Third Party & Independents Archives

The Great Divide - Part I

The new polls show 75% of Americans disapprove of our Political leaders - overall - both Democrat & Republican. This does not convince me that the country is ready to put Democrats in power. It does appear to me that the media is convinced of that from watching the pre-election coverage.

Exactly who is behind this Great Divide?

Many love to quote those from the past.
"A Nation divided ..."
"United We Stand ..."

It's time to replace ALL Politicians who put Party before Nation.

It's time to replace ALL Politicians who put themselves before the rest of us.

It's time for ALL of us to take a long look in the mirror - remember what being an American means.

Stop blaming the Politicians (usually of the other party) and the government for everything - We put them there.
They reflect the image of the people they represent.

Posted by Dawn at October 19, 2006 3:13 AM
Comments
Comment #188938

Dawn, Are you also ready to get rid of the real problem- the coprorate leaders, the special interest and the lobbyist that do their dirty work?

Posted by: j2t2 at October 19, 2006 8:14 AM
Comment #188940

j2t2:

I think we can all agree that the outlandish lobbyists are getting too powerful. Yet we also need advocates for various causes. There are “lobbyists” for issues like autism and other diseases, or who help minor causes get more publicity. We need to make sure that the rules allow for advocacy, but not for the sheer abuse of power that goes on.

Sometimes that abuse of power is undertaken in the name of good causes. There are powerful lobying groups on behalf of the environment, for instance. The cause is good, but if they wield too much power, it can turn out badly.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at October 19, 2006 8:22 AM
Comment #188948

jbod,
Certainly that is true, however the sheer amount of lobbyiest should cause one to question whether as a group they are still providing a service or a disservice to our country.
Perhaps they should be licensed after continuing education classes on ethics and the greater good of the country and as is necessary with all herds, culled regularly and restricted to limited numbers of them.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 19, 2006 9:26 AM
Comment #188951

Joe,

We need leaders that do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do.

It’s not just about the amount of lobbyist’s, it’s about the amount of money that is being spread around in the name of “special” interests.

Posted by: Rocky at October 19, 2006 9:48 AM
Comment #188964

52% of Americans believe Democrats should gain Congressional control, compared to 37% who believe Republicans should keep control.

It just couldn’t be plainer than that as far as the polls go. Republicans are in control, and 74% of Americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction which is a statement about Republican leadership.

Dawn, your fallacious argument is that we should stay with what’s bad and wrong, out of fear that what will follow will be worse. That argument would never, ever, lead to improvement or solutions. That is as bogus an argument I have every heard.

Here is a valid argument logically. Bad politicians make for our bad governance. To improve governance, the very first step is to remove the bad politicians in control of it. That by itself is not the whole answer, or solution, but, all other potential solutions MUST begin with this first step.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 19, 2006 10:41 AM
Comment #188979

Dawn,

I agree wholeheartedly!
Why?
Because that is what we were supposed to be doing all along, always!

Bad_Voters = Bad_Polticians = Bad_Government

The solution must start with Education

Why?
Take myself for instance.
I’m was part of the problem.
I stupidly voted for Bush and incubments in 2004.
I’m not totally stupid, but I voted Republican for 30 years.
Why?
Brainwashing.
Petty Partisan Warfare is VERY effective.
You know what I’m talking about.
Especially many Independents, who learned long ago that most (if not all) incubments in BOTH main parties are irresponsible.
Education is needed to overcome this brainwashing.
Many people vote the way their parents voted (at least, for a long time).
However, even this idiot (myself) finally (after 30 years) sees the decades of deterioration, and growing corruption in government is a result of continually RE-electing them; rewarding politicians for bad behavior.

No more.
From here on out, I promise to look closely at what incumbents are doing. At the moment, after looking at their records and deeds, NONE are getting my vote. After looking closely at what they have been doing, I’m ashamed at voting for any of them. And, it’s not that hard to find out. Their voting records are easy to find. Their deeds are easy to find. News reports going back for years are all over the internet.

Still, watch many continue to re-elect them, continue to pull the party-lever, continue to vote straight ticket, continue to empower the very same irresponsible incubments that are threatening the future and security of the nation, continue the blind PARTY loyalty, and continue to wonder “what the hell happened”.

