Third Party & Independents Archives

All you have to do is wait...

I’ve said it and now they’ve said it. It’s obvious to people who aren’t smitten by the Democratic party and it’s politics.

Jonathan Gruber, an MIT economist, and the chief architect of ObamaCare, has let the cat out of the bag by actually saying what the Democratics have been thinking for decades. The Democratic Party thinks the American people are stupid.

The new Gruber comments come from a panel discussion that he joined on October 17, 2013 at the University of Pennsylvania's Leonard Davis Institute of Health Economics.

Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical for the thing to pass,

Lack of transparency enabled the Democratic party, by an overwhelming partisan vote garnered by bribery and coercion, to enshrined in law, a fraud!

As a Civil Wrong:

the requisite elements of fraud as a tort generally are the intentional misrepresentation or concealment of an important fact upon which the victim is meant to rely

As a Criminal Wrong:

The requisite elements of perhaps most general form of criminal fraud, theft by false pretense, are the intentional deception of a victim by false representation or pretense with the intent of persuading the victim to part with property and with the victim parting with property in reliance on the representation or pretense and with the perpetrator intending to keep the property from the victim.

The reasoning behind the Democratic party's fraud is also blurted out by Jonathan Gruber. In the cavalier way people who believe it as standard operating procedure, Jonathan Gruber admits to the reasoning behind the fraud by saying:

If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies.
if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in - you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed
Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I'd rather have this law than not.

I'd have to admit Jonathan Gruber is correct in his belief that some of the American People are stupid. There are people who will go to their grave believing ObamaCare is the next best thing to sliced bread. Perhaps those are the people Jonathan Gruber are talking about. He can't be talking about the congress and senate folks who benefited from the bribery they received for their vote. They knew they would benefit in some way. He's certainly not talking about the people who protested at town hall meetings across the nation the two years it was being debated. They know how government works and anticipated the gross exaggerations made trying to convince them to support the law.

No, Jonathan Gruber must be talking about the people who blindly support the Democratic party whatever it's actions may be. He must be talking about the people who cannot admit this grandiose scheme is nothing more than a fraud.

Posted by Weary_Willie at November 11, 2014 2:15 PM
Comments
Comment #385238

Please learn the difference between the word “Democrat” and “Democratic”. My best guess would be that in your internet meanderings you wandered onto the website called the Democratic Underground and started spouting off your nonsense about Democrats this and Democratic that. Those people hold a complete distinction between the words Democrat and Democratic. I would guess that any type of guidance they tried to offer you went completely over your head and you took offense. So now you just like to use “Democratic” in hopes that it will intone some amount of knowledge on the subject you wish to denigrate them with. It does not. You merely read like someone who doesn’t know how to use words properly.

The PPACA is responsible for an additional 10,000,000 people being covered with affordable healthcare insurance. I know that you believe that to be free loaders. But given your abilities in the use of words, your thought process is suspect to say the least.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 11, 2014 2:41 PM
Comment #385245

Weary,
I’ve been waiting for someone to post on this since I saw the clip this morning. It will be interesting to see how the liberals on WB respond to it. I’ll bet 2 to 1 that they will throw Jonathan Gruber under the bus, even though he was a chief architect of the law.

Posted by: tdobson at November 11, 2014 4:27 PM
Comment #385251

Liberals should be ashamed for supporting this monster obamacare but I doubt they care how harmful and dishonest it really is. Liberals care about government largess which they presume will wind up in their pocket and little else.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 11, 2014 6:59 PM
Comment #385255

WW, I find it kinda strange that your article points to a lie, just one particular lie, as it relates to our representative republic gov’t.

Or, maybe it’s just me that sees an admitted lie as no different than lies I have assumed lies across many issues. Recall the NAU attempt done in secrecy? Was the Iraq war over WMD’s or crude? I wonder how many people were involved in Phil Gram’s modification of the commodities law in ‘the middle of the night’? Dodd-Frank financial law basically wrote by wall street, passed and trashed and still being wrote and re-wrote. ‘Fast and Furious’. Lois Lerner and the IRS, the VA debacle, Nancy Pelosi and ‘we can’t know what’s in the bill until we have passed the bill’, and so on - - -

Elected folks will tell you that’s how sausage is made, dark of night, smoke filled back rooms and so on - - -


I do believe that is how sausage is made, 95% corpocracy and 5% admin staff. In that sense a lie or two along the way seems a minor event (can’t spell minisculer). Like, the ACA won’t be finished until sometime after 2014 as I understand.

I don’t believe the corpocracy thinks the average joe is stupid. Just the opposite, they need to keep things quite, below the radar, off the books, hidden deep in omnibus bills and so on so as to keep those wary steet people in the dark to the extent possible.

