Third Party & Independents Archives

The self-defeating agenda of partisan idiots

Congratulations partisan pundits and ignorant, unquestioning sheep of both parties. You’ve succeeded in turning the middle class on themselves.

How else could the babbling minions believe in the “America” they claim will be delivered by the brainless imbeciles in the candidates field?

Just look at what the rabid right-wing and their Tea Party (inbred) cousins believe in:

  • It is somehow better to give tax breaks to the wealthiest people in the country who don’t need it than to the other 98.7 percent of Americans who do;
  • Employment is strengthened by allowing corporations to outsource millions of American jobs overseas;
  • Close down American factories so companies can benefit tax advantages;
  • Oppose efforts to give small businesses assistance to rebuild and succeed;
  • Eliminate the home mortgage deduction but lower the corporate tax rate, estate tax, capital gains tax, and offshore banking tax;
  • Give obscene tax subsidies to big oil AND allow them to receive billions in tax refunds;
  • Crush unions and remove workers’ ability to even question their treatment by employers; Interfere with people’s voting if it’s in opposition to how they’d want them to vote; Not hold elected officials accountable for their actions or crimes unless they belong to the other political party;
  • Cut funding for Veterans care and make eligibility requirements more difficult to qualify for benefits;
  • Slash health care and minimize options for the people who need it most and can afford it least;
  • Make federal laws based on localized religious fears and beliefs;
  • Blame people who are unemployed for BEING unemployed instead of the company that moved their job overseas;
  • Prevent people from exercising the First Amendment rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution they
  • claim to unwaveringly support.

What worries me is that most of the people who support these asinine, backward and counter-productive ideas are also allowed to drive and handle sharp objects.

Posted by Gary St. Lawrence at June 15, 2011 5:58 PM
Comments
Comment #324512

Ask the federal government to help you with that, Gary St. Lawrence. It’s the only option you have left.

Posted by: Weary Willie at June 15, 2011 8:57 PM
Comment #324513

Don’t let j2t2 near it. He will just cave in and tell you to spend your money trying to fix something there’s no hope fixing.

Just give up, Gary St. Lawrence. Everyone else here on WatchBlog has.

Posted by: Weary Willie at June 15, 2011 8:59 PM
Comment #324520
Weary Willie wrote: Just give up, Gary St. Lawrence. Everyone else here on WatchBlog has.

So … what … you think that means you “win” because other people got fed up with your asinine, childish troll bait and stopped posting?

Give up … and you call OTHER people “frakkin’ cowards.”

Troll your feeble little brains out, WW.

I’ll be right here to continue slapping you silly with the facts you can’t bring yourself to deal with.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 16, 2011 12:09 AM
Comment #324527

It’s the tower of Babel thing, Gary. Hard to get people to agree on anything while gov’t, infrastructure and community keep sliding on down.

Now we are back into silly season, playing ping pong with the duopoly. We can recall when Bush and the repub’s had to go as they couldn’t create jobs. Now Obama has to go because he can’t create jobs, and I’m quite sure it will be no different in 2016.

Most folks just read through ‘jobless recovery’ without giving much thought to the words. Very few believers that the game plan is to make the US competitive by busting up the middle class and putting us on subsistance wages.

A couple of years of double dip just might get peoples attention trending to thoughts of a 3rd party with a different political attitude.

Say, we could just hang out and wait for the Asian Rim and EU to start sending foreign aid this way.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at June 16, 2011 10:11 AM
Comment #324552

Roy,
That’s a good, succinct summay of the situation: a jobless recovery that busts the middle class and puts most Americans on subsistence wages.

Posted by: phx8 at June 16, 2011 6:53 PM
Comment #324561


The large middle class in America is an artificial entity contrived by socialist unions and socialist, anti-free market legislation. It is in no way compatible with free market capitalism.

During the worst parts of the Great Depression, 50% of the people were doing alright and a large segment of them were voting against Roosevelt and the New Deal.

Today, many in the middle class don’t believe they or their children will be participants in the mass migration to the lower working classes. Many of them wholeheartedly support the changes that are occurring and those that don’t, really don’t have a choice in the matter, even if they do vote.

Posted by: jlw at June 16, 2011 7:52 PM
Comment #324564

gary

the tax argument is nonsense. the bottom %50 pay virtually nothing.

