Third Party & Independents Archives

I disagree. The last thing our growing tea party types need is another cause like people getting punished by the government for not complying. This would put us a step closer to civil war. It’s happened before.

I also think with the low participation and the complicating factors like people moving all the time that some sort of statistical method of counting or estimating would be atleast as accurate and wildly cheaper and easier. My understanding is the Republicans don’t want this as they count on the poor being undercounted.

Schwamp said: “The last thing our growing tea party types need is another cause like people getting punished by the government for not complying.”

Then change the law. But, to take your position is to argue for an increase in contempt of the law, and that road leads to the Fall of Rome and some say even, Ancient Greece.

Do you really favor some people having the law enforced against them and other people not? That is the result of your stated position. The law has to be equally applied or we cease to be a nation governed by the rule of law.

Tea Partyers I have seen have no regard for the law and advocate all manner of breaking them. Secession, violence, hate speech, advocacy of not paying taxes. All these and more lead to anarchy. Sorry to hear you have joined that camp. Though it wasn’t much of a camp by the numbers that showed up in Wa. D.C. for Tea Party day this week.

David R. Remer writes:

Do you really favor some people having the law enforced against them and other people not? That is the result of your stated position. The law has to be equally applied or we cease to be a nation governed by the rule of law.

No. Your article did not cite any examples where it was enforced. But without a law it becomes optional. They are trying to do their job without stirring up a hornets nest. I give them credit for navigating a delicate situation; and if Rome falls it would not be because we didn’t declare war over census forms. You are advocating an un-necessary disaster. Over application of logic is not always best unless your living on Vulcan.

Schwamp, sorry, but your argument COMPLETELY fails to address the 1.5 BILLION dollars it costs for non-compliant citizens.

As a taxpayer, I would like them to pay back in fines some of that 1.5 Billion dollars they cost the rest of Americans.

Guess your argument supports a welfare government that spends, asking nothing in return.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204908604574332950796281832.html

The census taking, like nearly every thing else government has put their hands on, has been skewed, abused as the cited url outlines.

If the Fed can’t enforce their own immigration laws why would they expect us to knock ourselves out on the census?

I worked for the Commerce Dept. on three separate occasions during the last census. I worked first as a mapper, updating their century old maps. In 2000, I worked as a door to door census taker and was later called back to make a final attempt to contact and get compliance from about a hundred households that had refused or couldn’t be contacted. Part of my job was to leave literature stating that the next visitor would be the Sheriffs Dept.

jlw, like the linked article said, The Sheriff rarely actually shows up. Of course, this would vary from one enforcement district to another. But, overall, enforcement is a joke, and the fines are rarely levied.

Roy, thanks for the link, and good point. One more reason to VOID those incumbents in Congress who do not mandate enforcement of their own laws.

David,
As far as I know every American Student is shown the Constitution at least once in the mandated 12 years of Public Schooling so I do have a problem with Adults claiming Ignorance of their Civil and Constitutional Duties, Rights, and Responseability. However, seeing being Politically Incorrect prevents me from telling Glen Beck and others they are All Wet.

Nevertheless,I do believe it was Wise of America Founding Fathers of America and the Acient Ones of Songs found in the Upanishads of Sanskritonly to give a few Humans the Power of Authority.

Besides, wouldn’t it be cheaper if Americas’ Democratic and Republican Civil, Political, and Religious Leaders pay the Individual Citizen instead of spending millions to get a Corporation to respond?

Henry,

Reading the Constitution is no guarantor of understanding its broad and sweeping import and implications. This is why we have Ph.D’s in Constitutional Law. Even after so very many years studying it, many a professor will admit to not being educated in all its ramifications and implications and subsequent legal results. The law, especially in America, is a lifelong study, with always some new aspect to discover and learn about. All law, regulations, and ordinances in America stem from Constitution which provides for it. To say it is voluminous is an understatement.

Still, one of the very remarkable qualities of our Constitution is that the gist of it is easily graspable by anyone with average intelligence and what should be a high school graduate literacy level. Which is an indictment upon our educational system that so many who have graduated high school have so little grasp of this gist of our Constitution. When people argue, “I don’t agree with this or that law or policy and therefore, it is unconstitutional”, they reveal their ignorance in a most obvious and profound manner, without ever realizing it.

Michelle Bachmann comes to mind, and she is a U.S. Representative. Her role speaks to the educational and intelligence level of the constituents who elected her. Why they are not embarrassed by her, speaks to their not knowing what they don’t know.

David,
Even Michelle Bachmann deserves her right to be ignorant and to represent those citizens who would rather stay ignorant than embrace change; however, I do believe why they can cry all they want the Common Knowledge and Common Sense of Man is always on the run.

Besides, I remember something being said that is why Man had to build Bridges in the first place.

We can argue that a lack of intelligence and/or a lack of desire for information is a major problem in regards to good governance. Considering the fact that choices are limited in a two party system, I don’t see this as the major problem considering that the only input into governance they have is to elect politicians.

The real problem is the peoples desire to believe that their politicians are intelligent, well informed and wise problem solvers. Although they are consistently disappointed in the results, they persist in supporting the two parties and place one or the other in power, while expecting different results.

