Third Party & Independents Archives

David,

It’s not clear to me why you paired the doors. What is the difference between door #5 and door #6?

Other than that, a good analysis of the politics of Rush et al, and IMHO, Libertarianism. It is a logical shortcut that leads to no where.

When you have a major party advocating ignorance, or ignoring fiscal realities, the outcomes are a bit scary.

gergle, three pairs of doors equals the 3 options available to address dissatisfaction with the way the United States is run, exit, change, or overthrow the United States.

Education quality (with roots of the problem resting in income inequalities in the extremes), and deficits and debt, are the two unresolved issues which can bring this nation to its knees, and that right soon, meaning in the next 5 to 15 years. Education can address the political extremism and a host of other social problems.

But, only a strong and widely growing anti-incumbent electorate movement can address the deficit and debt issue. Raising taxes is not in the Right’s playbook, and cutting social assistance programs is not in the Left’s playbook. Only the voters can force BOTH corrupt parties to taking the responsible action of raising taxes and cutting spending in dramatic ways.

David,

I think I need a diagram. Man. I feel thick this morning.

On the subject of fiscal reform, I read this with interest:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/08/AR2010040805132.html?hpid=topnews

I’m not sure the fire analogy works, but I like the idea of insuring risk, if we can determine risk. It seems to me that was a piece of the problem, a belief that risk was insured already.

DR
A strong anti-incumbant electoral movement may well put the party playing up these goombas back in the control of congress. Way to go.We should emphasise critical thinking skills in education reform.

I’m having a little trouble understanding your analogy. Are you saying incumbents need to be voted out? If so, why is your attack only on the right? Are you saying those on the right do not have the intelligence to vote correctly? What do you think of the intelligence level of a complete voting block on the left who thinks only of what handout is for them. The ones who think they will get free housing, free gas, free medical and its all coming from Obama’s stash?

I know the MSM wants to make those on the right (i.e. Tea Party), look as if they are violent, but in reality, there have been threats of violence and actual acts of violence from the left too.

I saw that just today, Supak is bailing out of the next election. The reports are already coming from the left that it is the result of the violent threats from the Tea Party. But, in reality, Stupak comes from a 50/50 district in the UP of MI; an area with a large catholic population, who were really upset with him over his switch vote. He would have had a very hard time getting re-elected.

Beretta9,

I think he discussed that there were radical leftist movements in the sixties, and today there are still elements like ELF, and anarchists protesting things like the NWO.

The truth is, as Neopolitano stated in a non-PC way, but still truthful, there is a greater threat from disaffected right wingers today.

The protests seem to be about equal, left and right. But, violence has mostly gone to the right. That, in itself is not so much of a problem as that the leadership on the right seems to be fostering and/or advocating violence among its mainstream members…by not speaking out sharply and firmly against the clap-trap of the wing-nuts, they are, in truth, endorsing it.

It still boils down to demographics…the numbers of white conservatives is shrinking, but the party of white men cannot open the tent to groups with the numbers to make the problem go away. Joseph Heller described that conundrum best.

I read each of David’s links and I found nothing linking them to the Tea Party. These people have not been convicted of crimes, they are merely charged. And I would agree, there are crackpots everywhere. So who knows what goes on in their minds? Are you suggesting the so-called Christian Militia group in MI is representative of all Christians? Does Bill Ayres represent all those on the left? Could we say that all liberals are a threat to the nation and are potential terrorist bombers simply because Bill Ayres did so? I don’t think so. Where are the links talking of the threats against Republicans, or the mention of bricks being thrown thru the windows of Republican Congressional offices?

http://www.thehotjoints.com/2008/12/06/ny-times-publishes-op-ed-terrorist-from-bill-ayres/

The first 6 chapters of David’s post is simply a hypothetical and are not based upon any facts.

Concerning the “revisionist history” in the Texas textbooks: was it legal for these people to question what was in the textbooks? The Texas Board of Education is elected and if the people of Texas are unhappy with them, they can always vote them out. I simply do not understand the logic of the left. How many times have we been told that the Democrats won the election and they are in charge? We have also been told, since the Democrats are in power, they have the authority to govern as they wish, without objection from the right. What we see in Texas is the exact same thing, but from a different prospective. The conservatives control the Board of Education, therefore the have a right to make decisions based upon the fact they have been elected. If Texas does not like their decisions, then they can be voted out. Here is a quote:

“In 2009, the Board received criticism from more than fifty scientific organizations over an attempt to weaken science standards on evolution.[6] In addition, Texas House Speaker Joe Straus, who help change the Texas Board from an appointed body to an elected body said the government should “take a look” at the structure of the Board, maybe changing it to a nonpartisan or appointed board if “the board is not getting their job done and they’re not pleasing the Legislature or the citizens, then we ought to take a thorough look at what they are doing.”[7]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Education_Agency

The argument that should be made is; since the voted Board is in disagreement with liberals, the liberals want to change the rules to have an appointed board instead of elected. Is this wrong? Is it wrong for Obama to by-pass the Congress and use executive rules or un-elected czars to achieve his agenda?

I am involved in the Tea Party and I have many friends who are also involved. They love this nation and all they want is for government and politicians to live up to the oath they took to “protect and defend the Constitution”. Is this too much to ask? David’s statement, “The minority party will increasingly champion obstructionism and wink and nod at the extremists opposing the majority party. Down that road lies civil unrest, civil war, or revolution, and eventually the slogan; “I’d rather be dead than American”, is simply not true. We have the right to speak up and protest peacefully. Your idea of obstructionism is our idea of free speech. Are the protestors of the war, or were the protestors of the Vietnam War, obstructionists, or were they exercising free speech.

America has been successful because we believe the same rights belong to all citizens. How can you claim some rights belong to the left, but not to the right?

The complaints about the Texas School Board and its changing history, is that because they buy so many books it also influences books published for normal folks. If it just kept Texas children in the dark ages, you would not hear half the complaints. But why should Colorado, which doesn’t have the buying power to provide its own take on history, have to send its own children into the wilderness without raising a fuss? Ultimately Texas will out, so these complaints are just that. American History is toast.

If America lasts long enough to overcome this tripe, one day we may gain a little in education again.

I’ve lived through some pretty bad times, and have been lucky enough to have lived through some pretty progressive times. In a few decades America proved it could out educate every other nation, and we thrived and became revered among nations. Texas is helping us drop faster to the bottom of the barrel, where we’d been heading from Reagan on (maybe with a little bump during the nineties). Perhaps getting older isn’t so bad after all…I may not live to see the final degrading drop.

Just out of curiosity, how does American history or an alternative view of evolution throw our youth back to the dark ages? What effect does this have on where we are in the world “barrel”?

david

it would appear someone here is overly paranoid, but it’s not the right wing extremist. it’s funny how anyone who doesn’t tow the progressive line, or speaks passionately against the progressive movement is painted with the same broad brush. they say power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. the obama presidency, and current democrat controlled congress are glaring examples of this. good luck in november, you’re going to need it.

“I am involved in the Tea Party and I have many friends who are also involved. They love this nation and all they want is for government and politicians to live up to the oath they took to “protect and defend the Constitution”. Is this too much to ask?”

IMHO Beretta it is not enough to ask. Here in it’s entirety is the oath of office our elected representatives swore to when they took office. As we can see their responsibility does not end at “protect and defend the constitution” it begins at protect and defend the constitution and goes from there.

““I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.””

I’m surprised some well meaning liberal has not sought to get the phrase “So help me God” removed, in the interest of seperation of church and state.

I think the main thought of the oath is to support and defend the constitution. If they are not willing to do that, the rest is moot.

So help me God, Allah, Yahweh, Buddha, Vishnu, Baal, Beelzebub…it should probably read, ‘on my mother’s good name’.

I think it’s important not to ghetto those on the right. It comes across as elitist.

There has been very little violence, and much of the reported violence has been trumped up.

As a moderate Reublican I am getting pretty sick of the left automatically using the race card as a definition of anyone who opposes the recent health care bill, or the President.

It’s only nature to try to paint labels on the opposition. To define the opposition.

I am interested in the Tea Party movement. They are for less government and low taxes as I am. They are offended by the dramatic increase in the size and scope of government as I am. They are concerned that this rapid increase in government will hasten the decline of our country as I am.
They are worried about what kind of lives their children and grandchildren as I am.

I must be a racist right winger as well, because I want limited government.

Here is an interesting poll:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2010/tea_party_48_obama_44

More Americans believe the tea party is closer to their views than Obama!!!

To the right who feel threatened:

Education is a passing along of facts, in context. Changing things like removing Jefferson as a part of the enlightenment and adding Thomas Aquinas is a religious spin that doesn’t reflect American history. Facts is Facts.

I am involved in the Tea Party and I have many friends who are also involved. They love this nation and all they want is for government and politicians to live up to the oath they took to “protect and defend the Constitution”. Is this too much to ask?”

So what makes you different and special? I have many friends who are progressives that love this nation and blah, blah, blah…..

The difference between waving a flag and pretending patriotism and patriotism is whether you support and are aware of the history and all the values that have been passed down through the generations, or whether you look for specialized issues, wistful distorted memories, and promote facts or fiction.

The most elitist party that has payed homage to a power elite,and derives it’s primary funding from such, that cynically preys upon those with a poor historical knowledge, is the right wing leaning Republican Party. The Tea Party represents a faction of this group. They will be folded into the Republican party despite their claims of independence.

Those here cheered as George Bush was elected, and found to their surprise that he did not serve their interests, despite his rhetoric. He never represented their interests. He is from one of the most power elite families in the country. He now lives in wealthy enclave of Dallas, a midwestern city of moneyed bankers. He is not a cowboy, despite wearing jeans, hat and boots. He will continue to advance the elite’s interests.

The tea partiers will find themselves disappointed no matter who wins the next election. They will find themselves losing out again. That is, except the wealthiest and most powerful among them, that are manipulating them.

The money has been spent. The taxes will come. The slippage of American stature will continue. You have been sold by both parties over the last forty years. You will pay the cost.

This doesn’t mean that America is over, or lost. It simply means this is more than about race, more than about cutting taxes, more than about being “mavericky”. If you choose not to understand either our place in history, or the issues of wealth and power, you will continually be shocked and disappointed.

The Democratic party, has issues with wanting to socialize economics in ways that do not work. Sadly, so has the Republican party,in the opposite way, as we saw with economic meltdown and “deregulation”.

We have a health care bill that is a bastardized version of both party’s political trades that ends up serving the monopolies of healthcare mostly.

We have done nothing about global warming, whether you believe it or not. We will likely do little. We have done nothing to change our dependence on foreign oil. We have done little to address long term debt.

Rather than read the diatribe of the party lines, I would suggest looking at the intelligentsia of both parties to find answers to these issues. They don’t diverge much.

I live in Texas, and am well aquainted with Bushes and the Republican party here. They have done a great disservice to Texans. Texas has among the lowest graduation rates in the country. Politicians here use racism, classism, and yee-haw politics to rally the ignorant, and to advance the wealthy business class. This is the politics of the Tea Party, or at least where it is headed. Those who are looking for an intelligent argument from it’s leadership, will not find it, as it folds into the Republican party.

