Third Party & Independents Archives

March 28, 2006

Immigration Bill: Slap in American Workers Face!

Cecelia Munoz, VP of LaRaza was a guest on C-span’s Washington Journal this morning speaking of the immigration policies being shaped in Congress as we speak. She said the Guest Worker program is not an amnesty program, but a work program for illegal immigrants to obtain citizenship status through a legal process. This is exactly the same as saying America can get rid of thieves in the country by legalizing stealing.

Ms. Munoz went on to argue that her organization is working to raise all workers wages, standards of living and quality of work experience. But her argument defies reason, for if cheap labor is not imported, employers will be enjoined by free market forces of supply and demand to offer higher wages to Americans for those same jobs, which in turn would increase wages for Americans and quality of work experience. The simple fact is cheap import labor undermines supply and demand forces in our American economy where business raises wages to the point that sufficient employees are drawn to the jobs.

But at the heart of the issue as I watched the amendments to the immigration markup bill in Congress yesterday, is November's elections. Neither Republicans nor Democrats want to risk losing the Hispanic vote in November, and so in those hearings you will find Sen. Ted Kennedy and Sen. John Kyl smiling and working in agreement with each other to forge a bill that will not rock the Hispanic vote in November.

While illegal immigrants in this country will receive AMNESTY for their illegal entry to our nation, though Kennedy nor Kyl will call it that, American workers who used to make decent wages as janitors, maids, cooks, and housekeepers, many of them Black Americans, will continue to be under qualified for better jobs while being under bid by illegal immigrants granted legal work status under the new proposed legislation.

Agricultural jobs are going to be treated differently, allowing migrant workers to come work in the states for 2 years after which they will be required to return home for one year before returning to the states again. This will be allowed for 3 two year stays in the states. The agricultural jobs are the only jobs that Americans would be unwilling to take due to their temporary and seasonal nature and the inability to stay in one place, making family life very difficult.

If you are a low wage or lower middle class wage earner in this country not working in agriculture, you should be up in arms over what your party (Republican or Democrat) is doing to drive down your wages, increase competition for your jobs, and exempt these illegal immigrants from being held accountable for their crime while you will continue to have to pay your parking tickets or, face jail or, lose your license. A speeding ticket will become a greater crime, more stringently enforced, than illegal entry into this country.

This is appalling on its face and slap in the face to all blue collar citizen workers in America. If you have never called or written your Congresspersons before, there will never be a more important time for you to do so, than right now. And you would be wise, very, very wise in November to vote against your representatives running for Re-election who support this amnesty for illegal workers who are holding down your wages and holding back better jobs from your future.

Posted by David R. Remer at March 28, 2006 08:53 PM
Comments
Comment #136500

I take great offense at your assumption that Agriculture is a job not worthy for Americans. In the old days, Agriculture was a job for Teenagers seeking extra pay and Blacks who go fishing after the harvest.

If you want to enforce the Law, enforce it all the way. Do not condone one segment and ban the rest. Your implication that Americans are too unwilling to be Farmers is insulting and wrong. Americans will do anything for money.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 09:24 PM
Comment #136508

the frut was picked in california from 1910 to about 1960 by the people from oklahoma and arkansas watch or read the book or movie grapes of wrath by john steinbeck btw. those folks from oklahoma and arkansas talk about poor treatment! no one was there to look after them. btw they pooled there money over the years and now own many of the farms in central california,

Posted by: jay at March 28, 2006 10:11 PM
Comment #136511

aldous right after the harvest, ever hear of the word slim pickens that is what it was .ive lived in so cal now about 48 years.back then the japanese owned all of the strawberry fields after there harvest they would let people pick the leftovers before they plowed the fields btw they were very nice . they would let you pick the lefovers and you could could keep the strawberrys me and my mom would jump from field to field during the summers and fill the freezer up and give the rest to family.

Posted by: jay at March 28, 2006 10:34 PM
Comment #136512

If we make farm labor expensive, we will develop better farm machines to do the job. It used to take hundreds of guys to harvest cherries. Now they got one machine to shake the tree and a couple guys to collect the fruit.

Hundreds of men used to be employed cutting timber. Now two guys run a machine through. It cuts, trims and stacks on the truck. Two guys.

My in laws used to raise dairy cows. Even when they were in their sixties they could do the work because of machines AND better cows. One modern cow produces as much milk as several cows did in 1960, but it still requires the same amount of work.

My point is that we only “need” cheap labor because we have it. In the long run we would be better off with hybrid crops, better techniques and good machines run by skilled and well paid workers. We don’t want to be a country of stoop labor anymore. We can’t afford to pay unskilled workers a good wage or we should dispense with it.

Posted by: Jack at March 28, 2006 10:35 PM
Comment #136516

Jack,

I agree.
Also, what does it say about us when we create guest-worker plans merely for cheap labor?

Sadly, this problem is way out of control already.

Today was a bit scary.

I live 40 minutes north of Dallas. Student protests today (28-Mar-2006) in Dallas were not so peaceful. A Dallas policemen was assaulted. One 15 year old illegal alien (without a driver’s license, of course) rolled their vehicle. Hundreds, maybe thousands stormed onto the trains without paying. Then they stormed Dallas City Hall (even though city government has nothing to do with it). Then they all climbed into the fountain next to City Hall.
Most surveyed didn’t even know what they were protesting, as they waved their Mexican flags.

The schools are debating whether to treat their absences as truancy?

The police are wondering if they should charge the 15 year old illegal alien, driving without a drivers’ license?

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 10:46 PM
Comment #136518

i must be misunderstanding you jack. it sounds as though you disagree with the president? so, we don’t need cheap labor? we don’t need quasi-amnesty? we could lock down the border and still survive? why, that almost sounds like a conservative view.

by the way, david,
it seems to me that the republicans (in the house) are the only ones prepared to address this issue. how do you reconcile this with the notion that both parties are responsible for the ill-conceived attempt to grant amnesty to illegals?

(in my opinion; the wall sounds stupid, the felony charge sounds excessive - but the increased policing/enforcement of existing laws and deportation, coupled with penalization of businesses employing illegals is right on the money)

Posted by: diogenes (i) at March 28, 2006 10:51 PM
Comment #136519

here in the washington navel orange capitol of california (whats left anyways) jack is right, ten years ago they would drop off thousands of wood boxes then 100s of people would pick it. in the last five years they have a machine that shakes the tree ,they scoop it up and load a truck about 20 people.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at March 28, 2006 11:01 PM
Comment #136520

The wall is needed. The felony charge is vital. We need to get ahead of the curve for once and prepare for the tunnels the Mexicans will dig to get under the wall.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 11:08 PM
Comment #136521

jay:

Too bad the Japanese lost all their land after the US dispossessed them illegally.

Democracy at work!!!

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 11:11 PM
Comment #136522

try to tone down the sarcasm

Posted by: diogenes (i) at March 28, 2006 11:13 PM
Comment #136524

We already have cheap labor EXCEPT they are getting welfare checks and government healthcare.

OR working at WalMart…and getting food stamps to make up for their low wages.

Posted by: bug at March 28, 2006 11:17 PM
Comment #136528

Diogenese

I don’t agree with the president on some parts. But I also don’t want to lock down the border. What I want is quality. I want the U.S. to be a country of highly paid skilled labor. The part of the proposal I like is the ability to bring in skilled labor (H visas) and to let foreign graduates of U.S. universities have a chance to stay in the U.S.

Many of the most innovative firms are founded by Indian or Chinese immigrants. German, Jewish and E. European scholars made our univerities world class in the 1930s-50s.

