Third Party & Independents Archives

Illegal Immigrants Are Already Felons

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but this is one issue in which the Republican’s and I see eye-to-eye. The illegal immigration problem in this country has been out of control for far too long and it about time Congress stepped in and did something—anything—concrete about it.

At the very base level illegal immigrants are breaking the law, so in effect they are already felons the moment they step foot in this country without the proper documentation and with benefit of a proper Customs screening, green card, Visa, passport, etc. etc. The borders of the United States are porous, but especially the Southern border, which leaks like a washer-less faucet. I am all for building a wall to keep those who would willingly break the law from doing so on U.S. soil. Yes, Mexico and Central America are hell hole’s with corrupt governments and stagnating economy’s, but we cannot continue to absorb the downtrodden masses of people that decide its better to flee their countries, then to fight to make them better places to live and raise a family. What would happen for instance of 30,000 or more people routinely took the street of Mexico City and demanded better living conditions?

And I reject the notion that illegal immigrants are essential to the U.S. economy. And I future reject the oft-repeated notion that illegal immigrants perform jobs Americans do not want. In certain sectors like agriculture where there is a long history of immigrant migrant workers performing tasks, this may be so. But this is not the case with services industry, or construction, or warehousing, or the meat-packing industry. There are plenty of Americans who could and would fill those jobs, but those companies find it far more profitable to employee easily exploitable illegal immigrants who have little recourse but to accept the long hours and low wages, and no benefit, presented to them.

And I reject the notion that illegal immigrants give back to the U.S. revenue base in the form of income taxes. If you are working here illegally with false or no documents how are you paying anything other then the occasional sales tax? If you filed a tax return using your fake SSN, you would risk getting caught, would you not? Why would I pay income tax unless I had to; if I am off the government’s income tax radar why light myself up by paying taxes?

And no, illegal immigrants should not be allowed to get drivers licenses, or get free healthcare, or other public services including education. Only those who abide the law and play by the rules should be allowed access to services my tax dollars pay for. After all I have to play by the rules; if I do otherwise I will see jail time in my future. Why should the standard be any different for a non-citizen who is in this country illegally?

Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-New York is quoting as stating, "[T]his bill would literally criminalize the Good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself." Note to Hillary Clinton: if Jesus were breaking the law, he too would have to be held accountable. And equating what Jesus did in helping the truly down trodden with the current situation is severely disingenuous and beneath the office you currently hold: stop pandering!

And I feel no pity for thos--charity or private citizens--hat would help illegal immigrants set up shop in this country; i.e. feed them, cloth them, house them, and find them jobs. Those who engage in such behavior are in fact aiding and abetting a crime(s) by harboring and or assisting illegal immigrants, and there should be consequences for breaking the law. Would we as a society look the other way while charities aided and abetted other know felons?

The evidence is mounting that illegal immigrants are costing far more in dollars then they contribute in the form of taxes across a broad spectrum of American society. From public schools to county hospital, to social services, to housing, to law enforcement, illegal immigrants are an ever increasing drain on the dwindling coffers of American cities.

And let us not forget, if illegal immigrants can gain such easy access to our country so can terrorists!

So I welcome House Resolution 4437 as a no nonsense beginning. It is by no means the only measure we as a nation have to take to finally put and end to the fragrant and continual violations of our immigration, tax, and labor laws. American business needs to be held accountable for hiring illegal immigrants and fined to such a degree that it is cost prohibitive for them to employ illegal immigrants if they are caught doing so. Remove the number one incentive--job--for illegal border crossing and they will stop coming in such large numbers.

I understand the human need to feed, house, and cloth ones family, and I know that America with its high standard of living, easy access to decent paying jobs, and social welfare safety net, is attractive to those south of the Rio Grande. But the influx of illegal immigrants has to stop. Our society does not have unlimited resources and at some point we have to put the welfare of the nation ahead of feel good politics and misplaced moral platitudes. That point is now...

See also these stories related to this issue:


Posted by V. Edward Martin at March 24, 2006 1:56 PM
Comments
Comment #135693

This is kind of a repeat for me, but I can’t agree with you more! Having lived in central California for 40 years, I have first-hand knowledge of the near crisis level this has reached. Yes, there was a time when the “migrant workers” came up and followed the crops, helping to pick, pack, and process the yeilds. At the end of the season, they went back home, with wages that allowed them to live relatively well until the next season. Since they were migrant, they didn’t ( and this part may sound cold and callous ) burden the community they worked in. Actually the farmers and land owners provided them with housing and food was plentiful.
Things have changed significantly over the years though, and the anglo are now minorities per population. You will find the immigrants living in multiple family households, or just the males, with most of them driving relatively new vehicles, without benefit of licensing or insurance. Get in an accident?? Not a big deal…nothing ventured, nothing gained, or lost. Therefore, the insurance premiums are out of sight !
The social assistance programs, welfare, medical coverage, food stamps, are given out in their direction and needy legal residents go without. Insurance companies serving California are now encouraging their members to seek medical and dental care in Mexico !!!!!! What’s wrong with this picture??
Bottom line is that I don’t know if a wall is the best answer….the recently discovered tunnels would validate that. If they can’t walk, crawl, or swim in, they will dig under and in. What others have said before is still worth heeding, and that is to keep the businesses at fault for illegal hiring and held responsible unless they see valid proof of citizenship.
Don’t believe with the current administration in either country, will we see any positive moves in this direction. The U.S. is aiding Mexico’s economy big time and I’m pretty sure that Fox is most appreciative.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 24, 2006 3:49 PM
Comment #135694

Mr. Martin,

You’ve got my full backing with this column

The United States is being morphed into a universal country with a universal culture - a region on the earth’s surfance… serving only as an economic sanctuary.

Posted by: Mike Tate at March 24, 2006 4:10 PM
Comment #135699

V,

Felons? A wall? I’m surprised at you.

I relate this to the drug problem. It’s pointless to blame the addict, you need to reduce the demand and penalize the dealer.
Addict:
Go after the immigrants what do you do? Send them home or send the to jail. If they go home, they come back. If they go to jail we’ll go broke from the prison bills.
Dealer:
So, IMO, when it comes to illegal workers the most effective solution I see is imposition of large fines on the users of the illegal labor.
If there are no jobs, they will not come.
Enablers:
Are you willing to pay more for your grapes and salad?

Posted by: Dave at March 24, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #135702

V. Edward Martin, Ms Davidson and myself in total agreement?
Head for the hills everybody.

GREAT piece Mr. Martin.

Posted by: kctim at March 24, 2006 5:15 PM
Comment #135703

Oregon raised their minimum wage. Oregon’s economy took off after the minimum wage increase. So, much for the conservative’s argument that raising minimum wage will hurt the economy. On balance, it will be a stimulus, something Henry Ford very clearly understood. And now something like 39 states are considering raising the minimum wage for their states.

Raising the minimum wage will attract American workers to the jobs. But, as Mr. Martin points out, our immigration policy subverts and undercuts the supply and demand relationship for jobs and legal American workers.

I agree with Mr. Martin, entirely. Halt illegal immigration will pay far bigger dividends to our nation’s security and to American workers and the economy, more than compensating for the losses to businesses of cheap, illegal labor.

But, you will have to write your Congress Persons to make it happen, because their is a lack of concensus at the moment in Congress. Many Democrats don’t want to alienate the Hispanic voters, and many Repuhblicans don’t want to alienate wealthy contributors who benefit from the illegal labor at below minumum wages. Write them. Enough of them will listen to make this happen.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 24, 2006 5:18 PM
Comment #135714

V. Edward Martin,

You are absolutely correct.
I prefer to call it illegal trespassing.

First of all, this has nothing to do with race, or class, or anything of the sort. So, please, don’t play the race card, and please don’t try to portray them as no harm to our society until you’ve carefully researched it.

Not all illegal aliens come here to work.
A whole lot of them commit serious crimes.
They also burden our school, welfare, health care, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems.

But, this is not merely give you anectdotal evidence. Just the facts.

CRIME:
Here is a GAO Report (9-May-2005) for illegal alien arrest offenses of a study group population of 55,322 illegal aliens.

In total, those 55,532 illegal aliens were arrested for almost 700,000 offenses, averaging 13 offenses per illegal alien:
[] Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.
[] Total number of arrests: 459,614.
[] Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890.
[] Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13.
[] Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10.
__________
Arrest Offenses: 45% of illegal alien offenses were for drugs and immigration:

Criminal offense: Drugs;
Total offenses: Number: 166,722;
Total offenses: Percent: 24%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 64,737;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 24%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 101,985;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 24%;

Criminal offense: Immigration;
Total offenses: Number: 144,166;
Total offenses: Percent: 21%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 84,382;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 32%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 59,784;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 14%;

Criminal offense: Traffic violations;
Total offenses: Number: 55,060;
Total offenses: Percent: 8%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 13,290;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 41,770;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 10%;

Criminal offense: Assault;
Total offenses: Number: 50,958;
Total offenses: Percent: 7%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 14,908;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 6%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 36,050;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 8%;

Criminal offense: Obstruction of justice;
Total offenses: Number: 45,632;
Total offenses: Percent: 7%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 15,064;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 6%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 30,568;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 7%;

Criminal offense: Burglary;
Total offenses: Number: 38,689;
Total offenses: Percent: 6%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 13,156;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 25,533;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 6%;

Criminal offense: Larceny/theft;
Total offenses: Number: 31,883;
Total offenses: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 12,206;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 5%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 19,677;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 5%;

Criminal offense: Fraud, forgery, and counterfeiting;
Total offenses: Number: 25,773;
Total offenses: Percent: 4%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 8,564;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 17,209;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 4%;

Criminal offense: Weapons violations;
Total offenses: Number: 22,263;
Total offenses: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 7,236;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 15,027;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 4%;

Criminal offense: Motor vehicle theft;
Total offenses: Number: 20,950;
Total offenses: Percent: 3%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 6,494;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 14,456;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 3%;

Criminal offense: Robbery;
Total offenses: Number: 15,305;
Total offenses: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 4,177;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 11,128;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 3%;

Criminal offense: Stolen property;
Total offenses: Number: 13,415;
Total offenses: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 4,201;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 9,214;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 2%;

Criminal offense: Sex offense;
Total offenses: Number: 11,833;
Total offenses: Percent: 2%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 2,501;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 1%;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 9,332;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 2%;

Criminal offense: Disorderly conduct;
Total offenses: Number: 8,768;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 2,986;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 5,782;

Criminal offense: Property damage;
Total offenses: Number: 6,478;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 2,238;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 4,240;

Criminal offense: Homicide;
Total offenses: Number: 5,992;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 1,156;
_________________

HEALTH CARE:
There were 4,000 births last year at the Laredo, TX Medical Center maternity ward. 3997 healthy, screaming new American citizens, of whom, half were born to illegal aliens. Mexican madres giving birth in U.S. maternity wards in order to obtain better care and blue PassPorts for their offspring, is as old as the border itself.
________________________________

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Posted by: d.a.n at March 24, 2006 6:15 PM
Comment #135719

Concentration camps perhaps?

