Third Party & Independents Archives

While most of the plans being debated specifically deny acceptance to the plan for people not here legally. There is no provision for enforcement. There is a program “Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) Program” that is in place to verify eligibility for these types of programs. The SAVE program was eliminated from the house proposal due to pressure from the hispanic caucus.

As to costs, you are right David, there is no free healthcare, we will all be forced to pay for the coverage of those that are not paying.

David,

Will Obama enforce ID and citizenship checks on those applying for government paid-for health care benefits?

Forgive my ignorance, but which bill has this nugget in it? I think this is purely a red herring. Which cretin will advocate turning an illegal alien in dire need of medical attention out the door to die on the hospital steps?

There is a difference between including illegals in an insurance plan, and paying for their emergency medical care. I don’t think hospitals should have to carry this burden, but it’s political insanity to think turning away illegals at the hospital would stand for six seconds.

This purposeful confusion cannot be construed in any way as a lie by Obama, unless ALL current politicians take responsibility for funding illegal’s medical care today.

gergle, The issue is government paid health care. ER care costs for illegals are born by every person paying for health care in the private sector. The law prevents turning away persons in need of emergency care. But, that is an entirely separate issue from illegals obtaining tax payer provided health insurance.

The Right wants assurance that just showing up with a part-time job will not qualify an illegal alien for tax payer paid health insurance. It’s a reasonable request that this issue be addressed and the reform law require proof of legal status in the U.S. before tax payer paid health insurance is issued.

Well, I agree and the raids performed by Obama and the jailing of employers speaks volumes to this issue. While I’m certain there will be those that slip through, I see no reason to presume mass fraud at this point. I can’t imagine applying for an insurance card without some form of ID.

Where I don’t agree is the clear confusion with emergency care, which is actually the issue the right is raising, and why I didn’t like the way you presented it above.

CNN’s conclusion:

False. A new report finds the bill could require illegal immigrants to buy coverage, but it clearly restricts subsidies to U.S. citizens and legal residents.

gergle, that’s just plain false. CNN is not concluding that the bill COULD REQUIRE illegals to buy coverage. The bill may permit illegals to acquire coverage absent legal status verification, but would NOT REQUIRE illegals to sign up for it.

A misspoke word, I trust.

gergle

“CNN’s conclusion:

False. A new report finds the bill could require illegal immigrants to buy coverage, but it clearly restricts subsidies to U.S. citizens and legal residents.”

Perhaps you could offer some actual proof of this statement, besides CNN’s editorial.

DRR

As I said before, it’s a moot point. By next year, they will no longer be illegal. Obama will push, or should I dare say, RAM through amnesty.

propitiation, and we are to trust your crystal ball on this?

Logic and objectivity require one to be skeptical regarding any Obama position on illegal aliens, at this point. With arguments ranging from it being impossible and inhumane to export all illegal aliens, to every illegal must be hunted down and prosecuted, and in the absence of any hard position uttered by Obama on this issue, it would seem such prognostications lack either logic or objectivity.

David,

I copied and pasted that from CNN. Not my words. So, no, I didn’t misspeak.

Propitiation,

This will require you to actually read.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text?version=ih&nid=t0:ih:906

The entire text of the bill is here

The immigration definitons are here

Evenually an illegal alien bill will pass and hopefully, be similiar to Pres Bush’s proposed one. Most criminals end up plea bargaining and that’s what this involves. Instead of being permanently sent back, they’ll pay a fine and get legal status. By the way, it’s questionable if illegals cost or save the government money. Many work with fake SS#s, paying into the SS system, but will never be able to collect. Without this free input, the SS system would be in more trouble that it already is.