Maybe, by 2008, when this illusion of a “good” or “very good” economy (financed with massive borrowing, debt, spending, and money-printing) is over. Maybe when the real consequences are felt, then more voters may finally get that education (the hard way). Then, maybe they’ll take off the partisan blinders, and stop repeat offenders; stop empowering the very same irresponsible incumbents that are selling us all out.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2006 12:22 PM
Comment #188985

The new polls show 75% of Americans disapprove of our Political leaders

The other 25% must be party members.

Posted by: TheTraveler at October 19, 2006 12:48 PM
Comment #188995

The Traveller, dead on right. Research has shown that no matter how bad American government or policy has gotten, between 24 and 26% will ALWAYS support the leadership in power. I call these the sheep! They believe in leadership, anykind of leadership, regardless of how good or bad, they just want to be led and therefore support leaders in power.

But, that also means about 75% of voters actually have a mindset capable of reason and critical review based on current events and government output. That is encouraging and no doubt accounts for the direction of all the polls we are now witnessing whether sponsored by Fox News or the Wash. Post.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 19, 2006 1:14 PM
Comment #189001

If most people didn’t have the ability to reason and make common-sense decisions most of the time, there would be no overall progress.

However, progress is 2 steps forward and 1.999 steps backward.

That 75% figure is encouraging.

But, it sounds too good to be true.

However, for this 7-Nov-2006 election, I am still skeptical that enough voters will stop re-electing incumbents to have the needed effect.

Still, it’s a good start, and the numbers of people willing to finally stop re-electing irresponsible incumbents is likely to grow even larger by 2008, because the highly probable grid-lock that will result from now to 2008 (due to a Congress that is mostly Democrat, and a Republican executive branch) will allow our problems to get worse. Also, some of these problems are so severe, it will take a long time to resolve them. These problems have inertia. They won’t be solved over-night. Grid-lock until 2008 is better than allowing Republicans to continue to abuse their power, but the probable collapse of this goldy-locks economy by 2008 will be more evident by 2008, because the consequences of so much debt, borrowing, spending, and money-printing will be felt by more Americans by 2008. The ranks of the poor will grow larger, as the middle-income-class continues to shrink, and the 1% with most wealth (40% of all wealth in the U.S.) continues to grow (we have now reverted back down to the same low levels that existed 73 years ago (between 1925 and 1933 durning the Great Depression (see graph)).

This may sound strange, but another Great Depression may be a good thing, since we only seem able to learn the hard way. Sometimes, things can’t get better until they get much worse.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2006 2:03 PM
Comment #189003

I believe there are many politicians on both sides who should not be in office.
I have and will preach to anyone who will listen that Hillary Clinton has done nothing for my state and should not be in office. I would never vote for her. Leiberman suffered for being a bad politician also.
All bad Republicans and Democrats should be removed from office.
That way the Bush administration will answer for it’s crimes against America and the world and it will not be seen as partisan revenge for the attempt to impeach Clinton.It will be seen as justice and an apology to all Americans, our allies and those who were or should be our friends and allies for the cruel, stupid and corrupt policies of the Bush administration.
I can’t recall where I heard the sentiment “Vote out Incumbents.” It must have been some blog site I’ve visited, but It makes sense to me. It should make sense to us all.
Bad politicians = bad government regardless of party affiliation.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at October 19, 2006 2:08 PM
Comment #189018

Vote out irresponsible incumbent politicians.
Keep the good politicians (if there is such a thing).
Anyone know any good politicians?
I’m sure there may be a few.
They are probably among the newest members.
Maybe a few newcomers (i.e. freshmen).
Very unlikely you’ll find many long-term incumbents.
But, are there 50, 100, or the required minimum of 268 (half of 535) in Congress?
No? Not even 268? Not even 100?

If not, then why do we re-elect them?
There’s something illogical going on.
Polls say most people believe Congress is corrupt.
But, they keep re-electing them.
Why? Brainwashing. Look at North Korea.
Have you seen the blind love that the people have for Kim Jong Il?
And the hatred they have of Americans?
It’s almost the same with Americans and THEIR incumbents.
They seem to love THEIR incumbent politician.
But, they hate YOUR incumbent politician (especially if they are in the OTHER party).
All members of the OTHER party are evil.
So, the problem is the OTHER guys’ incumbent politicians.
Not THEIR’s.
The ONLY thing that will eventually (peacefully) put a dent in that type of brain-washing is Education.
Like in the cold war, we won (in part) with information and education.
Likewise for the American people.
When Americans finally take off their partisan blinders, they will finally see with better eyes, and they will finally make better decisions.