I want most of my new fellow citizens to be smarter than I am because a country is only as good as its citizens.

Only intelligence makes us richer. The hardest worker picking lettuce is worth much less than the lazy guy who invents a new machine to replace him.

Posted by: Jack at March 28, 2006 11:28 PM
Comment #136538

Jack:

Can’t have your cake and eat it. We must have the wall. There can be no half-measures for this. Half-measures will turn this into a farce.

We need to go all the way. Deport them all.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 11:59 PM
Comment #136542

aldous ( democracy at work)! that happened under the fdr administration.

Posted by: JAY at March 29, 2006 12:14 AM
Comment #136545

Jay:

Didn’t make it any less wrong.

Posted by: Aldous at March 29, 2006 12:35 AM
Comment #136562

David et All,
Like many on both sides of this issue, I have been torn by the need to uphold The Law of the Land and forcing millions of Humans that are just trying their best to add to the positive function of Society up from the home that they have built. Because we know Amnesty foes not work in stopping the flow and arresting over 11 million people is almost impossible to do than I came up with an alternative way of using Our Cardinal Knowledge of the Law to help assist Our Civil, Political, and Religous Leaders come to terms with the issue.

See. I figure that if a person is willing to pay somebody up to $6,000.00 to get into the Country Illegally than they should have no problem in paying a fine of at least a $1.00 for the Mistermeanor Law that they violated before they can even apply for a Federal Guest Worker Permit. Certainly, no Logical and Reasonable Person could object to that could they? Additionally, no Corporation that has faithfully followed The Law of the Land should object to a fine of a $1.00 per hiring of an Illegal Alien for not doing their Due Diligence in an Employment History Check over the last 10 years. Yes, some Corporations maybe outraged by the fines that they would encounter and that could be settled in the Courts of the Land, but the Republican Senates Bill of what is clearly a Liberal View on the issue is just plain wrong for a Nation and Society of Law don’t you think.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 29, 2006 06:00 AM
Comment #136565

All

If this law was in effect on September 10,2001….Mohammand Atta and two other highjackers…here on overstayed visas…would have be eligible for amnesty.

There are two problems here…one stopping the flow of illegals and then dealing with the 11 million already here.

This bill should addres only number 1.Let’s stop them first,then figure out a solution for the 11million.

Clearly though,”jumping the line” and putting them at the head of the list waiting for citizenship ahead of those that have filled out paperwork and have patiently waited (sometimes for years) seems fundamentally unfair to me.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at March 29, 2006 07:10 AM
Comment #136573

Diogenes, in a word, the Senate! Republicans and Democrats are backing amnesty. But that is only have the story. There is a political game afoot here designed to dupe the public. Here is how it will play out, I suspect.

The House, dominated by Republicans side with the bigots and rednecks and intelligent rule of law backers and move to seal our borders against illegal immigration, terrorists, and criminals. Then the Senate (which has far less to fear in Nov. due to their extremely high reelection rates) proposes an opposite bill. Then it goes to conference, while the Public is left with the impression that Republicans favor halting the illegal immigration and deporting those here illegally. Then the reconciliation package comes out of committee and Republicans and Democrats get what they wanted all along, amnesty work program and no monitored wall at the border. Hispanic voters walk away happy, Republicans can say they fought the good fight, and the Democrats can say this was a bipartisan effort in the Senate.

Incumbents get reelected and we end up with no real change of anykind, and the illegal alien flood continues erode wages and increase competition for low wage jobs. Everyone wins except the American people and the security of children’s future.

That Diogenes is how POLITICS is played in D.C. Rather clever don’t you think? But, then most of these incumbents have had many terms to perfect the art of delivering their own reelections and maintaining appearances that they are actually doing something for the American people and her future.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 08:08 AM
Comment #136574

Henry, the Senate bill will make a mockery of our laws. No question.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 08:10 AM
Comment #136581

David,

I could not agree more, it is definitely a slap in the face to all Americans who are not only working at entry level jobs, but also to the rest of us who abide by the law and see people who break the law rewarded - with possible citizenship (highly coveted).

Posted by: Mike Tate at March 29, 2006 09:00 AM
Comment #136583

Sixty-two percent of Americans polled said they want their own congressional representative to support more restrictive policies governing immigration.
Zogby Poll, released March 19, 2006 / conducted February 3-7, 2006

Fifty-seven percent of American voters polled say illegal immigration into the U.S. is a “very serious problem.”
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Eighty-three percent of American immigrant voters, or the children or grandchildren of immigrants, say illegal immigration is a serious problem.
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 09:11 AM
Comment #136586

Given the polls cited above, especially the last one, IF the congress fails to pass a sound solution to our illegal immigration problem, there WILL be only one explanation: The Employer’s Lobbyist Groups joined with the Hispanic Voting Block Lobbyist group. This is precisely the definition of special interests winning out over the public or national good.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 09:14 AM
Comment #136589

Perhaps it’s time to admit the obvious: Most Americans are biased against those who have dark skin and especially those who don’t speak English. These people are here for reasons of economic opportunity, just like many of our ancestors. They are not here for terrorism as people like eagle impugn. Many people are also taking the “I’m already here, let’s close the door on them” approach.
So, IMHO, given the large number of people who are value-added to our society, yet technically criminals, we need to bring the law into alignment with current realities. Politics, as usual, only gets in the way. Current politics uses the BushII xenophobic tool as a starting point. Addind the banal and derisive tone of contemporary American discourse (yes, guilty as charged), I have little hope for a useful law being passed this decade.

Posted by: Dave at March 29, 2006 09:19 AM
Comment #136590

David

Right on.

What we about to witness is politics at its very dirty best…..and Americans in the end,will get the shit end of the stick(again).

Posted by: sicilianeagle at March 29, 2006 09:19 AM
Comment #136591

Regardless of any legislation, I seriously doubt bought-and-paid-for, do-nothing government will suddenly, after decades of ignoring the problem, suddenly decide to start enforcing new laws.

Nothing will come of this.
Just watch.
We’ll get a watered down BILL.
None of it will be enforced.
And, it will be forgotten soon after the elections.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 09:20 AM
Comment #136611

Aldous,

If you want to enforce the Law, enforce it all the way. Do not condone one segment and ban the rest. Your implication that Americans are too unwilling to be Farmers is insulting and wrong. Americans will do anything for money.

My father was born in Arkansas in 1923, and grew up there during the Depression. His family was VERY poor, and he did a lot of agricultural work that most other white people wouldn’t do. They referred to it as “nigger work”, and considered it beneath them, no matter how poor they were. Most of it was picking cotton — the same work that was done with slave labor before the 1860s. It was a matter of pride to the poor white folks that, no matter how bad things got, they were better than the blacks because they didn’t do slave labor.

Now, fast-forward to the 1970s. My mother was a school teacher then in the same area of Arkansas that my father grew up in. Her students were mostly black, and very poor. Few of them could find work in the area. She suggested that there was plenty of demand for agricultural labor, and their universal reply was: “We don’t do that shit — that’s Mexican work!”

For those poor black folks, it was comforting to know that, no matter how bad things got, they were still better than the Mexicans. The uncomfortable truth is that, in the eyes of many Americans, the Mexican has become the new “nigger”.

Jack,

My point is that we only “need” cheap labor because we have it.

I agree. We’ll probably never completely remove the need for cheap labor, but better machinery would greatly reduce it.

