Third Party & Independents Archives

When I first read about this, I had to check to make sure it wasn’t an Onion article. Pathetic.

David,

You have it all wrong…Cheney/Bush has a much more efficient illegals plan than the one you’ve mentioned. The Cheney/Bush plan is to bring the economy of the United States so low the illegals will all stay home.

What a farce. $41,000 to deport 2 illegals? That’s $20,500 per person. I can get the job done for a hell of a lot less. But what more ya want from politicians.

Neither party wants to do anything about the illegals. The Republicans want the cheap labor and the Democrats want the potential votes.

Y’know, I remember hearing a neo-con friend of mine (yes, he’s a friend) claim with utter sincerity that if we deport all the illegal aliens, that this would solve our budget deficit.

The Republicans seem to be absolutely sure that illegal aliens (in concert with liberals and Democrats, of course) are the cause of all the world’s ills. Name it, we caused it! We caused Al-Qaeda! We caused the deficit! We caused global warming which doesn’t exist anyway! We caused Britney Spears, traffic gridlock, the Great Depression, bell-bottom jeans, the designated-hitter rule, warts, and dryer lint (but NOT belly-button lint - that was from Orson Welles)!

FEAR US, for we are liberals, Democrats, and illegal aliens, and we’re here to outlaw church, burn your flags, take your guns away, and force your sons and daughters into interracial gay marriages!

*sigh*

I have to wonder just how many neo-con wannabes are going to take the above tirade seriously rather than as the sarcasm it obviously is….

“We have nothing to fear but fear itself.” That was during FDR’s first inaugural address, and a decade before WWII…but truer words were never said.

Glenn C., fear aside, illegal immigration is a real and costly problem for Americans. And problems require solutions.

Don’t seem to be seeing any in your comment.

David,

We are beating a dead horse…been over this ground before. We cannot solve the illegals problem by deporting them. The answer is too simple for our government to see…PUNISH THE EMPLOYERS! The only reason illegals come north is because it pays them to come. STOP the pay.

My suggestion is to fine every employer ten percent more than they realize in increased profits. When it no longer pays dividends to hire illegals, they will no longer be hired.

Marysdude,

While I agree with you, the problem is bigger than that. Even if we jail all the employers, they’ll still be illegals escaping the grinding poverty of Mexico and Central America. While I don’t think a wall is anything but a boondoggle, we have to start thinking bigger than just keeping them out.

Political stability and corruption, along with illiteracy are the true plagues of Mexico.

Whether anyone likes it or not Mexicans are going to continue to migrate north until that is relieved. People of Mexican descent are going to be the majority population soon. The politics on this is going to have to change.

Marysdude
For one I agree with ya. We do need to be fining employers that knowingly hire illegals. We also need to by jailing them. And they should also face the possibility of losing their business.
It could go something like this.
1st offense - 25% of gross profit for each year illegal were employed plus $2,500 per illegal employed.- 6 months in jail.
2nd offence - 50% of gross profit for each year illegals were employed plus $5,000 per illegal employed. - 1 year in jail.
3rd offence - 75% of gross profit or each year illegals were employed plus $7,500 per illegal employed. - 2 years in prison.
4th offence - 100% of gross profit for each year illegals were employed plus $10,000 per illegal employed. - 5 years in prison - forfeiture of business.
How many employers ya think would be willing to risk penalties like that to make a few extra bucks?
How many share holders would be up in arms after the first time around?
While deportation won’t solve the whole problem, I do believe that when illegals are caught they need to be deported.
But again, The Republicans want the cheap labor. The Democrats want the potential votes. So don’t look for either party to get though on illegal immigration.

goo said: “While I don’t think a wall is anything but a boondoggle, we have to start thinking bigger than just keeping them out. “

The border barrier was never going to halt all illegal immigration. But, there is absolutely no doubt anymore, that it does impede and slow the rate of inflow by vast majority percentages. As the barrier continues to be erected along with other technologies and interdiction manpower, the evidence grows and grows toward the inevitable result that the barrier will prevent 90% of the illegal immigration that came across with open borders.

