Third Party & Independents: Archives

This is kind of a repeat for me, but I can’t agree with you more! Having lived in central California for 40 years, I have first-hand knowledge of the near crisis level this has reached. Yes, there was a time when the “migrant workers” came up and followed the crops, helping to pick, pack, and process the yeilds. At the end of the season, they went back home, with wages that allowed them to live relatively well until the next season. Since they were migrant, they didn’t ( and this part may sound cold and callous ) burden the community they worked in. Actually the farmers and land owners provided them with housing and food was plentiful.
Things have changed significantly over the years though, and the anglo are now minorities per population. You will find the immigrants living in multiple family households, or just the males, with most of them driving relatively new vehicles, without benefit of licensing or insurance. Get in an accident?? Not a big deal…nothing ventured, nothing gained, or lost. Therefore, the insurance premiums are out of sight !
The social assistance programs, welfare, medical coverage, food stamps, are given out in their direction and needy legal residents go without. Insurance companies serving California are now encouraging their members to seek medical and dental care in Mexico !!!!!! What’s wrong with this picture??
Bottom line is that I don’t know if a wall is the best answer….the recently discovered tunnels would validate that. If they can’t walk, crawl, or swim in, they will dig under and in. What others have said before is still worth heeding, and that is to keep the businesses at fault for illegal hiring and held responsible unless they see valid proof of citizenship.
Don’t believe with the current administration in either country, will we see any positive moves in this direction. The U.S. is aiding Mexico’s economy big time and I’m pretty sure that Fox is most appreciative.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 24, 2006 03:49 PM

Mr. Martin,

You’ve got my full backing with this column

The United States is being morphed into a universal country with a universal culture - a region on the earth’s surfance… serving only as an economic sanctuary.

Posted by: Mike Tate at March 24, 2006 04:10 PM

V,

Felons? A wall? I’m surprised at you.

I relate this to the drug problem. It’s pointless to blame the addict, you need to reduce the demand and penalize the dealer.
Addict:
Go after the immigrants what do you do? Send them home or send the to jail. If they go home, they come back. If they go to jail we’ll go broke from the prison bills.
Dealer:
So, IMO, when it comes to illegal workers the most effective solution I see is imposition of large fines on the users of the illegal labor.
If there are no jobs, they will not come.
Enablers:
Are you willing to pay more for your grapes and salad?

Posted by: Dave at March 24, 2006 04:53 PM

V. Edward Martin, Ms Davidson and myself in total agreement?
Head for the hills everybody.

GREAT piece Mr. Martin.

Posted by: kctim at March 24, 2006 05:15 PM

Oregon raised their minimum wage. Oregon’s economy took off after the minimum wage increase. So, much for the conservative’s argument that raising minimum wage will hurt the economy. On balance, it will be a stimulus, something Henry Ford very clearly understood. And now something like 39 states are considering raising the minimum wage for their states.

Raising the minimum wage will attract American workers to the jobs. But, as Mr. Martin points out, our immigration policy subverts and undercuts the supply and demand relationship for jobs and legal American workers.

I agree with Mr. Martin, entirely. Halt illegal immigration will pay far bigger dividends to our nation’s security and to American workers and the economy, more than compensating for the losses to businesses of cheap, illegal labor.

But, you will have to write your Congress Persons to make it happen, because their is a lack of concensus at the moment in Congress. Many Democrats don’t want to alienate the Hispanic voters, and many Repuhblicans don’t want to alienate wealthy contributors who benefit from the illegal labor at below minumum wages. Write them. Enough of them will listen to make this happen.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 24, 2006 05:18 PM

V. Edward Martin,

You are absolutely correct.
I prefer to call it illegal trespassing.

First of all, this has nothing to do with race, or class, or anything of the sort. So, please, don’t play the race card, and please don’t try to portray them as no harm to our society until you’ve carefully researched it.

Not all illegal aliens come here to work.
A whole lot of them commit serious crimes.
They also burden our school, welfare, health care, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems.

But, this is not merely give you anectdotal evidence. Just the facts.

CRIME:
Here is a GAO Report (9-May-2005) for illegal alien arrest offenses of a study group population of 55,322 illegal aliens.

In total, those 55,532 illegal aliens were arrested for almost 700,000 offenses, averaging 13 offenses per illegal alien:
[] Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.
[] Total number of arrests: 459,614.
[] Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890.
[] Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13.
[] Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10.
__________
Arrest Offenses: 45% of illegal alien offenses were for drugs and immigration:

Criminal offense: Drugs;
Total offenses: Number: 166,722;
Total offenses: Percent: 24%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 64,737;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 24%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 101,985;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 24%;

Criminal offense: Immigration;
Total offenses: Number: 144,166;
Total offenses: Percent: 21%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 84,382;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 32%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 59,784;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 14%;

Criminal offense: Traffic violations;
Total offenses: Number: 55,060;
Total offenses: Percent: 8%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 13,290;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 41,770;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 10%;

Criminal offense: Assault;
Total offenses: Number: 50,958;
Total offenses: Percent: 7%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 14,908;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 6%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 36,050;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 8%;

Criminal offense: Obstruction of justice;
Total offenses: Number: 45,632;
Total offenses: Percent: 7%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 15,064;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 6%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 30,568;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 7%;

Criminal offense: Burglary;
Total offenses: Number: 38,689;
Total offenses: Percent: 6%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 13,156;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 25,533;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 6%;

Criminal offense: Larceny/theft;
Total offenses: Number: 31,883;
Total offenses: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 12,206;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 19,677;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 5%;

Criminal offense: Fraud, forgery, and counterfeiting;
Total offenses: Number: 25,773;
Total offenses: Percent: 4%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 8,564;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 17,209;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 4%;

Criminal offense: Weapons violations;
Total offenses: Number: 22,263;
Total offenses: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 7,236;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 15,027;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 4%;

Criminal offense: Motor vehicle theft;
Total offenses: Number: 20,950;
Total offenses: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 6,494;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 14,456;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 3%;

Criminal offense: Robbery;
Total offenses: Number: 15,305;
Total offenses: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 4,177;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 11,128;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 3%;

Criminal offense: Stolen property;
Total offenses: Number: 13,415;
Total offenses: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 4,201;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 9,214;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 2%;

Criminal offense: Sex offense;
Total offenses: Number: 11,833;
Total offenses: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 2,501;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 1%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 9,332;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 2%;

Criminal offense: Disorderly conduct;
Total offenses: Number: 8,768;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 2,986;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 5,782;

Criminal offense: Property damage;
Total offenses: Number: 6,478;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 2,238;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 4,240;

Criminal offense: Homicide;
Total offenses: Number: 5,992;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 1,156;
_________________

HEALTH CARE:
There were 4,000 births last year at the Laredo, TX Medical Center maternity ward. 3997 healthy, screaming new American citizens, of whom, half were born to illegal aliens. Mexican madres giving birth in U.S. maternity wards in order to obtain better care and blue PassPorts for their offspring, is as old as the border itself.
________________________________

… more …

Posted by: d.a.n at March 24, 2006 06:15 PM

Concentration camps perhaps?

Posted by: Zeek at March 24, 2006 07:09 PM

We are being overrun.

Posted by: Donnell H. Harvey at March 24, 2006 07:16 PM

kctim….. I’m only irrational when I don’t believe in something…..or don’t agree with you….. ;)

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 24, 2006 07:50 PM

Funny Zeek.

They are already filling up our prisons.
We can deport them, but the return.
Just like Jorge Hernandez, a.k.a. Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk. He had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and he had been deported to Mexico 17 times!

First of all, let me say that I do not hate any one from any nation. This is not an issue of race, nationality, etc. I simply do not like illegal aliens (no matter where they come from) burdening our healthcare, education, welfare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems. Please do not make a race, class, nationality, etc. issue out of this.

Donnell H. Harvey,
Yep, We are being overrun, and we are too lazy to do anything about this problem, like so many other pressing problems, then Americans deserve the consequences of their own laziness and negligence.

I don’t think enough Americans understand the problem. There’s about 1 million illegal aliens in North Texas alone (where I live).

We have sold out ourselves, and we are are being crushed by the weight of our own laziness and stupidity. Perhaps we sold ourselves out long ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of assets?

No reforms (including immigration reform) are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:

Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents,  always,  every election,  until no more irresponsible incumbents exist,  and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades. 

Posted by: d.a.n at March 24, 2006 07:51 PM

This is a tricky issue, let me respond to it this way:

As a born resident of America, it is easy to see myself as somehow different from the guys sneaking accross our borders at night, hidding in the backs of trucks, avoiding police, etc. The problem is that in reality, I am no different from them. My great Grandfather came over durring the great depression, while Eastern Europe was facing economic hardship beyond anything even America was seeing. He came over, they gave him a chance, and he prospered. Of course, that is only one of many relatives from different places, but rest assured, besides the part of me which is Cherokee, my entire family came from other places. They came here and were welcomed, and that really is what America represents to me. Because how is someone born in Mexico, say 20 miles from the border, really any different from someone born one footstep over that border.

