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Comment #417424

Good post Weary.

At good start in fixing the problems with public education would be elimination of the National Department of Education. Attempts to standardize learning has failed. The individual states will do the job much better.

Teacher Unions need to be eliminated (No Teacher Unions in Texas) or changed as they have been in Wisconsin.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 17, 2017 1:39 PM
Comment #417434

DeVos was crucified in hearings because she could not answer questions about what would happen, in terms of segregation and discrimination, without federal government protection of public education and civil liberties. She froze. She kept repeating the same stupid lines about letting states take care of it.

If we know the first thing about Washington and Hamilton and the Federalists then we know they promoted a strong central federal government as the best possible guarantor of our liberties. They were right. Subsequent events proved it.

Posted by: phx8 at June 17, 2017 5:31 PM
Comment #417437

phx8 talks about Washington and Hamilton as if he actually knows anything, it’s kind of cute…

Yes, Hamilton and Washington wanted a strong-ER federal government than the Articles of Confederation had. And Hamilton was a monarchist who wanted a king in charge of the America. But Hamilton’s views did not win the day and they were not shared by Washington or many of the other Federalists at that level. The enlightenment was the ideology that won out when crafting the Constitution.

And I think if Hamilton had saw how the US was running today he would be aghast. Even King George who the Americans rebelled from wasn’t as tyrannical as we have allowed government to become, and progressives want even more authoritarian control.

That idea was to give the federal government the power to protect an INDIVIDUAL’s rights. And that’s it. Period. That is why the Constitution was a document tightly limiting the powers of the federal government, not a list of what protections the people maintained against a government that could do whatever it wanted. It’s why many people felt the Bill or Rights was not necessary, not because the citizens didn’t retain those rights but the fear that if they wrote some of them down, people one day would try to argue that they were an exhaustive list. And the Bill of Rights wouldn’t have been ratified if it weren’t for the inclusion of the 9th and 10th amendments, a compromise Madison made, to ensure that we would know this. But today, most people ignore those who amendments and act like they don’t exist. Bork once called the 9th amendment an ‘ink blot’ to be ignored when determining if something was constitutional. Ironically, it was the 9th amendment that gave us Roe v Wade, but the left still wants to ignore it exists.

Madison said when introducing the 9th amendment (passed almost unanimously and with little change)

“It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution [the Ninth Amendment].

The United States trucked along without a Department of Education for 198 years. It was only created in 1974 and our educational system has steadily declined since it was created. Individual rights can be protected without the Department of Education, I’m not sure why people suggest otherwise.

Posted by: Rhinehold at June 17, 2017 5:56 PM
Comment #417438

The “Federalist Papers” were written by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay to promote the ratification of the United States Constitution. As phx8 knows, or should know, the Constitution gives the Federal government limited power with all remaining power delegated to the individual states.

I have a copy on my Kindle and refer to them often phxi.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 17, 2017 6:12 PM
Comment #417439

Rhinehold,
” And Hamilton was a monarchist who wanted a king in charge of the America.”

100% false. This was a common charge leveled against Hamilton by his peers representing the slave states. They objected to Hamilton’s view of America. Hamilton favored manufacturing over agriculture, Hamilton never owned slaves, he was an immigrant without reputable parents, and he was an autodidact who worked his way up from the bottom and, through the power of an incredible mind, foresaw and created the financial structures that came to pass, and worked. Hardly an elitist. Hardly a monarchist.

His detractors considered him an elitist because he favored the British over the French, especially in matters concerning the French Revolution. It took his detractors quite a while to realize the French Revolution would become a bloodbath.

Washington followed Hamilton almost without exception. Washington was not a great thinker. He was, however, a great leader. Together, they recognized the need for a standing army, a manufacturing base, and a strong national currency. The brilliant use of debt based upon a solid currency turned the US into one of the most powerful economies on the planet.

“And I think if Hamilton had saw how the US was running today he would be aghast.”

I think he would applaud. Much of what he advocated came to pass, and worked. Must of what he opposed, such as the support of states rights in the name of slavery, caused terrible destruction, even to this day.

