Third Party & Independents Archives

Encouraging isolationism: Americans and geography

Plenty of us have heard that over 60% of Americans aged 18-24 couldn’t find Iraq on a map of the Middle East (yes, a map of the Middle East… not even a map of the world) in a 2006 survey (that’s three years after the start of the war). I just took a look at that survey and found a few other interesting facts:

Plenty of us have heard that over 60% of Americans aged 18-24 couldn't find Iraq on a map of the Middle East (yes, a map of the Middle East... not even a map of the world) in a 2006 survey (that's three years after the start of the war). I just took a look at that survey and found a few other interesting facts:

* Only 50% think that map-reading skills are "absolutely essential"
* Despite that fact, 75% couldn't find Iran or Israel on the same Middle East map.
* 65% couldn't find the UK on a world map.
* 88% couldn't find Afghanistan on a map of Asia.
* Half of people couldn't find India or Japan on the Asian map
* 70% couldn't find North Korea, and only 37% knew that the North/South Korea border is more heavily fortified than the US/Mexico border and the China/Russia border (both of which are mostly barren).
* Only 35% knew about the huge earthquake in Pakistan, which had killed 70,000 people only a few months before the survey.
* 74% of people thought that English is a more common first language than Mandarin (which was picked by 18%).
* When asked to pick the country with a Muslim majority (between Indonesia, India, Armenia, and South Africa), 48% thought it was India (which is only 10% Muslim) and only 25% picked Indonesia (which is over 80% Muslim).
* More interestingly, people thought that the Mississippi's flow had something to do with Hurricane Katrina.

Apparently, we don't know anything about the world. This is why the rest of the world looks down on Americans... geography is no longer an important part of our school curricula. How do we expect to succeed through globalization if 90% of our youth don't even know where Afghanistan is?

Posted by Shan-ul-Hai at June 5, 2008 9:53 PM
Comment #254633

Pretty sad ain’t it?

The quality of education has been declining in the U.S.A. for several decades (just one of several abuses that didn’t all come about by mere coincidence).

A number of things have been deteriorating in the U.S.A. for several decades.

Also, while most voters polled give Congress approval ratings as low as 11%-to-18%, most voters repeatedly reward corrupt and irresponsible incumbent politicians with 85%-to-90% re-election rates.

That doesn’t make much sense either, does it?

In a voting nation, an educated electorate is paramount.
The voters will get their education one way or another.
Many painful lessons are already in the pipe-line.

At any rate, the voters have the government that the voters elect (and deserve).

Posted by: d.a.n at June 5, 2008 11:01 PM
Comment #254639
In a voting nation, an educated electorate is paramount.

And in a police state, a government-educated eloctorate is even more paramount.

Ooo, wait a sec…

Posted by: Rhinehold at June 6, 2008 12:13 AM
Comment #254641

I think this says less about schools than it says about family priorities.

If 50% of marriages in this country end in divorce, schools are not the problem.

Posted by: Rocky at June 6, 2008 12:39 AM
Comment #254644

So, you’re saying you agree with Dan Quayle?


BTW, our test scores in this country have plummetted since the establishment of the Department of Education. They were rising before that occurred.

Occam’s Razor should be the starting point for that discussion, shouldn’t it?

Posted by: Rhinehold at June 6, 2008 12:48 AM
Comment #254647

I Don’t blame the Schools or most of the can go to the poorest Areas in Africa or india or Asia and most of the rest of the world and see these wonderful kid’s dirt poor and only 1 set of clothes, and they have one thing in common they want to learn and better themselves and many of them only have one parent.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at June 6, 2008 1:21 AM
Comment #254648

20% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth. Nuff said.

Posted by: max at June 6, 2008 1:34 AM
Comment #254656

A wonderful example is someone who, when he was told about Sunnis and Shi’a, said, “I thought they were Muslim!”

That’s W - who had no clue about Sunni and Shi’a even though his dad led the first Gulf War.

And now the Republicans want to send up McCain, who ALSO made the mistake of linking Shi’a Iran with Sunni Al Qaeda.

But the real pity is that there are those who will read this post who will still think that Sunni and Shi’a are to Islam what Baptists and Methodists are the mainstream Christianity. They will neither understand the magnitude of their misconception nor will they feel the need to investigate it to remove the veil of ignorance from their eyes.

Posted by: Glenn Contrarian at June 6, 2008 4:30 AM
Comment #254660

Re geography

Maybe if we would teach it in school - as we used to - it would be a good thing. Schools have too many other mandates these days.


Do you really believe that the Iranians don’t sometimes work toward the same purposes as Al Qaeda? People do not sort themselves so cleanly. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Remember during the big religious wars in the west, Cardinal Richelieu supported Protestants, when he found it useful in some times and places and killed them in other times and places. He was not the only one.