In my opinion, anyone who wishes to be a citizen of the United States should be welcomed. Other countries, like France and Germany, they make ethnicity a factor in citizenship, but even if they have the right to, America certainly does not. Because none of us have any ancestral claims, any true ownership, with the possible exception of those oh so ignored Indians sitting on reservations in destitute poverty (demographically native americans are the poorest and least educated ethnic group).

So what we need, I would say, is to streamline the naturalization process. We need to make it so people can come here legally, so that businesses cant exploit them with illegal wages and dangerous labor.

America is a country who’s existence is due to a bunch of plucky immigrants who refused to die. Prisoners sent over to build the Frency city of New Orleans, Protestants and people looking to escape something. If we shut the fighters out, then we’ll become weaker because of it.

Posted by: iandanger at March 24, 2006 08:26 PM

I also believe that if you wish to stop illegal immigration you must first remove the demand. I know that congress would never go against the $-men this way, but…. 1) $100,000 fine for every undocumented worker employed, 1st offense. 2) No cap on fines. 3) NO EXECEPTIONS .

Posted by: Ted at March 24, 2006 09:17 PM

VEM,
I have to say this.
I don’t think Republicans are really serious about immigration reform.
It’s all an act.
Nothing will come of it.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 24, 2006 10:27 PM

in southern california today 5 high schools had to lock up and shut down because of hispanic student rioting , what type of flags were they waving? flags of mexico! it is not right for the other students who want to go to school and learn . you got a gripe dont use a high school that really shows who the bullies are. these schools are locked down. whats kind of sick ideology is that we dont get what we want now were going to close you down. remember the other students people!

Posted by: JAY at March 24, 2006 11:49 PM

zeek his qoute ( concentration camps perhaps?) what a bizarre answer! it is not even funny. it has nothing to do with this post. what a foul offensive post.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 12:20 AM

V. Edward
See we can agree on something. Illegal immigration is a problem. And illegal immigrants are felons.
But it’s not going to stop until it become to unprofitable for those that hire illegals to do so. And that won’t happen until Congress decides to make unprofitable. And that ain’t going to happen with our bought and paid off Senators and Representatives.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 25, 2006 12:34 AM

JAY, your comments appear to be a blatant lie. AND I am calling you on it. There were no riots. The students walked out in protest and there was no violence, no destruction and they complied with police requests.

Your comments, according to news reports on the subject, are a lie, and I suspect reveal a bigotry that needs a spotlight shown upon it.

If I am wrong, please provide the evidence. Absent such evidence, consider the spotlight on.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 04:38 AM

JAY, Chicanos and Chicanas have much better schools today in LA due to walkouts just like these back in the 1970’s. To depict their walkouts as anything other than a lawful and legal protest and exercise of 1st amendment rights reveals your agenda, not theirs, in my opinion.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 04:41 AM

I have been thinking about this issue and in keeping with the American Spirit, I wonder if a Bill in Congress that did allow every Corporation in America formule request from “We the People” the number of Guest Workers that they need and for how long. Than depending on the number and length of time employeed at the Higher Standard Living Wage the Government would sale them permits at around $5,000.00 each coupled with a fine of $250,000.00 or up to 99% Profit of said Corporation for one year if found in Non-Compliance with program.

Additionally, I would recommend that the Guest Worker Program Certificates be actioned off to All Citizens of Humanity’s Nations not just Mexico. By even getting a $1.00 for each guest worker in revenue would help offset the cost of the program. Thus with a break-even management system that govern the GWPC’s “We the People” won’t have higher taxes.

I’m not sure people would like it; however, it does allow them to have Guest Workers and America choice between the Best the World has to offer.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 25, 2006 07:58 AM

V. Edward,

they are already felons the moment they step foot in this country

and Ron Brown,

illegal immigrants are felons.

Correction. You are not a felon until you are TRIED AND CONVICTED of a felony. Our ccriminal justice system is already overloaded. How much more work do you want to add?

Making illegal immigration a felony won’t do anything more to stop it than is already being done. If you want to stop illegal immigrations there are only two ways to do it:

1. Build an inpenetratable wall around this country and beef up the customs and border patrol so that nobody gets in without documentation. Beef up inspections at our sea and airports so that all people coming in are thoroughly screened. Go after all the illegals that are already here and deport them. The cost of a program like this, in my opinion anyway, would be prohibitively expensive both in term of dollars and in political terms - “Fortress America” would contradict our claim to be the home of the free and the land of the brave, now wouldn’t it? Thjis approach is doomed to failure.

2. Illegal immigrants come here because they can always find work. So, if the opportunity for work wasn’t present, the flow would drop to a more acceptable level. Illegal immigrants find work in this country because some employers find it cheaper to use them. So let’s make that unpalatable for the employers. I like Ted’s proposal. Fine the employer a fixed amount per illegal employee - say $10,000 per worker for a first offence and a misdameanor conviction. Second offense: $100,000 per illegal employee, loss of your business license, and a felony conviction. Third offence: $1,000,000 per illegal immigrant and a mandatory prison sentence of ten years. And so on. I think this would dry up the market for cheap illegal labor. And with the market dried up, the flow would stop.

Posted by: ElliottBay at March 25, 2006 07:59 AM

iandanger

Anyone who wishes to become a U.S. citizen can become one just as long as they obey the law. Entering the country illegally doesn’t count!

ElliotBay

We agree on almost everything…regardless of what you call illegal immigrants if they care caught deport them; no trial necessary…

V.Edward

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 25, 2006 08:32 AM

Ouch… as a liberal I have to agree. See, sometimes you just can’t peg us as one particular thing or another… But, allow me to give my liberal spin. Sometimes I think that I am a liberal because I just love to take things and see all sides… once I do, I realize that it isn’t always as simple as we would like.

Some solutions just don’t make sense though. Yes, believe me when I say this… I am speaking from experience… I was between jobs (company moved production to China) and I went to a local clinic to try to get medical help.

Because I am a disabled vet I couldn’t get health treatment… the VA hospital is 90 miles away, non-disability related visits are on a first come, first serve basis and the last time I went there they would not help me because the issue wasn’t “service connected.”

So, I was unable to use the state or county facilities because I was a disabled vet and had to use the VA… and the VA wouldn’t help me because it wasn’t their problem.

The problem? Yes, illegal immigrants were going in and seeing the doctor in droves while I sat there being told that I was outta luck. Was I resentful? Sure.

Some of the issues though are tougher than just ship ‘em back or fining the employers. Yes, when living in So. Ca I used the workers standing on the side of the road to help me move one time… I paid them $5 apiece because I needed help moving. I was hypocritical and admit it… a lot of people too use the service directly or indirectly and don’t admit it.

While placing a heavy fine on the employers seems to be a solution, most are not equiped or qualified to determine the legitimacy of documentation… so they take a chance or just refuse to hire anyone “looking” hispanic.

Ron Brown, I hope you read this… you are a small business man (not implying physical stature) and maybe you can shed some light on what it means to protect yourself from hiring anyone that is illegal… and how you would determine, as a small businessman, the legitimacy of a person’s papers?

The problem here? Once a person legally attains either resident alien or citizenship he/she should not fear being discriminated against because of name, skin color, ethnicity, origin, religion, sex or any other reason for the convenience of a company or society. That is the price we pay for living in a free society where sometimes rights and freedoms are inconvenient and costly.

Solutions such as the Proposition in CA that required school teachers to report “suspected” illegal residents to the authorities also is not a good thing. Viscerally it seems like a good idea… however, it is not the job of the teacher to enforce the immigration law. They are not trained law enforcement officers… they are teachers dedicated to teaching each student in their classroom. Imagine the impact on a teacher’s ability to do their job if they reported wrongly?

The education level of the immigrant is mentioned. We do not know the future status of the ones that are in America today. Who knows if there is going to be an “amnesty” some time down the line. It has happened. Do we want uneducated illegal immigrants to now be uneducated citizens?

I am not sure… but I believe that education is the biggest predictor of drug use and criminal behavior…

Same with health care. In such a society that we have today, the bird flu being the big example of how easily disease can possibly spread… do we want people, regardless of their method of arrival, running around sick? We will have to pay the cost… preventative medicine is always cheaper than treating the advanced stages of an illness.

These are just a few of the thoughts this “liberal” has when it comes to the issues of immigration. Like I said, I want to see something done, but I don’t want it to be another “war” on something. I am tired of the wars. There have been too many social programs that are called wars and it is really making people lose sight of the significance of that word.