Education is not a topic the Constitution deals with very well. The concept of public education did not even exist until decades later, never mind the idea of educating women, blacks, and others. The Founding Fathers just didn’t know it was possible, or how well it would work.

RF,
The Federalist Papers were written almost entirely by Hamilton and Madison. Madison changed a great deal as the years went by. He was a Virginian and a slave owner, and later this colored his thinking in a very negative way.

Posted by: phx8 at June 17, 2017 6:30 PM
Comment #417440

So sad that all phx8 chooses to write about Madison was that he was a Virginian and a slave owner. Pitiful.

Madison also founded the American Colonization Society, an organization dedicated to returning slaves to Africa, in 1816 along with Robert Finley, James Monroe and Andrew Jackson.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 17, 2017 6:45 PM
Comment #417442

Can any of my Pals on the Left explain the advantage to students for teachers to have a union? Are unions helping students get a better education? Do unions promote better teaching and teachers?

How?

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 17, 2017 6:57 PM
Comment #417472

Sure Royal. Students benefit when the teachers are paid enough to not have to work a second job and can devote their attention to their teaching.

But thanks for bringing up the real issue Royal. SO many conservatives hide behind the “choice” line instead of admitting it is the unions they want to break up.

Teacher Unions need to be eliminated (No Teacher Unions in Texas) or changed as they have been in Wisconsin.

According to this link Texas doesn’t seem to be the answer to the problem Royal. Getting rid of unions only serves your ideology it seems.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2015/2015-state-report-cards-map.html

Posted by: j2t2 at June 20, 2017 10:18 PM
Comment #417487

“Students benefit when the teachers are paid enough to not have to work a second job and can devote their attention to their teaching.”

Can j1t2 provide us with numbers of teachers working a second job while also teaching?

My wife spent 33 years teaching in public schools and never worked a second job, even when school was in summer recess. She used her summer time to go back to school and finished with a Masters.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 21, 2017 6:05 PM
Comment #417489
My wife spent 33 years teaching in public schools and never worked a second job, even when school was in summer recess.

How typical of Riyal to give us an example from a couple of decades ago and think it is relevant today. Back then Royal your wife and countless other Americans didn’t have to work two jobs but what does that have to do with the stagnant wages of today.

Conservatives keep cutting taxes because they would have us believe teachers are over paid.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/public-school-teachers-are-overpaid-heritageaei-study-finds

Posted by: j2t2 at June 21, 2017 7:38 PM
Comment #417490

How typical (and stupid) of j2t2 to pretend to have knowledge of when my wife retired from active teaching.

We are all waiting for him to provide us with facts regarding how many teachers today work a second job during the school term.

We wonder if j2t2 and his Pals on the Left even understand why wages are stagnant among some public service job-holders at various times. For them, wages can be legislated at will with no regard for who pays them.

The Unions have nearly bankrupted the state of Illinois. It can no longer even pay for necessary needs. Politicians in that state remained in office by promising ever more in benefits and could have cared less how those benefits would be funded.

The fat is in the fire in Illinois and I don’t doubt the politicians in that state will come whining to Washington for a bail-out. Fu*k them!

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 21, 2017 7:47 PM
Comment #417492

Your wife was a teacher for 33 years and you’re against unions? I’ve got news for you… unions are the reason there is job security for teachers. It’s one of the few small perks of being a teacher.

I know several teachers with PhD’s from Ivy league schools who can only find work part time for a little over minimum wage. They’re hired as adjuncts instead of full time so that union benefits don’t apply and they can be paid next to nothing. They all work other jobs to make ends meet.

And as far as Illinois troubles go - Illinois is paying 11 million dollars a day because their Republican governor refuses to come up with a budget. And unions didn’t bankrupt Illinois, spending more money than it took in without paying a dime toward pensions, etc. for three decades did that.

Posted by: Max at June 21, 2017 11:17 PM
Comment #417511

Max, teacher unions do nothing for students. They function solely for the benefit of teachers. A few years ago the teacher of the year in California was laid off as she lacked seniority. Tell us what wonderful things teacher unions do for students when seniority…not competence rules.

