February 26, 2007
America !
She was born much as a child is born, bloodied, loved, cut from her bonds, but dependent. Her birth came with a hope, a vision, and a promise, marked so eloquently in her Declaration of Independence, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
As the Declaration states in the very next sentences, as if to anticipate the loathsome state of government without guidance or structure, and freedom without responsibility:
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
While this paragraph was written with the British Government in mind, it was nonetheless, also a prescription for the people of America should the government of their own design fail to "effect their Safety and Happiness".
We have stood dumbstruck witness to the events of September 11, 2001, which should not have been permitted to happen, given the billions of taxpayer dollars spent to that date on national defense and "intelligence".
We have looked on with horror at the desperate pleas of thousands atop roofs as bloated bodies floated past in the streets of New Orleans. A direct result of a failure in government programs to design, build, and maintain levees to protect those tearfully unfortunate American citizens of New Orleans.
We now numbingly count the casualties and deaths of Americans sent to rebuild another nation torn asunder, divided, and reeking of the death of countless 10's of thousands of Iraqi men, women, and children, made wanton, in their abandonment of all civility, for a piece of revenge.
Clearly, America's government is not fulfilling its obligations and responsibilities in very fundamental ways.
America has always had enemies. From the indigenous Americans who claimed home to this land centuries before the Mayflower, to Osama bin Laden, America has always lived in a world with opponents. Chief among the duties and responsibilities of government expected and demanded by the American people, and her founding documents, are safety and freedom within her borders. Nowhere in our seminal documents can be found the words, "safety or freedom", or the notion of more of one at the expense of the other. When the words Safety and Happiness are quoted above, one need no degree from university to recognize that inherent in the definition of Happiness is freedom. For what person or animal caged, mastered, or fearful can lay claim to happiness?
America has made slow, but inexorable progress, in her march toward racial freedom for all her citizens. In a scant 200 years she matured to adolescence capable of the reason and capacity to view another's plight as if standing in their shoes, and asking: "what if that were me?" For such a young nation, given the great civilizations of the past much longer lived, whose demise never witnessed the end of slavery and subjugation of their people, America has proven to be in this regard at least, an apt student of life and history.
America has made great strides toward her ideals of acknowledging that all persons are created equal with certain unalienable rights. But acknowledgment and assurance are very different. America acknowledges, but, does not yet assure, that justice, equal opportunity, and equal treatment in the eyes of the law are observed.
America routinely imprisons innocent persons, and almost as routinely today, to her credit, liberates some of them with DNA evidence. American law enforcement still profiles ethnic citizens for unequal treatment. The American of Arab descent is rapidly taking on the traditional role of 'nigger' for profiling and unequal treatment.
Do our soldiers consciously abdicate claims to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness when they join our military? They do in practice regarding life and liberty. But, is it a conscious choice? Soldiers unarguably abdicate claims to their life and liberty, for there is no occupation in America that is more dangerous today and curtails freedom of expression or freedom of choice in one's daily affairs more than in our military. Many a soldier have said with full conscious awareness that their pursuit of happiness entails protecting and defending their America and their loved ones.
What is a soldier's obligation however, when their Congress, the representatives of the American people, disapprove of the conduct of war as defined and executed by the President and Commander in Chief? What is a soldier's obligation when their mission bears no resemblance to protecting and defending the United States, but, instead becomes a mission of protecting and defending a foreign nation and its Constitution? These are questions for a mature nation, not an adolescent nation still trying to find its way in the world. Why is America acting the role of adolescent, still defining the problems and challenges before it, instead of assuming responsibility for solutions to them?
The answer to that question and a vast host of other, seemingly inexplicable actions by our nation and her people, lie in her people's education. America's education of her people is by nearly every measure, wholly inadequate to support a democratic republic of informed choice. Most Americans could not tell you with certainty whether the words "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" occur in the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, or the Articles of Confederation. The majority of Americans have never read the U.S. Constitution nor the entirety of the Declaration of Independence as adults.
America's education system has never been what it should have been, and should be. There is a core of disciplines that are vital to the national interest of America which have never received the attention, focus, and expertise in delivery, our nation requires. Those disciplines are civics, history, and literature. Much attention is being paid to math and science these days and tremendous efforts are made to innovate and progress in these disciplines to attract student attention and motivation toward math and science. And this is good, for America's future and competitive role in the global market depends very much on the success of these efforts.
On the other hand, civics, history, and literature are language based disciplines absolutely essential to our nation's future. In the past, everything from rote memorization to Spelling Bees were implemented to try to improve student's development of language arts. But, language development is only the prerequisite, the qualifying capacity, the doorway to cognitive agility in the areas of civics, history, and the literature of great human ideas. Most regrettably, our educational systems have focused intently on reading and writing in language development as the end, and goal of education. It is not, nor should it ever have been.
Reading and writing are but the tools that allow students to grasp the reward that awaits them, an understanding and personally defensible view on topics of government, society, and the great ideas of our past and present. For this understanding permits students to become masters of their own, and their nation's future.
In a democratic republic, there is no more monumental decision that a citizen will make than whether or not to vote, and how that vote should be cast. The future of every American, the future of our nation, and the future of the world literally depends upon this most monumental of all decisions any student or citizen will ever make in their lifetime.
And yet, at no time in America's history have educational systems of all of its states and counties ever, at one time, prepared its students for that decision, in any way that could be considered adequate. Recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is NOT civics education. It is mental conditioning to obey and not question. Is it any wonder then, that half or more of voters obey their Party's directive to vote as they are told, without question, without examination, without critical evaluation, and without historical reference or knowledge of the import of that vote?
Are American students aware that our Declaration of Independence stipulates that it is their Right and obligation to alter or, overthrow their own government should that government fail to provide for their Safety and Happiness? Ask your student if the Declaration of Independence says government should provide the conditions necessary for the people's Safety and Happiness? You may be shocked at the response. Then ask them if the events of 9/11, our government's response to Katrina, and the Iraq War demonstrate that our government has provided for the people's safety and happiness?
Our politicians have a vested interest in insuring the voters never ask such questions of themselves or elected officials. Is it not true, that the ultimate threat to a politician's career and reelection is an intelligent, educated, and an informed voter, times 51%? Is there a connection then, between politicians who control the budgets for schools, and the abysmally low salaries teachers are asked to live on compared to comparably educated professionals in the private industry?
And is it not a complete and utter failure of our educational system to focus on spelling and grammar while never getting to the goal of language which is knowledge and understanding of our past and present; so that we as voters may better direct our futures? America was once a young nation. But, this is the 21st century and youth no longer serves as an excuse for failing to grow up.
