Third Party & Independents Archives

From Subversive Talk to Revolutionary Results

Normally, when I read a new book I like to get the essential message or theme of it quickly, so I can decide whether I will continue reading it very carefully or just make it a quick read. For Mickey Z.’s new book SELF DEFENSE FOR RADICALS: A to Z Guide for Subversive Struggle, I had to wait for page 7.

That's when I hit this statement:

“The current patterns of dissent in America are long overdue for re-evaluation and overhaul. The powers-that-be have long ago figured out how to either marginalize or co-opt dissent. Until our tactics evolve, we remain accomplices to the perpetual global crime we call civilization.”

This statement totally resonated with me. For many years I have written about my disillusionment with the lack of an effective, aggressive and even revolutionary dissent movement in the US. Maybe, I thought, Mickey Z. has some answers. Just maybe this small book could help bring the changes real subversives have been waiting for.

One message is that Americans are under attack and have every right to metaphorically bite back or better yet to take the offensive and hit first, even if it means fighting dirty, when the danger is very real.

In the quest for justice and genuine social change in American, Mickey Z. tells us it is time to fight for real.

Readers will have to accept the fact that this book is like one very big metaphor. Physical action against a threat I think is intended to instill more of a fighting consciousness among all kinds of people seeking solid changes in a very unjust, corrupt and sick society. Some may jump to the conclusion that Mickey Z. is promoting violence, but I am not so sure about that. What definitely seems to be the case is that the author is really fed up with dissent in America that is big on talk and very weak on results, which, after all, seems entirely correct if you, like me, see our nation with its two-party plutocracy and the whole planet slipping faster down the toilet.

Posted by Joel S. Hirschhorn at November 18, 2009 2:57 PM
Comments
Comment #291154

Joel, I’ve been in Mickey Z’s camp for about 20 years. It felt sure Regan and Rubin was leading us down the path to hell. But, at that time wasn’t aware that the government would forge an all out assault on middle class/working folks. With the immigration thing and the NAU I became convinced the government planned to put us on a level playing field with developing world economies. Little by little the federal government is, like Beck claims, taking control of everything. Incrementally they have put so much law in place regarding amnesty that it will be impossible to try and deal with the immigration problem other than giving them citizenship. HHS has been given millions in stimulus for job creation and they are spending it by building border cross facilities across the soutwest where there is currently no need. But, rest assured there will be a need as they incrementally put the NAU concept into fruition. Every day, every day the dems are loading up registered voters through the works of ACORN and similar organizations. I think when people are out of work and going without food in really large numbers lthey will then look to a solution. But, I believe at that point there will be no legal options left. Their choice will be to either fight or go with the flow. The middle class will become the manure for Socialism and whatever that brings.

Otherwise, we have the government we deserve.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at November 20, 2009 6:26 PM
Comment #291158

Roy wrote; “Their choice will be to either fight or go with the flow. The middle class will become the manure for Socialism and whatever that brings.”

Put me in the fight column please. I already have determined my targets. I will not leave this planet with a whimper.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 20, 2009 7:31 PM
Comment #291168

Oh, boy.

Sorry boys, but you can count me out. This is utter nonsense. Perhaps you guys should join the teabaggers. The point of these columns is civil discourse, not revolution or terrorist tactics.
If you don’t get that just because the majority doesn’t move as quickly as you like, that doesn’t justify becoming the opposite of what democracy represents. It just might mean you are in the fringe.

Posted by: gergle at November 20, 2009 9:35 PM
Comment #291177

gergle, your first mistake is to believe where we are going is representative of a democracy.

“It just might mean you are in the fringe.”

I don’t think so. America is 20% liberal, 35% moderate, and 40% conservative. Guess who owns the guns and knows how to use them.

Posted by: propitiation at November 20, 2009 11:41 PM
Comment #291178

Revolutions almost always lead to oppression and this post implies why. Clearly, most people do not want what revolutionaries are selling. Revolutionaries roll up there sleeves and treat them violently to teach them the lessons.

I like this thing we call civilization when I consider the alternatives. Please don’t call me an accomplice. I am an active perpetrator and defender of that order.

America is not like those revolutionary places. Here the guys with guns and the skills and inclination to use them tend to be hostile to “leftist revolution”. Our “revolutionaries” are wimpy college kids from rich families. They enjoy protesting while young. When they get older, they talk left, but live right. If there was a revolution here in America would probably be to kick out the leftist establishment and guys like Mickey Z would be among the first mounted on the hood of somebody’s pickup truck.