Posted by: Zeek at March 24, 2006 7:09 PM
Comment #135723

We are being overrun.

Posted by: Donnell H. Harvey at March 24, 2006 7:16 PM
Comment #135732

kctim….. I’m only irrational when I don’t believe in something…..or don’t agree with you….. ;)

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 24, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #135733

Funny Zeek.

They are already filling up our prisons.
We can deport them, but the return.
Just like Jorge Hernandez, a.k.a. Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk. He had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and he had been deported to Mexico 17 times!

First of all, let me say that I do not hate any one from any nation. This is not an issue of race, nationality, etc. I simply do not like illegal aliens (no matter where they come from) burdening our healthcare, education, welfare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems. Please do not make a race, class, nationality, etc. issue out of this.

Donnell H. Harvey,
Yep, We are being overrun, and we are too lazy to do anything about this problem, like so many other pressing problems, then Americans deserve the consequences of their own laziness and negligence.

I don’t think enough Americans understand the problem. There’s about 1 million illegal aliens in North Texas alone (where I live).

We have sold out ourselves, and we are are being crushed by the weight of our own laziness and stupidity. Perhaps we sold ourselves out long ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of assets?

No reforms (including immigration reform) are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents,  always,  every election,  until no more irresponsible incumbents exist,  and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades. 

Posted by: d.a.n at March 24, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #135735

This is a tricky issue, let me respond to it this way:

As a born resident of America, it is easy to see myself as somehow different from the guys sneaking accross our borders at night, hidding in the backs of trucks, avoiding police, etc. The problem is that in reality, I am no different from them. My great Grandfather came over durring the great depression, while Eastern Europe was facing economic hardship beyond anything even America was seeing. He came over, they gave him a chance, and he prospered. Of course, that is only one of many relatives from different places, but rest assured, besides the part of me which is Cherokee, my entire family came from other places. They came here and were welcomed, and that really is what America represents to me. Because how is someone born in Mexico, say 20 miles from the border, really any different from someone born one footstep over that border.

In my opinion, anyone who wishes to be a citizen of the United States should be welcomed. Other countries, like France and Germany, they make ethnicity a factor in citizenship, but even if they have the right to, America certainly does not. Because none of us have any ancestral claims, any true ownership, with the possible exception of those oh so ignored Indians sitting on reservations in destitute poverty (demographically native americans are the poorest and least educated ethnic group).

So what we need, I would say, is to streamline the naturalization process. We need to make it so people can come here legally, so that businesses cant exploit them with illegal wages and dangerous labor.

America is a country who’s existence is due to a bunch of plucky immigrants who refused to die. Prisoners sent over to build the Frency city of New Orleans, Protestants and people looking to escape something. If we shut the fighters out, then we’ll become weaker because of it.

Posted by: iandanger at March 24, 2006 8:26 PM
Comment #135741

I also believe that if you wish to stop illegal immigration you must first remove the demand. I know that congress would never go against the $-men this way, but…. 1) $100,000 fine for every undocumented worker employed, 1st offense. 2) No cap on fines. 3) NO EXECEPTIONS .

Posted by: Ted at March 24, 2006 9:17 PM
Comment #135751

VEM,
I have to say this.
I don’t think Republicans are really serious about immigration reform.
It’s all an act.
Nothing will come of it.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 24, 2006 10:27 PM
Comment #135761

in southern california today 5 high schools had to lock up and shut down because of hispanic student rioting , what type of flags were they waving? flags of mexico! it is not right for the other students who want to go to school and learn . you got a gripe dont use a high school that really shows who the bullies are. these schools are locked down. whats kind of sick ideology is that we dont get what we want now were going to close you down. remember the other students people!

Posted by: JAY at March 24, 2006 11:49 PM
Comment #135765

zeek his qoute ( concentration camps perhaps?) what a bizarre answer! it is not even funny. it has nothing to do with this post. what a foul offensive post.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 12:20 AM
Comment #135767

V. Edward
See we can agree on something. Illegal immigration is a problem. And illegal immigrants are felons.
But it’s not going to stop until it become to unprofitable for those that hire illegals to do so. And that won’t happen until Congress decides to make unprofitable. And that ain’t going to happen with our bought and paid off Senators and Representatives.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 25, 2006 12:34 AM
Comment #135783

JAY, your comments appear to be a blatant lie. AND I am calling you on it. There were no riots. The students walked out in protest and there was no violence, no destruction and they complied with police requests.

Your comments, according to news reports on the subject, are a lie, and I suspect reveal a bigotry that needs a spotlight shown upon it.

If I am wrong, please provide the evidence. Absent such evidence, consider the spotlight on.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 4:38 AM
Comment #135784

JAY, Chicanos and Chicanas have much better schools today in LA due to walkouts just like these back in the 1970’s. To depict their walkouts as anything other than a lawful and legal protest and exercise of 1st amendment rights reveals your agenda, not theirs, in my opinion.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 4:41 AM
Comment #135794

I have been thinking about this issue and in keeping with the American Spirit, I wonder if a Bill in Congress that did allow every Corporation in America formule request from “We the People” the number of Guest Workers that they need and for how long. Than depending on the number and length of time employeed at the Higher Standard Living Wage the Government would sale them permits at around $5,000.00 each coupled with a fine of $250,000.00 or up to 99% Profit of said Corporation for one year if found in Non-Compliance with program.

Additionally, I would recommend that the Guest Worker Program Certificates be actioned off to All Citizens of Humanity’s Nations not just Mexico. By even getting a $1.00 for each guest worker in revenue would help offset the cost of the program. Thus with a break-even management system that govern the GWPC’s “We the People” won’t have higher taxes.

I’m not sure people would like it; however, it does allow them to have Guest Workers and America choice between the Best the World has to offer.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 25, 2006 7:58 AM
Comment #135795

V. Edward,

they are already felons the moment they step foot in this country
and Ron Brown,
illegal immigrants are felons.

Correction. You are not a felon until you are TRIED AND CONVICTED of a felony. Our ccriminal justice system is already overloaded. How much more work do you want to add?

Making illegal immigration a felony won’t do anything more to stop it than is already being done. If you want to stop illegal immigrations there are only two ways to do it:

1. Build an inpenetratable wall around this country and beef up the customs and border patrol so that nobody gets in without documentation. Beef up inspections at our sea and airports so that all people coming in are thoroughly screened. Go after all the illegals that are already here and deport them. The cost of a program like this, in my opinion anyway, would be prohibitively expensive both in term of dollars and in political terms - “Fortress America” would contradict our claim to be the home of the free and the land of the brave, now wouldn’t it? Thjis approach is doomed to failure.

2. Illegal immigrants come here because they can always find work. So, if the opportunity for work wasn’t present, the flow would drop to a more acceptable level. Illegal immigrants find work in this country because some employers find it cheaper to use them. So let’s make that unpalatable for the employers. I like Ted’s proposal. Fine the employer a fixed amount per illegal employee - say $10,000 per worker for a first offence and a misdameanor conviction. Second offense: $100,000 per illegal employee, loss of your business license, and a felony conviction. Third offence: $1,000,000 per illegal immigrant and a mandatory prison sentence of ten years. And so on. I think this would dry up the market for cheap illegal labor. And with the market dried up, the flow would stop.

Posted by: ElliottBay at March 25, 2006 7:59 AM
Comment #135797

iandanger

Anyone who wishes to become a U.S. citizen can become one just as long as they obey the law. Entering the country illegally doesn’t count!

ElliotBay

We agree on almost everything…regardless of what you call illegal immigrants if they care caught deport them; no trial necessary…

V.Edward

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 25, 2006 8:32 AM
Comment #135798

Ouch… as a liberal I have to agree. See, sometimes you just can’t peg us as one particular thing or another… But, allow me to give my liberal spin. Sometimes I think that I am a liberal because I just love to take things and see all sides… once I do, I realize that it isn’t always as simple as we would like.

Some solutions just don’t make sense though. Yes, believe me when I say this… I am speaking from experience… I was between jobs (company moved production to China) and I went to a local clinic to try to get medical help.

Because I am a disabled vet I couldn’t get health treatment… the VA hospital is 90 miles away, non-disability related visits are on a first come, first serve basis and the last time I went there they would not help me because the issue wasn’t “service connected.”

So, I was unable to use the state or county facilities because I was a disabled vet and had to use the VA… and the VA wouldn’t help me because it wasn’t their problem.

The problem? Yes, illegal immigrants were going in and seeing the doctor in droves while I sat there being told that I was outta luck. Was I resentful? Sure.

Some of the issues though are tougher than just ship ‘em back or fining the employers. Yes, when living in So. Ca I used the workers standing on the side of the road to help me move one time… I paid them $5 apiece because I needed help moving. I was hypocritical and admit it… a lot of people too use the service directly or indirectly and don’t admit it.

While placing a heavy fine on the employers seems to be a solution, most are not equiped or qualified to determine the legitimacy of documentation… so they take a chance or just refuse to hire anyone “looking” hispanic.

Ron Brown, I hope you read this… you are a small business man (not implying physical stature) and maybe you can shed some light on what it means to protect yourself from hiring anyone that is illegal… and how you would determine, as a small businessman, the legitimacy of a person’s papers?

The problem here? Once a person legally attains either resident alien or citizenship he/she should not fear being discriminated against because of name, skin color, ethnicity, origin, religion, sex or any other reason for the convenience of a company or society. That is the price we pay for living in a free society where sometimes rights and freedoms are inconvenient and costly.

Solutions such as the Proposition in CA that required school teachers to report “suspected” illegal residents to the authorities also is not a good thing. Viscerally it seems like a good idea… however, it is not the job of the teacher to enforce the immigration law. They are not trained law enforcement officers… they are teachers dedicated to teaching each student in their classroom. Imagine the impact on a teacher’s ability to do their job if they reported wrongly?

The education level of the immigrant is mentioned. We do not know the future status of the ones that are in America today. Who knows if there is going to be an “amnesty” some time down the line. It has happened. Do we want uneducated illegal immigrants to now be uneducated citizens?