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

what you are arguing for is more redistribution through the tax code.

“Employment is strengthened by allowing corporations to outsource millions of American jobs overseas;”

you can’t stop them from outsourcing. you want to stop it? figure out how to make it more attractive to stay here.


“Blame people who are unemployed for BEING unemployed instead of the company that moved their job overseas;”

people can become unemployed for a host of reasons, including thier own actions. oh…and let’s completely forget about the gov’t role in driving away co.s through oppressive anti-business legislation, and taxation.

“Crush unions and remove workers’ ability to even question their treatment by employers;”

public employees should not be able to unionize period. private sector employees should not be forced to join a union as a condition of employment. reasonable labor laws will take care of the rest.


“Give obscene tax subsidies to big oil AND allow them to receive billions in tax refunds;”

we should not be subsidizing anyone that includes farmers, and co.s developing alternative enrgies. if they are viable eventually they will succeed on thier own. gov’t should not pick winners and losers.


“Eliminate the home mortgage deduction but lower the corporate tax rate, estate tax, capital gains tax, and offshore banking tax;”

who’s eliminated the home mortgage deduction? the others have to be looked at individually, and collectivly to determine thier effect on the business climate.

Posted by: dbs at June 16, 2011 9:16 PM
Comment #324574

Well dbs, I certainly hope you don’t drive a vehicle. That case of tunnel vision you have is particularly bad.

You’ve made my case perfectly.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 1:39 AM
Comment #324576

gary

WOW….that was an incredibly week response. please elaborate.

Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 8:34 AM
Comment #324577

“You’ve made my case perfectly”

Seems the only case you are making is that YOU know what is best for everybody and all who disagree with you are self defeating idiots. Which is nothing more than the typical partisan rhetoric you pretend to be against.

Posted by: kctim at June 17, 2011 9:37 AM
Comment #324582

dbs, you cite verbatim far right wing/Fox News soundbites about literally every point you pulled out of my story, and you accuse *ME* of typical partisan rhetoric?

Better check the hypocrisy account. You’re overdrawn.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 12:28 PM
Comment #324584

gary

better go back and read who actually accused you of partisan rhetiric.

rather repeat the ( blah blah blah fox news, right wing talking points ) line, why not adress the actual comment, and tell me why you disagree.

let’s start here shall we

you said

“It is somehow better to give tax breaks to the wealthiest people in the country who don’t need it than to the other 98.7 percent of Americans who do;”

go back and look at who actually pays taxes, (i provided a link) and then continue with that bulls#@t about who isn’t paying thier fair share. upsidown pyramids are extremely unstable, and no way to structure a tax base.

BTW, the source of those numbers is the IRS.


Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 12:52 PM
Comment #324586

Gary, that would be me, not DBS.
And I have not been back long enough to be overdrawn on anything. In fact, I am just getting started :)

Posted by: kctim at June 17, 2011 1:01 PM
Comment #324589

kctim

“I have not been back long enough to be overdrawn on anything. In fact, I am just getting started :)”

good to have you back. it’s been awhile. hope things are well.

Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 1:23 PM
Comment #324597
dbs wrote: “go back and look at who actually pays taxes, (i provided a link) and then continue with that bulls#@t about who isn’t paying thier fair share. upsidown pyramids are extremely unstable, and no way to structure a tax base.

BTW, the source of those numbers is the IRS.”


Yeah, funny how the right wing always wants to quote what the BASIC TAX RATE is and not the EFFECTIVE TAX RATE.

The BASIC TAX RATE on the upper-most 2 percent of the American wealth population is 38.2%. But what is the EFFECTIVE TAX RATE they pay when all the loopholes, deductions, exemptions, deferments, credits, shelters and other dodges are added to the equation?

My personal BASIC TAX RATE is 28.1 percent. But after I do my long form with the legal exemptions and deductions I’m allowed, my EFFECTIVE TAX RATE is 13.4 percent.

And I don’t qualify for even ONE EIGHTH of the deductions and reductions that someone making more than the $5 Million mark does.

So why don’t the wealth-apologists ever want to discuss the EFFECTIVE TAX RATE?

Because the EFFECTIVE TAX RATE is the reality. The BASIC TAX RATE is the myth that lets them keep lying and deceiving people who are too stupid or unquestioning to know the difference.

