Third Party & Independents Archives

I'm Convinced - NOT

The best way to prove that one is peaceful??
Hijack a plane.

Apparently a few people were so upset about what the Pope said last month... They HIJACKED a plane.

Okay. They surrendered peacefully, from what I've heard, BUT... They HIJACKED a plane!!!

They couldn't fire off an e-mail or send a letter un-inviting the Pope to Turkey. The only way they could deliver the message was by HIJACKED plane.

Here are some quotes from the story:
"The airline spokesman said the men commandeered the plane to protest the pope's visit to Turkey, and because they were angered over the pope's recent comments quoting a 14th century scholar about Islam."

"Many Muslims were angered by the pope's speech at a German university last month, saying it was an attempt to portray their religion as innately violent."

Okay. It appears that no one was harmed - BUT they HIJACKED a plane!

....and they wonder why the 'West' has doubts about Islam being a Religion of PEACE.

Posted by Dawn at October 3, 2006 1:24 PM
Comments
Comment #185930
Earlier reports on Tuesday that the hijackers were protesting Pope Benedict XVI’s planned visit to Turkey were apparently incorrect; authorities now say that the hijackers have requested political asylum.

From your link.

Posted by: womanmarine at October 3, 2006 3:15 PM
Comment #185936

I think we can all agree that hijacking planes is bad.

Posted by: Trent at October 3, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #185949

Trent: true enough. I was just pointing out facts as stated in the linked article.

Posted by: womanmarine at October 3, 2006 4:57 PM
Comment #185976

Yes its dumb and hypocritical. Who cares? There are dumb people of every race religion and ethnicity. I guarantee there are in fact more dumb ones than there are smart ones.

So what does that prove?

Posted by: iandanger at October 3, 2006 7:21 PM
Comment #185979

HAH! as it turns out the hijacker was a Christian and his message to the Pope was that he was seeking to escape from turkish military service.

Clearly he is mentaly unstable.

Posted by: iandanger at October 3, 2006 7:31 PM
Comment #185985

HAH?
Hmmm. “Mentally unstable” Christian hi-jacks a plane and it ends peacefully.
Poor, victimized (by the US I’m sure) muslims hi-jack planes and 3000 Americans die.
HAH indeed!

The jist of the post questions how can people view Islam as a religion of peace, when violence is how they express themselves.
Whether they are doing the violence themselves or just ignoring it, muslims are at fault and need to fix their image.
Unless its not a religion of peace. Who knows, maybe suicide bombings, deadly riots and murderous hi-jackings really are about peace and all of us evil Americans just can’t see it.

Good post Dawn.
As shown, its always easiest to ignore the truth in order to create ones own utopian reality.

Posted by: kctim at October 3, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #185993

woman marine,

Considering I was using a story that was evolving, I did not know CNN would have inaccurate details when I used that link.

If you believe that we are shown that Islam IS a religion of peace on a daily basis… please provide a link.

As you know… our media goes after the bad story and many times portrays it worse than it is.
Why? Because they are after ratings. Bad news gets more than good news. I’m sure you were aware of that also.

I recently heard that the ‘moderate’ Muslims are using their mosques to preach tolerance and peace.
At the same time we are told that the moderates have to keep their mouths shut for fear of DEATH.
So…which is it?
Preaching love in the mosques & hate in the madrassas?
Blame the Pope, blame the West, blame the little green men… it’s much easier than taking responsibility for being part of the problem.

Did Hamas not blame Rice today for trying to split their people?
A country with no real economy … and who do they blame for their inability to pay their employees? Never themselves. Their politics is hardly any different than ours. If it goes wrong, or you can’t get anything done - blame the other guy.
What is happening there just proves to me that cutting the aide off works better, in some situations, than continuing to provide it.

Posted by: dawn at October 3, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #186002

kctim,

Thats pretty flawed logic, there are a LOT of violent christians. Beyond that the entire story is funny because the angry muslim that hijacked a plane to protest the popes remarks was actually a mentaly ill Christian looking to get out of military service. Kind of a serious screwup on the part of the speculative news agencies.