I am not sure… but I believe that education is the biggest predictor of drug use and criminal behavior…

Same with health care. In such a society that we have today, the bird flu being the big example of how easily disease can possibly spread… do we want people, regardless of their method of arrival, running around sick? We will have to pay the cost… preventative medicine is always cheaper than treating the advanced stages of an illness.

These are just a few of the thoughts this “liberal” has when it comes to the issues of immigration. Like I said, I want to see something done, but I don’t want it to be another “war” on something. I am tired of the wars. There have been too many social programs that are called wars and it is really making people lose sight of the significance of that word.

War on Poverty
War on Crime
War on Drugs
War on Inflation
War on …

Lastly, I do believe that Jesus was a criminal. Wasn’t he brought to Pilot for treason against Rome?

I am not aware of Jesus having a nationialistic message. Many great social changers were seen as criminal in their times… Jesus, Mandella, MLK Jr., Ghandi…

Why am I bringing up this particular point? Because, people have a tendency to attack Senator Clinton no matter what she says.. and then later the Republicans say the same thing as if they invented it. Remeber her book, It Takes a Village? Oh how many times that title was said with a curled lip and rolled eyes.

Look to NCLB and you will see through out it the need to be inclusive of the communities resources to help schools.

Look to the office of Faith Based Initiaves which was created to use the resources of the community to help with problems of society.

Same thing, different name…. Now a basis of Conservative/Republican policy and the shining example of conservative compassion.

My hope… maybe you don’t like the messanger… but listen to the message. This would help from distorting the words and message of Jesus to gain political points.

If the similarities between Senator Clintons interpretation of the message of Jesus wasn’t close enough… what about the relative severity of the crimes that were charged? Illegal immgrants are felons because they violted our immigration laws… Jesus was a charge with treason against the state…

We can say that the message and mission of Jesus transends the state… which would kind of be supportive of Senator Clinton’s message that the message of Jesus might be of more importance than rashly attacking the immigrants because of their violation of the laws of the state.

His message was so simple… so elequant… “Love they neighbor.” I am not sure, but that was in an inclusive way… one not limited by time or geography.

Bottom line? Let’s deal with illegal immigration rationally, compassionately and in a manner in keeping with all that America stands for… not emotionally creating the sense that these people (citing the examples of the bad does not mean it is reflective of the whole) are our next terrorists… that we need to go to “war” on immigration because of a clear and present danger concerning national security.

Unfortunately, since the need for oil has become our heroin, we equate economic advantages and conveniences with national security. It used to mean enemies with real weapons and designs on doing harm to our country.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 8:46 AM
Comment #135801

Darren7160, doing harm to our country equals doing harm to our people. And the 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants are doing harm to our people. Aside from the criminal element, they are taking jobs away from citizens, and artificially holding back free market forces that would dictate an increase in the minimum wage (something a majority of states are undertaking on their own btw, despite the US gov’t.s foot dragging.)

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 10:00 AM
Comment #135802

How would mexico treat an american who had counterfiet papers and crossed the border into mexico?
Maybe we could use that as an example of how we should treat people who come here illegally!

Posted by: Weary Willie at March 25, 2006 10:00 AM
Comment #135812

David,
Did I deny the costs? I don’t think so. So, other than saying that I am not reaching the level of impassioned moral outrage you feel I should, do you have a point?

I know all the arguments… I can find find them throughout our history of immigration, from the Irish, to the Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Germans… It could be a template for a word processor and we just change the nationality, numbers and dates. We survived.

Doing harm. I will have to remember that as an effective way to change between “Clear and Present Danger”, “Vital to Our National Security” and now “Doing Harm to Our Country”

You do not deny my message… just the diffence of how loudly we each are crying the sky is falling.

Chances are most people reading this blog wouldn’t be here if the “immigration reform” people throughout history had it there way. Do a 30 minute Google if you know when your ancestors came over… check it out. It isn’t hard to do and it will be really enlightening. Do not assume that just because your ancestors were from Germany or Ireland or Italy or Sweden or any other nation that they were not subject to the same names, accusations and numbers.

Please, please, please, gain a bit of perspective instead of thinking of ways to attack me because I am citing the historical truth. Truth should not be attacked just because you don’t like my message. Would that be “political correctness”?

Even the arguement that they are not refugees from tyranny but here for economic reasons! Out history is replete with economic immigration. It is a continual issue. Just historical fact. So, excuse me if I do not pull my hair and gnash my teeth.

I am not denying the problem nor the need to address the problem. I just refuse to get morally outraged and march down the street. If my concern does not reach the level of sufficiency some may believe it should, then it may be because I have other issues more pressing or see things slightly differently. Possibly my considerations of the issues on a scale do not tip as far to one side as the other…

I do not do a Pavlovian salavation to issues but look at them. Right now I am going to have to check out the “felony” part because I am reading that there is a law in congress being addressed to make it a felony to be an illegal alien… But, say it is a felony, there are many different levels of felonies… some are so bad that they justify the use of force, some don’t.

If we want to talk about strict adherence to the law regardless of circumstance or the impact on society or the minority… then we need to accept that in Afganistan a man is on trial for his life for converting from Islam.

Okay, go and say apples and oranges. But, the ability to see apples versus oranges requires admitting the importance of the circumstances of the felony or crime, its severity and its impact. The rationale behind it.

People opposing “secular humnism” believe that God is the ultimate authority and the one we must ultimately answer to… not the civil authorities. Thus, if the religion states that they must kill someone because he renounced Islam, then aren’t they doing what the people against “secular humanism” are advocating? Obeying God’s law, not man’s?

Tell me I am wrong. I guess I should qualify that … use some other argument than their’s is the wrong religion and our’s is the right one. ‘Cause honestly, faith is based upon that which cannot be proven… so unless we die, the belief in our rightness is based on our faith.

Weary Willie,
I have no idea how they would. Do you? Please cite sources so we can discuss based upon knowledge, not “Well, I bet they would…”

As to my points… Those were not addressed, which leads me to believe that they were either correct, or the people resonding did not read what I had to say but responded based upon what they thought I was saying.

Again, if I do not foam at the mouth it does not mean I am not concerned… just choose to use my brain, my heart, my understanding of Christ’s message as originally intended… not some way that others seem to want to distort it. Because, like I said and have not yet received a denial to, Jesus was accused of treason against Rome… which would be the same crime today, the same punishment then as today… and his crime was to deal with the people as they were… Children of God. Therefore, in the vital interests of the state, Pilot should have executed Jesus. Period! a+b=c

Why the religon in all this? Well, Senator Clinton mentioned Christ and in the interest of once again “sticking it to Hillary” an attempt was made to distort the simple message of Christ… all in the name of never passing up a chance to attack “Hillary.”

I forgot, like children, we like to beleive that we are the favorite… but I personalize the message, and as a father, I love all my children.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 11:00 AM
Comment #135817

Weary Willie,

That would be dangerous indeed.
First of all, a common practice is to hold the person for ransom, and try to bilk relatives for as much as possible. Then, you might not be so lucky. The bottom line is that committing a crime in Mexico can have very serious consequences, no matter how minor.

(81 year old handcuffed to bed, trying to get cheap prescriptions in Mexico)

(only in possession of amunition)

But, being anywhere close to the border can be dangerous. Twenty-seven (27) Americans have been abducted in Mexico’s northern border region over in only the last six months, and two have been killed.

Mexican Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez had said the U.S. State Department public announcement, issued Wednesday, exaggerated the danger. Amazing eh?

The U.S. consul to Reynosa, on the Mexican border across from McAllen, Texas, issued a separate alert in September 2005, for U.S. travelers planning to visit that city. The advisory came after officials received reports that Mexican police allegedly were forcing U.S. drivers to remote places or to automated cash machines, where they were told to hand over money or face jail time.

Darren7160,

I appreciate your desire to be benevolent to illegal aliens. However, please see the research. The crime alone (for which there is overwhelming evidence; see GOA report above), is enough reason to put an end to illegal immigration.

Legal, regulated immigration is OK. Even good.
Uncontrolled, massive immigration is not OK. It is also illegal, and creates chaos and societal disorder. Despite the claims of economic benefits of illegal aliens, it is false. Many credible sources have overwhelmingly proved otherwise.

I do not hate any one from any nation. I simply do not like, nor feel illegal aliens (no matter where they come from) have a right to burden our healthcare, education, welfare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems. This is not an issue of race, class, nationality, etc.

The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

THE SOLUTION:
[X] Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)
[X] Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
[X] Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
[X] Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
[X] Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 11:16 AM
Comment #135819

I agree with Darren - the problem is more complicated than it appears. There were already penalties for hiring illegal aliens, no? What has that done to correct the problem so far?

As far as giving away American jobs goes, how is hiring an illegal immigrant different from outsourcing jobs to another country? One is legal, one is not, ok but… think about it, who will this new law apply to? Small business owners … Not large corporations, who simply outsource whole divisions of their companies, legally.

So, rich people have the right to hire cheap labor, but poor people do not. Great. Another shining example of how the rich get richer. I’m just saying this quick fix-it is a pile of hoodoo.

Squeaky

Posted by: Squeaky at March 25, 2006 11:28 AM
Comment #135820

This is a tough one, and I’ve already weighed in earlier with my thoughts and opinions. That, in fact, is exactly what it is…..my opinion, but one that is greatly influenced by many years of up close and personal experiences. Willie actually touched on something that had a ring of credibility to it……how many other countries would be as tolerant and for as long as we have? How many countries would allow “us” to invade their lands, demanding we be fed, clothed, cared for medically, educated, and etc, all the time it being done in our home language!!! English is probably a second language at least in most other countries…..but I’m thinking it would be a real eye-opener to us if we tried to demand they change for our benefit.
Guess this all boils down to the fact that it’s something you would have to live with, experience for yourselves to understand the awareness and concern we SHOULD adopt.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 25, 2006 11:28 AM
Comment #135821

Darren
The law requires us to get some kind of picture government issued picture ID and a Social Security card from all new hires. this is supposed to be proof that the person is legal to work in this country. Most the time these are legitimate documents and there’s no problem.
The way things stand now if you have these document on file and the person isn’t legal your not in any trouble.
It’s getting harder to tell forgeries from the real thing. As technology progresses it’s getting easier for the foragers to make the forgeries look real.
But most illegals will get SS numbers and get legal state Id’s. Most the time the SS number is either nonexistent or has been lifted from a dead person.
The Social Security Administration has a website you can go to and see if the number belongs to someone that’s dead. I don’t remember the web address but my personnel manager has it.
The problem with that is, I was hiring a man that I’ve known sense 6th grade to manage the shipping department for me. When the personnel manager ran his SS number it came back that he was dead. Took a while to straighten that one out.
I hired a couple of Mexican guys one time. They had both had SS cards and a Georgia drivers license. After a couple of years the SS office told me that I had a couple of dead folks working for me. I’m actually surprised that they caught it.
I’ve sense started using their website.
Sorry buddy, you lost me on the last part of you post. I fail to see any similarity between Jesus and some as godless as Hilliary Clinton.
But Jesus was charged with treason against Rome. Although he never spoke or did anything against Rome. In fact he told his followers to obey and respesct the authority of Rome.
If he’d been given a fair trial he would have been released. But that didn’t happen because the ‘religious leaders’ wanted him dead.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 25, 2006 11:39 AM
Comment #135822

d.a.n
“Please do not make a race, class, nationality, etc. issue out of this.”