Healthcare - sure it will cost money. If it is deficit neutral, then taxes will be raised - probably on the highest earners. What’s wrong with that. If you’ve been so lucky or blessed (your pick) to be well off and a good income, why shouldn’t your tax rate be high. Kennedy started the lowering of the upper income tax brackets and that has continued until now when we’ve go the greatest separation between the rich & the poor since the gilded age. By the way - I’ve got great healthcare & an income that should be taxed at a higher rate. In the end, this is a moral issue. Lastly, the well will be forced to get insurance, not because it’s so expensive when they get sick, but because we need them in the plan so that older folks can be covered. As in any insurance, those that don’t collect, pay the costs for those that do. This point and the higher taxes Obama was afraid to talk about. Too bad.

Does anyone find it strange that a major hangup on healthcare is the illegal issue? I’ve got a post in the hopper that goes to the point that IMO the Corpocracy has won the battle on exploitation of illegals as an economic policy. The border has been open since the Regan era, some 30 years and so many illegals have have come in, had childrem amd those children are now having children. Not much to gain in closing the border at this point, IMO.
The Corpocracy moves fast where it can and where it can’t it moves incrementaly. Just as was done with NAFTA and the NAU. Little bites at a time. Healthcare should be no different. IMO the Corpocracy has at least put the hooks in to cover illegals, even if it takes another year or two to effect. In so doing they will be half way to amnesty.
Obama can claim healthcare a national security issue and persuade congress to pass whatever the Corpocracy would like into law.

I think that I fall almost exactly in line with what the polls say about the American people.

I like what the President said, but I wonder if what he said is possible. I also worry that Pelosi (who I, like most Americans, do not like) will push through a more extreme version of the plan and I am not sure Obama is strong enough to stand up to her.

I didn’t like it when Rep Wilson called Obama a liar any more than I liked it when Harry Reid called Bush a liar or when Democrats booed him. Presidents deserve more respect for their elected colleagues. They are not bloggers, after all.

Unlike Obama and Wilson, I think illegal aliens SHOULD be covered. I don’t like it that they are here illegally, but we cannot be so nasty as to deprive them of health care we give all the people in our country. Of course health care will change the nature of illegal immigration, since presumably we will be able to detect them when they sign up for the insurance in the first place and we can choose to deport them right away - before they get sick.

But enforcing laws against illegal aliens is enforcing laws against speeding like speeding. If we strictly enforce the law, we will probably have to make the law more flexible and reasonable. But that is another debate.

The bills in congress should specifically stipulate that tax payer money will not go to things like abortions or elective surgeries, otherwise they will eventually be included.

As for Obama being honest, as David says, he has not been proven dishonest. But we really don’t know what will be in the final bill. Actually president Obama doesn’t know either. Technically, this means he cannot be lying … or strictly speaking telling the truth.

If, as David says, President Obama is making sure the blame falls on Republicans if the bill fails, he is being dishonest.

Remember that Democrats control congress by a strong margin. Republicans have never been as powerful, at least not in most of our lifetimes. Democrats can pass anything they want. If they don’t pass it, it is all on the Democrats. The party in power bears the responsibility. This goes double now when the Democrats are so extraordinarily powerful. Democrats prefer to play the victim role, but now they are perpetrators.

David,
IMHO the Republican Leadership had until sunset to come to the Table with Honor and Pride; however, leaving the Political Hens to defend the actions of Mr. Wilson as others like Palin continued to stay on the Death Panels removes any chance that the Conservatives having a voice under the current conditions.

And why I do hope that President Obama is being honest about listening to others points of view (which something tells me he is) I do believe that the real debate on healthcare is just about ready to begin. For why I doubt if any American today is willing to say that their car is more important than their car, knowing that the Children of the 21st Century can already show their parents and grandparents how to use websites like the National Library of Medicine and Webmd.com to gain information on their health and medical options. I’ll leave it up to My Brothers and Sisters of the 70’s to figure out how to keep the American Dream of every American becoming Medically Self-Sufficient and Self-Insured alive while still trying to figure out how to keep the standard of living enjoyed over the last 30 years.

Because after last night I doubt if the Far Right or Far Left can make the case that becoming Medically Dependent is a path forward. Nevertheless, My question aims at “How Far is it to Medical Freedom?”

