Third Party & Independents Archives

It's Our Fault if Mexicans Die

Mexico, which opposes any U.S. militarization of the border despite the fact that its side is crawling with soldiers, has actually threatened to sue us in our own courts if the National Guard become “directly involved in detaining migrants.”

So why does Mexico oppose the National Guard on the border? Because the presence of troops would force illegal migrants to travel on more perilous routes to avoid detection - in order to break federal law. If anything were to happen along to way to these immigrants, it would of course be our fault.

It's hard to believe after reading this AP story that President Bush is still best buddies with the president of our neighbor to the south:

"If there is a real wave of rights abuses, if we see the National Guard starting to directly participate in detaining people ... we would immediately start filing lawsuits through our consulates," Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez told a Mexico City radio station. He did not offer further details.

Mexican officials worry the crackdown will lead to more deaths. Since Washington toughened security in Texas and California in 1994, migrants have flooded Arizona's hard-to-patrol desert and deaths have spiked. Migrant groups estimate 500 people died trying to cross the border in 2005. The Border Patrol reported 473 deaths in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30.

Juan Canche, 36, traveled more than 1,200 miles to the border from the southern town of Izamal and said nothing would stop him from trying to cross.

"Even with a lot of guards and soldiers in place, we have to jump that puddle," said Canche, referring to the drought-stricken Rio Grande dividing Ciudad Juarez and El Paso, Texas. "My family is hungry and there is no work in my land. I have to risk it."

In Nuevo Laredo, across from Laredo, Texas, Honduran Antonio Auriel said he would make it into the U.S.

"Soldiers on the border? That won't stop me," he said. "I'll swim the river and jump the wall. I'm going to arrive in the United States."

Look, if you want to swim in my pool against my wishes and jump the fence to get in, don't expect me to be responsible if you drown. The plight of many Mexicans to seek a better life is an understandable one, but once you take your first step into the desert you take on a great risk that you alone decide to try.

The United States government is charged by the Constitution to protect this nation and has the wherewithal to do so. Our commissioned officers have sworn to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." And who are these foreign enemies? Terrorists. Terrorism as we all know, is a real threat, and one of the more practical solutions to keeping malicious invaders out of our country is to maintain an awesomely fortified border.

Unfortunately a vast number of migrants who seek only a better life get caught up in the mess, but our resolve must remain absolute. Our government is bending over backwards, trying to figure out a fair way to assimilate migrants into our society. But those who are jumping the gun take a deadly risk, and many will run into tragic consequences.

The threat of lawsuits is simply absurd. The U.S. government should be condemning them as pure foolishness and should be making it loud and clear that our federal courts will not compensate the parties of criminals who ignore our laws when they venture illegally into the United States.

Posted by Scottie at May 17, 2006 1:59 PM
Comments
Comment #149011

Mexico receives billions in US dollars returned to her economy from legal and illegal immigrants working in our country. Mexico is a pressure cooker of poverty, despair, violence and corruption, and the U.S. is the steam pressure release. Vincente Fox knows full well, that if illegal immigration is halted at her northern border, and drug exports to the U.S. are also seriously curtailed, the pressure in Mexico will build toward another Revolution and/or Coup attempts if real reforms and internal vitalization of her economy were not forthcoming.

Politically, our government wants Mexico stable. Even at the cost of their drug exports and illegal immigration. Another revolution in Mexico could be disastrous for the U.S. economy which is so dependent now on Mexico’s.

Vincente Fox has promised for years this and that and made good on almost none. Our government has tolerated this in the name of keeping Mexico’s government stable. Fox is justified in becoming anxious over closing and controlling our Southern border. Billions of dollars for the Mexican economy are at stake, as well as political instability.

The question is: Does Mexico have the right to this parasitic relationship on American workers and taxpayers, business and U.S. children using drugs? Our government has for over a decade said yes. The American voters are now saying no. This is the big issue being argued behind the cameras between the Senate and House irreconcilable bills on Border Security. Make no mistake.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 17, 2006 4:33 PM
Comment #149016

The Mexican government don’t really give a damn about its underclass. The government would rather help get them over to the U.S. and as many as possible. Their migrants will send back tens of billions $US each year. This helps aleviates Mexico’s growing poverty population and further enrich their economy. As long as its thoroughly corrupt government stays the same, socio-economic conditions there will not improve and things will only gets worse, as it has been for the past 30 years. A major revolution (peaceful or otherwise), guided by good leaders, is needed there. What is also inconsistent is how poorly Mexico treats its illegal aliens. They are also classified as felons under Mexican law.

Posted by: Keith at May 17, 2006 5:13 PM
Comment #149025

David Remer wrote:
The question is: Does Mexico have the right to this parasitic relationship on American workers and taxpayers, business and U.S. children using drugs?

If my so call “buddy” is constantly mooching off of me and supplying/pushing drugs to my family members, I will get rid of him fast. He needs to make a change, and it’s up to him. No more excuses.

Posted by: Keith at May 17, 2006 5:46 PM
Comment #149068

Before you all fall over each in righteous indignation, I suggest you read about NAFTA and its effect on Mexico’s rural economy.

I hate it when people simplify stuff.

Posted by: Aldous at May 17, 2006 8:22 PM
Comment #149081

Scottie, ummm actually when you detain someone in this country, you ARE responsible for his safety and well being. Otherwise, I think they call it hostage taking.