Archealogical evidence has shown that the ancient Greeks developed a crude steam engine, but saw it as nothing more than a toy. They had enough cheap slave labor that they weren’t looking for an “industrial revolution”. The more cheap labor you have around, the less of a demand you have for labor-saving devices.

David R. Remer,

We need a Guest Worker program in this country, even if it’s only a temporary, transitional thing. There’s enough demand for seasonal workers that bringing migrant labor from Mexico just makes sense. And people have been relying on said labor for years — they can’t just drop it overnight.

But, in order for it to work, and not drive Americans out of their jobs in the process, it must be subject to MINIMUM WAGE LAWS. Businesses should not be allowed to hire Mexican labor for less than they can legally hire American labor.

The bottom line is that U.S. businesses have been relying on an illegal solution. You can’t pull it out from under them without FIRST providing a legal alternative. What needs to be done, in the right order, is:

1) FIRST, implement a Guest Worker program, in which immigrants can enter the country on a temporary basis in a legal, well-documented fashion.

2) THEN, close up the gaps in the border to prevent more illegal immigrants from entering the country.

3) THEN, work on removing the illegal immigrants that are currently in the country.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at March 29, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #136615

Rob,
I’d be thrilled if that alone could be accomplished.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 11:23 AM
Comment #136616

All the talk on TV and blogs is good for information purposes; but what can the people of the U.S. do to stop this now????? The problem will only get worse!!!!

Posted by: Jean Richardson at March 29, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #136619

First it was the amnesties during Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan’s terms. Then came NAFTA and CAFTA and now another amesty. It is snowballing and the people of the U.S. need to act to stop our government from ruining this nation.

Posted by: kitkat at March 29, 2006 11:32 AM
Comment #136625

Rob, I have no problem, as I thought was evident, with immigrant work programs for agriculture which are temporary in nature. As I already said, the temporary nature of those jobs, the requirement to move every few weeks to month, makes them in very low demand for American citizen workers, even if they did pay 75% more than currently.

It is all of the rest of the jobs illegals are taking, many at below minimum wage, and most without any benefits at all, and some on a cash only basis, that are hurting American workers and our economic balance.

But your priority list is wrong. First priority is to halt all illegal crossings over the border. Fail to do that, and all the laws and enforcement won’t correct the illegal immigration problem in the first place. Once we have control of border crossings, then implement a guest worker program which the border controls can actually have some control over. And then deal with the resident illegal population by incorporating them or deporting them or some combination of both, which can ONLY be effective if we have halted the flow of illegals in the first place.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #136626

Secure the borders first.

But, that, and no other reform will ever occur until voters do the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, inexpensive, safe, peaceful and responsible thing that voters were supposed to be doing all along:



Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Otherwise, we deserve the consequences.
Democrats want votes.
Republicans want cheap labor.
So, nothing will happen until voters wake up.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 11:55 AM
Comment #136627

Jean, Call or write your Representatives. A phone call or letter carries a lot of weight, more than demonstrations if the numbers of calls and letters rival those of demonstrators.

kitkat, absolutely Right!

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 11:56 AM
Comment #136628

Yes! Voters had better do it fast, because illegal aliens are voting in their elections too.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 11:57 AM
Comment #136638

kitkat….sadly, we are already to that point! Reading all these different interpretations and potential solutions to this myriad of problems does little but give me a giant headache. We are so mired down in this issue, that I’d venture to say most of us on here will not live long enough to see significant changes.
Democrats are fighting to take seats, Republicans are fighting to keep them. Nobody wants to piss voters off….so who in the end loses…..?? If these representatives are nothing else, they are smart enough to know how to work the game and “buy” the votes.

“Only intelligence makes us richer. The hardest worker picking lettuce is worth much less than the lazy guy who invents a new machine to replace him.”

Posted by: Jack at March 28, 2006 11:28 PM
Do you really mean, Jack, that if a man gets off the couch, (and out of the welfare lies) and works to put a roof over his head and food on the table, that he has no value?? Not everyone can afford higher education, nor do they even want it. But, I think credit should be given where due….then when the business owners reduce the pay to the lower levels, “we” can’t afford to live on that. The illegals take the earnings, go back to Mexico and live quite well, though, and create a cycle of doing that!
On MSNBC this morning, the governor of New Mexico was saying that he is still waiting for the additional 165 INS officers he was promised months ago…and he also stated that the earnings from here, that the illegals take back into Mexico make up 30% of their economy. Fox is NOT going to do anything to rock that boat and help us control this problem.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 29, 2006 12:26 PM
Comment #136648

Sandra, you raise another cost factor to illegal immigration. The money they export back to their native country. It doesn’t get recirculated in our own economy helping to support jobs here in America.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 12:50 PM
Comment #136657

Sandra,

…and he also stated that the earnings from here, that the illegals take back into Mexico make up 30% of their economy. Fox is NOT going to do anything to rock that boat and help us control this problem.

That’s the other part of this problem that needs to be addressed. Not only do we need to look at where the illegals are going TO, we need to look at where they’re coming FROM. Maybe if we spent a little less money on rebuilding Iraq, and a little more on rebuilding Mexico, we wouldn’t have these problems.

David,

But your priority list is wrong. First priority is to halt all illegal crossings over the border.

I disagree. By implementing a Guest Worker program first, especially one with a minimum wage and other guarantees that immigrants don’t have today, you reduce the demand for illegal border crossing, and therefore make it easier to halt the illegal immigrations.

But, how about a compromise… do them both together. One bill that implements a Guest Worker program AND a serious border fence.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at March 29, 2006 01:15 PM
Comment #136662

I think the first step is to vote out all irresponsible incumbents.
: )
Otherwise, this issue will die soon after the elections.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 01:29 PM
Comment #136674

Here is a current news item, which addresses briefly the economic issue…

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060329/pl_nm/usa_immigration_mexico_dc_2&printer=1;_ylt=Aor63Gr6bVdt2E7AmytoiT0b.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 29, 2006 02:05 PM
Comment #136685

Personally I like Steve King’s New I.D.E.A. proposal:

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/workplaceverification.htm

Forget rounding up and deporting illegal workers. Simply require business to verify legality to work and disallow comanies to deduct incomes for illegal workers from their tax liabilities. When companies have to start paying higher taxes for hiring illegal workers (not to mention fines and penalties if caught deducting those incomes anyways) the financial impetus for hiring illegal workers will begin to lessen.

I have no problems with immigration in and of itself. I have many friends and aquaintances who came here from other countries/continents: Africa, India, China, Mexico, Central America, Sweden, ect. My great-grandmother and most of her kids (incuding my grandfather) immigrated here from Germany in the early 1900’s. The key here is they all came here legally. If you’re here illegally, it’s ILLEGAL, meaning it’s a crime and should be treated as such, and I have no problems with it being a felony and shipping you back where you came from (even if you happened to be a relative of mine).

Posted by: Don at March 29, 2006 02:35 PM
Comment #136727

Sandra

It is relative value ECONOMICALLY, nothing to do with their value as people. But it is clearly true that Bill Gates has contributed a lot more to the U.S. economy than I have. I don’t know if he works harder than I do (probably). I contribute more to the economy than an individual farm laborer. I know he works harder than I do, but his skills are less valuable.

As a group, farm workers are more valuable, but I am talking one to one and I am talking only economic value. Please understand that.

Society advances by productivity which is driven by brains, not braun. I don’t doubt that peasants in the Middle Ages worked really hard, but they produced very little. Using the accumulated knowlege and capital, I can produce more total food in a medium sized garden working every second Saturday than a whole family of peasants could do in 1400. That is the miracle of productivity and the process is not over by any means.