I think it is very useful for us to know the variations of Islam, but they are not as strict as some people think. In Iraq today, there are still many places where Sunni and Shiia share mosques, marry each other and get along very well.

We in the west, with the active instigation of people who want to manipulate us, have now overcorrected.

It is much like the Nazis and the communists used to tell everybody they were opposites and could never get along.

Posted by: Jack at June 6, 2008 5:46 AM
Comment #254667

Only 26.5% of those students scheduled to graduate from High School in Detroit actually did. A New York area has a similar statistic. These are of course the worse of the lot. But, more than 1 million high school students in America this year failed to graduate as they were scheduled to. It has been estimated that more than half of American high school graduates learned substantially less than their counterparts in 46 other democratic modern nations.

Freedom to be stupid, unmotivated, and ignorant carries a very high price not just for the individual, but for the society as a whole. Our system is locally based, regionally influenced, and largely unstandardized nationally. This is the primary difference between America’s school systems and the other 45 nations whose rankings and end product are superior to ours.

There are no easy or quick solutions to America’s education problem. Education is woven throughout our cultural, economic, academic, religious, market and black market, and vocational institutions.

One of the great failures of America was to move toward universal suffrage without coinciding a move toward universal nationalized education. Functional democracy capable of meeting its objectives absolutely requires an educated electorate. Too many American politicians have viewed an educated electorate as a threat to incumbency, especially since the end of the 1960’s.

America needs to turn the corner on this sad chapter in our history if we are to secure a better, and not worse future, for our nation and our children and their children. But, that can and will only happen if rapidly increasing numbers of voters begin voting for challengers to office instead of incumbents with one of their main reasons for doing so being improved educational standing in our schools locally and nationally.

Black market street education belongs on the street, not in our schools. Religious education belongs in our churches, not in our schools. Political education, not civics education, belongs in the media and public forums, not in our schools. Private education belongs in private schools funded by private funds, with the public schools available to all providing a quality education which provides meaningful and productive lifework experience.

Let’s get back to common sense basics. Year round education is superior to 9 months education. Let’s do it. Quality teachers cost quality earnings. Let’s do it. Quality curriculi requires independent oversight and design. Let’s do it. Quality education requires a secure environment from home doorstep to classroom seat, and back again. Let’s do it.

Let us do it! The vast majority of Americans will back these efforts. Let us do it.

As I say to my 17 year old daughter frequently, growing up and moving ahead is not about feeling like it, it is about doing what you know you should do, whether you feel like it, or not. I tell her that is called discipline, and America is capable of it, it just doesn’t feel like exercising it.

Let us just do it. We know it is what we should do.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 6, 2008 8:12 AM
Comment #254671


BTW, our test scores in this country have plummetted since the establishment of the Department of Education. They were rising before that occurred.

What a patently dishonest statement.

By this reasoning , I see, you agree that the Fed has been a roaring success, since GDP has risen dramatically since the inception of the Fed.

Posted by: googlumpus at June 6, 2008 8:33 AM
Comment #254676

David, I moved to Houston in the seventies, having gone to school in Ohio my entire life.

I met a black preacher. He told me about the Houston black schools of the 40’s and 50’s. No books, Leadky one room shack. No paper, no pencils. Sometimes no teacher. The elder students would sometimes teach the younger ones.

While there are all kinds of issues with parenting, in a country with wealth so unevenly distributed, the standardization of curriculum has been deeply important to the increasing literacy rates in the US.

Some don’t know geograpy, some either do not know history, or choose to either ignore it or distort it for idealogy. I’m not sure which shows greater ignorance.

It’s never going to be easy to bring those raised in an illiterate culture up to cultures that cherish education. It will take uneven resources applied IN REVERSE to make that leap. The Mexican immigrants here and continuing to come, will not be leaving anytime soon. If America wants a future, she must spend more(meaning effort, not just money) on education in an effective and localized manner. Today we waste more on pursuing pot smokers and bad drivers than educating the disadvantaged.

Posted by: googlumpus at June 6, 2008 8:58 AM
Comment #254685

googlumpus, I generally agree. But, importing those with needs greater than our resources can carry, is not a solution. America must get objective self-interested control of her borders if she is to have any future at all.

That does not mean we need to halt all immigration. It means we need to regain control of our borders so that WE decide who comes in to our country and for what purposes, and we decide whether those coming in will be a net asset or liability to our nation and her future. We are not in control nor are we making any of these objective decisions at this moment in time.

Nothing besides education and rule of law could be more essential to the well being of our nation’s future.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 6, 2008 10:27 AM
Comment #254687
Functional democracy capable of meeting its objectives absolutely requires an educated electorate.
Americans are going to get their eduction one way or another.

Will it be the smart way, or the hard and painful way?

Unfortunately, I think it will be the hard and painful way.

