Third Party & Independents Archives

Time Out

I’ve not commented on the issues going on in the Middle East much. My disgust with both sides has really caused me to start becoming hard hearted to the whole situation. But a discussion with my wife about the subject caused me to see the issue in a little different light that has me thinking of what I now believe is the only real way to resolve the whole affair.

The dialog coming out of the Israel and the Palestinians reminds me of two children arguing over a toy. Neither one will listen to reason and both think that they are right, so much so that they are willing to fight each other over it. Most everyone who has had children or had siblings growing up know exactly what I'm talking about. The usual result is that the parents will let this go on, hoping that it resolves itself on its own. But eventually the parents have enough and say something along the lines of 'Ok, that is ENOUGH. You, in this corner and you, in that corner.'

I think we are getting to that point in the Middle East. I believe it is time to forget about diplomacy between the two sides. It is just not going to work. We've held talks and meetings and summits and still we can't get past the basic issue that the Israelis are mistreating the Arabs in Israel and the Palestinians are willing to employ the most evil of practices, killing innocent people for the sole purpose of striking terror into the hearts of their enemy, in response.

What it comes down to is the need for a strong UN (which is hoping beyond hope) to sit the leaders of the two sides down and instead of saying 'let's try to work it out' they need to be told that 'We are going to come in and separate you two until you can learn to get along'.

My proposal would be this. Get the Security Council to agree that this needs to occur, which is probably where this idea will fail. But if we can pass THAT hurdle, we are then on to establishing a Chapter 7 resolution that states thus:

The land of Israel will be separated down the middle, 50% to Israel and 50% to Palestine. A 2 mile DMZ will be placed in the middle of the land and martial law will be in effect in both countries until such a time as the two parties can prove to the world body that they can exist side by side without violence. The city of Jerusalem will no longer belong to either party, ever, but will become a 'free city' that will be under the control and administered by the UN Security Council. This will not require signature from either side but will take effect 180 days after Security Council passage. Once the two countries have shown that they can exist side by side without violence for a period of five years then the DMZ can be lifted and martial law will be relaxed. If this does not occur by 2020, the land will be redistributed to the UN permanently.

Now, I know it is a bit draconian, but I think it's time. The issue that has existed in this area has caused strife and suffering and terrorism all throughout the world, not just in the land of Israel. It really has become a world problem and it is time for the UN grow a pair and put these two groups into a corner until they can learn to play nice with each other. So much time and energy spent. The amount of propaganda on both sides fueling hatred and violence all over the world has only worsened the atmosphere of international cooperation, international trade and retarded the enlightenment and advancement of humanity at a time when we should really be understanding that we all have much more in common than we have differences and we should be embracing those and not focusing on anger and hatred that no longer can be adequately blamed on any single event or side.

In other words, 'I don't care who started but WE'RE going to finish it.'

Any other solution will never be trusted or work. Only the world community, together, will ever have a hope of achieving any lasting result because unless we can stop the violence for a period of time to give the people who live there a chance to experience life without the violence, there is little incentive to convince those who have been raised with terrorism on one side and persecution on the other will never know peace and harmony.

This solution seems to have worked for the issue in Kosovo. While NATO still has a force there we have successfully ended MOST of the violence. And while both sides are still having issues learning to live in peace and put away their ingrained hatred for each other, I think there is a real chance of future peace in the area. I think it's time to learn from this action and try it where it really needs to be tried.

Posted by Rhinehold at August 10, 2006 11:52 PM
Comment #174732


It makes perfect sense, which is why nobody will ever agree to implement it.

We live in a world where America “grew some” and the rest of the world decided we’re nuts, so to speak.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 12:10 AM
Comment #174758

Rhinehold, what you propose is precisely what is being attempted. So far, the hurdle appears just a tad too high. Could be weeks or decades before that hurdle appears to be low enough for both sides to get over.

Hezbollah is in the driver’s seat on this. If they don’t agree, the conflict continues. Intervention in conjunction with the Lebanese Army, without Hezbollah consent, will only lead to civil war. Not just civil war, but, Middle Eastern regional war.