Often times it takes on the mantle of ‘the emperor has no clothes’ in that ‘money is free speech’, and ‘corporations are persons’ and so on - - - It’s not a lie so long as nobody admits it’s a lie, etc.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at November 11, 2014 8:30 PM
Comment #385268

Did you understand that SD? I believe WW is absolutely correct.

There are Democrats in this country and on this blog that would support Chairman Mao, Brother Joe from Russia, and Herr Hitler and others of the same ilk if they announced themselves as democrats. Certainly Debbie Wasserman Schultz would. She has indicated that in her tablet of lies. Hairless Reed would do likewise. The thing with Reed is that he is too old and slow and the train keeps leaving tha station without him. It would take him too long to spell the word democrat. I don’t want to get carried away with showcasing the democrats on a podium of achievements that are too un-american.

I should write an essay on those in power that have no concern about us stupid americans and sarcasticly and truthfully entertain their faulty assertions about us out in the hinterlands.

Certainly not a one of those mentioned above would do a lick to protect even one life, who at the present time is serving in the Army, on soil that is foreign to this nation. That is my son.

Thanks Willie for the piece.

Posted by: tom humes at November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
Comment #385294

Rep. Trey Gowdy, R-S.C., blasted Gruber on Tuesday, referring to the administration’s past transparency pledges,

I can’t even get past the irony of that to even get to the arrogance of him calling our fellow citizens stupid

Trey Gowdy asks for an apology, but I don’t think Gruber should have to apologize. It’s obvious he believes what he says. Let him own it. Let him stand behind his words. Heck! I hope he elaborates on his beliefs!

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 12, 2014 1:19 PM
Comment #385296

For some reason all of the comments made on this post were flagged as spam. I took the opportunity to approve them so they would be published. I don’t know why they were flagged.

I will see if I get the Red and White Screen Of Frustration when I submit this comment.

Here goes!

Nope! Directed to the “Get In Line”, “You’re Banned”, “AAARRGGG! I HATE THIS PAGE” page.

The reason was it was reported as spam
spam details are:
Test Score Results
SpamLookup - Link +1.0 No links are present in feedback
SpamLookup - Link +1.0 E-mail was previously published (comment id 133000).

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 12, 2014 1:52 PM
Comment #385297

Try #2

Harrumph! Same error.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 12, 2014 2:24 PM
Comment #385300

The PPACA will either succeed on it’s merits, accomplishments and legality or it will fail on those very same points. It’s as simple as that and I don’t believe there is a liberal, progressive or Democrat that will deny that truth. All of this talk about the PPACA being a monster, socialist trick, communist plot or some other nefarious plan is nonsense. What really scares the conservative/Republican/Teaparty types is the fact that there is a good amount of citizens of this country that want changes to the healthcare insurance cost and healthcare delivery system in our country. Nearly 70 million voters voted to re-elect President Obama and give him a second term in office, do you really think they thought he would scrub the whole idea? Even if the PPACA is somehow “repealed” (it is yet to be determined how that could be done) you all know that the desire to change healthcare insurance and delivery is not going to go away. Not when so many citizens are looking for that very thing. Sure you can say that there are a lot of citizens that do not want change and use all of the scare tactics, misinformation, lies and deceit to make yourselves feel all righteous about that but you know that it is coming and it will happen. It is just a matter of time and the attempts to do something about it that is unclear and unknown. After the successes of Medicare people understand that healthcare is something that is important and necessary. After all some of the same scary stuff being said about the PPACA were said about Medicare when it first rolled out. I feel no compunction about wanting the PPACA to succeed just as you feel no compunction to see it fail. Time will tell.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 12, 2014 3:47 PM
Comment #385309

The SCOTUS will once again hear this PPACA case, and the outcome may not make Obama happy. How many of the justices will buy the Democrat’s explanation of what Gruber meant? Regarding Gruber and his comments; there are now three videos of him making the same comments, but the question is, when it is brought before the Senate, how many Democrat Senators will be willing to agree that the American people are stupid and that Congress was duped? My guess is that many Democrat Senators will bail, since 28 or 29 of the original Democrat Senators, who signed the Bill, are no longer in the Senate.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 12, 2014 6:19 PM
Comment #385310

Well, there you go again, Speak4all.

The PPACA will either succeed on it’s merits, accomplishments and legality or it will fail on those very same points. It’s as simple as that and I don’t believe there is a liberal, progressive or Democrat that will deny that truth.

Did you read the post, Speak4all? Apparently there is a liberal, progressive, Democrat that will deny that truth.