I did not. My suggestion was geared towards illegal immigrants, and as you said, it has nothing to do with their race it is a matter of their burdening our government.

JAY,

“zeek his qoute ( concentration camps perhaps?) what a bizarre answer! it is not even funny. it has nothing to do with this post.”

It has everything to do with this post. This is about illegal immigrants, and I mentioned a way that would make illegal immigration highly undesirable. If it seems foul and offensive perhaps that is because you construed it in the wrong way. That, or you find some moral problem with forcing illegal immigrants to do labor. I personally do not.

Posted by: Zeek at March 25, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #135824

Zeek,
I wasn’t pointing the statement directly at you. It was a general request to all. Sorry if it seemed that way.

BTW, I’m not terribly interested in deporting illegal aliens already here (unless they commit other crimes). But, I’d like to see the borders secured, and an end to the abuse of our systems. Also, I’m not sure many Americans really understand the magnitude of the problem, unless they have spent some time in the border states, or a few large cities where they gravitate to.

But, if Americans are simply too lazy to do anything about this problem, like so many other pressing problems, then Americans deserve the consequences of their own laziness and negligence. We sold out ourselves, and we are are being crushed by the weight of our own laziness and negligence. Perhaps we sold ourselves out long ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of assets?
No reforms, including illegal immigration reform, are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Or, learn the hard way. History has already shown us the result of unregulated, massive immigration. The end result is what we are seeing. Crime, chaos, and societal disorder.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 11:56 AM
Comment #135828

The borders can be secured.
It is not as difficult as some want you to think it is.

There are several easy ways to do it also.
Here’s a pretty good idea.
This would reduce the number of personnel required.

Another approach is to secure the borders with resources we already have. We could simply position a mere 1% of the total 2.6 million active military, guard, and reserves along the borders where they could be more effective toward the goal of national security and defense. The U.S./Canada border (about 4000 miles) and the U.S./Mexico border (about 2,000 miles) could both (about 6,000 miles) be secured with 1,200 posts (spaced about 5 miles apart; denser in some areas than others) with 20 soldiers per post, which would only require 26,000 soldiers (about 1 every 1218 feet).

See, it’s not that hard. Not really.

And if illegal aliens don’t think it would work anyway, or make any difference, then why be upset?

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 12:04 PM
Comment #135830

You would not go to bed at night and leave your doors and windows unlocked.

You would not allow strangers to come into your home uninvited.

So why would you allow uninvited illegal aliens come use your hospitals, schools, welfare, and burden your education, healthcare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems ?

And, should illegal aliens be able to vote in our elections? Because, they are.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 12:23 PM
Comment #135833

d.a.n.,
Again, you are not saying anything new. Denying citizenship to a person born in America, regardless of ANYTHING else would probably require a Constitutional amendment. Please don’t forget to include citizenship for those born outside of the US while their parents were in a foreign country due to military service. I would hate to see my son lose his citizenship in a mad haste to close the door.

Everyone says it is the “illegal” that is what they are against… has anyone looked at the level of legal immigration? Even when there are some that come here on work visas there seems to be a feeling that those are too many… in other words, intellectually we believe that legal immigration is okay… when in actuality, even the number of legal immigrants causes a bit of a stir.

Go figure… but, it isn’t because of race or anything. Just all those slightly darker people with funny accents working as computer programmers and doctors they are just fine. Right? No one here has ever said anything about them… they are legal immigrants. Or the typical person owning a convenience store as portrayed on tv and movies… they are legal. But, do people resent them for owning the stores?

I got an idea… this is a bipartisan issue… why not hammer the companies that ship out our jobs, bring in the legal workers who are taking jobs from Americans who want to do it… and leave the produce picking people alone? Ooops. Sorry, got emotional there. It isn’t racial or political… just plain old common sense. Forgot.

The numbers of legal immigrants? Are they sufficient to provide the low level job picking produce that some claim Americans are more than willing to do? I personally, based on my experience, do not see Americans picking the produce at the wages being paid… oooops… there goes your grocery bill. See, like a tangle of string, you pull one end and all types of things happen. I just like to pull the string and see what happens.

Aren’t the immigration quotas based upon nationality? An attempt to maintain the racial and ethnic make up of America instead of allowing nations that aren’t allowing their citizens to beome affluent being the consideration? So we need as many immigrants from affluent countries?

My goodness… I try to take down the rhetoric just a notch or two… just try to bring a reasoned perspective in which to make the issue one that can be dealt with rationally and I guess that I am just “benevolent.” It may not have been your intention so excuse me if I am projecting here… but it seems as if there was an allusion to that being a bad thing. Exactly when did that become a bad thing?

Should I stand on the street corner wearing a sandwhich board declaring open war on illegal aliens? Grab people by the jacket collar and shakes them?

Emotionaly reacting, claiming no one understands the seriousness as much as I do, there needs to be a war declared on this issue because of its costing us money, compromising our security or not in the vital intersts of our country’s welfare… well, it just isn’t my style.

Emotional manipulation and fantasisim scare me. I don’t care what the cause is. Each is used to make someone the “enemy” and you are either for us or against us. Once they have become depersonalized then they can be dealt with guilt free. For some, maybe even the concentration camps because… How quickly we condem others and rationalize our own behavior. They were bad, we are different. Theirs was wrong because… but our’s is right.

I lived in So. CA for 10 years and am aware of the issues….

I believe you when you say that it isn’t racial or ethnic. That, however, has not been the case historically… and some did try to say that it wasn’t racial… or if it was, they were just trying to limit immigration to maintain the ratio of peoples alread in the country.

Sir, when I get my teaching license I will teach any child in my classroon. I will not check identity papers, nor will I report any illegal felon children to the authorities. If that is not okay with the authorities or administration I will gladly go somewhere else. Anyone that expects a teacher to be a law enforcement officer is wrong… or, do they as law abiding citizens call the INS each and every time they see or know of an illegal immigrant?

Some of those charities that are harboring illegals are churches… answering their belief of what God wants them to do.

See, this is the fun part of being philosphical or applying the philosophy of others when looking at an arguement.

Does securing our national borders supercede a person’s belief in his interpretation of what God wants? If so, are there other instances where a nationa may disregard God’s will or morality? … like abortion, stem-cell research, homosexuality? We always cite the old testament concerning the prohibitions against behaviors like abortion or birth control… ones that declare death to the violators… yet, in Afganistan they have behavior that is punishable by death in their religion and we pretend that it is sooooo barbaric!

Then to what level do we accept God’s will, a person’s interpretation of God’s will and the rights of a nation if they are in violation of what we believe God’s will to be?

Possibly I just like playing the advocate here… but people make so many claims and when the inconsistencies are brought out I am attacked, not the inconsistencies…. such as the one concerning Afganistan.

We can say that here they have a right to do what they want within their borders… their national soverignty….we can say that they are obeying their religous tenets…. yet Christians who say they believe they want a God based America are up in arms because it is a person of their religion that is about to face death unless something can be worked out.

Ron,
Thanks for your input. I just am fearful that in the haste to do something about this incredibly dangerous situation people will go overboard based on fear or misunderstanding…

I am confused though. You said you had illegals working for you for a couple of years? Why weren’t they in jail, drugged out or robbing someone? And, you let them drive trucks? It seems to be the general idea here that this would be the case.

Statistics are so much fun. The numbers cited here showing the relation between immigrants and drug use and crime… I wonder how much difference those ratios are from mainstream Americans?

How would you like to fight the immigration people and the proposed fines and all if they believed that you didn’t use due dilgence. Talk about the government getting their teeth into yah!

As things are, you might be okay… who knows what new legislation will bring if based on pandering to fear and political expediencey to be seen to be doing something? Read some of the proposals here and think about you facing the angry mod of indignant American’s wanting your pound of flesh.

When it comes to the God thing… the original post attacked Senator Clinton’s interpretation of Christ’s message…

“Note to Hillary Clinton: if Jesus were breaking the law, he too would have to be held accountable. And equating what Jesus did in helping the truly down trodden with the current situation is severely disingenuous and beneath the office you currently hold: stop pandering!”

So, I was pointing out that Christ was breaking a law… he was breaking a religous law and possibly a civil law. Again, it seems people are willing to shade Christ’s message or deny it because of who it is delievered by… in this case, Senator Clinton.

Speaking of below the office? Have you ever noticed Ron how I always use the person’s title… President Clinton, President Bush, Senator Clinton, Congresswoman Schmidt, Congressman Murtha? Why? People wanted to claim that it was President Clinton ruining the Presidental office’s reputation… well, actually, some might think that the Republican attacks on the President well before Monica did that already… I will continue to use their job title as a respect for the position… but I am always amazed by both sides that take it to the lower level and use things like “Hillary” when discussing a United States senator. But, heck, I am a liberal and I am not supposed to care about that stuff.

So many on the right want to declare that we must be a nation of God… that we must have our laws based upon a Truth higher than man’s. So, if God’s law, or Christ’s messages interferes with our secular comfort, security, crime, expenses, science or what have you… to which do we serve?

When it comes to a trial of Christ… possibly. However, that would depend on Rome’s interpretation of treason. I do know that formenting unrest in those times was seen as treasonous to Rome. Since Isreal was a province under Rome and Rome didn’t care about the religions of Roman provinces, only that they behaved and paid their tribute… a smart prosecutor could say that by formenting dissention among the religous leaders of the province, it was in fact, treason to the state of Rome.

I am not an expert on ancient Roman law, but I do not believe they had the nuances that we have today… just Pilot really not wanting to get into this mess.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 12:41 PM
Comment #135835

Normally I tend to fall on the liberal and compassionate side of the issue but this one I have to admit to agreeing with the right. I have NO problem with those who come into our country through proper channels. Many do. And live by our rules and customs.
I do, however, resent those who sneak over our borders and take advantage of our health care and education services all the while expecting the US citizens to bend over backwards to condone their non-assimilation into our culture. And when we get tired and fed up….they DARE to say we are racist!? EXCUSE ME…..when you are legal alien or an AMERICAN citizen, then you have the RIGHT to have the American dream. Otherwise, go BACK to your own country and come across legitimately. THEN we can talk. If, then, you want to call me racist, we can discuss it like equals. Until then, you are still a felon and a criminal!

