Third Party & Independents: Archives

David,

You wrote…

“On the other hand, reform in government usually comes in increments, and without incremental steps, reform doesn’t come at all.”

Do you know WHY reform comes in “baby steps”?

The people who will never be anything BUT unethical have to find the loopholes to exploit before we move on to the NEXT piece of reform legislation…which will probably be legislation to close the loopholes of the PREVIOUS legislation.

They sure know how to run the electorate around in circles, don’t they?

David,

You mustn’t forget “Dollar Bill Jefferson”:

http://tinyurl.com/2zbn79

This “ethics overhaul” is really too little too late, but I suppose it’s better than nothing.

I alluded to Jack today on another thread the intent of “moral turpitude”. As a government employee for about ten years in the 70’s and 80’s they were serious about the “moral turpitude” clause.

What is moral turpitude? “A phrase used in criminal law to describe conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty, or good morals.”

“Crimes involving moral turpitude have an inherent quality of baseness, vileness, or depravity with respect to a person’s duty to another or to society in general.”

“Dollar Bill” should have stepped down! He’s been indicted. Pelosi’s reluctance to eject Jefferson is no better than Bush’s reluctance to can Gonzales. It’s clear to me that our elected officials, and their appointees, somehow believe they belong to a seperate class that is somehow exempt from the rules most of us must live by.

I just don’t know how to fix it!

Pelosi’s reluctance to eject Jefferson

Forget eject, didn’t she attempt to put him on the House Homeland Security Committee? Didn’t he get a standing ovation from Democrats when he returned to serve after his re-election?

I think the Tillman investigation merits mention as well. This thread is, after all, about a tough week for the corrupted. I realize this is coming from a different area within the administration, and they had Rummy on the stand today questioning him. He hasn’t lost one bit of slime since he fell out of favor either.

Ah yes, the ‘the administration had Tillman killed to silence his opposition to the Iraq war’ investigation? Or just the ‘the administration covered the investigation up for two weeks for some unknown reason’ investigation?

How right ya are David, Congress is covering their collective butts. But at least some sort of reform package was passed. But how well will they enforce it? Will it be one of them for the minority party only type of things? Or will the majority party enforce it on themselves as well?
I like the idea of lawmakers convicted of perjury, and bribery losing their pensions. But they need to lose them for other convictions as well.
Personally I don’t think it will pass the Senate because it eliminates their ‘secret holds’. But it’s a start.

Jim T

They sure know how to run the electorate around in circles, don’t they?

They sure as hell do. But the electorate is getting wise to them. That’s why they’re scrambling to cover their butts.

KansasDem

“Dollar Bill” should have stepped down! He’s been indicted. Pelosi’s reluctance to eject Jefferson is no better than Bush’s reluctance to can Gonzales.

Good to hear a Democrat admit it when the leadership in their party is screwing the pouch.
Jefferson should be thrown out. And Pelosi hasn’t made a move to get him out. Bet if he was a Republican the house would’ve never let him in the door.
And yes, Bush needs to do something about Gonzales too.

It’s clear to me that our elected officials, and their appointees, somehow believe they belong to a seperate class that is somehow exempt from the rules most of us must live by.

Glad to see ya waking up to facts :) Our elected officials believe they’re exempt from the same rules the rest of us have to live by because the electorate hasn’t held them accountable in more years than I care to remember.

I just don’t know how to fix it!

Easy, vote against irresponsible incumbents. Even if they are from your party and you have to cross party lines to do it.
If enough voters started doing it, our politicians would sit up and take notice in a big hurry.

Ron Brown, I lean toward your assessment that it may not pass the Senate, not intact, anyway. Perhaps a watered down version of this watered down attempt at ending the corruption and bribery and blackmail which have become the daily bread of oh so many in our elected government.