His name is Jonathan Gruber. He said:

If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies.
if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in - you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed


He is openly saying he needed to lie to the CBO and the American People to get the law passed. He actually said the American people are stupid! More than once!

Are you now going to say he was taken out of context or it wasn’t really what he meant to say? Twice?

Do you also think we are stupid, Speak4all? Do you expect us to believe this guy had a slip of the tongue? Twice?

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 12, 2014 6:21 PM
Comment #385312

Sorry about the delay, folks. Something changed with this post and everything is getting flagged as spam, except the spam, of course.

Thanks for being patient. There’s no need to post your comment more than once. I’ll get to it sooner or later, and hopefully liz can track down what the problem is.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 12, 2014 6:25 PM
Comment #385318

Weary, here are the comments Gruber made can you show me where he or anyone said the dems thought the Amerian people are stupid.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/gruber.asp

Posted by: j2t2 at November 12, 2014 8:08 PM
Comment #385319

The admin is working to follow ACA with this greenhouse gas thing. The President’s ‘deal’ with China is that China has no skin in the game while the admin wants to tax US use of fossil fuels.

Again, the folks will be seen as to stupid to know whether we need such a tax or not.

What with Putin and China rattling their rockets and threatening to collaborate against the US, we are going to have to ramp up defense spending.

Recall that by sending US heavy industry to China while we kept the clean, hi tech jobs we would escape green house taxes. Now, China is building a coal fired plant every 10 days for the forseeable future. They are to pay no tax but we should?

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at November 12, 2014 8:36 PM
Comment #385359

WW, Jonathan Gruber did not get the law passed. He acted as a consultant to some extent but did not work for the White House in any capacity.

Besides anything he said did not deny my statement. The PPACA will continue to be law on it’s merits, accomplishments or legality or not. You think this proves your point, it does not. He is an irrelevant person making a comment that was pretty dumb. He is not a politician or an elected official and judging his ability to communicate ideas, he never will be.

Here is an article from a conservative news source that belies all of the contentions in your posting:

The Obamacare Debate Was One of the Most Transparent in Recent Memory

And another from a liberal source that details Gruber’s non-involvement in the PPACA:

An administration official also noted to TPM that — while Gruber is often described as an “architect” of Obamacare because he was a key consultant to the administration and was heavily involved in developing the Massachusetts health reform law that served as a starting point for the ACA — “he did not work in the White House or play the same role in developing the Affordable Care Act.”

Healthcare insurance and delivery reform will come about because people want it, not because some professor makes comments of a political nature. People will make sure it happens and don’t really pay much attention to people like Gruber. It is inevitable and that is what troubles people like yourself and others. It will happen.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 13, 2014 10:00 AM
Comment #385363

How the White House Used Gruber’s Work to Create Appearance of Broad Consensus

Now that we know that Gruber’s work was not that of an independent analyst but rather work performed as a contractor to the White House and paid for by taxpayers, and economists like Larry Mishel are raising serious questions about its validity, it should be made publicly available so others can judge its merits.
Gruber began negotiating a sole-source contract with the Department of Health and Human Services in February of 2009, for which he was ultimately paid $392,600. The contract called for Gruber to use his statistical model for evaluating alternatives “derived from the President’s health reform proposal.” It was not a research grant, but rather a consulting contract to advise the White House Office of Health Reform, headed by Obama’s health care czar Nancy-Ann DeParle, to “develop proposals” for health care reform.


On Jonathan Gruber and Disclosure

Gruber has been a go-to voice for reporters seeking a respected academic view on health care reform costs — and as far as I can tell, few if any knew that in March he was awarded a $95,000 contract with HHS and in June a $297,600 contract with HHS for providing “Technical Assistance in Evaluating Options for National Healthcare Reform.”
Gruber’s nearly $400,000 contract with the Obama administration seems to have first been noticed by a citizen-journalist-blogger, Mote Date at Daily Kos. Ben Smith of Politico then jumped on the case. Gruber told Smith:
I do indeed have a contract with HHS. Throughout this year I have provided technical assistance to the administration and to Congress with my micro-simulation model, as well as based on my experience as a member of the Massachusetts health connector board.

Health Experts and Double Standards

But if Mr. Gruber qualifies as a health expert despite his self-interest, then the studies of self-interested businesses deserve at least as much media attention. The insurer WellPoint has built a very detailed and rigorous model on the likely impact of ObamaCare, using its own actuarial data in regional markets, and found that insurance costs will spike across the board. The White House trashed it, and the press corps ignored it.
This is a double standard that has corroded much of the coverage of ObamaCare, with journalists treating government claims as oracular but business arguments as self-serving. We’ll bet Messrs. Orszag and Brownstein that WellPoint’s analysis will more closely reflect the coming insurance reality than the fruits of Mr. Gruber’s government paycheck.
Posted by: Weary Willie at November 13, 2014 1:01 PM
Comment #385364

OK so overpaid technocrats continue to be overpaid, in other news water is wet.

