas, are already doing that.

An option might be to use teachers and students as defenders. By so doing we could take the air out of opposition who would say its not the teachers responsibility and to those who would say our students are children, can’t make decisions and so on …

As to students being selected in a popularity contest - it wouldn’t be sold that way kctim. Think back to your school days. Your classmates knew each other better, perhaps better than the student’s parents. They knew who was weak(er), strong(er), more mature and serious for their age, who had integrity and who didn’t, and so on. The students would be advised to treat their vote as a matter of life and death, perhaps their life.

On properly engaging a shooter – could be some defenders would not engage a shooter. I believe most would. They would derive much initiative and courage to engage just from being with their classmates/friends. Some might have close family in the same school. You do want sufficient numbers to cover all situations if possible. Again, if you don’t have the numbers maybe involve some teachers in the defender program. Had the Florida RSO/deputy had a sidekick with him he may very well have found the courage to follow his Bud into the action. Strength in numbers, and so on …

I agree with President Trump in that just have it known that guns are in the school would prevent most, if not all, would be shooters from attacking such a school.

As to turnover ratio impairing their ability - Being a team or a unit is extremely important. The chosen defenders would need to meet/train in part so they have facial recognition of each other. Preferably, training could be conducted by a retired Seal or similar. They would see each other often as the daily routine would be to pick up and turn their weapon to the RSO/gun locker room. They might choose to meet for lunch in the cafeteria every so often, etc. Being in the program for two years seems sufficient to me. The only thing the 17 yr olds would miss out on is the act of engaging a shooter.

Keep in mind that a school might get shot up once every 500-1000 years.

Some camaraderie and recognition could be gained by having the defenders wear a vest, perhaps a colored vest, or a color for each wing or floor of a school and so on … This would be most helpful at the point where the defenders are turning over the incident to local police on their arrival. Also, serves to conceal their weapon while carrying.

I suggest that if the selection process is followed there won’t be many life threatening incidents perpetrated by the defenders. The program should be set up so that defenders and student body police each other. If a defender shows problems that is worrisome then any student or any defender should speak up and perhaps that defender will be removed from the defender group.

All commonsense stuff, just depends on how the program is bolted together as to how well it would work. Turning the incident over to local police is a most critical moment. I would think that a unique alarm, known only to the defender group, would be sounded to signal the group to holster it and pull back to the RSO/locker room, immediately. Would need a backup, non electrical alarm of some sort.

Any negatives are far outweighed by the current status quo, kc. All the system/people failures that led to Parkland and other school shootings leave me to believe that student defender programs would be 99% positive.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at February 23, 2018 1:13 PM
Comment #424676

J2, try to use some commonsense thinging. The idea would be to ‘take the shooters mind off the students as targets’. I would suggest that a shooter, when confronted with some 10-15 people pointing guns and shooting at him will give him cause to seek shelter. Or, he might just stand his ground and shoot it out. Either way, his mind is likely not on shooting students but self preservation. Or, if he can gain access to a classroom he might go in. He might encounter a defender or two in the classroom.

I assume that a shooter in the classroom is the worst possible situation. All the police, military, defenders in the world can’t guarantee no one gets hurt in this situation. Maybe the best the defenders can do is keep him holed up in the classroom. Defenders might wait for the cops to arrive. Or, they might try to kill the shooter. No good outcome likely in this situation.

Preferably, the school would have been hardened to screen for a long gun coming in. Every classroom would have two lockable egresses. A communication system between admin and classrooms so that incidents could be coordinated. A video monitoring system should be in place to provide surveillance.

I don’t object to arming the defenders with a 38/45 or even special ammo but, I don’t see any real advantage there. Ten people shooting peas at you will get your attn, IMO.

I did not say anything about ‘ROTC’ you democrat. I wouldn’t want the ROTC or any group/person associated with the military to serve as a defender. Read my upper post. We would selection based on maturity, seriousness, integrity, known character, chosen by classmates who would trust this person to protect their life if need be.

PTSD j2? Maybe a school will get shot up every 1000 years or so. Hype it up man …

Kc, maybe the teachers you know are different than those I have been familiar with. I would say 80% of the teachers are female. Oh, oh, I’m in trouble with j2 now. Now, you might get an Ag teacher, a couple of sports coaches and so on, and they might do a very good job. My position is that the student defenders would do a much much better job.