Posted by: gergle at May 17, 2006 9:25 PM
Comment #149085
The threat of lawsuits is simply absurd. The U.S. government should be condemning them as pure foolishness and should be making it loud and clear that our federal courts will not compensate the parties of criminals who ignore our laws…

Do you mean like the illegals’ employers who, to borrow your metaphor, post signs around your pool inviting all to come in and get paid ten times your wages to do so? The signs that you haven’t bothered to remove?

Posted by: gergle at May 17, 2006 9:37 PM
Comment #149095

Meet the illegals at the border, give them guns, help them overthrow Fox and his corrupt aristocracy. If not now when?

Posted by: j2t2 at May 17, 2006 10:06 PM
Comment #149096

I would suggest you read Steve Hill’s editorial about how the European Union has started the integration of its poor neighbors, it would broaden this debate:

Time for a Tex-Mex Marshall Plan

2006/4/30
By Steven Hill WASHINGTON, Special to The Washington Post


Immigration issues are always ripe for demagoguery, particularly in an election year. But the solution to the very real problems along the U.S.-Mexican border can be found, ironically, in that other part of the world that American demagogues love to ridicule: old Europe.

Two years ago, the European Union admitted 10 new members. Like Mexico, all of these nations were poor, some of them fairly backward and most recently ravaged by war and communist dictatorship.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/editorial/detail.asp?onNews=&GRP=i&id=81390

Posted by: Hank Chapot at May 17, 2006 10:10 PM
Comment #149098

Read the Green Party CA press release;

Green Party Candidates Blast use of National Guard to Militarize Border

THE GREEN PARTY OF CALIFORNIA
www.cagreens.org
http://www.gp.org/press/states/ca_2006_05_16.shtml

Tuesday, May 16, 2006

Contact: Sara Amir, spokesperson 310.270-7106 saraamir@earthlink.net
Pat Driscoll, spokesperson 916.320-6430 patp@sonicfrog.com
Susan King, spokesperson 415.823-5524 funking@mindspring.com
Cres Vellucci, GPCA press secretary 916.996-9170

Use of National Guard to militarize border sends wrong signal, won’t resolve immigration situation, say Green Party congressional candidates

SACRAMENTO — President Bush’s announcement Monday evening that the U.S. should send thousands of National Guard troops to the California border will only escalate the militarization of the border, and do nothing to resolve the immigration situation, said several Green Party congressional candidates today.

The candidates also condemned Bush’s plan for immigration “reform” which would criminalize the millions of immigrants without documents.

“Militarizing the border is absolutely the wrong signal to send. It would make it look like we’re at war. I am sure Americans would be stunned if thousands of Mexican Army troops took up positions along the border,” said Jeff Kravitz, a constitutional law professor, civil rights attorney and candidate for Congress (5th District, Sacramento) .

“This is hysteria upon hysteria, another stunt by the disinformation-driven Bush Administration that will do nothing to resolve the immigration situation,” said Kravitz. “This will only serve to increase tensions along the border with an all,” he added.

Krissy Keefer (8th District, San Francisco ), said that “troops at the border have huge implications. Not only does it further inflame the already deadly situation as it pertains to the immigrants and our relationship with Mexico, it lays the ground work for the continued militarization of our country.

“Militarizing our border in California with Mexico is just another example of President Bush’s deteriorating presidency, as is the recent revelations of spying on Americans and the appointment of the military as head of the CIA. President Bush is playing with the fear factor. That’s the only card he has left,” Keefer said.

“These folks that are coming here for a better life are escaping a repressive environment. Trade agreements like NAFTA have ravaged the working class economy in Mexico which drives the migration northward. They come to America for hope and for a second chance - they come here seeking economic asylum,” said Byron DeLear (28th District, San Fernando ).

search:

___

Disclaimer: State, local, and candidate press releases made available here represent the opinions of the original source only. Opinions expressed by a state party or candidate do not necessarily represent the views of the Green Party of the United States. State party contact information, when provided with candidate releases, does not imply state party endorsement of the opinions expressed nor of the candidate (prior to gaining formal nomination by the party).
___

Office: PO Box 57065 Washington, D.C. 20037
Email: office@gp.org 202-319-7191 or toll-free (US): 866-41GREEN

Posted by: Hank Chapot at May 17, 2006 10:13 PM
Comment #149131

Who other than the bleeding hearts cares what Mexico thinks or wants?
Illegal immigration is illegal immigration. Would they like if millions of US citizens snuck into their country and committed crimes? They’d be screaming at us to put an end to it.
I say instead of the National Guard we put the Army and Marines down there. Then if Mexico don’t like that we already have the forces in place to take the country over. Hell were getting the people we might as well get the real estate.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 18, 2006 12:33 AM
Comment #149132

Meet the illegals at the border, give them guns, help them overthrow Fox and his corrupt aristocracy. If not now when?

Posted by: j2t2 at May 17, 2006 10:06 PM

Hey we agree on one thing.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 18, 2006 12:34 AM
Comment #149145

Meet the illegals at the border, give them guns, help them overthrow *Bush* and his corrupt aristocracy. If not now when?

Posted by: j2t2 at May 17, 2006 10:06 PM

Hey we agree on one thing…

Posted by: Aldous at May 18, 2006 2:40 AM
Comment #149181

Yes Ron at least one thing.

Aldous way to take a good idea and make it better.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 18, 2006 9:20 AM
Comment #149196

Ron Brown,

I say instead of the National Guard we put the Army and Marines down there. Then if Mexico don’t like that we already have the forces in place to take the country over. Hell were getting the people we might as well get the real estate.