The real victims are the children (who can not vote).

The truly culpable is the electorate, who gives do-nothing Congress 11%-to-18% approval ratings, but repeatedly rewards the corrupt and incompetent incumbent politicians with 85%-to-90% re-election rates (due to blind and partisan loyalties, apathy, complacency, ignorance, delusion, irrational fears and fear mongering, and laziness).

The solution is very simple, but very elusive.

It does not matter how simple a solution is if people refuse that solution … at least, until the status quo finally becomes too painful.

It will take a long time (if ever) to correct.
It took 3+ decades to get to this point, and voters are not likely to change until they are sufficiently motivated by the painful consequences of their negligence over the past 30+ years.

On the bright side, pain is a good teacher too, and the electorate’s education is in the pipe-line.

  • QUESTION: When will we finally see change better?
  • ANSWER: When the lack of it becomes too painful.

Perhaps enough voters will be less negligent when enough of the votes are jobless, homeless, and hungry?

At least that self-correction/self-preservation mechanism exists (if it occurs soon enough? ; there are no guarantees).

But we are not there yet.
For example, in the coming election, re-election rate for Congress will still remain at 85%-to-90%.
Some more Republicans will be ousted, but most voters are going to re-elect most Democrats (as if there was truly some vast difference).
Perhaps a few things will improve, but not nearly enough to avoid the painful consequences already in the pipe-line.
Unfortunately, the painful consequences already in the pipe-line are a lagging indicator, since the majority of voters ignore the signs until they are already (unavoidably) hammering most Americans.

When the 4-NOV-2008 election is over, the next president will still be saddled with the same do-nothing, corrupt, FOR-SALE, irresponsible Congress. Likewise with state and local governments. Voters are unhappy, but not yet unhappy enough to see that repeatedly rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians with perpetual re-election is the problem. Try repeatedly rewarding your children for bad behavior and observe what happens.

The solution is not that complicated, but the simple solution will remain extremely elusive until enough voters are educated by the painful consequences of their decades of negligence.

Unfortunately, it’s human nature to seek security, comfort, and prosperity with the least effort and pain. As a result, things are usually allowed to deteriorate until those things finally become too painful (even deadly in many cases).

Our problem is quite simply wide-spread moral and fiscal bankruptcy, and it’s not likely to change until it becomes too painful. And then it will still take a long time to correct 3+ decades of deterioration. But the sooner the better.

If voters think THEIR corrupt and irresponsible incumbent politicians are suddently going to straighten up and fly right, they are sadly mistaken. They only real solution is to do what voters were supposed to be doing all along. Stop repeatedly rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians with perpetual re-election.

And that’s probably what will happen eventually, as it did in 1933 (during the Great Depression) when enough voters were finally feeling enough pain to vote out 206 (of 531) incumbent politicians from Congress. Unfortuately, the voters waited too long, and most of the pain and misery was already unavoidable. There’s no reason to believe it will be that different the next time.

At any rate, the voters have the government that the voters elect (and deserve).

Posted by: d.a.n at June 6, 2008 10:37 AM
Comment #254688

Jack -

Concerning Iran and Al Qaeda - you are completely wrong. The Sunni, including Al Qaeda, see the Shi’a as a greater threat, as the real enemy.

Here’s Al Qaeda’s #2 (the REAL Al Qaeda, not the pretender group ‘Al Qaeda in Iraq’):

“”Whichever country that emerges victorious will find itself in an intensified and fierce battle [with al-Qaeda],” he continued.

Al-Zawahiri was referring to a recent blunder by the presumptive Republican nominee, Senator John McCain, who has claimed that Iranian operatives are “taking al-Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back” to Iraq.”

Your misconception that Al Qaeda will work side-by-side with the Shi’a simply shows a level of ignorance - and Jack, don’t take that as an insult. You’re not stupid, but (like most conservatives) you ARE ignorant of the depth of the hatred in the Sunni/Shi’a religious schism. Sure, they both hate us, and they both hate Zionist Israel (but not so much the Jew on the street (note the difference, Jack)), but they hate each other far more.

If you want a comparison with mainstream Christianity, then bear in mind that they each see the other NOT as, say, Catholics versus protestants, but as Christians versus antiChrists…and in their eyes, we who are not Sunni or Shi’a are evil, but more because of ignorance than of choice.

And THAT is Bush’s gravest mistake: he did NOT take an effort to know his enemy…and so embroiled us in another country’s religious civil war. All we can ever do there is spend blood and dollars to delay the inevitable bloodbath.

Posted by: Glenn Contrarian at June 6, 2008 11:13 AM
Comment #254692

There are many factors leading to a general “dumbing down” of the educational system in the U.S.