Posted by: Jack at March 29, 2006 05:34 PM
Comment #136728

Rob, with or without guest worker program, the Government has a Constitutional obligation to secure our borders, one they have abdicated for decades. Protect and Defend these United States is governments first obligation. That makes halting the illegal crossings the first priority in my mind. Terrorists have to be eyeing the porous borders. That makes it a first priority.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 05:35 PM
Comment #136750

We should start a pool to see if politicians drop this issue like a hot potato immediately after the elections in November.

This whole mess, a result of pandering and bought-and-paid-for politicians, is a slap in the face of all Americans.

In 2004, Lou Dobbs (CNN) reported 33% of our prison population is now comprised of illegal aliens. Other reports put it at 29% in 2003. The numbers are quickly growing (just like the National Debt) out of control.

And over 36% (upto 42% by some estimates) of illegal aliens are on welfare.

So, it appears that the American dream for millions of illegal aliens is crime and welfare … not coming here to work.

Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. They are losing. The cost out-weighs the benefits. It’s a net loss of $55,000 per illegal alien. Hell of a deal, eh ?

Of course, people have made up their mind already.
And, government will never truly address the issue. It’s all a huge game. This is how government whips us all into a frenzy, lures us into a pattern of circular thought and behavior, leads some to think that issue is finally being addressed, voters tire of it after a while, no reforms are ever actually implemented, and the irresponsible incumbent politicians move on to the next huge distraction, with the 98% assurance that they will be re-elected.

If only illegal aliens (and perhaps they do) knew how insincere U.S. politicians really are, they wouldn’t get so agitated about any of this. No matter what laws are passed, they will still be ignored, and un-enforced by the government.

At any rate, those that perpetuate the myth that illegal aliens are a net gain to society, reduce crime rates, are more law abiding, and pose no net loss to the economy, are simply misinformed, and should ask themselves who is making billions off this government-sanctioned criminal activity, and what they have to gain ?

Why have they ignored the problem for so long?

Now, in the big scheme of things, this illegal alien problem is not the most serious issue facing the U.S.

Neither is the National Debt,
or the Trade Deficits,
or Pork-Barrel,
or Election Reform,
or the Supreme Court,
or the Terrorism,
or Iraq,
or Social Security,
or Medicare,
or the aging population,
or corporate/investor fraud,
or global pillage,
or foreign policy that alienates allies,
or our unsecured ports,
or our dysfunctional legal system,
or gerrymandering,
or the GPBC & pensions $450 in the hole,
or our energy vulnerabilities, etc.

Nope.

The most serious issue facing this nation is:

  • (51%) the overall irresponsibility of the corrupt, bloated, FOR SALE, bought-and-paid-for federal, and

  • (49%) the laziness and failure of duped voters to do the one simple, common-sense, responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along, to peacefully force government to be responsible and accountable too.

So, no badly-needed, common-sense reforms will ever be passed or implemented as long as voters keep re-electing the same, crooked, irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for incumbents into the cu$hy seats of power, which they use to continue to use and abuse the very voters that put them there.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 09:17 PM
Comment #136789

Dan, put simply and logically, our laws requiring foreigners to process through a system of tests, evaluations, and approval or rejection, to reside in this country, were a bad idea from the beginning, OR, giving illegals rights to remain here now that they are already here, is a bad idea. Both cannot be true, logically.

Anyone who believes our immigration laws have been appropriate from the beginning of this country, is acting illogically if they also now hold that illegals should be allowed to remain. There are a great many illogical people out there on this issue, but the question is, should their illogical opinion govern this issue? Congress is acting illogically and irrationally on this issue, and many others. Should they be allowed to govern on this manner?

It really is that simple a matter.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 30, 2006 04:26 AM
Comment #136805

The first go around of amnesty for illigal aliens was for 1 million illegals(plus or minus) , back in the eighties. Now we are talking 12 to 20 million with more illegals arriving daily. The arguement back then was the same, they are doing work that Americans wont do. In 20 years we will be having this same discussion only it will be 50 to 60 million and counting illegals. Our reprsentatives are unable to put the best interests of the middle class at the forefront of this issue due to the special interests groups and their own relection. I am afraid that those cynical souls that are betting on the Dems and Repubs will compromise and then not enforce any measures that they do sign into law are right. It is time for viable 3rd and 4th parties to be elected on a national level and at unprecedented levels.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 30, 2006 08:08 AM
Comment #136809

David,

I know what you mean. Some, no matter where the overwhelming amount of data comes from (e.g. GAO report, FBI data, etc.), refuse to see the chaos, societal disorder, and net loss that results from massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration.

Most (if not all) of the arguments defending illegal immigration are so weak.

Some (if you argue against illegal immigration) say you are a racist.
Some say you are a xenophone.
Some say you fear your fellow human.
Some say you are a sinner.
Some say America will crumble without cheap labor.
Some say securing the borders is impossible.
Some say, despite the damning statistics, illegal aliens reduce the crime rates.
Some say they only come here to work, even though 29% our total prison population (federal and state) are illegal aliens, and 36% collect welfare.

The federal government has failed miserably to perform their one primary function.
And, they will continue to fail at it, and this issue will be forgotten again after the elections in November.

Democrats want votes.
Republicans want cheap labor.
Nothing will come of this talk of reform.

Americans have sold themselves out, and they are being crushed by the weight of their own laziness and stupidity.

Actually, Americans sold themselves out long ago, and they are merely witnessing the transfer of assets? Tax payers are losing billions per year. Our school, healthcare, hospital, law enforcement, voting, prison, insurance, welfare, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, universities, and border patrol systems are being severely burdened.

Congress is acting illogically and irrationally on this issue, and many others. Should they be allowed to govern on this manner?

Congress is acting illogically? Yep. As usual. Congress is truly pathetic and irresponsible. Most (if not all) are bought-and-paid-for. Government is FOR SALE. All irresponsible incumbent politicians should be voted out. But only the voters can make that happen, and voters have also forgotten what their one primary function is. Voters slumber while they are being robbed. No wonder politicians have such a disdain of voters.

So, this, and many other problems continue to grow in number and severity.

What is it going to take before Americans wake up?

Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 09:20 AM
Comment #136814

You know, there doesn’t seem to be much of a question about us knowing what the problems are we’re facing. And..a number are making some great suggestions on how to fix them….but there is this yawning gap between WHAT to do and HOW to do it. I still fervently maintain we are suffering greatly from apathy. I don’t know at this moment what the figures are for the percentage of registered voters who actually get out and vote.
We become disenfranchised with our representatives….just plain angry at their actions, but maybe it’s the idea of staying with what we know, rather than stepping into the unknown. I believe that theory has been credited, in part, with the re-election of GW. Then there is a significant number of voters who were literally denied the ability to even get a ballot. But possibly the biggest contributor to the apathetic mode “we’ve” fallen into, is all the manipulation with the ballots….and the Diebold syndrome……. We reach a point where we just figure, “what’s the point?”… There’s a logical part of me that knows giving up doesn’t win a fight, but even when we win…..we lose! This administration blatantly sneers at the complaints and thumbs its nose at the laws while running its’ own agenda ,specifically, and running amok in general.
Oh, I’ll be at the polls again to make my mind known, but that’s because I resent anyone trying to control me and bend my will, and I’m just plain stubborn.
We babyboomers had our day in the sun, and we’ve got fewer elections in front of us than we do behind us….but do our kids and grandkids have the same resoloution that we do, or had? It makes me really sad to see this country sliding out of esteem, and I’m really sorry about the legacy we’re leaving our kids…but in actuality, I’m kinda glad I won’t have to see it……………..

