Third Party & Independents Archives

You Can Thank The Feminists

I’ve always wondered if the feminist movement did more harm than good to their fellow sisters. To some feminists I am a women-hating misogynist just for asking. To be sure, women have come a long way because of feminism. Now they can get abortions, work 9-5 jobs, and die on the battlefield as a member of the US. Military. And according to a new study, the more hours a woman works the more she suffers from a host of detrimental effects.

Whatever it takes to reach equality:

LONDON (Reuters) - Working long hours has a greater negative impact on women than men because it makes them more likely to smoke, drink coffee and eat unhealthy food.

Both sexes consume less alcohol if they spend more time working, researchers said on Wednesday, but toiling extra hours makes women crave unhealthy snacks.

"Women who work long hours eat more high-fat and high-sugar snacks, exercise less, drink more caffeine and, if smokers, smoke more than their male colleagues," said Dr. Daryl O'Connor, a researcher at Britain's Leeds University.

"For men, working longer hours has no negative impact on exercise, caffeine intake or smoking," O'Connor said in a statement released by the Economic and Social Research Council, which funded his study.

O'Connor's team of scientists were studying the impact of stress on eating habits. They looked at what causes stress at home and at work and how people react to it.

The results show that one or more stressful events such as making a presentation, a meeting with the boss or missing a deadline was linked to eating more between-meal snacks and fewer or smaller portions of fruits and vegetables.

"Stress disrupts people's normal eating habits," he said.

The people who were most vulnerable were so-called emotional eaters.

"These individuals have higher levels of vulnerability and tend to turn to food as an escape from self-awareness," O'Connor said.

"When they feel anxious or emotionally aroused or negative about themselves, they try to avoid these negative feelings by turning their attention to food."

The same stress also impacts the household when a working woman takes it home. It leads to unstable relationships. It leads to divorce. It leads to children spending more time in daycare when both parents are away from the home.

And as more women enter the workforce an increasing number enter the prison population - at a higher rate than any other demographic. More women are seeking employment opportunities than ever before, but more are also seeking criminal opportunities.

But it's worth it to feminists. They still have work to do, and probably won't rest until gender-segregated bathrooms are a thing of the past, every NFL team has at least one female linebacker, women are on the front lines in battle, and life-expectancy becomes indistinguishable between the genders.

I admit I'm not a woman, and I have no idea what it's like to desire an unrealistic level of "equality" between the sexes. But in light of everything that has happened as a result of the feminist movement, was it really such a bad thing being a housewife who spent more time running a family than working overtime in a stressful office?

Posted by Scottie at July 12, 2006 4:09 PM
Comments
Comment #166861

I think you are missing the point, Scottie. It was never about having every woman working out of the house doing an office job or serving in the military. It was about women having the freedom to choose to do so.

Undoubtedly, many women think of that last question you pose and decide to remain a housewife. Regardless of this, it is a weak argument at best to suggest the feminist movement was a waste.

Posted by: Zeek at July 12, 2006 4:35 PM
Comment #166863

American society was a lot better off when women stayed in the home. They held their families together, raising their children to have the kind of values that keep a society healthy.
The job of housewife and mother is the most important job in society and we have all suffered the consequences of marginalizing it.

Posted by: traveller at July 12, 2006 4:41 PM
Comment #166866

Scottie,

“Now they can get abortions, work 9-5 jobs, and die on the battlefield as a member of the US. Military.”

Now women can expect more from life than being barefoot and pregnant.
Now women don’t risk death by attempting to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

It’s also about the possibility of self realization for women, and prior to the feminist movement, that was something that almost never happened, with women trapped in the home.

Would you deny them that right?

Posted by: Rocky at July 12, 2006 4:49 PM
Comment #166881

Scottie,

I’ll admit it too… it’s time to come out of the closet— I’m not a woman either.

You can divide feminism into two separate ideological categories: the leftist elite agenda and the mainstream meme of equality.

The leftist elite agenda has more to do with radical leftist politics than equality. The mainstream meme of feminism is about actual relationships between men and women.

The difference is that the leftist elite often use an issue to promote their agenda, to make demands, to agitate against the imperialist, oppressive, exploitative society and the actual issue of relationship between men and women is secondary to the ‘movement’.

The average person just gets the topical footnotes version and may accept the premise based on that.