Now, onto your accusations about Islam being a violent religion. Some Muslims, in fact, are violent, so are many Christians. Wanna know why? Because people are violent. People are stupid, violent, primal animals, no matter what their culture. Religions are supposed to provide organization and structure to human life, but sometimes it doesn’t work. There are violent Christians and Muslims and violent groups with no religious afiliation. Communist groups that are atheists have commited acts of terrorism, so have animal liberation groups who are motivated out of an extreme sense of compassion.

People suck, get used to it, lets start addressing the real problems (dangerous unstable dictatorships abusing their people), because Islam is NOT the cause of terrorism. In fact, the majority of suicide bombings in the last century were commited by secular organizations. Religion isn’t the cause of violence, its just another avenue for people’s violence to be directed.

Posted by: iandanger at October 3, 2006 8:42 PM
Comment #186013

Dawn,

It’s easy to characterize a religion or group of people by the actions of a few. And there aren’t any news stories when just the ordinary happens.

Posted by: Trent at October 3, 2006 9:14 PM
Comment #186043

Dawn:

If you believe that we are shown that Islam IS a religion of peace on a daily basis… please provide a link.

Where did I say that?

I gave you the courtesy of reading your post and went to the article you linked to. If you want to misinterpret my intent, go right ahead. Just don’t put words in my mouth.

Posted by: womanmarine at October 3, 2006 10:21 PM
Comment #186066

iandanger, excellent comments.

unhappy people, unfufilled people, threatened people, these are the causes of terrorism and all manner of other violence against other people.

The great prize to be won in the Middle East is a great middle class amongst its citizens, where the majority have freedom to the practice of their religion, employment which provides for their family needs, and hope that their children will enjoy more liberty, peace, and prosperity than the parents.

Anyone who believes that prize can be won with destruction and war, hasn’t a clue. Anyone who doesn’t recognize that this is the prize, is doomed to promulgate war and destabilization. Anyone who believes middle classes can be created and imposed from without, in the absence of the will of the people, is no student of history or anything else of national social importance, like economics or political science.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 3, 2006 11:29 PM
Comment #186082

Sorry Dawn. I don’t see where Muslims hijacked that plane. According to the article the hijacker didn’t want to serve in the Turkish army because he isn’t Muslim.
It seems your giving the Muslims a bad rap they don’t deserve on this one. If your going to give a religion a bad rap for the hijacking it seems to me it would have to be the Catholics as it appears he’s Catholic.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 4, 2006 12:06 AM
Comment #186105

Yes. It’s me that is giving the Muslims a bad rap on this one - even though I got the story from CNN -‘The Most Trusted Name in NEWS’.

I wonder how many people heard the story the same way I did and, almost 24 hours later, haven’t had time to get the update.

Besides this one, how many stories are there on any given day that are innacurate because they are jumped on and reported as they occur?
We seem to have to check back later and find out if facts have changed quite often these days. (Which can be difficult because it doesn’t get the same attention.)

Sorry womanmarine if I put words in your mouth.
Communicating via posts in a thread can be a challenge.

Posted by: dawn at October 4, 2006 7:39 AM
Comment #186128

Ian

We are NOT at war with the violent Christians, communists or atheists, we are at war with the violent Muslims. They have openly declared war on us and they have acted on it.
In order to properly “address the real problem” we have to be willing to look where the problem originates from and in this war, it originates from those who follow Islam.
Unlike those little groups you mentioned, violent followers of Islam have taken it to the next level and they deserve “special” treatment and our undivided attention.

Posted by: kctim at October 4, 2006 9:37 AM
Comment #186139

Again Kctim, you are wrong. We aren’t at war with anyone. This whole war movement is part of a broader illusion. Terrorism is not a serious threat within this country. You’re more likely to get killed driving your car than you are to die in a plane for any reason. Terrorism makes a great political issue, but in reality, our “on the offensive” attitude is making things worse.

Check out John Mueller’s piece in Foreign Affairs, a journal attached to a bipartisan think tank of the same name. As well, one of the major news organizations did an in depth report to try and find even one sleeper cell in this country, and it failed miserably. There is no evidence we are personally under threat of any great attack, and there is a reason. Why is that? Because Muslims don’t hate freedom, and there is a large, happy muslim community in this country. (which is also why I don’t understand the paranoia people express towards Muslims, I mean, discriminating against them is just a path down the road toward the oppression they are free from here, which would put us right at square one)

While you think we are at war with a religious ideology, we are at war with a political group. As we have discovered in time, Al Qeada is a disperate network of organizations in dictatorships around the world. They set up cells in oppressive countries as an attempt to remove the oppressive secular dictators and replace them with a religious government, which they believe is necessary to purify the people of that nation. The best way to go after these groups is to STOP giving financial, military, and political support to dictatorships in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, and others. This “war” you speak of is not about religion, it is about power and economics.