I understand Texas uses teachers, I don’t know the numbers. Also, Florida just passed legislation to make teachers, who volunteer, Marshalls to protect their schools.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at February 23, 2018 2:00 PM
Comment #424677

Here is a feel good scenario for you.

A shooter gets into a hallway and the alarm is sounded. Classroom doors are locked. Defenders move out. Five are at east end of the hallway, five at the west wing. They have commo between them. Team one, at the east end tells team two to lay back and they will drive the shooter to the west end. They point their laser pistols at the shooter and fire away as he heads for the west end. West end defenders are watching around the corner with their mirrors. East end tells the west end that the shooter is within 50 feet of the west end and east end will stop firing. West end then pokes their guns around the corner and opens up, knocking the shooter to the floor. RSO is so advised and sounds the ‘pull back alarm’. Coroner comes in and totes the body away. High fives all around, and so on …

Ya gotta like that …

Posted by: Roy Ellis at February 23, 2018 2:33 PM
Comment #424678
Keep in mind that a school might get shot up once every 500-1000 years.

Well fret not Roy in between school shootings we still have Vegas and Orlando mass killings with AR-15’s and such. In fact while so far in 2018 there has been 34 victims of mass killings at schools there has been over 2,000 gun related deaths not including suicides. But hey its people that kill right. But not teachers…right? Or students…right?

Then again shots fired at schools don’t make the national news, despite what the NRA keeping trying to get us to believe, unless the numbers are there to make it a national story.

Okay okay, some of these shootings were in the parking lot and one was a suicide and most were at colleges! They seem to happen in states that have open carry laws on college campuses. If college aged kids are shooting at one another why would we think the answer is to arm high school kids?

Roy all the failures that led to Parkland! As if Parkland was the first school shooting ever? 11 so far this year not all mass killings but hey please explain how your student Christian militia reacts to these other incidents.

Wow did you guys hear Trump calling the “good guy with a gun” a coward, Trump , Mr. 14 deferments calling a cop a coward for not entering a school with a handgun to stop an assault rifle! Y’all must be conflicted over that.

It does bring up another point though. A trained police officer at the school at the time of the shooting stood in a defensive position, just like the Columbine shootings, until the shooter left he scene. He did call in for back up and described the shooter. An experienced police officer chose not to enter the freshman building whilst gun fire was ongoing. Yet we are now expecting a teacher with a wee bit of training or a group of students with a wee bit of training to step into the line of fire and stop the shooter. Hah on teacher pay! or for free or so they won’t be called a coward by Trump while he is in his gun free zone with armed military guarding him.

So why not drones guys. If we are going to train teachers or students why not armed drones? remotely controlled by trained drone operators. Kept at the school.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 23, 2018 2:54 PM
Comment #424679

So the east end team is shooting west and the west end team is shooting east both at the shooter…hmmm… what could go wrong?

Posted by: j2t2 at February 23, 2018 2:56 PM
Comment #424680

Roy, thinking back to my high school days, and the high school days of my kids, is exactly why I don’t like the idea. I wouldn’t want any of those kids to be armed in school.

Having the initiative and courage to engage is only part of the equation. They must also have the intelligence, and the competence, to act in a safe and effective manner. Not just in an active shooter situation, but also boring day to day life.

“Being in the program for two years seems sufficient to me.”

That’s not how it works in high school, Roy.
First, with graduation, moving and simply quitting because the needed training interferes with personal life, there will be a turnover rate of 50+%.
Second, it’s not two years of training and experience. It’s two years of schooling, trying to get into a college, playing sports, music, math club, drama club, science club, hanging with friends, chasing chicks. THEN it’s a few hours a week for training.
You wouldn’t get the cream of the crop, Roy, and that is the ONLY thing you can accept into such a program.

I agree that it is all commonsense stuff, but it could only work in a perfect world and the youth of 2018 are as far from perfect as we have ever seen.

I’m not discounting the idea or the thought you have put into it, Roy. It’s an interesting starting point and I’m glad you are open to questions and advice.

Posted by: kctim at February 23, 2018 2:57 PM
Comment #424681


This is where I would start. This is as relevant today as when it was written. Mindset is crucial, and I would have teachers, as well as student read this.

Posted by: dbs at February 23, 2018 4:01 PM
Comment #424682

Enjoyed reading what the armchair Eisenhowers had to say. Quite humorous. One thing is for sure, some of the best of plans rarely survive initiation.

