Third Party & Independents Archives

I guess I’d be shocked if it didn’t happen every election cycle….

He admits he got all his opponents thrown off the ballot. Nothing above is anything that hasn’t been shown before and none of it has been refuted by Barack Hussein Osama Bin Laden Obama al-Chicago’s campaign. I see the new USA Today_Gallup poll has McCain ahead by 10 points(yes, you read that right) nationally among likely voters. Check realclearpolitics. BTW, how can I get this book and spread its contents across the nation?

Yep it’s McCain 54% BHO 44%.

Of course swiftboating being defined as telling the truth about a Democratic candidate in a non-politically correct way.

Thank you Duane-o. Your comments are living proof of Republicans capacity to take in information without question, without verification, and without ever even having read the book.

Voila! I couldn’t have asked for a better proof of how it was that Joseph Goebbels was so successful in acquiring the German people’s support for the Nazi regime, and how it is the GOP, despite the most appalling record of governance since the Democrat’s Jim Crow era, continue to keep a following in American politics.

David Huntwork, if you call the following excerpts truth, your writing’s credibility for truth drops precipitously in my opinion:

And how could he vow to raise taxes and increase government spending exponentially at a time of grave economic crisis…

And how could he promise unilateral retreat from the War on Terror and unconditional talks with foreign despots…

Truth? If this is truth, Palin is a Russian spy by virtue of living just a few hundred miles from Russia and easily in radio contact with Putin, and McCain is a Communist mole, brainwashed for the role by the N. Vietnamese. His past opposition to the GOP agenda is living proof by this standard. !

In the science of probability and statistics, it is important for reliable results to toss widely deviant results, and average the less deviant ones to get a more accurate picture of the trend line. Sampling errors and other kinds of errors are mitigated by this process.

If other polls show a similar bump and spread, then one can begin to rejoice over McCain’s sudden leap in the polls. But, to break open the champagne on the basis of day’s polling by one polling organization, runs the very great risk of wasting the champagne on a very unspecial occasion.

Here are some stats you might find depressing Duane-o:

Obama McCain
RCP National Average 45.7 46.7 McCain +1.0
Favorable Ratings +20.0 +18.2 Obama +1.8
Intrade Market Odds 56.0 43.0 -

Electoral College Obama McCain Toss Ups
RCP Electoral Count 238 174 126
No Toss Up States 273 265 -

Your man still has a very lot of ground to cover where it counts. In the Electoral College.

Ignore the Intrade Market Odds, I haven’t a clue what that is even about, despite its having Obama up 13 points, not McCain.

Did you hear that McCain may be donning Black Face and on one knee, singing a round of Al Jolson’s “Mammy” before the NAACP in an attempt to court the Black vote?

You know just because something is in print, doesn’t give its content credibility or reliability. GOPUSA has little fidelity to reality, facts, or truth. They have one agenda, to keep their Party from losing the last remnants of their power heyday in the U.S. government. And it shows, shows, shows to those who stay in touch with reality and news, and don’t mistake propaganda for real news.

David Remer:

Which areas of the GOPUSA letter do you take the most offense to, as being incorrect?

He has been the farthest left voting Senator, though truly only in 2007, if I’m correct.

Both he and McCain have economic plans that increase govt spending to differing degrees.

Obama has talked openly about pulling out of Iraq, that the “surge” was doomed to failure and that he would talk to world leaders without precondition. Wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s hoping for defeat, but he certainly opposed the “surge” which by almost all accounts has been a success.

He has had a relationship with Ayers (the terrorist), though how close is in question. He has supported Jeremiah Wright until recently, despite a number of questionable statements by Wright, and I’m sure he’s not lilywhite with the Chicago “machine” (no politician on either side could be).

I’d agree that its a pretty divisive letter, and not one that would appeal to me. I’d also say its a pretty common letter in comparison to ones coming from either side. Would you agree that it would be pretty easy to find this kind of article/letter on the other side of the aisle as well? I prefer to ignore such drivel and look at what both sides present, since the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle ground.

The “facts” in the letter seem to be okay, although the conclusions drawn from them paint a picture that is incendiary.

JBOD, read my previous comment to David Huntwork, where I quote the most egregious stretches of the reality and fact.

David,
I not only heard about the Mammi stunt, but a Kramer-like explosion of rage against blacks…..:)

Where’s Forrest Gump when you need him? Stupid is as stupid does.

Yes he did get his opponent removed from the ballot by pointing out the election rules.

What part of the election rules do you have a problem with? This from the same group that says what part of illegal in illegal immigrants dont you inderstand.

I anticipated McCain would be ahead this week. As long as the democrats are foolish enough to keep having their convention first it is going to happen.

Hitler references are used by the weak-minded in every campaign. These mindless comparisons don’t stick because no matter how bad American politics get they do not even come close to what happened in the holocaust. So, imo, the references scream loud and clear the lack of ethics and the lack of good intensions of the accuser.

I heard this morning on Fox News (Fair and Balanced), that BHO is now considering tax cuts as soon as he gets in office, “if the economy continues it’s downward turn”.