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 30, 2006 10:05 AM
Comment #136816

Sandra Davidson,

There are about 200 million eligible American voters (excluding illegal aliens that also fraudulently vote in our elections).
In the last 2004 presidential election,
59 million voted for Kerry.
62 million voted for Bush.
78 million did not vote.

You are right.
Our irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, lazy, do-nothing, FOR SALE incumbent politicians ignore the voters. Why? Look at their re-election rates. 98% for the Senate.

The most serious issue facing this nation is:

  • (51%) the overall irresponsibility of the corrupt, bloated, FOR SALE, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians, and

  • (49%) the laziness and failure of duped voters to do the one simple, common-sense, responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along, to peacefully force government to be responsible and accountable too.

Yes, the legacy we are leaving our children is sad, not to mention the massive, debt of nightmare proportions.

Only the voters can change it now, before we all learn the hard way (again).

Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 10:17 AM
Comment #136817

We are dying a death of a thousand tiny cuts.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 10:20 AM
Comment #136818

A broken border will make a broken country - Abe Villarrael, September 22, 2005

Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 10:23 AM
Comment #136824

Sandra, I just got off the phone with my Sen. Cornyn’s office, to express my support for his refusal to foster amnesty, but also, to demand that a physical impediment to illegal immigration be established at our borders. Sen. Cornyn just moments ago, got off the Senate floor with discussion of more money, more agents, more technology to secure our border. But, not one mention of a physical border to block illegal immigration. This is just unacceptable. Anyone with a lick of sense knows the security begins with a perimiter, and enforcement of that perimeter begins with detection of breaches of that perimeter.

Enforcement without a perimeter that blocks penetration and detects penetration, is NOT border security. It is just another way for politicians to sound tough about border security without actually creating border security.

This is what you and other Americans can and must do. Hold these politicians accountable NOW, and in November at election time. DO NOT let them get away with empty and idle promises that utterly FAIL to solve problems which our nation faces.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 30, 2006 11:01 AM
Comment #136826

P.S. I just got off the phone with the same message to Sen. Hutchison of my state of Texas. I implore others reading this topic to do the same. It is simple. Google your Senators name with the word “contact” which will bring up a page with the Senators contact information and phone numbers. Then, just give them a call. Speak your mind. This is simple, takes only a couple minutes, and you feel good about yourself.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 30, 2006 11:13 AM
Comment #136833

Thank you d.a.n. for the stats….and both you and David for the encouragement, again. I’ll never quit the fight, but I do get tired, and kind of need a “transfusion” from time to time.
I have a good friend who works with (or for) one of the decent Congresspersons here in Ohio…..and I am always in his face about something..and he even occasionally passes the concerns along to her…….

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 30, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #136840

If you have nothing better to do for a couple of minutes…..and this shows the percentage of Hispanic voters per state..
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/30/politics/30hispanics.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 30, 2006 11:38 AM
Comment #136842

I just called and E-Mailed Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison and Senator John Cornyn.
I didn’t get to talk directly with them, but they allowed me to express my opinion. So I did.
____________ THE LETTER __________________
Physical borders are required.
Amnesty will be and invitation to more illegal aliens.
The federal government is failing at its primary function.

Legal, regulated immigration is OK. Even good.
Uncontrolled, massive immigration is not OK. It is also illegal, and creates chaos and societal disorder.

First of all, let me say that I do not hate any one from any nation. This is not an issue of race, class, nationality, etc.

There are many issues.
Crime is a serious issue.
29% of our prison population are illegal aliens.

But, crime is only part of the many other issues:
[] burden on education systems;
[] burden on healthcare systems;
[] burden on hospital systems;
[] burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on U.S. welfare;
[] burden on Social Security system; falsified numbers;
[] burden on Medicaid system;
[] burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;
[] burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;
[] burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;
[] burden on prison systems; 29% of state and federal prisoners (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;
[] voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

Please take action now to address this issue.
__________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 11:42 AM
Comment #136852
I’ll never quit the fight, but I do get tired, and kind of need a “transfusion” from time to time.
I understand. Sometimes it seems futile. But, we can’t know that for certain. And, doing nothing will solve nothing. So, the logical thing is to try.
If you have nothing better to do for a couple of minutes…..and this shows the percentage of Hispanic voters per state.
It’s not the votes of legal immigrants that bother me. It’s the votes of the illegal aliens that bother me. Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 12:18 PM
Comment #136853

I understand that as a concern….but this would seem to be what the reps. would look at as far as who they need to schmooze….

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 30, 2006 12:26 PM
Comment #136854

These people have lived here for years, many of them have children, they have worked hard, and they aspire to become Americans.

We took advantage of their cheap labour, and let them stay here with a wink and a nod.

Let them stay. We need them for our economy to stay on track anyway, throwing them out seems inhumane, and after 11 more years of hard work I say they deserve citizenship. If we want to have tougher immigration laws that are more severely enforced we should start doing that now.

Posted by: Max at March 30, 2006 12:26 PM
Comment #136868

just a personal aside here…a few months back, not far from where I am, a Korean family was devastated by actions imposed by the INS. The man and his wife had come here several years ago..married, had a son, continued to live, work, pay taxes and live as part of the community, until someone, somehow discovered that the woman’s paperwork had never been finished for her permanent status. She was JAILED 2 or 3 times, and ultimately a few months later was scheduled for deportment. In the interim, they made arrangements with friends of the family for the son to remain here, with them and to finish high school…..the man and woman went back to Korea. She wasn’t allowed to do what had been unfinished……..
Then……we have the case of the Canadian skater….who was granted permanent status in a rush job so she could compete and win a gold medal for us. Am I the only one who sees this as inequality?? Perhaps while we’re revamping the laws, we could ask for some consistency…(silly of me).

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 30, 2006 12:54 PM
Comment #136877

Sandra Davidson,
Nope, Some see it. But most don’t.
Most voters are stewed tomatoes.
I used to be one of those stewed tomatoes.

Max, have you really examined the illegal immigration from all angles? Have you been to Laredo, Tx? 27 Americans are missing in the last 6 months.
29% of our prison 2.2 million prison population are illegal aliens. 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for many illegal aliens, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

But, crime is just part of it. There are other serious issues, such as the:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;
  • Estimates in 2004 were that the average illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each. Some bargain, eh?
    The economy does not depend on illegal aliens. Mostly only the greedy CEOs (making $100 million per year). Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. They are losing. The cost out-weighs the benefits. It’s a net loss.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 01:24 PM
    Comment #136946

    Border Patrol told to stand down in Arizona


    By Jerry Seper
    THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.


    Did a state give up it’s right to protect it’s borders when entering into the union? It is designated the federal government’s responsibility in the constitution. The tenth ammendment does not apply. Does that prohibit the state from doing so?

    If the Minuteman Volunteers are doing the job then why shouldn’t they have the authority to do it effectively? They could do the job and demand compensation from the federal government. It says provide for the security of the United States. It didn’t say provide the power needed for the security of the United States. Just provide. Provide as in monetary support.

    It would be easy to close borders. The human race has been doing it for a very long time. It’s a little more difficult when you can’t stop anyone from walking thru. But it would also be easy to build a wall. The human race has been doing it for a very long time.

    Go ahead, build a wall.

