Third Party & Independents Archives

Bush and Company… didn’t they run on accountability? This is so sad that it’s almost funny. On vacation this summer, my Limbaugh conservative family to a person said that they would not vote Republican. Bush, Cheney, and especially the devious Karl Rove have done more to enlighten the American public about the duplicitous Republican Party than I ever could in a thousand reasoned, logical, and fact based arguments.

Justice would require real accountability for Bush, Cheney, Rove, and Company which, in my opinion, should include jail time. But that’s just my liberal viewpoint. These are the people who jumped in with both feet behind the impeachment of Bill Clinton. What a joke.

David,

We’ll see if this a really important issue, or if it is just Congress pandering to the lunatic fringe leftist “The People for the American Way”.

I say lunatic fringe leftist, because all you have to do is go to the link provided and click on the vid in the upper left hand corner and then click on any of the vids on the right hand side. Especially revealing is the vid entitled “The Reasons Why I Signed Up For FOX Attacks!”…which actually should be entitled “How I can make a vid while smoking copious amounts of crack cocaine” or “They’re (Fox) settin’ him (Obama) up and I’m not going to tell you why or give any other explanation, but they’re settin’ him up.”

Look, this might or might not be a valid challenge of the limits of Executive Privilege, but do you think Congress might actually sometime in the near future (before I die and turn to dust) address:

1. Their out-of-control spending
2. Illegal immigration
3. Energy independence
4. Social security
5. Our disgraceful public school system

…all of which need to be addressed before tackling something that could easily be dismissed as partisan political BS (Hey! We can’t impeach Bush, so let’s get Rove!).

Is it any wonder that Congress has a 9% approval rating?

I agree with Jim T. Congress has a lot more important things to do. Talk about wasting tax payer money!!!!!!!!

LibRick, no, it is not just your liberal viewpoint.

This country is failing in so many of functions precisely because we have lost, in part, the concept that the one rule of law applies to ALL equally.

Many in the executive branch of our government have knowingly broken the laws of these United States, up to and including, President Bush. There is no rule of law if politicians and persons in power are exempted from the processes of justice where law breaking occurs.

This contempt for the rule of law from the White House, through the Congress, and even the Supreme Court at times sets the climate and predisposition for observance of the law for the rest of the nation, with the result that American citizens hold in contempt either the lawmakers, or the law itself.

This is not the kind of foundation upon which a nation can long stand without dire and severe consequences, many of which we already witness with our crime rates, highway speeders, tax evasions, and 1 trillion dollar underground black market economy.

Throughout history, an inevitable result of lawlessness, is a growing demand for increased police state. We have witnessed this occurring here for the last 100 years, as the police state grows to compensate for too much liberty, too much freedom, which interest groups find threatening or offensive in some manner. Drug war, gun prohibitions, access to public assembly restrictions, are just a few examples.

Jim T and KAP, just why is it that you can both just brush aside wrongdoing by anyone on the red side of the aisle, yet are ready to hang anyone on the other side for any discretions???
Have you already sent an “attaboy” and “get out of jail free” card to Stevens? Are his deliberate actions just too trivial to deal with? You know, you can’t have it both ways….but of course if we follow Bush’s lead, then Katie bar the door..!!!

janedoe,

If you have read my posts over time, you’ll see how wrong your statement is.

For example, let’s take Ted Stevens. He’s accused of accepting “favors” (home improvements, etc.) from the oil companies. If that’s true…AXE his ass! If it’s not true…I expect someone to have the balls to stand up and say so.

The thrust of my statement above is that Executive Privilege is far down on my “to-do” list of things Congress needs to do TODAY. Just like in an executive job, your “to-do” list should have the most important things to do on the top and the less important things further down.

Executive Privilege is important…don’t get me wrong. But I believe with everything else going to hell in a handbasket, there are more important things that Congress needs to get up off their collective “do-nothing” and get done. In my post above, this is only a partial list of things that Congress has patently FAILED to do and needs to address TODAY.

All I am saying is that at this particular time with all the pressing issues out there, this looks more like partisan party politics and spoiled milk.

Jim T

I know you can be a reasonable man when you want. I see this take on Rove as one of thee most important issues out there. If he is able to successfully escape unscathed this contempt of congress hearing he will essentially set the stage for an executive branch that no longer can be held accountable. In essence our executive branch would now be the equivalent of a dictatorship answerable to no one. Can you not see the serious implications and possibilities of such an outcome. It would mean that we the people would have no avenue of holding our executive accountable short of revolution if a situation should dictate that need. This executive branch is in essence declaring themselves immune to law and daring congress to attempt to hold them accountable. Where will that leave us as a supposedly democratic nation of laws and rights if one branch of people can no longer be held accountable for their actions?

I am not ignoring the importance of the issues you bring up. How effective can we be at addressing those issues if our highest branch of government has the power to simply ignore them if they so wish. They would have the power to set their own agenda at will and simply deny us our wants without fear of reprisal. Though I do not think highly of Bush and his people my thoughts on this matter are sincere and have only the best intentions. This is imo the most important rights issue facing us as a free nation today. There can not in our society be any class of people that is considered above the law.

janedoe
I think all of congress should be held in contempt for not doing the jobs they were elected to, and that goes from the president on down. If that’s red your color blind. Neither side has done their job. Rove is not going to tell congress anything that they don’t know already. IMO all this is, is grandstanding before the November elections.

Bush and Rove enjoy breaking the law and getting away with it. There’s nothing really new here. They clearly don’t even believe in our form of government. On Stevens, I can’t help but think that the Rpblcns must have someone else in mind for his seat, for this to happen at this particular time. Pelosi has been mostly disappointing, and Reid blames everything on Lieberman’s fence sitting.

KAP and Jim T., much of what Congress has NOT done has been in deference to the Senate where it is impossible to get any initiatives coming from the House to pass, due to the Republican filibuster.

Hopefully that will change in January. I believe Democrats NEED Republicans as a check and balance. But, the way the Republicans have deliberately held our nation in Limbo since the 2006 elections with their Senate filibuster, is nothing short of partisan neglect of the country’s needs at best.

Truth be told, if Democrat’s initiatives would be so bad for the country, Republicans would do well to let them pass these initiatives, so that the public could witness just how bad Democrat policies are. That however, is not the case. The fear of Republicans and the motive for their filibusters, is precisely that things in the country might actually improve if Democrat initiatives passed. Ergo, the constant waves of filibusters on ANY bill that might improve America’s future which is Democrat sponsored.