According to BHO it has been on a downward turn for the past 8 years, and now he is playing to the American people by offering them tax cuts, while at the same time talking of tax hikes…

Chicago has a history of a corrupt political machine, going back, as far as I know, to the JFK elections. IMO, BHO had the help of this machine to go from a nobody to US Senator.

If my memory serves me correct (and most of the time it don’t), didn’t BHO move the DNC to Chicago when he wrapped up the nomination? I am not stating this as fact, it just seems I heard it several weeks ago.

BHO finally admitted to Bill O’Riley that the surge had been successful, but still said he would not have done it.

And lastly, Hitler and Nazi references are brought up against Republicans during every election cycle. They were brought against GWB in the past 2 elections.

Tom,

This crap, on top of our in-country spying, gives me goose-bumps. Nazis started with less.

>BHO finally admitted to Bill O’Riley that the surge had been successful, but still said he would not have done it.

And lastly, Hitler and Nazi references are brought up against Republicans during every election cycle. They were brought against GWB in the past 2 elections.

Posted by: Oldguy at September 8, 2008 11:52 AM

Old,

First,the so-called ‘surge’ should not have been necessary, and was instituted to make up for previous failures. A successful ‘surge’? I think ‘O’ was very generous with his assessment.

Second, A little introspection might offer the reason why this subject is brought up about the ‘right’.

Tom - David was not calling McCain a Hitler. He was just pointing out the propaganda techniques of those supporting McCain are similar to Goebbels’ methods. There is a difference. If they don’t like to be analogized with the Nazi party maybe they shouldn’t use their techniques.

David Huntwork - you too have been a victim of right wing propaganda if you believe any of the swiftboat crap. They were lies about John Kerry by people who believe the ends justified the means just as the GOPUSA stuff David posted are lies by people who believe that the ends justifies the means. Calling lies the truth over and over again doesn’t make them any more true. People believing in lies doesn’t make them more true. Just because some publisher doesn’t mind printing lies, or that someone with a web page can publish lies doesn’t make it true. Just because you believe in the ends (beating Obama) you have digested this garbage and in your reality they have become true to you but it doesn’t mean they aren’t still lies.

The GOP is trying to make this race about anything but policy because if it was they would loose in Mondale or Dukakis proportions. The GOP is trying to make us believe lies about Obama/Biden and that reform can come from the party that screwed things up so badly in every area of government. The only thing keeping this election close is McCain’s biography and Palin’s story. They are 2 dimensional representations of these people and don’t paint a realistic or truthful portrait of what they would do if given power. I haven’t heard one policy proposal that is any different than George Bush. In fact, they have been pretty slim on policy proposals. Most of their distinction drawing has amounted to nothing more than “me good, him bad.”

David,

I get plenty of spam from both sides.

Schwamp,

I anticipated McCain would be ahead this week. As long as the democrats are foolish enough to keep having their convention first it is going to happen.

It’s tradition for the party not holding the White House to have their convention first. If Obama wins the Democrats will have the second convention next time.

“I get plenty of spam from both sides.”

Does anybody have anything from the Obama campaign or supporters that come close to this level of misinformation and misrepresentation of the facts?

I notice that amidst all this bitter complaint about Nazis, Hitler, incendiary claims, and “shocking propaganda” there is not even one single refutation of a single item on that list. When an argument can’t be won on its merits, I guess it’s time to drag in Hitler and Goebbels.

Duane-O says “He admits he got all his opponents thrown off the ballot.”

Are you sure he didnt say he got his democratic opponent in the primary removed from the ballot Duane-O, becuase the facts are he did run against a repub in the election. In fact wasnt it the conservative Keyes that he beat for the seat?

Do you see Duane-O how easy it is for half facts and misinformation to be spewed as facts? Just because it has been shown before doesnt make it fact and it shows a certain lack of character of those that repeat misinformation as facts.

Man,why do Republicans keep on insisting to use Barack Hussein Obama and get offended by Hussein, Osama or any name with an Arabic/Eastern origin?

They’re just goddamn names, hell on my dad’s side, there are 2 Ali’s, 1 Mustafa and 2 whose last names are Hussein. But they still go to goddamn work every day, go to the store, take care of their kids, and talk about daily stuff, do chores around the house, etc.

Should you use John Sidney McCain every time you talk about him? Like what the hell does Barack Obama, a guy who was raised by a single white mom in the midwest of all places, went to the top law school in the country through studying have to do with Osama bin-Laden, a control freak who hides behind religion to paint the West the same way the West is painting Islam.

I’ve been to Chicago, Philly, NY, Minnesota visitng friends, and Alabama, and at the same time have relatives and visited them in Russia, Syria, Turkey, and England.

And you know what they do? THE SAME DAMN THING WE DO HERE.

They send their kids to school in the morning, go to work, joke around. So to argue that someone isn’t American enough by their background or name is propaganda to serve YOUR own interests and not the country’s. Republicans are better than this crap, and so are Democrats, so far I’ve seen dozens, DOZENS, of these ads online againsts Obama and 2 against McCain.