Posted by: qatmando at March 25, 2006 12:50 PM
Comment #135836

d.a.n.
I always say that ignorance of math and science is not America’s problem…

As far as using our military… Two words: Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus Act
Source: G-OPL (United States Coast Guard)

“POSSE COMITATUS ACT” (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to “execute the laws” except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec ‘81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies—including the Coast Guard—especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html


http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm

I picked ones that is particularly interested in supporting a proactive interpretation of the law to meet your needs… I just wanted to show it isn’t all so cut and dried.

My stated belief had no relevance to people wanting to tell me how wrong I was… but their spefifics were lacking in content.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 12:51 PM
Comment #135843

If any of you think this is not a major issue…..tune into your cable station (MSNBC just showed it) and see the demonstration taking place in Los Angeles right now. Tens of thousands……in response to the proposals being presented to strengthen and enforce immigration laws…

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 25, 2006 1:13 PM
Comment #135844
be a feeling that those are too many… in other words, intellectually we believe that legal immigration is okay… when in actuality, even the number of legal immigrants causes a bit of a stir.
Illegal aliens far outnumber legal aliens.

Darren,
My wife was born on a military base in Japan, but she is an American. I didn’t mean through out all common sense.

Posse Comitatus
Then, expand the Border Patrol. That has already been suggested.
I always say that ignorance of math and science is not America’s problem…
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean.
My stated belief had no relevance to people wanting to tell me how wrong I was… but their spefifics were lacking in content.
I never said you were wrong. And you (above) already acknowledged all along that illegal immigration was a problem.
My goodness… I try to take down the rhetoric just a notch or two… just try to bring a reasoned perspective in which to make the issue one that can be dealt with rationally and I guess that I am just “benevolent.” It may not have been your intention so excuse me if I am projecting here… but it seems as if there was an allusion to that being a bad thing. Exactly when did that become a bad thing?
Thank you for trying to reduce the rhetoric. Please accept my apology for referring to you as benevolent. I see your point, but really meant no disrespect. Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 1:17 PM
Comment #135847

The issue must not be over-complicated.

Legal, regulated immigration is OK. Even good.

Uncontrolled, massive immigration is not OK.
It creates chaos and societal disorder.

This is not the only country that has had to deal with the problem.

If no nations could regulate immigration, then massive numbers of people would always descend upon places where things are good, until it is all used up, and move on to the next place. It is just simple common sense. Massive illegal immigration creates chaos and societal disorder, to the point that we are all losers.

Now, if the U.S. had no welfare, no Social Security, no Medicaid, no public education, no public hospitals, no health care, no universities, etc. then we would not have this problem, would we? So, perhaps that is the problem? We have all these public benefits that lure people to come here illegally? If all of that was eliminated, would so many illegal aliens then want to come here?

So, those systems are doomed to failure, and we all will end up with nothing. Perhaps that is best. It will probably be the end result. Already, it is not hard to fathom how this problem, along with our many pressing problems, could soon lead to an economic meltdown ?

All, I would not get to worked up about this, because government has not, and will not ever do anything about it. It’s all just a lot of talk. Even if the BILL passes, the government will continue to fail to enforce the laws.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 1:36 PM
Comment #135851

david r . you make a commparision to the 1970s for your anoligy today i don’t agree with it they the hispanics were truly a minority then. today in those high schools they consist of 70% of the schools( LA ca ) population. ok there was no bloodshed thank goodness! but it was a disruption david they locked the schools down!and the minority of the students who go there are denied a education and imitated by the majority of the students who are hispanic. david freedom of speech is a right to all americans. so take it to the streets like they did in milwaukie. do you think those minority of students who in the la schools were not afraid did they know that is was going to be peacefull? do they have no rights? on a other post your qoute to darren was ( and the 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants are doing harm to our people) why does that not apply to the minority of students in la county schools who are not hispanic? dont they deserve a education and a safe and secure environment to study in? .

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #135855

“Anyone who wishes to become a U.S. citizen can become one just as long as they obey the law. Entering the country illegally doesn�t count!”

This is just plain untrue. If these people could come into America legally, we wouldnt have to deal with illegal immigration on the scale we do now. Yes, we would still have drug cartels tunneling into the USA, but the vast vast majority of those comming accross that border are normal people. Building walls won’t help this situation, walls never help, they just get more people killed trying to cross them. If getting into the USA wasn’t so hard, if green cards were easier to get, then it wouldnt be nearly as large an issue.

Oh, and dan, I don’t lock my house or my car when im not home. I don’t fear my fellow man, and I’ve never been stolen from.

Posted by: iandanger at March 25, 2006 2:27 PM
Comment #135856

darren isreal was a occupied province of rome and pilot was the roman governor at that time that’s why the sanhedrin took jesus to him. and being like a typical politician he sherked his responsibilitys created a mob. inticed violence by floging and putting a crown of thorns on jesus. then gave lip service and walked away and washed his hands.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 2:49 PM
Comment #135861

iandanger

Umm, the last time I looked and checked anyone who goes through the “legal” process can become a U.S. citizen, with few exceptions. Yes it takes time, but it can and has been done millions of times. Those who come here illegally do so because they do not want to become U.S. citizens and just want to work and send their money home. Those who desire to become U.S. citizens go through the proper channels.

And a healthy fear of your fellow man is healthy thing…

All,

The solution to this problem is far from vexing; as many have suggested dry up the supply of jobs and the illegal’s will stop coming in such numbers. And take steps to streamline the process of working legally in this country, make employers prove they need immigrants to work in their place of business, and institute a guest worker program. That and build a fence because we still have the drug dealers and terrorist to deal with!

V. Edward

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 25, 2006 3:14 PM
Comment #135863
Oh, and dan, I don’t lock my house or my car when im not home. I don’t fear my fellow man, and I’ve never been stolen from.

iandanger,
Well, good for you.
Do you have children?
Do you live in the country?
I don’t know where you live, but perhaps where you live, it does not matter as much?

I live north of Dallas, Tx., and I guarantee you if you don’t lock your car or home (actually, an alarm system is highly recommended for both), then you will be a victim in no time flat.

The Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex has about 6 million people and there is a lot of crime, murder, theft, burglary, and crimes of all kinds (including the murder of Dallas policeman Brian Jackson on 13-Nov-2005,shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano).

I also have electronic alarm systems (tied into the city police department).
Living where I do and not locking the doors and no having deterrents to intruders would be very foolish indeed. That goes for just about any major city in the U.S. or any other country. I’ve only been to one nation where I felt perfectly safe in most places at most times: Japan (1993)

iandanger,
So, You say you “have no fear of your fellow man”?
Nonsense. Take a walk in Dallas at night, and tell me afterward that you don’t fear your fellow man (if you survive long enough). I almost got mugged in downtown Dallas one night, have had my car was broken into multiple times, and my home has been burglarized (before I got a security alarm system). Nope, you won’t catch me in such places at night (especially alone) ever again. That is not fear. That’s common sense.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #135866
The solution to this problem is far from vexing; as many have suggested dry up the supply of jobs and the illegal aliens will stop coming in such numbers. And take steps to streamline the process of working legally in this country, make employers prove they need immigrants to work in their place of business, and institute a guest worker program. That and build a fence because we still have the drug dealers and terrorist to deal with!

Thank you. Yes, it is not as complicated as some want to make it. And, securing the borders would not be that difficult either, using resources we already have.

Also, not all illegal aliens come here to contribute to society or find work.
Without border security, there’s nothing to keep the deported from returning, like Jorge Hernandez, a.k.a. Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk, had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and had been deported to Mexico 17 times!

This is all a collosal failure of do-nothing politicians. Polls show that most Americans , by a vast majority, want to stop illegal aliens trespassing our borders, and burdening our education, healthcare, hospital, welfare, Social Security, Medicaid, law enforcement, and prison systems.

I will be very surprised if government actually does anything about this problem. It won’t be the first time they acted like they cared, but still did nothing.

This reform, and all others are impossible until voters start doing what is required. Vote out all irresponsible incumbents, always. That would be most (if not all) incumbents.

Want to help?
Make a list of the most serious issues facing the nation.
E-Mail that list to your elected officials.
Here’s a list to start with.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 3:44 PM
Comment #135870

d.a.n.,
Thanks! You know, one of my concerns and the reason I try to think of things in perspective is human nature.

This issue, (fill in the blank) is our most pressing problem today. On a scale of 1 to 10 it is an 11! Once we deal with this issue (fill in the blank) then all of our major problems will be gone.

The problem is fixed and guess what? The second issue which was of an importance level of a 2 or 3 is now at an 11. Just because it is the foremost problem!

That is why I mentioned the War on (fill in the blank). Number 2 issue will always be the next one in the blank.

Just that expression makes me feel an overwhelming tiredness… like being on a treadmill and never going anywhere. Maybe I read to much history… but I swear to God the words written here are the absolute same as those written multiple times over the past 150 years or so. Yes, and each time they really meant that this time it really was beyond crisis. They were so concerned that (fill in the blank) were going to become the majority unless someting was done.

To others,
I see the statistics… I lived in So. CA. Regardless of immigration, legal or otherwise, just differing birth rates, the Latino community will be the majority. And a lot of them will all be native born, 2nd and 3rd generation Americans.

One of the things I always wonder is when there is fear of the minority becoming the majority… is it because the old majority might have been throwing their weight around and are now in fear of that happening to them?

Remember all, if we are in power we should behave the way we would want others to behave if they were in power. This is the case here in the shifting demographics (It really is too late to change the eventual shift) and in politics because no party stays in power forever.

Yes! Let’s deal with the issue. There is no need to beesmirch the whole illegal immigrant population by stating that this many or that many are this or that. It really is irrevelant and does nothing but stir the darker side of people’s fear.

Using the same statistical analysis then all Americans would seem to be drug addicted bank robbers who beat their wives and drive drunk. See, look at these numbers!

But folks, here in Wisconsin, far from the Mexican borders we are already overloaded in our prisons and looking for ways to ship prisoners to other states or build another prison. We are not all felons in Wisc. Contrary to the preceeding sentence.

Jay,
I am reading that the politicans aren’t doing their jobs. Through what it is that they are doing it is inciting our population to reach the level of frustration and anger that I am seeing exhibited here. That if something happens, it won’t be the fault of the population, but a reaction to politicans not doing their job?

