Third Party & Independents Archives

Jobs Bill?

Have our representatives in DC finally done something that would help the country recover from the economic meltdown? Is there reason for optimism for those of us that are struggling to stay in the middle class? The Senate has opened a week of debate on the Currency Exchange Rate Oversight Reform Act of 2011.

The re evaluation of the Yuan is the target of the bill. As we know our friends, the Chinese, have been keeping the Yuan at an artificially low rate for years whilst our representatives in Washington have done little or nothing to stop it. They have stood by and watched our trade deficit with China grow and grow. The attempt by the House of Representatives to deal with this issue last year went nowhere even as the recovery was stalling and job creation was flat.

This ray of hope still has a long way to go but the good news is the next election cycle is gearing up. What are the chances this bill can get out of the Democratic controlled Senate and through the Republican controlled House of Representatives and actually have some meat on its bones? What are the chances this bill can get through the lobbyist and big money corporations that control our representatives without becoming a watered down piece of fluff that does more damage than good for the people of this country?

Yeah I know, more questions than answers but such is the legislative process these days.

Posted by j2t2 at October 4, 2011 9:41 AM
Comments
Comment #330053

J2
Do you think there is anything to the Chinese threat of a trade war?

Posted by: kctim at October 4, 2011 3:20 PM
Comment #330057

Yes I do kctim. The Chinese don’t play by the rules so I would think we need to consider the threat real. I also believe we need to force their hand on the issue. The other option is to give in and let the trade imbalance continue as is, which doesn’t benefit us.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2011 5:12 PM
Comment #330065

This is a complicated issue. The undervaluation of the Chinese currency does benefit us in some ways and it disadvantages us in other ways. The Chinese are providing us finished goods at a huge discount. The American consumer benefits tremendously. In order to maintain their trade cost advantage by undervaluing their currency, they are forced to reinvest the money in the US (principally Treasuries) resulting in a capital account surplus for the US. But, the trade account deficit, although balanced by the capital account surplus hurts US manufacturing and jobs in the US.

Forcing the Chinese to revalue their currency upwards will hurt the US consumer by weakening the dollar and increasing the cost of goods from China. This may be good for US manufacturing but bad for the consumer and will result in price inflation for consumer goods in the US and a reduction of Chinese purchase of US debt. We have been yoked in a kind of economic symbiosis for some time. Its a difficult issue requiring a delicate hand.

Posted by: Rich at October 4, 2011 7:03 PM
Comment #330067

Its a difficult issue requiring a delicate hand.

Posted by: Rich at October

Agreed and certainly above the competence of the obama administration to handle.

The answer is so apparent, and yet, so elusive politically. By making the US the country in which to locate plants, do business and make things, we can lure jobs back here and put a huge dent in the China advantage of cheap labor (although, they are now competing with other countries for low cost labor).

How is that accomplished? Through the tax code, development of our advantageous natural resources, and through elimination of regulations that keep the US from being competitive on a world scale.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 4, 2011 8:06 PM
Comment #330070

Rich I agree the issue is complex but I favor jobs for this country. We will have higher costs for Chinese imports no matter what we do as their wages increase. Most Chinese made products are junk anyway. If we have to pay more for a TV or VCR so be it. Perhaps the American solar industry can compete with China should the Yuan be revalued.

To think that we should have to give corporations more tax loopholes and other incentives and gut the EPA, OSHA and labor laws to bring them back is unacceptable to me Royal. I would prefer to do away with employer based health insurance in favor of universal health insurance to help the corporations compete.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-03-16-chinese-drywall-sulfur_N.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34859033/ns/health-childrens_health/t/parents-warned-about-chinese-made-jewelry/#.TounAbJMf0Q

http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/beware-of-fake-chinese-sterling-silver/

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2011 8:40 PM
Comment #330072

j2t2 must be one of the Wall Street protestors. One of their goals, as I read in the blue column, was to do away with insurance companies and put everyone on universal HC.

But since the subject of your post is the “Jobs Bill”, I am curious; obama came up with a jobs bill and since the republicans don’t like it and since the president is a democrat, which of the democrat House or Senate members actually brought it to the floor for a vote. Although, Senator McConnell did try to bring the presidents bill up on the floor of the Senate today. How did that go?

President Barack Obama has traveled the country to rally support for his jobs legislation and prodded Congress to take up the bill immediately.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s response? Sure.
Continue Reading

Text Size
-
+
reset

Listen


POLITICO 44


The Kentucky Republican — obviously opposed to the measure — went for a little procedural trickery Tuesday, pushing for an immediate vote on Obama’s $447 billion jobs package, insisting that every senator should go on the record on whether they support the president’s bill.