Have a little bit of an open mind if you’re really set for voting for someone, but don’t tear the other guy down like every goddamn election we’ve had for the past century.

When the hell did America become this wasteland of people who shut their ears or chant “USA USA USA” to anyone who’s against their policies?

Our country was founded on goddamn dissent and we can’t ever let that be taken away. Checks and balances aren’t just in the government, it’s also in the people, the minority of race, religion, orientation, and nationality keep the majority in check along with the popular way of thinking. We have to support those who disagree with us, and argue with them in the American way of doing what’s best for what we are, the collective sum of all the world, not fall to this crap of American nationalism in one party by painting anyone else outside it as unpatriotic or evil.

And to add, more on topic about the message (I tend to get off track).

I would roll my eyes to this stuff if I were the Obama campaign and the same thing with McCain with the 7 houses business. None of this stuff, in regard to the Obama thing, is confirmed, and I mean like go to Chicago, go to these places and people where these incidents went down and ask people and see what they say. Not get crap from a agency or feed.

Like when Republicans like Cindy MCCain said “Alaska’s close to Russia”, like that bull**** can be foreing policy exp. or “Drill Drill Drill” when we’re on the cusp of a clean global revolution, that’s semi-reliable sources, we don’t know what they said afterwards if they cought themselves in a mental fart, which we all have, but aside from asking them ourselves we won’t know.

But bottom line, the McCain campaign should take the damn high road and get this out of circulation and respect that the Obama campaign do the same, as both parties have said time and time again, smear tactics are not tolerated in this race.

Jon, resorting to Rev. Wright-like “damning” is not welcome by most folks, religious or not. And, if you must, it would be intelligent to capitalize The Deity.

LO said “I notice that amidst all this bitter complaint about Nazis, Hitler, incendiary claims, and “shocking propaganda” there is not even one single refutation of a single item on that list.”

LO other than those supporting the GOPUSA position who mentioned Hitler?
For that matter who mentioned “shocking propaganda” I noticed propaganda not shocking, so why the need to use this exaggeration as a defense against those protesting the half truths and lies by ommission perpetrated by GOPUSA.

The reality is the repubs use this type of propaganda often, rememeber Obamas was a Muslim and a Christian Black extremist? Why? I reason it is because the conservative movement followers are very supceptable to such disinformation and deception when applied in a dramatic way. It raises fear in the minds of the conservative followers and keeps them in line. While that may serve your cause it does the Country a disservice. Its hard to be the party of character when you allow this kind of propaganda to be disseminated to your followers. Allow them to make up their own minds based upon facts and issues.

Jim M, apologies for the language, but you have to understand how angry people can get when politics mix with beliefs.

And I don’t see the connection of Rev. Wright and my damns, it’s just a word I use regularly (among others), becuase English isn’t the only language I speak fluently, it’s just the flavour of it to me. That’s one thing I love about America, even in England you can’t find the “colorful” use of language we have here, take any show on HBO for example.

But more on topic, less sidelined but what words, and that’s just what they are, are used, in the words of Former VP Al Gore:

The fundamental principles of American freedom — descended from the Enlightenment — are being corrupted by the politics of fear, the abuse of faith, the power of an increasingly centralized media culture, and degradation of political checks and balances favoring an imperial presidency.

As a Republican and Democrat, one can’t argue with that statement.

The title of the article is where the Nazi reference came in. But there was no comparison to the holocaust as Tom Besly claimed.

But it is the most well known example of propoganda being used to lead a people to evil and ruin. I don’t know if it’s use is appropriate. But in this age of total access information it is frustrating that some have found a loophole that allows them to spread disinformation. That loophole is to simply claim bias at the source.

jon, observe our rules for participation.

WB should be accessible to all ages, and parents and teachers should not have to worry about the language content on this site for their students.

Not only are many of the statements propaganda, but, this was a sales pitch as well. Take note from the GOPUSA quoted material:

That’s why, by special arrangement with the publisher, we’re making The Case Against Barack Obama available to you absolutely FREE — just for trying HUMAN EVENTS.

Free Lube job on your brain just for trying our HUMAN EVENTS, our periodical instructing how you too can become an effective propagandist in the army for Right Wing Domination of THE WORLD!!!!

Can’t wait for the next commercial. :-)

It really is geared toward the simply manipulated, isn’t it?

Although I loath the nazi reference in any context, the correlation is accurate. The tactics of fear and smear, sadly, are increadibly effective. As recently as 3 days ago I spoke to someone who told me “that muslim has no chance…” I once read in a Frank Herbert book a line that struck me as the most telling indictment when applied to our political system. “Divide and conquer. Sub-divide and rule more effetivly. Fracture and rule absolutly.” If this were an actual scale… Care to guess where we are???

It looks like someone is trying a little sensationalism to get some more attention for the middle column. That GOPUSA site took a long time to open, so they must be getting a lot of hits. I found it interesting that they refer to Palin as a pit bull with lipstick, when someone here was recently referring to her a Cheney with lipstick. Evidently, the Rpblcns wouldn’t consider it much of an insult.