An intersting point. Innaction by a politican and then his action causing a mob reaction from the people. Thus, somejow absolving them of accountability and responsibility.

Mob behavior is very interesting. The way that people so easily cast aside their own beliefs, sense of self control and take on the persona of the crowd.

I have always admired, heck America has always admired the individual. The “high noon” sheriff that stands before the mod with his rifle agains the angry lynching mob.

It isn’t as simple as people want to make it sound. Sure, the physical creation of a fence isn’t hard. Ask ancient China, the USSR or Isreal right now. Look at the gated communities where people scamper in fear instead of facing things head on…

It isn’t simple because there are many people involved. From the famers and corporations that use them, to the children who go where their parents go (how can we blame them and deny them vaccinations which protect everyone?).

Maybe the politicans are unable to come up with a working solution is once they have done the pandering to the darker fears of the electorate they are now having to be responsible and they find that it isn’t so easy. It is easy to cast demand the stones be cast… not everyone can cast them.

I know the costs are high financially, but I just can’t help but feel that when the costs are cited I am seeing the measure of a person’s morality… what they value. Possibly it is my lack of valuing money highly that makes me like this… between saving a few dollars or seeing a child gets treatment for pnemuonia or an education since they are here…well, I believe you can guess.

I don’t believe it is moral to harm a child because of the actions of the parents.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #135877

You state that because undocumented are here illegally they do not pay ioncome tax because they do not file tax forms. Aparently you have never worked for wages. Employers take tax payments out of your wages wether you file or not. Most often fileing is to get a refund back. By not being able to file undocuemented pay more in taxes than legals unless they are working for cash.
Most latino immiagrats are hardworking,decent people who take care of their families. How about we cut a deal with Mexico.For every corrupt CEO or corrupt politician they take from us ,we take a bus load of hard working Mexicans. We would be much better off but I doubt they would go for it.

Posted by: BillS at March 25, 2006 6:59 PM
Comment #135879

Both irresponsible incumbents, and slumbering voters let this happen.
Irresponsible politicians always let problems such as this one and many other problems, grow out of control, before dealing with them. You’d think we could all get much better for $2.2 trillion per year ?!?!

Now that politicians and voters ignored the problem so long, the problem is huge, and we will never be able to deport the 28 million illegal aliens here already. But we should secure the borders and put an end to more illegal trespassing. But, it’s unlikely that will ever happen either.

What bothers me most about all of this the do-nothing, irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for politicians that let this happen, and ignored, and ignored, and ignored it, until it (as usual) is going to be painful for everyone. Politicians are 51 % to blame.

And, lazy voters are 49 % to blame. Polls show a majority of Americans want border security, but politicians still ignore them. Voters are only slightly less culpable than bought-and-paid-for politicians (who choose corruption and greed, and ignore the voters) while voters were lazy, not paying close attention, and voting unwisely, and falling prey to the cheaters (politicians) that seduce voters into wallowing in the petty partisan warfare.

Even though voters will be those that suffer most for the irresponsibility of corrupt, bought-and-paid-for politicians, voters continue to slumber, and (amazingly) return every election, to vote re-elect the same incumbents that use and abuse the voters.

Voters have let things get out of control too, and corrupt politicians will never reform themselves.

So, it’s now up to the voters.
Sorry, but all roads lead to this conclusion.

Unfortunately, pain is what drives change.
Pain is a lagging indicator of irresponsible government decisions.

Thus, things can not get better until they get much worse.

But, one day, I hope, before (or without) things getting much worse, voters will get their act together, take off their partisan blinders, stopping being tricked into wallowing in the petty partisan warfare, and start votin’ out (or recalling) all irresponsible incumbents (which is most, if not all incumbents.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #135881

darren , you can interpret what i said however you like. people should be accountable for there own actions. but leadership should also! my point you cant turn your back on a problem if your in a leadership position. that applies for today and two thousand years ago.we dont need any fences we need good common sense goverment this border issue is just past on and on and on to the next leadership , how is that solving the issue? there’s more to goverment than making points or a poll or a group that they pander to for votes. i am a avid supporter of legal immigration it works. illegal is as it says illegal at least the last time it was defined by law or statute.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 7:37 PM
Comment #135882

Bills

Gee, I wonder how many illegal immigrants are paid in cash? It’s a safe bet most are. As a company that knowingly employee illegal immigrants why would I bring attention the practice by paying the workers with a company check? And yes I believe I work for wages now and have since I was 14. So I am well acquainted with income tax withholdings.

I have no doubt that most (illegal) “latino (sic) immiagrats” (sic) are hardworking decent people who take care of their families, but so am I and the vast majority of Americans. The difference is we play by the rule, they don’t. we obey the law (well most of the time) they don’t, we are here legally, they aren’t.

V.Edward

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 25, 2006 7:37 PM
Comment #135885

VEM,
Yep. Pro illegal alien proponents like to cloud the issues by saying:
(1) illegal aliens pay taxes; true, but it does not offset the high cost in abused systems and increased crime rates..
(2) what is the cost of the crime?

If you look at the GOA Report above, the study shows (for a study group of 55,000 illegal aliens), they committed an average of 13 crimes per person.

About 80,000 illegal criminal aliens, including convicted murderers, rapists, drug dealers and child molesters who served prison time and were released, are loose on the streets of America, hiding from federal immigration authorities.

Despite the creation of a new agency to hunt down criminal aliens and the infusion of millions of dollars to get the job done, many state and local police agencies who make contact with the aliens either never learn of their immigration status or never advise the federal government of their release.

What irks me is Bush saying illegal aliens are only here to do jobs we won’t do. Never mind the crime wave.

Note: This is not merely anectdotal evidence. 13 arrests per person for a study group of over 55,000 illegal aliens, is not merely anectdotal.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2006 8:06 PM
Comment #135886

Most undocumented folks work under false papers. Employers take out taxes to cover their butts. Same goes for Social Security and other payroll taxes.
The notion that these folks do not add more than they take is just innaccurate.
It is almost a marvel to watch how the neo-cons are once again playing their old standby race card to retain control of congress. God they are good at it. I would not be surprised if they were not encouraging the demonstrations against this bill.Rove is a genious. “But I am not a racist>” Would we be having this conversation if Canadians were taking jobs here? I Doubt it.
As before they have included penalties for employers. We already have those but surprise,surprise,they are almost never enforced and employers are easily shieled by contractor agreements.This will not change. Penalties mean nothing without enforcement.
Illegal? Yes the law is important. How about international law/ The US illegally siezed half of Mexico with no more justification than Iraq siezed Kuwait. That was a long time ago. Tell me,if someone steals your TV how long do they have to have it before it is legally theirs?Silly point? Sure,but remember that the people you are attempting to exclude are the indigenious people of much of what is now the US.This is a special circumstance and should be handled as such. It is not a simple as many assume.
Another aspect of the situations that trumps all others is demographics. Given the population expansion and age in Mexico there is no way to stop the flow of immigration from Mexico short of means that are unlikely in a civilized democracy not at war with Mexico. By that I mean things like kill zones,mine fields,summary executions and the like. Another,humane way, must be found to deal with the influx or we risk our souls.

Posted by: BillS at March 25, 2006 8:40 PM
Comment #135891

Jay,
Thank you for the invitation, but unlike some, I don’t want to intentionally misreprestent people’s words. My understanding of what one says and means is not based on how I chose, but rather on what the person says. So, if I am in doubt, I ask. It is a standard communication technique, listen, paraphrase what the person said back to them to see if you understood what he meant.

Granted, it is a bit different than name calling and attempting to earn brownie points with the kids on the playground by out “dissing” the other.

If I was wrong… well, I asked. If you didn’t like what I believed you to say, then please correct me. I don’t wish to make a martyr out of anyone. Thank you though for the permission.

You are right about the illegal. Damn right. The law is the law is the law. That is why I have always advocated the legal kneecapping of jaywalkers. Speeders? Well, you don’t want to know that I think they should get.

Again, some of the ideas expressed here, like concentration camps (whether tongue in cheek or not) bring to light some of the emotional responses. Does that include children of illegal immigrants? We can’t have them picking our produce, but we can have them picking trash up along our highways? Which, by the way I believe deserves even worse penalties than speeding!

Why should we care about the children of other nations? Why should I care about my neighbors 2 year old child if I see he has snuck out and walking towards the street? Do I care about the child next door but not on the next block? Do I stop and check documentation to determine whether or not the child is American and thus worth of saving? Walking into the street or not being immunized… the child is at risk on my street and I will not stand by.

If that gets me arrested or vilified on this weblog or by society… then, as a moral stand based upon my beliefs of what makes me a man… what makes me worthy of being one of God’s children… I will do what I need to do.

I always believed that the conservative right was concerned with life… but only from conception till birth. After that, well life isn’t so sacred anymore. It becomes a matter of dollars and cents… I got in here because of my grandparents (note, luck of birth… not that we are exceptional people brought most of us here.)

I am really getting sick of the demagogry. How many people have any idea what it takes to get here illegally? The hardship, the leaving loved ones, the trip over, the being in a foreign country where you are looked down on as drug addicts, criminals and lazy trash. You don’t get here, for the most part, by being lazy.

I had many friends in Ca who were illegal, and frankly, they were illegal, but I am sick and tired of any other social ill people want to dump on them freely because they are not protected by American law… thus not human.

It makes me sick and belies all the protestations of it not being racial. After all, like the Bell Curve, we have statistical proof! Just read our book, brouchure or listen to this radio personality.

After all, we all know that really deep down, in that place we don’t like to look at… we know that those stereotypes really are based on the truth… we have just been programmed to believe it isn’t. So, we look to other ways and means… statistics lazily interpreted is a wonderful tool.

Dan,
The information is very informative, however, may I ask a few questions concering the study? It would appear to say that of 55,000 randomly selected aliens all committed 13 crimes per person.

I would believe that it was 55,000 aliens who were criminals of the millions of aliens that are supposedly here, and these criminals committed 13 crimes each. There is a difference.

One way implies that all aliens are comitting crimes. Is that true?

How does this comapre to Americans? What were the crimes? As Jay noted… the law is the law. So, were some jaywalking? Driving without a license or insurance? Vagarancy? Armed robbery? Bank robbery?

As I mentioned before, we need to be careful with generalizations, especially ones backed up by numbers because people want to give significant importance to them if they can be given as a percentage… a percentage of what? Of whom?

Like my friend who had a friend robbed by a black person. She now feels that it is okay to be bigoted and not trust blacks. Would she have felt the same was if the robber hand been white? I doubt it…but I could be wrong.