If we fail to mature as a nation, and meet our immediate and long term future with intelligence, knowledge, and awareness of our past, good and bad, we are unlikely to survive our reputation as a great nation with the greatest of promise at her birth.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.Posted by David R. Remer at February 26, 2007 10:49 AM
David,
That is one of my big problems with government provided education, unfortunately politics and sometimes brainwashing are the end result. There has never been a better racket in the history of governments, the ability to not only be able to brainwash your citizens but to have them demand you continue doing it!
As for your other question:
Do our soldiers consciously abdicate claims to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness when they join our military? They do in practice regarding life and liberty. But, is it a conscious choice?
Yes, it is a conscious choice, one that soldiers (and sailors and airmen and marines) are made well aware of. I know when I went into the military I did so being fully aware that I was giving up a lot of rights (temporarily) in order to make sure my family, friends and fellow citizens could enjoy their rights. To see them constantly giving up those rights to the federal government for perceived security sickens me every day and I wonder why I gave of my body for… :(
As Ben Franklin wrote: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” and “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.”
Rhinehold, the only alternative to government run education is each parent teach their own, which of course would result in 97% of all children having horrible incompetent instructors.
Given there is no alternative for society at large to government education, it is incumbent upon that society to demand through their vote vast improvements to the educational system if they perceive it to be failing. I think we are beginning to witness that movement beginning here in 2007.
As for our soldiers, I agree entirely. They do indeed know they are relinquishing claim to both liberty and life when joining the military. But, they do NOT relinquish their right to representation in the Congress. That was one of the finer points I was implying in article.
Posted by: David R. Remer at February 26, 2007 01:46 PM‘America’s education system has never been what it should have been, and should be.’
Could this be because of all the rules set down about education? Can’t overdue the learning - it wears them out and they don’t have enough freetime - like afterschool when they should be doing homework.
Could it be because of all the things that are added to the curriculum every year? The ‘feel good’ programs? Our kids are becoming ‘stepford’ children.
Who is against vouchers? I believe that this would cause competition for our government run schools and give us parents the chance to find a better education for our children.
Think of all the private owned schools that would open their doors - and compete against each other to get those vouchers.
This would cause our government to improve the education system… that’s what they are afraid of.. they would have to improve or give up control to the citizens…
David,
I teach fourth grade. We were informed of three very important changes this school year.
1) The ELA and Math test will be given earlier in the year.
2) Our budget has been slashed again.
3) Once again the results of the practice tests will not be available to us until after the actual tests have already been taken.
It continues to feel every year that we are being set up to fail.
It’s a very poor district(Syracuse, N.Y.) with many of our students below poverty level and very little parental support.
Programs to improve academic performance are routinely cut, while districts with larger tax base receive more money.
Text books and curriculums are decided upon by politicians and their connected associates not by teachers.
It’s sad.
Rhinehold
Would you want to try to educate your children? I know I sure didn’t want to try it with mine. While public education does have it’s draw backs and for the most part is horriably in inadequate, there are only three other alternatives.
1.Leave the child completely uneducated.
The worst thing to do to a child is to let them grow up uneducated. Ignorance might be bliss but it is also very dangerous.
2.Private education.
While private schools most generally provide a better education than public schools, they’re expensive and most parents either can’t afford to send their kids to a private school or are unwilling to make the sacrifices it takes.
I can tell you about the sacrifices as my kids went to private schools. But to us it was worth it. It’s not to a lot of folks.
3.The parents educate the child.
Not everyone has the ability to teach children. Either they don’t have the education themselves or they just can’t teach. I know of folks with college educations that can’t teach worth a crap.
Also children have short attention spans and it takes someone with the ability to get and hold a child’s attention. Not everyone can do this.
Even if they do have the ability how many parents have enough knowledge in every subject to be able to adequately teach them?
David
Given there is no alternative for society at large to government education, it is incumbent upon that society to demand through their vote vast improvements to the educational system if they perceive it to be failing.
And it is failing. There’s to much social experimentation and not enough teaching on things that will help the students when they enter the real world.
I think we are beginning to witness that movement beginning here in 2007.
I sure hope so.
In my recent bid for the school board I was told by several parents that they didn’t like the way things are being done in our schools. And most of these parents voted for me. But not enough voters were all that concerned about improving our educational system to put me over the top.
But it takes more than just a new face to make the needed changes. It takes the voters demanding those changes.
BTW, It seems that some of the voters have decided that my opponent needs to be recalled. He demanded the firing of the principle in one of our elementary schools because she suspended a 3rd grade student that hit a teacher with a ball bat. The kid didn’t like the grade he got on a math test.
Fortunately the teacher only suffered a broken finger. But it looks like the incident is going to be the straw that broke the camel’s back as the public in general is rallying around the teacher and principle.
Andre
Sounds to me like your school district needs to be completely overhauled. Starting with the school board. You’d be surprised how many problems can be solved just by replacing the ‘decision makers’ at the top with folks that are responsible.
There is the old Jesuit saying, “Give me a child….. until he is seven, and I will give you the man”
Any education of children involes indoctrination by it’s very nature.
I went to public schools and recieved a good education. I was also given skepticism by my parents. I argued with a Sunday School teacher at the age of 5 or 6 when she tried to convince me of some Christian “truth”.
The American public, while perhaps not tops among engineering and mathematics, are not at the bottom either. It is utter nonsense that we are producing tons of illiterates. If you compare the education of the 1940’s to now, there has been a tremendous rise in literacy. In the modern world, it is less easy to get by without an education. That phenomenon excludes individuals that may have thrived 50 years ago.
I think there are inefficiencies in public education, as in any large bureaucracy. It is my opinion that those that wish to abolish public education, wish to inject their own political agenda upon the children of the nation. We have only begun to actually educate minorities and farm kids in equitable ways that wasn’t done 40 years ago. Do some want to revert to those days?
When someone tells you they have a great new plan to usurp public education, be skeptical. They have an agenda.
Posted by: gergle at February 26, 2007 04:26 PMAre American students aware that our Declaration of Independence stipulates that it is their Right and obligation to alter or, overthrow their own government should that government fail to provide for their Safety and Happiness?
David, we can only hope that these students understand the Declaration better than you seem to.
This notion that it is the government’s duty to provide “happiness” is a huge part of the problem. The pursuit of happiness is not the same thing as “happiness” at all, which is the responsibility of the indvidual.
The education system today is mired in this belief that the happiness that comes from each student’s “self-esteem” is more important than the difficult task of self-discipline required for learning. Further, the education system is held hostage by, among others, teachers and administrators who are afraid of losing the “happiness” they derive from being fully employed without threat of competition. Hence the effort to thwart school vouchers or other innovative approaches.
Posted by: Loyal Opposition at February 26, 2007 05:40 PMOn an international test:
- American 15-year-olds scored in the bottom 28%!
- Among 29 industrialized countries, the U.S. scored below 20 industrialized nations in math, and below 27 in the list below.