If you call that a boondoggle, so be it. Call it what you want. But, the evidence can’t be denied by a rational mind. Simply put, it is monumentally easier to catch 10 mice set free in a room, than 100. And the border barrier is largely a one time non recurring cost, whereas, all other methods of deterring illegal immigration require ongoing high manpower costs and government service costs.

To me, its a boondoggle that makes incredible good common cents, and taxpayer dollars.

Marysdude. Sorry, but employment is NOT the only motivation for illegal immigration. It is the main reason, but not sole. Many seek dual citizenship for their children being born here, giving them an insurance policy in the child’s future to choose the best country to live in for themselves in 20 years. The majority come here not for employment, but to live with relatives who are employed here. Many of these are not employed but receive taxpayer dollar government services.

It is a fact that only slightly more than 1/3 of illegal immigrants are breadwinners. No one knows the exact figures for obvious reasons, but, a large minority of illegal immigrants are employed by an illegal and underground market in the U.S. in industries ranging from internet scams, tax dodging cash only businesses, illegal drugs, and of course, human trafficking and prostitution of various kinds.

Ending legal employment for illegal immigrants is not the panacea some believe. Those intent on employment, will be forced to employment in the underground economy if legal employment is not available.

Hence, the need to stem the flow at the border in addition to other measures such as prosecuting willing employers of illegal immigrants.

David thanks for the information on the Bush voluntary deportaion inititive. I heard this real briefly on the news a few days ago and couldnt believe it was true. But I guess if you dont try you cant fail.

As you know David there is not just 1 answer to this issue. We need to start at NAFTA, make it fair for us and them and go from there. You cant hardly blame people for not voluntarily returning to poverty.

Those that are coming into this country illegally and become criminals need to be put into the court system and we need to sue the mexican government for the costs of incarceration etc. should they be found guilty.

For us to think that this is a one sided issue just strikes me as crazy. The Mexican govermnment helps people leave the country knowing they are coming her illegally. That by all rights should cost them.

Those that are criminals that enter this country illegally need to be returned to their country of origin to serve there sentence after working off the costs of the border patrol required to capture and detain them. Those whose crime is coming here illegally needs to be deported back to their own country. Let them fill out the necessary paperwork to become legal but put them in line behind those that did it right.

We need to slow the flow of illegals into this country thru the fences, border patrol and armed services if necessary. Afterall what are the armed services for if not to protect our borders from invasion. I think we need to do this in a humane way but we still need to do it.

Those that hire people in this country illegally need to pay the true costs of having them in this country illegally. D.a.n.’s site had a figure of $370 billion at one time but that included suppressed wages due to the influx of illegals. While that may be debatable the costs of medical care, courts and jails, social servics arent and should be paid for by those receiving the illegal help.

We also need a visa program so that Mexican citzens can enter the country legally and work seasonally as needed by farmers as they have been doing for many years. Of course we should also have a entry program for those that want to become American citizens like we do now only faster and with english language requirements.

Perhaps we should also consider a certain amount of those here illegally for training on the skills necesary to affect positive political and economic change in their country so their fellow citizens can make a living without resorting to becoming drug and/or human smugglers.

If we cant secure our borders why have a DHS and all the other restrictions put in place since 9/11?

David -

You’re right, I ranted but didn’t offer any solutions. More than anything, I was complaining - whining, really - about how conservatives seem to blame liberals for everything under the sun (and of course we don’t do the same thing in reverse. Really, we don’t! Honest!)

We should NOT just ‘deport on sight’, for there have been many cases of American citizens being deported…and it’s not unusual that parents are being deported and leaving a child behind without his or her parents. And if we punish the businesses, it hurts the economy - if (with L&I and taxes and Social Security) we pay enough for Americans to work the farms, we can’t compete with the prices from outside the country…which means we impose tariffs or our farmers go broke.

Solutions? (1) Build a wall…never mind what Pink Floyd and Berliners think. That, and (2) end the tradition wherein any child born on American soil is automatically a citizen. If the parents are both illegal immigrants, then the child cannot be a citizen.