Craig,

Puleeeze!?! You know better than that. Most Americans have no idea what Tea Baggers stand for…or against (except if it is from the President)…hell, most Tea Baggers don’t know what they stand for…or against (except if it is from the President).

Ask any three Baggers what they are for and you’ll get three different answers…ask them what they are against and they’ll say…hmmm…”I’m agin’ that lily-livered pinko Socialist/Nazi/monkey/Commie bastid, that’s whut I’m agin’”

PS:

The posters here on this blog site are a pretty astute bunch…even the ones we don’t agree with. If you got a readout from each of them/us, you’d never put together a cohesive policy plan for the Tea Party.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W57aBMYKvU

Kenny Rogers is spinning in his grave. :) and you killed him with a tin ear.

gergle, astutely and well said. The parties play the public like pawns in a chess game for the end of determining who will sit and who will stand at the end of the next round of musical chairs of power and wealth accrual and distribution.

Pawns make great soldiers for those who reap the profits from their blood and expendable souls. Democracy is not about kings and pawns. Americans pretend at democracy and what their leaders define it as. True democracy is about political equality and protection of individual rights from exploitation by those in power. Our Constitution was designed to express and educate to this potential for the United States. Republocrat politicians serve not these ends, but their own.

President Obama has extended the unconstitutional and illegal power to target an American citizen for death without due process in a foreign land for his participation in a terrorist organization. It is a step too far, and should have Democrats shaking in their civil rights boots. But, except for Chris Matthews a couple days ago addressing it on HardBall, I can find no media coverage of this story at all. Must not be any advertising profits in this story, and if you think about it for 30 seconds, the reason why becomes obvious.

Tom Coburn says something intelligent, even when he acts like an ass most of the time.

http://www.capitolnewsconnection.org/?q=node/14443

David,

Thanks, I was aware of the story, but I read lots of oddball news sources. Thanks for your well written pieces, as usual.

It certainly should be a civil rights issue, but given the history of murder from the oval office over our history, not unusual. I think with the democratization of news it’s becoming harder for the alphabet soup of agencies to hide this kind of covert action. Like the assassination of the Rueters reporters in Iraq, exposed by wikileaks.

I think I understand your door image, but am still considering submitting a drawing. It’s a little trippy in imagery to me, sort of torus like. I don’t think I could have come up with that imagery. I’m obsessive and a bit pedantic about that kind of modeling, I guess.:)

Craig
Rassmusen push polls with the aim of producing results that favor the Republican Party. They are no longer anything but one more propaganda mill. If you want real information instead of rigged results that make you feel good try Gallup and a few others.

Tea Party? There are plenty of good reasons for wearing hoods and burning crosses besides being rascist,you know. I am just sick of the race card being played all the time. After all ,somebody has to protect the white women!

gergle,yeah, upon re-reading the analogy, I realize I could have made the article more readable using several others, instead. I rather like the rat in the maze image though as it appeared in my head. Imagery in my head, in this case, did not translate as clearly to the written the word. Yours is a valid critique of the analogy. And it reminds me of the college writing class maxim, ‘Write for the reader. Otherwise, why write at all?’

Marysdude:

Instead of this attempt to get the right into a box in order to dismis them. I would like to see some polling data that shows who is most in touch with american values.

We can put up Sarah Palin, Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Gingrich and Al Gore.

All are or were elected officials. And then see who the extremists are.

It is so typical in debate systems to attempt to dismis those who we disagree with by name calling.

Where is the violence? How many have been hurt by the violence? Recently the Black caucus walked through the Tea Party movement on their way to vote for the Health Care Bill. It was said that they had to endure the “N” word many times. Since then a man has put up $100,000 for proof to be donated to the united negro college fund. With all the tapes rolling no one could find a single case.

They are still racist of course, there is just no proof. After all they are mostly white, conservative and oppose health care.

People get angry when you vote against the majority of American opinion. Attempting to be label a group is simply an attempt to self justfify.

The left has revealed themselves for who they are and for what they want to do. The larger public, and particularly the people most interested in the future of politics for their children are, in my opinion quite rightly, frightened by this. As a result the left is losing control of the public debate and that is what gets us these shrill, paranoid articles about how scary right-wingers are.

When “right-wingers” gather you can’t find video evidence of the widespread bigoted displays the left claims even after they attempted to incide them. The left then ostracizes members of minority communities who participate for believing they have freedom of thought and speech. When the left gathers in large numbers, as at international trade gatherings there are riots.

I’ll take my wingnuts over yours.

Lee,

You already have…and, that may be the biggest problem…you own them now.

PS:

When was the last time you heard a Democratic leader, or one of the posters here defend PETA blood spillers or rioting thugs at financial meetings?

When was the last time you heard a Republican leader or a poster here defend Tea Baggers, or abortion doctor killers, or people who…ah, poop? Oh, two minutes ago? Oh!

We defend the Tea Partizans because there is no evidence they, as a class, embrace any of the extremist methods of which you complain. There are rare radicals among them as there are in any movement. The left, ever embracing any rhetorical lever they can, tries to paint the rare radicals as the face of the movement and we know better.

We do intend to mount a revolution- at the ballot box in November- at which time we will overthrow the current group of real radicals that have taken the levers of power in Washington by false pretenses. Peaceful revolutions are what really terrify the left.

I do not defend killers. Period.

Lee
Where is this leftist radicalism?Its not in the Whitehouse or Capitol Hill. The HCR law is decidedly moderate,similar to the proposal the Reps proposed in response to Hilarycare. The START treaty is something Reagan would be proud of. Changing strategy in Afgahistan? Trying to re-regulate banks like they were under Eisenhower to prevent another collapse?The stimulus and bailouts? Nearly every other G7 country has had to do that and any other administartion would have done the same.You guys are just throwing out these terms that have no basis like if you say them over and over you might create some legitimate reason for opposing BHO so vehemently and then get all huffy when anyone points out the real reason.The bulk of the TP cannot get over the fact that the US is no longer a white nation.BHO sybolizes that. They feel their position of privilige is threatened and are reacting. Their complaints are hollow. Taxes? Most just got a tax cut and more available.How many are collecting government benefits,SS,medicare,unemploymeny insurance? Government growth? Where were they when GWB expanded government? Deficits? Same,where were they under GWB?Out side of the inherited deficit ,recession loss of revenue and the cost for keeping the economy from utter failure,the BHO administration have not been big spenders. Overt rascism is considered impolite and bad tactic these days but rascism does indeed lay at the heart of the TP movement.

Lee,

Quotations of right winger tea party supporters from CBS News to Stupak in faxes and voice mail:

“Congressman Stupak, you baby-killing mother f***er… I hope you bleed out your a**, got cancer and die, you mother f***er,” one man says in a message to Stupak.

“There are millions of people across the country who wish you ill,” a woman says in a voicemail, “and all of those thoughts that are projected on you will materialize into something that’s not very good for you.”

CBS News also obtained copies of faxes sent to Stupak, and reported they include racial epithets used in reference to President Obama and show pictures of nooses with Stupak’s name.

CNN photo of Sept’s Tea Party demonstration in Wash. D.C.

They aren’t very educated or bright, either. One Tea Party sign read: “One Hugh Mistake America”. Misspelling huge and do they really mean America is a huge mistake? Guess so.

Same photo has another sign reading: “No taxation without representation”. Duh! There is a Congress, and everyone elects their representatives. Ergo, taxation is with representation. Has been the case for over 230 years. Or, do they mean no taxation as long as Democrats are voted into office by the majority? If that is the case, then this sign is clearly anti-democracy and America.

Another sign reads, “Don’t steal from Medicare to support socialized medicine.” Truly idiotic, wholly undereducated, and an expression of anger which understands nothing of its target. Another reads, “No Amensty”

And the examples of lack of education, understanding, and anger without basis in reality or fact, are many more. A quick read of history demonstrates such ignorant and undereducated persons are easily duped and manipulated into activism of hate and opposition, on the Left and Right.

What I see in these signs and demonstrations is a partisan hatred aimed at the people who elected Democrats. But, lest any of these dullards forget, the Republicans were as bad or worse in hefting trillions of dollars of new taxes on future generations, refusing to govern within their means, and the unjust and unfounded and unnecessary killing of over 100 thousand people in a little no threat country fiefdom called Iraq.

What they are fundamentally angry at is the democratic process which elected Democrats as a majority. The Right hates democracy, when they are the minority. There is no reason to believe the Left would not hate democracy as well if they were the perpetual minority party throughout this nation’s history. But, that kind of response is immature, ill-informed, and undereducated. And such mobs of immature, ill-informed, and undereducated pose a real and palpable threat to the society, as evidenced by the acts of violence in word and deed mounting from the hands of right-wing extremists.

Lee, the WB software appears to not be accepting photos in the comments. The photos can be viewed here, and here.

There are many groups that come together at any kind of rally. Is it certain that all these pictures are part of the TP movement, or is it possible they belong to another group? Do we know for sure?

Secondly, if we were going to condemn for spelling errors, there would be a lot of condemnations on the pages of WB. Even with spell check programs, some people make mistakes.

Yup, we are working on the perfect tower of Babel. Hope it comes in under cost. IMO, the TEA Party lost it’s momentum and purpose by kissing up to the Rep’s/Palin, etc. Making it much more likely that O’ can garner approx 35% of the electorate in 2012. Like the rest of the country, the TEA Party is a tower of Babel itself.

IMO, any movement, no matter how successful at the ballot box, will come to naught without first addressing the money influence in politics and founded in some kind of unifying policy or memorandum of understanding. Otherwise, just more folks walking around blind.

Here is a real good analogy of the current Corpocratic-Socialistic government we now enjoy:

Fifty Years of Math 1957 - 2007(in the USA )

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this? Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit ?

2. Teaching Math In 1960s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

3… Teaching Math In 1970s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990s

A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it’s ok. )

6. Teaching Math In 2009

Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80. Cuanto dinero ha hecho?

Here is an event that, IMO, has some unifying significance:

TAHLEQUAH, Okla. (AP) — Former Cherokee Nation Chief Wilma Mankiller, one of the few women to ever lead a major tribe, matched strength with a humbleness that made her approachable, the nation’s current chief said Saturday.
Chief Chad Smith spoke at a memorial service for Mankiller that drew hundreds of tribe members and 170 tribal, state and federal leaders. Mankiller, one of the most visible American Indian leaders in recent years, died Tuesday at age 64 after a bout with pancreatic cancer.

“Wilma Mankiller was a patriot for the Cherokee Nation,” Smith said. “Her strength was absolute humility. That humility made her approachable rather than aloof … and made her lead rather than follow.”

Maybe some of the leaders we have today ought to follow her example Roy.

David:

This is an excellent article. The analysis is terrific. I’m not sure that getting rid of incumbents would solve this problem. The new guys could be just as bad as the old guys.