Posted by: esimonson at July 12, 2006 5:41 PM
Comment #166887

What BS. You don’t want women to work or choose whether to carry a baby because they may crave snacks that aren’t good for them? You are off your rocker.

Posted by: Max at July 12, 2006 5:59 PM
Comment #166899
the leftist elite agenda

And that agenda is what, exactly?

Posted by: JayJay Snow at July 12, 2006 7:18 PM
Comment #166903

Finally someone gets it. Stress, bad food, too much coffee, too many cigarettes.

Welcome Ladies.

Posted by: DOC at July 12, 2006 7:52 PM
Comment #166923

traveller said— “American society was a lot better off when women stayed in the home. They held their families together, raising their children to have the kind of values that keep a society healthy.
The job of housewife and mother is the most important job in society and we have all suffered the consequences of marginalizing it.”
Posted by: traveller at July 12, 2006 04:41 PM

So in that you mean since women are now in academia, as students and professors, which often leads to delaying marriages is a bad thing too you huh?

Posted by: Richard Rhodes at July 12, 2006 9:11 PM
Comment #166926

To Traveller:
1. Do you have children, and if so do you have any daughters?

2. If you had a daughter and she told you she wanted to be a doctor would you tell her no because she needs to “stay in the home” (as you put it) and that is more important?

Posted by: Richard Rhodesr at July 12, 2006 9:15 PM
Comment #166927

Men who attack feminism are afraid of women. It’s so obvious as to be laughable to women these days. Men who speak and write about feminism as if it’s still the 1970’s are the funniest of all — because such men seem to always overlook the fact that it now takes more than one income for the majority of American’s to make ends actually meet. Working is no longer some “choice” that us gals make just to annoy these types with our sassy and upstart brand of independence and self-reliance.

On the other hand, men who talk about this issue the way that Zeek and Rocky have, are clearly not afraid of women — this makes them seem more intelligent, well-adjusted and highly evolved — not to mention a lot more sexy and desirable to women! :^)

the leftist elite agenda

Jay Jay:
“And that agenda is what, exactly?”

Any excuse to demonize liberals, and he’s all over it like flies on sherbet.

Posted by: Adrienne at July 12, 2006 9:19 PM
Comment #166930

Adrienne

As a guy who has been with the same woman for almost 26 years, I can tell you plain that I am afraid of women. All experienced men are afraid of women. We have reasons.

Posted by: Jack at July 12, 2006 9:29 PM
Comment #166936

Jack:
“As a guy who has been with the same woman for almost 26 years, I can tell you plain that I am afraid of women.”

Jack, you’ve got five more years with your wife over the time I’ve been with my husband. I can tell you plain, that I’m still deeply in love with that man, and that I honestly adore the majority of men in general — though not so much when they act like they’re afraid of me.

“All experienced men are afraid of women. We have reasons.”

Care to elaborate? What exactly are you afraid of?

Posted by: Adrienne at July 12, 2006 9:55 PM
Comment #166939

Adrienne

A joke (mostly).

One thing I will say seriously. A man learns after some years not to try to explain too many things to significant others. There is a gender difference. Early in my relationships, when a woman would talk about a problem with her friends etc, I would propose solutions. I found that was not what she wanted. I still don’t understand the details, but I can get along pretty well now.

Posted by: Jack at July 12, 2006 10:04 PM
Comment #166944

Having been married for the last 37 years I can tell you first hand there is a difference both physical and mental in the make up between men and women. I’m not going to say that women can’t be strong physically or psychologically. But there are physical limitations to what a women can do compared to what a man can do.
Women also think differently than men. And this is good. My wife sees the same things I do in a different way and can bring up points that I don’t see. This has lead to some good decisions and some bad ones. But so has my way of seeing things.
My wife worked part time while the kids were at home. The extra money sure came in handy when you consider the military pay scale. Her working full time would’ve brought in more but she wanted to be home when the kids were. After our youngest started college she went to work full time. Now with the grand kids here she’s going to go back to part time.

After 37 years of marriage I have figured out only one thing about women. You’ll never figure one out. Just kidding.

Posted by: Ron Brown at July 12, 2006 10:21 PM
Comment #166950

“Early in my relationships, when a woman would talk about a problem with her friends etc, I would propose solutions. I found that was not what she wanted. I still don’t understand the details, but I can get along pretty well now.”