1.) The Department of Education. Unneeded. Allocate funds for education and ship those funds to the individual states to distribute. The states are much more aware of exactly where the funds are needed the most…not some bureaucrat in a windowless cubicle in some obscure corner of Washington, D.C.

2.) An upside down society. Why does even the most incompetent unnecessary member of society makes as much in a year as a teacher makes in their career? Example: A shortstop for a pro baseball team, who will never hit more than .200 and who will never win a Golden Glove makes a million dollars a year, while a teacher of geography in high school makes $28,000 a year. Now, who’s more important? Someone who is superflous to a functioning society or someone who molds and shapes the minds of our next generation? The same rule applies with other careers. Police, firefighters and EMS personnel make some of the lowest pay in our society, while rock stars, pro ball players and movie stars (those who are unnecessary to a functioning society) are paid astronomical salaries. Me? I’d like to have the person scraping me off the pavement to be highly paid and highly competent. I’d like the person that teaches the next generation to be the most competent teacher available. Remember: Those that are unnecessary to our society make the most, while the most necessary are paid a pittance compared to their importance.

3.) The importance society itself places on education. Sure, “a mind is a terrible thing to waste” and “you’ll never get anywhere without a good education” are great platitudes, but what about practical application? You can spout platitudes until you are blue in the face, but when a child would rather ignore the process of learning because they have no impetus…no stimulation from teachers who only go through the motions to get a paycheck, then you have lost. If the dicipline of learning is not instilled by teachers and parents, all the platitudes in the world are worthless and just “feel good” trash. When a child’s peer group looks at a school day as a way to spend 8 hours socializing and ignoring teachers, then something has to change. When a child’s “rights” to act up and distract other students and do whatever the hell they want (God forbid that the teacher would actually punish the child for such behavior…just give them mood altering drugs, right?) superceeds the teacher’s need to teach and impart knowledge, then something has to change. When a child can’t be “left behind” a grade because it might hurt his or her percious “self esteem”, then it’s time to change. When it is impossible to dismiss an imcompetent teacher, then something must change.

Certainly this is not a complete list and I am sure you people can add to it, but one must conclude something (or several “somethings”) is terribly wrong with our system of education.

Posted by: Jim T at June 6, 2008 11:46 AM
Comment #254704

Improving Education …

Other Solutions …

We’d better start soon (if it isn’t already too late).

Posted by: d.a.n at June 6, 2008 1:47 PM
Comment #254716

Al Qaeda does work with the Shia, or more precisely, their followers’ interests overlap. You do not have to love someone to work toward a common goal.

You are over correcting and taking in the propaganda at the same time. Why can’t you believe these guys can cooperate against a common enemy. Muslims on both sides cooperate with us “infidels” to kill other Muslims. Christians in the middle ages allied with Muslims to kill fellow Christians and the reverse. Sunni Iraqis are eagerly killing Sunni AQI and Shia Iraqis are starting to do the same with some of the Shia militias.

On the plus side, I personally know of Shia married to Sunni etc. In fact, I know a guy who has two wives, one of each. They just all went on vacation together to Jordan. Must have been interesting. And I have personally seen mosques that they share. In the recent operations in the south of Iraq, we had mostly Shia troops led by many Sunni officers and you must recall that during the Iraq-Iran war hundreds of thousands of Shia died fighting Shia Iran for their Sunni leader, Saddam Hussein, in an army run mostly by Sunni officers.

I also would not rely on Al-Zawahiri as a source of truth.

The Sunni-Shia difference is indeed important, but it is only crucial when some other interests come into play.

I actually wish it WAS stronger. Then we would never have to worry about any of these groups uniting to fight us. In fact, it would make a lot more logical sense for one or the other to be our good buddy to fight the other.

Whenever there is a disrupted civil society, people fall back on the elemental things like family (tribe) and religion. When the problem fades, so do commitments to these things.

Iraq is coming out of just such a time. I don’t believe most Muslims are so bigoted and narrow minded as your opinion would imply.

Posted by: Jack at June 6, 2008 3:10 PM
Comment #254726

Bait and switch, Shan-ul-Hai? Where’s the part about isolationism? That was what brought me in. Let’s butt out of all the places we can’t find on a map.

Nationalized education? Just pay to send the students to better schools at competitive prices.

The border? Why don’t you lazy people in Texas quit griping and actually do something useful about it, if you’re not satisfied with what the Federal government is doing.

Posted by: ohrealy at June 6, 2008 4:16 PM
Comment #254745
ohrealy wrote: The border? Why don’t you lazy people in Texas quit griping and actually do something useful about it, if you’re not satisfied with what the Federal government is doing.
ohrealy, Many of the MinuteMen (of the 12,000 nation-wide) are volunteering time and resources to patrol the borders.

However, they can only report trespassers.
Since there is a severe shortage of border patrol, millions of illegal aliens still get through annually.