It’s amazing that two people (you and I) can run in opposite directions and end up in almost the same place. It proves the world is round, and getting smaller every day.

I’m not saying we should invade Mexico (although a peaceful annexation would have tremendous benefits on both sides). But we do have to learn to integrate better. We’re in a world market — like it or not, the economies of the U.S. and Mexico are permanently linked. No matter how many walls or fences you build, the problems in their economy will continue to spill over into ours.

We can’t ignore the existence of Mexican drug lords or corrupt Mexican politicians any longer. Building a wall will not stop them from affecting our economy.

Who other than the bleeding hearts cares what Mexico thinks or wants?

The Mexicans do, for one. And anyone who cares about the future of the U.S. cares about the future of Mexico, too, because you can’t separate the two. Instead of building a wall between their problems and ours, we’re better off seeing their problems as OUR problems, and working with them to fix those problems.

In the long run, that is what is best for Americans AND Mexicans.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 10:44 AM
Comment #149215

With $54 trillion in nation-wide debt,
the U.S. can not continue to prop-up and nation-build.
We can not afford to make everyone elses’ problems our problems.
We can not afford to let everyone that wants to come here, do so.

$22 trillion of that $54 trillion debt is government debt ($8.4 trillion National Debt, $12.8 trillion Social Security Debt, PBGC $450 billion in the hole, Medicare deficits for many years to come).

$32 trillion of that debt is private debt.

The nation is swimming in debt.

We are dying a death of a thousand cuts.

Sound like exaggeration ?

If you think so, remember that 10 years from now.

U.S. citizens are footing the bill to the tune of $70 to $139 billion in net losses (per year) for illegal immigration that burden our education, hospital, E.R., healthcare, CDC, foodstamp, welfare, Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, law enforcement, voting, insurance, and prison systems, not to mention the cost of one person murdered every 7 hours by an illegal alien, the cost of 2.3 million displaced workers, closing hospitals, 2000 new anchor babies per year in one city alone (Laredo, TX), and those devastated by disease (many that were once eradicated, but now affecting thousands of Americans).

American tax payers are like carpet.
You can walk all over them.
But that carpet is gettin’ might worn out.

Keep goin’ the way we’re goin’ , keep makin’ everyone elses’ problems ours, keep ignorin’ those problems, and keep letting our worthless congress create more problems and ignore existing problems, and not of this is gonna matter one little bit.

Keep allowing illegal aliens to abuse our systems, and it won’t be long at all before those systems all fail. They will be worthless to everyone, despite the massive tax burden to try to prop it up. Especially when those systems are already severely burdened.

Give amnesty to 12+ million illegal aliens and watch Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid go down the tubes. Why? Because half have not been paying into those systems, and they are pay-as-you-go systems anyway, and the taxes collected from the relative low tax base will not offset the costs.

I doubt the government will enforce the new laws any better than the existing laws. 6000 National Guard exemplifies that, since 6500 illegal aliens cross the border of Arizona daily. What a joke. But, it will appease most American voters and they will choose to lazily believe the problem is now being addressed. Ha! Will they never learn?

We won’t be just worrying about the price of fuel, electricity, or being unemployed. We will wondering where our next meal is coming from.

This long list of issues is a perfect storm in the making. And we created it … with our government Of / By / For The People. Yes, we created it, because we keep re-electing the very same ilk that keeps screwing us, decade after decade. Voters, for a long time, have been asking government to deal with the illegal alien problem, but irresponsible politicians ignored the voters (as usual). But voters continue to send billions in campaign money, and keep re-electing the very same bums that keep screwin’ the voters. That is why they call it a government our government Of / By / For The People. We all seem to think we can all exist at the expense of everyone else. And, if times are hard, just print some more money, like they’re doing now. Never mind the inevitable inflation that accompanies it.

The federal government and voters are doing just about everything perfectly to bring on the next economic disaster.

Recessions occur every 2 to 11 years for the last 46 years. Ask yourself, with massive debts, deficits forecast for decades, troubled Social Security and Medicare, war in Iraq and Afghanistan, $70 to $139 billion per year in net losses due to illegal aliens, massive trade deficits, etc., etc., etc., how easy will it be to recover from the next recession ?

Especially when median wages have already been falling for 6 consecutive years, and more jobs have been lost than created since 2000 (if you consider that most of the jobs created were in an already bloated government).

What will be the last straw?

The illegal alien issue is more important than some realize. It’s not so much the 12+ million now. It is the 48 million ot 120 million that it could easily turn into within a few years.

That will certainly bust the public education systems, E.R.s, hospitals (84 hospitals closed in California alone), welfare (32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare), Social Security, law enforcement, prisons (29% of all incarcerated are illegal aliens), etc.

How were we thanked by the last amnesty in 1986?
Here’s how. They invited their 20 closest relatives (illegal aliens) to come live here.

So, you think illegal aliens deserve more?

  • Where is the companssion for the victims of increased crime rates (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period; 29% of all incarcerated are illegal aliens)

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to E.R.s because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?

  • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources and 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare ?

  • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands enter our society illegally. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers that experience a net loss of about $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

For all the bleedin’ hearts out there, let’s see now compassionate you are when when you or your family can’t get: affordable healthcare, access to and E.R., decent education and affordable property taxes, a job you’ve been displaced from, safety from crime (someone murdered every 7 hours by an illegal alien) and disease (thousands being infected by once eradicated diseases).