Peacekeeping forces won’t cut it. There is no peace to maintain. They can’t halt attacks by Hez. into Israel if Hez is not willing to cease fire. This is the problem with escalation which Israel partook in after the kidnapping of their soldiers. Ratcheting back is nearly impossible. This is one of the main reasons Israel committed an all out offensive which could only end in their defeat in Lebanon, or the eradication of Hezbollah from striking distance territory. I suspect however, that Israel engaged before answering the all important question. What does Israel do after they have back Hezbollah up into Lebanon far enough that they can’t strike Isreali territory. Remain as occupiers and engaged in war for years against all of Lebanon? That would make Israel vulnerable to other groups and nations who may take advantage of Israel’s quagmire in Lebanon.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 11, 2006 4:58 AM
Comment #174762

The Israelis offered the carrot by pulling out of Gaza. Instead of the Muslims being thankful for the diplomatic offering they stupidly took the gesture as a sign of weakness.

Now they get the stick.

Israel is obviously far from perfect with their actions but they at least have a vision of a viable future.

The views from Hezbollah and Hamas are totalitarian in nature with very little respect for that thing most people like to call “freedom”. They have no real ability for diplomacy or self-governance. Thus I do not see any type of future which I would endorse where Hamas or Hezbollah are the slightest bit significant.

Posted by: Ken Strong at August 11, 2006 7:39 AM
Comment #174779

I think it’s time to send both parties to the their rooms without supper. And I’m pretty there’s gonna be no TV either.

The way I see it, the little brats have gone from arguing over a toy to forming gangs on the playground, and they’re now messing with kids who had nothing to do with this. Both sides are being inhuman - and both sides need to be slapped hard (without this sad civilians trying to live in the middle of all this crap.)

Also, let’s take our anual financial aid to Israel, double and give each party access to this cash… but if anyone (ANYONE) commits a violent act, the other side gets a transfer of a large amount from the other’s account.

If one side continues to commit violent acts, we send Jesica Simpson of a 6 month tour in that country - with madatory attendance.

(btw - my company has a Bush doll that says dumb quotes when you push a button. He’s been in the corner - in time out - for the past 3 years.)

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 9:06 AM
Comment #174782


I am not sure the UN seizing property as a last resort is something I or many others could get behind. I agree with your proposal up to that point.

David R. Remer,

Let us not forget that the Israeli soldiers were not actually kidnapped. They were “captured” by Hez a few miles into Lebanon. Hez is splitting hairs with this one, but they are technically correct.

Posted by: Chi Chi at August 11, 2006 9:13 AM
Comment #174800

First things first Rheinhold. If there were such a resolution put to the UN, the US would veto it, as they invariably have done for at least 20 years on issues that would restrain Israel.

Secondly, there is already a formula for the resolution of this conflict. It’s called UNSCR 242. Anytime that there have been serious attempts on the Palestinian side to move towards a resolution on this basis, the Isreali have engaged in targeted killings (“of terrorist leaders”) in order to torpedo such moves. The reason is simple. Israel, in contravention of the Geneva conventions, has massively settled the occupied territories. This is a thinly disguised strategy to annex these Arab Palestinian lands. It goes hand in hand with the widespread Israeli policy of making life so miserable and unbearable for Palestinians in the occupied territories, that they will up and leave. Instead of that, their pain and impotence in the face of such inhumanity has led them to seek solutions in “Terrorism”, which I believe has been something of a disaster for them, and allowed them to be cast as the evidoers in order to camoflague the Isreali policy of landgrab by oppression and settlement.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 10:48 AM
Comment #174807

Said without any sarcasm: Let’s build another security wall. Let’s put 15,000 UN soldiers in a DMZ. Let’s provide satellite reconnaisance with 24 hour Predator drone air support against the Hez missles.

tony - Let’s make it really cruel, send Brittany along too!

Paul - It’s hard to believe anyone who can read and has access to the internet is ignorant enough to believe that. Do you know any history prior to 11-11-04?

Posted by: Dave1 at August 11, 2006 11:08 AM
Comment #174810


Peace at any cost. It won’t work. It never has and it never will. Not in the Middle East, Not in Isreal, not in Palestine, not in Lebanon and not in Bosnia or Kosovo.

I heard something on the TV that was very relevant.

The reporter expressed that while we are remembering something that happened 5 years ago, Arabs are remembering something that happened 500 years ago.

Do you really think that they will just drop their weapons and live in peace because we “say so”? If so, what’s happening in Iraq?

I heard an interview with a Kosovar woman who said that if the UN pulled out, the war would start right back up again. After all, they’ve been fighting there since 1389. 1389! And you expect them to just drop their weapons and start dancing around a May pole? They’ve been fighting…Ottoman Turk against Balkan…for over 600 years!

It ain’t gonna happen.

You want peace? A lasting peace?

1.) Disband the UN and pull out the troops.

2.) Don’t give one drop of help to EITHER side. Stay out of it.

3.) Refuse…REFUSE…to allow any person from EITHER side or faction to enter the country.