Congress has not been completely idle, however, some bi-partisan efforts have succeeded. Here are the most recent ones:

# Housing Bill with Energy Tax Credit Extensions - Concurrence Vote Passed
# Funding to Combat AIDS, Malaria, and Tuberculosis - Concurrence Vote Passed
# National Highway Bridge Reconstruction and Inspection Act of 2007 - Bill Passed
# Housing Bill with Energy Tax Credit Extensions - Concurrence Vote Passed
# Restoring the Highway Trust Fund Balance - Bill Passed
# Adding Parts of the Taunton River to the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System - Bill Passed
# Allowing the Use of Certain Terms in Within the Intelligence Community - Amendment Adopted

Yea David, just like when the Republicans had control the Democrats used the filibuster to, so go on with your blame game. Both parties use it, SO WHAT. Why can’t you just admit, we have a bunch of useless butt holes in congress, with the chief butt holes Pelosi and Reid

David, Interesting and timely article. I hope the answer to your question “will the politicians in the House be willing to put politics aside long enough to vote for the protection of Congressional authority?” is a resounding yes.

To get a subpeona from Congress and refuse to show up to testify is clearly a showing of contempt for the representatives of the people of this Country. To so blatently defy the intentions of the constitution as W and his administration has done is criminal.

To see this painted by the right wing as a partisan issue, grandstanding and not of importance saddens me. To think that not so long ago the conservatives were purported to be the defenders of the constitution, yet once in power to see these self proclaimed patriotic defenders of freedom casually blow this off as pandering to the lunatic left as Jim T has done, or as unimportant as KAP has done seems to reveal their true colors. Defending the constitution is the number one responsibility of the Congress. Why have the repubs and conservatives fallen so far in such a short time?

Too much liberty and freedom? What the hell does that mean?

J2T2
Like I said above WHAT IS CONGRESS GOING TO FIND OUT, THAT THEY DO NOT KNOW ALREADY? That’s the problem I have. We have other pressing problems in this country. I also said congress should be held in contempt for not doing their JOB, FROM THE PRESIDENT ON DOWN ALL SHOULD BE HELD IN CONTEMPT by the American People. Those butt holes in Washington are only in it for the money and prestige, THEY COULD GIVE A CRAP LESS ABOUT YOU AND ME.

Karl Rove has posted the answers to all Congress’s questions online.

You can find them right here.

The current Congress has the lowest approval rating of any American institution ever as long as Pew has been taking surveys. This numbnuts behavior is the reason why.

Why don’t they work on real problems?

Yea Jack, 9%,even G.W.’s approval rating is higher. To me that’s saying something!!!!!!!!!!!!

Republicans in the Senate have broken the record for filibusters over a two year Congressional term in just the first year. They have decided to hold America hostage for a short term political gain, by being able to call the Democratic controlled Congress a “do nothing Congress,” instead of working to pass legislation for the good of the country.

Republicans nowadays vote in lockstep and obstruct in lockstep.

“WHAT IS CONGRESS GOING TO FIND OUT, THAT THEY DO NOT KNOW ALREADY?”

If he doesnt testify nothing, if he does.. who knows what he will say. But to use the standard of “what will they find out ” seems to lower the bar farther than we should dont you think?

“We have other pressing problems in this country.”
This to seems to lower the bar farther than we should. But to think that protecting the constitution from an administration that has flouted “its just a GD piece of paper” mentality in the faces of true freedom loving Americans for years is not important and then to hear its not a pressing problem truely saddens me. KAP what has happened to those people that consider themselves conservatives?

“I also said congress should be held in contempt for not doing their JOB, FROM THE PRESIDENT ON DOWN ALL SHOULD BE HELD IN CONTEMPT by the American People.”

And for the most part KAP they are. However its not a formal charge and not the same thing as what Rove is facing. Whether you agree with the majority party or not when a lawful subpeona is issued by Congress respect for the institution should dictate that Mr. Rove present himself to the Congress. Let the Lawyers present their cases, but to disrespect the institution itself tells me Rove has issues with his past actions.

The real issue here KAP, to me is what has happened to the principles of the average American conservative? Why would they not see the importance of this issue?

The hypocrisy demonstrated by the conservatives and Republicans in this discussion is noteworthy and should be noted.

There are liberals and Democrats who have acted in a hypocritical manner as well. This does not excuse the position of those who advocate letting Rove ignore a Congressional subpoena.

Are you prepared to defend this type of behavior from ANY political party? Search yer hearts ye defenders of the Bush administration!!! Is it truly acceptable to stack the judicial system with political operatives? Claim the power to ignore laws and the decisions of Congress? Abuse signing statements? Use federal departments to grant economic advantages for political allies and cronies? Persecute the political opposition with the justice system? Are you ready to support these type actions should the Democrats gain the WH and the Congress?

Really?

J2T2
Importance of what? As Jack pointed out in the link he already gave congress answers. WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT? The only thing I can figure is that this congress is fishing for Trout in a Mud hole. With the congress we have now I’d tell to kiss off if they wanted me to appear. With the election 3 months away don’t you think it may have some political overtones??????

KAP, then why won’t Rove go on record with those answers under oath, what is he afraid of? If he didn’t do anything wrong then why is he refusing to testify? How would you feel if the Obama administration purges the justice department of all Republicans, and should a future Republican Congress call someone in his administration to testify they just refuse? Do you really want to remove the checks and balances our fore fathers put in place, or is it only because it’s one of your guys this time?

Jack are these answers given under oath? If not dont you find them to be useless? Why would such a staunch conservative think that it is ok for the aristocracy to have seperate rules of law that dont apply to the rest of us?

“The current Congress has the lowest approval rating of any American institution ever as long as Pew has been taking surveys.”
“Yea Jack, 9%,even G.W.’s approval rating is higher. To me that’s saying something”

So the polls do matter Jack? Why the sudden change in your position on the polls? KAP do you truely beleive that because the Congress has low approval ratings they should not then be able to compel administration officials to testify in front of them? At what rating should their duties change such that they should/should not be able to compel testimony?

“Importance of what? As Jack pointed out in the link he already gave congress answers. WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT?”