I commend and congratulate the tiny numer of independent voters (many, not all … some are a bit whacky) who, while always vastly out-numbered, for some reason, could see and understand much of this all along, and realized that none of the parties were really very responsible. Somehow, they escaped the brainwashing. At any rate, without some independents continuously revealing the reality and truth about the stranglehold of the distracting partisan warfare, then no form of education may have never materialized. NOTE: that is not a partisan statement or any endorsement for any party. It’s merely a compliment to those independent thinkers out there that do their own thinking for themselves.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2006 3:07 PM
Comment #189080

If Democrats have ANYTHING of substance, prove it.
So far, BOTH suck, BIG time.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2006 6:47 PM
Comment #189081

Democraps used to be the party of populists.
Not any more.
Now they are just like Replicrooks.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2006 6:48 PM
Comment #189082

Andre,

I have and will preach to anyone who will listen that Hillary Clinton has done nothing for my state and should not be in office. I would never vote for her. Leiberman suffered for being a bad politician also.

Glad we agree on something.
Of course the fact that New York Republicans have no balls/political skill, combined with the fact that the national party/third parties tend to ignore the state for the most part, means she will be in office for quite some time.

Posted by: TheTraveler at October 19, 2006 6:49 PM
Comment #189091

Hey Dawn, weren’t you part of Team Red before?

Posted by: William Cohen at October 19, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #189108

I’ve personally deleted portions of my previous post since it was erased.

[Censored], d.a.n.!!! The Congressional GOP just helped the president to circumvent the law by passing legislation that does away with Habeus Corpus! These [censored] killed our Constitution entirely — something you and I both know Democrats would NEVER, EVER have done. Therefore, stop being [censored] here. Go ahead and look down your nose at the Democrats [censored], but don’t try to claim they are “just like” the GOP, because that is utter nonsense.

The reason the majority in power must go is because they are lawless crooks who have destroyed our Constitution. Period.

Posted by: Adrienne at October 19, 2006 9:10 PM
Comment #189163

Adrienne,

Politicians of BOTH parties did it.
Democrats let it happen.
Take a close look at THIS graph..
Democrats had power MUCH longer than Republicrooks.
What gave rise to the Republicrooks short time as the “IN PARTY” was Democrats that abused their power for so long.
Republicrooks certainly blew it in a relatively short period of time.
So, what is the REAL difference?
Unfortunately, what voters didn’t realize when they decided to let Republicrooks have a turn at being the “IN PARTY” for a while is that there really ain’t much difference at all.
Just look at the vast similarities.
Democrats used to be known as the party that was for the working person. Where are they now? Democrats used to get a lot of money from unions (and still do). What good did it do? Unions and Democrats abused that power, and corporations simply moved away. For that, who can blame the corporations?

BOTH are the problem.
Voters too.
Look at what BOTH have done and do (for several decades).
Pork-barrel, waste, spending, borrowing, massive debt, wars (Kennedy and Johnson’s Vietnam, Bush’s Iraq), etc..

The truth is, both parties are irresponsible, and any minor differences are meaningless, but we keep re-electing them.

BTW, that includes me. I’m one of those idiots too. I voted for Bush and his Republicrooks in 2004 (I didn’t vote for Bush in 2000). I might NOT have voted for Bush had the Democrats offerred up anything even remotely better than John Kerry. That was some great choice there, eh? In retrospect, Kerry might have done better. Who knows? That both suck. Neither care much about the nation … they care more about partisan warfare, as evidenced by the nation’s slow-but-sure decline. So, yes … I feel that my vote for Bush was a big mistake. Blame me too. I deserve it.

What is now extremely apparent is that BOTH parties are broken, both are full of corrupt, FOR SALE, do-nothing, look-the-other-way, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians. That’s simply the truth. Sorry that offends you, but it’s the truth, and the truth hurts.

What bugs me now is that Democrats are probably going to benefit from the Republicrooks bad behavior, when both parties are just taking turns, and things will simply get worse between now and 2008. Democrats are almost certain to retain incubments, and gain more seats, when what is really needed is for lots of irresponsible incubments of BOTH parties be replaced.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 20, 2006 4:05 AM
Comment #189208

Yes William.