4.) Let them kill each other until they themselves decide to stop.

5.) Don’t ever…ever again involve ourselves in ANY territorial or religious fighting between two countries.

Posted by: Jim T at August 11, 2006 11:12 AM
Comment #174812

And which countries should send troops in there to be attacked by both sides? Neither Israel or the Palestinians will go for your proposal. They just might join forces long enough to send the UN packing with it’s tail between it’s legs.
How would ya like it if the North and the South were going at it and the UN did what your proposing here?

Posted by: Ron Brown at August 11, 2006 11:25 AM
Comment #174833

Ron Brown,

I think you’ve made the correct comparison. If the North and South were fighting again and someone else came in to try to stop us from fighting, then both North and South would temporarily join forces to oust the third party. But that is the U.S. That’s the way we’ve always been. People have seen our country as weak because we constantly bicker with each other. Nothing could be further from the truth. We LOVE to argue with each other…and if someone sticks their unwanted nose into our fight, then they had better be prepared to get a big black eye when we both turn on them.

Posted by: Jim T at August 11, 2006 12:38 PM
Comment #174834

The UN taking property, now that is a joke. They can’t handle peace keeping if it was handed to them on a silver plater, and myself am tired of the US being the one that supplies most of the material and bodies for their so called peace keeping efforts.

On Kosovo, yes we haven’t heard much lately on it, but when NATO moves out guess what, they will start going at it again, and oh they still are, just not like it was before.

As far as a DMZ, take a look at Korea it is still divided and basically it is still at war, because there was a cease fire, nothing that offically ended the Korean War (wait that was another UN/US majority war). So you split Israel and give half to the arabs. You know what it will end up like palstine is right now. They will want the rest of the land. They will also, as someone else said take it as a sign of weakness and continue with the terrorist attacks against Israel.

Now after the info that came out that said some of the pictures coming out of the conflict have been doctored to make them looking worse then they are, how much of the information we are hearing is truth or not.

Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hezoballah completely but I hope they make it where they will think before they do something again.

Posted by: KT at August 11, 2006 12:45 PM
Comment #174837

Jim T,

“If the North and South were fighting again and someone else came in to try to stop us from fighting, then both North and South would temporarily join forces to oust the third party.”

Except you forget that the South was actually actively courting both England and France for support, which resulted in a blockade from 1861 to 1865.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 12:54 PM
Comment #174842


“Except you forget that the South was actually actively courting both England and France for support, which resulted in a blockade from 1861 to 1865.”

No, I haven’t forgotten that. Lincoln pulled a very big bluff with England and France wasn’t in a position to help much (except to give shelter to Southern blockade runners).

Posted by: Jim T at August 11, 2006 1:12 PM
Comment #174845

The South was actively trying to get help from England and France. And if they had joined the South it would have been by invitation of the South. I doubt the South would have fired on them.
But if either country had come in and tried to force an end to the war they would’ve found out really fast the folly of their move.
If the UN tries to force the Palestinians and Israelis to stop fighting it will find out real fast the folly of their move.

Posted by: Ron Brown at August 11, 2006 1:29 PM
Comment #174851


The only way I foresee that kind of action being realistically contemplated is if there were two major world powers each on opposite sides of the fence, and each willing to protect the truce terms with their own military threat. In other words, another cold war…only this time we put the world’s most notorious hate-mongers in the middle and hope they don’t provoke either side.

If Iran, Syria, Russia and China were to back Palestinians, and the US and UK were to back the Israelis, then the mere threat of nuclear war MIGHT deter unnecessary terror and aggression. France can do their regular middle man thing. I just can’t see the world powers agreeing to hold that region hostage in such a scary and unpredictable way.

Obviously the best solution is to have the UN or some respected International Org declare a truce and breaking the truce would immediately mean regime change, even by means of nuclear bombing if necessary. However, if there is one region that might actually directly solicit a nuke attack, this would be the one. Playing a trump card may sound like a better, more extreme way of handling an extreme situation, but are we really ready to go all out?

I have to admit, after so many years of waging a half-hearted and tactically doomed war for a few years, “all or nothing” sounds like a nice change of pace. We should have been forced to ask this question from the start, but instead Rummy made it sound like a cake-walk and people bought it. Israel made the current Lebanese campaign seem like a cake-walk, and people bought that too (myself included).

I whole heartedly agree with one point: we should begin to threaten Israel’s financial and military aid if they do not cooperate with a REAL peace treaty, and we should make sure a similar system is put in place for Palestinians. ANY unpunished attack on the other side means giving up government aid for a month. When every rocket fired means no paycheck for half of the population, I think we’ll start to see some popular resistance to those who do nothing but hurt their own people by using pure violence.