Education, however, is probably the best approach. The trouble is we don’t have a handle on how to educate the disaffected. We must get educators involved in finding a way.

Roy Ellis:

I loved the math example. I worked in a drug store as a kid and advanced to the job of ringing up the items bought. We had one of those big old cash registers. It was mechanical and not electric. We had to figure the sales tax from a chart on the counter and sometimes add luxury tax for some items. It is hilarious; because today’s kids push the button with a picture of a big mac or fries and it’s true, if you try to help them by giving exact change. They are overwhelmed.

Paul said:

“Education, however, is probably the best approach. The trouble is we don’t have a handle on how to educate the disaffected. We must get educators involved in finding a way”

Yes, Paul, why don’t we pump more billions into education? That should fix the problem.

If we haven’t figured out by now, how to educate the disaffcted, we never will. You liberals have a one track mind.

Yes Paul, you should solve the education problem the conservative way…stand back and hope it doesn’t kick…given long enough, maybe it’ll just go away…nah, it’ll solve itself the free market way, if there is enough demand, a supplier will show up to provide, at a profit of course, and only to those who can afford it. The rest don’t matter anyway. How would that work out in the long run, you ask? Three multi-trillionaires and the rest of us.

“Is it certain that all these pictures are part of the TP movement, or is it possible they belong to another group? Do we know for sure?”

Beretta isn’t it hard to argue that with the video DAvid linked to showing these people in action? How sure do we need to be, as sure as the tea baggers are about Obama and healthcare or more sure than the tea baggers are that Obama was born in Kenya despite the forged birth certificate.

david

““Congressman Stupak, you baby-killing mother f***er… I hope you bleed out your a**, got cancer and die, you mother f***er,” one man says in a message to Stupak.”

gee david i guess this proves it. all those who are opposed to the progessive movent are violent extremists. thanks for enlightening me. still painting with that extra wide brush i see. amazing what short memories some on this blog have.

i’m sure republicans never get letters, voice, and e-mails like this from the left. LOL!!!!

It always seems that the side getting the harrassment at the time forgets that they did the same at one time. Now the Dems are playing the martyr game. We came go back and link all the radicals from the GWB admin just like DRR did. Maybe in the near future we will see how the left acts come Nov.

I suggest people are people and people understand that. Best to stick with the issues, understand them to one’s ability and try to find solutions. Fer instance: why, when the U.S. gets sued by some nation it is through the WTO (a world government for the elites) yet, when we sue some country it’s done through a U.S. court. WTO/Brazil sues us for subsidizing cotton yet we are suing China for bum drywall through the U.S. court system. “”It remains to be seen how the plaintiffs can collect from Chinese companies that do not have to respond to U.S. courts.”” “The U.S. has set tariffs on Chinese oil field pipes of up to 99%.” Penalties imposed by the Commerce Department”. “There are 95 special tariffs and duties imposed against Chinese companies for unfair pricing practices and 23 ongoing investigations.” The U.S. imposed a 35% tariff against tires last year. I know that when the WTO sues they collect. Not so sure about these U.S. courts.

Also, like the idea that people can change their minds on issues and not be thrown overboard or ‘labeled’ for doing so. Justice Stephen’s was for the death penalty and later against it. What I don’t like is Justice Breyer enjoining foreign ‘international’ law, citing foreign decisions in making U.S. rulings.

Paul says we must get educators involved in education. You would first have to wrest control of education from government’s grasp. No kid left behind and all that. Montgomery Co. Md. teachers put it straight to their political candidates asking if they will support a tax hike designed to support teaching organizations. Plans are to import 40K foreign nurses while our colleges have no room to train U.S. students in nursing yet half the graduate classes are filled with foreign students.

I’d like to be labeled as a ‘populist’ but like ‘liberal’, ‘libertarian’ and ‘progressive’ the term has been so excoriated that I fear it’s a liability to my political identity. By advocating that ‘corporate personhood’ be abolished many will label me as ‘extremist’, assured the world will come to an end if such were to happen. I find it remarkable that we have a WH full of radicals, Wx underground, socialists, communists, etc setting U.S. policy while the media concerns itself with rock throwing tea baggers.

I just curios how the left will react when they loose big time in Nov? Who’s fault will it be and why?

Yes, there are too many extremists.

Many are in the federal Congress and other levels of government.

There is really no big difference between Democrat and Republican Incumbent Politicians.
Unfortunately, the only major difference between the IN-PARTY and OUT-PARTY are the two extremes that each go to:

• Extreme #1: One extreme wants regressive taxation, unfettered capitalism, little (if any) government regulations, and freedom to explore and wallow in every manifestation of unchecked greed.
• Extreme #2: The other extreme wants a nanny-state with citizens increasingly dependent on the government; with massive cradle-to-grave government programs (which are usually severely mismanaged) that nurture a sense of entitlement and dependency on government; wants to grow government ever larger (despite the already current nightmare proportions); rewards failure and laziness; and perpetuates the myth that we can somehow all live at the expense of everyone else. Other than those two extremes above, which both have approximately equally harmful end results, consider the numerous similarities …

At any rate, we have the government we elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, … , re-elect, at least, until repeatedly rewarding failure, wallowing in the circular partisan warfare, and repeatedly re-electing corrupt incumbent politicians finally becomes too painful.

That is, the voters have what they deserve.

Unfortunately, the children of many generations will suffer the consequences of so much greed, laziness, apathy, and selfishness.

David,
You found something. My world is comeing to an end.

Then again, perhaps not.
OK, David, it’s so hard to find hate at a gathering of warm and fuzzy liberals…
http://polizeros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/kill-bush1.JPG
http://thelondonfog.blogspot.com/2005/03/crowd-rage-fails-to-promote.html
http://www.rvermillion.com/blog/archives/000252.html
…and this outstanding collection of hate, seen all too often, but seldom reported except in conservative media.
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621#photos

I searched only one term- Kill Bush Banners, and clicked only six links to find these.

Oh, and I liked this link that shows how ‘terribly unlikely’ it was the current president knew actual Pentagon bomber Bill Ayers… There’s no hate or violence in these people at all.

Let’s try another term- SEIU thug… Wait a minute! That’s a black man they beat up for passing out conservative literature…
One term one click…

I’m happy to say this would make for poor rhetorical technique. I don’t really think the violence and hate spewed by the left warrants the same from the right. When the left riots and spews hate, when they vandalize shops and throw bricks, when they burn their own neighborhoods, though, mainstream media ask “Why are they so angry and what can the government do about it?”

When people on the right hold up a suggestive sign the same people suggest we’re crazy and should never be represented politically.

There is some assymetry there.

David:

They aren’t very educated or bright, either. One Tea Party sign read: “One Hugh Mistake America”. Misspelling huge and do they really mean America is a huge mistake? Guess so.

Same photo has another sign reading: “No taxation without representation”. Duh! There is a Congress, and everyone elects their representatives. Ergo, taxation is with representation. Has been the case for over 230 years. Or, do they mean no taxation as long as Democrats are voted into office by the majority? If that is the case, then this sign is clearly anti-democracy and America.

Another sign reads, “Don’t steal from Medicare to support socialized medicine.” Truly idiotic, wholly undereducated, and an expression of anger which understands nothing of its target. Another reads, “No Amensty”

And the examples of lack of education, understanding, and anger without basis in reality or fact, are many more. A quick read of history demonstrates such ignorant and undereducated persons are easily duped and manipulated into activism of hate and opposition, on the Left and Right.

This is a very poor argument. You have no way of proving these people are a part of any movement, or are simply there from the other side to make the movement look this way.

There is strong evidene that the left is trying to set up this movement and portray them as racists.

Show me a study or poll of who these people are and what their average education level is.

By the way why don’t you use the same tactics with a racial group and see how far you get. It’s ok to use the above tactics with conservatives, but don’t use those tactics with blacks or jews or gays or women or,,,. You get my point.

Nope, no extremists here

Lee:

Is this what liberals really look like:

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621#photos

Zomblog is a good name for these guys. Have you noticed the Tea Parties are smiling and seem to be having a good time, and the liberal haters are so angry looking. In fact some of them look like they escaped from the local zoo.

I’ve also heard that Tea Parties clean up and never leave a mess, but when liberals leave, the city has to send in workers to pick up the garbage. I guess that is because the liberals love “mother earth” so much.

Craig, your comments use to reflect reason and logic. Your last one reflects irrational paranoia. From the other side? C’mon, Craig. Have you plugged into Faux News? Something has changed.

I know appearances can be deceiving, but, to use that defense to reject inconvenient reality and evidence is a bit wing nutty don’t you think?

Lee, Lee, Lee,

Your defense against my claims is that the Left has their nuts too? The difference between you and I is I don’t support the Left anymore than I do the Right, as both are ruining this nation’s future and have their share of nuts, corruption, and ineptitude, not to mention myriad sophists. I support individuals or specific policies that make sense, not a Party, which history teaches makes no sense but infinite cents.

I taught my daughter to stop using that logic, that it is OK to do bad things because others do them, by the time she was 10. And here you are reply to critiques of the kooks on the Right with, but,, but,, The Left Has Them Too! C’mon, man! OF course they do, and did. But, the violent ones in the here and now are largely found on the Right. We can argue historical violent kooks back and forth for 230 years, but, it won’t address what is happening today, or put a stop to the growing craziness and violent rhetoric and actions by the wing nuts on the Right, CURRENTLY!

Lee & DRR,

Before this gets out of hand, can either of you tell me how many left leaning protesters have been arrested and jailed as compared to how many right leaner’s? The threats are basically the same, and the protests could be interchangeable, but where’s the beef? Rightie’s get away with it, but lefties are arrested…strange…inciting to riot or threats of death or bodily harm should be treated equally, don’t you think?

It still puzzles me that the Cheney/Bush protests started AFTER he proved to be dishonorable and a do-baddy, while these Obama threats and protests began even BEFORE he was sworn in.

PS:

The first known plot to assassinate Barack Obama, by two White Supremacists, was foiled by the ATF in October of 2008, and several other actual assassination plots have been uncovered since then. How many similarly authentic assassination plots against George W Bush by leftist extremists were uncovered by the FBI or other law enforcement agencies between 2000 and 2008? I believe that threats against Obama are taken more seriously than threats against Bush because the actual threat risk is much higher against Obama, precisely because it manifests itself in gun-toting right wing militia and White Supremacist wingnuts with a long history of actual violence.

How many bricks were thrown through the windows of Republican legislators by angry liberals and gay rights activists when the Patriot Act or the Defense of Marriage Act were passed? The sad fact is that with right wing talk show hosts and media pundits like Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and others endlessly demonizing liberals and fomenting resistance and revolution with anti-government and anti-Obama rhetoric, the chance that such rhetoric will cross the invisible line into violent action by a Timothy McVeigh or a Scott Roeder psychopath is now much greater than it ever was during the Bush years.