Christine said: “Remember that Democrats control congress by a strong margin. Republicans have never been as powerful, at least not in most of our lifetimes.”

Not you, Christine, but, many Republicans seem to be trying to argue two mutually opposing arguments. Yours above, if you meant to use the word, powerless, instead of powerful, and the majority of Americans are right of center. If it is true, that the majority of Americans are right of center, then, Democrats are not nearly as powerful as you argue. On the other hand, if Democrats are so powerful, why are a dozen or so Blue Dog’s creating such havoc with the Democratic agenda?

I personally believe both arguments miss the mark. The advent of the internet which gives voice to every illogical, uneducated, or blind partisan has so polarized the political discussion, that even a minority of these can create considerable doubt and confusion for the public at large regardless of its baselessness.

And the Democratic Party has never been monolithic in my lifetime, and having 59 votes in the Senate does not a filibuster proof Senate make. Which pretty much refutes your argument about the Democrats having so much power as to be immune to Republican lockstep efforts. Poor Olympia Snowe, she wants to do this country the service it deserves by passing health care reform. But, if she votes to do so, she will be labeled a traitor by millions in her own Party. I don’t see Democrats calling Blue Dog’s traitors to their Party. At least not yet.

The Democrat’s reform meets the objectives Republicans say they call for, an end to exclusion by pre-existing condition, and end to policy cancellation due to the rising cost of a particular illnesses treatment, portability, competitive driving down of costs. The Democrat’s plan however, calls for more than just this. As I grew up, I was taught that if the minority Party gets some of what they want included in the majority party’s legislation, it was called compromise and made for good statesman. However, it now appears Republicans will accept nothing less than total capitulation by the majority party if they have anything to say about legislation passing.

Having respected statesman on the Republican side like Jack Kemp, John Warner, and the latter part of Barry Goldwater’s career, I have to ask where are such statesman in the Republican Party, anymore. I would cast Olympia Snowe in that category, but, I doubt many Republicans would agree if she votes for the reform bill with the trigger option. The nation desperately needs to move on health care reform so that the nation can get on with the many other pressing issues which are here, or are to come, like our education deficit, Afghanistan, breaking up too big to fail corporations, and Social Security reform.

It really won’t matter much, what else we deal with, if health care reform does not pass; dislodging it from its perceived moniker as the third rail of politics. I cannot logically foresee any political scenario in which health care reform could pass in the next 12 years if it doesn’t pass this year. And 12 more years without it, will be devastating to our national debt, to the middle class’s consumer capacity, and therefore, our economy.

Henry, prolonging life through medical technology while increasing net births year after year on this planet against a finite resourced global economy, is indeed a prescription for human disaster.

One need look only to Afghanistan, one of the poorest nations on earth, to see what it will be like when such economic dislocation of resources occurs to a nation, regardless of its cultural history. The Fight or Flight syndrome created by rampant disease, fouled water supplies, lack of food or, government resources to maintain law and order, all lead to Fight or Flight group behaviors. Throw in the proliferation of arms around the globe, and Fight accompanied by Flight is guaranteed.

What happens when regional conflicts impede China’s ability to continue its GDP growth and growing demand for modern middle class status amongst its billions? What happens when India’s enormous economic growth casts Pakistan into the shadows as a third world nation with Nukes? What happens to the Middle East if the Green Revolution actually succeeds and their unilateral dependence on oil exports revenues to support government operations is reduced by 50, 75, or even 80% over a decade’s time?

This world has enormously bigger problems facing it than whether everyone in a rich nation like the U.S. should have access to well care or not. Yet, as you imply, if we can’t solve these smaller issues, what are our chances of resolving the bigger ones? And the world is going to need America’s leadership skills. But, if America can’t even deal with its own health care issues where other nations already have, what justifies their looking to America for leadership?