Blaming the Republican governor of Illinois for their financial woes is insane. Read just a little history of the politics in Illinois and then we can talk.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 22, 2017 6:00 PM
Comment #417558
How typical (and stupid) of j2t2 to pretend to have knowledge of when my wife retired from active teaching.

How typical (and infantile) of Royal to throw out the strawman about when his wife retired. I never mentioned anything about retiring Royal. You put out the 33 years figure which is well over the couple of decades I mentioned in my previous post. This deflection is so Royal, why not speak to the real issue with some facts of your own.

We are all waiting for him to provide us with facts regarding how many teachers today work a second job during the school term.

Wait no more Royal.

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2011/05/62-percent-of-american-teachers-work.html

The Unions have nearly bankrupted the state of Illinois. It can no longer even pay for necessary needs. Politicians in that state remained in office by promising ever more in benefits and could have cared less how those benefits would be funded.

How typical of Royal blaming the teachers and their union for the problems caused by years of bad management on the part of the state. The conservatives inability to use logic and reasoning never fails to amaze me, I often wonder if this is intentional, what do you think Royal?

Did the teacher union just hand the state of Illinois a note whilst pointing a gun at them and said “you now owe us billions” or did the state intentionally under fund their obligations for many years?

Posted by: j2t2 at June 23, 2017 9:17 PM
Comment #417560

Royal I took the liberty of addressing this comment over here in the thread on education.

The education of children takes precedence over job security for adults.

Why shouldn’t both have their places Royal. The teacher and their family may be expected to live in the streets and grovel for food in your world but then you make it sound as if the two choices cannot be mutually beneficial.

I especially like this quote from the national review, as devoid of logic as it is. “If numerous patients die because of medical malpractice, a doctor’s license will be revoked. If politicians do not fulfill promises, voters can remove them from office. Schools should be able to remove incompetent teachers.”

IMHO a better analogy would be “If numerous patients die because of medical malpractice, we should fire the nurse and the receptionist. Or better yet from the link in my previous comment “WHEN we don’t get the results we want in our military endeavors, we don’t blame the soldiers. We don’t say, “It’s these lazy soldiers and their bloated benefits plans! That’s why we haven’t done better in Afghanistan!” No, if the results aren’t there, we blame the planners. We blame the generals, the secretary of defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff. No one contemplates blaming the men and women fighting every day in the trenches for little pay and scant recognition.”


Teachers are stuck in the middle aren’t they Royal. The schoolbooks are picked by some real losers in Texas and forced upon the rest of the country. The Board of Education directs “what when why and where”. We have adopted a teach to the test mentality that forces teachers to do just that with little room for anything else. The parents are fighting over their religious beliefs and anything else they can think of. Parents are both working longer hours and have little time to support the kids anymore. Yet it is the teachers fault when the kids don’t ace the test!

Conservatives have been attacking the school system since the 80’s trying to get rid of unions and get God involved at each and every school. The list of problems at some schools are much worse than what I have described yet it is the teachers fault.

In California, only 22 teachers were dismissed for unsatisfactory performance in the period 2003–13. This means that only 0.0008 percent of California’s 277,000 teachers are fired each year despite lackluster educational outcomes.

Who says the outcomes are lackluster, by what standard? But I guess the important question is why is this number so bad? I mean who says the percentage of incompetent teachers is 10 or 50 percent? I wonder what the outcome would be in conservative utopia were the schools to rid themselves of 10 percent of teachers every year for incompetence. Under conservative logic that would mean the kids would be smarter and do well on standardized tests. Unfortunately in the real world it would just mean either a shortage of teachers or those deemed “incompetent” would be teaching at other schools. So how does this help the kids?

The education system in this country has problems Royal but you don’t have the answers my friend. Your answer is a clusterf**k of ideological political beliefs and nonsense that have little good for the children either.

Posted by: j2t2 at June 23, 2017 11:14 PM
Comment #417634

Really great topic

Posted by: kammz7 at June 27, 2017 4:42 AM
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