The following paragraph from the New Republic article is telling in the estimation of Mr. Gruber:

“In contrast, nearly everyone who’s attacking Gruber as if he were a White House political employee or a Democratic senator is simultaneously trying to require the Congressional Budget Office to say that tax cuts pay for themselves. The people who brought you the phony arithmetic of the Bush tax cuts and Medicare Part D and the self-financing Iraq war are upset about the ACA, which is genuinely fiscally sound.”

This hoopla about Gruber reminds me of the Shakespeare line from MacBeth (I won’t quote the first part as it would appear to demean the supporters of this hoopla) “full of sound and fury signifying nothing”. The first part is “It is a tale told by an idiot” and I do not want you to think that is what I think of you or anyone that is promulgating the need to hold Gruber up as an example. You can do that but he is not an example of this Administration’s goals in reforming the healthcare insurance cost and healthcare delivery to our citizens.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 13, 2014 2:24 PM
Comment #385367

Pelosi knew of him before she didn’t know of him.


Posted by: Weary Willie at November 13, 2014 3:28 PM
Comment #385368

Nothing stands as any refutation of my comment that the PPACA will either continue to be a law due to it’s merits, accomplishments or legality or not for those same reasons. But what cannot be ignored is the significant amount of our citizenry that wants and will get healthcare insurance cost and healthcare delivery reform. All of this talk of politicians, overpaid technocrats, administration ambiance is really just fluff. The people of our country will get their answer, keeping in mind not everyone is in agreement with the PPACA as law. I really do not know the answer but I can hope for the outcome I want, just as you can also.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 13, 2014 3:40 PM
Comment #385369

No one is disputing the status of the law. It is the fact that the administration lied to, and preyed upon, and hid behind people who believed them to get it passed. That doesn’t include the bribery and kickbacks senators received for their vote.

I really don’t care about the status of the law and you’re shifting of the focus to it. I’m concerned about how the administration deceived those people they consider “stupid” to get the law passed.

If anyone else tried to sell a product like this they would be thrown in jail for fraud.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 13, 2014 4:00 PM
Comment #385371

With the SCOTUS determining that the fine is a TAX, and with the SCOTUS going to rule on other parts of the law and with Gruber’s videos coming to light IMO the Administration is going to have a hard time defending the ACA this time. I think even the liberal side of the SCOTUS will be hard pressed ruling for the Law.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 13, 2014 4:15 PM
Comment #385372

OK, got a 503 error service not available this time so I am pretty sure my last comment didn’t make it but I am putting it out there again sorry if it doubles up but I think it is worth being said.

And I really don’t care that you think someone lied or was preyed upon besides not believing that they did or were.

The conversation is really about what the people of this country want. It is my belief that a significant amount, enough to make it happen, want healthcare insurance cost and healthcare delivery reform. This includes healthcare professionals as well as those footing the bill. Reform will be had, the PPACA is a step in the right direction and will be viewed as such regardless of it’s tenure.

You fell for the right wing meme that “it’s poor people getting free stuff” and ignored the people who were over paying for insurance and getting under achievement in healthcare delivery. The idea that this was some grand plan to allow poor people to take over the world is in it’s death throes and will soon be put in it’s final resting place, oblivion.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 13, 2014 4:20 PM
Comment #385374

This conversation is not about what people want. It’s about the people who are supposed to be leading this country are lying to us and think we’re stupid.

Your deflection from the topic is just that, a deflection, used to avoid the ugly truth.

You can keep your head in the sand if you want, Speak4all. That’s something I don’t care about. Rich KAPitan is right to say the Supreme Court will have their say. We’ll see if ObamaCare stands on it’s own merits.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 13, 2014 4:41 PM
Comment #385377

The people of this country want Affordable care. What they don’t want is lies and deceit and being called stupid, speaks. Weary is right you can keep your head in the sand all you want and defend the president all you want but the fact remains a majority of people don’t like or want the bulls**t monstrosity of a PPACA law.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 13, 2014 4:59 PM
Comment #385378

We will all get our say, I hope. It is unfortunate that all you want to do is act all sanctimonious about the how and why. But you have held this position all along, not really caring about what the law is meant to do just wanting to yell I don’t like it and I don’t like Obama. There has been no proof of the contention of your post, that the administration used Gruber to misinform and obfuscate the citizenry. I have provided links for you to see their denial but you just can’t get yourself to understand that just because you think they had these nefarious plans means that they did in your mind. They did not. The only nefarious plan all along was by right wing pundits, radio hosts and blowhards wanting to at first make it about poor people getting free stuff. How many times did we hear that the only reason President Obama was elected was because he promised people free stuff when he never did anything of that sort. I can tell you, to many times. Now that it is going to get down to regular people realizing an advantage from the PPACA you need to change your yell to but they lied, they cheated, they preyed. People will be more interested in the results than your unprovable contentions.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 13, 2014 5:08 PM
Comment #385382

Saying Gruber was nothing more than a consultant is THE liberal talking point to remove Obama as far as possible from Gruber. Gruber was most certainly a main architect of Obamacare. After Obama was elected, one of the first things he did was call Gruber to the WH.