You don’t care you say? You believe you are obligated to let illegal aliens have what they want? Then why not all that believe that way, let them come live with you (uninvited), stay a while, indefinitely, invite a few friends, eat your food, come and go as they please?

After all, this entire problem is our fault.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 18, 2006 12:22 PM
Comment #149218
I’m not saying we should invade Mexico (although a peaceful annexation would have tremendous benefits on both sides). But we do have to learn to integrate better. We’re in a world market — like it or not, the economies of the U.S. and Mexico are permanently linked. No matter how many walls or fences you build, the problems in their economy will continue to spill over into ours.

Sorry, the globalism argument does not make sense.

No country improved itself by importing poverty and crime. No country ever benefited by massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

That globalization is one of the many excuses that are used, among others:

  • Globalism: We live in a global economy now, requiring new global solutions. Securing the U.S. borders is futile, since it is inadequate to deal with globalization.
    [Rebuttal: With increasing competition abroad, growing corporatism and corpocrisy, an increasingly irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, elitist government, we can not grow, tax, or immigrate enough to eliminate our fiscal problems. Importing poverty and crime and disease is not going to help us at all.]

  • Tradition: As George Bush said: “We are a land of immigrants”; we can not pull up the drawbridge now, unless we dismantle the Statue of Liberty. Otherwise, we are all hypocrites.
    [Rebuttal: This is a common ploy. Yes, we are a land of immigrants. Mostly legal. We are enriched by legal immigration; not by massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.]

  • Economics: The U.S. will crumble without illegal aliens. We need immigrants to pay the Social Security of the Baby Boomers when they begin to retire. Immigrants do jobs Americans won’t do. Who would pick our produce? Who would make the beds and wash the dishes?

  • [Rebuttal: This is a common myth, since illegal aliens are costing U.S. tax payers a net loss of at least $70 billion per year. $70 billion will pick a lot of vegetables and fruit, eh?]
  • Humanitarianism: You are selfish to put the needs of poor Americans ahead of more desperate people in other nations, by denying them entry into our country. The U.S. is obligated to share with others. Large-scale immigration is a significant way for the U.S. to help the impoverished people of the world.
    [Rebuttal: It is also selfish to forget to show compassion for your fellow citizens that go without because illegal aliens have stolen from and burdened our welfare, Medicaid, education, healthcare, hospital, E.R., Medicare, Social Security, law enforcement, prison, insurance, and voting systems.]

  • Diversity: Increasing diversity through immigration is necessary to be true to our civil rights principles. Opposition to illegal immigration is racist. We are obligated to accommodate millions of immigrants per year because our strength is our diversity; the diversity of immigrants made America great. And, Christopher Columbus was the first illegal alien, and we stole the land from the Indians.
    [Rebuttal: That is the old stand-by. You are a racist. However, race has nothing to do with it since illegal aliens are of all races from all over the world. Diversity is good, but massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration itself leads to racism due to chaos, societal disorder, resentments, and increased competition for a slice of a shrinking pie.]

  • Irredentism: We have no right to secure U.S. borders, because U.S. borders are illegitimate to start with. The U.S. really belongs to the Indians and other neighboring nations, to start with.
    [Rebuttal: This is another lame argument. If you want to use that logic, we should all give back all of our nations to the original inhabitants, or their ancestors. This lame argument is just one of many that demonstrate how weak all of the pro-illegal alien arguments are.]

  • Cornucopianism: The free market and technology will save us. We are the land of plenty. Besides, we need illegal aliens to grow out of our massive debt problems. They will become new tax payers, and we can grow our way out of debt.
    [Rebuttal: Even if that were true, does it justify using an under-paid underclass to remedy our debt problems? This simply does not make sense, since illegal aliens are costing U.S. taxpayers net losses of over $70 billion per year.]

  • Practicality: It is not possible to deport 12+ million illegal aliens.
    [Rebuttal: There is no need to deport illegal aliens. We can help deport those that volunteer to be deported, but once the magnets are eliminated, illegal aliens will leave voluntarily]

The proposals to provide a Guest Worker Program is essentially a ruse. It is essentially an Amnesty Program, since illegal aliens will be allowed to stay, ridiculously complex rules associated with the Guest Worker Program will increase law enforcement duties and tracking requirements, many times over, and those laws will be not be enforced any more than current laws. And massive deportation is not necessary either. If the magnets that attract illegal aliens here are eliminated, illegal aliens will stop coming here, and many will leave voluntarily. Especially if we offer to pre-pay their transportation to return to their homeland, and provide a reasonable amount of money to help make their return trip home.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 18, 2006 12:36 PM
Comment #149220

d.a.n,

With $54 trillion in nation-wide debt, the U.S. can not continue to prop-up and nation-build. We can not afford to make everyone elses’ problems our problems.

No, but Mexico’s problems already ARE our problems, as your data so blatantly shows. Ignoring them won’t make them go away.

Building a wall may keep out the illegal immigrants, but it won’t sever the ties between our economy and Mexico’s. Our fates are linked, whether we like it or not. And as long as Mexico’s economy is suffering, ours will feel the effects of it.

If you want to end illegal immigration, then help the Mexicans deal with the problems that are causing people to leave. Then you won’t NEED to build a wall.