War on Poverty
War on Crime
War on Drugs
War on Inflation
War on …

Lastly, I do believe that Jesus was a criminal. Wasn’t he brought to Pilot for treason against Rome?

I am not aware of Jesus having a nationialistic message. Many great social changers were seen as criminal in their times… Jesus, Mandella, MLK Jr., Ghandi…

Why am I bringing up this particular point? Because, people have a tendency to attack Senator Clinton no matter what she says.. and then later the Republicans say the same thing as if they invented it. Remeber her book, It Takes a Village? Oh how many times that title was said with a curled lip and rolled eyes.

Look to NCLB and you will see through out it the need to be inclusive of the communities resources to help schools.

Look to the office of Faith Based Initiaves which was created to use the resources of the community to help with problems of society.

Same thing, different name…. Now a basis of Conservative/Republican policy and the shining example of conservative compassion.

My hope… maybe you don’t like the messanger… but listen to the message. This would help from distorting the words and message of Jesus to gain political points.

If the similarities between Senator Clintons interpretation of the message of Jesus wasn’t close enough… what about the relative severity of the crimes that were charged? Illegal immgrants are felons because they violted our immigration laws… Jesus was a charge with treason against the state…

We can say that the message and mission of Jesus transends the state… which would kind of be supportive of Senator Clinton’s message that the message of Jesus might be of more importance than rashly attacking the immigrants because of their violation of the laws of the state.

His message was so simple… so elequant… “Love they neighbor.” I am not sure, but that was in an inclusive way… one not limited by time or geography.

Bottom line? Let’s deal with illegal immigration rationally, compassionately and in a manner in keeping with all that America stands for… not emotionally creating the sense that these people (citing the examples of the bad does not mean it is reflective of the whole) are our next terrorists… that we need to go to “war” on immigration because of a clear and present danger concerning national security.

Unfortunately, since the need for oil has become our heroin, we equate economic advantages and conveniences with national security. It used to mean enemies with real weapons and designs on doing harm to our country.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 08:46 AM

Darren7160, doing harm to our country equals doing harm to our people. And the 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants are doing harm to our people. Aside from the criminal element, they are taking jobs away from citizens, and artificially holding back free market forces that would dictate an increase in the minimum wage (something a majority of states are undertaking on their own btw, despite the US gov’t.s foot dragging.)

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 10:00 AM

How would mexico treat an american who had counterfiet papers and crossed the border into mexico?
Maybe we could use that as an example of how we should treat people who come here illegally!

Posted by: Weary Willie at March 25, 2006 10:00 AM

David,
Did I deny the costs? I don’t think so. So, other than saying that I am not reaching the level of impassioned moral outrage you feel I should, do you have a point?

I know all the arguments… I can find find them throughout our history of immigration, from the Irish, to the Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Germans… It could be a template for a word processor and we just change the nationality, numbers and dates. We survived.

Doing harm. I will have to remember that as an effective way to change between “Clear and Present Danger”, “Vital to Our National Security” and now “Doing Harm to Our Country”

You do not deny my message… just the diffence of how loudly we each are crying the sky is falling.

Chances are most people reading this blog wouldn’t be here if the “immigration reform” people throughout history had it there way. Do a 30 minute Google if you know when your ancestors came over… check it out. It isn’t hard to do and it will be really enlightening. Do not assume that just because your ancestors were from Germany or Ireland or Italy or Sweden or any other nation that they were not subject to the same names, accusations and numbers.

Please, please, please, gain a bit of perspective instead of thinking of ways to attack me because I am citing the historical truth. Truth should not be attacked just because you don’t like my message. Would that be “political correctness”?

Even the arguement that they are not refugees from tyranny but here for economic reasons! Out history is replete with economic immigration. It is a continual issue. Just historical fact. So, excuse me if I do not pull my hair and gnash my teeth.

I am not denying the problem nor the need to address the problem. I just refuse to get morally outraged and march down the street. If my concern does not reach the level of sufficiency some may believe it should, then it may be because I have other issues more pressing or see things slightly differently. Possibly my considerations of the issues on a scale do not tip as far to one side as the other…

I do not do a Pavlovian salavation to issues but look at them. Right now I am going to have to check out the “felony” part because I am reading that there is a law in congress being addressed to make it a felony to be an illegal alien… But, say it is a felony, there are many different levels of felonies… some are so bad that they justify the use of force, some don’t.

If we want to talk about strict adherence to the law regardless of circumstance or the impact on society or the minority… then we need to accept that in Afganistan a man is on trial for his life for converting from Islam.

Okay, go and say apples and oranges. But, the ability to see apples versus oranges requires admitting the importance of the circumstances of the felony or crime, its severity and its impact. The rationale behind it.

People opposing “secular humnism” believe that God is the ultimate authority and the one we must ultimately answer to… not the civil authorities. Thus, if the religion states that they must kill someone because he renounced Islam, then aren’t they doing what the people against “secular humanism” are advocating? Obeying God’s law, not man’s?

Tell me I am wrong. I guess I should qualify that … use some other argument than their’s is the wrong religion and our’s is the right one. ‘Cause honestly, faith is based upon that which cannot be proven… so unless we die, the belief in our rightness is based on our faith.

Weary Willie,
I have no idea how they would. Do you? Please cite sources so we can discuss based upon knowledge, not “Well, I bet they would…”

As to my points… Those were not addressed, which leads me to believe that they were either correct, or the people resonding did not read what I had to say but responded based upon what they thought I was saying.

Again, if I do not foam at the mouth it does not mean I am not concerned… just choose to use my brain, my heart, my understanding of Christ’s message as originally intended… not some way that others seem to want to distort it. Because, like I said and have not yet received a denial to, Jesus was accused of treason against Rome… which would be the same crime today, the same punishment then as today… and his crime was to deal with the people as they were… Children of God. Therefore, in the vital interests of the state, Pilot should have executed Jesus. Period! a+b=c

Why the religon in all this? Well, Senator Clinton mentioned Christ and in the interest of once again “sticking it to Hillary” an attempt was made to distort the simple message of Christ… all in the name of never passing up a chance to attack “Hillary.”

I forgot, like children, we like to beleive that we are the favorite… but I personalize the message, and as a father, I love all my children.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 11:00 AM

Weary Willie,

That would be dangerous indeed.
First of all, a common practice is to hold the person for ransom, and try to bilk relatives for as much as possible. Then, you might not be so lucky. The bottom line is that committing a crime in Mexico can have very serious consequences, no matter how minor.

(81 year old handcuffed to bed, trying to get cheap prescriptions in Mexico)

(only in possession of amunition)

But, being anywhere close to the border can be dangerous. Twenty-seven (27) Americans have been abducted in Mexico’s northern border region over in only the last six months, and two have been killed.

Mexican Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez had said the U.S. State Department public announcement, issued Wednesday, exaggerated the danger. Amazing eh?

The U.S. consul to Reynosa, on the Mexican border across from McAllen, Texas, issued a separate alert in September 2005, for U.S. travelers planning to visit that city. The advisory came after officials received reports that Mexican police allegedly were forcing U.S. drivers to remote places or to automated cash machines, where they were told to hand over money or face jail time.

Darren7160,

I appreciate your desire to be benevolent to illegal aliens. However, please see the research. The crime alone (for which there is overwhelming evidence; see GOA report above), is enough reason to put an end to illegal immigration.

Legal, regulated immigration is OK. Even good.
Uncontrolled, massive immigration is not OK. It is also illegal, and creates chaos and societal disorder. Despite the claims of economic benefits of illegal aliens, it is false. Many credible sources have overwhelmingly proved otherwise.

I do not hate any one from any nation. I simply do not like, nor feel illegal aliens (no matter where they come from) have a right to burden our healthcare, education, welfare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems. This is not an issue of race, class, nationality, etc.

The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

THE SOLUTION:
[X] Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)
[X] Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
[X] Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
[X] Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
[X] Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 11:16 AM

I agree with Darren - the problem is more complicated than it appears. There were already penalties for hiring illegal aliens, no? What has that done to correct the problem so far?

As far as giving away American jobs goes, how is hiring an illegal immigrant different from outsourcing jobs to another country? One is legal, one is not, ok but… think about it, who will this new law apply to? Small business owners … Not large corporations, who simply outsource whole divisions of their companies, legally.

So, rich people have the right to hire cheap labor, but poor people do not. Great. Another shining example of how the rich get richer. I’m just saying this quick fix-it is a pile of hoodoo.