I am not sure I agree with Roy that we get the government we diverse, but it we do indeed have the basic system we want. That is why we all constantly complain but don’t take the steps to make big changes.

Posted by: Christine at November 20, 2009 11:49 PM
Comment #291190

christine:

“I like this thing we call civilization …”

Civilization is only days away from anarchy, that is the nature of man. If we look at some major nations in just the past 60 years, I’m sure the Germans, Russians, and Japanese considered themselves to be civilized. But, there are black marks on their history, that can never be erased.

Posted by: propitiation at November 21, 2009 9:25 AM
Comment #291191

Propitiation,

How does one distinguish between a revolutionary freedom fighter and nutjob thug that should be locked up?

I’m just curious.

Posted by: gergle at November 21, 2009 9:50 AM
Comment #291196

If we are talking revolution, it requires a following, not just a nut job. I’m sure there were those on the left who called the American revolutionaries, “nutjob thugs”. Some things never change.

Posted by: propitiation at November 21, 2009 10:20 AM
Comment #291197

I see the economy, the country as a small flat rock being skipped across the water.

We have the government we deserve.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at November 21, 2009 10:25 AM
Comment #291200

Propitiation,

So you think there is a following for revolution in this country?

Posted by: gergle at November 21, 2009 11:13 AM
Comment #291214

Gergle wrote; “The point of these columns is civil discourse, not revolution or terrorist tactics.”

Our Constitution does not require suicide or surrender gergle, so for me and mine…we will fight, in whatever manner required, to maintain our freedom.


Posted by: Royal Flush at November 21, 2009 2:13 PM
Comment #291217

Where Thomas Jefferson leads, I shall follow.
He suggest we are failing as citizens of the Republic if every 20 years or so we don’t ‘throw the bums out’ in some fasion. Several Founder’s warned us to be every vigilant re corruption and concentrated power. Throughout our brief history our leaders have continually warned us of ever increasing corruption and abuse of power.
Is it an abuse of power to refuse to enforce the law of the land? What can you say about a government that continually goes against public sentiment?
Here is a follow on the P. Canal. Recall that the canal was turned over to Panama at the bequest of the communist dude, known best as the ‘father of the NAU’. We didn’t need the canal as it was not big enough for big ships and aircraft carriers, just a wide, antiquated ditch. China will finish the widening of the canal in 2014. Md. has just leased the Port of Baltimore to Ports USA for the next 50 years. The State will immediately get $100M and collect $15 for every container over 500,000/yearly.
Without any further words we can connect a couple of dots, IMO. China/Mex is building a big port there. HHS is building border crossing checkpoints of courthouse statue all across the southern border. Plug in the NAFTA highway and the NAU concept and just turn it over in your brain.
Big ships and 12 lane highways. Is that needed to bring cheap plastics into the US? Seems more like a capability that can deliver cars, tanks, planes, trains, electric can openers and the like. Wonder what will be mfctrd in the US?
Has there been any debate/discussion about big ships, big roads, NAU, etc? Should we suppose the big ships and roads will carry big consumer goods overseas on their return trips?
Im my mind I can imagine a piece of graph paper on which I mentally plot the trajectory of all things supportive of the US for the past 30 years. The line ends up in the lower right hand corner of the paper.
My measure of a failed government, a dangerous government.

However, we do have the government we deserve.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at November 21, 2009 2:57 PM
Comment #291224

“The current patterns of dissent in America are long overdue for re-evaluation and overhaul. The powers-that-be have long ago figured out how to either marginalize or co-opt dissent. Until our tactics evolve, we remain accomplices to the perpetual global crime we call civilization.”


I think, that it’s true. We don’t need such civilization.

Posted by: ilona@israel at November 21, 2009 4:46 PM
Comment #291225

Is that what I said gergle??

Posted by: propitiation at November 21, 2009 5:16 PM
Comment #291228

Agree ilona@israel. Corporations of any size are international in their organization and politics. I think most folks understand and accept that. How corporations act is not the problem, IMO. Most countries operate under a set of laws delivered through some kind of government. The rub comes when government is bought and paid for by the corporatists. Understandable that an ExXon/Mobil can buy up a Greece or Spain. Just as understandable that, through combined efforts, they can buy up Germany’s, Britain’s, the US and the like. Well, the corporatists set this new world order thing in motion and there seems little to challenge their plan outside an occassional ‘TEA’ Party or an environmentalist tree setter, etc. Kinda like taking a bumpy ride around the side of a cliff.
Looks like the Sunni’s and Shite’s are cranking it up. Wonder how these corporatists governments would react to an Iran-Saudi scuffle? Maybe then they might permit some form of alternative energy such as olive oil or dolphin blubber.