David,
Why I understand your concern about the population growth and do respect the burden placed on Mother Nature to naturally grow the fuits and vegetables needed by Man. I am also aware that America and other nations are on the cutting edge of figuring out certain things that will be able to explain why Mother Nature uses compost and dung to create warm moist air and the nutrients need by the soil to grow the fowlage used by Man and Animal. And why a higher population, draught conditions, and a whole host of other reason may force Americans into growing food inside environmental chambers. Seeing that the technology would provide opportunities for employment, a better source of food, and promote Space Travel (My Favorite One). I wonder if My Brothers and Sisters of the 70’s would have had more children if the same BS was not sold to them hook, lime, and sinker.

For why I realize that the concept of Generational Limited Resources is a proveable argument, I also know that given the Blessings of Recycling, Reclaiming Landfills, and the introduction of a few Plasma Furnances can seriously chance the ratio provide by the experts of the 20th Century. Because why I won’t say that you can make gold of of any of it, can you even put a price tag on all the junk thrown away by Man in the Last 2000 years?

Now, will a Green Society win out against a Fossil Fuel based Economy? Well, I will encourage My Brothers and Sisters of the 70’s to let Their Children guide them. Because why I know that I see a much diifferent future than they do, ask them what a 100% Recyclable Society looks like?

So why you have right to believe that Doomsday is right around the corner or Al Qaeda was right about America, seeing that President Obama, Congress, the Children of the 70’s, and the Children of the 21st Century are standing on 100 year Debate of the Future of “We the People” and some of Americas’ Democratic and Republican Civil, Political, and Religious Leaders are on the edge of taking on Words of Stupidity. Don’t this Unlearned Unbridled Anti-Authoritarian Child of the 70’s by Freewill and Self-Nature have every Fuaranteed Civil and Constitutional Rights to hold the Political View that the Elected Officials of “We the People” can overcome anything the Devil has to throw in front of us.

For why you are aware that I do not understand why things are the way they are, out of Pride, Respect, and Honor I’m working on a project that may just help Americas’ Far Left and Far Right why they have to learn how to use the Tools of Government and Society. Because why I don’t see the civil discord of the Late 60’s and Early 70’s coming back around, I will say that a lesson in American Manners is needed for those who wish to remain in the 20th Century.

The “blue dogs” are affraid of their constituents, but in the end will vote with the democratic leadership.

The dems do not need to break a filibuster, Reid has threatened the “Nuke Option” and he can use it to pass healh care. They have the majority, but like so many other controversial votes over the years, they want republicans to back them for bi-partisan reasons. When it all fails the dems can say, the repubs voted too.

Let the dems ram it through if it so great and they have the power. 52% of americans are flat against this healt care and a larger percentage think more time should be spent in researching the results of the decision. Not to mention the higher percentage that believe it will costs us a lot more than predicted.

propitiation, polls are very fluid things in politics, and so is ignorance. Your poll figures were taken before Obama spoke. After Obama spoke, 3/4 of those who watched his speech favored his plan. And the numbers will change tomorrow, again.

I hope you are right that the Blue Dogs vote for the reform. I also hope that several Republicans recognizing the incredible importance and enormous consequences to the nation of not passing reform this year, also support the reform. If Republicans are waiting for a perfect bill, they will NEVER VOTE on anything designed by the majority party. And that would make them pure obstructionists to America managing its future challenges and needs. Not a position of strength, at all.

Henry, as you know, I vacillate between left and right of hope. Human ingenuity is a marvelous thing. But, human social systems have, over the history of our species, presented a terrible record of actually improving the human condition on anything close to a permanent basis. Hunter/Gatherers were no less, nor more happy in their social groups than we are today as a species. The only difference between them and us, is their lives required attending to far fewer things to maintain them. Our ability to survive as a species is remarkable. Our ability to outgrow predation of others of our species however, remains as limited today as in prehistoric times, despite the efforts of many a great person to elevate the species in this manner.

David,

The only difference between them and us, is their lives required attending to far fewer things to maintain them.

Huh?