Squeaky

Posted by: Squeaky at March 25, 2006 11:28 AM

This is a tough one, and I’ve already weighed in earlier with my thoughts and opinions. That, in fact, is exactly what it is…..my opinion, but one that is greatly influenced by many years of up close and personal experiences. Willie actually touched on something that had a ring of credibility to it……how many other countries would be as tolerant and for as long as we have? How many countries would allow “us” to invade their lands, demanding we be fed, clothed, cared for medically, educated, and etc, all the time it being done in our home language!!! English is probably a second language at least in most other countries…..but I’m thinking it would be a real eye-opener to us if we tried to demand they change for our benefit.
Guess this all boils down to the fact that it’s something you would have to live with, experience for yourselves to understand the awareness and concern we SHOULD adopt.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 25, 2006 11:28 AM

Darren
The law requires us to get some kind of picture government issued picture ID and a Social Security card from all new hires. this is supposed to be proof that the person is legal to work in this country. Most the time these are legitimate documents and there’s no problem.
The way things stand now if you have these document on file and the person isn’t legal your not in any trouble.
It’s getting harder to tell forgeries from the real thing. As technology progresses it’s getting easier for the foragers to make the forgeries look real.
But most illegals will get SS numbers and get legal state Id’s. Most the time the SS number is either nonexistent or has been lifted from a dead person.
The Social Security Administration has a website you can go to and see if the number belongs to someone that’s dead. I don’t remember the web address but my personnel manager has it.
The problem with that is, I was hiring a man that I’ve known sense 6th grade to manage the shipping department for me. When the personnel manager ran his SS number it came back that he was dead. Took a while to straighten that one out.
I hired a couple of Mexican guys one time. They had both had SS cards and a Georgia drivers license. After a couple of years the SS office told me that I had a couple of dead folks working for me. I’m actually surprised that they caught it.
I’ve sense started using their website.
Sorry buddy, you lost me on the last part of you post. I fail to see any similarity between Jesus and some as godless as Hilliary Clinton.
But Jesus was charged with treason against Rome. Although he never spoke or did anything against Rome. In fact he told his followers to obey and respesct the authority of Rome.
If he’d been given a fair trial he would have been released. But that didn’t happen because the ‘religious leaders’ wanted him dead.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 25, 2006 11:39 AM

d.a.n
“Please do not make a race, class, nationality, etc. issue out of this.”

I did not. My suggestion was geared towards illegal immigrants, and as you said, it has nothing to do with their race it is a matter of their burdening our government.

JAY,

“zeek his qoute ( concentration camps perhaps?) what a bizarre answer! it is not even funny. it has nothing to do with this post.”

It has everything to do with this post. This is about illegal immigrants, and I mentioned a way that would make illegal immigration highly undesirable. If it seems foul and offensive perhaps that is because you construed it in the wrong way. That, or you find some moral problem with forcing illegal immigrants to do labor. I personally do not.

Posted by: Zeek at March 25, 2006 11:45 AM

Zeek,
I wasn’t pointing the statement directly at you. It was a general request to all. Sorry if it seemed that way.

BTW, I’m not terribly interested in deporting illegal aliens already here (unless they commit other crimes). But, I’d like to see the borders secured, and an end to the abuse of our systems. Also, I’m not sure many Americans really understand the magnitude of the problem, unless they have spent some time in the border states, or a few large cities where they gravitate to.

But, if Americans are simply too lazy to do anything about this problem, like so many other pressing problems, then Americans deserve the consequences of their own laziness and negligence. We sold out ourselves, and we are are being crushed by the weight of our own laziness and negligence. Perhaps we sold ourselves out long ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of assets?
No reforms, including illegal immigration reform, are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:

Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Or, learn the hard way. History has already shown us the result of unregulated, massive immigration. The end result is what we are seeing. Crime, chaos, and societal disorder.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 11:56 AM

The borders can be secured.
It is not as difficult as some want you to think it is.

There are several easy ways to do it also.
Here’s a pretty good idea.
This would reduce the number of personnel required.

Another approach is to secure the borders with resources we already have. We could simply position a mere 1% of the total 2.6 million active military, guard, and reserves along the borders where they could be more effective toward the goal of national security and defense. The U.S./Canada border (about 4000 miles) and the U.S./Mexico border (about 2,000 miles) could both (about 6,000 miles) be secured with 1,200 posts (spaced about 5 miles apart; denser in some areas than others) with 20 soldiers per post, which would only require 26,000 soldiers (about 1 every 1218 feet).

See, it’s not that hard. Not really.

And if illegal aliens don’t think it would work anyway, or make any difference, then why be upset?

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 12:04 PM

You would not go to bed at night and leave your doors and windows unlocked.

You would not allow strangers to come into your home uninvited.

So why would you allow uninvited illegal aliens come use your hospitals, schools, welfare, and burden your education, healthcare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems ?

And, should illegal aliens be able to vote in our elections? Because, they are.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 12:23 PM

d.a.n.,
Again, you are not saying anything new. Denying citizenship to a person born in America, regardless of ANYTHING else would probably require a Constitutional amendment. Please don’t forget to include citizenship for those born outside of the US while their parents were in a foreign country due to military service. I would hate to see my son lose his citizenship in a mad haste to close the door.

Everyone says it is the “illegal” that is what they are against… has anyone looked at the level of legal immigration? Even when there are some that come here on work visas there seems to be a feeling that those are too many… in other words, intellectually we believe that legal immigration is okay… when in actuality, even the number of legal immigrants causes a bit of a stir.

Go figure… but, it isn’t because of race or anything. Just all those slightly darker people with funny accents working as computer programmers and doctors they are just fine. Right? No one here has ever said anything about them… they are legal immigrants. Or the typical person owning a convenience store as portrayed on tv and movies… they are legal. But, do people resent them for owning the stores?

I got an idea… this is a bipartisan issue… why not hammer the companies that ship out our jobs, bring in the legal workers who are taking jobs from Americans who want to do it… and leave the produce picking people alone? Ooops. Sorry, got emotional there. It isn’t racial or political… just plain old common sense. Forgot.

The numbers of legal immigrants? Are they sufficient to provide the low level job picking produce that some claim Americans are more than willing to do? I personally, based on my experience, do not see Americans picking the produce at the wages being paid… oooops… there goes your grocery bill. See, like a tangle of string, you pull one end and all types of things happen. I just like to pull the string and see what happens.

Aren’t the immigration quotas based upon nationality? An attempt to maintain the racial and ethnic make up of America instead of allowing nations that aren’t allowing their citizens to beome affluent being the consideration? So we need as many immigrants from affluent countries?

My goodness… I try to take down the rhetoric just a notch or two… just try to bring a reasoned perspective in which to make the issue one that can be dealt with rationally and I guess that I am just “benevolent.” It may not have been your intention so excuse me if I am projecting here… but it seems as if there was an allusion to that being a bad thing. Exactly when did that become a bad thing?

Should I stand on the street corner wearing a sandwhich board declaring open war on illegal aliens? Grab people by the jacket collar and shakes them?

Emotionaly reacting, claiming no one understands the seriousness as much as I do, there needs to be a war declared on this issue because of its costing us money, compromising our security or not in the vital intersts of our country’s welfare… well, it just isn’t my style.

Emotional manipulation and fantasisim scare me. I don’t care what the cause is. Each is used to make someone the “enemy” and you are either for us or against us. Once they have become depersonalized then they can be dealt with guilt free. For some, maybe even the concentration camps because… How quickly we condem others and rationalize our own behavior. They were bad, we are different. Theirs was wrong because… but our’s is right.

I lived in So. CA for 10 years and am aware of the issues….

I believe you when you say that it isn’t racial or ethnic. That, however, has not been the case historically… and some did try to say that it wasn’t racial… or if it was, they were just trying to limit immigration to maintain the ratio of peoples alread in the country.

Sir, when I get my teaching license I will teach any child in my classroon. I will not check identity papers, nor will I report any illegal felon children to the authorities. If that is not okay with the authorities or administration I will gladly go somewhere else. Anyone that expects a teacher to be a law enforcement officer is wrong… or, do they as law abiding citizens call the INS each and every time they see or know of an illegal immigrant?

Some of those charities that are harboring illegals are churches… answering their belief of what God wants them to do.

See, this is the fun part of being philosphical or applying the philosophy of others when looking at an arguement.

Does securing our national borders supercede a person’s belief in his interpretation of what God wants? If so, are there other instances where a nationa may disregard God’s will or morality? … like abortion, stem-cell research, homosexuality? We always cite the old testament concerning the prohibitions against behaviors like abortion or birth control… ones that declare death to the violators… yet, in Afganistan they have behavior that is punishable by death in their religion and we pretend that it is sooooo barbaric!

Then to what level do we accept God’s will, a person’s interpretation of God’s will and the rights of a nation if they are in violation of what we believe God’s will to be?

Possibly I just like playing the advocate here… but people make so many claims and when the inconsistencies are brought out I am attacked, not the inconsistencies…. such as the one concerning Afganistan.