One interesting thing from the Sunday morning shows, was that there supposedly aren’t enough Rpblcns left willing to work for the US government to staff the next administration, so they have no alternative but to go bi-partisan.

On the “heard it all” list on BHO, that is a list compiled by white people. Some black people have other things to say about him that his supporters don’t want to hear. The Chicago machine references should really be Illinois machine references by now.

On Hussein, it’s his middle name, get over it, it’s getting him votes from Muslim Rpblcns.

On confusion about his upbringing, he was raised in Hawaii by his grandparents, not in the midwest, although you might get that impression from some of his statements. In fact, I thought he was born in Kansas, when he was running for the US Senate here.

I don’t believe the story about his mother being on food stamps. On one of her journeys, she came back to Honolulu circa 1970, and either dumped BHO and his sister off, or more likely, her parents decided to take them away from her as an unfit parent. Both of his parents were basically flakes, and are now deceased, leaving this candidate with serious identity issues, including fantasies of fictionalized versions of his parents lives.

Click your heels together and repeat after me, “there’s no place like home, there’s no place like home”

ohrealy said: “On Hussein, it’s his middle name, get over it, it’s getting him votes from Muslim Rpblcns. “

Had to chuckle on that one. That is truly a minority group.

Muslims are not responding favorably to Obama; they feel slighted by his defense against right wing lies about him being Muslim in his assertions about being Christian, without chastising the Right for making “Muslim” a derogatory term to thrown at Obama.

Those same Muslims however, despite being miffed at Obama for not standing up for Muslims in his defense of his Christian background, would be hard pressed to support the Right which is making ‘Muslim’ a dirty word in this campaign.

The Right yet again demonstrates its rejection of tolerance for other religions. First Romney, then attacking a person as Muslim due to their middle name. Really doesn’t set well with a majority of Muslim Americans according to an Islamic American spokesperson speaking on C-Span, I think it was.

I think Muslins need to earn the respect and trust of the rest of America. I’m waiting on muslin groups to stand in unison and denounce terrorists and radicals. The only voice I hear from Muslins are on the tapes we receive from the terrorists.

Oldguy, close. It’s actually, ‘Everyone on the Right, click your heels together and repeat after McCain, “Heil GOPUSA, Heil GOPUSA, Heil GOPUSA”.

Ohrealy is spreading more Nazi-like propaganda with: “On one of her journeys, she came back to Honolulu circa 1970, and either dumped BHO and his sister off, or more likely, her parents decided to take them away from her as an unfit parent.”

You apparently wish it were true by touting it here! Care to back any of this up with actual evidence of anykind whatsoever aside from your imagination? Thought not. Aspiring for Goebbel’s job in the USA, ohrealy? You are not qualified.

The art of Goebbels was using a thread of truth to spin enormous deceptions. Your fabrication has no thread of truth that I can see. But, keep reading GOPUSA, your commentary might qualify as protoge’ material of Goebbels one day.

David Remer: Could not agree with you more. And it seems like the Rovian “tell a big lie often enough and everyone will believe it” approach has really kicked in since the republican convention. It’s as if McCain’s machine has decided that throwing dookie is the only way they can win again.

We should forget the issues, according to McCain. Instead, he nominates a running mate guaranteed to polarize and distract voters from problems like the economy, immigration, and Iraq. Mr. Straight-Talk can’t bring in the votes on the strength of his positions alone, so he’s resorting to swift-boating.

I’ve lost the last iota of respect I ever had for the guy in the past 10 days. McCain has me convinced now that he will compromise everything he used to stand for, and pander to whomover he must to win.

To paraphrase The Who: Meet the new republican boss - same as the old boss.

ohrealy -

If you can’t back up a claim, then don’t make that claim. If you can’t back it up, then you’re nothing more than a malicious gossip.

You’re claiming Obama’s mother either ‘dumped’ him off or his grandparents took him from her. Y’know, I’ve known quite a few parents who let the kids live with the grandparents (or uncles/aunts, older siblings, etc.) if they are in a better situation or location than the parents. I’ve taken in nephews earlier this very year for the same reason. In other words, it’s a decision made by the parents in the best interest of the child.

You tried to spread a vicious rumor with NO proof to back it up…and you got caught.

But I forget myself - the truth is only expected of the OPPONENTS of conservatives, and not of conservatives themselves….

Oldguy,

I’m Muslim, my family’s Muslim, Russian Muslims on my mom’s side and Syrian on my dad’s side, we’re mixed with Shi’ite, Syrian Alewi and Sunni all through the family.

Every single person in my family thinks especially Al-Queda and Osama’s followers are just uneducated people and overblown out of proportion, for whatever reason, for the power they apparently have. They don’t, here’s news to you coming from my family,the city in Russia I grew up in, and me, all Muslims:

Muslims in a vast majority, hate, hate, hate Al Queda and fundamentalists. Why?

Because they do exactly what the Q’uran(Koran) says NOT to do, which is proclaiming Jihads in the name of Islam and attack non-Islam related things. The whole point of a Jihad is a personal journey, much like Christian pilgramage to a holy site or fasting at Lent, etc. It’s just a religious practice, and it’s been distorted by them to something that the world sees as terrorism.