:^) Glad to hear it, Jack.
I find men’s tendency toward finding solutions a very endearing quality — but I can tell you, it just doesn’t seem to help us.

A few of those details as a bit of a public service announcement:

First off, a man’s solution is often not a womans idea of a solution. You guys just do things differently — deal with things in ways outside of how we tend to go about them.
Secondly, when we talk about our problems, we’re more often looking for emotional and moral support — this gives us the energy and wherewithal to see our own way through to the other side of that problem.
Thirdly, just listen, and then tell us how wonderful and smart we are, and that because of that, we’re sure to find a way to set things right in our world.
Frequently men don’t understand this about women — they assume that when we tell them what’s eating us that we are somehow asking them to provide the perfect answer. Not true. Furthermore, you men can sometimes get very offended when we don’t seem to respond to your suggestions as though you’ve produced the magic lightbulb we’ve been missing directly over our heads. You shouldn’t do that — it only gives us yet another reason to get upset — our making you angry or offended that way.
All of the above I have learned from my many years with my husband. He too, used to think I expected him to be my champion every time I had a problem. I had to spell it out just like this — and now, like you, he gets along pretty well. ;^)

Posted by: Adrienne at July 12, 2006 10:43 PM
Comment #166953

Adrienne
All of the above I have learned from my many years with my husband. He too, used to think I expected him to be my champion every time I had a problem. I had to spell it out just like this — and now, like you, he gets along pretty well. ;^)

I’m guilty of this myself. When we were first married I wanted to solve every problem my wife had. A lot of my friends did the same thing. I reckon it comes from the natural tendency men have to protect women. I soon sorta learned when and when not give advice. And I mean sorta, I still screw it up now and again. Most the time she doesn’t want advice.

Posted by: Ron Brown at July 12, 2006 11:08 PM
Comment #166958

“Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars”, by John Gray, has done more for me than just about any book on the subject of the differences between men and women. It has it’s gross generalizations and should be viewed more as a description of “feminine and masculine”, or even less generalized, “Yin and Yang” energies.

In time, women will come to realize that the redefinition of the roles of women in society have resulted in the redefinition of the roles of men in society.

Posted by: DOC at July 12, 2006 11:21 PM
Comment #166960

I don’t have a problem working with women. Having served in the military even I found the same percentage of good women as there were good men.

The problem I see with the feminist movement is purely economic. We are a nation of supply and demand. More women in the workforce means more employees which means less, or at best, stagnant pay. It also had us destined for today’s current situation which is that most middle class families now need 2 incomes to maintain a similar lifestyle as their middle class parents when only one parent worked.

There’s nothing to be done about it & nothing we should do about it … but to say the feminist movement has been a complete blessing to the country is as wrong as it can be. Now, everyone go to work.

Posted by: Ken Strong at July 12, 2006 11:31 PM
Comment #166962

Scottie,
Rather than working from the general to the specific, from women in the workplace to the role of a woman in a marriage, try looking at it in the opposite way. Consider what you would want to see in a marriage, and apply that towards generalities.

Personally, I always knew I wanted to marry a strong woman. I always knew I wanted a companion, an equal.

I will be married 26 years as of next month. For our 25th anniversary we went to New Orleans, only to flee before the wrath of Hurricane Katrina. This year we will stay closer to home, something nice and safe- maybe a campout on Mt St Helens. :-)

My wife has worked for most of our marriage. When we raised our children, we were fortunate enough that we were able to alternate taking time off for the first few years to raise the kids. We used daycare, and it was a good experience for the kids. We share chores pretty evenly. Sure, it would be preferable if one parent can be home, of course, but that has to be compared with the advantages of the additional income and personal satisfaction that a career can bring.

Facing the prospect of being an empty nester means it is not enough for a spouse to have spent a life raising kids and take care of the house. A woman needs more- or at least, the opportunity to pursue more in the workplace, and to do it on an equal basis with males. Too often, women who have chosen to be homemakers find themselves without control of family finances, without direction & with limited prospects, vulnerable to the vagaries of middle-age.

Everyone has different needs and expectations when it comes to a spouse. I have been very, very fortunate.

If you view a woman as an equal in marriage, as a companion and partner, the implications of that view in the workplace become obvious.