So should a child molester , murderer, drug dealer, tax evader etc. be allowed to provide “answers” while not under oath? Why would this subterfuge be acceptable to conservatives when its the aristocracy called to task but not when its the common people called to task? Why such a double standard?

“With the election 3 months away don’t you think it may have some political overtones??????”
KAP do you really beleive this whole issue started just 3 months prior to election or do you think that perhaps this issue has been ongoing for quite some time?

Come on guys remember those principles you so proudly claim as conservative. After this sad display of contemptible partisianship is it appropriate to say that conservatives principles are not worth the GD paper they are printed on, much like W’s opinion of the constitution?

Isn’t it funny how neo-conservatives (not true conservatives, mind you) always say ‘if you’ve got nothing to hide, then what are you afraid of?’ I mean, wasn’t that the the justification for wiretapping citizens’ phones without a warrant? If we have nothing to hide, the government should be able to spy on us…

If Rove truly has nothing to hide…

goo, it means precisely what I said it means:

“too much liberty, too much freedom, which interest groups find threatening or offensive in some manner.”

Too much for those interest groups. Hence, the growing police state and erosion of freedom and liberty within our public and private lives. One of the worst of these was installed by Bush, who segregated supporters from non-supporters for his departures and arrivals such that supporters were within view of Bush and press, and non-supporters were forced to assemble sometimes blocks away.

This kind of political segregation of public assembly strikes at the very heart of American rights and freedoms equal for all. It is symbolic of the far greater discrimination in how the laws are applied and upon whom. The hiring and firing of justice prosecutors over the intent to go after Democrats overwhelmingly was a more extreme example. Pardoning Scooter Libbey even worse.

Abject failure to identify and prosecute KBR for electrocuting our soldiers in Iraq, even worse. Prosecuting the grunts doing the torture at Abu Ghraib while letting the real culprits avoid even investigation, even worse.

Given the number of rapes and sexual harrassment of our female soldiers in Iraq, where is our government when it comes to defending and protecting these women’s rights? They live in fear of getting the boot if they come forward.

This kind of unequal treatment under the law is what we called political depravity in Ancient Rome. But here in America, we call it the American way and wave our flags proudly, especially if we are Republican.

It is tearing our nation’s future apart, undermining our ability to govern ourselves, and our children’s future responsibly. Given the assaults on that future by the Republicans, they have a lot of gall to now complain of do nothing Democrats. Doing nothing would have been immensely preferable when Republicans held power of the Congress.

Under GOP rule the national debt has nearly doubled, and the trade deficits amounting to a giveaway of more than 2.5 trillion dollars to foreign corporations is undermining our nation’s economic future. Yet, Republicans continue to call for ever more ‘free’ trade. Free giveaway of America’s economic future is more like it.

Where is Bush’s veto pen now. And where was he when this year’s deficit rose to more than 400 billion dollars? What happened to Republican’s promise to cut the deficit in half? And they have the gall to complain about Democrats.

When it comes to spending, Republicans proved emphatically they are all talk and no walk.

Touche’ Doug. Touche’!

Yup, we are an unhappy bunch. Never have found out what Cheny and the oil patch gang cooked up for an energy policy at the White House meeting before the Iraq war. Congress only votes on 9% percent of the bills floating through. Most are approved without being read by ‘unanimous consent and while opposing members are away from Capitol Hill. No accountability. No oversight. Enter a dude on a white horse. How about a political party where members provide oversight of those party members who achieve elected or appointed office; congress, VP, Pres. ambassadors, appointees, and Supreme Court Justices. If members disapprove of specific actions they get on the Internet and level a pro-forma complaint to the Party. If x percent of members complain an up or down vote by the membership is automatically required. If 66% of members vote down then that official is rejected from the Party. He/she would serve out their remaining term and then wither like a grape on the vine. Think what that would do to a Ted Stephens, Phil Graham, Bush, Cheny, etc. Bush would never have made it to a second term had his Party rejected him in the first term. Had the Founder’s created a fourth branch for citizen oversight of government we would have a more perfect Union today. We can’t expect Congress to do something like that so, let’s have each Party’s membership provide the oversight. Totally clean and easy, no laws to pass, no trials or Executive privilege involved. Just a vote by concerned citizens. Check it out at www.demreps.com

The reason Rove will not testify before Democratic tribunal is the separation of powers. Our Constitution separates the powers of the executive and the legislature. The congress does not have the right to this sort of thing. The Dems know this. That is why they scream and gnash their teeth, but do not take any legal steps. They are liars. Once again, they want to win in the media what they cannot win in justice. Remember Fitzamas and what they didn’t get legally.

We have specific legal procedures. Congress can follow them, but prefers to play politics. They manage to fool some of the people all of the time to make them think this is somehow a good thing.

Remember Fitzmas. That is what the REAL system produced. They got one poor guy lying about something that was not a crime (just as Bill Clinton did). Both Clinton and Liby fell afoul of the congressional witch hunt. It is not a good thing.

This is all just publicity grabbing by Congress and just another attempt to score political points before the fall election. Saber rattling at it’s best.

Jim T. -

Hey bro - you posted a litany of reasons why we shouldn’t hold Bush and co. accountable for the crimes they have committed.

Did you feel the same way about Clinton when he was being impeached for something that did NOT cost our country thousands of lives and literally hundreds of billions of dollars? Maybe you did - I honestly don’t remember.

But the crux of the matter is that Bush has, unlike EVERY other president, used ‘executive privilege’ to prevent the conduct of CRIMINAL investigations by Congress…and if you’ll recall, part of Congress’ job is to hold the president ACCOUNTABLE for his actions.

We used to stand against torture, warrantless search and seizure, and wrongful imprisonment. Now my country is doing it. I have to wonder how many federal agents decided to use their newfound power to check up on their ex-wives, or on guys they just don’t like? It’s thinks like this that the Fourth Amendment was supposed to protect us from. But we’ll never know now, will we?

Every president, congressman, and servicemember takes an oath to protect the constitution. Bush and co. have knowingly and willfully violated several parts of the constitution.

No, bro, it is ESSENTIAL that we hold Bush and co. accountable for what they have done…for if we don’t, then that sets a PRECEDENT for all presidents and administrations in the future to do as they will with NO accountability.