    Then imagine the entire Mexican population in all of the Unites States moving to Texas. Imagine them establishing residency and starting to vote. In six years the entire state would be in the hands of the Mexican Population. With the population in this country they could also occupy New Mexico and Arizona easily. What would follow? The next civil war? Or would they choose the current flag and invite their neighboring states to join as well?
    What better way to bust up the D.C. elite than to invite the rest of the continent to join? Same flag, more stars.

    What about the free trade agreements that have been signed? What of those treaties if we build a wall? Are they null and void? What of enforcing border checkpoints? How are we to facilitate the legitimate migration across our borders when we have a wall?

    Wouldn’t inclusion into the United States be a legitimate alternative? I’m sure not all Mexicans are lawless moungrels. The only reason they are here is because they expect to better themselves. Some may not understand what is required of them but they all want the same thing. The prosperity and liberty and security of a United States.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 06:04 PM
    Comment #136953

    All we need is are patrolled fences.
    See: WeNeedAFence.com
    Technology can help significantly.
    Don’t believe anyone who says securing the border is difficult.
    If it were true, then why do they worry?
    Even without a fence, a mere 1% (i.e. 26,000) of all 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves could secure all 6000 miles of land borders (4000mi U.S./Canada, and 2000mi U.S./Mexico) with troops spaced 1218 feet apart.

    However, the real problem with this and many problems facing the nation is that bought-and-paid-for, corrupt, FOR-SALE politicians will forget the issue soon after the November elections. Every once in a while, maybe in 2008, they’ll pull it out again, get everyone worked up, and then forget it again. That’s simply what corrupt incumbent politicians do, and have been doing for decades, as pressing problems continually, decade after decade, go ignored.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 06:29 PM
    Comment #136957

    What happens when a car pulls up to the fence?

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 06:35 PM
    Comment #136970

    Wearie willie has never heard of fences with gates? Or checkpoints?

    Posted by: womanmarine at March 30, 2006 07:06 PM
    Comment #136971

    The guy 400 yards away isn’t going to leave his post when the car goes speeding thru his field of vision. He may take a few pot shots at it but he isn’t going to stop the car.

    The Mexicans aren’t our enemy. They’re really poor and can’t really influence us as a country. But there are power in numbers and if we could include them into our political process they would be equal and they could define the minimum requirements of a human being. Something we may have forgot.
    They could also define a work ethic. Something we may have forgot.
    They could also define the family and religion. Something we may have forgot.

    Spain would be proud if Mexico became the next wave of states admitted into the Union.

    France and England would both say “Geesh, It’s about time”, if thirteen northern states entered the Union.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 07:06 PM
    Comment #136988

    No wonder you’re a woman marine.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 07:51 PM
    Comment #136990

    Weary Willie

    First really original idea I’ve seen regarding immigration. Too often it’s the racists trying to keep out the brown-skinned people, or the capitalists trying to drive down their labor costs, or the naive pro-labor folks who believe that illegal immigration is what threatens their jobs, or even the anti-tax folks who think that illegals are driving up government costs.

    I think it would be a proud, patriotic moment if we could incorporate all our near neighbors (including our “territory”, Puerto Rico) into our union. Of course, that would require them to want it, and I’m pretty sure that Canada would be skeptical, especially given the value of our stock in world opinion right now. But as a dream, I really like it, especially because it would force us to grow not only physically as a country, but also in our sense of the world as full of diverse and valuable human beings. Besides that, it would make us into an economic powerhouse once again, rather than the moribund, decadent has-been state we’re becoming.

    Posted by: Mental Wimp at March 30, 2006 07:55 PM
    Comment #136994

    All of the mechanics are in the history of this nation.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 08:01 PM
    Comment #136998

    Reminds me of something else, slightly off topic. I am in a highly technical field, and I’ve known for years that these fields were becoming more and more Asian in compexion: Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese, Indian, etc. A lot of them are immigrants and they are doing work native-born US citizens are not willing to do: difficult mental work. I look around and see very few young people who look like me. As the aging white guys like myself die off, the reins of power will belong to the brightest, and they will be recent immigrants and their progeny. Barring a misguided attempt to put them at a legal disadvantage, the future will belong to those who don’t look like me. And I am happy with that. But I think a lot of you whose basest fear is that the country is ruined by an influx of people who look different are going to be mighty disappointed, even if you convince the government to stop tolerating illegals. You’ll win the battle, but the war is already lost, so your victory will be Pyrrhic.

    Posted by: Mental Wimp at March 30, 2006 08:08 PM
    Comment #136999

    Some states in Canada have expressed their desire to be independant. Texas was an independant state before its annexation. There is no reason whatsoever another state couldn’t gain independance and elect to join the Union.
    No reason whatsoever.
    We should encourage other states to increase the ranks of the senate while pledging loyality to the President of these United States.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 08:11 PM
    Comment #137000

    And to the Flag of these United States.
    (insert flag banner here)

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 08:20 PM
    Comment #137001

    d.a.n.
    Do you have a flag you could be wavin’ ?

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 08:25 PM
    Comment #137002

    How about it, Remer?. Got a flag?

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 08:26 PM
    Comment #137006

    We need a WALL first of all. Stop the illegals going in then deal with those inside.

    The Wall must be there.

    Posted by: Aldous at March 30, 2006 09:09 PM
    Comment #137007

    The world loves the United States. I don’t care what the media says. I know it’s true. The world Loves The United States.

    We are the most stable government in the world because we are the most unstable and we always work through our problems. We are where everyone wants to be and we are hated by those who cannot be here.

    We wouldn’t need a United Nations if each state had a couple of senators. How big would the building be if we needed two chairs for every state in the world.

    That may very well solve the soft wood problem between Canada and these United States.

    Or is that a problem?

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 09:11 PM
    Comment #137010

    Weary Willie:

    So you want America to be an Asian Country instead of a Latino one, eh? To speak Hindi and Mandarin instead of Spanish!!! To be a Buddhist State!!!

    How dare you!!! How dare you!!!!

    America will always be a CHRISTIAN God-fearing, English-speaking, Caucasian Country!!!

    Posted by: Aldous at March 30, 2006 09:24 PM
    Comment #137012

    Woah, dude! What’s up with that? Holy Moly, How dare I? For what? Proposing a long standing procedure for statehood? How dare I?
    zege hiel i guess aldous
    Rasberries to you.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 09:32 PM
    Comment #137013

    Weary Willie,
    First of all, the issue (for me anyway) has nothing to do with race, nationality, etc.
    It has to do with chaos and societal disorder that always results from massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration.
    But, we waited too long, as usual, to deal with the problem. Now it is out of control.

    Therefore, Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy are working with Vicinte Fox on the new flag.

    Like it ?

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 09:34 PM
    Comment #137015

    No.

    It still has the same amount of stars.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 09:38 PM
    Comment #137017

    Nope. Look closely. I added one on the lower right of the blue field.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 09:48 PM
    Comment #137018

    POEM - Illegal Immigrants

    I cross ocean,
    poor and broke,
    Take bus,
    see employment folk.
    Nice man
    treat me good in there,
    Say I need
    go see Welfare.
    Welfare say,
    “You come no more,
    We send cash
    right to your door.”
    Welfare checks,
    they make you wealthy,

    Medicaid
    it keep you healthy!
    By and by,
    Got plenty money,
    Thanks to you,
    taxpayer dummy.
    Write to friends
    in motherland,
    Tell them
    ‘come, fast as you can’
    They come in turbans
    and Ford trucks,
    I buy big house
    with welfare bucks.
    They come here,
    we live together,
    More welfare checks,
    it gets better!
    Fourteen families,
    they moving in,
    But neighbor’s patience
    wearing thin.
    Finally, neighbor guy
    moves away,
    I buy his house,
    and then I say,
    “Find more aliens
    for house to rent.”
    In my yard
    I put a tent.
    Send for family
    they want cash,
    So they, too,
    draw welfare cash!
    Everything is
    very good,
    Soon we own
    whole neighborhood.
    Welfare pay
    for baby feeding.
    Kids need dentist?
    Wife need pills?
    We get free!
    We got no bills!
    Taxpayer crazy!
    He pay all year,
    To keep welfare
    running here.
    We think America
    darn good place!
    Too darn good
    for gringo face.