Below are the 27 nations that had better math scores:
- (01) Hong Kong-China: Score: 550 (highest)
- (02) Finland: Score: 544
- (03) Korea: Score: 542
- (04) Netherlands: Score: 538
- (05) Liechtenstein: Score: 536
- (06) Japan: Score: 534
- (07) Canada: Score: 532
- (08) Belgium: Score: 529
- (09) Macao-China: Score: 527
- (10) Switzerland: Score: 527
- (11) New Zealand: Score: 523
- (12) Australia: Score: 524
- (13) Czech Republic: Score: 516
- (14) Iceland: Score: 515
- (15) Denmark: Score: 514
- (16) France: Score: 511
- (17) Sweden: Score: 509
- (18) Austria: Score: 506
- (19) Germany: Score: 503
- (20) Ireland: Score: 503
- (21) Slovak Republic: Score: 498
- (22) Norway: Score: 495
- (23) Luxembourg: Score: 493
- (24) Poland: Score: 490
- (25) Hungary: Score: 490
- (26) Spain: Score: 485
- (27) Latvia: Score: 483
- (28) UNITED STATES: Score: 483
- (29) Russian Federation: Score: 468
- (30) Portugal: Score: 466
- (31) Italy: Score: 466
- (32) Greece: Score: 445
- (33) Serbia and Montenegro: Score: 437
- (34) Turkey: Score: 423
- (35) Uruguay: Score: 422
- (36) Thailand: Score: 417
- (37) Mexico: Score: 385
- (38) Indonesia: Score: 360
- (39) Tunisia: Score: 359
However, the declining quality and increasing cost of public education isn’t helping.
David R. Remer wrote: Clearly, America’s government is not fulfilling its obligations and responsibilities in very fundamental ways.No, it isn’t.
It’s not even coming close.
It’s been getting worse for 30+ years. A large number of problems are being ignored decade after decade, growing in number and severity.
It’s not any one thing.
It’s a lot of things.
It’s a thousand cuts.
There will eventually be consequences for all of it.
There is an increasing potential for an economic melt-down as our pressing problems continue to go ignored.
Andre M. Hernandez It continues to feel every year that we are being set up to fail.Ron Brown could be right. Maybe some school board changes are needed? Likewise with the severely bloated federal government. There too, far too many irresponsible incumbent politicians keep gettting repeatedly re-elected, despite the polls showing most voters think the nation is moving in the wrong direction.
Too many school systems have too much dead-weight.
Too many schools are top-heavy with too many over-paid, do-nothing administrators.
In Dallas, Texas, the fraud in the public school system is rampant.
The number of students per teacher is too high.
The number of admininstrators is too high.
Too much dead-weight is a recipie for failure.
It won’t get better until slumbering voters start doing their part.
Vouchers that gave parental choice would go a long way to improve schools. They need not always be for private schools. Many European countries have public systems, but allow more parental choice.
What a silly system we have where we let the worst performers continue to provide the service and when there is a problem they just ask for more money. If parents could choose, they would leave the bad schools and perhaps some of the bad teachers and administrators would find work more suited to their skill sets.
Posted by: Jack at February 26, 2007 06:16 PM‘…some of the bad teachers and administrators would find work more suited to their skill sets.’
I’m not sure the teacher is always ‘bad’ - a lot of times they are as frustrated with the system as the parents are.
“What a silly system we have where we let the worst performers continue to provide the service and when there is a problem they just ask for more money.”“What a silly system we have where we let the worst performers continue to provide the service and when there is a problem they just ask for more money.”
I dunno, it works for the War Department.
Posted by: Tim Crow at February 26, 2007 06:42 PMdawn
Most teacher are dedicated and are trying to do the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately they aren’t given much to do with. Textbooks are way out of date and there aren’t enough in some cases to go around. Discipline is almost nonexistent. They’re pressured to pass students that don’t deserve it. In a lot of cases they have 35 to 40 students and really can’t spend the time needed with students that need help. They often have to pay out of their pockets for supplies that the school district should be buying. And pay isn’t all that good.
This can and does cause frustration.
My oldest daughter is a teacher. She taught in public schools for 8 years. Frustration lead her to apply to and go to work for a private school.
In addition to the above she was often called on the carpet because she didn’t give students undeserved passing grades. And a lot of parents just plain didn’t care about their child’s education enough to even meet with her about problems their child was having in school.
My daughter is one of very few truly gifted with being able to teach anyone anything without them even knowing they’re learning. Even as a kid she had a knack for being able to teach her younger sisters how to tell time, tie their shoes, and even brush their teeth, and make if fun for them.
The public schools are losing teachers like her fast and are worse off for it. What they are ending up with are teachers that aren’t as dedicated or gifted and therefore don’t really care.
David,
You said, “And yet, at no time in America’s history have educational systems of all of its states and counties ever, at one time, prepared its students for that decision, in any way that could be considered adequate.”
I agree. I also think that you have framed this correctly as a local issue. Because while we have never have had all school districts do well, we have had many if not most do it well.
The failure of schools is not a problem with a “national” solution. It is a problem with many local solutions. What works well in Appalachia may or may not work well in the inner cities. However, we do know that there are common themes in cohorts of schools that fail. There are also school districts that share very similar circumstances that produce radically different results.
I believe that we would be much better off we empowered the academics at the university level a larger voice to diagnose these problems and craft the solutions that allowing political or judicial perscription to carry the day.
You make a good point that even at those schools that succeed in general, civics, history, and literature are still not taught in a way to allow its students to make well informed decisions in the ballot box. Some of these challenges our forefathers never envisioned. They never considered that the entire populace would be handed the invitation to elect Senators for instance. This I think in part is why certain powers were reserved to the Senate and not to the house.
While I think that the general election of Senators has been a step forward in our democracy, it does allow for the greater interplay of party politics and partisan politics largely in order to influence the decisions of the voters.
Posted by: Rob at February 26, 2007 08:19 PMLO, I understand just fine the Declaration and Constitution. I however, did not expand my verbage sufficiently. To be accurate I should have written:
“Are American students aware that our Declaration of Independence stipulates that it is their Right and obligation to alter or, overthrow their own government should that government fail to provide the preconditions for their Safety and Happiness?”
Happiness is a very subjective and individual responsibility. It is however, government’s responsibility, according to our founders, to insure that structural impediments to happiness like slavery, child labor exploitation, women as property, and unfair and unequal application of the laws, are not the cause of unhappiness amongst its citizens. A government that exploits such impediments justifies the people altering or overthrowing that government.
Martin L. King sought to alter government, and did so with his life and the cooperation and assistance of many others. Our colonialists chose to overthrow a government that intruded upon privacies, and taxed the people burdensomely without giving them voice or possible reconciliation.