Posted by: dawn at October 20, 2006 10:14 AM
Comment #189242

Dawn, I don’t fit in one group either. I agree that there is a tilt in some media, particularly television (i.e. Lou Dobbs and Keith Olberman)that appears to lean Democratic. While I often roll my eyes at some of their pompous BS, I want to smack Hannity and Oreilly with a two by four. But technically those are not hard news. I suspect many in the media are finally seeing a crack in the Republican PR, that was frustrating to them over the last 6 years, and are expressing some of that sentiment.

I think it is true that Democrats have been largely silent in the face of a fanatic Republican echo machine and most people are sick of it all.

I think the Dems will take the House and maybe the Senate, and Bush will lose more support and may find himself in deep political trouble (as he should in my opinion). I personally hope he fires Rumsfeld. It would be nice if he would bring Colin Powell in as Sec. of Def. , but that’s only a fantasy, I know. Time will tell if the Dems will F*** this up before ‘08.

Posted by: gergle at October 20, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #189267

The Dems will, more than likely, get too cocky too fast and bring their oppositon out in droves in ‘08.

I am just sick of the fringes on both sides AND sick of everyone playing the blame game AND sick of the idea that we should count on our government for everything AND sick of politicians on BOTH sides sneaking their pork into EVERY bill AND and and… there is much more.

The poll that says 75% are dissatisfied with the job our government does on the whole is such a crap poll … no one wnats to boot out their own.

Wouldn’t we ALL love a job where we can stay as long as we want (yeah WE vote) and give ourselves raises and perks !!

Posted by: dawn at October 20, 2006 1:07 PM
Comment #189305
Dawn wrote: I am just sick of the fringes on both sides AND sick of everyone playing the blame game AND sick of the idea that we should count on our government for everything AND sick of politicians on BOTH sides sneaking their pork into EVERY bill AND and and… there is much more.
… here, let me help you (see list).

Dawn,
Have you always been an Independent?
Yeah, it makes me sick too.
And, like gergle said, I’d also like to smack Hannity, O’Reily, and Rush with a 2x4. Their partisan spin is disgustingly slanted, and now that they are in decline, it looks less and less credible. In the beginning, some of what they said was true. The created a following. But, now it looks so has-been. Only a true hard-core, brainwashed, partisan loyalist could swallow that crap without choking on it.

Yes, there’s little doubt that Democrats will blow it. They’ll STILL refuse to pass many (if any) badly-needed, common-sense, no-brainer reforms.

If the Democrats wanted to prove they were serious, they would come up with their OWN Contract with America, and promise to do everything possible to make good on it, and pass some of these common-sense reforms, finally. Democrats had a majority for 70 years, and had ample opportunity to do just that, but they didn’t, and there’s no reason to think they will now, either.

And the fiscal situation in this country is not good, despite the spin that this economy is “good” or “very good”.
It is an illusion being funded with massive borrowing, debt, spending, and money-printing.
How long can that last?
The National Debt went from $5.7 trillion in year 2000 to $8.6 trillion in 2006 !
We are running out of time, or the consequences uncontrolled spending, debt, borrowing, waste, and money-printing will have a real potential to create an economic melt-down. Some of the damage has already been done, and we could be paying for it for decades (maybe centuries).

Posted by: d.a.n at October 20, 2006 2:51 PM
Comment #189309

“Dawn,
Have you always been an Independent?”

Yes…at heart.
You can thank Gore for my switch to Republican for awhile.

Posted by: dawn at October 20, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #189495

I can understand that completely.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 21, 2006 8:04 PM
Comment #189501

David,

You wrote:

Here is a valid argument logically. Bad politicians make for our bad governance. To improve governance, the very first step is to remove the bad politicians in control of it. That by itself is not the whole answer, or solution, but, all other potential solutions MUST begin with this first step.

I sort of agree but would skin the cat from the other end. If you get rid of bad politicians, (easier said than done, since the bad ones are the ones that get / raise the most campaign money), but if you get rid of the bad ones, and just put new good ones into a corrupt and corrupting system then you are just going to corrupt the new ones. It is like trying to defeat the terrorist in Iraq, you just create more. The “bad” politicians all started off as good politicians, but then they swam in a cesspool and now they smell like crap. Send new good politicians swimming in a cesspool and they will wind up smelling like crap too. Special interest lobbyist are important. Our governing leaders need to listen to and understand the legitimate concerns of special interest groups. For example, I want my leaders to be “business friendly” - to address the needs of big business - I just don’t want big business to be able to “buy” my leaders.