DRRemer, you seem to be spinning around in circles on whether or not BHO will get Muslim votes. There are plenty of Muslims here, mostly from Pakistan, with smaller numbers from a variety of other places. There is a mosque less than a mile from here, and a Muslim School located in a former public school, a little farther away. They are very nice and interesting people, many of whom are at odds with their own religious upbringing from the other side of the planet. Their children seem like typical Americans, although better behaved, of course.

And lay off on that N word baloney. Don’t you know any history? They got most of their worst ideas from Americans, part of a tradition going back to Albert Pike and N B Forrest, not the other way around.

Contrarian, those are the facts of BHO’s biography. I just didn’t say them as politely as his biographers. People in Chicago have had a lot worse things to say about him. (overeducated fool, a young whippersnapper, a pretender, a cheat, etc.) In Springfield, he was considered to be arrogant and condescending snob, another less polite version of his bio.

The Rpblcns are hoping this “heard it all” list will do the trick, so they don’t have to get into the real dirt. It probably will, as he has been trending consistently downward since bittergate, when the mask was lifted.

I don’t get your “conservative” references since I don’t happen to be one. BHO’s supporters write the most offensive garbage about anyone they feel like trashing, or anyone who doesn’t support him, but don’t like it when the tables are turned.

Why is this word “Rovian” being used so often? You’re making the guy into more than he ever was. It wouldn’t take much to be Bush’s brain.

David:

This doesn’t upset me duly, despite my passion for liberal politics. The reason is because these people are preaching to the converted - conservative splinter groups won’t ever break into the mainstream, in the same way that those bearded weirdos in Montana cabins will never get their illogical rants in front of the public at large.

What scares me a lot more, is that Wal-Mart has been calling mandatory meetings for its managers during which it very carefully, and just about legally, implies strongly that should Obama get in there will be great damage to the company. That kind of propaganda - telling people of both political persuasions that they should be voting a certain way - that’s terrifying. It’s not far from there to vetting promotions based on voting records, is it?

Jon R

“That kind of propaganda - telling people of both political persuasions that they should be voting a certain way - that’s terrifying.”

I was a union employee for almost 40 years and they always told us how to vote. They still do, all of the unions, and they were doing it long before I joined. So I wouldn’t get to terrified.

“Are you sure he didnt say he got his democratic opponent in the primary removed from the ballot Duane-O, becuase the facts are he did run against a repub in the election. In fact wasnt it the conservative Keyes that he beat for the seat?”

The Illinois State Senate, not the U.S. Senate. He challenged all the signatures on technicalities like wrong size paper and wrong color ink. Now he’s bullying free speech off the air by threatening to sue any station that shows the Ayers ad. Just who is the Nazi here?

What goes round, comes round. Factcheck is debunking propaganda about Palin:

Palin has not pushed for teaching creationism in Alaska’s schools. She has said that students should be allowed to “debate both sides” of the evolution question, but she also said creationism “doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

Does anybody have anything from the Obama campaign or supporters that come close to this level of misinformation and misrepresentation of the facts?

You should read the childlike utterings and piles of steaming pooh I get in my e-mail from the likes of Moveon.org and Codepink.

And when it comes to the Swift Boat vets (dozens of decorated and honorable veterans), just because you didn’t like what they had to say, doesn’t make them “liars”. I remember watching the clips where Kerry animatedly telling us how he was off fighting the Red Khmer in Cambodia during Christmas. I even dedicated the Dead Kennedy’s song “Holiday in Cambodia” to him because of it. Of course it was all a bunch of baloney. Kerry was never anywhere near Cambodia and certainly wasn’t trading potshots with anyone in the vicinity. Much of Kerry’s war record was as truthful as Hillary’s harrowing experience dodging snipers on a Bosnian tarmac…

Anyone who is quick to somehow tie the GOP into “nazi like” comparisons should actually read some books about the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich before they try to graft such poorly thought out historical references onto modern day American politics. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer would be a good start followed by about a dozen more before any more ugly and incorrect slime of that type is thrown about.

The ideology that is attempting to enact socialistic and totalitarian (and dare I even use the word fascist) control over the minds and daily lives of the American people and business is not found on the ‘right’ side of the political spectrum.
The “thought police” and those enforcing the concept of such fine, upstanding political philosophies as Political Correctness are not members of the GOP. We just want to kill a few jihadists, keep our guns, remind everyone that “illegal” means illegal (as in illegal aliens) and not give any more of our hard earned money to a massively over bloated federal government. Oh yeah, and we don’t want govt. bureaucrats telling us what we can drive or if I can use air conditioning or not. Socialism sucks, and we want nothing to do with it. We’d much rather have a gun toting Alaska beauty queen with small town values in the veep slot than a celebrity socialist in the white house.

Jon R, this is just one more example of the lawless nation we are becoming as a result of our leaders demonstrating again and again a contempt for laws that interfere with their personal objectives.

It is truly alarming. McCain had every intention of violating his own McCain Feingold law until the it became apparent that his election could be torpedoed by public opinion if he went through with it. McCain’s Keating 5 role stands as another example and probably lesson upon which McCain drew to decide NOT to cross the line on his own law.