Personally though, I’m with you Rheinhold in that I would love to see a resolution saying that ANY attack later shown to be perpetrated or planned or financed by either side will mean an immediate dispatching of our largest nukes directly on Jerusalem. We’d never get the world backing we’d need to pull that one off, but if we did, I’d bet we’d have information galore on ANY attack immediately after, if not before it occurred.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 11, 2006 2:01 PM
Comment #174853


If that’s true, the only other option is to put a big barrier around the whole area and take their gloves off and let them ‘have at it once and for all’.

Of course, that may be just what they want, who knows.

So you split Israel and give half to the arabs. You know what it will end up like palstine is right now.

No, because you won’t have Israeli military men kicking and beating Palestinians, they won’t be knocking down their homes and they won’t be subjegating the entire population to 2nd class citizen status. Most of the palestinians do not want war, they want to live in peace as well. But they are caught in a vicious cycle that they can not control between the leaders of each radical side looking for ways to either destroy Israel or permanently own Palestine.

To suggest that most Palestinians want Israel to be destroyed is to be completely ignorant to the realities of living in that area, but if the Israelis keep treating as 2nd class citizens they are going to start supporting those who will fight back, albeit with horrible and disgusting practices.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 2:08 PM
Comment #174856

Well, it looks like the UN has finally proposed their resolution that will ‘resolve the issue’ and much as I feared it is going to be another Chapter 6 resolution and not a Chapter 7…

We’ll see, it just seems to me that no one is really wanting to give these two brats a time out and separate them long enough for peace to possible develop.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 2:16 PM
Comment #174892


Your were saying? Some data on Hezbollah (from their treatise):

our struggle will end only when (Israel) is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.
We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev’s and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.

Posted by: Dave1 at August 11, 2006 4:41 PM
Comment #174895

I’m sorry, Dave1. I was talking about the Palestinians. You know, that large group of people who are being held under the boots of the Israeli government.

You are talking about Hezbollah, the militants who are bent on Iraeli destruction and will never be satisfied until that occurs, they are a much smaller but well funded and armed group that operate in Lebanon, not in Israel’s West Bank…

I am talking about dealing with the issues of Israel and Palestine. This will not end other groups who are enemies of Israel but will eliminate the main reason most Arabs are uneasy with Israel in dealing with Arabs. If we could clear up the Palestinian mess we could focus on the smaller issue of Hezbollah with HELP from the Arab community, turning the world against Syria and Iran instead of giving many countries a motive to support Syria and Iran’s desire to continue propping up these hate groups.

So… what is your point again?

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 4:49 PM
Comment #174919

And how does a civilized society justify this cowardly act?

The basics: civilians, UN peacekeepers and Lebanese soldiers were fleeing souther Israel (checked out and approved by Israel forces to leave) and on the road, they were attacked by at least one unmanned drone aircraft, killing at least 6 civilians and injuring over 30. The Israeli military had check this convey to make sure no Hezbollah militants were hiding among these civilians… so they new ALL these people were innocent civilians. Yet, on an open road, they were attacked from the air.

Again, how could anyone justify this atrocity? And no, between hezbollah and Israel, neither hold the moral high ground. There will be no winners with this… no gain for Israel, but plenty of recruitment material for the terrorists.

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 6:13 PM
Comment #174933

Wow, Dave, you have a great affinity for ignoring half of my argument and choosing only that you find ‘infuriating’ and then attacking it. Of course, you are not alone.

Let me try this again, I want to make sure you catch it this time…


Now, onto one specific…

Do the Israelis send suicide bombers into the pal schools

No, they send in the military to demolish and displace thousands upon thousands of palestinians, block them from being able to feed their own families, starve them to death, beat them to death and otherwise create an atmosphere much like the Nazi German society in which they were treated much the same way. You’d think that they would have learned something from that history but it is obviously forgotten.

And they do it ‘in order to protect us from terrorism’, which is the same reason that the CURRENT US government is doing the same thing, going down the same road until the same thing happens here.

You need to get a grip and stop your defense of Israel for a second to see that you are blinding yourself to their wrongdoings.

And, as I have stated many many times, if the Palestinians, through Hamas and Hezbollah, had never set down the road of terrorism, they would find a lot more sympathy from me. Unfortunately, those groups are the worst in this situation, far worse than what Israel is doing, because they are targetting innocent people with death, not just hopelessness, starvation and humiliation.