“The wealthy pay 38 percent” is *TECHNICALLY* a true statement. Just like “We’re making progress in Iraq” is *TECHNICALLY* a true statement, as long as you don’t allow yourself to get mired down with all the inconvenient mitigating facts and realities that prove it to be a grossly misleading lie.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 6:27 PM
Comment #324599

American workers are now competing with billions of other unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled workers around the world. The wealthy nations have done a very good job, over a period of many years, of lifting other nations up to our standards of eduction and technology making them more competitive with us in the jobs market.

We still have many advantages over these emerging nations while they have the advantage of wages that are still lower than ours. Rather than lowering our wages to compete, there are many and better ways to approach increasing our employment situation.

It is time to treat our competitors as just that and to stop fueling their growth at our expense.

Beyond just blaming our corporations for seeking profits as the cause for jobs leaving our country, and punishing them, would anyone like to suggest ways to entice jobs back to the US.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 17, 2011 6:44 PM
Comment #324606

gary

those numbers are provided by the internal revenue service, and to the best of my knowlege are based on total revenue collected by income bracket. where is the lie?

Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 8:43 PM
Comment #324607

gary

“as long as you don’t allow yourself to get mired down with all the inconvenient mitigating facts and realities that prove it to be a grossly misleading lie.”

what would those facts be?


Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 8:46 PM
Comment #324608


Many wealthier Americans make substantial amounts of their income from long-term capital gains which are currently being taxed at 15%.

You have to hand it to the conservative media. Their disingenuous talking points are provided, nearly verbatim, as honest debate by their listeners.

These poor oppressed corporations that have been making record profits nearly year after year. Who have reaped trillions in profits from the sacrifices of our sons and daughters in wars of asset acquisition and in ‘supplying the troops with the tools of the trade.’

“public employees should not be allowed to unionize period.” Obviously a shortened version, for current propaganda purposes, of the whole agenda.

To finish the thought, in a capitalist free market system, there is no room for collective bargaining. An employer has the right to hire or fire anyone, for any reason. An employer has the sole right to determine the wages of employees. The employee has the right to negotiate with the employer, and the right to accept the wages being offered and the working conditions or seek employment elsewhere.

Unions, collective bargaining, the minimum wage, and many other laws and regulations, foisted on business, are nothing more than state sanctioned socialism and have no place in a free market economy.

Then there is the middle class. Who could possibly think that our new service economy, especially with the philosophy of right to work replacing collective bargaining, is going to support our large middle class?

For me, the sad think is that many of those who support this right wing economic philosophy, benefited from and their families benefited from many of the things they now condemn as oppression of wealth and it’s right to do business.

This is just a partial list of what the right wants to foist on America.

As for the Democrats, what they stand for is dependent on whether you listen to their rhetoric or observe their actions.

Action wise, the Democrats have been slowly but affective weakening the progressive and New Deal legislation. On deregulation, on enforcement of regulation, on energy policy, on tax policy, on war policy, on health care, on immigration, on outsourcing, etc., they have consistently sided with corporate interests and in many ways, against the interests of their constituents and the American people as a whole.

It is as if Democrats are saying to Republicans, we are with you, but you have to understand that we have to move slowly. We can’t force everything down the people throats in short order.

Posted by: jlw at June 17, 2011 8:46 PM
Comment #324611

jlw

income tax is derived from the fruits of ones labor, or work if you will. capital gains is derived from income on capital already earned and reinvested. raising the capital gains rate would only encourage investors to hold on to thier money as opposed to reinvesting it in the economy.

Posted by: d at June 17, 2011 9:10 PM
Comment #324614

(Reuters) - Tax and accounting loopholes that largely benefit rich taxpayers and companies cost the government $20 billion a year even as the pay gap between chief executives and employees has widened, two groups said on Monday.

The biggest loss comes from a “stock option accounting double standard” that allows corporations paying executives stock options to deduct more than their actual expenses, they said.

For example, when UnitedHealth Group Inc paid CEO William McGuire 9 million stock options, it put on its financial statement that the compensation cost the company nothing, according to the Institute for Policy Studies and the group United for a Fair Economy.

But it claimed a tax deduction of $317.7 million, the groups said.

That practice alone costs the U.S. government $10 billion a year, the groups said.