Otherwise, we have the government we deserve.
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Posted by: Roy Ellis at November 21, 2009 5:28 PM
Comment #291246

Propitiation,

I see you chose not to answer the question. Convenient.

You did say,

gergle, your first mistake is to believe where we are going is representative of a democracy.

“It just might mean you are in the fringe.”

I don’t think so. America is 20% liberal, 35% moderate, and 40% conservative. Guess who owns the guns and knows how to use them.

You then said,

christine:

“I like this thing we call civilization …”

Civilization is only days away from anarchy, that is the nature of man. If we look at some major nations in just the past 60 years, I’m sure the Germans, Russians, and Japanese considered themselves to be civilized. But, there are black marks on their history, that can never be erased.

In response to her comment about revolution.

If you believe we are headed toward or near anarchy or some other form of government than democracy in a OP about revolution, I think it is natural to assume you are contemplating ideas of revolution.

You believe you fall in the center apparently of the 40% who call themselves conservative. Do all those forty percenters believe we are headed away from democracy? I doubt it. Given many of your statements on this site….you quite frankly seem to stand with a certain fringe.

So what are you averring for, or are you just trolling?

Posted by: gergle at November 21, 2009 11:03 PM
Comment #291247

Royal Flush,

Where exactly did I say surrender your freedom? Is civil debate surrendering freedom? Hmmm. Somehow, I always thought of freedom of speech as one of our most cherished freedoms.

You may wish to fight for your freedom, but if it ain’t under attack, then you would just be another paranoid waving your sword in the air.

Posted by: gergle at November 21, 2009 11:07 PM
Comment #291248

Roy,

The entire intent of Jefferson was to not have people follow particular men, but rather human ideals, founded in equity and Constitutional Law.

Jefferson was also a racist. If you follow him there, you would be guilty of taking America backwards a long way.

Posted by: gergle at November 21, 2009 11:10 PM
Comment #291252

gergle said: “Given many of your statements on this site….you quite frankly seem to stand with a certain fringe.”

Please critique what folks say, not who they are, what their characteristics are, or what group you think they stand with. If you want to label their comments or p.o.v as standing with a fringe group, that is fine.

Posted by: WatchBlog Manager at November 21, 2009 11:58 PM
Comment #291254

Watch the movie The Edge. What one man can do, another can do.

Or put another way, what one man can say, another man can say as well.

I’m a nerd in a variety of disciplines, a film nerd as well. I have a strong interest in communication, and what occurs to me is that it’s not all that difficult in the long run for a consistent message to studied, replicated, and fine tuned for a set of people who want to manipulate others.

Which is to say there is no safe haven in rhetoric. People can manipulate words and other symbols endlessly, twist any abstract system of logic. Humans are just too creative and observant for any other outcome to come of stereotyped messages.

Stop relying on Dogmas. Start thinking for yourself. Learn the arts of rhetoric and argumentation, the arts of communication and aesthetics so you can construct and deconstruct messages in the media as necessary.

And start realizing that the first and best messages are actions that have practical, good consequences.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at November 22, 2009 12:25 AM
Comment #291279

Propitiation, et al,

I apologize for my statement. I am trying to engage you in substantive debate here, rather than sniping remarks. I have noticed a number of bombastic remarks that you have made. I am trying to discover the basis for these.

Posted by: gergle at November 22, 2009 10:17 AM
Comment #291302

gergle,

I think you are trying to back me into a corner and force me into saying I am something I am not. I am trying to discover the basis of your questions dealing with revolution.

Posted by: propitiation at November 22, 2009 2:00 PM
Comment #291332

Propitiation,

Of course I am. Anyone proposing revolution at this time in history of America is by definition fringe, as opposed to your comment that 40% of people identify themselves as conservative. Being a conservative is hardly a being a revolutionary proponent, which makes your response to me suspect and silly.

Posted by: gergle at November 22, 2009 8:17 PM
Comment #291337

Propiation, are you up on this decree that the major religious sectors have signed? The Catholic, Evangelical, and Orthodox churches have agreed to reject abortion and suffer any penalty as an act of civil disobedience. Noted that in Europe hate laws have been used to haul into court some religious leaders who refuse to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples. I hadn’t thought too much about it but this has the potential to change the political landscape bigtime. Seems it would depend more on the response of the masses to the decree rather than those that signed it.

Posted by: Roy Ellis at November 22, 2009 9:03 PM
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