Posted by: David R. Remer at February 26, 2007 08:46 PMALL Voucher Supporters, you cannot possibly convince a majority of Americans to your reasoning if your reasoning does NOT address the devastation to public schools which, the loss of some students and funding to vouchers will create for the majority of students left behind in the public school.
Now, if you want to discuss closing down failing schools altogether, vouchering ALL of its students to other schools of their choice, the logic holds up much better. But, I think the end result will not be what many would expect. Where will the new teachers come from? The old teachers from the shut down school? Does that make sense? And what of bussing and overcrowding of other schools if you close down failing ones?
Finally, what of those students who simply reject and refuse the authority of schools to teach them anything, which is the case for thousands and thousands of high school students who attend for comraderie, not education? Vouchers in the end will save a small number of students at a huge price while spreading the problems of failing schools out to successful ones.
Only some failing students will succeed with vouchers, not all. The hard data is still not in yet as to how effective vouchers are for failing students at such a high premium paid.
Two of the largest impediments to learning in our schools are lack of security at the hands of bullies in our schools and inadequate teacher resources, including teacher qualification. Vouchers are just a way of throwing more money at individual failing student families, without addressing the underlying causes of failing schools.
Posted by: David R. Remer at February 26, 2007 08:51 PMThe arguement for Voucher’s is dishonest at best. It is a thinly veiled attempt of the right wing christians to allow teaching of religion as science, the rich to keep from paying their share to public education as they send their kids to private schools. Further it allows the corporatist to bust the few remaining unions. Competition? In a few short years the education of our future generations would be controlled by 2 or 3 corporations with only their bottom line as their interest. The whole thing is part of the privitization ideology that has failed us in Iraq, New Orleans and has generally made this country worse off. The prison system has been privatized and has not been successful, although at first glance you would think it was. Unfortunately the private prisons only take the eaasier inmates and leave the states to deal with the harder inmates. They would do the same to the schools.
The public school system has problems but most of the problem is the fact that the kids dont want to learn or cannot learn due to outside tensions such as drugs, alcohol, broken families, etc.
Those that want to learn and can learn in the manner that the public schools teach do just fine. Those that cannot and do not learn in this manner are out of luck. The schools need to adjust to the different learning types and teach accordingly. We need to fund this effort. It is, after all cheaper than prison.
Posted by: j2t2 at February 26, 2007 09:52 PMJ2t2, with vouchers, the rich would continue to send their children to public schools AND continue to pay the taxes they are paying now to support public education.
The difference is that poor students would have the OPTION (not the requirement) of sending their students to many of the schools which are now only open to the rich. Each student would simply have the option of using the money now spent on them in the public schools to CHOOSE which school they attend.
This is something that would benefit poor students who want more options, and wouldn’t be any advantatge to the rich. If anything, some rich folks might not like having a bunch of poor kids pouring into their exclusive posh schools.
The devestation that would result in public schools? As compared to what? The smashing success that they enjoy now? If a public school is doing a good job now, there would be no reason to pull out and look elsewhere. The public schools which would suffer are the ones which no sane parent would want their kids in to begin with.
Posted by: Loyal Opposition at February 26, 2007 10:10 PMLO you said- The rich would still send their kids to public schools but the poor would now be able to attend most of the same schools now open to only the rich …What? The well to do and rich would take the money and run leaving the public schools poorer. We need to work to improve the public schools and most likely the students, who by rights should take responsibility for getting a good education.
If private schools cost the same per pupil as public schools yet the results are vastly superior perhaps we should see what makes them successful and try the same in public schools. However, I fear its just do to cherry picking much like the privatized prisons.
Maybe the answer is to make school illegal like we do with drugs, then most of the harder to teach younsters would fight like hell to go to school.
Posted by: j2t2 at February 26, 2007 11:10 PMI love it. Blame the schools. Promote vouchers. In a law suit crazy society, it’s always someone elses fault.
The 27 countries d.a.n. listed, none have the size or multicultural society we have. Many do not educate ALL students like we do. Stop blaming schools for all societies ills.
How about blame the parents? Education has more to do with family culture and parental involvement.
It isn’t dead weight in schools, it’s dead weight in homes. Wanna make schools acheive higher levels, skim off the dopes and intrude into family life. It’s what other cultures do.
Vouchers are just a sneaky way to fund private schools with public money. Want to return to an even more segregated school sytem than we had in the fifties. Promote vouchers.
I really get tired of this nonsense. Our schools need work, yes, but they aren’t abysmal. Work with some foreign engineers and you’ll see what dopes some of them are. Why do you think they come to our colleges? Besides federal grants, the colleges are high quality. Guess who the majority of their students are? Americans.
David,
Great wide-ranging article and interesting discussion going on here. Let me start with what I was thinking about as I began to read this article:
From the Declaration:
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
The way I see it, the framers were talking about several things here.
First, they were clearly telling us that it is We the People are who were to be in charge of our government and it’s direction. Not just factions or certain segments of our people, but ALL of us. Not just the rich, but the middle class and the poor. Not just the religious, but those who doubt, and those who deny the existence of a God. Not just those who own businesses, but those who earn their living laboring for those owners and making their businesses successful. Not just the strongest, but also the weakest of our citizens.
Sadly, that is not the way it turned out in America.
The richest control everything, while other segments such as the radical militant Christians are also currently gaining too much of a sway toward their opinions — and any and all attempts to loosen this state of too much power and control, those who persist in fighting for an equal voice, have long been viewed and treated as a threat, and are harshly condemned. This is wrong. Such usurpation is a complete subversion of the founders intentions. Because the safety and happiness of our citizens who do not fall under the label “wealthy”, or those whose opinions don’t agree with certain segments and factions who are gaining control are, and have been falling by the wayside.
In my opinion, it isn’t merely a lack of, or suffering with a poor education that lies at the root of this problem, it is the overwhelming sense of helplessness — of an inability to change the direction of our government that many people feel in the face of these forces of overriding power and control. Because the glaring truth is, if more of our people had long enjoyed a greater share of power and control at both the state and federal levels, this widespread perception of our public school educational system failing would never have had the chance to reach the stage it has — with so many suggesting that it’s an total disaster that needs to be utterly scrapped in favor of vouchers and privitization.
Also, let me just add something else here (strictly my own personal opinion): The best public school boards, administrations, teachers, resources, facilities, and testing cannot make up for the role of parents in a childs education. If you don’t read to them from a very early age, they won’t learn to enjoy reading and learning about new things. If all you do is let them watch TV and play video games, their minds will not grow. If you don’t debate subjects with them, they won’t know how to formulate or articulate their opinions on all different kinds of subjects well. If you don’t let them hold a different opinion from you, you are teaching them intellectual passivity. And if you don’t expose them to all kinds of people who do all kinds of interesting things, they will live in a bubble that you are creating for them. The truth is, NO school can make up for parents who do a crappy job with parenting their child. Period. If people want their children to not only be smart, but be intellectually active and alive, it isn’t just being able to memorize and pass tests that is important — but their learning HOW to learn and THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Schools cannot be expected to teach that, they don’t have the time or the responsibility to do so — that is the job of parents. In my opinion this is the far greater problem. It’s not public schools for the most part, it’s the parents who are creating the majority of the problems we’ve been seeing. I believe that once you’ve got a kid hooked on reading and learning and wanting to discover more, even a very unskilled teacher can’t dismantle the learning process — it just comes naturally.
