Third Party & Independents Archives

Thanks to the Iran Deal, the Middle East Is Now M.a.D.

Israel’s nuclear ambiguity is no longer a sustainable policy, thanks to the Iran deal. The so-called “bomb in the basement” needs to be brought above ground, both metaphorically and literally, and Iran has to know the consequences of any action it may take at some point in the future against the state of Israel. That’s where Israel, it’s leaders, and it’s people now find themselves thanks to the Obama administration and it’s partners in the recently announced deal to ease sanctions and provide some sort of control over Iran’s nuclear program. The Middle East is now entering a period of Mutually Assured Destruction, and the cold-war nuclear strategists can dust off their resumes and text books and find a whole new career advising Israel how to ensure it’s presumably newly visible nuclear arsenal will provide ex-ante rather than ex-post deterrence. As, for example, Professor Beres and Admiral Edney (both retired) have done in an article in US News.

There is a problem which at least they have the courtesy of mentioning. Iran is no Soviet Union. So cobbling together a nuclear deterrent strategy is far different when dealing with Shiite fanatics who may harbor end-of-times apocalyptic scenarios. How does a small state surrounded by enemies rationally plan how to defend itself against a cabal of crazies who may now have nuclear weapons within a decade? And in which the international community is mostly balanced between offended neutrality and outright hostility in terms of how they view Israel itself? Sunni Saudi Arabia even issued a warning about Iran using the economic windfall that unfrozen funds represent to "cause turmoil in the region" rather than help improve the lives of its own citizens. Hezbollah and Hamas must be putting together shopping lists of weapons that would make anyone seriously interested in the stability of the Middle East shudder.

To say that Obama and Bibi do not like each other is an understatement: Netanyahu's speech in Congress back in March apparently had the President foaming at the mouth. And maybe the Israel leader's tactics were not the most helpful. But this goes far beyond manners and delves deeply into the substance of what Israel and the Middle East are or should be. Obama sat down at the table with a criminal state that sponsors terrorism around the world and gave away a good part of the house. All in the hope that the criminal state will start behaving lawfully, and not develop nuclear weapons. In fact, they didn't even demand an end to Iranian-sponsored terrorism as part of these negotiations. Can you blame Bibi for desperately reaching out to those in Congress who share his fears for the future of the nation of which he is leader, and for the stability of the Middle East? It's the least he could have done.

Posted by AllardK at July 15, 2015 7:22 PM
Comment #396575

I can blame Bibi,for his extremism, short sightedness and arrogance. He was re-elected with these BS shenanigans so I can also blame Israel citizens who voted for him.

This politics as usual reaction by the conservatives, both in Congress and the propaganda machine, is just so much whining. The negotiations were very specific,they entailed nuclear weapons only. Why does that mean it is game over Keeley? Why the hysterics from the right wing? Are they really so short sighted they cannot see the big picture? This is but one piece of the puzzle not the whole game for crying out loud, you guys want freedom and liberty but only for yourselves. The difference between our extremist Christians and Iran Muslims extremist is a matter of degrees. That and our Constitution that doesn’t give them the authority to force the issue as the extremist Muslims are allowed to do.

The players in the middle east need to come to the table or blow themselves up. It is that simple. Call their bluff or let their god lead them to the kool aid. But keep out of it. We have spent enough helping Israel only to be rewarded with the arrogance of the spoiled teenager who goes to Mom the first time Dad says no. They may be the only democracy in the middle east but with friends like that who needs enemies.

Bibi needs to work to solve the problems or use his own people and weapons to force his will on the middle east. It’s easy to be the aggressor the big talker when you can call in the Americans to do your dirty work, lets let Bibi do the heavy lifting for a change. As long as we back his moves no one comes to the table and with good reason, Israel wants the conflict. Just like the conservatives in this country he needs to get real.

Posted by: j2t2 at July 15, 2015 10:44 PM
Comment #396576

Sorry Allard, I said Keely but meany Allard.

Posted by: j2t2 at July 15, 2015 10:45 PM
Comment #396611

Difficult to determine which j2t2 hates more, Christians or Jews.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 16, 2015 3:05 PM
Comment #396619

If Iran or anyone else was serious about wiping out Israel they would have deployed a biological agent a long time ago. It’s cheaper, more certain, easier to conceal, and it cannot be shot down by anti-ballistic missiles.