Of course, part of the problem is the host of really BAD laws that policy makers have put on the books, unenforceable laws that breed additional lawbreaking and contempt for the law like marijuana use or possession, or abortion which never could be enforced when it was illegal, creating back alley and slum cottage industries in abortions.

Talk about government intrusion into our personal lives, Republicans are as enormous hypocrites on this issue as Democrats, if not more so. Democrats intrude by taxing us to pay for their spending on our behalf. Republicans try to tell us what we can put in our very bodies, when and how we are permitted to die, and whether or not we could/should become mothers.

Political free speech was intended to voice one’s own opinions, not force one’s opinions upon others under threat of fines or incarceration. And laws that attempt to legislate morality, have always failed throughout the entire history of our species, in all nations, and all governments, including Nazi Germany, which had the absolute most iron fisted and comprehensive law enforcement and spy network of citizens, police and military in the history of civilization. It could not stop incredible heroes like Schindler.

Why is it Republicans can’t seem to learn the lessons of history? Abraham Lincoln understood the true nature of propaganda, “You can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but, you can’t fool all the people all of the time.” Meaning, there will be a price to pay for trying, and a bigger price to pay for succeeding, eventually.

They just don’t get it. Their leaders drop like flies for wrong doing, failures, and breaches of law and ethics, but their model for selecting these leaders never seems to change, with the exception of Dwight D. Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan, who were the only true Republican Presidents since WWII with integrity and endeavored toward high ethical and legal standards.

John McCain is no Eisenhower or Reagan. His entire life save for his last years in Viet Nam, evidence this in oh so many ways.

Obama was no angel in his youth either. But, in young adulthood, the last two years of his BA college, he abandoned his contempt for rules and laws, and realized his future lie in observing them or changing them if they were unjust. McCain went on breaking them for the rest of his adulthood and is now breaking the rules with lies and distortions of his campaign opponent and sanctioning character assassination and propaganda in order to get what he wants.

The difference may be degrees, but, a great many degrees separate these two candidates on their respect for the laws and ethical rules of our civilization. Obama continues to critique McCain on the policies and issues and defend against the lies and distortions. McCain, with each passing day fades the memory of his promise to run an above board and clean campaign.

One man has confidence in the American people and voters, the other has confidence in his ability to bend the rules in order to achieve his personal goals. The difference is a chasm.

David M.,

You just pointed out exactly what is wrong with America, the apathy self-concerned attitude of me first, country second. First government bureaucrats are not telling you what to drive, there’s plenty of people driving around Humvees and I have a friend whose car violates environmental laws set back in the 70’s, does that stop him?

No. But then what happened to America setting the standard for the world economically, militarily,socially and ecologically. So it’s not ok to get a cleaner car but it is to let Europeans breathe cleaner air than us?

Socialism sucks, social democracy does not, and don’t bundle one with the other. It might seem patriotic to those delegates and people in “small towns” to get a beauty queen as VP and a vet as Pres. but try saying the exact same stuff you’ve just said after living a year in or near Philly or LA.

I’d rather have a black guy who went to Harvard, was a civil rights attorney, state senator, and US senator than a senile warmonger and a political puppet in the white house.

“The Illinois State Senate, not the U.S. Senate.”

Right but it was the democratic primary not the general election where the other candidates were disqualified due to lack of actual signatures. Are you saying falsified petitions are acceptable to you Duane-O? People setting around tables forging signatures is ok?

“Now he’s bullying free speech off the air by threatening to sue any station that shows the Ayers ad. Just who is the Nazi here?”

Whoever produced the propaganda that is the misleading Ayers add Duane-O. The dissemination of disinformation is not free speech unless your Goebbels. Wouldn’t you prefer your party to win the election on issues and their record Duane-O or is propaganda acceptable as free speech for you?

“You should read the childlike utterings and piles of steaming pooh I get in my e-mail from the likes of Moveon.org and Codepink.”

While you might not agree with them evidently they don’t rise to the level of disinformation spewed by GOPUSA, right David? Of course if they did rise to this level you could actually produce one as an example instead of just the vague statement that implies they do, right?

Jon -

Good to see a follower of Islam on Watchblog. I am Christian (and not affiliated in any way with the Catholic or protestant churches), but I did quite a bit of research for a book and found that, just like you posted, the vast majority of the Muslim world knows that terrorism, murder, and forced conversion are strictly against the Koran (but Sharia law, while supported by Hadiths and Sunna, also violates some strictures in the Koran, too).

In fact, if one adds up the numbers, the religion that has taken more lives in the name of God than any other is…mainstream ‘Christianity’. A lot of people won’t like to hear that, but that is the historical fact.

The sad part is that the Republicans are painting all the Islamic world as supporting the terrorists, and the McCain’s pick for VP, Sarah Palin, stated she believes the war in Iraq is God’s will.

But terrorists are not the greatest threat to America. The greatest threat is a government that ignores the Constitution, tries to spread democracy by force, and hides its crimes behind twin cloaks of patriotism and religion.