Posted by: phx8 at July 12, 2006 11:40 PM
Comment #166963

Ron,
Congratulations! 37 years of marriage is a truly wonderful accomplishment. You’ve obviously have to have learned a lot, and been a very decent guy overall since you’ve managed to keep your wife by your side for all of those years!

Doc:
“In time, women will come to realize that the redefinition of the roles of women in society have resulted in the redefinition of the roles of men in society.”

Is that what John Gray says in that book? I’ve never read it, though I remember friends of mine telling me they considered it very helpful to them.
Personally, I hope men don’t change all that much, because I really like them the way they are. I think a lot of women probably feel the same way, too. Honestly, I believe most of us just want men to not patronize us — to give us respect as human beings who can be as intelligent and fully capable as yourselves.

Posted by: Adrienne at July 12, 2006 11:52 PM
Comment #166965

Ken - Economically, women prevented the collapse of the country and helped men win WWII, both literally and in kind. Looking beyond the industrial revolution to 1945 and later, women have been an integral part in the absolute soar of our economy. Men can make it, but it takes both men and women to sell it, and it the buyers in most cases are….women.

True, you can’t buy a decent car now for the same price you could buy a 3 bedroom house in 1964, but I will say one thing. Our economy as it relates to the global economy would be half of what it is without them.

Posted by: DOC at July 12, 2006 11:54 PM
Comment #166966

phx8, well said. And congratulations to you, too.

Posted by: Adrienne at July 12, 2006 11:55 PM
Comment #166969

Richard,
I have a son in medical school. My wife stayed home and created a stable, loving environment for my son to grow up in. It was a mutual decision by my wife and me. He wasn’t raised in daycare.
My son has strong values and a good work ethic because he grew up seeing how hard his mother and I worked to be able to raise him on a single income. We all had to do without some material things because of it. The spiritual rewards are incalculable.
She did the lion’s share of raising him and did an outstanding job. He’s a far better man than I’ve ever been. The home she created helped to keep me on the path I needed to be on, too.
A woman who works outside the home can’t create that kind of environment and we see the consequences in the world around us. The stress in marriages, often ending in divorce, the selfish, bratty kids, the materialism, the crime, the lack of respect.
I’m glad my wife and I chose a different path. Until the day she died she never expressed any regret.
If we had a daughter we would have taught her to be independent of mind and strong in body and spirit, just as we did with our son.

Posted by: traveller at July 13, 2006 12:14 AM
Comment #166977

Adrienne - No. That was mine. Your posts reveal a good spirit, so I will post to you, and if eavesdroppers benefit. Well. Better!

I’ve read it every two years since it was published. I always find something new, and educational. It’s not a dry read, it’s rather fun, but emotional as well. It never leaves you quite the same as before the read.

Men are becoming increasingly disenfranchised by women.

Todays normal American married woman has so much to juggle that she has become the “Super-Archetype” of the men of the past. The fact that this would hurt a man is so incredibly hypocritical that it defies reason, but it does.

As women change in society, men change as well. The igorant men continue to attempt to modify their women into Stepford Wives, while the same number of ignorant women want their men to attend some strange sorority-girl-talk-party. Truth is that these are game intended to prevent loss, and both sides are equally scared.

Posted by: DOC at July 13, 2006 1:05 AM
Comment #166980

No true man wants to win at ultimate loss. No true woman wants to lose at ultimate gain. Live as you will. Love as you will.

Posted by: DOC at July 13, 2006 1:35 AM
Comment #166988

Eric, we are over here plotting the leftist agenda. Please come by and join our coven. No conspiracy theorist allowed, though. They might reveal our plot.

I just don’t understand why those stupid chicks keep wanting the right to respect. Kinda like those fags I guess.

Posted by: gergle at July 13, 2006 2:49 AM
Comment #166993

Yeah…It’s just stupid chicks and fags. Ignore us if you need to.

Posted by: DOC at July 13, 2006 2:59 AM
Comment #167056

Doc:
“Adrienne - No. That was mine.”

Ah. Sorry about that.

“Your posts reveal a good spirit, so I will post to you, and if eavesdroppers benefit. Well. Better!”

:^) Thanks.

“I’ve read it every two years since it was published. I always find something new, and educational. It’s not a dry read, it’s rather fun, but emotional as well. It never leaves you quite the same as before the read.”