Also, Article 4, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states that the federal government is supposed to protect states against invasion. Our borders are nearly wide-open. I’m not sure what state you live in, but over 1 million illegal aliens now live in my area (north quadrant of Texas).

What many non-border states fail to realize is the magnitude of the problem and the federal laws that prevent states from taking laws into their own hands.
When states and local governments try to enforce existing immigration laws, federal judges step in and thwart the process.
The federal government is not serious about border security or stopping illegal immigration.
Also, Texas has the longest border with Mexico of any state in the U.S. (about 830 miles; longer than all of the borders in CA., NM., and AZ. combined; about 690 miles).
If border security is the duty of only border states alone, then why be a part of the union? (i.e. if Article 4, Section 4 is meaningless).

Millions of illegal aliens are crossing the borders annually. The cost to U.S. tax payers (net losses) are estimated between $70 Billion and $338 Billion annually.

Hundreds of over-run hospitals are closing (60-to-84 in California alone).
Where I live (near Dallas), 70% of women giving birth at Parkland Memorial hospital in Dallas, TX., in only the first 3 months of year 2006 were illegal aliens (

But hospitals are not allowed to turn them away.
The federal government has an agenda to perpetuate massive immigration (legal or not).
The federal government does not want to stop immigration.
The U.S. population is growing by 5 million per year (mostly due to illegal immigration):

Non-border states don’t seem to understand the problem, but they will … give it time.
Importing the impoverished, less educated, and less skilled by the millions per year is not helping anything.
Not when 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare, 29% of all incarcertated in federal prisons are illegal aliens, and thousands of Americans are murdered and harmed annually by illegal aliens.

Compassion for people is all well and good, but where is the compassion for our own fellow Americans?

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers? 84 hospitals closed in California due to Illegal Aliens (

  • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources, because 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?

  • Where is the compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-paid, under-class (practically slavery) ?

  • Where is the compassion for displaced American workers and the outrage at the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens and tax payers the pay the high costs of incarceration, deportaiton, law enforcement, and trials (29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising? Are all illegal immigrants sexual predators or murderers? No, of course not. Most just see better opportunities offered by America. But, per capita, illegals commit a disproportionate number of violent crimes. We also shouldn’t fail to mention their contribution to illegal drug and gun trafficking, adding to America’s crime problem.

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been?

  • Where is the compassion for the people murdered every day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period (in only 3 states: TX., AZ., and CA.), with an average arrest rate of 13 arrests per illegal alien); 5992 homicides;?

  • Where is the compassion for all of the people that do not want to see a repeat of 11-Sep-2001, which was perpetrated by several illegal aliens; 18 of the 19 terrorist hijackers on 11-SEP-2001 possessed state-issued and/or counterfeit drivers’ licenses or ID cards and ALL 19 had obtained Social Security numbers (some real, some fake). Those terrorists very simply tapped into an enormous market for fraudulent documents that exists because 12+ million people have successfully breached our borders and now reside here illegally. Their presence has spawned widespread document and identity fraud that threatens our ability to distinguish illegal aliens from U.S. citizens and legal foreign residents. Yet, some politicians (such as Barack Obama) wants to give drivers’ licenses to illegal aliens?

  • Where is the compassion or all the victims in South Carolina ( which had the highest rate of violent crime (excluding D.C.) of any state in the U.S. and it is partly due to crime by illegal aliens. In fact, South Carolina is submitting a Constitutional amendment with regard to illegal immigration (which denies citizenship to offspring of an illegal alien).

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion to $338 Billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

  • Where is the compassion for the 2.3 million displaced American workers?

  • Where is the compassion for all of the thousands of homicide victims ? (estimated 3.6 to 12 or more homicides per day (the number keeps rising)!). Even if the lowest estimate (3.6) is used, the rate is twice the norm. If it is 12 homicides per day, that is 6.7 times more homicides.

  • Deputy Brandon “Brandy” Winfield, 29, of the Marion County, Ohio, sheriff’s department, was murdered Oct. 17, 2004. Winfield was on routine patrol when he stopped to assist what he thought was a stranded motorist. Winfield later was found shot in the head in his vehicle, which had hit a guard rail and flipped into a ravine. Both of those charges in the crime were illegal aliens.

  • Detective Hugo Arango, 24, of the Doroville, Ga., police department, was murdered May 13, 2000. Arango was shot and killed after having been flagged down by a club patron who indicated that some men had been breaking into cars outside of a nightclub. Detective Arango located three suspects and detained them. As he searched for weapons, Bautista Ramirez, an illegal alien from Mexico, shot Arango four times. The first shot took off one of his fingers, the second went through his thigh. As Arango lay on the ground helpless, Ramirez intentionally fired one round through Arango’s badge, and then executed him with a shot to his head that severed his brain stem.