These sorts of issues always take on cultural and religious undertones, but that is irrelevant to the problem. This is just like Vietnam or other uprisings against an oppressive social order, and we are again making hte mistake of supporting the social order instead of fighting for it to change in a manor that most benefits the individual in those countries.

Posted by: iandanger at October 4, 2006 10:53 AM
Comment #186143

I’m Catholic, which meant quite a few years ago, we were the religion to beat up. In some years it’s Fundamentalists, in some its evangelicals. Sometimes its the televangelists. Truth is, if you want to be an asshole, or a violent person, you can probably interpret your holy text as appropriate.

One only has to look at Japan to see that even a non-Christian religion can be perverted to the service of violence. For years, there was a variety of Buddhism, in addition to the animist state religion of Shinto, that was turned towards the militaristic support of the Emperor, and his adoration as a literal God.

Buddhism, as it is, is one of the most peaceful religions out there. It’s the cultural context that made it otherwise.

Our religion is not immune. Within the five books of the Torah, and much of its history, there is room for interpretation that is heavily militaristic. Within the pages of the New Testament, people can draw equally militaristic visions out of the Revelation of John, and different things that Jesus said.

Religion is human. If we imagine ourselves as junior Gods, inheriting the infallibility of our deities, we will do great harm in our self-serving interpretation of the message of the great religions.

It’s silly to imagine that all Muslims should be judged on the basis of what a few do. The Muslims might as well ask all Christians to be sorry for Bush’s actions.

Your actions are your responsibility. The more maturely we deal with the deeds of a few Muslims, the greater the chance that we will be forgiven for our minority of transgressors, and that they will find common cause with us in opposing their extremists.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 4, 2006 11:13 AM
Comment #186163

The muslim extremists have declared war on us Ian, that is a fact that cannot be disputed.
Some view it as no big deal, others view it as it is and want to take the threat seriously. The just “live with it” and the be “on the offensive” attitudes of the people show that difference. But that has nothing to do with whether Islam is a religion of peace or not.

We put ourselves at risk by ignoring the religious connections and peaceful followers of Islam do the same when they choose to ignore.
To view terrorists groups as “political groups” is only half right. They are religous groups based on religous ideology who exploit the political climate of the area.

“This “war” you speak of is not about religion, it is about power and economics”

Ok, I can agree that power and economics play a big part but religion plays an equal part as well. Ignoring the religious aspects is the same as ignoring the social effects which bring about terrorism.

The vast majority of Americans know that this is not a war against Islam, but a war against the radicals who follow it.
But everytime muslims do something violent because of a cartoon or because of a historical quote, they weaken that belief. And, IMO, that is what Dawn was trying to get at. If Islam is a religion of peace, the why do they use violence to prove it?

Posted by: kctim at October 4, 2006 12:37 PM
Comment #186165

Stephen, its time for Muslims to “maturely” deal with the evil deeds of a few Muslims.
Your always talking about how the Republicans need to “clean their own house” if they want trust and respect, shouldn’t we ask the same from the followers of Islam?

Posted by: kctim at October 4, 2006 12:44 PM
Comment #186166

dawn
I take it you saw a different story than the one you linked. Did that one say that the hijacker was Muslim?

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 4, 2006 12:45 PM
Comment #186182

kctim,

you bring up a great point. The United States is the greatest (militarily, economically, and in all but a few areas, in personal freedom) country in the world. Terrorists are not a major internal threat because the vast majority of the people here appreciate this country. There are crazy exceptions, like McVeigh, but the real problem is people who view us as violent and imperialistic because we support oppressive regimes that deliver us the oil we need to survive. This very small group is part of a smaller group that want to use guerilla warfare (terrorism) to overthrow oppressive secular dictators. They believe that if they set up an islamist government in the dictators place, then the sins of the people (which led to the oppression in the first place) can be cleansed. There is a minority within that group that believed attacking the USA would further their goals, and they were proven completely wrong on September 11th, when we wound up making the middle east worse for everyone by not committing enough troops in Afghanistan, then not committing enough troops in Iraq. We increased economic support for the same brutal despots that the people hate, and as such, the world’s opinion of us has gone down.