Sounds very interesting. I’ll have to remember to read it — just as soon as I’m done reading John Dean’s latest book: “Conservatives Without Conscience.”
(*If any conservatives are reading this, don’t be overly offended by Dean’s title, it’s simply a take on Barry Goldwater’s well-known book “The Conscience of a Conservative.” Dean if you’ll remember, is a Goldwater Republican, and not only was Goldwater helping him on this book before he died, but Dean dedicated this book to him.)

“Men are becoming increasingly disenfranchised by women.

Todays normal American married woman has so much to juggle that she has become the “Super-Archetype” of the men of the past. The fact that this would hurt a man is so incredibly hypocritical that it defies reason, but it does.”

I don’t think feminism ever set out to disenfrancise men, or hurt them. Nor do I believe the majority of women ever desired to be “Superwomen.” The whole idea was that we could work together as equals, share a mutual respect for each other, and mutual esteem for our accomplishments.

“As women change in society, men change as well.”

Like I said, I hope you guys don’t change all that much. A person losing a prejudice shouldn’t automatically mean they have to leave aside all the unique characteristics that make them who they are. And personally, I think the world will quickly become a very boring place if men and women start becoming too much alike. That’s a more wholistic approach, isn’t it? That our differences can actually help each other, and then add up to more than the sum of the parts.

“The igorant men continue to attempt to modify their women into Stepford Wives,”

I don’t appreciate the men here who are saying that women have to stay home in order to produce wonderful children. To me that seems a sweeping generalization. It’s also quite an unfair guilt-trip to lay on women who have no other choice than to work to support their kids.

“while the same number of ignorant women want their men to attend some strange sorority-girl-talk-party.”

Those ladies must be perpetually frustrated then — because guys tend to hate long sessions where everything is nothing but talk. In my case, after about five minutes, I notice his eyes begin glazing over, which means I’ve got to save the rest of whatever I’ve got to say for another time! :^)

“Truth is that these are game intended to prevent loss, and both sides are equally scared.”

Sounds to me like you might be right, Doc.

Posted by: Adrienne at July 13, 2006 11:15 AM
Comment #167074

Adrienne
Thanks. Don’t seem like 37 years. I’ve known her sense she was 12. And have loved her from first sight. She’s sure enough an angel to put up with me as long as she has.
We’ve both had to learn a lot. But it’s more than worth it.
One of the secrets to a long and wonderful marriage is respect. You gotta respect your spouse and her/his feelings and opinions.
Love goes a long way and will over look a whole heap of things. But if you don’t have respect for your spouse and her/his feelings and opinions it’s gonna be a very long and rough row to hoe.

Posted by: Ron Brown at July 13, 2006 12:17 PM
Comment #167087

My mother worked, not to raise our family’s lifestyle, but to put myself and my younger siblings through parochial school.
While we were in grade school she was the school nurse, and was also extremely active in the PTA.
When we reached high school she worked the graveyard shift, and slept while we were at school.
Even though she worked, she was still committed to making sure her 4 children got a good education and 3 of us went on to collage.

My wife of 26 years and I don’t have children, but I would like to think we would have created the same environment as my parents.

I think the feminist movement was all about women being able to realize that there was more to life than being a homemaker. I don’t dismiss those that would want to be stay at home moms, but women should be allowed, and encouraged to follow their dreams as well, whatever they are.

I disagree that women working is the cause of most divorces. I think that the main cause is immaturity and not taking the time to know just who your partner really is before making a life long commitment. I knew my wife 9 years before we were married, and there were no secrets.

How many of today’s couples that divorce can say that?

Marriage is hard work, the first five years are easy, the next 10 not so much, but after that our relationship has only grown better and better.
I think loving someone is more about a deep friendship than anything physical.

The brain, after all, is the largest erogenous zone in the human body.

Posted by: Rocky at July 13, 2006 1:06 PM
Comment #167255

Men who attack feminism are afraid of women.

Maybe some are, but certainly not all. Many are simply tired of sweeping comments about the fallibilities of men. Like the one above.

Posted by: Wulf at July 13, 2006 6:18 PM
Comment #167258

Also, with regard to military service, it must be nice to be able to choose whether to serve, but not to have to register for selective service and be exposed to the draft. That’s not equality.

Posted by: Wulf at July 13, 2006 6:21 PM
Comment #167286

Wulf,

I would say, IMHO, that men that question the role of feminism certainly have issues with women.