We can say that here they have a right to do what they want within their borders… their national soverignty….we can say that they are obeying their religous tenets…. yet Christians who say they believe they want a God based America are up in arms because it is a person of their religion that is about to face death unless something can be worked out.

Ron,
Thanks for your input. I just am fearful that in the haste to do something about this incredibly dangerous situation people will go overboard based on fear or misunderstanding…

I am confused though. You said you had illegals working for you for a couple of years? Why weren’t they in jail, drugged out or robbing someone? And, you let them drive trucks? It seems to be the general idea here that this would be the case.

Statistics are so much fun. The numbers cited here showing the relation between immigrants and drug use and crime… I wonder how much difference those ratios are from mainstream Americans?

How would you like to fight the immigration people and the proposed fines and all if they believed that you didn’t use due dilgence. Talk about the government getting their teeth into yah!

As things are, you might be okay… who knows what new legislation will bring if based on pandering to fear and political expediencey to be seen to be doing something? Read some of the proposals here and think about you facing the angry mod of indignant American’s wanting your pound of flesh.

When it comes to the God thing… the original post attacked Senator Clinton’s interpretation of Christ’s message…

“Note to Hillary Clinton: if Jesus were breaking the law, he too would have to be held accountable. And equating what Jesus did in helping the truly down trodden with the current situation is severely disingenuous and beneath the office you currently hold: stop pandering!”

So, I was pointing out that Christ was breaking a law… he was breaking a religous law and possibly a civil law. Again, it seems people are willing to shade Christ’s message or deny it because of who it is delievered by… in this case, Senator Clinton.

Speaking of below the office? Have you ever noticed Ron how I always use the person’s title… President Clinton, President Bush, Senator Clinton, Congresswoman Schmidt, Congressman Murtha? Why? People wanted to claim that it was President Clinton ruining the Presidental office’s reputation… well, actually, some might think that the Republican attacks on the President well before Monica did that already… I will continue to use their job title as a respect for the position… but I am always amazed by both sides that take it to the lower level and use things like “Hillary” when discussing a United States senator. But, heck, I am a liberal and I am not supposed to care about that stuff.

So many on the right want to declare that we must be a nation of God… that we must have our laws based upon a Truth higher than man’s. So, if God’s law, or Christ’s messages interferes with our secular comfort, security, crime, expenses, science or what have you… to which do we serve?

When it comes to a trial of Christ… possibly. However, that would depend on Rome’s interpretation of treason. I do know that formenting unrest in those times was seen as treasonous to Rome. Since Isreal was a province under Rome and Rome didn’t care about the religions of Roman provinces, only that they behaved and paid their tribute… a smart prosecutor could say that by formenting dissention among the religous leaders of the province, it was in fact, treason to the state of Rome.

I am not an expert on ancient Roman law, but I do not believe they had the nuances that we have today… just Pilot really not wanting to get into this mess.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 12:41 PM

Normally I tend to fall on the liberal and compassionate side of the issue but this one I have to admit to agreeing with the right. I have NO problem with those who come into our country through proper channels. Many do. And live by our rules and customs.
I do, however, resent those who sneak over our borders and take advantage of our health care and education services all the while expecting the US citizens to bend over backwards to condone their non-assimilation into our culture. And when we get tired and fed up….they DARE to say we are racist!? EXCUSE ME…..when you are legal alien or an AMERICAN citizen, then you have the RIGHT to have the American dream. Otherwise, go BACK to your own country and come across legitimately. THEN we can talk. If, then, you want to call me racist, we can discuss it like equals. Until then, you are still a felon and a criminal!

Posted by: qatmando at March 25, 2006 12:50 PM

d.a.n.
I always say that ignorance of math and science is not America’s problem…

As far as using our military… Two words: Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus Act
Source: G-OPL (United States Coast Guard)

“POSSE COMITATUS ACT” (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to “execute the laws” except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec ‘81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies—including the Coast Guard—especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm

I picked ones that is particularly interested in supporting a proactive interpretation of the law to meet your needs… I just wanted to show it isn’t all so cut and dried.

My stated belief had no relevance to people wanting to tell me how wrong I was… but their spefifics were lacking in content.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 12:51 PM

If any of you think this is not a major issue…..tune into your cable station (MSNBC just showed it) and see the demonstration taking place in Los Angeles right now. Tens of thousands……in response to the proposals being presented to strengthen and enforce immigration laws…

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 25, 2006 01:13 PM

be a feeling that those are too many… in other words, intellectually we believe that legal immigration is okay… when in actuality, even the number of legal immigrants causes a bit of a stir.

Illegal aliens far outnumber legal aliens.

Darren,
My wife was born on a military base in Japan, but she is an American. I didn’t mean through out all common sense.

Posse Comitatus

Then, expand the Border Patrol. That has already been suggested.

I always say that ignorance of math and science is not America’s problem…

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean.

My stated belief had no relevance to people wanting to tell me how wrong I was… but their spefifics were lacking in content.

I never said you were wrong. And you (above) already acknowledged all along that illegal immigration was a problem.

My goodness… I try to take down the rhetoric just a notch or two… just try to bring a reasoned perspective in which to make the issue one that can be dealt with rationally and I guess that I am just “benevolent.” It may not have been your intention so excuse me if I am projecting here… but it seems as if there was an allusion to that being a bad thing. Exactly when did that become a bad thing?

Thank you for trying to reduce the rhetoric. Please accept my apology for referring to you as benevolent. I see your point, but really meant no disrespect. Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 01:17 PM

The issue must not be over-complicated.

Legal, regulated immigration is OK. Even good.

Uncontrolled, massive immigration is not OK.
It creates chaos and societal disorder.

This is not the only country that has had to deal with the problem.

If no nations could regulate immigration, then massive numbers of people would always descend upon places where things are good, until it is all used up, and move on to the next place. It is just simple common sense. Massive illegal immigration creates chaos and societal disorder, to the point that we are all losers.

Now, if the U.S. had no welfare, no Social Security, no Medicaid, no public education, no public hospitals, no health care, no universities, etc. then we would not have this problem, would we? So, perhaps that is the problem? We have all these public benefits that lure people to come here illegally? If all of that was eliminated, would so many illegal aliens then want to come here?

So, those systems are doomed to failure, and we all will end up with nothing. Perhaps that is best. It will probably be the end result. Already, it is not hard to fathom how this problem, along with our many pressing problems, could soon lead to an economic meltdown ?

All, I would not get to worked up about this, because government has not, and will not ever do anything about it. It’s all just a lot of talk. Even if the BILL passes, the government will continue to fail to enforce the laws.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 01:36 PM

david r . you make a commparision to the 1970s for your anoligy today i don’t agree with it they the hispanics were truly a minority then. today in those high schools they consist of 70% of the schools( LA ca ) population. ok there was no bloodshed thank goodness! but it was a disruption david they locked the schools down!and the minority of the students who go there are denied a education and imitated by the majority of the students who are hispanic. david freedom of speech is a right to all americans. so take it to the streets like they did in milwaukie. do you think those minority of students who in the la schools were not afraid did they know that is was going to be peacefull? do they have no rights? on a other post your qoute to darren was ( and the 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants are doing harm to our people) why does that not apply to the minority of students in la county schools who are not hispanic? dont they deserve a education and a safe and secure environment to study in? .

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 01:50 PM

“Anyone who wishes to become a U.S. citizen can become one just as long as they obey the law. Entering the country illegally doesn�t count!”

This is just plain untrue. If these people could come into America legally, we wouldnt have to deal with illegal immigration on the scale we do now. Yes, we would still have drug cartels tunneling into the USA, but the vast vast majority of those comming accross that border are normal people. Building walls won’t help this situation, walls never help, they just get more people killed trying to cross them. If getting into the USA wasn’t so hard, if green cards were easier to get, then it wouldnt be nearly as large an issue.

Oh, and dan, I don’t lock my house or my car when im not home. I don’t fear my fellow man, and I’ve never been stolen from.

Posted by: iandanger at March 25, 2006 02:27 PM

darren isreal was a occupied province of rome and pilot was the roman governor at that time that’s why the sanhedrin took jesus to him. and being like a typical politician he sherked his responsibilitys created a mob. inticed violence by floging and putting a crown of thorns on jesus. then gave lip service and walked away and washed his hands.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 02:49 PM

iandanger

Umm, the last time I looked and checked anyone who goes through the “legal” process can become a U.S. citizen, with few exceptions. Yes it takes time, but it can and has been done millions of times. Those who come here illegally do so because they do not want to become U.S. citizens and just want to work and send their money home. Those who desire to become U.S. citizens go through the proper channels.