  • National Park Service ranger Kristopher “Kriss” Eggle, 28, was murdered Aug. 9, 2002. Ranger Eggle was shot and killed in the line of duty at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument while pursuing members of a drug cartel hit squad which fled into the U.S. after committing a string of murders in Mexico.
    Deputy Saul Gallegos

  • Deputy Saul Gallegos, 35, of the Chelan County, Wash., sheriff’s department was murdered June 26, 2003. Gallegos was shot and killed after stopping a vehicle in a routine traffic stop. Jose Sanchez-Guillen, 22, who had been deported three times to Mexico, was found guilty of aggravated first-degree murder.
    Deputy Sheriff David March

  • Deputy Sheriff David March, 33, of the Los Angeles County sheriff’s department, was murdered April 29, 2002. March was on routine patrol when he made a traffic stop. The driver, Armando Garcia, shot March in the chest and the head – execution style. Garcia had been deported three times, had a long history of drug charges, violent crimes and weapons charges. The illegal alien from Mexico was already wanted for two attempted murders.

  • Officer Tony Zeppetella, 27, of the Oceanside, Calif., police department, was murdered June 13, 2003. Zeppetella stopped Adrien George Camacho for a traffic violation. Camacho pulled out a gun and shot the officer. Camacho then pistol-whipped the injured officer before shooting him again, killing him with the officer’s own gun. Camacho is an illegal alien and gang member from Mexico with a criminal history that includes five previous felony convictions and several deportations.

  • A Huntsville, Ala., police officer, Daniel Howard Golden, 27, was shot multiple times by Benito Albarran, 31, an illegal immigrant in August 2005.

  • In Denver, Raul Gomez-Garcia, another illegal alien charged with shooting two police officers at a crowded party where both the gunmen’s wife and 2-year-old daughter were seated, was convicted last week.

  • Officer Sheila Herring was lost to a bullet from an illegal alien in an early morning altercation at a Norfolk bar on January 16. The accused man, Mario Roberto Keen, a citizen of Jamaica, had reportedly shot a man in the bar after which the police were called. When several officers arrived, Keen opened fire and shot Officer Herring who died later in surgery. Keen was shot and killed at the scene. He had been sentenced to five years in prison in 1990 for selling cocaine and was later deported. Keen attempted to re-enter the United States in New York in 1997, but was reportedly barred from entering. It is not known when Keen succeeded in entering the U.S. But back to Sheila Herring: from all accounts she was an excellent police officer and loved her job. She had been a cop in Detroit for ten years before moving to Virginia. She was 39 and had an 18-year-old daughter.

  • Phoenix Police Officer Robert Sitek was shot four times 4/12/03 during a traffic stop altercation with an illegal alien that became violent. Sitek and his partner David Thwing were on routine patrol when a red truck cut off their squad car, and when the officers stopped the truck the driver began shooting. Officer Sitek was in cardiac arrest by the time he reached the hospital and lost a considerable amount of blood. Shooter Francisco A. Gallardo was a “Mexican citizen who had recently completed a seven-year prison term for aggravated assault.” He had been deported after his release but had returned to Arizona. Gallardo was shot and killed as he tried to escape by Officer Thwing. Medical Update, June 5, 2003: Officer Rob Sitek has had a slow but gradually successful recovery from injuries that surely would have been fatal to most. At nearly two months after the shooting, he has pulled out of a three-week coma, is still unable to walk but is determined to do so and eventually return to work.

  • Officer Marc Atkinson was just 28 when he was shot and killed in a 1999 amGeorge Bush (43) by an illegal alien from Mexico. Officer Atkinson was a five-year veteran of the Phoenix Police Force, and was survived by his wife Karen, infant son and two siblings. The killer, Felipe Petrona-Cabanas, had around a pound of cocaine in his car when apprehended with two other Mexican nationals. The three came from a farming area in the state of Guerrero near Acapulco, and said they came to the United States to work but couldn’t find any. A notable detail in the case is how an armed citizen, Rory Vertigan, came to the aid of the shot officer and helped apprehend the Mexicans, who certainly would have escaped over the border if they could have.

  • Officer Kenneth Collings of the Phoenix Police Department was killed in 1988 during the arrest of two robbery suspects at a local bank when one opened fire. One of the robbers, Ismael Conde, was quickly arrested but the other, Rudy Romero, escaped to Mexico. Romero was caught in southern Mexico in 2000 and brought back to stand trial. The Arizona Attorney General’s Office credits help from the Phoenix Police Department, the FBI, the Attorney General for the Republic of Mexico, and the Mexican Federal Agency of Investigation — a rare and welcome act of extradition from our southern neighbor. In March 2003, Romero was sentenced to 98 years in state prison.