Getting back to the second part of that quote from the Declaration, I believe they were talking about the idea of Impeachment there. Impeachment wasn’t meant to be something rare in our government — clearly the founders believed it was going to be an important tool that we would use with far greater frequency to preserve our rights and freedoms, and to check the power of the executive branch, and to avoid tyranny in general. This is why they spent so much time discussing it at the Constitutional Convention and why there are SIX specific references to Impeachment in that document. (btw, the concept of impeachment was something the founders took directly from the English House of Commons — even the antiquated “high crimes and misdemeanors” was taken from there, even though they did discuss using another term: “maladministration.”)
I don’t think the founders could have contemplated that Impeachment would become something that people actually acted afraid to discuss or even mention. Nor do I think they could have guessed that Congress would basically cease to view itself as defenders of our Constitution, and to cease to defend the powers meant to be held by the legislative branch in order to maintain a check on those of the executive branch — rather than become a mere extention of a “Unitary Executive” style of government. Or to quote Dick Cheney, to actually believe that “the president needs to have unimpaired executive authority.”
Thus, we now live in a day and age where there are no checks and balances on the executive branch, where the Constitution is ignored and our rights are and can be violated at will, and where the president and his administration are allowed many and various instances of a complete and overwhelming abuse of power — and not a single solitary thing is done to address any of them.
Adrienne said: “First, they were clearly telling us that it is We the People are who were to be in charge of our government and it’s direction.”
That does clearly appear to be the intent of the Declaration. But, then the Constitution comes along and denies direct democracy, denies women, denies children, denies blacks, denies slaves, and denies men who are not landholders, the vote. This is one of the great ironies of our nation’s founding, that the founders could at once, entertain the noblest of ideals of human nature and democracy, and yet, when where Ox cart wheel hit the cobblestone, they chose to act small, and petty, and selfishly with little confidence in human beings to govern their own affairs.
Typical politicians even then, speak ideologically and nobly, but, act and vote for profits and personal gains, as the Great Compromise with slave owners was hammered out, demonstrated. Still, for them to have had the courage and wisdom to set out the ideology in the founding documents, was testiment to the wisdom of many to set the goals very, very high, knowing they would not be achieved in their lifetimes.
Adrienne said: “In my opinion, it isn’t merely a lack of, or suffering with a poor education that lies at the root of this problem, it is the overwhelming sense of helplessness…”
Education empowers, in some cases far more powerfully than money. India’s expulsion of the British, S. Africa’s overcoming Apartheid, our own Civil War resulting in the Emancipation Proclamation, and women’s suffrage in the U.S. are testament to that.
While on this topic, I will say that it no longer makes sense for America to restrict the vote to 18 year olds. The future of the nation should be guided by all high school students as well. Suffrage should be extended to all 10th graders who are still enrolled. Good for them, good for the nation.
Impeachment is made difficult by the advent of political parties and our republican form of government. Not impossible, but, very difficult. A vote of confidence as in the parliamentary systems, has both its strengths and weaknesses depending on the circumstances.
What is truly disturbing is the fact that a Constituional Convention is no longer possible in America, and amendments are very near impossible. Those are the adaptive mechanisms that allow change without civil war and revolution. A very dangerous circumstance for America that they are no longer viable options.
Our population of 300 million persons, and climbing, has outgrown many of the methodologies conceived by our forefathers in a small agriculturally based nation with only 13 states and population barely a fraction of what it is today. Our Constitution can still work for this massive population, but, NOT without major reforms in campaign financing, lobbying, voting and elections, and limits on the power of political parties and redistricting.
All of these reforms are preempted from ever occurring in an effective way, by the structural impediment of political parties and our incumbent protection based system.
I have mixed feeling about vouchers. I’d like to see parents to be able to take their kids out of a school that’s not doing it’s job and send them somewhere else. And vouchers would allow that.
But if private schools start excepting vouchers they open the door for the government to start dictating to them what their curriculum will be and when and how to do things.
This is the problem that public schools are having. They started taking money from the government and the government started telling them what they have to do in order to keep the money coming in.
I’ve heard of open districts where parents can send their children to any school their taxes support. For example, if Atlanta had an open district and someone didn’t like the job their local school was doing they could send their kids to any other school in Atlanta. This would force school officials to look at the schools that are losing students and find out what’s needed to improve them. I think I’d support something like this before vouchers.
Gergle, it’s funny that you mention America’s fine university system to defend our education system.
Let’s look at how our university system is different from primary and secondary education then.
Students decide where they want to go. All sorts of federal, state (and other) funding is available to them, which they can then take and pay to whatever school admits them which they’d like to attend.
We have a mix of public and private universities, all of which get significant amounts of public money through the student loan system.
If you think the university system is good, then why not make primary and secondary schools more like it? Permit choice. Permit competition. If a public school suffers because nobody wants to attend it, then who cares if a crappy school dies?
Good riddance.
Should we care because poor kids are stuck going there? No. That’s exactly the point. A voucher system gives them the option not to.
Posted by: Jim at February 27, 2007 12:51 PMgergle wrote:
I love it. Blame the schools. Promote vouchers. In a law suit crazy society, it’s always someone elses fault.
gergle wrote:
The 27 countries d.a.n listed, none have the size or multicultural society we have. Many do not educate ALL students like we do. Stop blaming schools for all societies ills.
That’s a good point.
I suppose size and multiculturalism is a factor.
Yet, our politicians are ignoring exisiting immigration laws, and continue to import millions of immigrants (legal and illegal) that are less educated and impoverished.
Seems to be making things worse, rather than better?
Is over-population something China and India are happy about?
The U.S., now with a population of 300 million, it is one of the most populous nations on the planet.
I don’t understand how so many can think we need massive immigration (legal or not), as if we are in some sort of population race; as if we’re afraid some one else is going to out-populate us?
gergle wrote:
Stop blaming schools for all societies ills.
How about blame the parents? Education has more to do with family culture and parental involvement.
It isn’t dead weight in schools, it’s dead weight in homes.
Yes, you are large right about that.
Parents, people, and another core societal ill is what is at the root of the problem.
Most parents don’t pay much attention to the school system anymore.
However, there is corruption and bloated dead-weight in the school systems too.