Furthermore, once detonated, an atomic weapon can be traced back to its source with complete certainty. The composition of the weapon is impossible to hide, and each country’s nukes have their own unique signature. It is virtually impossible to hide the origin, so the whole idea that Iran (or more likely, Pakistan, which actually has nuclear weapons) would give nukes to terrorists as a way to hide their hand and establish plausible deniability is, quite simply, not plausible.

There is one, and only one, reason conservatives oppose this treaty, and it is based on partisanship, pure and simple. Obama must be denied success in all cases, even if it might harm the United States. Our allies- that is, our REAL allies, such as Britain, France, & Germany- respect Obama and his leadership, and dismiss the GOP as a weird mystery. Our other negotiating partners like China and Russia also respect and support Obama on this treaty because they share the same goal of non-proliferation with us.

Israel’s goal remains the same- to split the US from its allies, and make it the US and Israel against the world.

And that is not the kind of goal any true ally would promote.

Posted by: phx8 at July 16, 2015 5:09 PM
Comment #396632

Jesus Phx8, you and J2 have really jumped the shark these last 7 years.

Posted by: kctim at July 17, 2015 9:14 AM
Comment #396634

Gotta give it to em’. They certainly cannot come up with any original thought. The only thing original with them is they will argue over who was the originator.

phx8 and j2t2 have been reading and listening to a world view of ISIS and the middle east on their program to destroy Israel and the United States. I would put their output as propaganda for Americans wanting to enlist with ISIS and other groups who are hell bent on destruction which is theirs I hope.

I agree with your quip that who does he hate the worse, or even himself

If you think things are tough now give it another 90 days and you will be so busy spewing forth that you will not know the right from the left nor the center and I do not necessarily mean political.

Posted by: tom humes at July 17, 2015 3:25 PM
Comment #396638
Difficult to determine which j2t2 hates more, Christians or Jews.

Well rest assured Royal your guess would be wrong. You see I don’t hate either group. Nor do I hate any other religious group. I would suggest your problem is an inability to reason and think for yourself. How long must we see the conflict in the middle east continue without change? Our wars in the middle east have only served to make more wars cost more in money and lives and for what, to protect a country that is part of the problem?

If you guys on the right had a brain you would stop taking Israeli money for political gain and look at the bigger picture. That is asking a lot but I think you can do it.

Yes they are the only democracy in the middle east but they to have seemed to turn into an extremist oligarchy bent on eradicating a minority group themselves. We help them to do so. If we stop protecting them one day they will have to go to the table and come up with a real solution.

So that is why I say let all these guys have at it. Either they accept the responsibility and govern effectively or their God leads them to the cool aid. It won’t happen as long as you guys accept bribes from Israel and turn around and Cotton things up as a pay off for the blood money.

Posted by: j2t2 at July 17, 2015 7:56 PM
Comment #396639
phx8 and j2t2 have been reading and listening to a world view of ISIS and the middle east on their program to destroy Israel and the United States. I would put their output as propaganda for Americans wanting to enlist with ISIS and other groups who are hell bent on destruction which is theirs I hope.

Tom are you blinded by hatred to the point you cannot use any judgement what so ever? This twisting of reality you have spewed is a new low for you. Now I hate me along with Christians and Jews! Have you ever made a statement more foolish in your life.

You do realize Iran is also fighting ISIS, right? Have you ever heard the statement “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”? Just try to think on it for a minute before you respond. I am going to ask you to try hard to answer intelligently, unlike your usual comments, so stop and think.

First of all Tom the issue is an agreement with Iran by 6 nations acting as part of the UN. Your side has started the usual whining, because it is Obama, that the world is gonna end because of this. Yet your team didn’t do half as well when they were at the plate. DO you see how foolish that makes you guys look when you whine like babies that something may have been accomplished?

We have,as a country, for years now involved ourselves in these religious wars in the middle east. Yet the only thing we have to show for it is more religious wars. Why do we not want to raise the level of stupidity just a tiny bit after all these years? (Why do you back who ever bribes our representatives in Congress without thinking about what the bribes cost us as a nation?) Now I suppose you are gonna tell me it is for “Liberty and Freedom” but after all the fighting who has more “Liberty and Freedom” in the middle east? We are talking about an extremist oligarchy, a few theocracies and some kingdoms for crying out loud. How many times do we repeat the same mistakes, get the same results and yet expect something different to happen?