Left wing extremists were ALWAYS considered to be exactly what they were — (extremists) — by the other members of the left, going as far back as the days of the Symbionese Liberation Front and the Weather Underground of the 1960’s, but today’s right wing extremists are considered to be “brothers in arms” by the rest of the right wing. (When the news first broke about the FBI’s arrest of the members of the Hutaree Christian militia members in Michigan a few weeks ago, within hours the following headline was posted at Tea Party Patriots: Official Home Of The American Tea Party Movement — “FBI Raids Tea Party Compound” {3/28/2010}) I do not think that comparing the rhetorical violence of the left against Bush to the threat of actual violence of the right against Obama is either honest or accurate.

PPS:

If a ‘liberal’ protester was to shout down folks who were gathered together at a town hall meeting, he would be a pariah to me. If I was in a gathering and one of my cohorts were to show up carrying a distasteful, vulgar or threatening sign, I would shun him like the devil and denounce him at every opportunity. If an idiot showed up at a gathering I was attending carrying a gun, I would pack my bags and leave at the earliest available time…see the difference? Y’all DEFEND these creeps.

The question David, is WHO is doing the violence, is it the right wing nuts or is it the left wing nuts. Where is all the racists talk comming from, the left wing media. You all talk about Beck, Oriely, and Hannity, but the left has Ed, Olderman and Maddow. The latter IMO are the real nut cases except maybe ED, I put him in a class with ORiely. I,ve seen Maddow come up with some real stupid comments I class her with Beck. And Hannity with Olderman. What media do we believe? Who does the real news, is it MSNBC, CNN, FOX, ABC. Which one isn’t biased? I’ll tell you neither is. Another question David is do you have absolute proff that all those links you posted are FACT, they are right wing nut cases not just some PO’d Democrat who didn’t get what he wanted in the HC bill or someone wanting to set up the right as violent.

David,

This has got to be the most hysterical post ever, not because of the subject matter, but because of the reactions to it from the right.
Those on the left seem to a man to readily accept that there are morons on both sides of the political spectrum.

Those on the right, however, seem to want to place the blame squarely on the “liberals” in this country.

It’s as if all of the conservatives in America are as pure as the driven snow.

This “not me man, nobody saw me, you can’t prove a thing, he did it first”, and of course, what has got to be the best response ever, “it’s got to be the ‘leftists dressed in rightist clothing’ causing all of the problems” attitude is what is dragging this country to the abyss.

I applaud you for exposing these people for the frauds they truly are.

It seems to me, in times like these, Ben Franklin was never more right than when he said, “If we do not hang together, we will all hang separately. We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.”

Rocky

Rocky Marks,

It is the immaturity of a group. I’ve helped raise eleven children, and am used to all that, “Not me!”, “It was her/him!”, stuff. I can find no difference to the reactions of these adults who defend the Tea Baggie creeps.

David:

You know what you were doing. You are too good of a debater to use that type of evidence to make your point.

Make your points with the real stuff. A few mispelled signs?

Craig

The basic point of the Tea Party movement is deep concern over the size and scope of the Federal govenment as well as the deficit.

It is an obvious tactic to change the subject to try to make them into racist, stupid, right wing extremists.

Craig,

If they ween’t a bunch of racist, stupid, right wing extremists, we wouldn’t be talking like this. Change their modus operendus, and we will see them the way you do. Perceptions matter. The only way we can see them is by the way they present themselves. The racist part is self evident, ie., they said not a word about the size of government or the debt while Cheney/Bush was in office, and a good part of their signage has to do with racist issues. Stupid is a little harder, unless you listen to many of the answers they give to street interviewers…but, stupid is as stupid does. And if they are not right wing extremists, what the heck ARE they??? Are you telling me that people who yell so loud others can’t talk, and who carry around weapons with signs depicting first Nazism and then Communism, doesn’t say something right wing, stupidly extreme? If they are the center of your political values…wow, this country is worse off than I thought.

Marysdude:

Well next to Obama they are right wing extremists. It matters greatly who one is standing next to in politics.

In terms of street inteviews this is a common tactic done by both sides. I remember Sean Hannity in downtown New York talking to Obama supporters. He gave them McCains position on the issues as if it were Obamas, and then asked them if they agreed with it. So these fine people agreed with McCain’s issues and were voting for McCain. He then generalized the way you are to say that Obama supporters were stupid.

If they are not right wing extemists what are they?

They are on the right as you say. However my guess is that the movement AS A WHOLE is no farther from to the political center of our country than you or Obama or Pelosi or Reid are.

Craig,

“It is an obvious tactic to change the subject to try to make them into racist, stupid, right wing extremists.”

Please point out to us where David has made the Tea Party movement into “racist, stupid, right wing extremists”.

Seems to me all David has done is to merely point out that there are “extremist” elements that have glommed on to the movement, and that the members of that movement appear to be unwilling to accept that fact.

Rocky

In my opinion,after reading this, the only “wingnut” I’ve found is the one who authored the article.Democracy? Yes, it is against the American way, due to the FACT that we Are a constitutional REPUBLIC.And, in his scenario of the “six doors” I would think exploring all options would be a rational thought.And, as for the Tea parties, anyone who looks at them can see that there are people of all races,not just “99.5 to 100% white” attending these functions.Maybe the author should do his homework,and print the facts, not the liberal propaganda he’s been spouting.

Rocky:

Here is the quote that I am addressing:

They aren’t very educated or bright, either. One Tea Party sign read: “One Hugh Mistake America”. Misspelling huge and do they really mean America is a huge mistake? Guess so. Same photo has another sign reading: “No taxation without representation”. Duh! There is a Congress, and everyone elects their representatives. Ergo, taxation is with representation. Has been the case for over 230 years. Or, do they mean no taxation as long as Democrats are voted into office by the majority? If that is the case, then this sign is clearly anti-democracy and America.

Another sign reads, “Don’t steal from Medicare to support socialized medicine.” Truly idiotic, wholly undereducated, and an expression of anger which understands nothing of its target. Another reads, “No Amensty”

And the examples of lack of education, understanding, and anger without basis in reality or fact, are many more. A quick read of history demonstrates such ignorant and undereducated persons are easily duped and manipulated into activism of hate and opposition, on the Left and Right.

David is better than this. He is taking a piece of evidence here and there and generalizing about an entire movement.

Here is a sign I found of course in the Internet. Does this mean all public school officials need work on spelling?

http://irritatedtulsan.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/tournemt2.jpg

Do the same thing with African Americans and see where you get. Find an African American holding up a sign with a missspelled word or two in it and say:

“They aren’t very educated or bright, either.”

I wonder if there were any misspelled signs in the civil rights movement, or in the Viet Nam war protests?

Put one of those signs up and then put these words under it:

And the examples of lack of education, understanding, and anger without basis in reality or fact, are many more. A quick read of history demonstrates such ignorant and undereducated persons are easily duped and manipulated into activism of hate and opposition, on the Left and Right

We allow these types of comments when it is a group that everyone agrees it is ok to “ghettoize”, but usually it is an attempt to dismiss a class of people or their arguments out of hand without having to deal with the substance of what they are saying.

In this case that the size and scope of government is out of hand and the budget deficits need to be brought under control.

AMEN Keith

Craig, your comment’s literacy level is wanting. In the very first sentence of mine which you quote, I say: “They aren’t very educated or bright, either.”

You pulled that quote OUT OF CONTEXT to create a red herring straw man argument. “THEY” refers to the right wing nuts posing an increasing danger of violence and other actions with potentially high social costs, which are the subject of the article. The word DOES NOT refer to all Tea Partyers, as the IN-CONTEXT subject of the article makes abundantly clear. Though there are, as the evidence demonstrates, some of these right wingnuts in the Tea Party gatherings and demonstrations. Just as some Left Wingnuts of the GreenPeace type and with violence oriented rhetoric, show up at left wing demonstrations.

Your comment may have been an attempt at sophistry, though. But, sophistry is only effective if it remains unidentified as such. On the other hand, it may have just been a misunderstanding of the words presented and taken out of context accidentally, in which case, I will accept your apology.

Keith, well poked. We have way too much democracy, which is exactly what got us into our current predicament. The Founder’s feared a large Federal but that’s what we’ve got. Justice’s quoting international case law in their decisions. A bridge way too far IMO.

Beck is going to tackle the Federal budget tomorrow evening. Should be interesting.

Why would I, as a Virginian, want the Fed using my tax dollars to bail out Calif? Or Greece, etc? Not what the Founder’s intended and multiple wrongs don’t make a right, just compounds the problem.

David:

Spelling on signs is proof of nothing. For instance in our political climate people intentionally switch sides and disrupt in order for the other side to get the negative press.

No I am not suggesting this happened here. I am suggesting that what is on signs is proof of nothing.

Since what is written on the signs is proof of nothing, what does the part that I quoted say?

There is evidence that is debatable. Let me give you some to help you make your argument.

Here is an article that discussed the left’s attempt to knock down the tea party movement:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/12/AR2010041203358.html

I am certain that these people are going to show up to intentionally give you more ammo, even though they are liberal (probably moderates), that just want to win.

Here is the official website:

http://www.crashtheteaparty.org/

So get ready for a lot more “N” words and a lot more misspelled signs because it’s the political season.

If it looks like a republican and smells like a republican, well you folks get the idea. I find it hilarious watching you folks trying to convince reasonable people who have eyes and ears that the Tea Party is something more than just another name for the GOP. They are playing you like a fiddle, just like they play to the religious right. The GOP is a beast with many heads. Unfortunately, blind people can not see any of them. If the Tea Party rallies together and manages to replace dems with republicans, how is that any different than being a republican? Or are you folks organized and shrewd enough to vote out irresponsible incumbents and replace them with the best person for the job regardless of party affiliation? I see nothing in your itinerary that indicates so. The party may be fairly large and loud, but the reality is that it really is insignificant in doing anything other than motivating right wing extremism. If you are truly interested in changing the ways of govt you should be running your own candidates separate of the major parties. Good luck getting your government back when you have no responsible entity to hand it over to.

There was a reason John Lennon wrote the song Revolution.

It contained the lines,

“But when you talk about destruction
Don’t you know that you can count me out?”

“But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is, brother, you’ll have to wait”

“But when you talk about destruction
Don’t you know that you can count me out?”

He was strongly associated with the anti war movement, but made clear he did not support radicals.

Until the Tea Party makes clear it does not support this kind of radicalism, you can count out most people.

RickL:

Not sure what your point is. No Tea Party and the Republican party overlap. I think the republican party wishes what you are swaying were true.

The problem is that the Republicans have messed things up so royally over hte last decade that this golded opportunity Democrats are handing the right is hard to take advantage of.

Conservatives have a tough road right now. Well the wind is at their backs in the sense that Democrats are falling over themselves to tick off the the American people. However, there isn’t much of a place for americans to run to!!

That should read “conservatives to run to!!”