I don’t see anyone here calling for a fortified border-fence on the Canadian border, even though our border there is even more porous than the southern one. That’s because Canada’s economy is healthy, so people aren’t rushing to leave. If we can help build up Mexico’s economy, people won’t be in a hurry to leave there, either.

Instead of trying to isolate ourselves from our neighbors, let’s try to help them out.

Here’s an analogy… if your neighbor has a bunch of weeds in his yard, and their seeds keep blowing into your yard, you can either spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to build a filtered-air bubble around your yard, or you can buy your neighbor $20 worth of weed killer.

Sometimes, solving the other guy’s problems is the cheapest way to solve our own.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 12:44 PM
Comment #149233

We can’t solve Mexico’s problems.
Mexico’s government is even more corrupt than ours.
If we continue as is, Mexico will improve, and the U.S. will decline.
It does not have to be that way.
Eliminate the magnets, enforce the law, and secure the border.
All of which would cost less than the current net losses of over $70 billion per year ($10.5 billion for CA alone).
You can not make any nation better by importing poverty, crime, and disease. That is what we are doing, and the is one of the reasons for our demise.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 18, 2006 1:30 PM
Comment #149236

d.a.n,

We can’t solve Mexico’s problems.

If that’s true, then we’re in serious trouble. But if we can solve Iraq’s problems, and Kuwait’s problems, and Kosovo’s problems, and Israel’s problems, then just maybe, with a little planning, we could actually help a country we share a border with!

Mexico’s government is even more corrupt than ours.

True. That’s part of the reason so many Mexicans want to come to the U.S.

If we continue as is, Mexico will improve, and the U.S. will decline.

No, if we continue as is, Mexico will decline, and the U.S. will decline with it.

It does not have to be that way.

No, it doesn’t. We could actually help our neighbors with their problems instead of hiding from them.

You can not make any nation better by importing poverty, crime, and disease.

So are you saying we should build a wall around New Orleans?

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 2:03 PM
Comment #149239

As long as the Mexican government remains the way they are, the country cannot expect to improve, even with outside help. The U.S. had been helping Mexico for many years. It had absorbed tens of millions of its underclass and they in return send to Mexico tens of billions of $US. River water rights agreement with Mexico have been blantantly abused as well, and the U.S. is willing to let it go. Even if the U.S. gives $500 billion to Mexico in aid, it will not amount to a lasting improvement. Its corrupt and largely inept government will siphon of or mismanage the funds. Just look at Russia with all those economic aids it received. Things didn’t improve there as it should because of its corrupt and inept government. Also, to a certain degree its people also need to change. Such a country needs to change from within, its people and its government. Outside countries can try to help, but it is up to that to make that change.


Posted by: Keith at May 18, 2006 2:13 PM
Comment #149243

I might be willing to help Mexico, but not as long as they are not willing to help themselves or us. Pain or revolution is the best thing for them.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 18, 2006 2:27 PM
Comment #149245

And we might want to be close behind.
Corrupt government in both countries is our biggest problem.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 18, 2006 2:28 PM
Comment #149250

Keith,

Such a country needs to change from within, its people and its government. Outside countries can try to help, but it is up to that to make that change.

Sounds familiar. I remember saying almost the exact same thing about Iraq…

Hank Chapot’s post above (or, more specifically, the China Post editorial he linked) does an excellent job of addressing the issue. If you haven’t read it yet, I recommend you do so.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 2:43 PM
Comment #149343

I hope they do sue in court. While we are all paying attention to every amendment and detail of this discussion, most Americans are rapped up with American Idol. (THAT is a huge sign that we are doomed, but it’s another discussion for another day) Those are the people who vote, if they bother, for who seems nicest or coolest or who is going to legalize pot. They don’t pay attention until the news is big. When Mexico sues US because they have looted and mismanaged their own country and are driving their own citizens away faster than the East Germans, they will look up from the Simpson’s rerun they are watching and say “What the F…? Everyone who cares to be honest with themselves, even the Mexicans, know that is ridiculous and unfair and will infuriate about 100 million Americans who otherwise wouldn’t pay attention until two days before the next election.

Since I referenced the East Germans, why isn’t Mexico building a wall to keep those people from fleeing? Oh yeah, Mexico’s largest export commodity? Money sent from Mexicans in the U.S.

Posted by: David C. at May 18, 2006 10:47 PM
Comment #149429

Rob Cottrell,

Why stop with Mexico?
Why not take care of the entire world?
I don’t see that we owe any illegal aliens anything at all.
We gave 3 million amnesty in 1986, and they showed their gratitude by inviting another 9 million.
We’ve been too generous.
Their problems do not have to be our problems.
If we want to help Mexico, we should stop propping up their corrupt government.
Lots of countries decline without affecting the U.S.
Mexico doesn’t have to be a problem if we quit letting them abuse our welfare, education, and other systems, and secure our border. That is our right. Lots of people want to come to the U.S. We can’t let them all. We have had to cut down on legal immigration due to illegal immigration. That’s not fair.

But, I’d willing to give each illegal alien pre-paid transportation to their homeland and $500 per person to live on for a while.

There is no way the U.S. can not decline by importing that much poverty, crime, and disease. If you think it is bad now, just wait. There are already over a million illegal aliens where I live. The crime is bad. They shoot and murder our police, spread disease, use our schools, healthcare, E.R.s, welfare, etc., etc., etc.