The best thing we can do is put all these countries to the test. Step back and and let them learn to solve their own problems, our interference has done nothing!You guys are whining that Iran is gonna nuke us any day now despite that being just so much bulls**t. Based upon the real world there has been only one nation that has ever nuked another. Yet all these other nation have nukes. Once these countries have them they have to grow up and accept the responsibility that comes with the power. If the answer to the problem, based upon the decision of the countries in the middle east is to nuke one another then so be it, I would suggest they all back down when given the opportunity. We need to let them have the opportunity. Lets focus on disarming Israels nukes or give nukes to Iran and the Saudis.

Posted by: j2t2 at July 17, 2015 8:29 PM
Comment #396640

Could be the current admin is working to help Iran acquire the bomb. Much like the Regan admin did in helping Pakistan get Nukes.

Russia helped China. China helped Pakistan and N. Korea. Seems the ideologs can’t control their desires to mold the world to their liking, at the moment.

There is money to be made in the nuke business. If Iran gets the bomb then most of the ME countries will spend big, and seek help, to get their bomb.

Do you think our Corpocratic gov’t might want to help them out too?

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at July 18, 2015 3:39 PM
Comment #396641

Posted by: roy ellis at July 18, 2015 3:40 PM
Comment #396643

From WIKI: “Barlow brought a legal action for wrongful dismissal that received considerable attention, including from the United States Congress, where he was defended by Paul Wolfowitz, who said “there have been times on that issue when I specifically sensed that people thought we could somehow construct a policy on a house of cards that the Congress wouldn’t know what the Pakistanis were doing” and that the retaliation Barlow had faced was “wrong”.

Following congressionally ordered investigations, the inspector-general at the State Department concluded that Barlow had been fired as a reprisal; however, the inspector-generals at the CIA and the Defense Department stated that the Pentagon was within its rights to fire Barlow. A final investigation by Congress’ own Government Accountability Office was completed in 1997 and “largely vindicated” Barlow, who had his security clearance restored.[1] During the investigation, the State department inspector-general, Sherman Funk, described Barlow as “one of the most brilliant analysts I’ve ever seen”.[6]

The activities of the Defense Department officials, however, including Cheney, Libby, Wolfowitz and Hadley, were never investigated. Rep. Stephen Solarz, a major player in counter-proliferation, told Seymour Hersh for the latter’s famous exposé of the Pakistani nuclear program that “If what Barlow says is true, this would have been a major scandal of Iran-Contra proportions, and the officials involved would have had to resign”.[2][6]

Barlow, however, was unable to find employment after his clearance was removed and marriage broke up. “They viciously tried to destroy my life, personally and professionally” he is quoted as saying. “Not just my career, but they went after my marriage, my livelihood, and smeared my name in truly extraordinary ways that no one had ever seen before or since—at least not until the Wilsons were victims of the same people years later.” According to Barlow the allegations included the “fabrication” that he “was an ‘intended’ Congressional spy”, that he was an alcoholic, had not paid his taxes, and was an adulterer. “Then they accused me of being psychotic and used that to invade my marital privacy, including that of my now ex-wife who also worked at the CIA, and sought to destroy my marriage as punishment.”[2]

Although he was found to have breached no national security regulations and was vindicated, Barlow did not receive his government pension and has had trouble finding employment. The authors of The Nuclear Jihadist,{[8] a biography of A.Q. Khan, caused a sensation in 2005 when they revealed that they had tracked him down to a motor home in Montana where he lived with two dogs.[5”“

Posted by: roy ellis at July 18, 2015 3:50 PM
Comment #396659

Ah, the ol evil extremist Zionist oligarchy conspiracy. Does flow with the evil 1% and bankers conspiracy theories, so kudos for being consistent.

Of course, the best part will be the lefts flip-flopping when Hillary is President. She doesn’t hate Israel and will actually treat them respectfully.

Posted by: kctim at July 20, 2015 10:10 AM
Comment #396661

Roy I remember some of the Rich Barlow story and I don’t think you should put three posts worth of stock in his story.