While (2) is repugnant to me, it would help discourage many from coming here in the hope that they could bear a child on American soil.

j2t2 said: “As you know David there is not just 1 answer to this issue. We need to start at NAFTA, make it fair for us and them and go from there. You cant hardly blame people for not voluntarily returning to poverty.”

Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. I blame my government for the illegal immigrant population here, not the illegal immigrants. Give hungry people an open door to a food bank, and they will eat.

I agree that America should do what it can to raise the living standards in other nations, but, and it is a BIG BUT, our government’s first responsibility is to its own nationals and taxpayers supporting those in the government.

America can no longer afford to run enormous debt and deficits for the sake of foreign nationals. My daughter’s future in America is under direct threat of having less opportunity, less freedom, less services per tax dollar, than her Mom and Dad experienced in our lifetimes. That is antithetical to the American dream. That is job 1 for America.

Illegal Immigration is only adding to the drain on America’s future needed resources to shore up quality of life and maintain it at least equal to the previous generations. America cannot possibly take in all the world’s poor and sick and oppressed without creating poverty, sickness, and oppression here for American citizens and taxpayers. There is no escaping that real world fact.

We must close our borders until such time as we have restored the contract with the next generation of legal Americans that their quality of life will not be diminished and lesser than what Americans live now. Having done that, I have no qualms or difficulties granting citizenship pathways for illegal immigrants already here who have established legal, and productive vocations and lifestyles here in the U.S.

But NOT until we have stopped the flow. The flow is the motive to increase the flow of illegal immigration. It has to stop.

It is insane to consider immigration as a fungible rectification of imbalances like the price of oil. Sovereignty protects the assets, quality of life, and security of the citizens within a sovereign nation. That sovereignty should never have been abrogated as it has been by the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush Jr. Administrations and corresponding Congresses.

The time has come to force our government to reinstall the Constitutional mandate to defend and protect the sovereignty of these United States. That force must come in the form of throwing the incumbents responsible for this abrogation out of office.

Biden is leaving the Senate. That’s one down, a couple hundred to go. Onward!

Glenn, you offer very tough solutions. Which is vastly better than what our government is willing to proffer. I commend your offer.

One of America’s mandates is fair and equal justice for Americans. Enforcement of law, contrary to the belief of many on the far right, need not be brutal, nor need it sacrifice other fundamental tents of our American Constitutional system.

Deporting on site, is brutal, and in no way reflects America’s mandate for rule of just law. Deportations should take into account the humanity of the situation and those involved: the concept of informed and equal application of the law, not vigilantism or dispassionate application of the law regardless of what cruelty may follow, follows from our Constitutional framework.

This is precisely what makes this illegal immigration problem so horribly expensive, divisive, and complex. ALL solutions however, which are to be humane, and just, logically begin with stopping further illegal immigration from occurring. Failure to do so, only compounds the cost, inhumanity, and complexity of potential solutions.

Bruce Lee was born here to visiting parents, and later came here as entitled by birth, but he ended up doing better back in Hong Kong. We need immigrants, so our population doesn’t end up looking like the cast of Deliverance, but at some point you have to say enough is enough. About 1920 it was decided to put a cap at 100,000 per year on immigration, when they thought that our population would level off at 140 million. They didn’t keep to that figures, and it was later increased to 200,000, and they never kept to that figure either.

I saw a lady today who, by appearances, looked like an immigrant. She was wearing an American flag t-shirt, and American flag shoes, and even had her toenails painted in red and white stripes. I smiled. What would you say to her? Go back where you came from, you and your kids?

Incidentally, the stars and stripes come from the Washington family coat of arms. . They probably thought he would become king eventually.

ohrealy, you can’t talk about legal immigration and illegal immigration as if they are one and the same thing. They are NOT!

America will always welcome legal immigrants according to our nation’s needs and the need of those oppressed elsewhere, but, again, according to our needs.

Illegal immigration pays no heed to our nation’s needs and in fact, works to subvert our nation’s needs for sovereignty, for population numbers management, and of course, resource management to sustain the desired population numbers.

Not the same thing. It is important to distinguish the two when addressing anecdotes designed to obfuscate these Constitutional, legal, and sovereignty issues.