Still, I agree that an ill of society is at the root of the problem, like so many other.
Education is important.
Not just the basics of Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic.
But other things too.
- Responsibility = Power + Conscience + Education + Transparency + Accountability
- Corruption = Power - Conscience - Education - Transparency - Accountability
- Conscience = the source of moral and ethical judgment; a sense of right and wrong; a sense of caring. A good Conscience is not merely knowing what is right or wrong, but caring enough to do what is right, and provides the motivation to seek the balance of Education, Transparency, Accountability, and Power required for any successful society, government, or organization;
- Education = an understanding of the importance of: Education, Transparency, Accountability, Power, Responsibility, Corruption, and the fundamental human desire to seek security and prosperity with the least effort and pain, and that some will resort to dishonest, unethical, or illegal methods to obtain it;
- Transparency = visibility and simplification of cleverly over-complicated processes to reveal and identify abusers, create outrage, reduce opportunities for abuse, and discourage abuse and dishonesty;
- Accountability = consequences needed to encourage law enforcement, encourage ethical behavior, and discourage abuse and dishonesty;
- Power = force required to enforce the laws, discontinue abuse, ensure consequences, punish abusers, and discourage abuse and dishonesty; but unchecked Power without sufficient Education, Transparency, and Accountability breeds Corruption.
That education can be obtained the smart way, or the hard way.
At any rate, Americans will get their education, one way or another.
Our education should include that we all understand the importance of human nature and the common-sense factors above.
Most people, by human nature, naturally, seek security and prosperity with the least amount of effort and pain.
There is nothing wrong with that, and most people are ethical and law abiding.
However, some people (Cheaters) have surrendered to laziness, which breeds Corruption.
Cheaters will resort to unethical and/or illegal methods (to varying degrees).
Especially when and where opportunity and Power exists.
Cheaters will try to tap-into others’ laziness, and use it for their own nefarious purposes (e.g. controlling others; seducing voters into the circular, divisive, distracting, petty partisan warfare; pitting voters against each other; pitting citizens and illegal aliens against each other; brain-washing voters into believing they must pull the party-lever (i.e. blindly vote straight ticket), dividing the voters so that a majority can never exist to vote-out the irresponsible incumbent politicians, etc.).
Laziness also breeds complacency and apathy.
Currently, due to a lack of education (i.e. ignorance), voters fail to be responsible to vote responsibly, or vote at all, or lazily blindly pull the party-lever, letting others do their thinking for them.
While most Americans polled say the nation is moving in the wrong direction, believe Congress and the Executive Branch are corrupt, most of those voters continue to repeatedly reward and re-elect those same incumbent politicians, giving them a 90%+ re-election rate for over a decade now.
Voters will be more responsible when:
- (1) they are adequately educated and cognizant of history and the basic human trait at the root of many human problems, to be sufficiently motivated to want to avoid the painful consequences of being too complacent, lazy, apathetic, indifferent, and negligent to pay close attention to what their elected officials are doing; demanding transparency and accountability.
- (2) or when the consequences of being irresponsible becomes too painful. Where learning from history fails, pain and misery is a good teacher too.
NOTE: Regarding vouchers …
- (01) Vouchers undermine public education. We must decide which is it going to be? Public or Private.
- (02) If a voucher system is the route chosen, how will it be different than what we have now?
- (03) Will vouchers destroy the public system?
- (04) Will vouchers aggravate the poverty problem and encourage segregation?
- (05) Will vouchers to independent schools eventually be regulated out of existence?
- (06) Are there enough private schools for the voucher demand?
- (07) Won’t the voucher system simply come to resemble what it replaced? Will the problem really be resolved?
- (08) What is really the root problem , and how will vouchers fix it?
- (09) How can the U.S. spend more per student than many countries, and have such poor results?
- (10) There seems to be a world-wide trend to a voucher system. Why? Is it really better? Or is a merely another symptom of the widening gap between the 1% or 2% with half of the world’s wealth and the remaining 98% to 99% of the world’s population?
- (11) Is there any solid evidence that the voucher system is better?
- (12) Currently, property taxes (in many states) fund public education. Will a voucher system change that?
- (13) A common argument is that the voucher system will provide the needed competition. However, once the voucher system is the predominant system, what will keep the voucher system from becoming the education monopoly it replaced? Are we really addressing the root problem?
Posted by: d.a.n at February 27, 2007 01:33 PM
Jim, your argument has one huge flaw. Primary and Secondary schools need to be in proximity of the student base. Close one down, and you have a huge student base that has no educational facility within a reasonable commute to attend school.
That is one of many reasons choice can’t work at this level. We must target failing schools, and provide that school with what it needs to cease to be a failing school. And that means a national commitment to local schools and education.
Posted by: David R. Remer at February 27, 2007 01:33 PMDavid, your reasoning appears a little shaky there.
If a public school closed down for lack of funds in the scenario you describe, by necessity it means that students are jumping ship and giving their money (vouchers) to a neigboring school.
This would have to mean that that there ARE educational facilities within a reasonable commute. If there weren’t, students wouldn’t be leaving in the first place.
Posted by: Loyal Opposition at February 27, 2007 08:58 PMDavid, you wrote:
“This is one of the great ironies of our nation’s founding, that the founders could at once, entertain the noblest of ideals of human nature and democracy, and yet, when where Ox cart wheel hit the cobblestone, they chose to act small, and petty, and selfishly with little confidence in human beings to govern their own affairs.”
Agreed. For all of the wisdom they possessed and drew upon to craft the Declaration and the Constitution, it’s clear that they were still after all, men of their own time. We’ve fortunately come a long way since then — yet because of the carefully considered (and often fiercely debated) wording they chose to use then, they actually made every bit of progress we now enjoy possible. And the power of those words have also inspired countless numbers of people who’ve faced various forms of oppression and tyranny all over the world, as well. For these reasons, those documents were, and still are, a truly amazing feat in my opinion.
“Still, for them to have had the courage and wisdom to set out the ideology in the founding documents, was testiment to the wisdom of many to set the goals very, very high, knowing they would not be achieved in their lifetimes.”
I think that’s very true for the most part. Though I often suspect that some of the men who took part in the Constitutional Convention did not fully grasp this fact. I think it’s clear however from their writings, that Jefferson and Madison, and likely Franklin did know what they were truly about — and of the importance of it.
“Education empowers, in some cases far more powerfully than money.”
I agree entirely, but education isn’t all that’s needed for people to seize and then hold onto a measure of real power. Boldness, fearlessness, conviction and belief in the strength of ones powers of reasoning and creative ideas are very much needed, too. In my view, those qualities most often cannot be taught in schools by teachers (although teachers can bolster and reinforce those things in their students). While some people seem to be born possessing those traits, the greater majority of people usually gain that kind of confidence, tenacity and strength of mind and will during their upbringing. By this I mean that children seem to absorb the examples that are being set for them by the people who they are closest to, or they grab onto them through personal struggles they wage and then manage to overcome, all by themselves.