For too long the role of women had been one of subservience, and support of the male in the “family” setting. That’s just not true any more and there are guys out there that just can’t handle that.

You know, that whole “honor and obey” thing.

That “All men are created equal” statement doesn’t just apply to men.

Just like “manhole” cover.

Posted by: Rocky at July 13, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #167297

Rocky, again, that’s a sweeping statement. It may be true of some men, or it may even be one of many issues for a given man. But when a statement is as broad as yours or Adrienne’s (the one I quoted), I think it loses legitimacy.

And frankly, in my experience, most men see feminists as women who hate men and speak in sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Posted by: Wulf at July 13, 2006 7:45 PM
Comment #167299

Wulf,

“And frankly, in my experience, most men see feminists as women who hate men and speak in sweeping derogatory generalizations.”

Speaking of sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Posted by: Rocky at July 13, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #167314

Rocky, if you don’t understand what the little caveats mean, don’t let it bother you.

Posted by: Wulf at July 13, 2006 8:50 PM
Comment #167319

Wulf,

No offence meant pal, but you just used a sweeping derogatory generalization to condemned a group of people for making sweeping derogatory generalizations.

I fail to see the hugeness of your logic.

Posted by: Rocky at July 13, 2006 9:03 PM
Comment #167330

Rocky, I get what you are saying, but let me spell out the issue from where I stand. Adrienne said “Men who attack feminism are afraid of women.” No caveat, just a blanket statement of supposed fact about all men.

Your comment has a caveat – the “IMHO” lets us know that it is being presented only as an opinion, and not as something you expect us treat as hard fact. And this is a forum for airing opinions, so that’s fine – but I do think it is an overreaching opinion that men who question the role of feminism certainly have issues with women. Certainly? I just don’t see any basis for an opinion that is so… certain. I question the legitimacy because my experience (caveat #1) has shown that most men (caveat #2) see feminists in blanket terms as women who hate men and speak in blanket negative terms (i.e. not because they have issues with non-feminist women). Sure, it’s ironic that they see feminists this way, but in my experience, this is much more the case than their all being “afraid of women” or certainly having issues with women (as opposed to feminists).

If the presence or absence of caveats does not affect what the statements mean to you, well, it should. That’s what they are for.

Posted by: Wulf at July 13, 2006 9:36 PM
Comment #167332

To clarify the clumsy sentence structure, that last comment should say,

Sure, it’s ironic that they see feminists this way, but in my experience, this is much more the case than their all being “afraid of women” or certainly having issues with women (as opposed to their having issues with feminists in particular).

Posted by: Wulf at July 13, 2006 9:38 PM
Comment #167348

Wulf,

I am sure that there are some “feminists” that have issues with males. I have met some, I’m pretty sure living where she does, that Adrienne has as well.
That said, as a 53 yr old male that has been around the block and met a lot of feminists, both male and female, and I think the males you speak of have a misunderstanding of what the feminist movement was about, and while you speak of “most of the males”, I also think that, even as a generalization that is in error.

Feminism was/is about the right to be equal, plain and simple, and when the Equal Rights Amendment was allowed to fail, some women got a bit more strident in their efforts, and frankly, I don’t really blame them.
To be sure, there are pundits that will say otherwise, but the bottom line, those same pundits have their own agenda.

Posted by: Rocky at July 13, 2006 10:05 PM
Comment #167385

Let me more specific.

I want my wife to be a strong woman. I travel a lot and there are times she needs to stand up for herself, and she does this admirably.
I also want my wife to have an opinion, and to stand up for that as well.

We make decisions together, she has her strong points, I have mine.

I think that sometimes men see a strong woman as a threat, I see it as an asset.

Posted by: Rocky at July 13, 2006 11:09 PM
Comment #167399

Wulf, you’re very funny.
Look, when men attack feminism, it conotes a fear. Of Something. There can be many and various reasons behind such a fear — which is exactly what keeps that statement from being a sweeping generalization. I could sit here and spell all these fears out in detail, and clarify things for you until my fingers are worn down over my keyboard, but why should I bother? I’ll stick by my shorthand statement — and no doubt you’ll be sticking with your own.

Rocky:
“I am sure that there are some “feminists” that have issues with males. I have met some, I’m pretty sure living where she does, that Adrienne has as well.”