DRRemer, like I said, enough is enough. We’ve been having this same discussion for 2 years, and nothing has changed except that we get more immigrants, which is clearly the US governnment’s policy. As far as I can tell, by current custom and usage, illegal just means from south of the border, and I think you are heading for some fun times in the next reapportionment in TX.

This week, and every week, I am dealing with Russian coworkers who don’t know what I am saying when I say the day of the week, but they’re legal, right, because we want Russians, Poles, . Chinese and Koreans, from countries with good educational systems, for the rest of this, look at what I said 2 years ago, because like I said, nothing’s changed.

Seems to me the illegals are not the major concern at the moment. Drug violence along both sides of the border is ramping up. What could easily be done is to complete the fence causing the cartel’s to disperse and move elsewhere. Then take some of the billions in drug money that was flowing back to Mexico and initiate some mixed programs to help Mexico develop sustainable resources.
An easy and common sense solution but it doesn’t take care of the oligarchy who demands the cheapest available labor, or demands that the back of the middle class must be permanently broken to support somebody’s theory of globalization. I do believe the Pres. and VP’s nominee’s are major players for the oligarchy so we shouldn’t expect common sense solutions for the next 4 years.

David,

I will be amazed if we ever complete a Mexican border fence. I will be amazed if the fence that is built is maintained in 20 years.

My grandfather built a barn to hold cattle and other livestock at times. It had four walls and a roof and floor. How building a fence on one border, secures our borders is beyond me. How a fence for a country with whom we have a large amount of trade will stop smuggling is hard for me to understand. Perhaps I’ve been to too many ports.

It’s a great symbol. The Iron Curtain and Maginot line were great symbols as well. I think this will follow their lead. I don’t think either were positive symbols.

If it is stopping 90% of the immigrant flow, how can we still have a million illegals entering a year? Why are illegal drug prices essentially the same, if not cheaper than 30 years ago? How would this have stopped 9-11?

Our politics is changing. The politics of the Mexican Wall will change, but it is a boost to the economy of the Valley and other places, for now. It’s gonna be hard for me to look back and see this as anything but a boondogle, and a bit of racism however.

goog -

I don’t think the wall will be built…but as long as life is better in America than in Mexico, we WILL have thousands trying to cross the border illegally every day.

But a wall is the only way you’ll slow down the flow (but you’ll NEVER stop it).

And when it comes to illegal immigration, I remember Ben Cayetano - the governor of Hawaii while I was stationed there. It was only after he was elected that he was the child of illegal immigrants. In fact, my own wife was an illegal immigrant (don’t worry, she was a citizen long before we ever met - heck, she was driving a car here in the U.S. before I was, and she is every bit as American as I).

As you all can imagine, I’ve known a few illegals…and I’ve seen that when one looks at the BIG picture, at the OVERALL illegal population, they are less likely to commit felonies (other than being an alien) than the overall population of LEGAL American citizens. They do NOT contribute as much to America’s problems as the conservatives seem to believe…but that’s a politically INcorrect opinion.

We cannot simply welcome everyone who comes here - it simply wouldn’t work - but neither can we just round up all the illegals and deport them, for such is logistically impossible…and would lead to MORE crime. Why? Because if an illegal immigrant can’t get a job, do you REALLY think he’s going to just leave the country? No. He’s just going to turn to other-than-legal means to feed his family.

It is the toughest of issues, but here’s what I think:

- Secure our borders, ports, and airports as much as possible. This will slow down the flow, but it will never be completely stopped.

- Fingerprint and DNA-sample everyone who enters in the U.S.

- Put in place a program for those illegals who have been good for five years without getting caught so that they can work towards legal citizenship (yes, that’s NOT fair to all those who migrated LEGALLY, but we have to do what is best (and not necessarily fair) for America as a whole). Anyone in the U.S. less than five years may leave the country _without_ prejudice and may migrate legally.

- At the same time, set a specific date, and after that date, no one in the U.S. illegally will be able to become a citizen - ever. Actually, that’s pretty much the present policy, but let’s extend this to their families.

