Third Party & Independents Archives

A Re-Think for Donald and for Jeb

The debate really was great. It’s good to keep that in mind when digesting the latest reality-show-snipes between candidates. And as usual, Trump is involved. And as usual, it’s because Donald Trump does not take kindly to criticism. So this time, it’s Carly Fiorina - who has justifiably surged to 4th in the latest polls on the back of her tough, smart, and fluid performance in the kids table debate. Carly was also justifiably offended by Trump’s ripping into Fox moderator Megyn Kelly, or rather by the way he did it. Trump is downright mean when cornered and while that might work in a tough negotiation behind closed doors, it’s his likely achilles heel in the campaign. He might have issued an apology while also defending his “I don’t have time for political correctness” reply, but he’s still leading and apologizing doesn’t seem to be part of his hard-wiring or even his values. Which is fine by some of his supporters.

The problem is, it's still about Donald in the end, even when Carly surges nearly 10 places. Is the rejection by the base of the establishment that deep rooted? Is the anger that strong? Maybe yes. One still wonders, however, how it helps Trump to go after a fellow entrepreneur who is very much a political outsider as well. For the Donald, it seems to be your scalp and your limbs for an eye. You criticize him and he escalates to nuclear with nothing in between. Again, that might be a very useful attribute in some circumstances and letting people know you're capable of overwhelming retaliation can be an effective deterrent. But a little tempered balance rather than unbalanced temper is also a good thing.

So Trump is likely going to prove that he's not what America needs in the Oval Office even if he continues resonating with a significant percentage of voters. Or, he's going to actually adjust his game and continue to be a force to be reckoned with for months to come, if not the entire campaign. Unlike Jeb who's dropped off the charts and will also need a rethink on his game plan. Before his curious mix of statesmanlike demeanor and professorial-like ability to alienate, relegates him to the edge of the stage. While Carly may just take her place a little closer to center-stage, on the big state, at the next debate.

Posted by AllardK at August 11, 2015 9:21 AM
Comment #397277

By the way- While Carly Fiorina was laying off 30,000 employees, she tripled her own pay. She generally makes the lists of worst CEO’s of all time:

Tobak, Steve (April 27, 2012). “America’s worst CEOs: Where are they now?”. CBS News. Retrieved May 9, 2015.

Maney, Kevin (February 16, 2005). “Can Fiorina trump competition for ‘worst tech CEO’ title?”. USA Today. Retrieved May 9, 2015.

“Portfolio’s Worst American CEOs of All Time”. CNBC LLC ( NBC Universal. 30 Apr 2009. Retrieved 11 May 2015. “Rankings By:”

“In 2008, InfoWorld grouped her with a list of products and ideas as flops, declaring her tenure as CEO of HP to be the sixth worst tech flop of all-time and characterizing her as the “anti-Steve Jobs” for reversing the goodwill of American engineers and alienating existing customers.”

Wikipedia, quoting McAllister, Neil (January 21, 2008). “Tech’s all-time top 25 flops”. Retrieved April 1, 2015.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2015 10:34 AM
Comment #397307

This issue will eventually come up. There’s no way she can defend herself against the HP accusations. No one cares that HP is still in business, they only hear the negatives associated with saving a business as large as HP.

Posted by: Weary Willie at August 11, 2015 5:53 PM
Comment #397310

Do you think she looks like Margaret Thatcher?

Posted by: Weary Willie at August 11, 2015 6:09 PM
Comment #397326

HP stock went UP 7% when Fiorina announced her resignation. Of course HP is still in business. It is still in business despite Fiorina, not because of her. Financial markets delivered their judgment in dollars and cents. It was not an ideological or political thing. Fiorina was a financial disaster.

While laying off 30,000 people she tripled her own pay!

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2015 12:11 PM
Comment #397333

Her tenure was marked by a 56% decrease in value. The industry in general took a 51% hit at the same time. Is she being dinged for a 56% loss or a 5% greater loss than the industry average?

Posted by: Weary Willie at August 12, 2015 1:07 PM
Comment #397335

“… the company underperformed by a number of metrics: there were no gains in HP’s net income despite a 70% gain in net income of the S&P 500 over this period;[62] the company’s debt rose from ~4.25 billion USD to ~6.75 billion USD;[62] and stock price fell by 50%, exceeding declines in the S&P 500 Information Technology Sector index and the NASDAQ.[62][64] In contrast, stock prices for IBM and Dell fell 27.5% and 3% respectively, during this time period.”

There’s just no sugar coating this. If Fiorina ever gets on the same stage as Trump she is going to get destroyed.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2015 1:35 PM
Comment #397340

Weary, if you haven’t already, go to the Wiki link Phx8 used and you will clearly see that this ALL about politics.

I’m no fan of hers, but I will take the words of her peers over the opinions of disgruntled workers and ‘tech’ magazines, any day.

Posted by: kctim at August 12, 2015 3:07 PM
Comment #397342

Disgruntled workers? Hah! The founders of HP despised her. I’m guessing the 30,000 people who she laid off didn’t like her much either. And remember, while laying those people off, she TRIPLED her own pay! Her tenure ended when the Board fire her.

By all means, pretend she did a great job. Let’s discuss why a CEO who lays off 30,000 workers while simultaneously tripling her own pay is a good candidate for president.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2015 3:35 PM
Comment #397343

Yes Phx8, she had to work with a hostile board of directors and still doubled revenue and “created the world’s largest personal computer manufacturer by units shipped.”
Terrible man, just terrible. LOL

I’m not pretending that she did a good job, or a bad job. I am just choosing to trust the words of her peers and the accolades of Forbes, Fortune and Time, more than the words of disgruntled employees and something called ‘InfoWorld.’