So, the small group of terrorists failed because we went on the offensive. But by throwing off the balance of power completely without thought to the repercussions, we have made the entire region less safe. We still fund oppressive governments, we still let Saudis invest billions in US bonds, we still buy trillions of dollars in oil, and generally have failed at resolving the regional issues.

That is not to say there wasn’t a plan. The neo-conservatives believed there would be a domino effect after the Iraq invasion, they believed what they were doing was going to bring democracy and stability to the middle east. They were wrong, now its time to pick up the peaces and try something else.

Terrorism is not the problem, its the root causes we should be worried about. Democracy is a natural vaccination against terrorists (except for a small percentage of people) because in order for it to stick there has to be a high enough GDP and political elites which are capable of running a country. These factors automatically decrease the number of people who are so angry with their government that they are willing to take up arms.

I’m not scared of terorrists, and I don’t think Americans should be. I’m worried about global warming, warfare, starvation, and other issues which are truly massive threats to human life, as well as rights and liberties which the government cannot take away (Because they didn’t grant them) according to our system.

So I say ditch the stupid restrictions on travel, dump the patriot act (and come up with a bill that actually networks the law enforcement agencies, since the patriot act has failed in that regard, its primary purpose), and lets start asking people to sacrifice in areas where it will really help. Lets start a new apollo program to design cars which produce no harmful emissions and don’t run on fossile fuels or inefficient ethanol from corn. Have them revolutionize solar cell technology and lets subsidize solar panneling for houses. We are daily sitting under massive amounts of energy, why shouldn’t every person sell power back into the grid.

Sollutions are out there to our real problems, the real threats, and terrorism is distracting us from that.

Posted by: iandanger at October 4, 2006 1:19 PM
Comment #186261

Ron,

The story on that link is nothing like the one I originally quoted from.
I can’t even bring the original up in my history folder.
The link is dated the 3rd and the page that comes up is dated the 4th.
Too bad I didn’t quote the title - can’t remember it exactly.
It certainly didn’t mention anything about a Christian not wanting to be in a Muslim Army.

Posted by: dawn at October 4, 2006 4:35 PM
Comment #186274

(I am a high school student)

I think that it is unfair to the followers of Islam that they are portrayed as a dangerous and violent religion. The people that do certain acts like hijacking a plane for example is a very extreme and radical act. Those are exactly the kinds of people that do it, the radical extremists. Taking the ideas of this one person or small group of people and saying that it is an adequate representation of all people who happen to be a part of the same denomination, is really unfair.

Another point that I have is that all of these actions are also really in the eyes of the beholder. In our western society we are given the preception that people of Muslim faith are violent because that is the information that is thrown at us. I bet that there are plenty of followers of Islam that think that Christianity is a violent religion because we are the ones that are invading their countries and causing the upheaval of their normal way of life which leads to deaths of their fellow citizens. I don’t doubt that some would go as far to say that the Chistians are trying to conduct another Crusade against the follwers of Islam in an act to gain oil.

Once again I really feel that it is unfair to depict these people as followers of a violent, blood-thirsty religion.

Posted by: Brad Murphy at October 4, 2006 5:11 PM
Comment #186447

Brad,

That is not what I was trying to do.
The peaceful Muslims are being held hostage by the radicals - fear of death for them and/or their families.
It only takes a few with guns and swords to hold hostage a whole community.

Posted by: dawn at October 5, 2006 8:26 AM
Comment #187828

There are ignorant people in every race and religion. The truth is that the media has a major influence in the way we percieve these issues. They are able to label a particular religion or race, since the public people usually do not have any inside information and only know what we are told to belive.There is no doubt that both religions have followers that are a menace to society. Both Christianity and the Muslim religion are part of human society and as we all know, society is far from perfect.

Posted by: Filipe Ribiro at October 12, 2006 4:00 PM
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