Come to think of it, this reminds me a great deal of what the Caesars were able to do when the Roman Senate was no longer able to hold them accountable….

David Huntwork states “This is all just publicity grabbing by Congress and just another attempt to score political points before the fall election. Saber rattling at it’s best.”

The Senate first authorized the subpoena in March of 2007. Had Rove not tried to repub his way out of it this issue could have been solved. It has been the repubs that have delayed this thing until just prior to the election. But in truth this poor attempt to frame this as a political ploy is only a diversion from the repub/conservative attempts to subvert the constitution.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/22/politics/main2595270.shtml

Jack said “The reason Rove will not testify before Democratic tribunal is the separation of powers. Our Constitution separates the powers of the executive and the legislature. The congress does not have the right to this sort of thing.”

Jack the Congress has oversight responsibilities, which I am sure you are well aware of, that demands they look into abuses and alleged abuses by the executive branch. Seems the federal judge hearing the case agrees with the Congress.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/TOP%20STORY/1796405/

BTW Jack if you were an elected rep leading the way in Congress on this issue would you really agree to the terms Rove insisted upon?

Jim T and Jack,

Congress asks someone to come in and testify and they can just say no?… It’s not important to establish that no - you can’t do that? You think that Rove is above the law?

Personally, I think that Bush and co. should rot in prison. I understand there are people that disagree, but I didn’t think there were people that thought they could just flat out refuse to testify to congress.

Jack, how do you reconcile your statement with Congress’s right to impeach officials of the executive branch?

Jack absurdly said:

“The reason Rove will not testify before Democratic tribunal is the separation of powers. Our Constitution separates the powers of the executive and the legislature. The congress does not have the right to this sort of thing.”

If the Congress has the power to try, convict, and remove from office, the president for high crimes and misdemeanors, Jack, then the Congress DOES have the power to subpeona persons in the White House with the force of the Constitutional powers granted them.

I know the Constitution is a complicated document, but, the ignorance of Congressional power to impeach and subpoena in the quoted comment is a bit difficult to avoid commenting on. Separation of powers doctrine does not override or cancel the the specific powers granted to the Congress in the Constitution. Quit listening to Bush’s spokespersons, they are hell bent on shredding the Constitution, not observing and protecting it, Jack.

David

IF the Dems in congress want to impeach, let them do it. They have no intention of doing it. They are playing cowardly games.

Absent the impeachment,the power to drag presidential advisors before congress is not established in law or precedent. While I respect your right to interpret the constitution, I will do with the Supreme Court on this one.

All this because of the firing of 9 U.S. Attorneys. Like I said the Dems are fishing for Trout in a mud hole like they don’t have anything better to do LIKE GETTING THE PRICE OF FUEL AND FOOD UNDERCONTROL. Like I also said we need to find congress in CONTEMPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“All this because of the firing of 9 U.S. Attorneys.”

Becuase they wouldnt do the administrations dirty work, go figure, yet its ok to spend millions on whitewater and presidential affairs. Such strong conservative principles KAP.

“like they don’t have anything better to do LIKE GETTING THE PRICE OF FUEL AND FOOD UNDERCONTROL.”

Isnt this a free market issue for conservatives, why the sudden rush to get the government to solve these issues? IMHO the continuous attempts by the repubs to reframe this into a small political games is disheartening. The Congress has an obligation to the people of this country to protect and uphold the constitution, to see the conservatives fall for the rhetoric of the administration without questioning anything is disturbing. It reminds me of the T-shirt “It isnt Fascism when we do it”.

Jack, don’t change the subject. The subject was not impeachment but, Congress’ constitutional authority for oversight and checking the executive branch for actions unconsitutional or otherwise in violation of the laws of this land.

If Congress does not have this authority, America is a dictatorship - since the executive branch holds power of the Justice Dep’t and police enforcement powers. Without Congress’ power to investigate and compel testimony under laws against purjury, the executive has no constraints, whatsoever.

This is civics 101, Jack. Your comment I replied to evidenced a fundamental lack of awareness of these basic constitutional authorities, when you, in effect, said executive privilege supercedes congressional subpeona powers. It doesn’t. Never has. And if it ever does, it is time for another revolution to overthrow the unchecked power of the dictator in the White House.

A fact lost on KAP in his last comment. Though KAP supporting unchecked and unbridled dictator powers in a Republican president, doesn’t surprise me whatsoever. That is what blind partisanship does to people.

Congress has more important things to worry about then them 9 U.S Attorneys. Their spending millions on this B.S. to J2T2. I don’t give a hoot why they got fired. The only ones who do are you LIBERALS. Congress is just sticking their nose into something they don’t need to concern themselves with. There is nothing in the constitution that says the President can’t fire whom he hired. He don’t need congress’ approval for that. They need to get off the BS and get down to business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone please explain how Rove can site executive privilege in ignoring the subpoena, in a matter that the President wasn’t involved in?

The committee is investigating whether or not the inprisonment of Governer Siegelman was legitimate or a partisan witch hunt. There is evidence that Rove was having discussions with the department of justice in regards to Siegelman. What is the advisor to the President doing getting involved with the department of justice in this case, and how could he claim executive privilege if the President was not involved and it wasn’t a matter of national security?

By allowing this disregard for checks and balances, Republicans are saying it will be perfectly acceptable for an Obama administration to behave in the same way. Is that the type of Executive branch you really want?

DRR
I DO NOT SUPPORT A DICTATOR IN THE WHITE HOUSE. Far from it, the fact is I don’t support a congress that goes on a WITCH HUNT every time some one did something they don’t like be it Rep. or Dem controlled congress and this congress has been on a WITCH HUNT EVER SINCE THEY TOOK CONTROL. IMO I hope all of congress gets the boot this comming election. I know it won’t happen but at least I can still dream in this country, for how long I don’t know maybe that right will be taken away or I’ll have to appear before the judicary committee for unconstitutional dreaming.

“I know it won’t happen but at least I can still dream in this country, for how long I don’t know maybe that right will be taken away or I’ll have to appear before the judicary committee for unconstitutional dreaming.”

KAP the Congress is doing their job. This administration has exceeded their constitutional authority. To condone this type of activity because its a repub administration will not help to ensure your rights will be here for the next generation it will only ensure that you will be more apt to suffer the unitary executive more often called a dictatorship. What could be more important than that for this congress?