- And, beginning that same date, if a business owner knowingly and willfully employs illegal immigrants, his business is subject to the RICO act and is confiscated…and he goes to jail.

But I’m just whistlin’ in the wind here, because I really don’t think any of this will happen.

When I heard about the Bush Administration self-deportation program, I registered my skepticism by laughing myself silly.

I knew it wasn’t going anywhere.

goo, it will be built. The only question is when? When our numbers in this country have bankrupt our political, natural, and social resources, or before the population grows that large.

Given the record of the last 7.5 years, it will be well after the overpopulation has made paupers of the bulk of the Middle Class. But, hey, I hear change is in the political wind. We shall see.

The American people polled want the damn border barrier. Whoever wins this November is going to have to grapple with the fact that those polling numbers are only going to grow, as conditions worsen over the next 4 years. And many will, regardless of who is President. That is the hand the next President has been dealt. Whether they mitigate it or not, is really what Obama and McCain are debating about, all the BS aside.

ohrealy, I take your point. But, two things have changed. There are now about 600 miles of border barrier where there was none before. And public polling on this issue has turned over in favor of the border barrier.

Those two changes will presage the continuation of the border barrier because Congress persons KNOW they won’t survive a growing tide of public opposition on the issue. As crime and illegal census numbers drop in areas bounded by the border barrier, the public pressure to complete the job will bear down Congressional necks like dead albatross’.

Like I said to googlumpus, the only question is WHEN the border will be completed, before or after our population numbers have squeezed a large portion of the middle class out of that class. The carrying capacity of our current government, social and economic, and natural resources is reaching a limit rapidly.

Water is rapidly becoming the oil of the 21st Century American West. The courts are becoming backlogged with water disputes in the West. A mass exodus from Nevada is coming as this prolonged economic slump advances. California is and 23 other states are running deficits this year despite Constitutional prohibitions against doing so. We long ago left our oil independence behind in history.

And now we are hell bent upon becoming dependent upon foreign food and consumables in similar fashion, not to mention the vastly more frightening prospect of becoming ever more dependent upon foreign lenders to keep our economy afloat and mired in ever increasing debt.

All these and more unsolved problems facing America are beginning to dawn on voters. And that spells political and governmental change if the voters make the full transition from ostrich with head in sand to aware objective information seekers prior to casting their vote. Nothing brings an Ostriches head out of the sand quicker than swift kick in wallet side of their posterior. As this year’s election is providing evidence of.

The polls show a clear majority of American likely voters prefer a Democrat in the White House than a Republican (56% as I recall). Despite the fact that they aren’t yet sold on Obama (dead even with McCain). That poll says Americans are waking up and demanding change from the direction they now realize we are headed in. Too many people, too much demand, and not enough resources for everyone to share the dream in the coming decades.

It won’t be long before those same voters realize that illegal immigration is compounding the problems we face. Then the border barrier will be completed as incumbents get dumped for not yielding to the American people on this and other demands for change.

>Marysdude. Sorry, but employment is NOT the only motivation for illegal immigration.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 25, 2008 06:23 PM

David,

You are right, of course, but it is not of consequence. Although illegals come north for more than one reason, it is by far the problem reason. Without employment, the illegals coming over would be a trickle that could be handled by a miniscule border defense.

Again I say…make it UNprofitable to hire them and they will stay home. I’ll bet it would cost taxpayers less, in the long run, to do it my way than to build fenses or beef up patrols, etc.

Marysdude, your reply continues to ignore the underground economy which would still draw them in the millions. I guess it is difficult for most folks to appreciate the complexity of the situation, but, regulating legal business enterprise hiring of illegals does not change the motivation of those arriving here, nor will it close the growing illegal business hiring opportunities afforded them by our black and underground cash based economies, which no one wants to talk about in polite company, likely because too many of us are engaged in, or know a friend or relative who is engaged in, the underground economy.

There will always be comparative economic and liberty opportunity in America not found by 100’s of millions on their own countries. Changing our society to address that one reality, is like remodeling the entire White House because the new water well shed color doesn’t match.