I’ve noticed during my life that parents who are strict controllers of their kids — who are too overprotective, or who regiment and propagandize their children to act exactly like themselves, or who try to force them to live up to incredibly high expectations will often produce people who may very well excell with their grade point average, but who usually don’t possess boldness, fearlessness or the spark of true brilliance and creativity. That’s because self confidence is needed to bring these things to the fore — which doesn’t seem to grow from being micro managed and told who to be, and how to act, and what to think and do constantly.
While parents need to give their children clear disipline and guidelines, they also need to show them respect as unique individuals. You can make them follow parental rules, but at the same time it’s important for them to be learning that their minds and opinions are their own — and not necessarily a match with their parents. Freedom of thought is what I think diminishes fears, brings brilliance and creativity to the fore and builds the kind of self confidence that is needed for true empowerment. Attending school, by it’s very nature is too disciplined a setting to teach, and to impart those things to children.
I hope that makes sense — because I don’t know how else I could explain it. :^)
“India’s expulsion of the British, S. Africa’s overcoming Apartheid, our own Civil War resulting in the Emancipation Proclamation, and women’s suffrage in the U.S. are testament to that.”
Absolutely, but all of those things took the power of conviction paired with strong, bold and fearless leadership, also.
“While on this topic, I will say that it no longer makes sense for America to restrict the vote to 18 year olds. The future of the nation should be guided by all high school students as well. Suffrage should be extended to all 10th graders who are still enrolled. Good for them, good for the nation.”
Sadly, because the kind of controlling parents I just described seem to exist all over and in large numbers, I can’t get behind this idea. I think it may be wisest to wait until they are legally adults before giving them the vote, when they are no longer living under the restrictive and mandatory oversight of their parents.
“Impeachment is made difficult by the advent of political parties and our republican form of government. Not impossible, but, very difficult.”
It has been made too difficult, and yes, has definitely become too much of a partisan exercise, rather than another tool that may be used to defend the Constitution and control the executive branch for the good of the entire nation. I think that is a disgrace and something to be ashamed of — especially when clear violations and abuses of power occur.
“What is truly disturbing is the fact that a Constituional Convention is no longer possible in America, and amendments are very near impossible. Those are the adaptive mechanisms that allow change without civil war and revolution. A very dangerous circumstance for America that they are no longer viable options.”
Well said. I agree 100%.
“Our population of 300 million persons, and climbing, has outgrown many of the methodologies conceived by our forefathers in a small agriculturally based nation with only 13 states and population barely a fraction of what it is today. Our Constitution can still work for this massive population, but, NOT without major reforms in campaign financing, lobbying, voting and elections, and limits on the power of political parties and redistricting.”
Jefferson believed that we would need to revisit and revise our Constitution every twenty-one years, in order to keep it current, up to date, and reflective of succeeding generations — but this suggestion was struck down. Thus, throughout our history we’ve been forced to live by their words and our interpretations of them only, rather than have access to active and engaged negotiation and debate.
“All of these reforms are preempted from ever occurring in an effective way, by the structural impediment of political parties and our incumbent protection based system.”
Partisanship often does tend to kill sincerity and honesty doesn’t it? Especially when money and interest is the main ingredient holding parties together, rather true conviction and the desire to represent the needs and the will of the people.
Posted by: Adrienne at February 28, 2007 05:05 AMLO, we have whole districts which are failing students. There are isolated individual schools which are failing, but, also, as in LA, D.C., and in the South, there are whole districts failing.
So your counter argument makes no sense given that fact.
Posted by: David R. Remer at February 28, 2007 06:30 AMOne thing everyone is missing here is that the private sector never fails to feel a need.
If a store that only sells Pepsi ends up going bankrupt because everyone boycotts Pepsi, a Cocacola store will be there in an instant.
Never once has the private sector failed to take advantage of a profitable situation.
If everyone in South Central pulls their students out of a particular school, another company in the private sector will build a better school.
This has been the case of Capitalism since it’s very beggining.
Those who envision children with out a place to go to school are failing to see the trends in history.
Where there is profit, there are investors.
Posted by: Bryan AJ Kennedy at February 28, 2007 11:49 AMLO, we have whole districts which are failing students. There are isolated individual schools which are failing, but, also, as in LA, D.C., and in the South, there are whole districts failing.So your counter argument makes no sense given that fact.
David, what are you disagreeing with? I’m not sure you’ve thought this through.
If an entire district is failing their students but there’s nowhere for those students to go instead and spend their vouchers, then clearly they won’t go anywhere. They can’t, and the failing districts willl continue to get their money.
If, however, there ARE other options for those students, why are you so dead set on forcing them to remain in failing schools in failing districts?
Because these students are poor and disadvantaged and don’t have options? Well, that’s EXACTLY the problem a voucher system addresses. It gives students who don’t have the resources now those resources they need and places them on a more even playing field with the children of wealthy parents who do NOT have to keep their children in bad schools.
There is also this factor: under a voucher system, we’ll likely see a profusion of new schools. The market answers the need—supply and demand.
Posted by: Loyal Opposition at February 28, 2007 02:21 PMFer Chrissakes people, get yer kids outta the public “schools” as soon as ya can. Are ya even aware that even the methods used to teach mathmatics were manipulated SIXTY years ago to prevent the possibility of a generation of Hitler Youth being created? And they’ve come light years since. We now have prevented even the possibility of a sentient offspring. Are ya aware of how many “schoolteachers” have quit, FOR THE CHILDREN? I’m proud to say my daughter exceeded state graduate standards within eighteen months of “home schooling” and “self schooling”, before her sixteenth birthday. The entire structure is… ROTTEN. Kick it ANYWHERE, you’ll see. Far too broke to fix with these “band-aids” ya offer here. The whole damned thing is a creation of the fascists that run you, me and the rest through their threats and deliveries of violence.Imprisonment. Property Siezures. Disenfranchisement. Get it? You WILL. Just like those at Auschwitz, Padna. Wise up, or get in line. On yer feet, or on yer KNEES. These are malignant bellicose people that run this country, as evidenced by it’s proclivity to cage millions.I would hope and PRAY that y’all might spend a few days trying to understand both your own ancestral identity, as well as the identities of those that oppress us all, as I’m confident most of you will find out more than you ever expected. Provided you have the will to investigate these “mysteries”. Bear in mind that America was a nation founded by faith based, white europeans, mostly English, nearly ALL protestant. Is this a racist theme? I don’t know. I’m not a racist, and I resent the introduction of the term in this discussion. But in this environment, it’s inevitable. It’s not about race. A people have the RIGHT to decide who they are. So does a nation. With, of course, the notable exception of these here United snakes, ya understand. Once ya chew that up, consider the damage done by the women’s vote. I couldn’t care less about the ceaseless regurgitation of PC. Objectively, it must be stated and recognized that women are incapable of voting rationally, ie., if not voting for the best looking candidate, they will vote for security and comfort without exception, in direct opposition to the concept of individual prerogative, or, freedom. WE, America, have become a nation of “entitlements”, welfare cases all. Perhaps every Constitutional alteration after the Tenth Amendment has been a error. Certainly the bulk were. Only AFTER we recognize the errancy of our recent political debacles, can we asess the dire situation we find ourselves in. And a return to tried and true basics is not only desirable, it is imperative.