Glen,
While I agree that the greater threat is the use of patriotism to spread facism, I think the greatest current threat lies in the complete lack of moral consequence for fiscal irresponsibility. The recent bailouts should have moral consequence to those responsible (i.e. Congress and POTUS)

In particular the financial oversite wings of Congress. Recall electtions and impeachment should be the order of the day, as well as restituion of their salaries and retirement benefits. While this may not be unduly harsh on the millionaires, it will send a signal to these scoundrels.

IMO, the best thing about WatchBlog is that it provides a forum in which the liberals and conservatives give convincing evidence that the politicians of both parties are corrupt and totally undeserving of governing this country. Although there are a few good apples in each barrel, it still doesn’t change the fact that we have two barrels of rotten apples.

jlw is that due to the fact that both parties are bought by corporate and special interests? It seems the repubs, due to being in power the past 2 decades have more spolied apples and are spolied to a larger degree. As evidence I offer the republican ticket of McCain/Palin now running on reform and change from their own party.

How spolied do you have to be to do that?

googlumpugus,What an excellent idea, perhaps a class action civil suit by taxpayers against the 107th, 108th and 109th Congress and the Bush Administration is in order.

Have the Republicans been lying right and left and spreading every nasty rumor under the sun about the Democratic VP? Nope. Who are the Nazis here.

Liam -

The Republicans haven’t been lying?

“Obama’s a Muslim!”
“Obama doesn’t wear a flag pin!”
“Obama doesn’t salute the flag!”
“Obama will raise taxes for EVERYBODY!”
“Obama supports the cruelest forms of abortion!”
“Obama’s mother abandoned him!”
“Obama’s wife is power-hungry!”

And then there was, in times past:

“Hillary’s the antichrist!”
“Biden’s a plagarist!”
“Chelsea’s the love child of Hillary and Janet Reno!” (sorry - not a rumor, but a joke put out by McCain)
“The name of the new White House dog is Chelsea!” (from Limbaugh)
“Anyone who votes for Kerry can’t be saved - they’re bound for eternal damnation!”

…and of course, who could question the veracity of the SwiftBoaters after they continued their quest to bring John Kerry to justice even after they’d derailed his presidential campaign. If they hadn’t done that, we could have concluded that they were just a group of shameless right-wing idealogues willing to defame an honorable veteran’s war record and justify it as the means to their desired political end.

j2t2 :

Wouldn’t you prefer your party to win the election on issues and their record Duane-O or is propaganda acceptable as free speech for you?

Isn’t the answer to that more than obvious??

The Republicans haven’t been lying?

Have you been paying any attention to the smear campaign against Palin? It’s atrocious. It’s funny to watch the Left attempt to rip the splinters from the eye of the Right while completely ignoring the massive logs in the eye of the Left. I’ve been an activist in politics for twenty years and the viciousness and hatefulness of the far Left never ceases to amaze me.

Oh, and here’s the answers to your “lies”.

“Obama’s a Muslim!” (raised as one as a child, lost and wandering as a teen, converted to black liberation theology as an adult)
“Obama doesn’t wear a flag pin!” (he didn’t and maligned those who did, then he did)
“Obama doesn’t salute the flag!” (I hadn’t heard this one, has anyone seen him do it? That would answer that question easily)
“Obama will raise taxes for EVERYBODY!” (he will, you watch, OK, maybe not the poor but the middle class had better hide their wallets)
“Obama supports the cruelest forms of abortion!” (absolutely, all forms of late term abortion and opposed any attempts to save the life of an aborted baby that’s born alive, that’s public record)
“Obama’s mother abandoned him!” (abandoned is a bit strong of a word to use, but yes she was remarkably flighty, grandparents raised him for many years)
“Obama’s wife is power-hungry!” (She want to be the next Hillary)

And then there was, in times past:

“Hillary’s the antichrist!” (Nope, but she does make you wonder a bit sometimes)
“Biden’s a plagiarist!” (True, everyone agrees on that one, it destroyed his first attempt at running for president)
“Chelsea’s the love child of Hillary and Janet Reno!” (sorry - not a rumor, but a joke put out by McCain) (maybe Hubble?)
“The name of the new White House dog is Chelsea!” (from Limbaugh) (poor attempt at humor)
“Anyone who votes for Kerry can’t be saved - they’re bound for eternal damnation!” (Haven’t heard that one either, sounds like words being put into the mouths of us poor mislead GOPer’s)

David R.,

Did you “click here” to receive your free copy of The Case Against Barack Obama. It sounds like an interesting book.

David H. your link isn’t hot.

Not being a Republican, I don’t view any candidate as King or perfect. I do take what they say they will do, and their history and see if there is an evolution there that is consistent toward public service or self service predominantly.

I also take candidates at their word, until their own words don’t appear to make sense with either their record or their other words. In my opinion, Obama is the better of the two candidates for what our nation needs at this juncture, a strengthening of the middle class consumers who account for 60% of GDP, instead of a strengthening of the top 5% of the wealthiest, and a candidate who doesn’t lose his temper and is capable of organization and consistency of approach, especially in the are of foreign policy and working with the leaders of other nations.