And for all the praise heaped upon unelected government workers, I have to suspect many of them too, violate their oaths by turning a blind eye to the violations of their superiors and elected officials. This kind of rampant corruption, is like an ice berg, with 3/4 of its mass unseen below the water line. We are witness only the top 1/4. And the employees are the masking waters. We can empathize with their conundrum, for to become a whistle blower is to likely lose one’s career in government.

But, to be sure, to the extent that voter’s protect and defend the wrong doers of their own party as loyal opposition so often does, so too will corrupt politicians and their employees play the “got your back” gang plan.

It will take much more than this pitifully weak legislation to get down to the roots of the problem, the voters themselves who regard party politics as an extension of NFL team loyalty spectator sport, and not the somber, serious, and often deadly responsibility that running a government actually is.

Most Americans would regard the ancient Romans as pagans and barbarians for their cultural ways. But, what does it say of a people who permit themselves to be ruled by a government which operates on the motto, “Make War, Not Love” ?

Jim T, there is much truth in what you say.

Kansas Dem, all good points, thanks.

Sandra, your comment implies an important point. Are these heads of our government departments worth keeping if they are so unaware of what transpires beneath them in the way of wrong doing?

The standard canned replies of “I don’t recollect” or, “I wasn’t aware”, have become shorthand for I am incompetent and should be removed, that’s plain to see, but, here’s the thing, who’s going to remove me?

David R. Remer,

The really disgusting part is that our elected officials and their appointees are so damn arrogant. Even if they are suspended pending the outcome of legal proceedings it’s generally “suspended with pay”.

That happens nowhere else but at the absolute top end of a large corporation and that’s their money to do with as they please. A hardware salesman just gets canned if his name shows up in the legal columns of the local newspaper. If they’re later found innocent they may be able to get their job back but the only possibility of recovering lost wages or other expenses is through a lawsuit against your accuser.

Who made our elected officials and their appointees into an aristocracy? They did and we let them! It’s disgusting! As the true employers of our government officials we must stay on their butts constantly.

“Didn’t he get a standing ovation from Democrats when he returned to serve after his re-election?”

Rhinehold,

I’m not aware of that but it wouldn’t surprise me. Their seems to be an aristocratic environment surrounding our elected officials and I don’t like it. But still the Democratic party is the best fit for me, that hardly means I agree with everything every Democrat does.

So is the problem Jefferson or the people who re-elected him after the FBI raid? Or both?

Both!

j2t2 and Kansas Dem, the problem is the abject failure of our legal system to fulfill a person’s right to a speedy and fair trial. Jefferson is innocent until proven guilty. But, what has happened to this investigation? Why has the indictment not been made? Why has the trial not already taken place?

There is something that does not ring true about this whole case. With a Republican Dep’t. of Justice, what is it about that video tape situation and money in the freezer that prevents A.G. Gonzales from prosecuting him?

This unanswered question gives me pause in being too hasty to judge Jefferson’s case. Something here no longer smells like guilt, but, more like entrapment, now that would be exposed if the case goes to trial. Why else has prosecution not proceeded?

David, Bigger fish in the net?

j2t2, certainly a possibility. But, delaying is also costing them politically in the interim. Public opinion of the GOP is eroding fast, and if they don’t stop the bleeding, the GOP life blood will have been drained by the time they do get bigger fish. Which casts doubt on Rove’s political calculus today, as compared to the pre-2004 election period.

David

Most Americans would regard the ancient Romans as pagans and barbarians for their cultural ways. But, what does it say of a people who permit themselves to be ruled by a government which operates on the motto, “Make War, Not Love” ?

Could it be we’re getting as bad as the Romans?
As much as I hate it, there are times that war is necessary. I believe that Afghanistan was necessary. Iraq might have. Bit somehow I don’t think it was a pressing issue except in Bush’s mind. I know I never gave Iraq much thought until we went over their and took Saddam out. And I doubt very much that most other Americans were all that bothered by him.