Was he right? Hard to say. I’ve seen F 16’s doing lob bombing at Poinsett and it can be done but that’s not what that system is designed for. That was the best point he could make- that it could be done. History has shown that Pakistan decided on the Mirage and now possibly their new Chinese joint venture instead of the F 16 for nuclear delivery. That might had been different if the rest of the F 16 sales went through during the 90s but they didn’t get the airframes. In the end we made a bunch of money off the Pakistani government by selling them F 16s that we never delivered without much threat to India. And that was probably the goal all along. Was there games being played at DOD on the sales? You betcha. And the CIA, and State, etc. etc. etc.

But the real error Barlow and other whistle blowers make is believing that they are right to the exclusion of all other possibilities. That’s a lesson most people who work with clearances get from their initial training but for some the it doesn’t sink in. Based on “need to know” you must always remember you only have a small fraction of the intelligence pie. Also, if you are going to blow the whistle in the government you don’t go to colleagues and say as such. Instead you call the applicable IG Hotline or go to their local office. Do that and you are golden. Don’t do that and, like Barlow, you are toast…

Posted by: George in SC at July 20, 2015 1:21 PM
Comment #396675

Totally agree, George in SC, that it’s really hard to pin a conspiracy on the Corpocracy.

It’s like this Trump thing. He must be fairly intelligent as he graduated Wharton.

We do know that the insider’s will try to do an end run when given the chance. Nixon and Watergate, Regan and Contra, and so on - - -. Most of the time conspiracies deal with mil intel like trying to whack Castro with an exploding cigar, or two. Folks don’t mind that but, when it deals with things like open borders immigration and the NAU it gets sheeples backs up.

Media says that about 60% of the folks don’t trust their gov’t to do the right thing. Trump’s leading in the polls shows how strongly the base wants some control of immigration. Yet, their own party, McCain for sure, has worked long and hard for amnesty with open borders. We can bounce two ways. One, that McCain/gov’t/corpocracy knows what’s best for us and we should just keep out of it or, two, that it’s a conspiracy against the sheeple. But, why would Trump, at great personal cost, out the party.

Same for this Iran deal. One, we can assume gov’t knows best. Like, maybe there is a super weapon about to come to fruition in ten or so years that will make nukes irrelevant, or, two, the President wants to solidify his ‘make nice with the ME’ legacy.

If what I am hearing is correct, that there is no timely inspection of their nuke sites then it seems like a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Now, the insiders are saying that we have the technology to detect any little change they might implement with their nuke program so we don’t need timely, on-site, physical inspections. Therefore, the sheeple can’t know, fer shure, what the real deal is.

And, now we hear that Walmart is adopting a program to assist business start-ups in the U.S. Now, what kind of a conspiracy is that? It just never ends.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at July 20, 2015 5:21 PM
Comment #396678

I believe the appropriate word roy…is “bamboozled”.

The government reminds me of the wizard in the movie hiding behind a screen and manipulating fear and terror among the supplicants.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 20, 2015 6:13 PM
Comment #396682

Not so much bamboozled, RF, as dismayed.

Like, the GOPcorpocracy is saying they can’t win the election w/o the latino vote. Flat up telling the base that it’s open borders for eternity. Telling us that it’s ‘impossible’ to deport illegals, even as we know they would self-deport if a real E-verify work law was put in place.

And, who made it possible for latino’s to gain control of the voting box over the last 40 years or so? Regancorpocratists and so on - - -

And, how about the drug issue? We are told that drugs are relatively cheap, easy to get, and cause a lot of damage to families and individuals. Most crimes committed can be traced back to illegal drugs.

Drugs come in and money goes out, seemingly unimpeded. It seems we can stop the importation of frogs, some food product, cuban cigars and so on - - - but, “oh, it’s just so impossible to stop drugs at the borders”.

We can watch every isotope of that uranium but we can’t catch them greenbacks.

I propose that the ‘5 year min’ law O’Riley is backing will not pass tomorrow. If it does pass it won’t be enforced. A few hundred people getting knocked off each year doesn’t carry much weight with the corpocracy. The corpocratic moto is ‘just get em in here and let God sort em out’ and so on - - -

Constitution says ‘if you don’t carry out your sworn oath to enforce the law you will be impeached’. But, but, but, who would be left to run the gov’t, and so on - - -

Otherwise, 3rd party and all that - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at July 20, 2015 9:42 PM
Comment #396691

Roy, I switched to Independent some years ago as I realized the GOP was no longer “Grand”.