Have you honestly heard Pelosi say she never knew Gruber. It’s hilarious.

Gruber went out and bragged about how he deceived the American people, because that is what arrogant liberals do. This same thing can be seen with Obama; either he or his administration will let the cat out of the bag on every secret thing that takes place.

Gruber has struck a raw nerve with the left.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 13, 2014 7:07 PM
Comment #385394

Speaks, all liers will deny that they lied. Just look at how Obama lied when he said numerous times we can keep our plans and doctors, we all know that was a lie now. All politicians lie it just seems this administration has done a better job than most.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 13, 2014 8:15 PM
Comment #385397
Gruber went out and bragged about how he deceived the American people, because that is what arrogant liberals do.

Sam you are as bad as Weary, I have seen what Gruber said and it didn’t sound a anything like bragging nor did he sound arrogant. He was speaking to a group of his peers at an medical economic conference. The extremist at American Commitment excerpted a brief bit of the conference and you guys have made up the rest of the story.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/American_Commitment

Posted by: j2t2 at November 13, 2014 10:41 PM
Comment #385398

Nope, you’re right, j2t2. He didn’t sound like he was bragging or arrogant. He sounded like he believed what he was saying and he sounded like he was comfortable saying it in front of his audiences. His audiences must also believes it because it was 13 months before it came out into the open.

I’ll bet it wouldn’t have come up at all if the Republicans didn’t take this election from the Democratics. Is it a coincidense something like this stays hidden for 13 months and then comes out after the Democratics take a pounding?

I think not. Get used to it, I’d say. Remember, elections have consequences.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 14, 2014 1:31 AM
Comment #385407
I’ll bet it wouldn’t have come up at all if the Republicans didn’t take this election from the Democratics. Is it a coincidense something like this stays hidden for 13 months and then comes out after the Democratics take a pounding?

Weary, this information was released by the Koch Bros group American Commitment, who saw it on the internet this November although it had been on YouTube for months. So it really wasn’t hidden as, (no doubt) Fox would lead you to believe, unless they had some motive for doing so.

BTW is your silence on my previous question an indication the dems didn’t call the American people stupid as you claimed?

What you guys, in your frenzy to attack the ACA, seem to have missed is Grubers comments were an explanation on why the act wasn’t more efficient and his answer was because of politics opposition by conservatives. Your ideology has helped to make the act less workable and more cumbersome for all Americans.

BTW again, I have decided to quit calling the ACA “Obamacare” as it seems to have caused confusion amongst many Americans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8gA8lHApG0

Posted by: j2t2 at November 14, 2014 9:38 AM
Comment #385409

j2t2, I also listened to Gruber’s comments. Yes he was speaking to private groups, but you could hear the excitement in his voice of how and why the PPACA was written and implemented. He stated that the truth could not be told in order to get it passed. Let me try to explain this one more time, the arrogance of liberals causes them to HAVE to brag about what they accomplish. In his comments, he is touting how Kennedy pulled the wool over the government, and how the implementation of the PPACA pulled the wool over the eyes of the American people. Why else would he have stated the American people were basically stupid? Whether the Democrat politicians knew this or not doesn’t matter. It was Pelosi who said we have to pass it before we can know what’s in it; the same Pelosi who this week, blatantly told the press and the American people she didn’t know Gruber and yet we have her on tape in 2009, bragging that Gruber was one of the architects of the PPACA. Almost every House and Senate member who voted for the PPACA have been removed from office. The American voter cannot act as fast as the politicians who say it must be done now; but the American people do act and have acted. I find it interesting that Democrats, who were so outraged at some of the things Bush did to get us in Iraq; are not concerned at all that Obama absolutely lied to the American people in order to pass Obamacare.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 14, 2014 9:44 AM
Comment #385411


Nancy Pelosi says we have to pass it so we can find out what’s in it.

Harry Reid thinks the American People stink. He won’t fund cancer research for children because of petty politics.

Obama closed down an open air monument for the same reason.

And you believe Democratics don’t think the American people are stupid?