    If they no like us,
    they can scram,
    Got lots of room
    in Pakistan.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 09:55 PM
    Comment #137020

    Perhaps we have lost faith in our ideals just before they were to bear fruit. We tout the VIOD mentality but now we make jokes. What position are we in when the VOID is actually here.

    Following the path of voting out the encumbant would lead to a VOID. A Nothing. Not a really good alternative to what we have now.

    I thought this was a good post until the administration was mentioned. That’s when it became another bla bla bla.

    We are a nation that welcomes those described on the statue of liberty?. I think that’s not good enough now. We have to export what is described on the statue of liberty.

    How do we do that? Buy some Canadian softwood, build some chairs and set them in the Senate.

    All those in favor say, “Yea”.

    Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 10:07 PM
    Comment #137021
    No wonder you’re a woman marine. Posted by: Weary Willie at March 30, 2006 07:51 PM

    And proud of both, thank you.

    This thread has certainly gone down the tubes.

    Posted by: womanmarine at March 30, 2006 10:26 PM
    Comment #137022

    Weary Willie,
    In my opinion, fences make good neighbors.
    Broken borders can lead to broken nations.
    I want the borders secured.
    It’s got nothing to do with race.
    It’s the crime, and burdens on our education, healthcare, welfare, social security, medicaid, insurance, prisons, law enforcement, and voting systems.

    The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

    The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

    THE SOLUTION:
    [] Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)
    [] Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
    [] Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
    [] Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
    [] Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
    [] Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
    [] Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
    [] Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.


    But, I’m fairly certain this issue, like many before it, will fade away, soon after the November elections.

    Americans have sold themselves out, and are being crushed by the weight of their laziness and stupidity. Perhaps Americans sold themselves out long ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of assets?

    No reforms (including immigration reform) are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


    Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 10:30 PM
    Comment #137026

    I agree with d.a.n. We need a wall. A physical barrier will work wonders in keeping illegals out.

    Posted by: Aldous at March 30, 2006 11:04 PM
    Comment #137039


     Find a way to settle, not to dispute;
      用一种明确的方法解决争议,不要冒犯;
      Never judge people by their appearance;
      永远不要以貌取人;
      Speak slowly, but think quickly;

    Posted by: joy at March 31, 2006 04:33 AM
    Comment #137040

    Aldous, it won’t keep ALL illegals from trying to cross, but, a physical barrier can detect breaches of the barrier allowing small rapid response teams to intercept the few that would attempt a breach.

    My addition would be a high voltage low amperage fence that stings like a bitch when touched as the center fence. This could potentially act as the detection fence by monitoring surges.

    Such a fence would have high initial cost, but, would pay dividends for the next century. In addition, the fence eliminates the need for so many border patrol personnel, and over decades that helps pay for the initial construction cost.

    Border security without an effective barrier on the border will always be a standing joke and synonym for utterly ineffective.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at March 31, 2006 04:36 AM
    Comment #137041

    Can’t this site support Chinese?

    Posted by: kit at March 31, 2006 04:36 AM
    Comment #137051

    So, you want to build a fence longer than the Great Wall of China, and monitor every bit of it? Our land borders: 5317 miles. Let’s hope nobody invents a shovel. And what about the sea borders? The fence just sounds like an exercise in futility to me - too many ways to get around any fence. Even my dog can get around a fence.

    Sandra - I live in New Mexico & I directly feel the impact on our economy. Yes, jobs are hard to get here, sometimes because they are held illegally. The state of schools here is … so bad that when I moved here in 1985, after being a 4.0 student in CA, I dropped out of high school in the first 6 weeks in NM. (Luckily my single mom sacrificed for private school after that.) Seems like nobody has healthcare here except the very poor. Yes that’s my tax money providing healthcare to illegal immigrants while I have none. In fact, none of my friends have healthcare either.

    I say all that only to sort of ‘prove my qualifications’ when I say we’re looking at this all backwards. Here I try at the opposite angle:

    1. FIX legal immigration. Perhaps if it didn’t take 5+ years, thousand of dollars, and 5 million forms, then more might apply legally for residency. (I am still waiting on my husband’s papers after 5+ years… Where are our INS workers?) Sometimes getting legal feels impossible.

    2. Implement a Guest Worker program which does NOT lead to residency or citizenship. But make it simpler and fairer. 4 or 5 years per person then byebye; it’s somebody else’s turn after that. (Not everyone who comes to this country wants to be a citizen.)

    3. NAFTA. How has free trade helped Mexico? Immigration has only increased since then. We must shrink the income gap to the point where people can stay in Mexico with their families, instead of working here all alone, and sending the money back. Would you do that if you could make a living wage at your home? Shrinking the income gap will be better for us in the long run, both relieving pressure on our social systems and establishing a strong ally in the fight on drugs & terrorism.

    4. Convince large corporations that outsourcing to Mexico is better than to other countries. (Why is my computer being shipped to India for repairs? If those jobs are going to be outsourced overseas, why not to Mexico instead?)

    5. Deport any criminal alien, who commits any violent crime or drug-dealing offense. Why are we paying to keep them in prison? Send them to prison in their own countries.

    6. Focus on fixing the real complaints here. Maybe… the real complaints are not so much what illegals have, but what I DON’T have. We need to focus on education & healthcare for the middle class American.

    :) Squeaky



    Posted by: Squeaky at March 31, 2006 07:17 AM
    Comment #137093

    The 10 Step Solution:
    (1) First, Vote out all irresponsible incumbents. Do this first. Otherwise, this issue will fade after elections in November. Actually, that’s what voters were supposed to be doing all along. Nothing will ever get better until voters start doing their part.
    (2) Prosecute employers of illegal aliens (fines and prison sentences)
    (3) Build the fence (see above). Use siesmic, motion, and thermal sensors. A mere 1% of all U.S. military, guard, and reserves can place a person every 1218 feet of 4000 mile US/Canada border and the 2000 mile US/Mexico border. It’s not hard, and most resources, we already have.
    (4) Record biometrics of apprehended illegal aliens, and those convicted of felonies, so we can determine repeat offenders.
    Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves).
    (5) Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
    (6) Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
    (7) Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
    (8) Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
    (9) Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
    (10) Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 11:14 AM
    Comment #137167

    What I find interesting is what I continually hear and see on the TV news broadcasts. Let me clarify first that I am not talking about a single news source like ABC, FOX, NBC, CNN, etc. If the newsclip is running I simply watch it. So in my mind I am not seeing or hearing a politicized comment.

    The scenario
    (Almost always in a rural or urban construction setting). One or more typically American business owners/managers are being asked about the quantity, reliability, work rate and so on of the “illigal immigrant” on their work site. In what seems like a percentage well above 90, the response is favorable toward the undocumented worker. “We couldn’t be in business without them”, “they are not taking jobs that American workers want to or can do”, “we can’t find any local workers, to do this work”, and so on.

    The talk about the rights and wrongs of the wall is fine but, many companies have long past anticipated the wall. They are simply sourcing their manufacturing needs off shore.