The security issues of open borders alone are sufficient and absolutely warranted cause for erecting a border barrier. It just happens to be single most effective solution to slowing the pace and raising the hurdles for unknowns entering our nation for a plethora of reasons, not all well intended for Americans.

David,

And also ruining much of the ecology in the border area, and maintenance costs associated with keeping the holes plugged and the tunnels filled…There is already signs of ecological deterioration along the parts that have been built, because there was such a hurry to show progress, no studies were performed. Can you immagine what it will be like after the whole thing is complete?

You can talk all you want about the underground economy, but we both know that the vast majority of illegals come over to pick crops and work in plants like Tyson Foods, etc.

If all we have to worry about are the undergrounders and dopers, it will be fairly easy to control that border traffic.

STOP THE PAYROLLS!

DRRemer, it would be nice if we could have a discussion on water issues, but technical threads never get much traction. Desalination should be a priority. I bet we would have all the water we could ever want in the west if we simply cut the supply from the Colorado river basin to California, and let them figure out how to do without it. Smart people can figure this stuff out.

Many years ago, I spent some summer vacations in a part of Colorado, near Estes Park, in the Big Thompson canyon. There was a dam at the top, taking water from the Colorado river side to the Arkansas basin side. The damn eventually burst, taking the road through the canyon with it. It was never rebuilt, the last I heard. I guess the people on the west side of the divide wouldn’t want any water to go to the east side now.

ohrealy said: “I bet we would have all the water we could ever want in the west if we simply cut the supply from the Colorado river basin to California, and let them figure out how to do without it.”

Now that remark sounds like it was written by anyone in the Bush Administration. To hell with law, contracts, etc., just cut them off and they will find a way.

This is the kind of thinking that is destroying America’s foundation as a Constitutional Democratic Republic governed by the rule and enforcement of one law for all, without exception for status, wealth, color, religion, ethnicity, or gender.

Expedience often appears justified by the needs of the moment, but, just as often erodes the foundations that made a great society or nation great.

Observing and adhering to our Constitutional and legal foundations is something we must do, NOT because it is easy, but, because it is hard, (to paraphrase JFK). Because it is the hardest of tasks in history to keep a great nation great and from being undermined by the pragmatists and expediters who would insist on the shortest and easiest path to what they want.

California has Colorado River water by treaty and law. Cutting the southern half of the most populated state in the Union off from life giving water with the hope that they can devise other cost effective measures of saving life with other water resources, is just about the most inhumane proposal I have heard since the idea of invading Iraq was first publicized.

FYI David,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080826/ap_on_bi_ge/immigration_raid

One of the more interesting things about this is the denial that a crime has been committed by those that benefit from the illegals. Yet quite a few are being charged with obtaining false identification.

I still think the most effective way to get the government to do their job is to have elections for senators and representatives every year.

Marysdude offered, as if there were any free solutions out there: “And also ruining much of the ecology in the border area, and maintenance costs associated with keeping the holes plugged and the tunnels filled”

When you come up with a cost free solution that will be enduring, you let me know. Until then, the Border Barrier is the MOST cost effective enduring solution to repel up to 90% of those entering our country illegally with all of the consequential costs associated with their swelling numbers.

Half hearted manpower intensive efforts to control illegal immigration suffer the same logistical astronomical costs over time as the failed war on drugs. Cumulatively, America would not now have ANY national debt if it had decriminalized illegal drug use and posession back in the 1940’s and saved the money it spent on fighting its own citizens in this drug war.

Take a larger perspective for crying out loud. Of course there will be tunnels, but, 1 million people won’t be coming through that tunnel every year, like they are now across wide open borders.

A border barrier is a one time investment of capital with an ongoing maintenance cost like any other infrastructure in our country like guardrails on road curves, and bridges to keep them from collapsing under taxpayers.

But the maintenance cost for a border barrier will be miniscule to what 20 million illegal immigrants are now costing Americans, taxpayers, and wage earners as a result of wide open borders.

For every one illegal wage earner, this society provides educational, medical, and legal services to 3 who are not paying taxes on wages. America is drowning in debt in case you hadn’t noticed.