  • Officer Hugo Arango of the Doraville (Georgia) Police Department was murdered by an illegal alien Bautista Ramirez May 13, 2000 — there’s no dispute about those facts. But the June trial has not been a pretty picture as admitted cop-killer Ramirez pleaded self-defense because he thought Officer Arango would kill him otherwise, saying “if I don’t kill him, he’s going to kill me.” The prosecution contends that Ramirez shot the police officer simply to avoid arrest. The original altercation occurred outside a nightclub, when Arango approached Ramirez, then 19, and his cousin. Ramirez was an illegal alien from Mexico, and possessed a concealed gun. Also injured by Ramirez was nightclub manager David Contreras, who survived being shot in the face.

  • Oceanside Officer Tony Zeppetella was a rookie cop, who had been in the department just over a year, when he was shot three times and killed in a credit union parking lot by Adrian George Camacho, a Mexican illegal alien with a long criminal record. Officer Zeppetella was married with a six-month-old child. He was born in Whittier and enlisted in the navy after he graduated from high school in 1994. Tony Zeppetella was 27 years old when he was killed. The accused killer had been deported several times, and his criminal record lists drugs, illegal firearms possession and gang activity. Camacho fled the scene of the shooting to the home of his ex-wife’s parents, and was taken into custody only after a four-hour standoff.

  • Officer Will Seuis a motorcycle patrolman in Oakland, California, was killed on his ride home by an illegal alien. Fortunately some witnesses on the highway immediately phoned 911 and the accused hit-and-run driver, Carlos Mares, was quickly caught. Mares was driving his truck with a commercial load. A sixteen-year veteran of the Police Department, Officer Seuis was remembered at his funeral as a hard-working cop who had received 33 letters of appreciation from citizens, including one from a motorist he had ticketed. He had been in traffic enforcement since 1998, and was a member of the department’s 20-member precision motorcycle drill team. Seuis left a wife, Michelle, and two daughters. The accused killer has a history of traffic convictions. It’s curious that illegal alien Mares has his own business, Mares Trucking.

  • Lopez, 44 , is accused of murdering a 17-year sheriff’s department veteran (Frank Fibiano) while high on cocaine. Lopez’s history with the law dates back to 2001, when he was arrested in Utah for lewd and lascivious conduct.In 2003, he was arrested in Texas on a gun charge. In 2003, Lopez was picked-up in Missouri for OWI. In 2004, Kenosha Police arrested him on charges of domestic battery, disorderly conduct, bail jumping. One of the other inmates stated that Lopez stated: “I’ll kill another one of you guys, give me a chance and I’ll kill another one of you guys.”

  • Officer Rodney Johnson (Houston, Tx) was shot four times in the head while in handcuffs in the back seat of his patrol car, by illegal immigrant, Juan Leonardo Quintero. Quintero had already been deported in 2004 after a conviction for indecency with a child. Houston Police Department stated that the “immigration problem that is only getting worse”. Johnson received a commendation for valor for pulling several children from a burning building. He leaves behind a wife who is also a police officer and their five children.

  • Phoenix Police Officer Nick Erfle Murdered by Illegal Alien. Nick Erfle survived cancer twice, but he has not survived our government’s absolutely unacceptable refusal to defend the country from foreign invasion. When Erfle confronted a jaywalker in Phoenix yesterday, he was shot in the face and killed. The jaywalker was Erik Jovani Martinez, one of millions of illegal immigrants who infest this country with the complicity of the gang of parasitical vampires that calls itself our government.

  • On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas, Texas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S. These are crimes that should have never happened.

Hmmmm … I wonder how the thousands of victims and survivors of crimes by illegal aliens would feel about being told:
    ohrealy wrote: Why don’t you lazy people in Texas quit griping and actually do something useful about it, if you’re not satisfied with what the Federal government is doing.
However, you may have a valid argument (partially)?

If enough Americans are fed up with illegal immigration (which appears to be the case, based on most polls), then perhaps the voters should reconsider the wisdom of repeatedly rewarding irresponsible and corrupt incumbent politicians that despicably pit Americand citizens and illegal aliens against each other for profits and votes?

Of course, many of those victims above are minors and not of voting age.
So those younger victims are not culpable in any way; they are the true victims of someone else’s negligence; the negligence to enforce existing laws and prevent crimes that should have never occurred.
But perhaps you have a point with regard to voters?
The voters are culpable, aren’t they?
Being from Texas, I was initially offended by your comment.
But if voters don’t like the way their politicians despicably pit Americans and illegal aliens against each other for profits and votes, why do those voters repeatedly reward those incumbent politicians with perpetual re-election?

At any rate, the voters have the government that the voters elect (and deserve).