“What the president has asked for is not parts of it, but the whole thing,” McConnell told reporters Tuesday. “He’s been critical of Congress for not giving him a vote. I think we should. I think he’s entitled to know where the Senate stands on his proposal in its entirety.”

McConnell tried to do just that later Tuesday afternoon by proposing the bill as an amendment to the China currency bill that the Senate is considering.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid — who sets the floor schedule — quickly objected.”


Why is that? Could it be that no democrats want to go on record voting for higher taxes a year before an election? Interesting….more to follow.

Posted by: TomT at October 4, 2011 9:25 PM
Comment #330074

Royal Flush,

Its not as though the US is a hostile country for doing business. In the most recent World Bank annual ranking for ease of doing business, the US ranked 5th and China 72nd. The wage arbitrage problem is a very difficult problem to overcome.

The deal the Chinese have been offering is really quite alluring. Buy our products at a substantial discount and we will sweeten the deal by reinvesting a good portion of the purchase price in your company stock.

Posted by: Rich at October 4, 2011 9:33 PM
Comment #330075

“Most Chinese made products are junk anyway.”

j2t2,

That’s what people said about the Japanese before they took over the automotive and electronics industry with high quality, dependable, lower cost automobiles, tvs, vcrs, etc. The Chinese are investing heavily in education, infrastructure, energy and raw material resources. They are a formidable competitor. Make no mistake.

Posted by: Rich at October 4, 2011 9:41 PM
Comment #330078
j2t2 must be one of the Wall Street protestors. One of their goals, as I read in the blue column, was to do away with insurance companies and put everyone on universal HC.

No Tom T I am not but I have contributed to their cause and I support them as they protest wall street corruption, corporate personhood and money as free speech, you should to.

The fact is employer based health insurance keeps our corporations from competing on the global level with other corporations. The uncertainty associated with the ever increasing costs of health care plagues many business owners small and large Tom T.

Tying the Presidents job bill into the Chinese currency bill is the kind of foolish politics that shows McConnell to be unworthy of his position. Both bills should stand alone on their individual merits to combine them shows the repubs “party before country” attitude IMHO, Tom T.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2011 10:16 PM
Comment #330079
That’s what people said about the Japanese…

True Rich but at the time it was an accurate reflection of the quality of Japanese products. The Chinese may well get to a point where they have quality products but they are not there yet judging by the links I posted in the previous comment. It shows us a sample of the inferior products coming from China now. I don’t doubt the investments you speak of will pay dividends for the Chinese in the future but I am more interested in our future in this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2011 10:30 PM
Comment #330090

Thanks J2. Kind of interesting stuff. All new to me and I appreciate the info.
You too Rich and Royal.

Posted by: kctim at October 5, 2011 10:45 AM
Comment #330095

Rich wrote; “Its not as though the US is a hostile country for doing business. In the most recent World Bank annual ranking for ease of doing business, the US ranked 5th and China 72nd. The wage arbitrage problem is a very difficult problem to overcome.”

Ease of doing business can be very misleading. Do you have any idea of the hoops that a foreign nation must jump through to build a business in china? It is mind-boggling.

I don’t believe corporations in the US should pay any taxes. When profits are made and passed on to the owners (stockholders) taxes are collected.

If we want American jobs we need only make America the best place to produce goods as it once was. No corporate taxes would make our economy boom with jobs in abundance. Any tax revenue lost by not taxing the corporation would be more than made up for with full employment.

There are literally thousands of unnecessary regulations that strangle our competitiveness with the rest of the world.

Fully utilizing our energy natural resources would provide the low cost energy we need to really make our economy sizzle.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 5, 2011 3:56 PM
Comment #330100

j2t2, perhaps you missed my question since you became so enraged at being identified with the WS protestors. Which of the democrats in the House or Senate, brought obama’s job bill to the floor? I know McConnell, a republican, tried to bring obama’s bill to the floor of the Senate and Reid blocked it. What think you?

Posted by: TomT at October 5, 2011 5:55 PM
Comment #330101

Here’s a little poll question.

Are there any liberals or progressives on WB that wish to align themselves with the WS mob agenda?

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 5, 2011 6:01 PM
Comment #330102

RF said:

“I don’t believe corporations in the US should pay any taxes. When profits are made and passed on to the owners (stockholders) taxes are collected.”