I already addressed your questionin in my original post, j2t2.

No, Jonathan Gruber must be talking about the people who blindly support the Democratic party whatever it’s actions may be.


Posted by: Weary Willie at November 14, 2014 11:11 AM
Comment #385419

Let me try to explain this one more time, the arrogance of liberals causes them to HAVE to brag about what they accomplish.

No need to explain such tripe again. It’s just not backed up by anything but your hated for liberals.

In his comments, he is touting how Kennedy pulled the wool over the government, and how the implementation of the PPACA pulled the wool over the eyes of the American people.

He is explaining, not touting as if it were some accomplish Sam, you just don’t want to understand. The inefficiencies in the act is what is under discussion, inefficiencies due to political considerations. What he is explaining to attendees of the conference is why some thing are the way they are, to allow for passage of the bill.


Why else would he have stated the American people were basically stupid?

Lets remember the obstructionist conservatives were claiming death panels and much other nonsense as part of a massive propaganda attack on health care reform. Many Americans consistently dumbed down by conservative media outlets were foolish enough to fall for it. That was the situation at the time. That is why some inefficiencies became part of the law, political considerations due to the myths misinformation half truths and outright lies of conservatives in Congress, the media and amongst the people of the country.

Whether the Democrat politicians knew this or not doesn’t matter.

Neither evidently does the fact that republican politicians knew about it, it’s the normal course of events when making law.

But all your gibberish aside Sam the false claims you and Weary made to distort what was actually said- “Gruber went out and bragged about how he deceived the American people, because that is what arrogant liberals do.” and ” The Democratic Party thinks the American people are stupid.” have not panned out, just so much misleading talking points of the extreme right. Gross exaggerations to manipulate the will of the people.

Seems to me such a shame as we the people really do need to come to terms on a health care system that works. The ACA was an attempt to do so. Is it perfect? No. So what, it is a better system than what we had, and the problems Gruber has brought up on several different occasions perhaps need to be addressed, but with the vitriol and myths create by you guys on the right it makes it hard to move ahead in any meaningful way. Kinda like when the bill was passed and what Gruber was referring to. I would suggest a lot less exaggeration and some honest intentions by the far right would go a long ways to improving the ACA.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 14, 2014 12:11 PM
Comment #385423

Sorry j2t2, but you can’t expect us to believe it’s conservatives fault when not one republican voted for the bill.

Do you think we would believe republicans stuck a bunch of destructive measures in the bill to destroy it and then didn’t vote for it?

Do you also think the American people are stupid?

Gruber didn’t say it just once as a slip of the tongue. He said it many times and he believed it. Many in his audience laughed when he said it. That’s why I said Democratics think the American people are stupid, because they do.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 14, 2014 12:47 PM
Comment #385430

j2t2 and other liberals are trying to tow the WH line that Gruber is an unknown entity; that Republicans and conservative media are simply spreading false information; and that Obamacare really is a good program. The problem is, they are all false statements. j2t2’s answer to his own statement “the ACA has problems” is “so what”. It gives the Federal government 17% of our economy to screw up, as they have done everything else, and the left’s answer is “so what”. The WH and the Democrats are running from Gruber and his involvement in Obamacare as fast as they can; but the facts prove differently.

I know the left wants us to believe they are in the majority when it comes to governing, but every election since the passage of Obamacare shows us a consistent move by the American people to repeal Obamacare. It will eventually be done.

Those greedy insurance companies are going to pay fines and penalties; those greedy corporations are going to pay their fair share of taxes. But corporations never pay taxes, and insurance companies never pay fines or penalties. It is the consumer who pays.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 14, 2014 1:46 PM
Comment #385448

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3891956966001/melissa-francis-i-was-silenced-by-cnbc

The plot thickens!

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 14, 2014 4:08 PM
Comment #385459
Sorry j2t2, but you can’t expect us to believe it’s conservatives fault when not one republican voted for the bill.

Weary, the repubs had the choice to get involved but as we remember they didn’t. In fact they set their propaganda machine to work to destroy the bill. The very issues Gruber is speaking to in this conference could have been resolved with repub support (and who knows what else could have been implemented) if they had only came to the table to do what we the people expected then to do. Instead they followed their Tea Party money men and boycotted the bill.

Had they not spent so much effort on convincing the American public of death panels and such perhaps our fellow Americans would have been better informed about the bill. Perhaps the efficiencies Gruber speaks of would have been included in the bill. Instead conservatives spent their energy dumbing down the American people and Gruber informed the conference of that. What did you think he was talking about when he said ” And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical to get the thing to pass. Look, I wish … we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/gruber.asp#ELcIOXeGPgjauohW.99


Do you also think the American people are stupid?