Our $53 Trillion dollar unfunded national federal debt (current internal and external debt plus unfunded legislated mandates), requires someone willing to both cut unnecessary spending and raise taxes on those who can remain wealthy with their taxes raised, to help reduce the current level of over $450 billion in annual deficit spending. We paid over 1/3 of trillion dollars in interest on that debt last year, and more than half of that went to foreign lenders, not Americans to circulate in our economy.

It has to stop. I can’t vote for a candidate who just doesn’t believe in taxes as the way to pay for government spending. McCain is rich, but, I don’t see him volunteering make up the short fall out of Cindy’s pocket, so, I have to vote for the candidate who will raise taxes in order to prevent the country bankrupting when my daughter is in the work force.

It is really a very simple choice for me. Obama will make mistakes. All presidents do. Obama will have a learning curve to deal with, all presidents do. Obama will not have as much gridlock in dealing with our nations with Congress as McCain will.

McCain has lobbyists running his campaign. It doesn’t jive with with his campaign speeches. McCain talks about experience, but, selects a VP candidate whose experience you would decimate if they were Democrat.

McCain talks alternative energy but has voted against it in the Senate. McCain talks alternative energy and oil independence but picks a VP choice whose entire experience as governor has been paid for by fossil fuel and whose state’s budget is paid for by fossil fuels. McCain talks of global warming as contributed to by human activity and fossil fuel emissions, but, selects a VP candidate who is on record as promoting ever more fossil fuel dependency and production.

Sorry. If you want to talk military experience, McCain has it, Obama doesn’t. But, our nation is not run by the military, it was designed to be run by civilian authority. So that for me, is a non-issue.

If you want to say McCain has more experience in federal government, I would agree with you. And that justifies Obama’s selection of Biden whom Obama can and will work close with for that experience. If you want to argue experience in the Congress is a bad thing due to years of exposure to the status quo in D.C., I would argue that is a real danger, and McCain fits that mold.

What you can’t get me to accept is a double standard. McCain attacking Obama on experience and doing an about face and picking Palin with even less time in elected office, doesn’t cut it. McCain voting with GW Bush 90% of the time and then calling himself the change agent, simply does not compute.

I respect your choice of candidates because I respect the democratic process. The people will decide on Nov. 4 and hopefully, we will find with the passage of a few years that the best candidate available won. Your own party has disowned its candidate choice in 2000 and 2004, so your Party’s choices do not exactly inspire confidence as far as I am concerned.

Of course, Democrats weren’t given the boot from Congress in 1994 without just cause either. That is why I am an independent voter, capable and willing to vote for which ever candidate, regardless of party, will best protect my daughter’s future in this wonderful nation of promise called America.

Yukon -

The moderator of this site is IMO a fair man, and while you’ve just posted your side of the story, I suspect the reason your posts were deleted was due to a violation of the rules. Follow the rules, and I’m sure your posts will stick. Refrain from profanity and personal attacks. Critique the message, not the messenger - no matter what you may think of that messenger (or how richly he deserves a shot across the bow).

Yukon Jake was banned long ago, and continues to get back on the site with various IP addresses, and continues to violate our primary rule. His comments will simply be junked.

Swift Boating the truth is not propaganda.

Besides, doesn’t anyone know of Godwin’s Law?

If you invoke the Nazis, you already have lost the debate.

Doing that is fear mongering propaganda.

Bill, and saying the world is flat does not make it so. America can never have a successful government if propaganda is the basis for elections. And polls tell us our government is failing miserably according to 4 out 5 Americans.

Democratic elections require the people having facts and faithful representation of what is happening and what is being said by the candidates. Without that, we will continue to elect GW Bush’s and regret our decisions as Republicans regret Bush by a majority.

You see, it wasn’t propaganda when critics of Bush pointed to his failures as an oilman, as a serviceman, and as governor in a state whose government is largely run by the Lt. Governor, not the Governor. But, Republicans propagandized the truth and facts away, and now the country is worse off, and Republicans try to avoid even the mention of Bush’s name at their convention.

All the products of propaganda. It destroyed Germany and it is undermining these United States. But, defend it or embrace it if you will. Just don’t try to pretend it is the patriotic and right thing to do.

David,
I do not think you believe that only Republicans distort the truth. Democrats also have a long history of distorting and exaggerating points to get elected. If I am wrong about your beliefs, then sorry, I thought you had common sense and integrity. Using Hitler in this context is a distortion and the lowest level of political debate.

Senator : McCain ” WILL ” become the next
President, and you can take that to the
” BANK “!

The Un or In -” Experience ” has no chance
in this Election, let them call the G.O.P.
whatever they wish L.I.B.E.R.A.L.I.S.M. will
be ” Deafeated “!………………………

Tom Besly, perhaps a remedial reading course is in order? Nowhere is Hitler mentioned in my entire article. Are you attempting to provide safe haven for those who would act like Nazis by shielding them from critics who might point out the parallels?

j.i.m., McCain may win. Obama may win. That is the difference between the rational assessment and yours.