And a healthy fear of your fellow man is healthy thing…

All,

The solution to this problem is far from vexing; as many have suggested dry up the supply of jobs and the illegal’s will stop coming in such numbers. And take steps to streamline the process of working legally in this country, make employers prove they need immigrants to work in their place of business, and institute a guest worker program. That and build a fence because we still have the drug dealers and terrorist to deal with!

V. Edward

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 25, 2006 03:14 PM

Oh, and dan, I don’t lock my house or my car when im not home. I don’t fear my fellow man, and I’ve never been stolen from.

iandanger,
Well, good for you.
Do you have children?
Do you live in the country?
I don’t know where you live, but perhaps where you live, it does not matter as much?

I live north of Dallas, Tx., and I guarantee you if you don’t lock your car or home (actually, an alarm system is highly recommended for both), then you will be a victim in no time flat.

The Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex has about 6 million people and there is a lot of crime, murder, theft, burglary, and crimes of all kinds (including the murder of Dallas policeman Brian Jackson on 13-Nov-2005,shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano).

I also have electronic alarm systems (tied into the city police department).
Living where I do and not locking the doors and no having deterrents to intruders would be very foolish indeed. That goes for just about any major city in the U.S. or any other country. I’ve only been to one nation where I felt perfectly safe in most places at most times: Japan (1993)

iandanger,
So, You say you “have no fear of your fellow man”?
Nonsense. Take a walk in Dallas at night, and tell me afterward that you don’t fear your fellow man (if you survive long enough). I almost got mugged in downtown Dallas one night, have had my car was broken into multiple times, and my home has been burglarized (before I got a security alarm system). Nope, you won’t catch me in such places at night (especially alone) ever again. That is not fear. That’s common sense.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 03:24 PM

The solution to this problem is far from vexing; as many have suggested dry up the supply of jobs and the illegal aliens will stop coming in such numbers. And take steps to streamline the process of working legally in this country, make employers prove they need immigrants to work in their place of business, and institute a guest worker program. That and build a fence because we still have the drug dealers and terrorist to deal with!

Thank you. Yes, it is not as complicated as some want to make it. And, securing the borders would not be that difficult either, using resources we already have.

Also, not all illegal aliens come here to contribute to society or find work.
Without border security, there’s nothing to keep the deported from returning, like Jorge Hernandez, a.k.a. Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk, had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and had been deported to Mexico 17 times!

This is all a collosal failure of do-nothing politicians. Polls show that most Americans , by a vast majority, want to stop illegal aliens trespassing our borders, and burdening our education, healthcare, hospital, welfare, Social Security, Medicaid, law enforcement, and prison systems.

I will be very surprised if government actually does anything about this problem. It won’t be the first time they acted like they cared, but still did nothing.

This reform, and all others are impossible until voters start doing what is required. Vote out all irresponsible incumbents, always. That would be most (if not all) incumbents.

Want to help?
Make a list of the most serious issues facing the nation.
E-Mail that list to your elected officials.
Here’s a list to start with.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 03:44 PM

d.a.n.,
Thanks! You know, one of my concerns and the reason I try to think of things in perspective is human nature.

This issue, (fill in the blank) is our most pressing problem today. On a scale of 1 to 10 it is an 11! Once we deal with this issue (fill in the blank) then all of our major problems will be gone.

The problem is fixed and guess what? The second issue which was of an importance level of a 2 or 3 is now at an 11. Just because it is the foremost problem!

That is why I mentioned the War on (fill in the blank). Number 2 issue will always be the next one in the blank.

Just that expression makes me feel an overwhelming tiredness… like being on a treadmill and never going anywhere. Maybe I read to much history… but I swear to God the words written here are the absolute same as those written multiple times over the past 150 years or so. Yes, and each time they really meant that this time it really was beyond crisis. They were so concerned that (fill in the blank) were going to become the majority unless someting was done.

To others,
I see the statistics… I lived in So. CA. Regardless of immigration, legal or otherwise, just differing birth rates, the Latino community will be the majority. And a lot of them will all be native born, 2nd and 3rd generation Americans.

One of the things I always wonder is when there is fear of the minority becoming the majority… is it because the old majority might have been throwing their weight around and are now in fear of that happening to them?

Remember all, if we are in power we should behave the way we would want others to behave if they were in power. This is the case here in the shifting demographics (It really is too late to change the eventual shift) and in politics because no party stays in power forever.

Yes! Let’s deal with the issue. There is no need to beesmirch the whole illegal immigrant population by stating that this many or that many are this or that. It really is irrevelant and does nothing but stir the darker side of people’s fear.

Using the same statistical analysis then all Americans would seem to be drug addicted bank robbers who beat their wives and drive drunk. See, look at these numbers!

But folks, here in Wisconsin, far from the Mexican borders we are already overloaded in our prisons and looking for ways to ship prisoners to other states or build another prison. We are not all felons in Wisc. Contrary to the preceeding sentence.

Jay,
I am reading that the politicans aren’t doing their jobs. Through what it is that they are doing it is inciting our population to reach the level of frustration and anger that I am seeing exhibited here. That if something happens, it won’t be the fault of the population, but a reaction to politicans not doing their job?

An intersting point. Innaction by a politican and then his action causing a mob reaction from the people. Thus, somejow absolving them of accountability and responsibility.

Mob behavior is very interesting. The way that people so easily cast aside their own beliefs, sense of self control and take on the persona of the crowd.

I have always admired, heck America has always admired the individual. The “high noon” sheriff that stands before the mod with his rifle agains the angry lynching mob.

It isn’t as simple as people want to make it sound. Sure, the physical creation of a fence isn’t hard. Ask ancient China, the USSR or Isreal right now. Look at the gated communities where people scamper in fear instead of facing things head on…

It isn’t simple because there are many people involved. From the famers and corporations that use them, to the children who go where their parents go (how can we blame them and deny them vaccinations which protect everyone?).

Maybe the politicans are unable to come up with a working solution is once they have done the pandering to the darker fears of the electorate they are now having to be responsible and they find that it isn’t so easy. It is easy to cast demand the stones be cast… not everyone can cast them.

I know the costs are high financially, but I just can’t help but feel that when the costs are cited I am seeing the measure of a person’s morality… what they value. Possibly it is my lack of valuing money highly that makes me like this… between saving a few dollars or seeing a child gets treatment for pnemuonia or an education since they are here…well, I believe you can guess.

I don’t believe it is moral to harm a child because of the actions of the parents.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 05:14 PM

You state that because undocumented are here illegally they do not pay ioncome tax because they do not file tax forms. Aparently you have never worked for wages. Employers take tax payments out of your wages wether you file or not. Most often fileing is to get a refund back. By not being able to file undocuemented pay more in taxes than legals unless they are working for cash.
Most latino immiagrats are hardworking,decent people who take care of their families. How about we cut a deal with Mexico.For every corrupt CEO or corrupt politician they take from us ,we take a bus load of hard working Mexicans. We would be much better off but I doubt they would go for it.

Posted by: BillS at March 25, 2006 06:59 PM

Both irresponsible incumbents, and slumbering voters let this happen.
Irresponsible politicians always let problems such as this one and many other problems, grow out of control, before dealing with them. You’d think we could all get much better for $2.2 trillion per year ?!?!

Now that politicians and voters ignored the problem so long, the problem is huge, and we will never be able to deport the 28 million illegal aliens here already. But we should secure the borders and put an end to more illegal trespassing. But, it’s unlikely that will ever happen either.

What bothers me most about all of this the do-nothing, irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for politicians that let this happen, and ignored, and ignored, and ignored it, until it (as usual) is going to be painful for everyone. Politicians are 51 % to blame.

And, lazy voters are 49 % to blame. Polls show a majority of Americans want border security, but politicians still ignore them. Voters are only slightly less culpable than bought-and-paid-for politicians (who choose corruption and greed, and ignore the voters) while voters were lazy, not paying close attention, and voting unwisely, and falling prey to the cheaters (politicians) that seduce voters into wallowing in the petty partisan warfare.

Even though voters will be those that suffer most for the irresponsibility of corrupt, bought-and-paid-for politicians, voters continue to slumber, and (amazingly) return every election, to vote re-elect the same incumbents that use and abuse the voters.

Voters have let things get out of control too, and corrupt politicians will never reform themselves.

So, it’s now up to the voters.
Sorry, but all roads lead to this conclusion.

Unfortunately, pain is what drives change.
Pain is a lagging indicator of irresponsible government decisions.

Thus, things can not get better until they get much worse.