All this witch hunt malarky is just that malarky. If this Congress was doing as you seem to think wouldnt Bush and Cheney be the main targets?

I understand that many conservatives have had it drilled into them that the left will be the cause of an authoritarian government but when the current administration is doing just that its time to take the blinders off, stop swilling the kool aid and recognize the facts. This has all to do with an administration that is pushing the constitutional boundaries and little to do with election day politics, no matter how it is spun on conservative radio.

David

The fact is that executive privelege remains a murky area and has been ever since George Washington refused to comply with a request by the House of Representatives for documents relating the Jay Treaty. By your definition, perhaps every president has been a dictator, but none of them have made themselves subservient to the congress. That is the way it has been and is still.

If the Dems think they have a case, let them push it to the courts. This is how it happened in the past, including with Bill Clinton.

The Rove refusal is in line with the traditions of our country.

I am not changing the subject when I mention impeachment. I am sure some of the Dems would like to do that if they had the courage and the chance of winning, but they have neither. That is why they try all this sniping w/o coming out in the open.

Jack said: “The Rove refusal is in line with the traditions of our country. “

That is so much partisan bullcrap. If this were the exact same circumstances and it was Clinton’s White House, you would be all over this guy having to comply with the Constitutional authority of the people and the Congress over the executive branch.

And again, your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of executive privilege. Rove MUST, by law comply with the subpoena or prepare for the advent of being arrested by the Master of Arms of the U.S. Congress. Congress can, and has, the authority to have him arrested for contempt of Congress.

Executive privilege exempts him from divulging information exchanged with the President once he is before the Congress. It does not, and has never, granted immunity from Congressional oversight or subpeona.

And like I said, your writings here, indicate that if this shoe were on the other foot, your position on this would quite the reverse. Partisanship really does wear like a cart horse’s blinders.

KAP, it is not a matter of what folks don’t like. Laws and treaties have been violated by members of this Administration. Has nothing to do with likes or dislikes. One law, applicable to all. That is one of America’s most fundamental ideals. Stray far from it in government, and our democratic republic ceases to be that, and becomes quite something else altogether.

There is a law against discriminatory behavior toward civil servants within the Justice Department based on partisanship. The Witch Hunt, was conducted by the White House trying to eek out any liberal minded civil servants and targeting them for firing or harassment until they quit. And what a Witch Hunt it was given they fired or forced out upstanding Republicans on suspicions.

Oh yes, a law was broken here. And many more. You do realize what is happening here, don’t you? The Democrats are well aware their access to evidence is being hampered while Bush is in office. But, come Feb. 2009, if McCain is not our next president, that evidence will come forward. Do you really want to stake your reputation for defending this criminal behavior now, knowing the potential for evidence proving your position foolhardy at best in just 6 to 9 months from now?

I find it very disconcerting that partisans on the right and left can so cavalierly dismiss the laws and criminal behavior of those within their own party. But, to balance it, I am heartened by the ever growing Independent voter numbers, who give their allegiance to neither of these corrupt Party’s corrupt politicians.

I expect Rove to comply or be arrested. Just as I expect the Dem’s to stop stalling on the Wm. Jefferson case, and press for his trial, if the evidence is deemed sufficient by the courts. Sen. Stevens is innocent until proven guilty, but, he is not exempt from investigation or prosecution under the laws of our nation. Neither is the president or any of his minions.

If you hold a different position, then yes, you are supporting dictatorship. It just couldn’t be more clear. You respect our Constitution and subject your President to it, or, your deny our Constitution and favor dictators of your party’s ilk. There is no middle ground on this issue, KAP. Whether you admit it or not, I am confident you can see that.

I highly recommend the book Animal Farm to you. It would appeal to your and Jack’s sense of some Americans being more equal than others in the eyes of the law. It’s only about 1 hour’s read, but, really covers the issue of this debate in every aspect.

pops mcgee, you give these Republican supporters too much credit for being able to see the shoe on the other foot.

Like President, like followers. Unable to foresee the consequences of their actions.

I take that back. In reality, they probably know no Democrat like Obama would ever abuse the laws, treaties, and Constitution as Bush has; so they really aren’t that worried about the shoe being on the other foot.

Jack

The Rove refusal is in line with the traditions of our country.

Before I start I would like to say that I know this post will be a bit off topic. But in regards to the discussion of placing oneself above the law here, I feel it is fair to present this argument in the form of a perception of questionable arrogance.

In light of the discussion of arrogance in a thread of yours in which you acknowledge a perception of arrogance in Obama and consider it demeaning; I am wondering if you would also apply the term arrogant to Rove in the context of this thread. And if so do you find his refusal to comply as demeaning? Or does the fact that he is a republican render his arrogance inconsequential?

If you do not see Rove as arrogant, would it not be fair to say that you are wrong in seeing Obama as arrogant for appearing as what he aspires to be.

Glenn C.,

Well, bro, I typed an answer (took me over an hour) and I, by accident surfed away (looking up stats) and lost it all.

I’ll recreate the post later…gotta go to work!

With all the real problems facing this country Congress has nothing better to do than play politics?
While Rove is in contempt of Congress I don’t see it being anything compared to the real problems facing this country.
Why aint Congress addressing illegal immigration, the deficit, the national debt, our broken education system, the high cost of health care, the extra high cost of fuel, and research for alternative fuels?
When they start working on these problems and start finding real answers to them, then they can go after Rove, Bush, Chaney, or anyone else.
Until then it aint nothing more than election year politics.

If Rove aint bothered to honor any of Congress’ subpoenas what makes any of y’all think that he’ll be worried about a contempt citation?

As an independent, I do hope all of these conversations about this subject will be available to us in four years or so when the Republican controlled congress is trying to subpoena someone from the Obama administration… it will be interesting to see all of the Reps talking about how congress has the authority of oversight while all the Dems dismiss it as nothing but political grandstanding… I’ll want to look back on these notes and see who amongts us flip-flops on these issues…

As an independent, I feel that congress indeed DOES have the power of oversight and SHOULD compel witnessesto testify under oath when a crime may have taken place… just like when Slick Willy apparently lied under oath.

I find this whole “why doesn’t Congress do something more worthwhile” line of argumentation amusing. First of all, keeping some semblance of law and order in this country is arguably as important as anything else Congress does. Second, there is not mutual exclusion between the two activities. It is not as though this current issue with Karl Rove is eclipsing Congress’s ability to attend to any other issue.