Again, I just do not like distortion of facts being passed off as gospel… numbers, statistics, rationales, prejudices, steroetypes, assumptions should always be questioned.

It would be better if people were a bit more critical of their own thinking… That was my intent with the America not having a math or science problem. We have a problem with critical assesment of information. Gullable and too quick to believe what they hear that supports their own beliefs. It is endemic up to and including this administration that takes only evidence that supports their views and tries to alienate and ostracize people with differing opinions.

I wonder… how many people, in the interest of getting the whole picture looked at alternative, oppositional references when they were lookin up the numbers and ancedotes they wanted to support their position? My guess? None. Why should they? They are looking to support their beliefs, not find the different views of an issue with which to form an opinion. Because it is a matter of right or wrong. Legal or illegal. Yes or no. Black or white.

I try to find a pro and a con… read them and decide for myself. So, if emotional pleas, protestations of my “not understanding” doesn’t sway me that might be paart of the reason why.

Does that make me a part of the “intellectual elite’? God I hope so. I would hate to think that all that tuition, all that effort and all that time working towards educating myself wasn’t wasted.

I bet no one took the time to look up immigration reform movements or attidudes towards their ancestors when they came over, like I suggested.

Again, with all the comments are simply the same rehash…

See, I am a liberal, but I also have a business degree. That is why I supported the NAFTA… because it was supposed to create jobs in Mexico that would eventually create a sort of middle-class who would then want to purchase American products and that would be a win-win for both sides.

This would increase he affluence of the Mexican people and decrease the pressure for ilegally crossing into America.

The problem? Our American companies took away our jobs and sent them to Mexico and pay wages that will never allow the people enough money for discretionary income with which to buy American products. New jobs would be created in America to fullfil the growing desires in Mexico of all those workers with all that extra money.

Please, if we are going to look at this… let’s look at it on a broader basis then the same old rhetoric.

Someone, please, someone give me a new reason to be up in arms and ready to call out the national guard. Give me something unique, never seen before. One that really knocks my socks off. Otherwise, pardon me while I yawn.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 25, 2006 10:14 PM
Comment #135893

Darren7160, the rationality of your argument is absent. You are comparing apples to oranges. Immigration from Europe came through ports of entry LEGALLY!!!! Never in our history since the early 1800’s have we had anything remotely close to the ILLEGAL immigration occuring today: estimates range between 12 and 20 million illegals currently.

Legal immigration serves the nation’s purposes. Illegal immigration is robbing our citizens of their rights and resources within our own society. That is the difference. It is irrational to compare Ellis Island of the past to the Mexican border, and growingly, to the Canadian border of today. They are dissimilar in very fundamental and contextual ways.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 10:30 PM
Comment #135894

Darren7160, you ask for reason, then ignore the ones given. The effect of illegal immigration upon wages is a huge one. Check out some of the think tanks, conservative or liberal, the data is the same. The below minimum wages for illegal immigrants effectively removes millions of jobs from American citizens, and as I said before, prevents free market forces of supply and demand from functioning by suppressing wage growth which would attract citizens to the jobs now held by illegals.

Let’s see your business degree respond to this issue.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 25, 2006 10:40 PM
Comment #135897

V Martin,

You do a lot of notion rejecting, yet provide no facts to back up your argument.

Second, you rail against the alleged drain on our social services, but I’d ask how costly is it to the taxpayer compared to the cost of Bush’s Drug Plan or the Iraq War?

Posted by: Bert M. Caradine at March 25, 2006 11:07 PM
Comment #135898

I agree with the “get the dealer” concept. Target the business’s most likely to hire illegals. Raid the premesis. Impose a fine that is huge but survivable, say fifty percent of the companys’ net worth. Deport those illegals the raid catches. On the second offense seize 75% of the companys’ assets. Keep splitting the difference until the company gets the message or goes bankrupt.

Posted by: PE Gwinn at March 25, 2006 11:11 PM
Comment #135903

Darren

I am confused though. You said you had illegals working for you for a couple of years? Why weren’t they in jail, drugged out or robbing someone? And, you let them drive trucks? It seems to be the general idea here that this would be the case.

Don’t feel bad most Liberals are confused, that’s why their liberal. Just kidding.
Evidently these two guys didn’t use drugs. They passed the drug screen to get hired and pasted one in a random screen later. If they were robbing anyone I didn’t know about it or they would have been in jail, real fast.
No they didn’t drive for me. They showed a Georgia drivers license as part of the hire on process to prove they were legal to work. I wouldn’t have let them drive at any rate as both were under 21 and my insurance company wouldn’t have covered them.
When I found out they were illegal, I called immigration but by the time they got there both had disappeared.


How would you like to fight the immigration people and the proposed fines and all if they believed that you didn’t use due dilgence. Talk about the government getting their teeth into yah!

I have a friend that’s doing that right now. The INS decided that he has kept the proper documentation on file for his employees. A real headache to say the lest.

As a side note to the story I told about my shipping manager. The person the most surprised that he was supposed to be dead, besides him, was my personnel manager. She’s married to him.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 25, 2006 11:58 PM
Comment #135905

darren isreal was a occupied province of rome and pilot was the roman governor at that time that’s why the sanhedrin took jesus to him. and being like a typical politician he sherked his responsibilitys created a mob. inticed violence by floging and putting a crown of thorns on jesus. then gave lip service and walked away and washed his hands.

Posted by: JAY at March 25, 2006 02:49 PM

You could put it that way. However the Sanhedrin accused Jesus of treason against Rome. Pilot declare that he was innocent but the religious leaders wanted him crucified anyway, and threatened Pilot. That’s why Pilot finally approved of the crucifiction.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 26, 2006 12:09 AM
Comment #135906

darren the jaywalking one was good,! sorry i dont agree with you. but i do agree with d.a.n. and david r remer. for the most part. like i said darren i dont want any fences and armed guard borders. my dads family came from liverpool to ellis island legally it was not all fun and games then. my dads grandfather and his four sons came in 1902 that was the legal way! it was not perfect but it worked.ellis island opened in 1892 and closed in 1954 it had processed over 12.5 million legal immigrants. and before ellis there was castle clinton in battery park from 1855 and 1892 they processed 4 million legal immigrants to amercia and they gave medicine and health checks. another myth buster. they only sent less than 2% back becauce of health and crimminal records they accepted 98% of the people who walked through those legal gates! to americia. it was earned and appreciated and legal.16.5 million legal entrys in 100 years on the east coast.illegal is illegal.again by law and statute.it is not open for interpretation.

Posted by: JAY at March 26, 2006 12:37 AM
Comment #135908

Bert, hard cold numbers are nearly impossible to obtain due to the illegal and therefore underground nature of a sizable portion of illegal immigrant activity. We can’t even get a reliable census. However, the best estimate that has been put together comes from Center for Immigration Studies:

Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

So, over 10 years, 100 billion dollars net loss to American taxpayers. And that does not include opportunity costs like unemployment for lower skilled and educated citizens and students.

As FAIR points out about Florida:

The total costs of illegal immigration to the state’s taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, welfare programs used by the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were also calculated.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 26, 2006 12:53 AM
Comment #135909

ron think about it for a minute pilot was the law !the roman govenor of occupied isreal there,,s no way the sanhedrin would make threats to pilot. pilot killed over 200,000 jews the short time he was there. he was giving the name of the butcher of judea by the jews. ron his hands were as dirty as everyones elses dont give him any credit. ron he was a very bad person .just like the sanhedrin where then .the romans floged jesus and put the crown on and drove the spikes and raised the cross then jammed the pole in his side like you would a dog to check if he was dead, you should not give the romans a break some other people have in history and it was a holocaust

Posted by: JAY at March 26, 2006 12:59 AM
Comment #135911

I think that liberals, centrists, and real conservatives generally agree that illegal immigration is a critical problem that must be solved. I would like to see the following approach:

1. Start from zero, by giving a blanket amnesty to any undocumented immigrant who can pass a screen based on weighted criteria. These would include criminal record, length of residency, dependents, a demonstrated willingness to be self-supporting, ties to organizations that are hostile to democratic values, and others TBD. To ensure fairness, take the decisions away from the INS and guarantee qualified legal counsel for every applicant
2. Deport everyone else who does not pass the screen.
3. Make entering the country for the purpose of criminal activity a felony punishable by a long mandatory minimum prison term.
4. Do the same for human trafficking.
5. Seize the personal assets of business owners who show a pattern of flouting laws against employing undocumented workers. Throw some in jail.
6. Renegotiate NAFTA and CAFTA to bar imports from Mexican or Central American suppliers who do not pay a living wage.
7. Encourage Mexican and Central American industries whose labor standards will make staying in one’s home country a much more attractive proposition. American labor unions could do a lot here by investing in such businesses instead of complaining about low cost foreign labor.
8. Build the fence, but don’t fool ourselves that it will be enough. We will also need to guard the Gulf Coastline and the Pacific Coastline.
9. Turn off the racist and nativist rhetoric and get rid of Tom Tancredo and his ilk.

None of this will work, BTW, if we citizens don’t recognize what we get out of illegal immigration, especially cheap manual labor. Reducing illegal immigration (we will never eliminate it) will drive up the costs of a lot of businesses, everything from carwashes to construction, from lawn care to restaurants with busboys. If we are serious, we will have to pay the price.

Posted by: Robert Benjamin at March 26, 2006 1:15 AM
Comment #135915

Robert Benjamin
Thanks…some good ideas.

There is a great movie out called A DAY WITHOUT A MEXICAN. Funny as hell but also gets the point across. The basic premise involves all the Latinos disapearing from California.

Many post have stated that the big problem is that many immigrants are here illegally. Easy fix for that. Amnesty. If that is the big problem. Of course it is not. The problem is racism and exploitation. But for all you closet racist out there,you might as well give up. The culture has been and will continue to be dramatically changed by Latin culture and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Maybe pick up enough spanish to be polite and enjoy the food. What makes it too late to stop is simple. The children of the wealthy and powerful are being raised by Latin women. They are learnig Spanish from the cradle which is by the way ,being rocked by the hand that rules the world.