Weary, As I have said many times I think the American people are good decent people. The problem as it relates to the ACA and Gruber is the constant propaganda fed to many people, rabid conservative movement followers and your run of the mill conservatives as well as those influenced by conservatives,and it dumbs them down, they rely upon the myths misinformation half truths and outright lies of conservative leaders like the Koch Bros.

Ya know Weary this is a good question. After thinking about it. Now politicians in general I may agree that they consider us stupid. The money men behind the scenes definitely do. But to say just the dems shows us…. er umm well maybe we are

Gruber didn’t say it just once as a slip of the tongue. He said it many times and he believed it. Many in his audience laughed when he said it. That’s why I said Democratics think the American people are stupid, because they do.

Weary, In the 52 second clip from Snopes not one person laughed at this comment. Do you have links that prove your claim that he said it many times and they laughed?

But lets say they did laugh, what you are suggesting is all those in attendance at this conference are dems or just those that you falsely believe laughed, or how do you make the logical leap to dems think the American people are stupid because one guy says “call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever” as part of an explanation as to why some things were less efficient in the AC bill.

BTW one repub did vote for the bill.
http://affordablehealthca.com/timeline-obamacare/

Posted by: j2t2 at November 14, 2014 6:08 PM
Comment #385462

Cao was the only Republican to vote for the draft Affordable Health Care for America Act (H.R. 3962) on November 7, 2009.[52][53] Yet Cao, because of concerns of alleged public funding for elective abortion provisions, joined the rest of his party in opposing the final version, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 14, 2014 6:24 PM
Comment #385464

There are now 5 video’s of Gruber telling how he duped the American people. As WW says, the plot thickens…

Posted by: George at November 14, 2014 6:28 PM
Comment #385479

ABC and NBC, as of last evening, hasn’t mentioned the Gruber spiel.

Posted by: roy ellis at November 14, 2014 9:23 PM
Comment #385482
ABC and NBC, as of last evening, hasn’t mentioned the Gruber spiel.

Wow Roy it must be a conspiracy. You of all people must realize that this is much ado about nothing Roy. Gruber made some comments that are quite factual, yet the conservative propaganda machine has twisted these comments into something they aren’t. As he also says, but seems to have been forgotten by the extremist on the right “Look, I wish … we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.”

His comments are dealing with the subject of the conference “Gruber, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor of economics, was speaking at a panel titled “The Role of Economics in Shaping the ACA and How Economics Can Inform Inevitable Mid-Course Corrections.”
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/gruber.asp#3rTVqd3mrvXLgcPQ.99

So this is news only to those who have spent he past 4 years trying to defeatd and destroy the ACA.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 15, 2014 12:33 AM
Comment #385484

Don’t think so j2t2, you will find Democrats who will be upset with what Gruber did. This is not over.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 15, 2014 1:00 AM
Comment #385488

It’s awful telling how Democrats are embracing the hoax their leaders pulled on the American people, including them.

Fox is calling it OBAMACARE HOAX. Seems they re about the only ones covering it.

Posted by: tdobson at November 15, 2014 9:19 AM
Comment #385492

Weary, you are right I stand corrected regarding Cao.

Of course Faux is railing on about it guys. They have been misinforming their audience for years about the ACA. This is just another chance for the extremist to derail the ACA. That doesn’t mean Faux is right by any means, they are opportunist jumping on Gruber for explaining the politics that led to the less efficient economics of the law.

I mean lets face it, what Gruber is saying is if the voting public understood what he believes were better options but politically unfeasible there would have been less political opposition and more support by conservatives to use the more efficient methods he alludes to in the other hour of the recording/conference that doesn’t have the money shot conservative propagandist are disseminating to movement followers.

Sam of course it isn’t over. I hope that many other laws enacted over the years are also revisited for transparency when conservatives attempt to repeal the ACA for this lack of transparency Gruber speaks of.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 15, 2014 10:29 AM
Comment #385493
j2t2 and other liberals are trying to tow the WH line that Gruber is an unknown entity;

I can only speak for myself Sam and I don’t think for a second he is an unknown entity, in fact I am glad to see this issue surface in these conferences. We do need to have mid course corrections, IMHO, to make the law better. To bad the conservative propaganda machine has turned this into a circus for the political gain of movement money men.

(on a side note Sam not that I don’t do it often myself but more an FYI)

that Republicans and conservative media are simply spreading false information;

Sam, wake up my friend the conservative media, politicians, the tea party and Koch Bros funded groups have been spreading myths misinformation half truths and outright lies since 2009 on the ACA. Look at the link I provided in this thread for just a small sampling of the false information they are responsible for.

and that Obamacare really is a good program.