If the current Congress fails to address the other “more important” issues people have been referring to that will be an entirely separate failing (one which I remind you Congress as a whole has been guilty of for the past 8 years). Stating or implying that dropping this subpoena would be for the good of the country is absolute nonsense.

Doug, quite right. Your esteemed good common sense is shared by an ever growing majority in America called Independent registered voters.

Last I checked, about 8 months ago, the Independent registered voters outnumbered either Democratic or Republican registered voters. Perhaps, common sense is taking hold America in her future’s defense.

Ron Brown said: “Why aint Congress addressing illegal immigration, the deficit, the national debt, our broken education system, the high cost of health care, the extra high cost of fuel, and research for alternative fuels?”

Well, Ron, Congress just extended the Everify law another 5 years, giving employers the ability to verify legal residence status of new potential employees. It’s not much, but, something.

The deficit this year is set to approach a near record, yet again. But, then look at the presidential candidate’s positions on this topic, and you will readily see that Congress is in for a serious belt tightening under the next president, regardless of who it is, since all of them are committed to halting the growth in spending and lowering the deficit.

Congress and Pres. Bush are grabbing all they can while the grabbing is good. Bush found his veto pen after many years, for about a week, but, didn’t like the way it felt in his hand, so he promptly discarded it.

Congress is preparing with a slew of hearings, to put forth legislation to improve education, and lower health care costs. When this lame duck President is out of office, and IF Obama wins, we will see some fairly rapid progress on these two issues.

As for the high cost of fuel, short of subsidies to the public with public money, and the investigations and probes into curtailing speculative commodity bidding, there is no short term solution to high energy prices.

Drilling more will only retard the growth and development of alternatives. The fact of the matter is, it is higher energy costs that are prompting efforts to develop alternatives and cheaper energy for the future.

The oil prices are dropping because the rumors of shortages touted by Republicans and their Oil buddies have been found to be lies. As I have reported for months, there are no oil shortages. That was a deception put forth to increase bidding and profits on oil and derivative products. It didn’t work as well as hoped. Exxon-Mobil appears to be considering getting out of the gas station business altogether. Profit margins are just too slim - less than 7%.

RickIL, trying to hold a Republican accountable to logic and consistency? That’s funny. One only need look at what platform Republicans ran on to get power, and what they did when they had it, to recognize such an effort is futile.

DRR
I AM NOT SUPPORTING BUSH OR ANYONE ELSE. All I am sayiny is that Congress has better things to do then go on Witch Hunts. If these guys are guilty of crimes prove it in a court of law. I’m all for that. As far as things that are unconstitutional, I don’t see congress have hearings on the judges that are legislating from the bench, O BUT THESE JUDGES ARE FAVORING YOU LIBERALS BY DOING YOUR BIDDING BY OVERRULEING WHAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTE FOR. When you talk about unconstitutional and high crimes and misdeminors just look at those judges who are doing it right in front of your face. And as far as a dictator goes if BHO wins HE WILL BE THE NEXT DICTATOR IN THE WHITE HOUSE, Orwells 1984 will come true.

David R

RickIL, trying to hold a Republican accountable to logic and consistency? That’s funny. One only need look at what platform Republicans ran on to get power, and what they did when they had it, to recognize such an effort is futile.

Agreed David. Accountability is not in their dictionary. They avoid the word as though the very mention of it will spread plague and death. They avoid it because facing it would mean having to deal with another hated and feared word. Hypocrisy in the face of the realities of mis-aligned and deceptive agendas. This current crop is imo an exceptionally sleazy bunch.

I don’t see congress have hearings on the judges that are legislating from the bench, O BUT THESE JUDGES ARE FAVORING YOU LIBERALS BY DOING YOUR BIDDING BY OVERRULEING WHAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTE FOR. When you talk about unconstitutional and high crimes and misdeminors just look at those judges who are doing it right in front of your face.
Ok I`ll bite, please tell me about these “high crimes” that are being committed by judges via their rulings.This should be amusing. — Savage

Doug L

I like your approach to this matter. It is sensible, reasonable and telling of just what ails our congress, our executive and their lack of productive functionality. Of course it is all about accountability and efforts to avoid it at all costs. Until we can find a way to hold our governmental employees accountable there will be little progress in the halls of congress. I would suggest that short of revolution the only option we have to curtail this problem is at the polling booth. It is the responsibility of the voters to insure that our employees are on the up and up.

Savage
I know this is a state issue, California Supreme court overidding 61% of the people who voted for a marriage issue law. the 9th circuit court constantly legislating from the bench and striking down anything that was remotely conservative in favor of liberal issues, this is just one state.

kAP,
I am just a dumb farmboy but I always thought that court where supposed to rule on the CONSTITUTIONALITY of a law not on how people feel about it. Your way would have schools still segregated, and other evils that the people approved of during the times unresolved.
And that was also why federal judges are appointed not elected if i recall correctly.
Now I am still waiting for “high crimes” that are being committed by judges via their rulings.
Savage

Savage
Yes rule on constitutionality, not legislate which the 9th circuit court is famous for doing which in itself is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and the justices shoul be held liable for.

KAP, where is the law violated by the 9th Circuit?

Please educate us on this point of law.

KAP said: “Congress has better things to do then go on Witch Hunts.”

KAP, how do you know if it is a witch hunt if the investigation has not gone forth yet? That is the point of requiring testimony, to determine if there is merit or not to further investigation of the matter. You are prejudging the outcome of Rove’s testimony before he has provided it. Prejudice, is something Americans are trying to move past. Why not join them?

Ok if the 9th circuit court is passing unconstitutional laws — why are they not being appealed to the supreme court and being stuck down? educate me please. — Savage

I am a independent — reformed by the past 12 years republican. Clinton`s 2nd term was the first time I ever voted for a democrat and really I was voting against what I saw as the right wasting time and money trying to hang the man that the people voted in.
Clinton put his peter before nation for about 3 minutes and the same people that are defending the current crop of fools who put party and power before nation in all things acted like a lie about a bj was the end of the nation as we know it.
If what happened during the past 8 years is just swept under the rug — what lessons will this nation learn to keep it from happening again? Or do you people that want case closed/nothing to see here — secretly want a closed to the people run by we know best government?