One thing I do know from experience is, not only encounters with firearms but in other unforeseen situations, if you don’t have the training, the muscle memory, in a situation you will not react. Surprise is deadly. Its availability and use in tactical situation is highly prized. People on the offense will go out of their way to gain the element of surprise.

Teachers and students with weapons won’t even think of the weapon if they aren’t trained to. The element of surprise against an untrained carrier is the same as no weapon at all.

There is no way in hell I would join a team going on offense. Barricades, locked doors, bullet proof glass, drills, such as the one seen on the recent video being circulated, would be very effective if there was also defensive weapons available. Given the time to lock doors and barricade, there would also be time to acquire and position the weapon to be most effective if the shooter gains entry into the room. I would never exit the room. I would fortify it like in the video and gain the element of surprise against the shooter.

We also shouldn’t worry about police arriving and mistaking an innocent carrier as a shooter. The object of this is to end the situation as quickly as possible. Arriving police should assume the classrooms are armed and barricaded if the shooter is still active. Remember, armed classrooms change the situation. Arriving police would be responsible for what they do best, cleaning up and documenting the mess after the fact.

That’s my opinion from General Armchair Willie.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 23, 2018 5:48 PM
Comment #424684

‘He Shot Through The Walls’

Posted by: ohrealy at February 23, 2018 7:04 PM
Comment #424688

Schools are too big.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 23, 2018 9:50 PM
Comment #424740

There was a cop who called into the Rush Limbaugh show and gave one of the greatest ideas I have ever heard. So simple and virtually doesn’t cost anything. I can’t remember the town, but Rush’s archives could be easily checked. The cop said their police station was running out of space, so they established satellite police stations in the schools. It provided a continued police presence in the schools of uniformed police carrying side arms. The police were in and out all day. It provided armed protection and the police presence eliminated the gun free zone that shooters are looking for. I can see unlimited benefits to a program like this and could be done in cities or rural schools.

Posted by: Blaine at February 24, 2018 8:52 AM
Comment #424754

WW kctim blaine

These are the type armchair experts we’re up against on the left. This elicited an immediate face palm

Posted by: dbs at February 24, 2018 10:31 AM
Comment #424755

Democratics are like tired 4 year old children making up excuses why they shouldn’t go to bed.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 24, 2018 12:15 PM
Comment #424781

The best advice President Trump could give the nation would be to encourage k-12 weapons training to make personal arms normal. The NRA has produced training material for all age groups.

The practice of weapons training was “normal” in the past. A weapon should be as necessary as water, because without either you have neither.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 25, 2018 6:04 PM
Comment #424794

Can dogs be trained to smell firearms? Just a thought.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 26, 2018 11:01 AM
Comment #424800

Seems like the world is in limbo right now, waiting on the next ‘significant event’ to happen.

Will Syria ceasefire? What will Trump decide on NK? What will be done to protect students? What will happen with DACA and the wall? And so on …

Well, I am pretty well yerked that nobody, NOBODY in high places or media has introduced the idea of using drones to protect students in the classroom. Therefore, I can only deduce ? that it’s widely known in high tech circles that drones can’t do the job.

But, until I read or hear that somewhere I will keep bloggin away on he subject. I called the local newspaper this morn and suggested they do an article on drones. I think the use of drones should be discussed in concert with other options that are holding sway in gov’t. Not a word was said about drones at the WH governors meeting this morning.

Why wouldn’t police be using drones to ‘run down the bad guy’ and hold him at gunpoint til they get there? Go into dangerous scenarios to cuff and stuff folks? The drone could inject them, gas them, electric shock them, read them their miranda rights, and so on …

Florida is starting out with a $500M program to put armed marshalls in their schools. What a waste of human and fiscal resources, waiting on an event that is likely to happen once every 1000 years.

Start now with drones and see where that goes in 25-50 years. I suppose by then folks will have a microchip of sorts in their head tuned to an information channel for loading the mind with the latest math, intel commensurate with their needs, security level, and so on …

Until we know drones can’t do the job we should talk it up, IMO.

WW, yes, we are all aware that dogs can be trained to sniff out anything, ANYTHING.

Also, I don’t have a problem with the Pres recommending arms training for k12, so long as it is not mandatory, rewarded, and so on, in any way.

Posted by: Roy D Ellis at February 26, 2018 3:18 PM
Comment #424817

Dogs could be an early warning system. They cost next to nothing to maintain. We shouldn’t discount anything that could help. If it works why shouldn’t it be rewarded.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 26, 2018 10:34 PM
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