Craig, I understand your dilemma. There are indeed tea party persons that are genuine in their wishes and perceptions. I know quite a few of them myself. The problem is that as a lot they don’t know for sure just who they are or who represents them. It is for sure that they are largely white conservatives between the ages of 30 to 64. 49% employed 24% retired and I believe I read only 6% unemployed. When one does the math by comparing their leanings as to voting preferences the totals between the republicans and independents come out in the 83% range as leaning strong right. I understand exactly what you folks want. Hell, in a perfect world it is what any responsible person would want. This however is not a perfect world and the simplistic notions of radically less government for exponentially more constituents in an ever more complex arena simply are not practical. And simply running to the right because you have no where else to turn is imo a redundancy. The tea party combined with the efforts of right wing media are doing little more than sustaining divisions and furthering hatreds between anyone who associates themselves strongly with a particular political leaning. I may not be intentional by truly concerned members but it none the less is serving the republicans well.

Craig, Also, please don’t misunderstand my concerns. I am not a radical leftist who hates all things right or republican. Having experienced an evolution of political awakening myself over the last few years I now consider myself an independent. That being said, I think that to truly consider myself an independent means that I can no longer blindly support a single party political entity. My leanings are liberal in nature with a big picture mentality of being able to find compromises that will benefit us best as a whole. I do not see the benefit in driving people apart with hatred and fear in an effort to prop up any particular political leaning as being what is best for anyone.

gergle, all the radicals I’m aware of are in the WH administration. Socialists, communists, Wx unde4rground, etc. Not aware of any in the TEA Party movement.

Here is a new ‘extremist’ we can add to the list. He is pushing for a new Party called the “PISSED OFF PARTY” or POP.

This party is dedicated to vote every incumbent out of office in the next elections.

If you’re Democrat, vote Democrat. Just don’t vote for the incumbent.

If you’re Republican, vote Republican. Just don’t vote for the incumbent.

We need to send a message to all politicians, that we’re tired of their B.S..

If the country votes out all the incumbents, the new incoming politicians will get the message.

It’s pretty simple. Nobody needs to change parties and lets face it, there’s plenty of blame to spread around.
A few good politicians will lose their job but they probably have better retirement and insurance than 95% of the American public.

You’ve had to struggle for the last 5 years. Some of you have lost your job and may be working in some other sector just to feed your family. I guarantee you, non of them will suffer like this country has. If you like whats going on and think this is a bad idea, delete this. But if your’re fed up and think this is a good idea, then pass this E-mail on.

If you really think this has legs then a website and a blog could help get the word out

Here’s an irritated Senior!!. (Pix shows a senior with a paunch with tee shirt reading “jam it down our throats in 2009” “we’ll stick it up your ass in 2010.”

This should be read and understood by Americans.

To ALL 535 voting members of the Legislature; it is now official you are all corrupt morons:

 The U.S.P.S. was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.

 Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.

 Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is broke.

 War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to ‘the poor’ and they only want more.

 Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are broke.

 Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is broke

 The DOE was created in 1977 to lesson our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than every before. You had 12 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.

You have FAILED in every ‘government service” you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.
AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM/ IT’S NOT ABOUT THE NEED FOR GOOD HEATLHCARE, IT’S ABOUT TRUSTING THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN IT.”

Sounds a lot like one of my rants.

Roy
It may be a rant but it’s all true.

RickL:

Thank you for your thoughtful reponse. I have worked with liberals, moderates and conservatives for years. (10 years on a school board).

What I want is for the size and scope of the federal government to stay close to it’s post WWII averages. I understand the need for short term expansion because if the financial emergency.

Since we have had such a dramatic expansion of federal spending I am on the side of the Tea Party on fiscal issues. As a long term member of the Republican party, they have let me down.

My “preference” would be to trust the Republican party with some addition power to bring things closer to balance than then hold both parties feet to the fire by being a part of a pain in the rear out side organization. I would like to shorten the leash we have on the Democratic party.

I am a moderate conservative philosophically. Although I am still a Republican I an not a hard core Republican. I am deeply disappointed in much of what the Republican party did while in power. I am also confused by how stupid the Democratic party seems to be in repeating many of the mistakes the Republicans made, the key being arrogance.

Roy Ellis-
Freddie Mac was never a government program. It was originally a part of the recently privatized Fannie Mae corporation. That itself was spun off of the old government program, which did just fine.

The generalized talk of government failure is logically incoherent, if you know what was going on during the Housing Crisis. The problem wasn’t that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were themselves bad lenders. The problem was that so many of the other lenders that displaced them in the market from their once great dominance poisoned the secondary market they depended upon dead, and without enough new mortgages, or people willing to buy them on the secondary market, they were screwed.

The Department of Energy has mostly been run by Republicans during its history, about 24 years of their pro-oil, pro-fossil fuel agenda. Were you really expecting Reagan or Bush 41 or 43 to put it on the road to serving its purpose? Did you expect Clinton to rework its mission from the status quo with a Republican Party wholly owned by the energy companies on its back?

Social Security isn’t going broke, it’s trust fund is running down. If we’re talking about benefits, it’s the end of full benefits, not the end of the system itself, which is largely self-sustaining. As for the estimate that has the trust-fund running out in just a few short years? It corresponds to a 70 year forecast, which is unreliable to start with. But here we have to take the worst possible circumstances to see it run out that fast.

The Number one problem with Medicare and Medicaid is the never-ending, faster than inflation rise of healthcare costs. We tried a little something to get that under control, got 9 years more on the program.

As for the war on poverty? We cut it in half. Not total victory, but much better than we were.

Craig Holmes-
Look, you left some big messes for us. We HAD to take drastic action. We weren’t merely dealing with the problem of letting a crisis go to waste, we’re dealing with the problem that the crisis might waste us!

We’re basically being blamed for not taking half-measures in the face of one of the worst economic disasters of all time. That is our arrogance: not letting the country fall to pieces.

And let me ask: What has changed about the Republican agenda that you can say their time of arrogance is past? It only seems like the GOP has gotten more arrogant and overbearing as it’s tried to wrest back control from the Democrats, stall their legislative agenda.

You will not be able to claim the Republicans are past their arrogance until they accept that America’s political judgment, however moderately, went against them, and rightly so. Republican’s problems were not that they weren’t conservative enough (a self-serving spin, if I ever heard one), it’s that they were lousy leaders and policymakers.

Stephen:

I have no quarrel with the drastic action taken at the end of the Bush presidency and the begining of Obama.

My quarrel is that the crisis appears to last 20 years. According to the CBO report Obama plans to keep Federal spending at about 20% above the post WWII average, and he is not done yet proposing!!

Tax revenues are projected to increase as a a percentage of GDP to above average without any tax increases. So most of the 10 trillion dollar deficit over the next 10 years is because of spending.

That is what I am calling arrogance. To
take advantage of the financial crisis as an opportunity to put in place federal spending that will be here for the rest of our lives.

Second, you asked

And let me ask: What has changed about the Republican agenda that you can say their time of arrogance is past?

I don’t think the Republicans time in the wilderness if over. The corruption and “bridge to nowhere ” and influence peddling is now on yourside. (Thinking of all the secrecy and payoffs to get health care through).

We need financial reponsibility. Obama and the current democrats are some of the most irresponsible in our lifetime.

(And that is saying a bunch when he dwarfs Bush on this issue!!)

>(And that is saying a bunch when he dwarfs Bush on this issue!!)
Posted by: Craig Holmes at April 13, 2010 06:35 PM

Craig,

No…that is actually saying NOTHING…I can speculate like crazy, ie., if a conservative administration takes over our governance, we will fall off the face of the earth…toot-sweet! Now we are even, and what we have said carries the same weight.

Marysdude:

The best this country ever had it was when dems had the whitehouse and Republicans had congress. So maybe a split is what we need.

Tea Baggers are for the most part the extremist wing of the repub party that lead the country to ruin before they abandoned the repub party because the repubs choice for president, McCain, was not conservative enough for them . The same people that were ok with 2 unfunded wars and tax breaks, the Patriot Act, The medicare big pharma giveaway and their VP telling us for years “deficits don’t matter, Reagan proved that”. Cut and run republicans for the most part IMHO. Left their party in ruin and pointed fingers at those moderate and conservative repubs that remained while calling themselves independents.

The tea party is funded in part by Dick Armey, who admits to being a conservative and given free air time by Murdoch. Look at those in the repub party that are sucking up to the tea baggers, Bachmann, Palin, etal. Extremist without answers.

Where were the biggest share of the tea baggers when it was the repubs in power? They were feeding at the trough with the small government conservative republicans at the expense of the American people. In fact they ate the pork better than at almost any other time in our history. Yet they whine and complain when the American people reject their failed ideology.

What are the solutions the tea baggers propose for dealing with our present problems? Tax cuts and let the next generation pay. Why they seem to me to be just like the repubs- misinformation, half truths and outright lies yet no solutions, just blame.

Who are the leaders of the tea baggers that would or could hold a national elective office? Palin? What a joke. These tea baggers seem to be nothing more than selfish whiners and complainers that offer no solutions just misspelled signs which IMHO is the same as a talk radio conservative. When I se tea baggers on TV I think of the movie “Idiocracy” yet they make the movie “Idiocracy” seem more like a documentary than a comedy.

Craig, I am sorry but I really don’t see how running to the right is going to help anything. Not all dem legislators are unworthy. Nor are all repubs. You want to reestablish the party that bankrupted the nation as the ruling party to balance out the extremes that happen when one or the other is in charge. Where does the madness end? In two more years we will want to do just the opposite to regain what the working man lost to business under the right. As I said over in the left column, it is like the dog chasing his tail thing. The same bunch of legislators that gave us tax breaks for the wealthy, a borrow and spend philosophy to cover that lost revenue and pay for two wars still walk the congressional halls. I really can’t see that they have accepted any accountability for their malfeasance. That fact in itself says that they are either too stupid to believe they did wrong or believe we are too stupid to hold them accountable.

Roy and David have the right idea. It is obvious that what we are lacking are legislators that are more concerned with doing the nations business than doing the parties business. The republicans have not shown that they are interested in doing anything other than the GOP’s business. The dems may be spending, but do they really have any choice? We as a nation have procrastinated, in lieu of future planning for so long that it has finally peaked into the situation that we face today. It is going to cost a lot of money to recover from decades of trying to sustain antiquated ways in efforts to appease the ultra wealthy of this country.

The only way we will achieve any accountability from both parties is to end the age of the career incumbent. At least until they get the idea that it is time to put the special interests and extreme partisan politics aside in favor of working TOGETHER to provide the needs of this country. In a nutshell they need to act like responsible adults who know that there is a price to be paid for doing less than adequate work for unethical reasons. Simply switching parties every several years will do nothing more than sustain a bunch of career crooks who are looking to make their fortune at our expense.

Rickil:

We are not as far apart as you imagine. I am not calling for a dramatic shift to the right. What would be great to me would be if one of the houses were Republican or close.

Democrats are working on adding $10 Trillion or so to the debt of this country over the next 10 years. To here them talk it is because of the financial crisis. Since when does the crisis last 10 years?

Take a look at the CBO projections for this president. They are in loonie land.

There are many republicans and former republicans (conservative independents) who are livid with the Republican pary. I don’t trust either party with fiscal discipline. My best shot is rooting for slim majorities and preferably split. (One house Democrat and one house Republican).