DRR
The most recent one that I found was on 6/18/08.
33 janitors were fired in L.A. because their SS# did not match the government database. The fabulous 9th Circuit Court ordered these janitors rehired w/backpay because the Union said they were fired without just cause. A BLATENT MISCHARRIGE OF JUSTICE. In 2002 75% of this courts findings were overturned by SCOTUS.

Savage

Or do you people that want case closed/nothing to see here — secretly want a closed to the people run by we know best government?

You nailed it. You may be a farm boy but please don’t paint yourself as dumb. What you write here is exactly what GW and his lackey congress want. Denial accords accountability. So long as they provide no input they do not have to pony up accountability. It is a stalling measure generally used by those who have something to hide and something to lose by revelation. No talk, no risked perjury. It is a process that leaves us with more questions and suspicions than answers or truth. It also creates the perception of a double standard with regard to the law. It seems that under a republican interpretation some people are indeed above the law and must answer to no one.

Send Karl Rove to Jail

I think most of us fully understand that it needs to be done.

KAP, and therein lies the reason and purpose of SCOTUS. Your intent on uniformity is reminiscent of totalitarian regimes. Our system allows for flexibility and innovation. And only about 10% of innovation ever finds a home in our daily lives. Our government is no different. In fact, it was designed such that the lower levels of government can experiment and innovate - and if they go too far in encroachments upon basic values or protections, it is the responsibility of higher levels of government to check and balance them.

If you would do away with the 9th Circuit, your rationale would logically have to demand we do away with city, county and state governments as well, and have a centralized uniform authority insuring sameness.

When the Civil Rights bill was signed into law, the majority of Americans opposed it. That is one of the great strengths of our democratic republic. Our government has the structural capacity to act in our posterity’s best interests even when we as a majority of citizenry can’t envision that future.

It’s a messy, sloppy, and error prone system, but, from that mess, slop, and error fraught system comes some of the greatest humanitarian changes in social society the world has ever witnessed for large societies.

Good job KAP its all about those evil judges on the 9th circuit court and has nothing to do with the current administration.

The issue is real simple, does someone in the current administration have the right to ignore the Congress and blatently refuse to comply with lawful and legal orders to appear in front of a congressional comittee investigating possible criminal activity to answer questions under oath.

If I understand your previous comments your logic, if applied to others in this country, is this: Its the cops fault for questioning the robber. The cops should be out catching murderers and shouldnt waste time catching robbers. Not only is it the cops fault, but the robber should be able to get a list of questions the judge and jury may want to ask and then answer the questions without fear of perjury. Not only that but you have determined that because you believe cops in another city have wrongfully arrested someone the robber should not be responsible for his actions and the cops shouldnt be able to bring charges against him.

Again, for EVERYONE

Does anyone here not get the FACT that if we do not hold Bush and Co. accountable for crimes they committed, if we cannot even call Bush’s advisers to testify…

…we set a PRECEDENT for EVERY FUTURE PRESIDENT of either (or any) party.

It is Congress’ stated duty to hold the president accountable - that’s in the CONSTITUTION. If we fail to do so, then every president in the future can point to this as a precedent for ignoring Congress’ subpoenas for testimony.

One would think that even the conservatives here could see the very real danger in this….

Glen, no case no trial.

Dems were elected to do this and they have not.

Has not stopped them from making a few unsuccessful tries.

Given approval ratings and the 06 election promises and the drone of impleachment stories leading up to 06 elections, the American people wanted it and our policy makers in power passed.

Bush and Co. will be gone soon. Perhaps if we have a Dem Prez & Congress they will take some action in 2009. But I suspect not. They’ll hide behind “moving the country forward” and rob the people of justice.

The point I trying to get across is, the liberal courts have been getting away with playing with the constitution for awhile now and getting away with it. It’s time we held all officials of this country responsible for their actions from the president on down. The democrats need to start looking in their own backyard before going to someone elses. Guarenteed Bush and some of his people should be prosicuted for their actions but so should some of the democrats.

“The democrats need to start looking in their own backyard before going to someone elses. Guarenteed Bush and some of his people should be prosicuted for their actions but so should some of the democrats.”

KAP I would agree that should an official in the next Democratic administration act as Rove may have done on both the Attorneys and the Alabama Gov. that they should face the same consequences as Rove should face whether it be a majority dem or majority repub Congress. However if the repubs/conservatives continue to stonewall, deny obsfucsate, and belittle this issue and the dems fade away precedence will be set and we will continue to watch our country slide towards a totalitarian dictatorship.

David
The Everify law is a very weak law in that any illegal can get a hold of a drivers license and a social security card. A few years back I hired a couple of guys at the factory. They both had a GA drivers license and a social security card. Just what the Everify law calls for. The only problem is after a couple of years we found out that the SS numbers these guys had weren’t theirs. They had been issued to folks that had died years ago. If that’s the best Congress can do, or is willing to do, we’re in a whole heap of dog dodo.
I hear the tough talk coming form both camps. But given their records in Congress I doubt anything will get done to slow deficit spending any at all. In fact I look for it to increase. Specially if Obama gets elected.
Of course Congress and Bush are grabbing all they can. Bush has less than a year to get his. And with a 14% approval rating Congress just might only have less than a year too.
We don’t need hearings that cost millions of dollars a piece and run up the deficit. We need sound legislation that will improve the performance of our schools and get them back on track. One of the things that bugs me most at the school board meetings is everyone wanting to form a committee and hold hearings on just about everything that comes up. And it bugs me even more with our do nothing Congress. It can spend the money but we never see anything from it. And I seriously doubt that an Obama win will help the situation any.
I’m not for or against more drilling for oil. I’m for getting us off of being depended on foreign oil. If that takes more drilling, then so be it. I’d rather see alternative fuels but these are years down the road. What we need is a quick fix that will work until the alternatives are ready for market. And like it or not right now that fix is domestic oil.
Poor Exxon-Mobil, only 7% profit? Wish I was operating on 7% profit. I’d be a happy camper.
I just find it very interesting that with all the time Congress has had to go after Rove for contempt, they wait until 3 months before the election to go after him. Just more election year politicking while the real problems facing this country are ignored by our do nothing Congress and get worse by the day.