Not very often, but yes, unfortunately I have. I’ve never had any use for warped, twisted hatred. It’s such an ugly and pathetic thing — whether it comes from men OR women. Thankfully that attitude coming from women seems to be in a pretty slim minority. These days the same sort of attitude coming from men is in a minority as well, though perhaps not quite as slim.
Time will no doubt remedy that, I think.

“Feminism was/is about the right to be equal, plain and simple,”

Yes. But some men are incapable of viewing it that way. That equality, the idea that we needed to demand our rights and would not be deterred from having them any longer was, and sometimes still is, a threat to some American men. On the bright side, and luckily for us, there are also plenty of reasonable, considerate and caring guys like yourself in this world!

In closing, I’d like to make mention that all of the men who’ve not attacked feminism in this thread, and who have given thoughtful and interesting answers all seem to have been happily married for many years. Why am I not at all surprised? :^x

Posted by: Adrienne at July 13, 2006 11:47 PM
Comment #167400

Thank you Feminists! You are one of the Axis of Equality!

Posted by: JayJay Snow at July 13, 2006 11:48 PM
Comment #167402
In closing, I’d like to make mention that all of the men who’ve not attacked feminism in this thread, and who have given thoughtful and interesting answers all seem to have been happily married for many years. Why am I not at all surprised?

Adrienne,

Well I am not married, that would be illegal, but I got your back girl!

Posted by: JayJay Snow at July 13, 2006 11:51 PM
Comment #167404

“Well I am not married, that would be illegal, but I got your back girl!”

Thanks, Jay Jay! If I could, I’d happily throw some rice or rose petals at your wedding. Hopefully time will remedy that, as well. :^)

Posted by: Adrienne at July 14, 2006 12:01 AM
Comment #167409

I think the males you speak of have a misunderstanding of what the feminist movement was about

Oh, absolutely. And I wouldn’t limit that just to males.

Posted by: Wulf at July 14, 2006 12:21 AM
Comment #167411

Adrienne,

You don’t want to throw rice!

The pigeons will eat it and explode!

Posted by: Rocky at July 14, 2006 12:22 AM
Comment #167412

Wulf, you’re very funny.

I try.

Look, when men attack feminism, it conotes a fear.

I do not recognize this as a truism, as it is written. But after your last reply to Rocky, I think I understand better what you mean. If you only mean feminism as the right to be equal (which is what the word should mean), then I do agree with you. True equality is a major threat to the world as some men want it, and this is especially true overseas.

But in America, the term “feminism” is not popularly understood in the narrow sense you and Rocky are using it. It is so widely understood to mean something more angry than this, that I would not use the word when trying to convey the right to be equal.

There are plenty of reasonable men in this country who attack the caricature of feminism that some women become – the man bashing, college campus version of the word. The rejection of what those women stand for need not spring from fear, as it is certainly not about equality.

Posted by: Wulf at July 14, 2006 12:25 AM
Comment #167413

Rocky,

If I ever get married, exploding pigeons will probably be the least of my worries.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at July 14, 2006 12:25 AM
Comment #167485

Rocky:
“Adrienne,
You don’t want to throw rice!
The pigeons will eat it and explode!”

Damn! Forgot about that…
Quick, help me gather them up. I’ll make… a spicy Thai peanut sauce! We’ll skewer and grill the poor exploded little things as an apetizer for Jay Jay’s reception!
Tastes just like chicken, right?

Jay Jay:
“If I ever get married, exploding pigeons will probably be the least of my worries.”

You’re not to worry over a thing — Rocky and I will have it all under control. ;^)

Wulf:
“But in America, the term �feminism� is not popularly understood in the narrow sense you and Rocky are using it. It is so widely understood to mean something more angry than this, that I would not use the word when trying to convey the right to be equal.”

Yeah, the word Feminism has been demonized — just like the word Liberal has been. I don’t buy that crap. I use both words proudly — in defiance of these silly games that conservatives always play in an attempt to shame us into submission.

Posted by: Adrienne at July 14, 2006 10:48 AM
Comment #167529

If she acts like a man, treat her like one.

Posted by: Darrius Cole at July 14, 2006 1:09 PM
Comment #167564

Darrius Cole,

“If she acts like a man, treat her like one.”

Yessir that makes perfect sense.

Not.

Posted by: Rocky at July 14, 2006 3:08 PM
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