And it is long past time for America to begin considering long term costs in its decisions. The cost of wide open borders has cost this nation’s citizens far, far more than has been gained by those profiting on illegal labor or enjoying the gains of nation wide depression of wages over the years as a partial result of illegal immigration.

I am not as concerned about those already here as I am about the 10’s of millions with dreams of coming here. If you think America’s problems are bad now, imagine what they will be when our population hits 400 million later in this century.

Finite resources allocated to infinite demand requires an economic response which calculates the opportunity and long term costs against the short term and long term benefits. There is no economic model out that adheres to logic and mathematical rules of economics which reflects wide open borders as anything other than a net drain on the future resources of America.

And that translates directly into a diminished quality of life for our children through the rest of this century. They will have enough to pay for with the aging baby boom generation and entitlement costs without having to worry about prolonging and extending the boom into the worklives of their great great grandchildren.

We can’t afford to keep up with the infrastructure of our roads, schools, bridges, water resources, nuclear waste, carbon emissions and more with a population of 300 million. There is no way increasing that population to 400 million is going to do anything other than exacerbate these problems of finite resources amidst infinite demand for them.

Take a larger perspective, and become a backer of solutions, rather than continuing to champion making the future worse than we have already made the present.

j2t2, that would require a Constitutional Amendment. We can’t even get Democrats together on a nominee, let alone Republicans and Democrats together on something like annual elections.

Let’s get rid of the Diebold machines first. Then, having fairer and more accountable elections, we can aim higher.

” life giving water with the hope that they can devise other cost effective measures of saving life ” Yes they can, DRRemer, those treaties are just making it easier for them not to do what they can. As for saving life, they are using the water to grow crops unsuitable to a dry climate, fill swimming pools, and flush toilets in the desert, while the rest of the west is being deprived of that water.

We have Sequoia machines here.

Get rid of any voting machine that does not back up varifiable count data…

ohrealy, desalination is an enormously expensive method of obtaining water. Until the water of the Colorado greatly diminishes, or its cost dramatically rises, both of which are possible in the future, Californians are taking the least cost option available to them under law.

Are you opposed to free market contracts that seek the free market price in contract and which obligate parties to that contract to live by the terms of that contract? I am shocked. Shocked, ohrealy.

Are you really alluding to socialized water desalination plants as preferable to free market contract obligations being upheld? Shocking, absolutely shocking.

You could make a great Obama supporter with a little refinement around the edges. :-)

“enormously expensive method of obtaining water”, Then we need to make it cheaper. This is literally the most important issue in the entire world. Individuals and communtities should start up projects, and when they perfect it, sell the water to their inland neighbors.

“Shocked”, Oh thank you, but this place is as honest as the day is long. Before lunch, I was giving talking points to a union rep for the hospital and nursing home workers, on dealing with the Russian employees. The state of Illinois is indirectly breaking their contract with them, and expects them to roll over.

You can’t imagine how much the people here detest our Democratic governor, who is now floating the idea of appointing Tammy Duckworth to fill BHO’s seat if he wins. I took that as meaning that he thinks BHO will lose, since a number of other more experienced people would like that seat, including Rahm Emmanuel and Jan Schakowsky. Duckworth could be viewed as a compromise candidate, to whom no one could object. (She ran unsuccessfully for Henry Hyde’s old seat in DuPage Co, Maine twnshp in Cook was also in that district before the last reapportionment, but I hope not after the next one.)

I am already counting Illinois’ 21 electoral votes for BHO, so we need to look ahead to the future. The Green Party here is making a play for the Latino vote, as a way of building an alternative to the duopoly. I think it makes sense.

ohrealy, making desalination cheaper hinges upon making energy cheaper. Drilling for a diminishing resource like oil is not the answer to cheaper energy for major projects like water desalination.

I think Israel has the largest and most advanced of such facilities. And the energy cost of operating eats a sizable portion of their budget. Such that they are now having to move to total water reclamation including human waste water as a competitively priced addition to desalination.

America is poised to become the world leader in cheap replenishable energy and its major exporter, if ONLY the oil addicts would get out of the way and allow the investments and commitment to alternatives to become job 1.