But only by a little bit. They both are complete bastards and the ones who are at the bottom of this little stage show we’ve seen played out for the past few decades are the palestinians who can’t work, can’t feed their families and are basically ‘the revenge of the Holocaust’ as I see it. It’s almost as if the Israelis are ‘getting even’ for what was done to them those years ago by doing the exact same thing, save the gas chambers, that was done to them.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 6:51 PM
Comment #174936

Not schools, but they do blow up hotels…

“In 1946, Jewish terrorists agitating for their own state in British-occupied Palestine blew up Jerusalem’s King David Hotel, killing 91. Two years later, an independent Israel was established. “There were a lot of innocent British women and children killed there,” says Hanson. “But in the end, it worked; the British left.”

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 6:56 PM
Comment #174942

And lets not forget Deir Yassin either tony, and the following;
August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 13,1947. Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the “Carmel Brigade” attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

1947 — 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel’s borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the “Israeli Forces” totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 — February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 — May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.


November 25, 1940. In September, 1940, around 3,000 Jewish refugees from Vienna, Prague and Danzig were attempting to reach Palestine. In a convoy of four river steamers, they set sail down the Danube and reached the Romanian port of Tulcea where they transferred to three Greek cargo ships named Atlantic, Pacific and Milos. Conditions on board these three ships were horrendous, reminiscent of Japanese hell-ships later in the war. Eventually the ships reached Palestinian waters, but the British Colonial Office refused them permission to land. It was finally decided to deport the refugees to the island of Mauritius where a special camp was to be built. The three ships were then brought into Haifa harbour where the liner Patria was berthed. The refugees were then embarked on the Patria and as the last passengers from the Atlantic were coming on board, a tremendous explosion ripped the liner apart. The death toll amounted to 267 refugees killed. The explosion was the work of the Jewish underground army, the Haganah, who had meant only to damage the ship to prevent it sailing but had miscalculated the amount of explosives needed to disable the ship. Many say that this was no miscalculation and was deliberate murder of Jews by Jews, in an attempt to influence British immigration policy to Palestine.


The first act of air piracy in the history of civil aviation was carried out by Israel, in Dec. 1954, when a civilian Syrian airliner was forced down in Tel Aviv and its passengers and crew held for days, despite international condemnation.

In 1968, Israeli commandos blew up 13 civilian airliners at Beirut airport in Lebanon.

The first deliberate shooting down a civilian airliner was carried out by Israel, when a Libyan airliner was shot down by Israeli jet fighters over Sinai, in Feb. 1973, on the direct orders of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, killing all 107 of its passengers and the entire French crew.

Yes, it seems the Zionists were indeed very effective mentors to todays terrorists.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #174950


While I think your vision of Israel and Palestinians as irrational fighting children is on spot, I don’t know that there exists any parents around. It’s a bit more like the Lord of the Flies out there. The US has simply sided with Israel and is no longer able to claim being an honest broker. The UN wll never be able to broker peace here. We’ve allowed the bully to become too large. Not even NATO, ala Kosovo, would work here.

Religious fanaticism further clouds the issue. I believe we are on a course of west vs. east war which may cause enough pain to create an opening for peace. I think a nuclear exchange will occur before the end of my life. Man is about war. It is how he settles disputes. America no longer has a conservative political base. The Republicans are not the party of isolationism, nor are the Dems. We haven’t shed serious blood in over 60 years. There is not enough fear of war to avoid it.

Posted by: gergle at August 11, 2006 7:41 PM
Comment #174952

Paul in Euro -

History can be very embarassing or humbling, but you have to be prepared to be human.

I bet if we look far enough into American history, we might even find terrorist activites there… ya think?

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #174957

Tony, isn’t it all part of life’s rich tapestry, or as Wordsworth put it, “the still sad music of humanity”

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 7:57 PM
Comment #174961

I always find it sad, but ironic when people call horrible acts of violence “inhuman.” It seems to be at the heart of what defines us as human…

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 8:05 PM
Comment #175059

Ah, sanity in the form of Tony and Paul again. Well researched and informed opinon is a joy to read.

Dave1 - stop dehumanising the other side. It takes two to really get a fight going your naievity is embarrassing. Please, get your news from multiple reputable sources and think critically about it.

Re: Bush Administration -
No wonder US foreign policy has been such a mess of late. Colin Powell didn’t call the neo-cons “fxxking crazies” for nothing. The lunatics are running the asylum.

Posted by: abhcoide at August 12, 2006 8:26 AM
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