The Democrats no longer believe in our Democratic Republic so no help there.

A 3rd party might help but I won’t see one with enough clout to elect a majority in congress or president in my lifetime.

We need a Constitutional Convention now.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 21, 2015 12:41 PM
Comment #396708

Agree RF, that we need a CC to set some things right. and are still hammering away at pushing a convention. Albeit a slow process we could address some of the major issues thru a convention.

I noticed that at conventionUSA they adopted a rule to circumvent special interests from interfering in the process.

IMO, any viable 3rd party effort would have to do something similar. Just another 3rd party ain’t going to hack it. There has to be some rules to block special interests money right from the getgo.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at July 21, 2015 3:34 PM
Comment #396710

There has to be some rules to block special interests money right from the getgo.

Otherwise - - -
Posted by: roy ellis at July 21, 2015 3:34 PM


Posted by: Royal Flush at July 21, 2015 3:45 PM
Comment #396715

Whhhoooaa!! Now what do I do, dunno what to say. Somebody on WB agreed with something I posted. I’m so used to whackmolein I have no keystrokes to express myself.

So, I’ll take the easy approach and ask you a question, RF. How would you protect a 3rd party from special interest influence?

Posted by: roy ellis at July 21, 2015 6:12 PM
Comment #396716

roy, time to eat. I will think about that and get back at you later.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 21, 2015 8:02 PM
Comment #396718

You may get your wish for a third party in the person of Donald Trump. He is a billionaire and, whatever else you may say about him, he is not going to be bought by lobbyists giving his wife or kids plum jobs. A few Republican presidential candidates have already been humiliated by him in a very personal way, and he even had the nerve to point out they had come to him in the past with their hands out for money.

The GOP put up with his Birtherism and they fought for his endorsement in 2012 (eventually given to Romney). They went along with this kind of extremism and racism, they even encouraged it in their base. They mocked John Kerry’s purple hearts and now the shoe is on the other foot with John McCain. They railed against illegal immigrants and now Trump is calling Governor Perry a failure because Perry failed to solve the problem.

And now, here we are. Trump is a wrecking ball.

Normally, I would expect Trump to go the way we saw in 2012, when various candidates were just flavors of the month. But Trump isn’t a typical flash in the pan. He has too much money and he is too good at what he does, and the latest poll shows him with a double digit lead. I mean, that is just jaw dropping.

The GOP won’t put up with this. But what can they do? When they denounce or attack him now, he comes back so over-the-top, so strong and confident and sarcastic and bombastic, that it makes the attacker look weak. Trump is perfectly capable of forming a third party and taking a substantial potion of the GOP base with him.

But I don’t think that is the kind of third party you guys have in mind.

Posted by: phx8 at July 21, 2015 10:14 PM
Comment #396720

phx8, I don’t believe Trump has any interest in a 3rd party effort. We need a 3rd party that can take the special interest money out of party/politics to a large degree. We need a 3rd party base, not a figurehead.

Posted by: roy ellis at July 22, 2015 10:44 AM
Comment #396722

One thing is for certain regarding Trump. He is his own special interest.

Romney lost because he couldn’t energize conservatives. Trump is doing that as recent polls indicate.

The fight in the Republican Party is not about candidates but party philosophy. Frankly, I don’t like the party leadership very much. They were given control of the congress and can’t seem to figure out what to do with that power.

obama should have been easy to beat both times.

Hillary can be easily beaten if the Republican Party starts acting like opposition rather than a luke-warm version of liberalism.

The Left argues for higher minimum wages as the answer to low wages. The simple answer is to rid ourselves of illegal labor working for low wages. There will never be a scarcity of cheap labor if we keep importing it at the cost of American citizens.

The hiring of illegal workers by corporations should carry such a high penalty if caught that they stop doing it.

Everyone should know by now that we can not legislate prosperity.

The democrats are vulnerable on many fronts. An intelligent opponent should take advantage of that and win both the congress and white house.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 22, 2015 4:06 PM
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