A practice known as deferred compensation — which allows executives to defer an unlimited amount of pay — costs the government $80.6 million a year, while other loopholes bring the total lost tax revenue to $20 billion, the groups said.

The report said large U.S. companies paid CEOs an average $10.5 million in compensation last year, 344 times what the average worker earned. That gap is expected to grow as the industries adding workers are those with the biggest pay gaps, the groups said.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 9:33 PM
Comment #324615

Here dbs … side by side. So simple even you can’t refute them.

Tax Breaks for the Rich Versus Budget Cuts

Dismiss, deny and obfuscate away.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 9:42 PM
Comment #324616

gary

so what you’re saying is if we closed these “loopholes” we could take even more from the top 1%.

Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 9:42 PM
Comment #324617

gary

“side by side. So simple even you can’t refute them.”

ya, you’re right the people who receive benefits from these gov’t programs have more right to that money than the people who earned it. i understand competely.

Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 9:48 PM
Comment #324618

And a little more food for the thought-starved among us.


Tax Rate for Richest 400 Taxpayers Plummeted in Recent Decades, Even as Their Pre-Tax Incomes Skyrocketed

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 9:50 PM
Comment #324619

Okay dbs, I’m done fencing with you.

You’ve swallowed the far right wing propaganda hook, line and sinker and there’s no deprogramming you, no matter what facts, logic and common sense are thrown at you.

You just continue praising and protecting the wealthy and the politicians they own, and they’ll keep screwing you seven ways from Sunday.

Being ignorant is not a fault. STAYING ignorant is.

Posted by: Gary St. Lawrence at June 17, 2011 9:55 PM
Comment #324620

gary

“You’ve swallowed the far right wing propaganda hook, line and sinker and there’s no deprogramming you, no matter what facts, logic and common sense are thrown at you.”

you’re right. i believe the money that people earn belongs to them, not the gov’t. how misguided is that.

Posted by: dbs at June 17, 2011 10:04 PM
Comment #324622

Thanks for the opening Royal Flush,

First, let’s do the 3rd party thing with a mission to abolish corporate personhood law and implement REAL campaign finance reform.

Next, let’s bust up the big ones, monopolies, etc and by so doing create numerous other businesses and lotsa new jobs.

Then, implement a flat rate income tax void of all deductions. And, don’t just get rid of corporate welfare, do away with corporate taxation ((only after CP has been abolished)). Talk about redistributing corporations around the country!!

Follow up by implementing a VAT for import/export so we can bring balance to our trade deficit.

Then concentrate on entrepreneurship, innovation and hard work to establish new companies that can now compete with the big monopolies void of their corporate welfare. Use anti-trust law to prevent the monopolies from buying out the newly created companies.

Sort of like redistribution of wealth but just among the corporations.

That took all of about 7 minutes Royal Flush. What’s next?

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at June 17, 2011 10:45 PM
Comment #324633

gary

even with the loopholes, @ 40% of all income tax revenue is collected from the top 1%. i’de say that’s more than thier fair share. you then post a table that shows gov’t entitlements at risk because we don’t force them to pay an even bigger portion. where do you or anyone else for that matter get the idea that the money they are allowed to keep belongs to gov’t entitlements. as if those on the public teet have more right to that money than those who earned it.

Posted by: dbs at June 18, 2011 11:08 AM
Comment #324635

You’re very welcome Roy and thanks for your ideas. Others are welcome also.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 18, 2011 12:32 PM
Comment #324636

roy

“Then, implement a flat rate income tax void of all deductions”

what do you think about the fair tax? i think there is two versions, the original,and the amendended version that failed in congress. i’m not sure which this one is. i like the idea that you get 100% of what you earn, and are taxed on you transactions. i would actually prefer that to a flat tax, as the fair tax would eliminate the IRS. imagine the tax savings in eliminating that monster all together.

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/ntus-fairtax-information-hub.html


i also like the idea of a VAT or import tax on goods imported from countries like china and india with labor costs we can’t even come close to. if we offset that savings with one of those taxes, and then create an eviornment that fosters growth of business, and jobs here.

Posted by: dbs at June 18, 2011 1:16 PM
Comment #324637

From what I read here we have to give in to our republican/corporate overlords then we can buy our rice and beans from the company store. That way the true hero’s you know the “job creators” can keep all that money they work so hard for.