KAP, I am with you. Violations of the law incur consequences for us regular folk, and it must be no different for politicians in government.

But, do not make the mistake of believing it is only liberal judges who play with the Constitution. There are ample examples of conservative judges playing with it too. The real issue is this, the laws should not be liberal or conservative. They should be constitutional, serve the preservation of social harmony in the nation and the people’s expectation for just outcomes to wrong doing, and lastly, seek that American ideal to create a more perfect union.

Of course, there is a lot of room for debate as to just how well laws serve these purposes, and that room for debate results in conservatives and liberals fighting over bench seats. Objectivity is no less scarce in the selection of judges than it is in selecting congress persons or a president, ultimately.

Ron Brown, drilling is no quick fix. That is a 10 year fix, and only a partial fix at that. You do realize we import 70% of our oil, right? We don’t have the capitalist resources to replace that much oil with domestic oil resources.

That is one reason why alternatives to fossil fuels is absolutely essential. The other is global climate change. We only have about 5 years to arrest the growth in greenhouse gases before passing tipping points which will make living on this planet vastly more expensive, according to a growing consensus of scientists reviewing the situation. Being the biggest contributors to greenhouse gases. it is up to the U.S. and Europe at the moment, to arrest this growth.

And we must develop relatively inexpensive clean coal technology which we can give away to China and India as incentive for them to cut their contributions.

The clock is ticking. The solutions require sacrifice and the best science and technology available. Are Americans and their government capable of such solutions? Time will tell. Drilling for more fossil fuels however, is the Ostrich approach to the problem. Ignore it, and it will go away.

David -

The real irony is, which president do the Republicans hold up as the prime example of the weakness of Democrats? Jimmy Carter.

And who was it that wanted to push the country to alternative fuels (and increased nuclear power)? Jimmy Carter.

And now we can all see the price we’re paying for the Republicans’ scorn of a man whose foresight would have kept us out of the current energy crisis. I share part of the blame - I considered myself a Republican then. I’ve since learned the price we all pay for such hate-mongering. My apologies for using a ‘stock Democratic accusation’…but ‘hate-mongering’ is what they do.

Why aint Congress addressing illegal immigration, the deficit, the national debt, our broken education system, the high cost of health care, the extra high cost of fuel, and research for alternative fuels?

Where was the congress when it had such a Republican majority? Why weren’t those issues addressed then? Sorry, this can’t be blamed on the current congress.

Illegal immigration, the deficit, the national debt, a broken education system, high health care costs, high fuel costs, and no alternatives to petroleum, are clearly all things that the Rpblcns favor, seriously, I’m not even being sarcastic here, even though my opinions are most clearly expressed by the Onion now, as here on Bush Touring America To Survey Damage Caused By His Presidency: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aEURwsrUSQ

Glenn, I agree. What ticked a lot of Americans off, including Repubs, about Jimmy Carter was the economy, mostly. The President has limited tools to manage the economy. The Congress has more. And the capitalists have the lion’s share of control over the economy.

So, if blame was to be assigned to the economy during the Carter years, it should be in the order of Capitalists, Congress, and then the President, contrary to popular myth and belief.

Glenn, one further note from my economics class notes: To the extent that individuals seek to manage an economy, it is an art form, not just a learned academic of economics. Intuition built upon strong academics and even stronger experience in the analysis of economic history, is often what defines good vs. poor economics managers like Fed Board members, Commerce Secretaries, and economic advisors to politicians.

Like great artists, they are a rare breed. And like great artists, a requirement is an acute knowledge of the limitations of one’s tools and medium, and the discipline to confine oneself to those. This is what Jimmy Carter lacked. His technocratic approach to economy appeared entirely logical to him at the time. But, as we all should know, logic and statistics do not guarantee arrival at the solution station.

womanmarine said: “Sorry, this can’t be blamed on the current congress.”

It most certainly can. The makeup of this current Congress is largely the same as that of the previous Congress’. Most of the same players. That is why, if we want different results, we must put different players into the Congress.

Vote Out Incumbents. It is the only tool given to lover’s of democracy who think their government’s performance stinks. Hence, the rise of Vote Out Incumbents Democracy.

ohrealy, no, he is touring the Far East, in the hopes of getting a picture of what growth and progress looks like.

Maybe he’ll eat something bad or choke on a pretzel again. I wonder if the Secret Service has to monitor his food intake, like an infant, to make sure he survives the rigors of chewing and swallowing. That was sarcasm.

David -

I agree - the guidance of the economy certainly is an art form. It cannot be a science, for much of it depends upon the perceptions of the very human masses that make up the economy.

Back in the early 70’s, I once read a fictional story about a man with a hot dog stand. He had the best hot dogs, reinvested some of his money back into better dogs, buns, signs, condiments…and he did really well. His son came home from college one day and said, “Dad, what are you doing? Don’t you know we’re in a recession?” So the man cut back on his expenses. He bought lower-quality dogs, buns, condiments, and advertised less. His business began to tank, and after a week he told his son, “You know, we really are in a recession.”

That’s only from memory and certainly not as well-illustrated as I read it, but you get the gist of it.

Take care (and vote! (for Obama, I hope)).

Gleen, what an apropos’ story of the hot dog vendor. In psychology, we call it a ‘self-fulfilling prophecy’.

This is what is happening with Congress. The American people distrust and dislike Congress, which lowers expectations of what citizens demand of their own Congresspersons, and when Congress fails, the citizens blame other Congresspersons, but not their own.

This curiosity of blaming other representatives over whose election they have no control, is another psychological phenomena, called ‘cognitive dissonance’. Cognitive dissonance posits that one will find it easier when confronting contradictory facts, to reject the facts that may throw a negative light on one’s own choices. (i.e., it has to be the other representatives, not mine, causing the dismal performance in Congress).

Hence, this perfect vicious cycle continues reelecting the vast majority of failed Congresspersons every 2 years and 6 years.

There are only 2 practical remedies for these voter psychological defense mechanisms. Education which supports voters self-respect in holding their own representatives responsible, and d.a.n’s astute observation that when times become unbearable and desperate, then, voters will reject their Congressional choices for office.

These two remedies, one very inexpensive and the other enormously expensive for voters, should be a no brainer. But, as your story reveals, when one’s beliefs are self-reinforcing, changing them is going to be next to impossible.