“Twenty-four percent (24%) of U.S. voters now say they consider themselves a part of the Tea Party movement, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. That’s an eight-point increase from 16% a month ago.

Another 10% say they are not a part of the movement but have close friends or family members who are.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of voters say they have no ties to the Tea Party movement. Eleven percent (11%) more are not sure.

The rise in Tea party support is perhaps not surprising at a time when more voters than ever (58%) favor repeal of the national health care plan just passed by Democrats in Congress and signed into law by President Obama. Most voters remain convinced that the health care plan will require an increase in taxes on the middle class as a time when 66% of voters believe America is already overtaxed.

Forty-two percent (42%) of Republicans say they are part of the movement, compared to nine percent (9%) of Democrats and 24% of voters not affiliated with either major party. Thirty-five percent (35%) of Mainstream voters view themselves as Tea Party members, while 84% of the Political Class say they have no ties to the movement.”

Taken from:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2010/34_say_they_or_someone_close_to_them_part_of_tea_party_movement

Is the Tea Party made up of dangerous extremists, or are they everyday Americans? Is this group growing? Can we call them a by-partisan group? Finally, what group is becoming the minority group who has lost touch with real America?

I let y’all be the judge:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/so_you_think_slavery_wasnt_at.php

Baretta9 said: ““Twenty-four percent (24%) of U.S. voters now say they consider themselves a part of the Tea Party movement, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.”

The National Institute of Mental Health says: “An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.”

Interesting correlation of percentages. :-)

Craig said: “The best this country ever had it was when dems had the whitehouse and Republicans had congress.”

That was when the Republican Party representatives were made up of moderates and centrists. Today the majority of Republicans in Congress are “tow the hard line ideologues” goose-stepping to Mitch McConnel’s and John Boehner’s orders to act as the Party of “No-WAY but Their Way”, or we will turn the Tea Partyers against your reelection, via our close relationship with Dick Armey. Effective to get those goose steps into lock step. But, it truly alienates the majority of the American middle class.

Gallup Poll this week: “Congress’ job approval rating has improved to 23% since the passage of healthcare reform legislation but remains low overall. Americans’ approval ratings for the Democrats in Congress (37%) and the Republicans in Congress (33%) are similar.”

Watch Out for that approval rating of Congress going up between now and November. It will closely track Democratic Party approval ratings in increases or decreases, for obvious reasons.

Republicans are threatening to filibuster legislation to reform Wall St. That’s a big dumb dumb as far as public opinion is concerned, I’ll bet.

David:

This correlation between Tea Party supporters and the mentally impaired is not fair, even from a liberal such as you!! So you tow the same liberal line, that anyone who disagrees with you is half a bubble off? Great!!

If the Republican Party has moved from moderate to the right, where has the Democratic Party moved? I know it is impossible for you to understand this, but conservatives are furious at the direction the democrats and republicans have moved this country. The TP movement is nothing more than conservatives (of which polls have shown a vast majority of Americans consider themselves conservative), trying to get America back on the right path. Attack them all you want, but I promise they will play a great part in politics in the next 2 years and hopefully longer. The statements from the left about the TP ooze with hatred.

Beretta9
Here is a Gallup Poll showing that you are corect that the largest single affiliation is conservative,at 40%. This is followed closely,at 38% by moderates and 20% liberal. That means,of course ,that 58% of Americans are NOT conservatives.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123854/Conservatives-Maintain-Edge-Top-Ideological-Group.aspx

I am curious as to how bank re-regulation will play out. The Rep leadership is busy sucking up to bankers for large campaign contributions. Most conservatives that I know are not very nuanced. Things are cut and dry for them. What the banks did was wrong and they know it.When their pension gets shredded or they loose their job because of what bankers did, they know it was wrong.Sure the TP does not like big government but certainly they want government big enough to catch mutderers and theives and protect the economy from collapse. When the Reps start protecting the banks from regulation and oversite so they can keep ripping us off and cause another great recession in ten years,how is the TP going to react?

Craig Holmes-
Consider a few things:

1) Substantial parts of the seemingly new spending are items that the President counts in his budget were being spent anyways by the previous President, but not included in the budget so that they could be counted by the CBO. This includes two wars, money put back to deal with natural disasters, the AMT fix, the Doc Fix, and so on and so forth. We were spending these things, but Republicans were just pretending they weren’t. The Doc Fix is a good example.

2) The Stimulus package seems to have done its job, running the economic numbers higher. Temporary as the gains might be, they were there, and that meant a situation that was bad didn’t get worse. That’s not imprudent spending.

3) We were in an emergency. If you have a heart attack and you’re not covered, do you decide not to have a heart attack when you find out it will cost you a pretty penny? No. People don’t save for rainy days without reason, and governments don’t deficit spend in deflationary periods without reason.

People like me get the sense that Republicans made things this bad to begin with, and now rain abuse on us, now that we’re forced to do the emergency spending and bailouts necessary to keep things from getting out of control. Personally, it galls me to think that Republicans are trying to score political points and win back their authority on the basis of popular discontent with the problem they themselves caused.

Could they just pick up a shovel and start digging us out, instead of trying to bury us in the hole they dug? America needs helpers not opportunists.

Sstephen:

I get your points. However look at this article from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-04-12-deficit_N.htm

Look at that trend line.

First of all, notice that the revenue side is well within historical norms going into the future. So there is not need for large tax increases. The revenue side self corrects.

The issue is on the spending side. Also notice where spending declined. It was when we had a Democrat in the whitehouse and a Republican congress.

Stephen/David:

There is pretty clear evidence that from a fiscal point of view the best combination is a Republican Congress and Democrat in the whitehouse.

Way easier to support a 3rd party, designed for the 21st century, Focused on abolishing CP and MIFS and then implementing CFR where donations can only be made by single individuals. Donations would be into an election pool that would fund those viable candidates and parties wanting to participate. Following that, real reform can be carried out.

David,
Why I like your thinking, I do believe that you overlooked the Seven Door the Conservative Right can take to restore the Natural Order of Things in the 21st Century. For impressed by how hard the Republican Leadership is clinging to the Status Quo, I do believe once the Tea Party Members realize that like the Changes of the 70’s it is in the Inherent Best Interest of the Parents of Society to listen to Their Elders.

For why I couldn’t tell you the difference between an Infromed Citizen and an Informed Patient, I do wonder where the Common knowledge and Common Sense of the Human Race stand on the Political Questions before us? Because why I know that the American Republican Leadership has represented well Wall Streets Interests over the last 30 years only to lay waste to the Race of the Bottom. In a Race to the Top shouldn’t the Radio and TV Pundits be able to know the difference between Political Ignorance and Political Stupidity considering their education?

Roy,

You know the Founding Fathers of America gave the American Layman Citizen a way to change Government and Society? I just figure out why Commerce and Industry are so slow to catch up with the American and Small Business Owner.

Not hard to understand Henry. $$. With their own world government for the business sector (WTO) their interest was to go global and make sure they ended up with their fair share of the conglomerates, monopolies, trading companies, etc. To do that they only needed to call in some markers with congress. No anti-trust law, taxpayer funded overseas reloaction for companies, lower tax rates, etc.

Hypothetical Henry. Suppose Microsoft has enuff discretionary captial to buy up all the tv/radio ads for the coming election. Would anybody complain? If so, why are they complaining now? I’m sure corporations have a full time staff working that angle right now. How much is too much, how much will the public take before bitching, etc.

Another hypo. Based on companies being given human rights, right to donate unlimited globs of cash to candidates and the media, freedom from anti=trust and many other laws, Bush’s tax cuts, and their own world government for biz (WTO).

Remember that technology was supposed to save us. Suppose Trane continues to invest in AC technology to the point where robots build all their AC units. This invesment can be written off every 2-4 years and repeated ad nauseum. Suppose they monopolize and conglomerate to the point where they are the only make of AC units. Their AC unit is no bigger than a water glass and cost $300k per unit. Other big businesses think this is a good deal and scarf them up. Joe the plumber can’t afford such and takes the heat.

A little exaggeration but then we are in a jobless recovery are we not? Reason? Corporations have invested in technology, don’t need people. They only need to market to other businesses. People are pertinent only to the point that they need to be controlled through government. Not a problem there, IMO.

bills:

“Here is a Gallup Poll showing that you are corect that the largest single affiliation is conservative,at 40%. This is followed closely,at 38% by moderates and 20% liberal. That means,of course ,that 58% of Americans are NOT conservatives.”

Hate to differ with you, as you know, I’m just one of those ignorant Tea Party Conservatives, but the Battleground Poll is one of the most respected polls taken. The results are 20% very conservative, 40% somewhat conservative, 2% moderate, 27% somewhat liberal, 9% very liberal, and 3% did not want to answer.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/the_biggest_missing_story_in_p.html

Now before you waste your time writing back with a “gotcha”, I will admit, this poll was taken 2 years ago, when Obama was elected. If we look at Obama’s fall in the polls and polls showing disapproval of Cap and Trade, and HC; how do you think these conservative vs. liberal polls would read today. I personally think you guys are in deep crap this November…

Craig:

Look at that trend line.

If I believed anyone could predict either of these lines with any accuracy beyond 6 months, I might agree with you.

Beretta9
” I personally think you guys are in deep crap this November…”

Then by all means you guys should break out the”Mission Accomplished” banner. I am sure Rove has it stashed somewhere.

NBC/NY Times poll reveals Tea Party supporters represent only 18% of the population, and Tea Party activists, only 4% or the population.

Roy,
Surprised you choose Mr. Gates. For with the innovation of the PC the world has been changed forever. And why I would not put up his company for Parent of the Year, I do believe Microsoft would be in the top ten. However, the CEO of Massey (the Coal Company) with all the Radio and TV ads cannot change the fact that they would find themselves on the top ten list of the Worst Parents of the Year.

Yes, walking with a double edged sword is dangerous and why the Corporation has a voice in the Election. I wonder how many Private and/or Public Businesses can prove they are like a Good Parent? Since they surely can’t prove they habe made all their customers economically viable and financially independent.

P.S. Could you see Microsoft or any other business give you a Share of Stock for purchasing one of their products?

Henry, plug any monopoly such as Microsoft into my expression and it will work swimmingly. From Wiki: “The laws of the United States hold that a legal entity (like a corporation or non-profit organization) shall be treated under the law as a person except when otherwise noted. This rule of construction is specified in 1 U.S.C. §1, which states:
In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise— the words “person” and “whoever” include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals;
This federal statute has many consequences. For example, a corporation is allowed to own property and enter contracts. It can also sue and be sued and held liable under both civil and criminal law. As well, because the corporation is legally considered the “person,” the individual and collective humans that comprise corporations (shareholders, managers, employees) are not legally responsible for the corporation’s actions.”
The SJC’s have chosen to give corporations and a host of other entities human rights. They have chosen to allow these entities to band together, pool their resources, to advocate for the outcome of an election through Money Is Free Speech law. To many, that flies in the face of one person, one vote common sense law. And, they’ve facilitated and enabled these laws realizing that we have the best government corporations can buy. Why people are not outraged on this one and the Article V Convention thing is mind boogling to me. They put these kind of laws into place that for all practical purposes destroys the Constitution and then bitch about an uptick in political activism?
Gimme yer vote Henry. Up with a 3rd Party with a different political attitude.