    I would favor the wall but, I fear that without government reform in import/export regulations it will always be (the wall) a day late and a dollar short. The wall can be a supporting tool but, not the complete answer.

    Posted by: steve smith at March 31, 2006 04:54 PM
    Comment #137198

    What amazes me is the intolerance here of even the liberals.

    All the immigrants want is a job to raise their standard of living. That should not be a crime.

    A guest worker program should be considered simply due to the reality of 11-12 million illegals we have winked at up to now.

    Amerika with barbed wire and machine gun turrets isn’t my idea of security. Our founding fathers devised security through democratic values, by giving voice to the downtrodden, we can mute their anger and violence.

    Oil independence will free us from the middle east violence which we have helped to create ove the last century. That doesn’t mean we should not have a military defense or border patrol.

    Radical Muslims’ weakest part is truly open discussion, that admits our part in the oppression of Arabs, and acknowledges their violence and perversion of Islam.

    Walls didn’t work with the Berlin Wall or The Great Wall of China. It won’t work now. Don’t make Mexico our enemy here. Our fear of Muslim Radicals shouldn’t be laid upon latino aspirations for a better life.

    Oil independance is an economic choice we MUST make. The oil companies are large and influencial and will not go quietly into the night. That is our biggest battle.


    Posted by: gergle at March 31, 2006 10:49 PM
    Comment #137199

    gergle,

    The fence is not to keep people in.
    It is to keep illegals out.
    Anyone can come here if they do so legally.

    Also, to say they come here for work only is not true. Many, but not all.
    32% of illegal aliens are on welfare.
    29% of our federal prison populations are illegal aliens. 267,000 of 2,200,000 prisoners are illegal aliens (in all state and federal prisons). So, for some, the American dream is welfare and crime.

    [] From 1947 to 2003, 5992 people have been murdered by illegal aliens. The crime rates in many cities are rising.
    [] 12/31/2002 - The six-month figures revealed a 3.3 percent increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.
    [] PHOENIX – Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45 percent increase in homicides and 41 percent increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, D–Dist. 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist or xenophobe)
    [] In Los Angeles, 95% of all outstanding homicide warrants and 66 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens.
    [] GAO Report (GAO-05-646R) dated 9-May-2005, stated the average arrest record of a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens averaged 8 arrests per illegal alien; 81% of arrests occurred after 1990.
    [] American taxpayers are paying for the crimes of the 8,000 convicted aliens not yet caught and the incarceration costs of those who have been.
    [] 60% of the county’s uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens. More than half are here illegally. About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone are crowding emergency, while U.S. citizens wait (and some die).

    But, crime is just part of it. There are other serious issues:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;
  • So, if none of that bothers you, then please continue to make excuses for illegal aliens. They’ll love you for it. Maybe you don’t mind if they come stay with you a while. Should they get your permission first?

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 11:28 PM
    Comment #137231

    Gergle:

    The argument that the US is turning from its historical roots by restricting immigration is fallacious. America has had many waves of immigrants, but immigrants from Europe came through controlled entry areas where they were registered and approved. People weren’t sneaking in from Ireland by the millions.

    Perhaps you would understand why many people are “intolerant” of people breaking into America if you lived in one of the areas that they migrate through. Illegals have become increasingly hostile to US residents who live on the nation’s borders. There are escalating reports of damaged property, threats and assaults on US citizens by illegals entering the country.

    US citizens frustrated by the growing problem who have attempted to defend themselves and their property have been brought up in criminal and civil court. It seems these poor, suffering pawns of our draconian labor system have more rights than the people who pay to support the system through their tax dollars. In border states, groups like the Minute Men are largely supported because border residents have no one else to turn to for protection from illegals.

    Also, there are growing indications that an increasing number of illegals do not come here to do an honest day’s work for a fair pay, rather they are here to operate criminal ventures. Gang activity by illegals in on the rise and unlike the insular West Side story gangs who fought largely with each other, these young men are actively interacting with American society muling drugs and other illegals over the border. Violent attacks on US Border Guards by illegals they attempted to intercept used to be rare but now it is becoming more common to offer armed resistance.

    Ultimately, it is the right of a nation to decide who can enter and under what conditions. We can debate the merits of immigration policy all day long but if the discussion is not based upon the premise that exclusivity is a sovereign right of nationhood then we throw the rule of law away and live like savages without a country.

    Posted by: goodkingned at April 1, 2006 03:44 AM
    Comment #137262

    Also folks, they are bringing infectious disease. Legal immigrants are screened for everything from syphillis to TB. Our border areas have very significantly higher numbers of TB and hepatitis due to illegal immigration. Malaria too can be brought in their blood streams and passed around through mosquitoes. This is not healthy for Americans. And the 12-20 million already here, have never been screened either.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at April 1, 2006 11:01 AM
    Comment #137298

    Good point David.
    Disease is one issue that is often overlooked among the other numerous serious issues:


    • increasing crime rates;

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems;

    • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare;

    • burden on Social Security system;

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

    • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 1, 2006 02:39 PM
    Comment #139798

    My wife is from Sweden. We are both worked hard to pay our own way through college, and have NO criminal records. We have very little money because paying back college loans. My wife had to pay a ton of money to laywers and the U.S. government for immigration papers, wait in rediculously long lines for hours again and again, and wait forever many times over, in addition to many other hoops to jump through for her ability to get citizenship and legal status. Why should we make my wife do all this just because she has light skin and comes from Sweden, while people coming illegally from Mexico, etc, get a free ride and after breaking the law and laughing at our process and system, and cheating our country, get a free ride. Why discriminate against my wife? Everyone must do it the right way… the legal way, and all be treated the same! Do it legally, or don’t do it at all!

    Posted by: mark at April 11, 2006 04:20 AM
    Comment #140054

    It is a slap in the face for all the legal immigrants who endure to become citizens while abiding by our laws. I see the GOP is about to cave in to the illegal’s demonstrations this last week. They can no longer dismiss the losses at the polls in November of their previous 40% of the Hispanic vote. Appeasement for reelectability is now the only avenue left them. But, the 64 Million dollar question is, if the capitulate and recapture say 35% of their Hispanic vote, how many legal immigrant and white votes will they lose?

    The political math just stepped up to calculus.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at April 11, 2006 10:07 PM
    Comment #140259

    Mark,
    I agree. Those playing by the rules should not be punished with all that bureaucratic nonsense. I don’t know why the U.S. government does that to people that play by the rules, but give free welfare, Medicaid, education, Social Security, and healthcare to those that illegally trespass our borders.

    I don’t think it has anything to do with your wife’s light skin color. The problem is that the American people have lazily let irresponsible and dishonest politicians hijack the government. Voters have the method right under their stupid noses to remedy the situation, but not enough voters are smart enought to do that. They pull the party levers and have no idea who they vote for most of the time.

    This picture exemplifies the problem:

    Politicians and Voters deserve each other.
    Politicians crap all over the voters, and the voters let them do it over and over.
    Politicians keep crappin’ on voters, and voters keep re-electing the very incumbent politicians that keep crappin’ on them.

    And, who makes out like bandits?
    Politicians and illegal aliens.
    Voters and thoese that play be the rules get crapped on.

    Questions ?

    If voters want to change it, they’ll have to get off their lazy, complacent, whinin’ butts and do the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer thing they were supposed to be doing all along.

    Or, keep doin’ nothin’ and watch the transfer of assets from voters’ to those that cheat the system.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 04:48 PM
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