It won’t take a 120 million to devastate the U.S. It is already on its way. All of those abused public systems will fail. 84 hospitals have already closed in California alone. In one city alone, Laredo, TX, 2000 anchor babies are born each year, allowing the family blue passports and welfare. 32% of illegal aliens collect welfare. Multiply that 2000 by all the cities along the U.S. border.

We are being overrun. And, with 32% collecting welfare, and 29% of all 2.2 million incarcerated being illegal aliens, they aren’t coming here for jobs alone. For many, it appears, the American dream is welfare and crime.

But, it’s all futile.
They will get amnesty or Guest-Worker status, and the 12+ million will turn into 50 million. There are some in Congress that want to allow 120 million to immigrate.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 19, 2006 10:38 AM
Comment #149432

d.a.n,

Lots of countries decline without affecting the U.S.

Name one country THAT WE SHARE A BORDER WITH that has declined without affecting us.

Close the border if you want. Build a 100-foot-high concrete barrier from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean if you want. It still won’t stop Mexico’s economy from affecting our own, even if it does stop 95% of illegal immigration. Their markets affect our markets. Their politics affects our politics. We cannot isolate ourselves from them, no matter how high of a wall you build.

You’re entirely focused on the problem of illegal immigration. A wall may solve that problem. But there are bigger, long-term problems that no wall will solve.

Why stop with Mexico? Why not take care of the entire world?

Because we can’t afford to take care of the entire world. But we can afford to help those who have the biggest impact on our economy, our culture, our health, and our future. More importantly, we can’t afford not to. In that respect, Mexico is more important to us than Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Darfur, North Korea, France, or just about anyone else on this planet.

Hiding from Mexico won’t make it go away.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 19, 2006 11:16 AM
Comment #149661

Rob Cottrell,

I think you way over-estimate Mexico’s positive effects on our economy. Do you have any statistics or data to confirm your assertions that we are so dependent on Mexico?

Illegal aliens, half of which come from Mexico, are not helping our economy now.

Do you have any data to support your assertion that we need to take care of Mexico? Are you saying we should allow 12+ million illegal aliens to stay via Guest Worker Program? Or Amnesty Program? Are you saying the borders should remain wide open? Should illegal aliens be allowed to continue to burden our systems?

We do not need to import poverty, crime and disease. That is not helping our economy.

  • One person murdered every 6.7 hours by and illegal alien is not helping our economy.

  • Illegal aliens are costing U.S. tax payers $70 to $139 billion per year.

  • Tens of thousands of Ameriacans, contracting once-eradicated diseases, is not helping our economy.

  • 29% of all incarcerated being illegal aliens is not helping our U.S. economy

  • 32% of all illegal aliens receiving welfare is not helping our U.S. economy

  • Allowing illegal aliens to steal from us, and send billions back to there homelands, is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to run across the border and give birth to new U.S. citizen anchor-babies (2000 per year in one city, Laredo, TX.), allowing the parents and family to get blue passports, and welfare, is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing half of all illegal aliens to avoid taxation is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing half of all illegal aliens to avoid paying taxes is an unfair advantage that displaces an estimated 2.3 million American workers.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to overflow our E.R.s and hospitals has cause 84 hospital closures in California alone, which is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Alowing illegal aliens to commit crimes, and return over and over, after being deported over and over, is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to vote in our elections is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Allowing illegal aliens to over-run our schools and demand bilingual education is not helping our U.S. economy (especially since illegal aliens do not contribute much in the way of property taxes that fund public education), and it contributes to the rising price and falling quality of public education.

  • Most illegal aliens are not highly educated, and don’t make a lot, nor pay a lot of taxes (if any), which is not helping our U.S. economy.

  • Stealing from U.S. tax payers, and giving it to illegal aliens is not helping our U.S. economy.

I believe we should secure the border, make it illegal to employ illegal aliens, make it illegal to provide welfare to illegal aliens, and provide pre-paid transportation and $500 per person to return to their homeland. As jobs are harder and harde to find, illegal aliens will leave voluntarily.

But don’t worry.
12+ million illegal aliens will receive amnesty or a Guest Work status (a.k.a. amnesty), and 12+ million will turn into 48 million in no time (just like 3+ million quadrupled after the 1986 amnesty). The borders will never be secured.
The burden of importing so much poverty, crime, and disease will lead to the end of welfare, Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, public schools, etc., etc. etc.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 20, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #149702

It is false to include unregulated borders with globalism. Globalism is inherently interwoven with the economic patterns of the world. We will impact and be impacted by other nations, however that does not mean that national boundaries will fade away. Instead, international relationships will have to develop a more cohesive, comprehensive structure to facilitate economic transactions. National identity, interests and goals will continue, but artificial barriers, blocking facilitation of economic exchanges will have to adapt.

I reject the Mexican government’s dismissal of any obligation to monitor and control illegal immigration into the US. I am offended by the existing infrastructure operated by the Mexican government to facilitate illegal immigration into the US by their citizens. In a country where they cannot eliminate horrorific urban shantys, institute minimal protection against a thriving kidnapping industry or implement minimal child labor laws, they have established websites with tips for crossing the US/Mexico border. Pamphlets are produced and their are government departments to educate potential illegal emmigrees.

This hypocracy would be more understandable if Mexico was lacking in resources, but the growing oil wealth, which should be resulting in better economic conditions in Mexico, is instead supplementing the governments efforts to increase illegal immigration to the US.