Posted by: Jeff at June 18, 2011 1:33 PM
Comment #324639

dbs, several countries have adopted a version of flat tax and they seem to be doing ok. Pennsylvania has a pure flat tax system but I don’t know whether it is favorable or not.
I, fer shure, don’t have a handle on all the in’s and out’s of tax systems so I will offer a couple of url’s that I believe provides reliable information.

This first one addresses some of the potential problems with a fair tax system.

http://mises.org/daily/1814

And, this next one, from d.a.n’s website, gives good detail as to the preference of a flat tax.

http://one-simple-idea.com/TaxSystemReform.htm

Dan provides some comparisons of tax systems at the bottom of the url page.

Yes, it’s hard to understand why the Corpocracy hasn’t implemented a VAT for US trade as some 143 nations rely on a VAT to keep the playing field level. Doing so would go a long way towards bringing our trade deficit into balance. The only rational I can come up with is that the Corpocracy is purposefully giving a break to developing nations in getting them up to speed relative to globalisation.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at June 18, 2011 4:03 PM
Comment #324640


Those with the skill sets to play the game have advantage over those that don’t.

Those who set the rules of the game have the most advantage.

Example, Larry Summers made tremendous profits off of the housing bubble. He did far better than most. He was the chief architect of the housing derivative. He was also it’s greatest defender. Summers, Greenspan, Rubin, Shelby, Dodd and others, drove whistle blowers out of the government and the private sector, destroyed careers to protect their cash cow.

Like other species in the animal kingdom, most humans are not hard wired for deep thought. We are programed to think and act quickly, as part of our survival mechanism. We seek advantage over others and if we get it, we can reason why we deserve to have it. Survival of the fittest.


Posted by: jlw at June 18, 2011 4:25 PM
Comment #324655

“where do you or anyone else for that matter get the idea that the money they are allowed to keep belongs to gov’t entitlements.”

dbs,

The issue isn’t government entitlements. The entitlements are funded by the payroll taxes not income tax. The rich get a break with their payroll taxes capped at a level just above $100,000.00 per year. It is a regressive tax.

Since 1983, the payroll taxes have higher than necessary to create a surplus to address anticipated future increases due to baby boomer retirements. The major problem with the entitlements is inflation in health care costs that have more than doubled general inflation in the economy. That single factor threatens the entitlement fix of 1983.

An interesting fact is that the surplus payroll taxes in the trust funds are, by law, invested in US special Treasury bonds. The net result of that requirement is that the general fund gets a cash supplement each year to the tune of amount of the surplus. That means that the government does not have to tax as high or seek funds on the open market. The consequence is that it has been a hidden subsidy for those paying income tax.

Posted by: Rich at June 18, 2011 9:39 PM
Comment #324663

rich

“The entitlements are funded by the payroll taxes not income tax.”

social security is funded by payroll taxes. other entitlements are not.

“The rich get a break with their payroll taxes capped at a level just above $100,000.00 per year. It is a regressive tax.”

and the rich never actually get to collect on the taxes paid. that would mean they fund a retirement system they don’t actually need.

the surplus funds from social security taxes are spent in the general fund.

Posted by: dbs at June 18, 2011 11:36 PM
Comment #324733

I love the idea of a flat tax. It’s fair across the board. However, if we were to do that, it would be disastrous. the need for CPAs, tax attorneys, income tax preparers, et. al would be seriously drop. So many people make their living sifting through those ridiculously confusing and abundant tax laws.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at June 20, 2011 1:26 PM
Comment #324736

Yes, a flat tax seems to have many merits. Form on one page and instructions on the back. Wouldn’t repeal the IRS amendment but would whack it way back and, like you say, Spinny Liberal, would cause many associated professionals to find more productive employment. A good thing, IMO.

But, be assured, we won’t be getting a flat tax through the Corpocracy. Only possible way would be through a 3rd party. The status quo is appears safe for the moment.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at June 20, 2011 2:20 PM
Comment #324761

Why are we upset over taxes guys? We pay less than most all of the developed countries. At what point do we turn into an underdeveloped country listening to the teapubs telling us we pay to much?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/10/ten-charts-showing-how-low-american-taxes_n_875067.html#s290495&title=2_US_Taxes

Posted by: j2t2 at June 20, 2011 10:25 PM
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