Posted by: William Sell at March 1, 2007 06:34 AMAs a student at a public high school in an affluent suburb of Boston that has consistently perfomed in the top ten within the state I can say that the main reason for the lack of performance in certain districts is the lack of funding they recieve. For example, my community decided to build a new High School 5 years ago. There was no need, the old building was in fine shape and had enough capacity. The state determined that there was not enough of a reason to build a school, so they did not fund it as much as they could have. Because of this the town voted a tax increase to pay for the sparkling new school that opened in 2004 on their own. I know that the new school as well as the higher than normal saleries that my town pays teachers have attracted the best educators in the area to teach. Imagine the possibilites if all that money was used to build a new school where students are not preforming well, and trully need a relief to over crowded classrooms and inadequate teachers in places such as the inner-city areas of Boston?
Vouchers will not solve the longterm problem, the dispaity of funding between schools that have different income bases.
Posted by: Warren P at March 1, 2007 09:55 AMWarren,
“the dispaity of funding between schools “
That is exactly what vouchers solve. The concept is that private industry will build schools, the government provides vouchers for school, you choose the school you take your kid to, you give them the vouchers, which is the promisary note from the U.S. government that will pay for the school.
The immediate benefit would be that the inner-city kids (such as I once was) can go to the nice suburban schools, you would have inner-city kids commuting on buses to your school.
The long term benefit is that with the private industry come better ergonomics, no more wasted tax dollars. This would also allow for supply and demand to provid the supply of better schools to the demand of the lower income communities.
It is a Libertarian concept that uses corperate greed to our advantage. Rather than be taken advantage of by the system, use the system and take advantage of it.
There are a million solutions to every problem, the advantage of this kind of solution is that the Corperate Capitalist market is already there, all we have to do is take advantage of its weaknesses to better provide for our selves.
Money is a reward for a service or product provided and is exchanged for goods and services.
Vote Libertarian.
Posted by: Bryan AJ Kennedy at March 1, 2007 11:52 AMDoes anyone else think that William Sell’s post has to be a joke?
Posted by: Adrienne at March 1, 2007 06:47 PMLO, vouchers give the Federal Government control of education. Are you for that turn of inevitable event? It is happening!
I would prefer national standards and curriculum based on our nation’s needs, but, leave management and control of education outside those standards to local school boards and parents.
Posted by: David R. Remer at March 1, 2007 07:00 PMDavid:
“vouchers give the Federal Government control of education. Are you for that turn of inevitable event? It is happening!”
It is, and few people would call No Child Left Behind a rousing success of government mandated and imposed standards, would they? Also, something that should concern all those who are calling for vouchers is the fact that NCLB testing hasn’t been required for private schools, so why do they seem so sure that those schools are doing such a superior job? It’s as though this is just being assumed.
Has anyone heard about the National Education Dept study that claimed that children in public schools generally performed as well or better in reading and mathematics than comparable children in private schools? Remarkable really, when we take into account the fact that private schools haven’t ever been required to take in children with behavior problems or certain health issues the way that public schools have. Which brings us to another question, would a federally run voucher system make private schools automatically required to take in any and all children who wish to attend? Or would only certain kids be given a “choice.”
Adrienne, regarding NCLB, you have to consider the source, the Bush administration.
The concept was very good. But it has not been funded or administered in ways to truly leave no child left behind.
As for the rest of your comment, I couldn’t agree more from my own readings on the topic.
Posted by: David R. Remer at March 1, 2007 07:55 PMAdrienne, the post you reference above is receiving all the attention it deserves, don’t encourage it. :-)
Posted by: David R. Remer at March 1, 2007 07:57 PMBryan, if money were only that, many of our problems would be solved. Money is much, much more than that. It is power to rule and govern the affairs, activities, and behaviors of others. And therein lies the root of much evil.
Posted by: David R. Remer at March 1, 2007 07:59 PMBryan, The supply of better schools to the demand of lower income communities! through vouchers? what a pipe dream, the thought of the for profit corporations providing all of this for elementary schools, middle schools and high schools makes me laugh. Privitization and deregulation doesnt work for everything.
Posted by: j2t2 at March 1, 2007 09:35 PMBryan, I don’t understand how vouchers would allow students from the city to attend suburban public school, I thought they would only be valid at private schools. If you are talking about bussing students, that is already done to a limited extent here through the METCO program, but it should not be necessary to bus students 25 miles just to recieve a decent education, funding for the city schools should be increased so that they may obtain all the amentites that schools such as mine already enjoy.
Posted by: Warren P at March 2, 2007 07:47 AMWarren P, good point. Also, if you close down school districts or multiple schools, what does that do to overcrowding of schools parents choose with vouchers?
Voucher proponents just don’t seem capable of thinking this through to its logical and unintended consequences. Most are likely Bush supporters given that modus operandi.
Posted by: David R. Remer at March 2, 2007 10:42 AMI’ve been an avid opponent of the governments machine for a long time. It’ll wear you down because there aren’t enough people who even care about freedom as long as they feel safe. Which is only an illusion.
My history professor said, “Unless we study the past, we are doomed to repeat it.” Well, that’s about the stupidest thing anyone could say ever about history. Truth is, History is gone and done and we will always be the stupidest species on this planet.
As for wars, Unless you have actually fought a war, shut your pie hole. You don’t have a clue what any war is about. When you’ve been tried by fire then you can speak about it.
Mankind is arrogant and self-righteous in all we do. Some individuals get to have all the fun. They do it by getting elected on lies and we the people keep electing the same liars, in different suits, every time.
As far as I’m concerned a vote for a democrat or replublican is a wasted vote because they are both the same. They aren’t intelligent enough to actually represent the people. So you hardliners can kiss my …….
This nation will fall of its own foolishness. It will just be a butt stain on history. It was founded by greed, lust, and the genocide of so many Native people. That’s right..Even the white man is capapble of genocide. Just like every other race and ethnicity on this planet. Fact is, no nation will ever be civilized as long as those that dwell in their ivory towers dictate who dies for their gain.If you think it is any more complicated than that, then you are probably one who has to weigh every word to amke sure you’re so damned politically correct.
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