Roy, corporations CANNOT be held criminally liable. Only individuals within the corporation can. They can be held criminally negligent but, that is a collective judgment resulting in fines and financial penalties, not in boards of directors and shareholders or, in most case, executives, going to prison. This is one of the major flaws in the corporate personhood laws.

The remedy is not difficult, either. Strengthen whistle blowing protections as well as the penalties of aiding and abetting or covering up corporate crime. What we have is the product of lobbying efforts by the Chamber of Commerce and other corporate lobbyists over the decades, which virtually leaves no corporate person subject to criminal penalty, except in the most egregious and obvious cases of personal irresponsibility and criminal intent (Madoff, for example).

David,
Thanks; however, Public Opinion can do things not even the Courts of Man have no right to.

Roy,
Knowing that it is still considered ungemtlemanly and thus by default Un-Lady-Like to throw stones at Americas’ Elected Officials, don’t you agree that it would be better if the Children of the 21st Century teach Americas’ Democratic and Republican Civil, Political, and Religious Leaders the meaning of Good Corporation and a Bad Corporation. Instead of starting a Civil War with your Elders and Peers.

l
Right David. The Corporate’s have incrementally managed to set up their own world government of trade, all done in secret ya know. I suspect if a bunch of scholarly types could get me in a room they would start out with ‘Roy, we know this thing ain’t perfect but what are we supposed to do? We can’t be sending corporate to jail over some environmental issue, or the fact that a drug made a few people sick. We just wouldn’t get any competition or innovation from corporates if they were treated that way’. My response would be “what does that have to do with allowing corporations to form like-minded groups and throw wads of money at campaigns and lobbying’. A corporation is one entity but can use the power of the corporation to replicate the power of the man on the street by 10k or 10M or anyfactor based on the wealth of the corporate.. One person, one vote should be the accepted law of the land. Campaign funds should be used to support political candidates and, could include political parties as well. To ensure each candidate has an equal and fair chance at election, donations should be by individuals to an organization for accounting, bulk processing and distribution to an unaffiliated organization. This breaks the audit trail as to who donated what. The 2nd organization would plan for and disburse funds to viable candidates and parties. Now, that is a better way and I don’t believe anyone, corporate excluded, would favor the way elections are being funded now. Over the past couple of hundred years efforts to incrementally marginalize the citizen – the sovereign and Corporate Personhood/Money Is Free Speech law is the 800lb. gorilla. Let’s gin up a 3rd Party with a different political attitude and work to change some things. That is the only way real campaign finance reform could be carried out.

Henry, I don’t think you really believe you could nice them to death. I forsee a long, protracted battle to right some wrongs. However, thru a focused 3rd party reform effort I do believe it is possible to achieve campaign finance reform and restore some of the Republic that has been incrementally chipped away over time.

I’m not sure where all these positive numbers for the Tea Baggies come from. There was a rally recently in Atlanta, and only half the numbers showed this year as compared to last year. That bunch of nut-cases must be growing somewhere else…Idaho? Montana? Arkansas? Maybe Bark Shooters are recruiting Tea Baggies?

Roy,
It is not a point of being nice, but pointing out to the so-called Experts of Wall Street and Washington that they lack the Cardinal Knowledge and Understanding of the Issues facing America and Humanity.

For example; they talk about Healthcare, but limit to the fact they can only speak of Medical Procedures and Research able to be done by Americas’ Corporations is it Ignorance or an unwillingness to learn and thus teach this reality to their children.

Yes, changing the World as a Man may not be as easy as Nature doing it; however, seeing time and time again where History can prove (often after the fact) that a single innnovation or method of doing business affects the way All Men live. IMHO it has alot more to do with educating the Elders and Powers-that-Be than proving to them that their Ideology falls short of building a Better World.

Henry, IMO, the people can be ‘informed’ or educated through efforts like Glenn Beck has undertaken. The Corporation is a competitive thing, a destructive process if left to run its course, unregulated, uncontrolled. Your very reason for ‘being’ in a corporation is to win, which translates into more dollars than the other fellow.

Nah, I think its way easier to stir the voter to ‘do the right thing’ rather than trying to move corporate. IMO, corporations can only be directed by the cumudgeon of government regulation.

There is some blow back on corporations based on the recession. Some EU countries, Germany being one, lost a lot through US corporations fraudulent and gambling operations. But the Corpcracy will protect itself, morph and change a little as represented by this ‘new’ financial agency.

Will take a 3rd Party and some well educated voters to restore sanity to the Republic. An Andy Jackson would do but all those guys died out in the 1800’s. For example, ask a young person what a ‘statesman’ is.

Closest thing we have is a Glenn Beck or two, IMO.

Glenn Back and President Andrew Jackson in the same breath…wow…hmmm…Old Andrew must be spinning as we speak.

Yeah, Old Hickory would be smokin … all he went through to save the nation, clean up the corruption and now he’s looking at a bunch of couch potatoes wondering who will be next weeks idol. Put up a candidate with a good head of hair and they will vote for that person, or at least say they did.

Re corporations. Consider the oil companies in Nigeria, Angola, etc. As long as they can get a straw in the ground they will go along with the ruler’s in charge. Corporations are sucking that continent dry of resources with little being returned to the people. I don’t think its the corporations responsibility. I do think the US sovereign - the people, should be pressing government for trade programs whereby we import their resources and in turn provide help in developing whatever a country feels it needs. They provide us oil, we provide them john deeres and catipillars, etc. It’s way easier for a corporation and/or a government to just pay off a few at the top, take the resources and to hell with the people.

NOT RACISTS
NOT VIOLENT
JUST NOT SILENT ANYMORE

Beck suggest you pass it along!

Beck is a racist, or he encourages racism, and he is, at the very least encouraging violence, but you are correct, he certainly is NOT silent. I think I’ll pass mine along.

Beck and all children over the age of 4 have something in common. They know how to yank people’s chain and get them emotionally riled up, frustrated, and pissed off. Every parent knows this to be true of their children. Far too many adults don’t know they are customers of such chain pullers when they saddle up to Rush, Palin, Beck, Bachman, etc. These are adults who act like children with no integrity, no consistency, and no regard for intellectual honesty, who will say and do whatever is necessary to get what they want, wealth and fame, by playing on the uncritical gullibility of other child like minds in the audience.

A century ago they were called snake charmers and potion peddlers, in covered wagons traveling town to town living off the P.T. Barnum awareness that there is a sucker born every minute. What else do you call a person who rails against socialism and anyone who would mess with their Medicare and Soc. Sec. at the same time. Beck does it, rails against both, as if it made perfect logical sense, which of course, makes no logical sense, whatsoever. But, his sucker audience thinks it does, and hence, his fame and fortune.

I can’t count the number of times Beck has contradicted himself from one show to the next with a straight face. Liberal political entertainers throw up contradictions too, all the time, but, the ones I have watched, did so in the context of a Robin Williams sense of hilarity and comedy, not with a straight face and appearance of reporting news and facts, like Beck and Limbaugh. Can’t knock their success at what they do though. There have been many successful propagandists in history, and there will be many more to come as long as we keep bringing a new sucker into the world every minute.

The human mind is a very complex and sophisticated instrument; and no one has yet figured out how to write an operator’s manual that would be useful for all who acquire such an instrument. To a minute degree, each instrument is calibrated slightly different than every other one, and the calibration gets jarred and bumped over time slightly modified as time goes by. We all have vastly more in common than differences, but, we seem intent in modern times to focus intensely on those differences as if they were of premier importance.

Everyone is ignorant of far more than they are educated in. This was as true for Einstein as it is for an autistic savant. The rational approach for the individual and the species is to learn from each other’s educational prowess and experience, instead of fighting in defense of our ignorance. The human race is not yet ready to become that rational, however, and there is far more profit in exploiting ignorance than sharing knowledge and wisdom as the likes of Glenn Beck prove. Which explains teachers being at in the bottom half of the income range, instead of the top half.

>Which explains teachers being at in the bottom half of the income range, instead of the top half.
Posted by: David R. Remer at April 24, 2010 05:10 AM

DRR,

That, and also because earlier Glenn Beck types convinced half the electorate that public education was the worst type of socialism. The right has been slowly killing education for the masses ever since…talk about shooting self in foot…now we’ve got Tea Baggies…;)

Marysdude, private education permits the ideological indoctrination of youth. For decades, Republicans knew they could not acquire the majority based on their ideology as long as public schools with public review and oversight were the dominant form of education. Thus, Republicans modeled a private school policy in the 1980’s modeled after Catholic Parochial schools as a safe haven for producing a future of more Republican favoring ideological voters. Their one big hurdle was how to get tax payers to pay for these schools. Charter schools with tax vouchers as their answer to the problem. It not only funded private ideologically based schools potentially, but would underfund public schools, which they perceived as the deterrent to future politically indoctrinated voters.

It was a partially successful plan, but, the social costs attending such a policy implementation have been enormous, to the point of crippling our entire educational system and eroding the common sense base of the American people and electorate which came about in the wake of universal public education in decades previously.

You are quite right in your assertion, though, terse. Obama is a moderate Republican of 25 years ago, though in the new paradigm, he is now labeled a radical Leftist by the unrelenting Right to push this nation into the corporate capitalist bankruptcy model based on boom and bust monopolistic cycles, which lie at the heart of conservative ideology and economics, inescapably. It is incredible to me that nearly half of the nation now believes that tanking the economy and bringing on great recessions and depressions is preferable to government safety nets, oversight and regulation of commercial interests and public education, which are inextricably linked in conservative policy objectives.

There has been no greater proponent of such doctrine that Newt Gingrich, which is why people should be paying far more attention to what he says and what he writes. He is not the prime mover of the Right’s policy agenda anymore, but, he is the most vocal and transparent of its proponents. His ego can’t help himself from becoming the lighthouse on the Reef, warning of impending shipwreck on the reefs of conservative doctrine and policies.