Royal, what we have, are a bunch of politicians who have absolutely no knowledge of business trying to run things from the congress. I have said for years that corporations do not pay taxes, consumers do. There is such a thing as a profit margin and companies are in business to make money. They are not there to make all things equal, or even to create jobs. They are in business to make a profit. When the profit is made, the employees get hired, and the wages go up. But it is a misnomer to believe corporations are in business for any other liberal feel good reason. Example: democrats tried to find ways of interfering with bank profits by passing more regulations. Results: banks now have placed charges on debit cards, which is legal. Durbin (the corrupt Chicago senator) calls for a run on the bank. It simply shows how ignorant these democrats are…

Posted by: Mike at October 5, 2011 6:06 PM
Comment #330103


The Chinese say they are re valuing the Yuan and that it has risen, against the dollar by more than 18% since 2005.

“Any tax revenue lost by not taxing the corporation would be more than made up by full employment.”

Royal, according to conservative think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, this is a true premise. Heritage sites the Kennedy Administration as an example. The supply side economics and globalization pressures of today are considerably different than economic policy during the Kennedy Administration.

According to many other sources, the Bush Administration has proven the premise to be false. Other sources include, the Congressional Budget Office, the Treasury Department, the Joint Committee on Taxation, the White House Council of Economic Advisers, and a former Bush Administration economist.

The Bush tax cuts decreased government revenue even though unemployment remained at or near 5%, a figure that is often touted, especially by conservatives, as near as full employment that we can achieve. According to conservatives, 5% is a level at which everyone who wants a job has one.

That tax revenue decrease combined with the massive spending of the Bush Administration created a $5 trillion debt.

The cost of natural resources as source of energy is going to rise no matter how much we move to rely on our own. And it will continue to rise no matter how much we weaken regulations, environmental or otherwise.

Removing oil from tar sands is more expensive, off shore drilling is more expensive, extracting natural gas by the fracking method is more expensive. The price of coal will continue to rise even if we totally eliminate the Clean Air Act and forget all about sequestering CO2.

Only renewable energy can affect the upward pricing of fossil fuels in a negative way.

By the way, the president and CIO of China’s premier capital investment firm, said that American regulation is a deterrent to investing in America, but not the major one and that the emerging markets have plenty of deterrents as well.

Posted by: jlw at October 5, 2011 6:31 PM
Comment #330104
j2t2, perhaps you missed my question since you became so enraged at being identified with the WS protestors.

Tom T you are mistaken I am not outraged at all. I have donated to the OWS people, I voted on the issues I thought important on their website and I support them as I have stated in my previous comment.


Which of the democrats in the House or Senate, brought obama’s job bill to the floor? I know McConnell, a republican, tried to bring obama’s bill to the floor of the Senate and Reid blocked it. What think you?

Tom T I chose to ignore your question because other than the cheap political trickery of McConnell trying to tie the Jobs bill into the Chinese currency bill the question you raise is not relevant to this post. I thought I was pretty clear on this in my last comment.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2011 6:46 PM
Comment #330105
Are there any liberals or progressives on WB that wish to align themselves with the WS mob agenda?

Which mob and agenda are you speaking of specifically Royal? It seems almost all the financial gangs in the financial district known as wall street are filled with banksters that have legalized corruption and fraud. The wall street syndicates have bought off elected officials, filled the SEC with cronies that look the other way as crimes are perpetrated by these banksters and overturned laws that protected main street and the middle class from their corruption.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2011 7:08 PM
Comment #330106

j2t2…I will consider that a vote for the mob.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 5, 2011 7:15 PM
Comment #330107

Royal Flush,

Anything that could be done to stimulate growth in US businesses should be done. That includes streamlining regulations and the tax code as well as reducing the health insurance costs borne by corporations. Everybody agrees on those goals including the most important, health insurance relief.

The problem is that there is little agreement on the alternatives to the status quo. In fact, there is little actual debate on the issues. For example, both liberal and conservative think tanks have long identified the health insurance burden as one of the most important drags on corporate competitiveness and profits. Conservatives want to replace the employer group insurance model with an individual private sector insurance model. Liberals want to replace the current model with a universal model similar to that used in Canada. We just had a huge debate on health insurance, but it hardly touched on the real issue of alternatives to employer group coverage.

I don’t know what the answer is to political inertia. Obama suggests reduction of the statutory corporate tax to 27% with elimination of credits, subsidies, loopholes, etc. A proposal that conservatives have supported for some time. But, where is the bill? Where is the action on the proposal? One of the most important tax reforms of the Reagan administration was the elimination of such baubles and beads from the overall tax code. It was a very successful reform. We apparently can’t get to first base today.