But, one day, I hope, before (or without) things getting much worse, voters will get their act together, take off their partisan blinders, stopping being tricked into wallowing in the petty partisan warfare, and start votin’ out (or recalling) all irresponsible incumbents (which is most, if not all incumbents.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 07:28 PM

darren , you can interpret what i said however you like. people should be accountable for there own actions. but leadership should also! my point you cant turn your back on a problem if your in a leadership position. that applies for today and two thousand years ago.we dont need any fences we need good common sense goverment this border issue is just past on and on and on to the next leadership , how is that solving the issue? there’s more to goverment than making points or a poll or a group that they pander to for votes. i am a avid supporter of legal immigration it works. illegal is as it says illegal at least the last time it was defined by law or statute.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 07:37 PM

Bills

Gee, I wonder how many illegal immigrants are paid in cash? It’s a safe bet most are. As a company that knowingly employee illegal immigrants why would I bring attention the practice by paying the workers with a company check? And yes I believe I work for wages now and have since I was 14. So I am well acquainted with income tax withholdings.

I have no doubt that most (illegal) “latino (sic) immiagrats” (sic) are hardworking decent people who take care of their families, but so am I and the vast majority of Americans. The difference is we play by the rule, they don’t. we obey the law (well most of the time) they don’t, we are here legally, they aren’t.

V.Edward

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 25, 2006 07:37 PM

VEM,
Yep. Pro illegal alien proponents like to cloud the issues by saying:
(1) illegal aliens pay taxes; true, but it does not offset the high cost in abused systems and increased crime rates..
(2) what is the cost of the crime?

If you look at the GOA Report above, the study shows (for a study group of 55,000 illegal aliens), they committed an average of 13 crimes per person.

About 80,000 illegal criminal aliens, including convicted murderers, rapists, drug dealers and child molesters who served prison time and were released, are loose on the streets of America, hiding from federal immigration authorities.

Despite the creation of a new agency to hunt down criminal aliens and the infusion of millions of dollars to get the job done, many state and local police agencies who make contact with the aliens either never learn of their immigration status or never advise the federal government of their release.

What irks me is Bush saying illegal aliens are only here to do jobs we won’t do. Never mind the crime wave.

Note: This is not merely anectdotal evidence. 13 arrests per person for a study group of over 55,000 illegal aliens, is not merely anectdotal.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 08:06 PM

Most undocumented folks work under false papers. Employers take out taxes to cover their butts. Same goes for Social Security and other payroll taxes.
The notion that these folks do not add more than they take is just innaccurate.
It is almost a marvel to watch how the neo-cons are once again playing their old standby race card to retain control of congress. God they are good at it. I would not be surprised if they were not encouraging the demonstrations against this bill.Rove is a genious. “But I am not a racist>” Would we be having this conversation if Canadians were taking jobs here? I Doubt it.
As before they have included penalties for employers. We already have those but surprise,surprise,they are almost never enforced and employers are easily shieled by contractor agreements.This will not change. Penalties mean nothing without enforcement.
Illegal? Yes the law is important. How about international law/ The US illegally siezed half of Mexico with no more justification than Iraq siezed Kuwait. That was a long time ago. Tell me,if someone steals your TV how long do they have to have it before it is legally theirs?Silly point? Sure,but remember that the people you are attempting to exclude are the indigenious people of much of what is now the US.This is a special circumstance and should be handled as such. It is not a simple as many assume.
Another aspect of the situations that trumps all others is demographics. Given the population expansion and age in Mexico there is no way to stop the flow of immigration from Mexico short of means that are unlikely in a civilized democracy not at war with Mexico. By that I mean things like kill zones,mine fields,summary executions and the like. Another,humane way, must be found to deal with the influx or we risk our souls.

Posted by: BillS at March 25, 2006 08:40 PM

Jay,
Thank you for the invitation, but unlike some, I don’t want to intentionally misreprestent people’s words. My understanding of what one says and means is not based on how I chose, but rather on what the person says. So, if I am in doubt, I ask. It is a standard communication technique, listen, paraphrase what the person said back to them to see if you understood what he meant.

Granted, it is a bit different than name calling and attempting to earn brownie points with the kids on the playground by out “dissing” the other.

If I was wrong… well, I asked. If you didn’t like what I believed you to say, then please correct me. I don’t wish to make a martyr out of anyone. Thank you though for the permission.

You are right about the illegal. Damn right. The law is the law is the law. That is why I have always advocated the legal kneecapping of jaywalkers. Speeders? Well, you don’t want to know that I think they should get.

Again, some of the ideas expressed here, like concentration camps (whether tongue in cheek or not) bring to light some of the emotional responses. Does that include children of illegal immigrants? We can’t have them picking our produce, but we can have them picking trash up along our highways? Which, by the way I believe deserves even worse penalties than speeding!

Why should we care about the children of other nations? Why should I care about my neighbors 2 year old child if I see he has snuck out and walking towards the street? Do I care about the child next door but not on the next block? Do I stop and check documentation to determine whether or not the child is American and thus worth of saving? Walking into the street or not being immunized… the child is at risk on my street and I will not stand by.

If that gets me arrested or vilified on this weblog or by society… then, as a moral stand based upon my beliefs of what makes me a man… what makes me worthy of being one of God’s children… I will do what I need to do.

I always believed that the conservative right was concerned with life… but only from conception till birth. After that, well life isn’t so sacred anymore. It becomes a matter of dollars and cents… I got in here because of my grandparents (note, luck of birth… not that we are exceptional people brought most of us here.)

I am really getting sick of the demagogry. How many people have any idea what it takes to get here illegally? The hardship, the leaving loved ones, the trip over, the being in a foreign country where you are looked down on as drug addicts, criminals and lazy trash. You don’t get here, for the most part, by being lazy.

I had many friends in Ca who were illegal, and frankly, they were illegal, but I am sick and tired of any other social ill people want to dump on them freely because they are not protected by American law… thus not human.

It makes me sick and belies all the protestations of it not being racial. After all, like the Bell Curve, we have statistical proof! Just read our book, brouchure or listen to this radio personality.

After all, we all know that really deep down, in that place we don’t like to look at… we know that those stereotypes really are based on the truth… we have just been programmed to believe it isn’t. So, we look to other ways and means… statistics lazily interpreted is a wonderful tool.

Dan,
The information is very informative, however, may I ask a few questions concering the study? It would appear to say that of 55,000 randomly selected aliens all committed 13 crimes per person.

I would believe that it was 55,000 aliens who were criminals of the millions of aliens that are supposedly here, and these criminals committed 13 crimes each. There is a difference.

One way implies that all aliens are comitting crimes. Is that true?

How does this comapre to Americans? What were the crimes? As Jay noted… the law is the law. So, were some jaywalking? Driving without a license or insurance? Vagarancy? Armed robbery? Bank robbery?

As I mentioned before, we need to be careful with generalizations, especially ones backed up by numbers because people want to give significant importance to them if they can be given as a percentage… a percentage of what? Of whom?

Like my friend who had a friend robbed by a black person. She now feels that it is okay to be bigoted and not trust blacks. Would she have felt the same was if the robber hand been white? I doubt it…but I could be wrong.

Again, I just do not like distortion of facts being passed off as gospel… numbers, statistics, rationales, prejudices, steroetypes, assumptions should always be questioned.

It would be better if people were a bit more critical of their own thinking… That was my intent with the America not having a math or science problem. We have a problem with critical assesment of information. Gullable and too quick to believe what they hear that supports their own beliefs. It is endemic up to and including this administration that takes only evidence that supports their views and tries to alienate and ostracize people with differing opinions.

I wonder… how many people, in the interest of getting the whole picture looked at alternative, oppositional references when they were lookin up the numbers and ancedotes they wanted to support their position? My guess? None. Why should they? They are looking to support their beliefs, not find the different views of an issue with which to form an opinion. Because it is a matter of right or wrong. Legal or illegal. Yes or no. Black or white.

I try to find a pro and a con… read them and decide for myself. So, if emotional pleas, protestations of my “not understanding” doesn’t sway me that might be paart of the reason why.

Does that make me a part of the “intellectual elite’? God I hope so. I would hate to think that all that tuition, all that effort and all that time working towards educating myself wasn’t wasted.

I bet no one took the time to look up immigration reform movements or attidudes towards their ancestors when they came over, like I suggested.

Again, with all the comments are simply the same rehash…

See, I am a liberal, but I also have a business degree. That is why I supported the NAFTA… because it was supposed to create jobs in Mexico that would eventually create a sort of middle-class who would then want to purchase American products and that would be a win-win for both sides.

This would increase he affluence of the Mexican people and decrease the pressure for ilegally crossing into America.

The problem? Our American companies took away our jobs and sent them to Mexico and pay wages that will never allow the people enough money for discretionary income with which to buy American products. New jobs would be created in America to fullfil the growing desires in Mexico of all those workers with all that extra money.

Please, if we are going to look at this… let’s look at it on a broader basis then the same old rhetoric.