In addition, our politicians have gone to great lengths in an effort to make themselves indispensable by hiring armies of lawyers to write unnecessarily complicated legislation which has taken on a life of it’s own and which not only the constituents but the politicians themselves can’t understand.

In reality, the only decision that voters can make is a decision on which of the two ideologies shall we elect this time, the government/corporate partnership ideology of the corporate controls government ideology.

So, we will have to punish all those underrepresented people? We can get at all those illegals who avoid the census as well as all those homeless and poor people who just don’t care.

jlw said: “I don’t see this as the major problem considering that the only input into governance they have is to elect politicians.”

But, believing and following their politician’s lies and misinformation and ideologies, contributing to their campaign funding, and showing up at their rallies like good little sheep, is the major problem.

Our schools do not teach students how to independently and rationally examine the rhetoric and voting records of their representatives in comparison to real world results and analysis.

More Republic and less democracy is called for when the electorate is incapable of such independent analysis. The problem is, we turned in a lot of Republic for democracy with Universal suffrage, and that genie ain’t going back in the bottle. Leaving reforming our educational system to elevate political literacy substantially, the only course of action.

DR
Yeah, they should have said it was a legal requirement of citizenship with penalties for non-compliance. Of course enforcement would still be wind up being of the mattress tag removal enforcement frequency. There are just too many violators. How about we change the law so that failure to comply means you lose your franchise to vote ? Come on Teaparty.

David, the people are being paid back for their indiscretions.

A rogue government who’s primary concern has been and still is the health of the stock market and the corpocracy.

jlw, in general, I can’t argue with your statement. It remains true that the lobbyists have far too great an influence upon legislators and control over the reelection outcomes. And the deeper pockets of these lobbyists will be found on Wall St. and corporate executive offices.

But, this is just one of myriad negative consequences of a falling and failing educational standard in America. As nearly everyone of our founding fathers were aware, democracy is absolutely dependent upon an informed and vested electorate. Which is why universal suffrage was the furthest thing from their minds in the 18th century when the majority of Americans were illiterate and had little vested in the actions of the government.

We now have vastly more democracy. And despite the dramatic increases in education in America since the 18th century, education, especially civic and history education, have not kept pace with the suffrage movement’s demand for a rational, vested, and educated electorate. We have a sizable minority of our population which denigrates higher education and distrusts those with degrees prominently affixed to their public reputations. Thus sheep are made into flocks and herded by the educated who downplay their own ivy league education and espouse rhetoric designed to appeal to more irrational character of their undereducated constituents.

This plays equally as beneficial to politicians on both sides of the aisle. Falling educational standards are a bi-partisan product of both our local and federal education bureaucracies run by politicians seeking a lesser informed and more manipulatable electorate, to insure their reelection probability.

Somehow, I’ve gotten something of a reputation as a conservative radical around here. That said, I filled out my census form and sent it right in.

Whatever our objections may be an accurate count is very important, important enough to put up with irritations and solve them at the ballot box.

So how many of you were the same people bashing the patriot act because it was so intrusive? How many of you scream “racist” every time someone asks our government to enforce immigration law?

Seems that you would support the powers given to government by the people to protect and defend our country (its REAL job) and recognize when government oversteps the constitution in the case of the census.

How hard is it to realize that “enumeration” was the power given to the government for purposes of representation of US citizens (not a race, not a group defined by home ownership, not special interests, etc.) ?

Some want to over analyze the constitution and twist it into something that suits them. IT’S NOT THAT HARD PEOPLE!!

You’ll stand by like a thirsty herd of sheep and lap up anything your government doles out to you as long as “your guy” is in the White House or your party controls congress. You’ll give up your own rights and dignity to politicians who make more money and break more laws daily than most of those they “control”.

It’s NOT about a party! It’s about a strong commitment to our founding principles and the ideas upon which they were based that will keep our government in check…no matter WHICH party is in control!! Do you not see that our country was founded to escape the very things that are being repeated now by dishonest and dishonorable men and women in Washington?

Have some backbone and realize that your compliance with the erosion of our God-given rights will hurt EVERYONE…not just those you disagree with!

I personally will not ride that train with you! I choose to live by principle and forge a path back to where our country was strong and valued individual liberties. The tracks our country travels now lead to a “nanny” state and will most certainly destroy what is left. I for one will do my part to repair the tracks and get things moving in the right direction.

In the 1940’s the US War Dept. used information obtained by the census bureau to round US citizens of Japanese decent. These American’s were stripped of their property and sent to internment camps. The census has NO constitutional authority to obligate you to answer any question, beyond the number of persons living in your household. And even if you do not answer that question, the constitution limits the amount of potential fines to $100.00 Don’t be bullied by big brother.

It is my understanding that the census, which began in 1790, is intended on helping the federal government allocate tax revenue to state and local areas. Also, after 72 years your data becomes public so that your family can have access to vital genealogical information. Its to benefit us. I find it ridiculous that someone can be so self absorbed that they don’t want someone to know what age they are or what their middle initial is. Just do it for your community.

Sad that the 4th Amendment is being put aside for personal information of citizens in the Brave new Amerika.

Mr. Boortz never said don’t return your census. He said they are only entitled to the number of people living in your home. that is all the constitution requires. the other form they send businesses is not a census, and I don’t fill them out either. They are about ten pages long and nothing they ask is any of there business.