Yes, a lot of folks are down on Beck.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Glenn_Beck
But, a lot of folks are also up on Beck
WIKI: “As of September 2009 Beck’s program drew more viewers than all three of the competing time-slot shows on CNN, MSNBC and HLN combined.”
I tend to like Beck. One reason, he became a celeb the REAL way, from a recovering alcoholic, like most rock stars, country music singers and any one of import in this country. My pun for the day.
To me, Beck seems to be determined to educate the masses in history and politics while linking our current political situation to that of the past. For instance, his staff put together video and audio of several radical types that found their way into the Obama administration. Documented so that there was no room to refute. I sure wasn’t aware of that, never heard any of that through the media during the campaign years. Then, he cranked out Anita Dunn, another admin type, stating that Mao and Mother Theresa were two of her favorite philosophers, on tape. From CNS news, “White House Communications Director Anita Dunn told high school students in May 2009 that one of her favorite political philosophers was Mao Tse Tung, the Communist dictator responsible for the death of millions of people, and she explained why his philosophy was important for achieving personal and political goals.” Then there is Mark Lloyd, the admin’s FCC diversity czar. http://therealbarackobama.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/mark-lloyd-redistribution-of-wealth-czar-at-the-fcc/
Article excerpt: “[Lloyd] said the rise and influence of Rush Limbaugh and other conservative radio hosts were traced to “relaxed ownership rules” and other pro-business regulation that destroyed localism.
While he said he was not interested in reinstating the Fairness Doctrine, he called for “equal opportunity employment practices,” “local engagement” and “license challenges” to rectify the that perceived imbalance. “Nothing in there about the Fairness Doctrine,” he wrote.
“The other part of our proposal that gets the ‘dittoheads’ upset is our suggestion that the commercial radio station owners either play by the rules or pay. In other words, if they don’t want to be subject to local criticism of how they are meeting their license obligations, they should pay to support public broadcasters who will operate on behalf of the local community.”
http://www.reclaimthemedia.org/media_literacy/bias/glenn_beck_attacks_local_media2139
Article excerpt: “In the wake of their success in ousting Van Jones from his position as green jobs advisor, Beck and his minions have targeted Mark Lloyd as the next progressive black leader to take down, falsely calling him a diversity “czar” and making outrageous accusations about his policies. Although we at the Prometheus Radio Project are always happy to see more public engagement with the agency that regulates our media, we’ve been disappointed in the quality of the debate on Mark Lloyd. Debate, in fact, is overstating it.
Rightwing radio hosts Michael Savage and Glenn Beck have sunk to McCarthyism, calling Lloyd a communist, a Marxist, and “the new KGB.” Savage goes beyond this when he calls Lloyd a “neo-Nazi,” and dehumanizes him as “vermin” and “a piece of garbage.” Hate speech on Glenn Beck and other conservative talk shows is nothing new, but these attacks aren’t simply racist. (Although that’s part of the story.)
The attacks are a coordinated assault on the principles of localism and diversity, organized by the rightwing Media Research Center’s Orwellian “Free Speech Alliance.” Members include media giants like Clear Channel and the National Religious Broadcasters along with a slew of anti-immigrant, anti-gay, anti-choice, and anti-Muslim groups. Their “save talk radio” campaign mobilizes “social conservative” grassroots to fight for the economic interests of the country’s largest broadcasters.
To rally the radical rightwingers, Beck, Limbaugh, and Savage are propagating a ludicrous Media Research Center claim that Lloyd supports a $250 million fine on commercial broadcasters, equal to 100% of their operating budgets, that would go to fund NPR.
The claim is a distorted reference to a 2007 report that Lloyd co-authored, “The Structural Imbalance of Political Talk Radio.” Published by Free Press and the Center for American Progress, the report recommends that commercial broadcasters who do not meet their public interest obligations (suggested obligations include local public affairs broadcasting and more public oversight of license renewals) pay a fine—not 100%, but 1% (in medium markets) or 5% (in large markets) of their budget. The fine would be earmarked for local public affairs programming on public broadcasting. In other words, if you don’t want to cover locally relevant issues and or be accountable to community feedback on your own airtime, you can pay someone else to do it for you. The $250 million figure that Beck cites is the total sum that this fee could net nationwide, not the fee itself.”
Then, there was the Van Jones outing: “The Obama administration’s special adviser for environmental jobs, Van Jones, has resigned citing what he described as a “vicious smear campaign” against him. For the past month, Fox News has run a series of reports on Jones’s alleged association with communists and his decision to sign a petition calling for a congressional probe of the 9/11 attacks.
Excerpt from Beck website: “VAN JONES: This movement is deeper than a solar panel, deeper than a solar panel. Don’t stop there. Don’t stop there. No, we’re going to change the whole system. We’re going to change the whole thing. We’re not going to put a new battery in a broken system. We want a new system. We want a new system.
“http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/08/30/howard-kurtz-glenn-beck-attacking-van-jones-because-ad-boycott
Excerpt from newsbusters: “BECK: All right. You know, what we’re uncovering here on this program is complex, and it is — it takes a lot of our day just to figure out how to explain it to you. And it’s complex by design. You know, it’s the vast left-wing conspiracy.
The Apollo Alliance combines environmental policy, the green movement, with labor and social justice. Why is that troubling? Maybe it’s the guy behind the curtain making it all happen. He’s a former black nationalist and self-professed communist.
Here is Phil Kerpen. He is the director of policy for Americans for Prosperity.
Phil, how are you, sir?
PHIL KERPEN, AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY: I’m good, Glenn. How are you?
BECK: Good. Tell me about — tell me a little bit about Apollo and these — I have ACORN and the Black Farmers and the Sierra Club and Greenpeace and AFL-CIO and SEIU. Why are these thee categories — how are they tied to Apollo?
KERPEN: Well, the Apollo Alliance is designed to bring together the elements of organized labor with the community organizers with the green groups, the environmental groups, and to access all of the big foundation money that’s been supportive of those causes in the past. So, it’s kind of — Van Jones, who you mentioned, the self-described communist who is now green jobs czar, he described the Apollo Alliance mission as sort of a grand unified field theory for progressive left causes that ties all these things together.
BECK: OK. And Apollo is named Apollo. Do you know why it’s named Apollo?
KERPEN: Yes. They really admire the Apollo mission, the moon shot mission, and they think that we need a similar centrally-planned, organized massive mobilization to reorder society and take control of energy and their various other objectives. They admire that.
BECK: I saw.
KERPEN: . and they want it like a moon shot.
BECK: Right. And I saw on their Web site, and I can’t remember the exact quote, but it’s something like “massive and fast.” They wanted something like the moon shot that could happen and just be launched quickly. OK. So, Van Jobs — Van Jones, he is the self-proclaimed communist. He is — he is one of the founding members of Apollo, right?
KERPEN: That’s right.
BECK: OK.
KERPEN: The national Apollo, yes.
BECK: OK. And then we have Wade Rathke — Wade Rathke, who is the founder of ACORN. He was on the board of directors, if I’m not mistaken, of the institution that is funding and paying for Apollo, right?
KERPEN: Yes. He’s on — he was until this year on the board of the Tides Foundation and the Tides Center, which are the parent organizations that host the Apollo Alliance.
BECK: OK. So, Wade Rathke, ACORN, Tides Center, they decide that they’re going to fund and create Apollo. One of the founders is the guy who went to jail — this is during the Rodney King thing — he went to jail and he was just a black nationalist. He came out a communist and he also then started looking into the green movement, and he is the guy who said, “Hey, if we tie labor and ACORN and Greenpeace together, we’ve got a super- powerful group, Apollo.”
Is it true Apollo helped design the stimulus package?
KERPEN: They did. They put out a draft stimulus bill last year in 2008. It included almost everything that ended up being in the final stimulus bill. Harry Reid has thanked them for helping design the final stimulus package that was enacted into law. And they brag on their Web site that they helped design this thing and push it through.
BECK: OK. SEIU, this is the — this is the labor group, that they’re the ones pushing through health care. This is — this is ACORN/SEIU. Their vice president is on the board of directors of Apollo, correct?
KERPEN: Yes. Gerland Hudson (ph), the vice president of SEIU, is on the Apollo board of directors.
BECK: OK. Can you tell me where John Podesta fits in to all of this?
KERPEN: John Podesta is also on the Apollo board. He, of course, is also the president of the Center for American Progress, which sends out the daily marching orders, the talking points for the left side of the blogs and the online activists. And those organizers out on the street, the ACORN and SEIU folks, they get their daily talking points from that Center for American Progress e-mail.
BECK: OK. America, I would like you — I just like to ask you, Barack Obama keeps trying to separate himself from all of these organizations. He’s telling us — he’s giving speeches and saying, “I’m one of you, guys; I really am one of you.” But then these organizations he’ll always distance himself over and over and over again from the individuals.
But let me ask you this — John Podesta, Van Jones, who is now his green jobs czar, an avowed communist, we’ve got the SEIU, who’s in his office once a week talking about labor. They’re the ones who were negotiating with all of the health care industry. He’s in the Obama’s office all the time. Wade Rathke, former founder of ACORN. It all ties to the Tides Center.
But who’s really at the top of all of this? Who’s the one that’s trying to stay away from all of it and say I have nothing to do with it? Obama. But if you look at what Apollo, social — see, if this sounds familiar, like, maybe, I don’t know, the way we’re going to transform America: social justice, the green movement, and labor unions.
Maybe it’s just me, Phil. Can you talk me out of the crazy tree here and saying that’s — this is exactly what Barack Obama stands for, and these are his soldiers?
KERPEN: Well, look, there are a lot of connections here that makes it look like that certainly the case. Of course, we’ve got John Holdren, the science czar, who’s also tied up with a lot of these folks. We’ve got Jason Grumet, who was the chief advisor for energy on the Obama campaign, who’s also on the board of John Holdren’s group, the National Energy Commission, which is also tied in with these folks.
I think that if you look at Obama’s past, he was an organizer for ACORN. He was actually their chief national trainer. If you look at all the organizations that are actually doing the footwork to push through all the elements of the Obama agenda, and it’s pretty clear that he’s part and parcel of these radical movements. He really can’t separate himself from them, in my view.
BECK: I don’t know how you can put self-acclaimed communists as a czar and claim you’re not part of that. I don’t know how you can is surround yourself with radicals and say that you have nothing to do with that. This man is a radical. Please talk me out of the crazy tree, America.”
In brief, Beck has done much to educate folks and point out some things going on relative to ‘wealth distribution’ that few were aware, certainly not from media sources during the campaign.
Marysdude, can you help me out with some of Beck’s racial content?

To teach people history, one first has to know it, them self. Beck, reminds me of those students who barely passed history using Cliff Notes, instead of reading the far lengthier textbooks to acquire a true understanding. He constantly quotes entirely misinterpreted by him and lacking understanding of their original intent and context. His reverence for the Articles of Confederation completely ignores John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin’s throwing them out as toothless, incapable of taxation to give them teeth, and hence, the Constitution was born. Beck, is a charlatan, and an often very ignorant one at that.

Of course, even murderers have some endearing qualities to their mothers and boyhood friends. Beck is not all bad, and all his arguments and tirades are not without merit. But, it is his ignorance on so many other facts and history that render his show incredible, as in lacking credibility, except to those who also don’t know their history and listen to Beck uncritically.

To the extent, as I said before, that Beck motivates a small portion of the public to vote anti-incumbent, he and his show do our country some good. I wouldn’t take him off the air. But, I can’t waste my time on his ignorance, watching it much, either. There are far more credible sources than Beck available, many of which are found on the History Channels, and the America series. If I want entertainment, The Colbert Report is hilarious, and far more worthy of my time than Beck.

www.watch59.com

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