Posted by: d.a.n at June 6, 2008 5:46 PM
Comment #254750


Thanks for the links. I have started reading them and hope to complete them tomorrow. I have to say that I disagree with only some of the solutions you offer, we have debated one of them, but mostly because I think they need to go just a little further. Your group defines the problems extremely well from what I am reading, and IMHO that gives us a little common ground. Acres of it. I know that I have fundamental differences in philosophy with you, but I am becoming intrigued with our similarities. I hope to be able to do to do a little research tomorrow and finnish my thoughts, but thanks.

Posted by: submarinesforever at June 6, 2008 6:29 PM
Comment #254752


Thanks. I’m eager to see your comments.

Posted by: d.a.n at June 6, 2008 6:47 PM
Comment #254757

d.a.n., How about using non-lethal force? Stick them in some foam and then call the border patrol.

Posted by: ohrealy at June 6, 2008 7:42 PM
Comment #254765

Yes, non-lethal force (by all means).

I don’t want people merely looking for work to be harmed.

The real villans in this situation are the despicable incumbent politicians that ignore existing laws, and pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other for profits and votes.

Voters should also use peaceful force to vote out as many incumbent politicians as possible.

Or the voters can wait until they are finally motivated by the painful consequences of failing to use that peaceful force, as in the Great Depression, when voters ousted 206 Congress persons.

At any rate, the voters have the government that the voters elect (and deserve).

Posted by: d.a.n at June 6, 2008 9:45 PM
Comment #254805

I can’t for the life of me understand why people are complaining about these statistics. They are wonderful news, proof positive that our liberal/conservative government has achieved everything it has wanted to do over the last five decades. The conservative/liberal government had a goal of making the American people the stupidest people on earth and they have been remarkably successful. Even the communists have not done as well.

Let’s all go to the polls in November and vote for our favorite liberal or conservative. We need to show our appreciation and reward them for the remarkable job they have done.

Posted by: jlw at June 7, 2008 11:47 AM
Comment #254951

jlw, I can’t tell if your comment is facetious or sarcastic, but great use of ironicalism :-)

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 8, 2008 3:16 PM
Comment #254959

DRRemer, according to the Onion, 70 % of all praise is sarcastic:

Posted by: ohrealy at June 8, 2008 5:59 PM
Comment #255027


My apologies to you, sir, for being able to post again over the weekend. I got a call in the middle of the night and had to work both days. I hope to finnish up my research this week, but I am really considering supporting if not joining you.

Posted by: submarinesforever at June 9, 2008 4:55 PM
Comment #255034


Thanks! I’m eager to read your comments.

Posted by: d.a.n at June 9, 2008 5:53 PM
Comment #255062

I have no problem with seizing assets, and jailing those who hire illegals. I have no problem with arresting and deporting illegals.

That will not entirely stop illegal immigration.

Building a wall will be exorbitantly expensive to both build and maintain, and ultimately will not stem the flow of people seeking a better, safer life. An ocean hasn’t stopped Cubans, Irish or Chinese from illegally immigrating. An ocean is much more daunting than any wall.

With time, the wall will be forgotten, if ever completed. Walls historically do not work. Not for the Chinese, the Middle age European strongholds, The French, or the East Germans. Borders are fictions created by kings for the profit of a few. Reality and the mass population don’t recognize political borders. Nations exist because of cultural differences and natural borders. Nations fold and reform along new cultural lines. Texas has always been a part of Mexico. It always will be connected to Mexico.

Addressing trade issues with Mexico, stopping the insane drug wars by making drugs a medical, rather than moral issue (the way we did with alcohol in the 40’s, thus taking away the profit for gangsters) will go a long way towards stabilizing Mexico. That is the only sane way to stem the illegal flow.

Posted by: googlumpugus at June 9, 2008 9:06 PM
Comment #255099

A border barrier alone is not enough.
Border and port security alone is not enough.
Stopping illegal employers alone is not enough.
All three are required (by law; see Article 4, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution).
We can’t simply ignore the problem.
We can’t simply ignore this.
We can’t simply ignore the annual net losses (estimated at $70 Billion to $338 Billion per year).

Stopping the illegal employers is the most important step. However, not everyone crossing the border is merely looking for a job.

The Solution

Posted by: d.a.n at June 10, 2008 9:30 AM
Comment #255589

Smack dab on right, d.a.n. It will require all three and more. But, hey, who is concerned about such a trivial matter as sovereignty or aggression across our Southern Borders when Iraqis are fighting Iraqis in Iraq, eh? Where are your priorities, d.a.n?

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 14, 2008 6:45 PM
Comment #255590

goo, you miss the point entirely. We live in an imperfect world, and thus, erecting a barrier, enforcing laws, and patrolling that barrier will not stop every illegal immigrant, true enough.


By your argument, we should do away with the entire legal and law enforcement system because some people will still commit crimes. Your logic fails, goo. It simply fails.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 14, 2008 6:48 PM
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