“Let’s discuss why a CEO who lays off 30,000 workers while simultaneously tripling her own pay is a good candidate for president.”

“Carly Fiorina positioned HP for success … Today, HP is a stronger company because of Carly Fiorina’s bold action.”
- Intel chairman Craig Barrett

I don’t think she is all that great of a candidate for president, but that doesn’t sound like the total failure you are trying so hard to make her out to be.

Posted by: kctim at August 12, 2015 3:59 PM
Comment #397361

Doubling revenues and shipping more PC’s by merging doesn’t necessarily help. It’s like that old “I Love Lucy” show where Lucy is loosing five cents a jar, and concludes she had better ship more jars to make up for the losses. Careful about statistics!

Posted by: phx8 at August 13, 2015 12:58 AM
Comment #397367

The Tech Bubble burst and she took risks while most others hibernated. What she did was definitely done with the long term in mind. Her actions are why HP is still a player today.
Call it luck, or keep highlighting the rough spots to ignore the results all you want, the fact is that HP is a stronger and better company today.

Admit it man, this isn’t about results, it’s about her ability to trim the fat in order to achieve those results.

Posted by: kctim at August 13, 2015 9:21 AM
Comment #397375

Maybe phx8 is a sexist. Probably not, but a strong woman in the race against Hillbilly won’t turn out good for Democratics. Anybody in the race against Hillbilly won’t turn out good for Democratics.

Carly Fiorina won’t get the nomination, but she will bring a different point of view to the election. I’m looking forward to hearing what she has to say and who she supports in the long run.

Posted by: Weary Willie at August 13, 2015 10:20 AM
Comment #397376

HP underperformed the other stocks in its sector during the bust by a significant margin. The sector declined 26% while HP declined more than 50%.

Recovering from someone who made bad decisions and was a bad manager- and we haven’t even started talking about what Fiorina did to the corporate culture- recovering does not mean the person who drove it down did a good thing.

“Carly Fiorina won’t get the nomination…” We’ve already spent more time on Fiorina than its worth. She will be kept around precisely because she is a woman. FOX pushed her hard after the debates, enough to keep her in another few months.

Posted by: phx8 at August 13, 2015 11:28 AM
Comment #397382

It could also be said Clinton is being kept around because she is a woman. It’s already been said to criticize her is sexist. There’s a list of words she won’t tolorate if used to describe her. Most of them were considered sexist and demeaning.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why the Democratic party insists she be the next nominee. I always joke, with sarcasm, how “fresh and new” Clinton is!

Posted by: Weary Willie at August 13, 2015 1:30 PM
Comment #397386

“Carly Fiorina positioned HP for success … Today, HP is a stronger company because of Carly Fiorina’s bold action.”
- Intel chairman Craig Barrett


HP is recovering from what Fiorina did.
- Extremely partisan WatchBlog contributor, Phx8

Sorry my friend, but as I said before, I will stick to believing those who actually know and understand how things work and with no political axe to grind.

Posted by: kctim at August 13, 2015 2:31 PM
Comment #397387

There’s nothing partisan about the judgments of the markets. The announcement of her firing by the Board resulted in a 7% jump in the value of the stock- that is, $3 billion in one day!

Claiming HP is stronger today because of her “bold action” is like saying the US is stronger today because of Bush’s “bold action.” If you want to claim Fiorina made things really good once she was gone by making them so bad while she was there, well, be my guest.

Posted by: phx8 at August 13, 2015 2:42 PM
Comment #397415

I’m not making any claim, Phx8, Intel chairman Craig Barrett is. Why should I believe your opinion over his?

Posted by: kctim at August 13, 2015 4:23 PM
Comment #397435


While some may defend the long term results of the merger of H-P and Compaq, the general consensus is that the tenure of Carly Fiorina at H-P was a disaster. It is not just some isolated malcontents. She has made the lists of worst CEOs of all time. See for example,

When Fiorina was fired by the H-P board, they cited her management style as the principal reason not simply the lagging corporate performance. She literally destroyed the morale of its employees with her layoffs, outsourcing and self aggrandizing, imperious style. The collegial “H-P Way” of its fabled founders was discarded for the top down, my way or the highway, style of Fiorina.

Posted by: Rich at August 13, 2015 7:46 PM
Comment #397447


The ‘some’ speaking about her work are leaders in the business, the ‘general consensus’ seem to be pundits.
I have no skin in the game when it comes to her as a candidate, perhaps that’s why I can accept the experts views on the situation.

Change always affects morale one way or another. Business is business. What I do find interesting though, is that the more I read about this, the more it looks like HP board hired her to do what they didn’t have the ba11s to do and then came in to ‘save’ everybody when she was done.

Posted by: kctim at August 14, 2015 10:43 AM
Comment #397448

We must consider what would have happened if Fiorina wasn’t at the helm. What’s more important is all the jobs she saved!

Carly Fiorina should have pictures taken with halos around her head and she should be put on a pedistal with adoring fans fainting in the crowds because of the jobs she saved.

We’re looking at this all wrong! It’s not about the condition of HP now, it’s about what shape it could have been in if she didn’t do what she did!

Posted by: Weary Willie at August 14, 2015 10:46 AM
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