So, make energy cheaper. I used to quote from a West Wing episode called the Warfare of Genghis Khan, the title refers to nuclear weapons and Iran. They are talking about NASA, and how technology seems to have come to a halt since the Nixon administration, and we haven’t lived up to the promise of the earlier days. All we have is the internet, a more efficient delivery system for gossip and pornography. I’m hoping that something can jumpstart a new era of real advances. We just need to figure out how to make desalination and alternative energy sexy. This is an AP story on the Chevy Volt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJEK04O5eNk

Human waste reclamation sound like something else out of Dune, Reverend Mother.

Ohrealy, may sound like science fiction, but, one Asian nation, The Phillipines or Malaysia if I recall correctly, has already completed such a facility that provides 1/3 of all their drinking water - from brown water.

The program I saw on its construction was truly fascinating. Enormous reverse osmosis facility with the waste water of the entire peninsula channeled to the facility through a system of pipes and pumps. Watching the scientists drink the water on the other end, and the tests demonstrating that it was purer that most water supplies here in the U.S. was memorable.

BTW, Orange County Ca. just climbed on board this brown water to tap water list.

ohrealy -

No, having sufficient drinking water is NOT the most important issue in the world.

The greatest danger facing our world (save an asteroid or comet impact such as Shoemaker-Levy 9) is GLOBAL WARMING.

How bad can it get? The more Earth heats up, the less CO2 can be absorbed, and the more the ice caps melt. The less CO2 is absorbed, the more heat is trapped in Earth’s atmosphere. The more the ice caps melt, the less heat is reflected back into space. The more CO2 is trapped, the more the ice caps melt, the more the Earth heats up. Vicious circle time.

How bad can it get?

Think Venus.

Take away nine-tenths of all drinking water on earth, and there’s still enough for a few million humans to live.

On Venus, no humans can live.

DRRemer, from Colbert during water week: “Dean Kamen has invented a water purifier that makes clean water out of sewage, poison, chemical waste or a 50-gallon drum of urine”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w43PvPEHip0
They can have all the water they need in Cali, so they can grow monsoon crops in the desert.

From Joe Strummer at the end of The Future is Unwritten: “People can change anything they want to, and that means everything in the world. People are running about, following their little tracks, I am one of them, but we’ve all got to stop, just following our own little mouse trail. People can do anything. This is something that I’m beginning to learn. people are out there doing bad things to eachother. it’s because they’re being dehumanized. it’s time to take the humanity back into the center of the ring and follow that for a time. Greed, it ain’t going anywhere. They should have that in a big billboard across Times Square. “Without people, you’re nothing” That’s my spiel.”

Contrarian, you’re being too Glenn. Global warming has positives, as well as negatives. It has been mostly positive here.

ohrealy -

Sorry, but Venus has no positives for humankind.

Do I really think it will get that bad? No, I hope not. Do I really think it CAN get that bad? Almost - and it’s ‘almost’ because we’re a bit further from the sun. However, ‘almost Venus’ is also more than enough to end humanity.

And there’s the point, ohrealy - if there is even a significant possibility of runaway global warming, then pray tell, what can be the sense in denying it if a failure to act on it can bring about such catastrophes?

I mean, we’ll pass a law to wear seat belts because there’s a significant possibility of a traffic mishap…but we won’t do anything about global warming? Good Grief!

Contrarian, I am actually in favor of doing a lot of things about global warming, but as Jack always used to say, like the article in last month’s Wired, it’s all about carbon, and we’re not getting off of it any time soon.

This planet’s ecosystem actually tries to correct the problem, but we’ve created too much of a mess. I’ve said before, we had 30 frost and thaw cycles this winter in Chicago. The ecosystem is trying to do what it normally does, but we’ve just Effed it up too much. There is too much pavement here. I don’t think we’ll be getting less of that any time soon. In small towns in very Rpblcn parts of Florida, no new pavement is allowed at all. Here, they try to plant trees everywhere, even in parking lots, but they only thrive where the environment is more suitable. At my alma mater, they’ve planted so many trees that you can’t even get a picture of a building. Mayor Daley would stick a tree up everyone’s yazoo if he could. It hasn’t helped much yet.