Your right, it will take a whole heap more than this piece of pitiful bill to get any real true reform up there in DC. But if we can just get them started maybe it will snowball into some true reform. Then again, I just might be doing some wishful thinking. At least as long as we have the bunch that’s up there right now.

j2t2
So is the problem Jefferson or the people who re-elected him after the FBI raid? Or both?

The problem is Jefferson, the folks that reelected him, and the House for letting him back in.
Though I do have to agree with David that something is starting to smell fishy about the whole thing. Like he asked. Why aint the Republican administration and the Republicans in general all over him? Are they afraid of something? If so what?
If this is a legitimate case they’re missing some really good political hay here.

Good Sidney Blumenthal article in Salon talking about Bushco corruption, and how heavily all the players must count upon each other.

The Three Stooges
The president won’t fire Alberto Gonzales. He needs him to protect White House secrets, including the scheming roles of Cheney and Rove.

Couple of quotes from the article:

Omertà (or a code of silence) has become the final bond holding the Bush administration together. Honesty is dishonorable; silence is manly; penitence is weakness. Loyalty trumps law. Protecting higher-ups is patriotism. Stonewalling is idealism. Telling the truth is informing. Cooperation with investigators is cowardice; breaking the code is betrayal. Once the code is shattered, however, no one can be trusted and the entire edifice crumbles.

On Wednesday, Bush prepared to invoke executive privilege to protect his senior political aide, Karl Rove, and Rove’s deputy, J. Scott Jennings, from testifying before Congress on the firing of the U.S. attorneys. Bush has already covered his chief of staff, Josh Bolten, and former counsel Harriet Miers with executive privilege to prevent their testimony. The House Judiciary Committee responded by citing both for contempt of Congress, which requires action by the U.S. attorney of the District of Columbia. But the Justice Department has declared that it will thwart that process, in effect rendering the nation’s system of justice a political arm of the executive.

Bush has steadfastly refused to fire Attorney General Gonzales, even though Gonzales’ former chief of staff, Kyle Sampson, directly contradicted Gonzales’ testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee that he knew nothing about the purge of U.S. attorneys and by documentation that Gonzales’ claim that they were dismissed for “performance” was a politically contrived excuse. In protecting Gonzales, Bush is shielding the true author of the purge — Rove, who informed and received the approval of Bush himself.

David:
“This unanswered question gives me pause in being too hasty to judge Jefferson’s case. Something here no longer smells like guilt, but, more like entrapment, now that would be exposed if the case goes to trial. Why else has prosecution not proceeded?”

Ron:
“Though I do have to agree with David that something is starting to smell fishy about the whole thing. Like he asked. Why aint the Republican administration and the Republicans in general all over him? Are they afraid of something? If so what?
If this is a legitimate case they’re missing some really good political hay here.”

I agree with you two. There is something very suspicious and odd about the fact that nothing has happened with Jefferson’s prosecution. With the GOP swimming in their own scandals, why on earth would they leave an incidence of Democratic corruption just dangling this way?

Perhaps its just a case of timing. Maybe the repubs are waiting until mid 08 to strike. Seems like it would be more advantagous politically then than now.

j2t2
Ya could be right. But it seems to me that they’d want to take a little heat off them now and go after Jefferson now.
We’ll see come 08.

OUR NATION IS IN A DOWNWARD SPIRAL THAT WILL NOT STOP UNTIL THE VOTERS MAKE IT STOP BY UTILIZING THEIR VOTING POWER. OUR NATIONS POLITICIANS AND LEADERS HAVE PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT THEY WILL NOT POLICE THEMSELVES. BY JOINING TOGETHER TO TAKE OUR RIGHTFUL PLACE,AS AN
EQUAL COMPONENT TO THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES IN OUR POLITICAL PROCESS, WE CAN FORCE CHANGE. IN FACT, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT OUR POLITICIANS AND POLITICAL LEADERS WILL TAKE NOTICE. THE NONSENSE WILL CONTINUE UNTIL OUR NATIONS POLITICIANS LITERALLY FEAR THE VOTERS