Fox is on his way out and we can only hope that his successor will be a better world citizen. If not, I suggest increasing visa availability to other South and Central American nations and reducting Mexico’s allotment correspondingly. A trading partner and a neighbor who only deceives, is no asset.

Posted by: goodkingned at May 20, 2006 5:35 AM
Comment #149719

d.a.n/goodkingned,

I never said that Mexico had a “positive” effect on our economy… I just said that it has an effect. Mexico is suffering from tremendous political, economic, and social problems, and it exports those problems to the U.S. daily — and not just in the form of illegal immigrants.

Building a wall may stop the flow of immigrants, but unless you close the gates to (currently legal) commerce between the two countries, our economies will continue to affect each other. At the moment, our economy is helping Mexico, and their economy is hurting us. We need to fix that.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 20, 2006 10:20 AM
Comment #149744

The best solution for Mexico is for the U.S. to secure the borders (which can be done affordably, despite all the nay sayers that say it is impossible), deny all freebies, welfare, and public benefits to illegal aliens, and pay for each illegal aliens transportation and $500 per person to leave.

Perhaps then, the people of those nations may choose to work to reform their own nations (revolt if necessary), rather then pushing their problems onto the U.S., and coming here to steal from our public services, welfare, hospitals, schools, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, etc., etc., etc.

Mexico needs a revolution, because their government is 10 times worse than our own.

Perhaps we need a revolution too, since our severely bloated, do-nothing, bought-and-paid-for, corrupt, arrogant, elitist government grows and grows to nightmare proportions, violating the Constitution in more and more ways every year:

  • eminent domain abuse backed up by the Supreme Court
  • ,
  • spying on citizens,

  • secret prisons,

  • torture,

  • Gerrymangering,

  • corpocrisy, corporatism, the race to the bottom,

  • government excessively influenced by a few with vast wealth and power,

  • pork-barrel, corporate welfare, graft, bribery,

  • refusal to secure the borders and forcing the burdens onto U.S. citizens,

  • extremely irresponisible intelligence about WMD that lead to unnecessary war,

  • dysfunctional legal system, and perversion of the laws to do the very things the laws were supposed to prevent,

  • severe abuse of Presidential Pardons, politicians are above the law,

  • selective or insufficient enforcement of the law; some obviously are above the law; especially corrupt politicians,

  • meddling, corrupt middlemen (government and insurance companies), and greedy lawyers that are destroying the healthcare system,

  • unfair advantages of corrupt incumbent politicians,
  • an unfair and ridiculous tax systems, and the refusal to reform them,

  • the failure of the Congress to declare war (the Constitution states that only the Congress can declare war, but the cowardly Congress has abdicated that responsibility to the Executive Branch in all wars since WWII,

  • declining public education and other abused public systems,

  • ponzi schemes (e.g. Social Security, Medicare),

  • and the general fiscal and moral bankruptcy of the government.


We have enough problems of our own without wasting our time and resources on other corrupt nations, of which we have no control or influence, whatsoever.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 20, 2006 1:04 PM
Comment #150104

One of the ways we can improve the U.S. Executive Branch is to change the number of terms a President can serve. From a two terms limit to a three terms limit. This will encourage the President to be a more responsible leader and more answerable to its citizens. History has shown that our Presidents tend to be a less responsible and less effective during their second term since they are ineligible to run for re-election again. Scandals, corruption, and inefficacy are common during this second term. There are a few exceptions, such as George Washington, who is a very rare and exceptional type of leader. A leader not for power, but for country, which we don’t see any more nowadays. By allowing a possible three terms, they will now have a strong incentive to be more effective and responsible during their second term. We can have a common eight good years instead of the usual 4 (or less) good years. If a President is doing a good job, he is more likely be re-elected. Also, a possible 3 terms (12 years, max.) would allow a President enough time to get things done and appropriate changes made. Our constitution is not perfect, nor is it set in stone. Sometimes, we need to make changes in our laws to better serve us.
Part of Mexico’s problems with its Presidency is its one term limit under its constitution. If one term isn’t bad enough, its historically ineffectual Presidents gets to serve for six long years! Also, the term too short to effectively implement sweeping changes. Corruption and mismanagement continues. This is an Achilles’ heel for Mexico’s Presidency and it encourages further ineptitude. Once elected, there is little incentive to be a responsible and effective as a leader to its citizens. Its Constitution also desperately needs to make a small change for the better. The country can also change in many ways for the better, but it is up to its people and its government to do so.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 10:22 AM
Comment #150162

Yikes!

By allowing a possible three terms, they will now have a strong incentive to be more effective and responsible during their second term.

Not likely.
Besides, the President and VP are only two people.

The problem is not the length or number of terms.
The problem is the moral bankruptcy of our entire society, through and through.
Irresponsible incumbent politicians won’t reform themselves.
Giving them longer terms won’t help anything.
Only the voters, if they ever choose to do so (which seems increasingly unlikely until sufficient pain and misery motiviates them to do so), can restore the balance of power between government and The People, using the one simple, common-sense, responsible thing that has been right under their nose all along, to do the one simple, no-brainer, responsible thing they were supposed to be doing all along. Vote out irresponsible incumbents, always.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 1:15 PM
Comment #150189

Dan,

Yes, problems in our government are in many areas and with many politicians. I was referring to one part of it (presidency) and a partial remedy only. The President gets much more scrutiny and publicity than a Congressman, Senator, Governor, Mayor, etc. More voter turn out for presidential election than any elections. If a President did a poor job, he is less likely to get reelected. Of course, sometimes people will History has shown second term Presidents usuually performs less effectivly than there first term. With a 3 terms limit, over an extended period of time we would have more “good” years than “bad” years with the Presidency. Also, voters somtimes have to choose from the least worse politicians.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 2:01 PM
Comment #150191