Someone, please, someone give me a new reason to be up in arms and ready to call out the national guard. Give me something unique, never seen before. One that really knocks my socks off. Otherwise, pardon me while I yawn.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 10:14 PM

Darren7160, the rationality of your argument is absent. You are comparing apples to oranges. Immigration from Europe came through ports of entry LEGALLY!!!! Never in our history since the early 1800’s have we had anything remotely close to the ILLEGAL immigration occuring today: estimates range between 12 and 20 million illegals currently.

Legal immigration serves the nation’s purposes. Illegal immigration is robbing our citizens of their rights and resources within our own society. That is the difference. It is irrational to compare Ellis Island of the past to the Mexican border, and growingly, to the Canadian border of today. They are dissimilar in very fundamental and contextual ways.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 10:30 PM

Darren7160, you ask for reason, then ignore the ones given. The effect of illegal immigration upon wages is a huge one. Check out some of the think tanks, conservative or liberal, the data is the same. The below minimum wages for illegal immigrants effectively removes millions of jobs from American citizens, and as I said before, prevents free market forces of supply and demand from functioning by suppressing wage growth which would attract citizens to the jobs now held by illegals.

Let’s see your business degree respond to this issue.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 10:40 PM

V Martin,

You do a lot of notion rejecting, yet provide no facts to back up your argument.

Second, you rail against the alleged drain on our social services, but I’d ask how costly is it to the taxpayer compared to the cost of Bush’s Drug Plan or the Iraq War?

Posted by: Bert M. Caradine at March 25, 2006 11:07 PM

I agree with the “get the dealer” concept. Target the business’s most likely to hire illegals. Raid the premesis. Impose a fine that is huge but survivable, say fifty percent of the companys’ net worth. Deport those illegals the raid catches. On the second offense seize 75% of the companys’ assets. Keep splitting the difference until the company gets the message or goes bankrupt.

Posted by: PE Gwinn at March 25, 2006 11:11 PM

Darren

I am confused though. You said you had illegals working for you for a couple of years? Why weren’t they in jail, drugged out or robbing someone? And, you let them drive trucks? It seems to be the general idea here that this would be the case.

Don’t feel bad most Liberals are confused, that’s why their liberal. Just kidding.
Evidently these two guys didn’t use drugs. They passed the drug screen to get hired and pasted one in a random screen later. If they were robbing anyone I didn’t know about it or they would have been in jail, real fast.
No they didn’t drive for me. They showed a Georgia drivers license as part of the hire on process to prove they were legal to work. I wouldn’t have let them drive at any rate as both were under 21 and my insurance company wouldn’t have covered them.
When I found out they were illegal, I called immigration but by the time they got there both had disappeared.

How would you like to fight the immigration people and the proposed fines and all if they believed that you didn’t use due dilgence. Talk about the government getting their teeth into yah!

I have a friend that’s doing that right now. The INS decided that he has kept the proper documentation on file for his employees. A real headache to say the lest.

As a side note to the story I told about my shipping manager. The person the most surprised that he was supposed to be dead, besides him, was my personnel manager. She’s married to him.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 25, 2006 11:58 PM

darren isreal was a occupied province of rome and pilot was the roman governor at that time that’s why the sanhedrin took jesus to him. and being like a typical politician he sherked his responsibilitys created a mob. inticed violence by floging and putting a crown of thorns on jesus. then gave lip service and walked away and washed his hands.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 02:49 PM

You could put it that way. However the Sanhedrin accused Jesus of treason against Rome. Pilot declare that he was innocent but the religious leaders wanted him crucified anyway, and threatened Pilot. That’s why Pilot finally approved of the crucifiction.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 26, 2006 12:09 AM

darren the jaywalking one was good,! sorry i dont agree with you. but i do agree with d.a.n. and david r remer. for the most part. like i said darren i dont want any fences and armed guard borders. my dads family came from liverpool to ellis island legally it was not all fun and games then. my dads grandfather and his four sons came in 1902 that was the legal way! it was not perfect but it worked.ellis island opened in 1892 and closed in 1954 it had processed over 12.5 million legal immigrants. and before ellis there was castle clinton in battery park from 1855 and 1892 they processed 4 million legal immigrants to amercia and they gave medicine and health checks. another myth buster. they only sent less than 2% back becauce of health and crimminal records they accepted 98% of the people who walked through those legal gates! to americia. it was earned and appreciated and legal.16.5 million legal entrys in 100 years on the east coast.illegal is illegal.again by law and statute.it is not open for interpretation.

Posted by: JAY at March 26, 2006 12:37 AM

Bert, hard cold numbers are nearly impossible to obtain due to the illegal and therefore underground nature of a sizable portion of illegal immigrant activity. We can’t even get a reliable census. However, the best estimate that has been put together comes from Center for Immigration Studies:

Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

So, over 10 years, 100 billion dollars net loss to American taxpayers. And that does not include opportunity costs like unemployment for lower skilled and educated citizens and students.

As FAIR points out about Florida:

The total costs of illegal immigration to the state’s taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, welfare programs used by the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were also calculated.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 26, 2006 12:53 AM

ron think about it for a minute pilot was the law !the roman govenor of occupied isreal there,,s no way the sanhedrin would make threats to pilot. pilot killed over 200,000 jews the short time he was there. he was giving the name of the butcher of judea by the jews. ron his hands were as dirty as everyones elses dont give him any credit. ron he was a very bad person .just like the sanhedrin where then .the romans floged jesus and put the crown on and drove the spikes and raised the cross then jammed the pole in his side like you would a dog to check if he was dead, you should not give the romans a break some other people have in history and it was a holocaust

Posted by: JAY at March 26, 2006 12:59 AM

I think that liberals, centrists, and real conservatives generally agree that illegal immigration is a critical problem that must be solved. I would like to see the following approach:

1. Start from zero, by giving a blanket amnesty to any undocumented immigrant who can pass a screen based on weighted criteria. These would include criminal record, length of residency, dependents, a demonstrated willingness to be self-supporting, ties to organizations that are hostile to democratic values, and others TBD. To ensure fairness, take the decisions away from the INS and guarantee qualified legal counsel for every applicant
2. Deport everyone else who does not pass the screen.
3. Make entering the country for the purpose of criminal activity a felony punishable by a long mandatory minimum prison term.
4. Do the same for human trafficking.
5. Seize the personal assets of business owners who show a pattern of flouting laws against employing undocumented workers. Throw some in jail.
6. Renegotiate NAFTA and CAFTA to bar imports from Mexican or Central American suppliers who do not pay a living wage.
7. Encourage Mexican and Central American industries whose labor standards will make staying in one’s home country a much more attractive proposition. American labor unions could do a lot here by investing in such businesses instead of complaining about low cost foreign labor.
8. Build the fence, but don’t fool ourselves that it will be enough. We will also need to guard the Gulf Coastline and the Pacific Coastline.
9. Turn off the racist and nativist rhetoric and get rid of Tom Tancredo and his ilk.

None of this will work, BTW, if we citizens don’t recognize what we get out of illegal immigration, especially cheap manual labor. Reducing illegal immigration (we will never eliminate it) will drive up the costs of a lot of businesses, everything from carwashes to construction, from lawn care to restaurants with busboys. If we are serious, we will have to pay the price.

Posted by: Robert Benjamin at March 26, 2006 01:15 AM

Robert Benjamin
Thanks…some good ideas.

There is a great movie out called A DAY WITHOUT A MEXICAN. Funny as hell but also gets the point across. The basic premise involves all the Latinos disapearing from California.

Many post have stated that the big problem is that many immigrants are here illegally. Easy fix for that. Amnesty. If that is the big problem. Of course it is not. The problem is racism and exploitation. But for all you closet racist out there,you might as well give up. The culture has been and will continue to be dramatically changed by Latin culture and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Maybe pick up enough spanish to be polite and enjoy the food. What makes it too late to stop is simple. The children of the wealthy and powerful are being raised by Latin women. They are learnig Spanish from the cradle which is by the way ,being rocked by the hand that rules the world.

Posted by: BillS at March 26, 2006 02:46 AM

robert you really believe that. hey some of those car washers make good money they average about two dollars a car tip you do the math you wipe off 8 cars a hour 16 dollars cash plus 8 dollars an hour check that my friend is 24 dollars a hour and 16 of it they dont report! not bad i know people with degrees that dont make that after taxes probly less.btw i try not to support illegal work. i wash my own cars do my own yard work btw i do a much better job and i pull weeds. and the builders shame on them it is all about profit for them bottom line. here in so cal. we had union carpenters hell they were all union up till about 1989 btw houses where affordable then. today cheaper labor but way higher corporate profit margins also look at the builders they have so much waste today there corporate headquarters look like the taj m