It wasn’t my preference Sam, but it is better than what we had and it seems to be holding insurance premiums increases down to single digits after years of double digit increases.

The problem is, they are all false statements.

Saying it doesn’t make it so Sam. I have provided links to back up what I have said not some blanket statement like “they are all false statements”.


j2t2’s answer to his own statement “the ACA has problems” is “so what”.

Sam can you name a bill made into law that doesn’t have problems? The conferences Gruber speaks at seems to involve bettering the ACA as well as explaining the choices and decisions both political and practical that went into crafting the bill. Repubs and conservatives in Congress have spent much time and effort to repeal the law instead of improving the law. Gruber is looking at mid course corrections to improve the law, I say good for him.

It gives the Federal government 17% of our economy to screw up,

Sam, the reality is insurance companies and health care providers etc. are all able to screw it up by themselves, the government didn’t take over health care that is just another myth.

People were going bankrupt with outrageous medical bills Sam, People were left without coverage when they needed it the most. The previous system was costly, way to costly for most Americans something had to be done. Where were your guys when it was time to do something? Sitting it out and whining, making up stories and doing everything possible to make Obama a one term president instead of doing what was necessary to make the system better.


as they have done everything else,

Sam, sending conservatives to political office with an ideology that government is the problem has led to screwing things up IMHO. Privatizing hasn’t been as successful as we were led to believe by your guys in office.

and the left’s answer is “so what”.


No my answer was “so what” Sam, I speak only for me not “the left”.

The WH and the Democrats are running from Gruber and his involvement in Obamacare as fast as they can; but the facts prove differently.

I don’t doubt there is some political ass covering but there is also the task of answering the conservative propaganda machines exaggerations, inconsistencies and illogical conclusions, IMHO, so what you consider “running from” may include responding to the propaganda and setting the record straight. Personally Sam I like what I’ve seen from the guy and hope he continues to look for ways to improve the ACA.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 15, 2014 11:27 AM
Comment #385495

This law has a lot of unintended consequences.

This law is so convoluted that even after 4 years it is still being written.

Not knowing what the law will end up being has big employers sitting on their money and not putting it into what would restart this economy.

The favoritism certain groups are getting from the administration is causing others to resent the law.

The turmoil that cancelled policies people have been subjected to further promotes distrust.

And now Gruber comes out saying sorry about your luck stupid people, we got ours, go f yourselves.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 15, 2014 11:59 AM
Comment #385506

Weary, lets lets Gruber respond to your remarks-

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-architect-under-fire-for-mocking—stupid—americans-210401710.html

I like this Gruber guy, truth to power and all that.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 15, 2014 3:09 PM
Comment #385532

Why let Gruber do it, j2t2? Why don’t you respond to my remarks? Did you actually read the rest of that article you linked to? Gruber doesn’t have a chance in hell of getting that job in Vermont because of his arrogance.

Alot can be said about the Democratic party’s base being the stupid people Gruber is referring to.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 16, 2014 1:54 AM
Comment #385533

Also, j2t2…

All you have to do is wait…

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 16, 2014 1:55 AM
Comment #385538
Why let Gruber do it, j2t2? Why don’t you respond to my remarks?

OH ok,…. are these comments from my adolescent children?

Gruber doesn’t have a chance in hell of getting that job in Vermont because of his arrogance.

Truth to power has a downside at times Weary. Besides lets see Vermont hire the conservatives guy’s consultant and see how it works, kinda like Kansas and their conservative utopia flop.

Alot can be said about the Democratic party’s base being the stupid people Gruber is referring to.

A lot has been said Weary, But the exaggerations, the butt hurt outrage has been from conservatives, wonder why that is. Seems to me it is conservatives in such a rage over years old comments from a consultant at health economics conferences. It also seems to me it is conservatives now telling us “see we were right all along” yet at the time they were telling us of death panels, the government would be between us and our doctors, massive job losses, and many other lies where is your outrage for those idiots? Even now Weary, you claim the PPACA is a fraud yet it seems to be working much better than you guys give it credit for, despite all the negativity from conservatives, despite all the court challenges, despite all the propaganda, hell most people prefer the ACA to the non existent Obamacare when questioned.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 16, 2014 11:34 AM
Comment #385611

Obama knew about him before he didn’t know about him

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 17, 2014 6:49 PM
Comment #385998

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/11/22/Obama-Admin-Admits-it-Inflated-Obamacare-Numbers-by-1-3-Million

ObamaCare Numbers inflated by 1.3 million!


Be honest. How many people knew this back when they announced that ObamaCare passed the 7 million mark?

C’mon, I know you did!

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 24, 2014 12:16 AM
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