In my opinion, we have allowed powerful vested interests in the status quo to frame the debates. Money has corrupted rational debate. Liberals and conservatives beat each other up on peripheral issues that have little relevance to the important and substantive issues. Until we establish a firewall between politicians and those vested interests, I don’t see any real progress.

Posted by: Rich at October 5, 2011 8:07 PM
Comment #330108

Royal consider it a vote for main street not wall street. The mob, as in the organized crime we see on wall street, has had their run for to long. Corporations are not people, Money is not speech and usury is usury even when the banksters do it.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2011 8:09 PM
Comment #330109
Royal, what we have, are a bunch of politicians who have absolutely no knowledge of business trying to run things from the congress.

No Mike, what we have are a bunch of businessmen with no knowledge of running government running our elected representatives in Congress for their personal gain.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2011 8:55 PM
Comment #330110

“…usury is usury even when the banksters do it.”

j2t2,

This simple issue has flown under the radar for a long time. There was a time when most states had strict usury laws protecting consumers from outrageous interest rates. Most have been gutted to the point that loan sharking is a perfectly legal business practice. Miss a credit card payment by a few days and suddenly your paying 25%+ interest regardless of credit history.

The history of usury laws in the US illustrates the power of the financial lobby and the failure of our politicians of both parties at the national level to protect the consumer from usury abuses.

Usury laws have historically been the responsibility of the states. Up until the late 70s, most states had very stringent laws limiting credit interest rate charges and protecting the consumer against usury. Loan sharking was a criminal practice.

However, in the late 70s, a Supreme Court decision held that prohibitions against inter-state banking was unconstitutional. A nuance of that decision was that the usury laws of the state in which the bank is domiciled would control a credit card contract. This resulted in banks relocating to the few states which had very weak or no usury laws. There was then an understandable rush by the rest of the states to eliminate or substantially reduce their usury laws in order to attract the companies to their states.

Now, the reasonable response to this situation would be to replace the now useless efforts of the states to control usury with a federal national usury law. There is no constitutional provision that would prevent such a law. If the vast majority of states had found such protections important for centuries, why would Congress not find it important at a national level? It seems to me the answer is obvious. Money and power trump protections for the consumer.

Posted by: Rich at October 5, 2011 10:14 PM
Comment #330114

j2t2, I see you love to pull the old liberal trick of jumping on an insignificant point, making a big deal of it, and then ignoring the main point. I asked you to give me a name of a democrat congressman or senator who brought obama’s job bill to the floor of the house or senate, and you chose to revise and extend on McConnell. Now, I ask you again, which democrat has brought obama’s bill to the floor of the congress. I mean, someone must have since obama is giving one speech after another, demanding his bill to be passed. Someone has to introduce the bill before it can be voted on; which democrat introduced his bill?

Or perhaps you have no answer? Perhaps obama doesn’t have any democratic support for his bill? Perhaps the democrats are thing about next years election? It turns out, you high and mighty liberal standards are nothing more than BS when it comes to re-election.

Posted by: TomT at October 6, 2011 9:24 AM
Comment #330116
j2t2, I see you love to pull the old liberal trick of jumping on an insignificant point, making a big deal of it, and then ignoring the main point.

Sigh. Tom T, Focus dude Focus! It really isn’t an old liberal trick, it’s called honesty. Once again, other than McConnell’s dirty tricks how exactly is your question relevant to the topic of this thread? The topic is the Chinese currency bill, can you add anything to this discussion?


Any comments on the obstructionist in Congress?

http://nationaljournal.com/congress/senate-republicans-to-block-chinese-currency-bill-20111005

Why would Boehner be against this bill Tom T?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/04/us-usa-china-currency-idUSTRE7911TD20111004

Is the bill not needed?

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/10/whats-behind-congress-taking-on-chinas-currency-policy/246098/

Posted by: j2t2 at October 6, 2011 9:40 AM
Comment #330123

TomT has asked repeatedly…”Which of the democrats in the House or Senate, brought obama’s job bill to the floor?”

And of course the answer is…….NONE.

From the NY Times today…

“Nearly a month after the president proposed his jobs bill, it has not yet been taken up in the chamber controlled by his party. “We’ll get to that,” Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader, said last month, after taking up a misguided bill to punish China for currency manipulation. The truth is that Mr. Reid has not had enough Democratic votes to even claim a Senate majority.”

The editorial writer gave this opinion…”Ultimately, families making $250,000, and even those making less, will have to give back some of the tax benefits they got from the Bush administration if the budget is to return to long-term health. Beginning that tax-reform process now makes more sense than confining the new tax to millionaires, whatever its populist satisfactions.”