Umm, we live a bit longer, more comfortably, and alter and dominate our environment much more effectively. I’m not really sure evading tigers, enemy tribes or starvation in prehistoric times is any less stressful than filing taxes, driving a packed freeway, and listening to maniacal idiot’s like Glenn Beck.

I disagree with the,” man is happier in his primitive state” theories.

I agree the basic emotional/ social nature of man hasn’t changed that much, but then it’s not really under pressure to evolve is it?

And we are far better than hunter/gatherers, lions and tigers at killing each other be it wars of aggression such as Iraq or the street corner drive by. We get better at it every day.

It could be a sign of evolution at work. We could be evolving towards species self-destruction. We have that capability. Perhaps it will be triggered by environmental conditions such as a shortage of resources in the environment.

gergle,

I made no comparisons along the lines of stressfulness. That is your assertion. Life is stressful, prehistoric or modern. Simpler was the measure of comparison I asserted. Simpler invites excellence and repeatable performance by members of the society. Complexity pushes more members onto the fringe of being skilled at virtually nothing useful to their society.

Again, I never made the comparison along lines of happiness. That is your assertion. Happiness is a very, very allusive definition, and entirely unreliable for comparing prehistoric with historic societies.

Since, our species now constitutes its own threat to its own existence, neutron and hydrogen bombs for example, I would have to disagree with you on positing that there is not much pressure to evolve.

jlw, the number of avenues to species and civilization destruction are growing as a consequence of our inventiveness and creativity. Your point is well taken.

DRR

“After Obama spoke, 3/4 of those who watched his speech favored his plan.”

Actually, the poll taken by CNN after the speech included twice as many democrats as it did republicans. It was a slanted poll. But, I will agree there was a slight increased Obama approval rating, but it will drop after his words have been analyzed.

I can’t believe you might possibly accept my analysis of the blue dogs. I hope I am wrong, but blood is thicker than water. It will cost many democrats their seats, but Obama through his grandmother under the bus, what does he care about congress seats?

threw, sorry

David,

Excellent response, and apparently, I misinterpreted your meaning. Thanks for the clarification.

I was only alluding to the illusion of happiness, not actually being happy :)

(Sorry, that typo made me smile at the new meaning)

jlw,

You got David’s drift, I was just being brain dead.

Propitiation,
Old enough to remember when America and Humanity actually wanted to use WMDs to solve their Political and Religious Differences (1962 was about as close to it as they come) The fact that some Citizens still haven’t figured out they are Human has to do more with Class than Education. And as far as President Obama wanting to throw grandma under the bus, what do you call making Healthcare Insurance and Medical Procedures so expenses that she cannot even afford to see the Doctor? Sure you can get sick and know that something can be done but because some Jerk thinks it is their job to deny you coverage you must suffer.

That may friend was around when David and I was young and why I can’t say that My Brothers and Sisters of the 70’s figured out how to be Prefect Adults and Parents than those in the 60’s and Early 70’s. I do believe the fact that America and Humanity only has two Want-a-Be Nations wanting to blow up the world instead of the entire Security Council of the U.N. does show that Americas’ Democratic and Republican Civil, Political, and Religious leaders have moved forward over the last 30 years even if Their Pundits and Spokepersons are still yelling from the middle of the Creek of Stupidity.

David,
The fact that Representative Wilson said the words he did and not that of his fathers does give me a little bit of hope for My Brothers and Sisters of the 70’s; however, in engaging with their children about the 100 year debate and knowing they believe that the Political Argument of their Parents is Stupid. Let’s say that I can only hope President Obama, Congress, and “We the People” can have the conversation that the Youth of the 60’s and Silver Spoons of the 70’s could never have. For after all, Being American deserves and has special meaning does it not?