I meant to say on the last part:

History has shown second term Presidents usuually performs less effectivly than there first term. With a 3 terms limit, over an extended period of time we would have more “good” years than “bad” years with the Presidency. Also, voters somtimes have to choose from the least worse politicians.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 2:03 PM
Comment #150207

By the way, Senator Edward Kennedy gets re-elected repeatedly in his turf state, but he is very unlikely to get elected if he was to run for President. The thing about it is that he knows it.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 2:29 PM
Comment #150325

Daniel,

That supports the idea that half the problem is voters, that keep re-electing the very same irresponsible incumbent politicians that use and abuse everyone, while filling their own pockets and securing their cu$hy incumbencies.

The idea of more terms has a few positives and a few negatives.

I just think we got bigger fish to fry before looking at that.

Voters had better start takin’ a little more interest in their congress persons, an
irresponsible and unaccountable government that has grown into:

  • (1) a bloated structure of the Executive Branch that is a vast gang of over two million persons that are neither seen nor heard as they irresponsibly throttle our freedoms and prosperity; subtly growing and securing more and more power; one of the first steps toward totalitarianism, is the destruction of the parliamentary/legislative branches of government;

  • (2) and a relatively smaller 535 in Congress and their hundreds of thousands employees, mostly a fumbling and stumbling group that is too busy piling on pork-barrel, corporate welfare, and subsidies to special interests, gathering $millions while trying to get re-elected, voting themselves raises and cu$hy perk$, and far too preoccupied with seducing voters and fueling the the perpetual petty partisan warfare.

All branches lack honesty and transparency, which leads to irresponsibility and unaccountability. They have, over time, hidden and over-complicated things to keep the voters from really knowing what is happening much of the time. There is increasing secrecy. It is part of a historical cycle that’s been seen before.

This problem with illegal immigration, is just another example of irresponsible government, as irresponsible incumbent politicians insidiously pit illegal aliens and American citizens against each other. Especially insidious is the way the poorest Americans and illegal aliens are pitted against each other to compete for the lower paying jobs. Especially when half of illegal aliens have an advantage of not paying taxes. And the government is complicit because it forces states to accommodate illegal aliens.

The root of the problem is us. Voters have the method right under their very own noses to stop the use and abuse by. Simply vote out irresponsible incumbents, always.

Either way, it is a government Of / By / For the people, as long as voters still have the right to vote, and choose to keep re-electing the very same incumbents, year after year.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 22, 2006 7:08 PM
Comment #150352

Yes, at least half of the problem is due to voter complacancy and ignorance. Politicians know this and become responsible. So, they will answer and cater to those to those that affect or benefit them, the special interests groups and big contributors. Even foreign interest groups have influence our government against the country’s interests. Only in America. Maybe we should outlaw special interest groups and their lobbys since they often work against what is best for the country.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 8:29 PM
Comment #150354

Sorry, I meant to say:

Yes, at least half of the problem is due to voter complacancy and ignorance. Politicians know this and become less responsible.

Posted by: Daniel at May 22, 2006 8:31 PM
Comment #150499

That’s why voter education is important.
First, people need to understand the root cause.
Then how to adequately account for the human factor.
Education is the first step to understand the importance of Education itself, the root problem (laziness), Transparency, Accountability, Responsibility, and Power.

The biggest threat to any nation is the lack of Education, Transparency, Accountability, and Responsibility, because it breeds corruption.

  • Responsibility = Power + Education + Transparency + Accountability.
  • Corruption = Power - Education - Transparency - Accountability.

People seek security and prosperity with the least effor and pain. Some will get it unethically and/or illegally. Power exacerbates the problem.
Laziness is a natural human trait, but it is immoral to surrender to it completely.

Too much laziness is truly at the very fundamental root cause of most of our problems.

We are all culpable (voters and politicians).
But, since bought-and-paid-for politicians will never allow newcomers to pass any badly-needed, common-sense reforms, it is now up to the voters to do what they were supposed to be doing all along: vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbent politicians, always.
Voters still have the right to vote.
But, unfortunately, the bought-and-paid-for incumbent Political Class has an advantage. Irresponsible incumbent politicians’ laziness works for them, since they also have power to abuse for self-gain. Voters’ laziness works against them, because they have to work to understand the problem and solution, and then get out and vote responsibly, instead of pulling the party lever. Voters must take off their partisan blinders, and start voting out (or recalling) the cheaters.

Maybe, if The People can restore a balance of power (not merely shift it, or strip government of all power to accomplish anything), this problem (illegal immigration) and many other pressing probems may eventually be addressed, instead of being allowed to grow in number and severity due to irresponsible politicians won’t tackle tough issues for fear of risking re-election.

Posted by: d.a.n at May 23, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #213467

mexicos death and drug rate is lower than americas. but mexico is still developing.and south americans wont stop coming to mexico.so think were will they all go.its estimated 6 million brazilians live there.america went throw social status change as well so dont arras mexicans our ancestors found and conquered the americas. And defeated other tribes.mexicos politics are just fine.Estados unidos Mexicanos VIVA MEXICO.

Posted by: viva mexico at March 24, 2007 12:18 PM
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