We need public financing of elections. That needs to be first and foremost - numero uno. Then let the lobbyist get back to the business of lobbying and out of the business of buying political influence. You cannot put our leaders in the position of begging their corporate oligarchic masters for campaign contributions and then expect them to be independent and put the interest of the common man first - ain’t happenin. You cannot tell our leaders that if they want to get elected they have to sell out and then blame the ones who get elected for selling out. We must have public financing of elections. We will have no democracy until we do

Posted by: Ray Guest at October 21, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #189543

Ray, I agree money in politics is the problem. I have never understood how public financing of political campaigns would alleviate this. It just seems like a subsidy that does nothing to level the playing field and is a waste of public money.


By the way, you creeped me and my cat out.

Meow.

Posted by: gergle at October 22, 2006 1:04 AM
Comment #189590

gergle,

Sorry gergle, I would never skin your cat. Dawn’s cat??? Here kitty, kitty, come to the Democratic dog… I would just wag my tail and lick it, then probably mark it as my territory…

Public financing of elections takes away, or at least reduces, the economic power of the Corporate Oligarchy over the electoral process, which would give our elected officials a chance to stand for what they believe instead of what will get them enough money to get reelected.

Posted by: Ray Guest at October 22, 2006 1:30 PM
Comment #189605

David

But, that also means about 75% of voters actually have a mindset capable of reason and critical review based on current events and government output.

A gross over-estimate, ignoring the proportion which are blindly contrary.

We, the people, have a choice of evils in the vast majority of our elections. And we are given either limited information or excessive disinformation to help us choose the lesser evil.

That is encouraging and no doubt accounts for the direction of all the polls we are now witnessing whether sponsored by Fox News or the Wash. Post.

Understandably wishful thinking. Term limits, please. Protect us from ourselves.

Posted by: ubermike67 at October 22, 2006 3:13 PM
Comment #189622

Ray:
“Public financing of elections takes away, or at least reduces, the economic power of the Corporate Oligarchy over the electoral process, which would give our elected officials a chance to stand for what they believe instead of what will get them enough money to get reelected.”

Very well said. I agree completely.

“I would never skin your cat. Dawn’s cat??? Here kitty, kitty, come to the Democratic dog… I would just wag my tail and lick it, then probably mark it as my territory…”

My dog Beatrice, a half beagle/half pitbull Libertarian, would definitely skin Dawn’s cat in a split-second if she ever got the chance. My other dog Ripley, half greyhound/half pitbull, is an extremely sweet far-left Green Party Liberal who would immediately fall in love with Dawn’s cat, but since he’s a tad hyper, and really likes to play, he’d no doubt still try to chase it up a tree. :^)

Posted by: Adrienne at October 22, 2006 5:55 PM
Comment #189628

Ray Guest,

That may work (i.e. publicly funded elections).
Something needs to be done.
Perhaps donation limits should be vastly reduced?
Regardless of whether elections are publicly funded or donation limits are vastly reduced, there needs to be increased transparency and verification of campaign spending, since 90% of elections are won by the candidate that spends the most money.

At any rate, government is FOR SALE.
Politicians are bought-and-paid-for.
But we re-elect them for bringin’ home the bacon.
We contribute to their campaigns.
But only 300,000 people in the U.S. donate 83% of all federal campaign donations (of $200 or more; i.e. $2.0 billion of $2.4 billion). That’s $6667 per person from only 0.15% of all 200 million eligible U.S. voters. The remaining 99.85% of all eligible U.S. voters only donate an average of 50 cents per person. So, who do you think incumbent politicians cater to?

Send new good politicians swimming in a cesspool and they will wind up smelling like crap too.
Good analogy. Especially since newcomers are always vastly out-numbered by incumbent politicians that like things just the way they have perverted them, and won’t allow any reforms that might reduce the incumbents’ power, opportunities for self-gain, upset their big-money-donors, or reduce the security of their cu$hy, coveted, incumbent seats of power.

That’s why Eduation is so important.
Without it, voters will unwittingly continue to let THEIR party and the OTHER party take turns, resulting in a 90% re-election rate.

If voters want more responsible congress, re-electing irresponsible incumbents will not accomplish it.

Democrats want to portray the whole problem as a Republican problem, and vice-versa, and the circular pattern continues, and politicians love to perpetuate it with distracting petty, partisan warfare. If only voters could see how they are being used, and reject it. Simply stop re-electing irresponsible incumbent politicians (regardless of party).

Posted by: d.a.n at October 22, 2006 7:12 PM
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