Henry

Were you and your brothers and sisters in the 70’s smoking a little? I guess I need to smoke some to understand what you just wrote:)

This is supposed to be a political blog. People shouldn’t be wasting time by talking about wasting good smoke.

propitiation, I think you would discover that the reason so many polled were Democrat supporters, if that is the case, is because so many on the Right won’t listen to him before attacking what he other’s told them Obama said (probably out of context or misquoted, I might add). One Republican Congressman admitted he too was upset at Obama’s statement regarding no health insurance for illegals, but, then admitted, that by the end of Obama’s speech, Obama made it clear as a bell, that he was not speaking for any House drafted bill, but, for a bill which he could sign, which has not yet been drafted. Wish I could remember the Congressman’s name. Hard to find such an objective and candid Republican in Congress these days.

So, David, what you are saying, is that Obama was giving a speech for a healthcare bill that doesn’t even exist yet? He was making promises on a ficticious bill. It’s not hard to find republicans who grovel at the feet of Obama. McCain, Snowe, Collins; of course they don’t represent conservatives.

Propitiation,
Told by the Elders and Powers-that-Be of the 70’s to go Teach Our Parents Right from Wrong, I doubt if the Children of the 21st Century really want to have their Rights to be Adults and Parents taklening away from them like the Youth of the 60’s and Silver Spoons of the 70’s. For have you ever heard the saying that if you are over 30 you just con’t understand? Now, care to tell your Parents they don’t understand? Because there is such a saying as being wet behind the ears especially if you believe the Democratic or Republican Ideology is Right Regardless.

David,
For all the grief that President Obama is getting for following the Constitution and letting Congres draft the Healthcare Bill given the guidance of the President of the United States, I wonder if the Right has become so sheepish that they think the President is suppose to write the Bill he/she will sign into Law for Congress? Sure would explain why President Bush had a cheering se4ction in Congress, the Media, and the Public would it not?

BTW, do you know if the Republicans every denied Illegal Aliens a dime. For if I am not mistaken, wasn’t it President Bush and the Republican Congress that gave Illegal Aliens jobs working for the Federal Government right after Katrina and Rita. Care to tell me where Representative Wilson stood on that vote?

As for Polls, I do believe since the Democrats have the whole nation and the Republicans represent a region than the polls should reflect the reality of the numbers and not the one on one that the Conservatives like so much. My only problem about both styles of polls is that they fail to show what the Independents think should be done? Nevertheless, I am glad that they are including the Independents sometimes depending on who is taking the poll and what the goal is.

PS: Every wonder what a poll would look like if the question was given “Do you plan to VOID your Reprentatives and Senators that are not interested in helping the Children of the 70’s and 21st Century build a Better World?”

propitiation, asked: “So, David, what you are saying, is that Obama was giving a speech for a healthcare bill that doesn’t even exist yet?”

Why ask a question like this, when I clearly stated it was a Republican representative who said that? Is there a reading deficiency at work here?

And, to the second part, which should be obvious by catching 15 minutes of CNN on any given day: yes, Obama was referring to a bill that doesn’t exist yet, since, what he called for was not in the House bills which DO EXIST. The Senate’s bill was still being drafted, and DOES NOT YET EXIST.

If you did listen to or read the President’s speech, with some understanding, context, and analysis, how did you miss Obama’s references to

“Now, add it all up, and the plan I’m proposing will cost around $900 billion over 10 years…”

“I will not sign it if it adds one dime to the deficit, now or in the future, period. And to prove that I’m serious, there will be a provision in this plan that requires us to come forward with more spending cuts if the savings we promised don’t materialize.”

His reference to “the Bill I will sign will be deficit neutral”, of course, does not reference any existing House bill, because the lowest deficit of the House bills is $239 billion according to CBO.

And even if you didn’t listen to or read Obama’s speech, simple logic would have led you to the understanding that Obama was talking about a bill that comes out of the Conference Committee which, resolves differences between the House and Senate Bills, and the Conference Bill which is sent to the Pres. for signature or veto, DOES NOT YET EXIST.

David,
Would you not agree that President Obama may be looking at a plan that he would propose if the House or Senate fails to get a bill to his desk?