The writer went on to note…”Even Charles Schumer of New York objected to increases on families making more than $250,000, claiming— no more convincingly than Republicans do — that many are struggling small businesses.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/opinion/wheres-the-jobs-bill.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha211

Well, such is the opinion of one writer at the NY Times.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 6, 2011 1:33 PM
Comment #330130

“Sigh. Tom T, Focus dude Focus! It really isn’t an old liberal trick, it’s called honesty.”

It is an old trick and it’s pulled by liberals on WB. SD is probably one of the worse. I asked you a question several times and you don’t have enough intelligence to answer or possibly understand.

Who cares what the democrats try to do about the China situation? It’s all for show. The best thing the democrats can do is follow obama and take another vacation. If they pass some kind of bill, it will simply be another banking fiasco, that raises the rates of the everyday working people. RM, I believe even you have enough intelligence to realize any bills passed 14 months before a major election are nothing more than a show.

Your right RF, not one democrat supports obama’s jobs bill. But that doesn’t stop the lying SOB from sticking his goofy face in front of a camera every day and asking the republicans to pass his jobs bill or accusing them of blocking it.

We’ve got the ignorant links of RM above, accusing the republicans of blocking the jobs bill, and there is no bill until someone brings it to the floor of the congress.

Posted by: TomT at October 6, 2011 5:22 PM
Comment #330134

TomT, it is indicative of the arrogance of obama that he can hit the stump calling for passing HIS bill when it can’t possibly be passed if not introduced. It also says a great deal about the mental incapacity of the crowds who cheer such a silly demand. They either don’t know, or don’t care that such a bill doesn’t exist.

But then, the new liberals are not captive to reason or logic, they operate on emotion and greed. They seem to have it in their unbalanced minds that for every dollar the rich are taxed will be two dollars in their pocket or purse. It’s the same old “something for nothing” crowd that permeates Europe.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 6, 2011 5:44 PM
Comment #330139

RF, you are correct. The socialist on WB can peddle their BS all they want, but it doesn’t change the fact that not one democrat has co-sponsored obama’s jobs bill. And not one liberal on WB has the intestinal fortitude to explain why.

Posted by: TomT at October 6, 2011 6:30 PM
Comment #330142
It is an old trick and it’s pulled by liberals on WB. SD is probably one of the worse. I asked you a question several times and you don’t have enough intelligence to answer or possibly understand.

Tom T are you unable to form an opinion on the Chinese currency bill without the right wing media telling you what to say? Or are you just a troll? The facts is I asked several questions in the original post and you haven’t answered one. Yet you expect me to go off topic when you deem you have a question. I have responded to your nonsense with very clear answers twice now, yet you just cannot seem to grasp the point. Well one more time this thread isn’t about what you are questioning Tom T. With your responses you really shouldn’t use the word intelligent regardless of who or what you are referring to, Tom T.

Tom T has asked repeatedly…”Which of the democrats in the House or Senate, brought obama’s job bill to the floor?”

And he was answered each time Royal. He and apparently you simply didn’t like the response. Instead you decide to spout venom and rage against others. I expect better from you Royal. You should be able to have your say on the Chinese currency issue, shouldn’t you?

Royal you can post an article with this non issue and foolish name calling you two have been engaged in, in the red column at any time. Instead you choose to change the subject from the Chinese currency bill being debated in the Senate as we speak in the middle column. Over what? Partisan prattle. Get a grip on yourself.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 6, 2011 7:41 PM
Comment #330144

“— that many are struggling small businesses.”

It should be remembered that profits/losses from “small” businesses that are taxed as personal income (Sub-chapter S election) are not being taxed at the corporate level. I fail, therefore, to see how this issue has any significant relevance. It is net personal income whether derived from wages or a “small business.”

Posted by: Rich at October 6, 2011 7:59 PM
Comment #330147

j2t2, “divide and conquer”; are you trying to it RF and I against each other?

Posted by: TomT at October 6, 2011 9:07 PM
Comment #330150

Focus Tom T focus, everything said by “us guys” is not a conspiracy.
The Senate voted today 62-38 to limit debate on the currency bill Tom T. It could go to the HoR next week. What is your view on this issue?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-06/u-s-senate-votes-62-38-to-limit-debate-on-chinese-currency-legislation.html

Posted by: j2t2 at October 6, 2011 9:40 PM
Comment #330153

My view? I already stated my view; it’s for show. No substance and when and if they pass some sort of resolution, it will do nothing about China, but will have an adverse affect of corporations and the American worker.

Posted by: TomT at October 7, 2011 7:15 AM
Post a comment