Posted by: BillS at March 26, 2006 2:46 AM
Comment #135916

robert you really believe that. hey some of those car washers make good money they average about two dollars a car tip you do the math you wipe off 8 cars a hour 16 dollars cash plus 8 dollars an hour check that my friend is 24 dollars a hour and 16 of it they dont report! not bad i know people with degrees that dont make that after taxes probly less.btw i try not to support illegal work. i wash my own cars do my own yard work btw i do a much better job and i pull weeds. and the builders shame on them it is all about profit for them bottom line. here in so cal. we had union carpenters hell they were all union up till about 1989 btw houses where affordable then. today cheaper labor but way higher corporate profit margins also look at the builders they have so much waste today there corporate headquarters look like the taj mahal with three thousand low paid and low skilled people working where one thousand higher skilled could do it. btw my dad owned one of the largest union sheet metal and heating and air conditioning companys in so cal from 1953 to 1986 at busy times he had three hundred union workers on the payroll. the secret the best trained journeyman workers, volume and production and a efficient operating office i can tell you he only had about ten people in the office and they worked there butts off. my dad paid them very well and my dad did not rob the treasury. he put money back in the company . today a business for most ceos is nothing more than a cash cow. they take and dont give back pure greed. it was not that long ago people like my dad did it. it could be done again.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at March 26, 2006 3:07 AM
Comment #135920

Some years back, NPR did a piece on a high school essay contest winner. Little Paulo won the contest and the NPR analyst couldn’t sing enough praise about Paulo overcoming his hard knocks, what with him and his eleven siblings living in a border town with his illegal mother. The poor tyke and his 12 family members were eking a living from their public assitance.

All I could think was that this was a good place to start. Paulo and his illegal family members should have been loaded on a bus and sent back to the far end of Mexico instead of feted for illegally looting the public assistance system.

If that sounds harsh, would you expect to be supported by the citizens of Germany if you snuck in their country and tried to live on the public dime?

Furthermore, most countries do NOT grant citizenship to every baby that is squeezed out by illegal residents. If that sounds harsh also then consider the fact that increasing numbers of women are entering the US in advanced states of pregnancy in the hopes that their children will be born as US citizens thus giving the entire clan a foot in the door. Consider also that these women are putting tremendous financial burdens on border medical facilities especially since they have zero prenatal care.

Let’s have an increased guest worker program with equivalent minimum wages and benefits. I’ll pay more for fruit if that’s what it takes. It isn’t really very compassionate to have a second class labor pool and it’s not a good idea fiscally in the long run.

Posted by: goodkingned at March 26, 2006 6:05 AM
Comment #135921

Robert!!!! Robert!!!!! Robert!!!!!
Thank you sir. New ideas in there! Knocked my socks off… and I have to admit… I really didn’t think anyone would do it!

David,

“Legal immigration serves the nation’s purposes. Illegal immigration is robbing our citizens of their rights and resources within our own society. That is the difference. It is irrational to compare Ellis Island of the past to the Mexican border, and growingly, to the Canadian border of today. They are dissimilar in very fundamental and contextual ways.”

Possibly they are different in fundamental and contextual ways… I am not sure of that because that would be off the top of my head and I want to reply here… I will give it thought though… you are probably right.

However, the outrage, the moral indignation, the fear… the reasoning… they have been all the same, regardless of the immigrants even coming here legally… which leads me to believe that the “illegal” issues isn’t so much that they are illegal, but that it is a way to try to reach the same results (keeping people out…note the fear of the Latino population shift? If it was German, or Swedes or English, do you really think there would be such panic?) by seemingly neutral means.

What isn’t apples and oranges, which I have been trying to bring into this discussion is the arguments against immigration, legal or illegal, have been around for years and years. Maybe it is a matter of crying wolf and some just aren’t rising to the bait anymore.

In other words, prior to the making it illegal, the arguements were the exact same… it is just that now that it is illegal it gives a “morally neutral” reasoning behind the desire to lock the door behind us.

Everyone here is saying that they have nothing against “legal immigrants” until it has become a cliche… Almost like, “I don’t dislike (fill in the blank) one of my favorite friends is (fill in the blank). Yet, I do not believe that is true because just as these illegal immigrants are “forcing down” the wages, the legal ones are being accused of the same thing.

In CA during the late 1980’s early 1990’s there were not enough nurses so hospitals like Kaiser brought them in legally from the Phillipines (who gave me excellent care, did appear to be drug addicts and did not rob me) on work visas. The problem as cited by some? That the low wages they were willing to work for would not be enough to induce people to enter the nursing field.

Computer programmers from India. Same thing… that there are enough programmers in America and the companies bringing them in are just trying to force down wages.

American companies do not necessarily need illegal immigrants to keep wages low if they are capable of shipping their jobs overseas.

They did that in the 1980’s (which is alluded to here by Rodney) when Reagan and his group used the “L” word and Unions as the source of all of America’s ills. Well, other than the “Evil Empire” which is strikingly like the “Axis of Evil” which is like the War on…, can’t we be talked to in sentences, must it always fit on a bumper sticker? Can’t we agree that there are issues or enemies and not be bombarded by hysteria, fear or attempts to stir our emotions?

It was believed that out of generosity and self interest, the companies would always treat their workers fairly and provide the benefits that they were earning… unions were out dated and no longer helpful… but actually harmful to American workers’ progress.

I submit that the companies were only generous because of the possibility of becoming unionized if they didn’t provide a fair wage and benefits.

Seems I was right. IBM and a bunch of other companies are eliminating retirement packages of their workers… not because the companies are finacially strapped, but because they can. There is no counter balancing power to stop them.

Sigh, some would say that it isn’t the responisibility of the company to provide for the worker’s retirement. These are the same people that say it isn’t the responsibility of the government to provide for the workers retirement… but without a corresponding increase in salary to compensate for the loss of retirement benefits then how does the worker provide for their own retirement?

If companies are unable to ship jobs overseas they can keep their wages low, if it is low skilled enough, by using temp agencies and keep the workers up to the time they would be required to provide benefits (last I looked it was like, 2,000 hours) and then let them go and bring in new ones. Or, they can let everyone go and try to bring them back as independant contractors. (This does happen and I worked for a couple of companies that did it.)

Okay. You may not agree, that is fine. Wages are low across the board because of illegals. But, I think that I was able to use my business degree there.

Some say that they aren’t buying the idea of illegals doing the work that American’s won’t. They don’t have to buy it. I hope that come the day everyone gets their wish they are willing to either pay $4 or 5 a serving for the salad they put on their table, or buy all their produce from some other country. Why? Because I don’t believe that there are enough Americans willing to go out and pick avacados, lettuce, tomatoes, onions at the wages that are being paid. It is seasonal work and too which often requires migrating to go where the work is… I just don’t see a whole lot of Americans doing that.

What I am loving is how everyone completely disregards my saying that I agreed that something needed to be done. How I was upset that illegal aliens were able to get access to health care denied to me… That was not seen as an opportunity to find agreement.

I gave an historical perspective of immigration along with some of the issues surrounding what is involved. Most only saw this as my not wanting to do something or not sufficiently being alarmed enough.

Is it any wonder that we are so divided and see compromise as a dirty word? It seems no one wanted to discuss possible solutions that could be worked out… ones that met the goals and had a minimum impact on the people involved.

Yes, they are here illegally, but that is still no reason to put on an iron fist or to think of them as less than human beings. I believe that they, like myself, are children of God. Their legal status is something that is relevant and should be addressed, but I do not believe that this entitles me to treat them other than children of God. If that means compassion then so be it.

I can see the wheels spinning now! Ah ha! Got me!!! These people are here illegally and are not entitled to rights! Gotcha there Darren!!!!

As President Bush pointed out last week on his televised press conference when he cited the Declaration of Indepandence… We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

His point was, that these rights were universal to all men from God. Not based upon legal status, religion, geography or method of governing (dictatorship, theocracy or any other form). Intestingly… I believe that this was in regards to the Christian being tried for leaving Islam. The same example I have used a couple of times.

So many issues have become moral issues instead of needs seen by both with different views or perspectives… where talking reasonably can lead to solutions… maybe not completely 100% happiness, but progress towards a solution.

No… instead it is a moral imperative that a person agrees with everything and rallys together based on a uniform groupthink. (For liberals, that is like herding cats. Can’t be done.)

I agree that something needs to be done. I do not however agree to go along with demonizing them, implying that they are drug addicts driving drunkenly on a crime spree.

So many people decided that instead of reading my agreement that something had to be done, decided that it was very important to them that I also believe the way they do. Funny, isn’t it?

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 26, 2006 7:55 AM
Comment #135922

Bills,

Now your argument is: it’s their land anyway so why not cede it to them? I don’t buy it, the land that is now the states Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California may have once been Mexican territory, but they were lost in a war; too bad.

And there is a humane way to end the flood of illegal immigration; see above.

Bert

I was one of the first to stand up and rail against the War in Iraq and I will go to my grave shouting at the top of my lungs that there was no justification for that war, at least none that rational thinking people would buy into. As for Bush’s Drug Plan, please explain. If you mean the ongoing War on Drugs, I think that to is a waste of money unless it addresses the root cause of America’s drub addiction, which increasingly it does not.

The articles I provided through out the editorial piece and at the end bear out most of what I have stated. The drain is not alleged, it is real, and it is only getting worse as illegal immigrants creep into places they have never been before looking for work.

Mr. Remer,

Thank you for the statistics…

Robert

I like your approach to the crisis; it makes a lot of sense, which is probably one of the reasons it will never get implemented! And I for one would be willing to pay the higher cost, and or, gasp, mow my own lawn, wash my own car, cook my own food, clean my own house, and raise my own children. Oh yes, I do that now!

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 26, 2006 8:12 AM
Comment #135925

Correction:

“…legally from the Phillipines (who gave me excellent care, did appear to be drug addicts and did not rob me) on work visas.”

should have read:

“…legally from the Phillipines (who gave me excellent care, did not appear to be drug addicts and did not rob me) on work visas.”

I hate it when a whole post is disregarded because of a typo or misspeling. Just goes to show the difficlty or proofreading our own material.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 26, 2006 8:41 AM
Comment #135928

Good aticle, VEM. Sens. Boxer and Feinstein just introduced a bill to make it illegal to build tunnels under the border (whose trucks are hauling away the dirt on our side? Who owns the houses with the exits? Where are they getting tools, supplies, and concrete?). Too bad minority Democrats have to handle the problem piecemeal. It’d be nice to see some leadership from the President and the GOP Congress.

Posted by: American Pundit at March 26, 2006 9:14 AM
Comment #135933

Sorry about going back to the distortion of Christ just to bash Senator Clinton…

I found this column from Clarance Page of the Chicago Tribune where he said:

“Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) charged that the bill “would literally criminalize the good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself.” Clinton bashers predictably howled at her cheekiness, even though she’s right.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0603260396mar26,1,4254026.column?coll=chi-news-col

I did a quick google check to see if there were a lot of websites dedicated to hating and bashing Mr. Page just so I could be sure… I really didn’t find much.

Now… here is the point… he agrees that something needs to be done. I do too. However, distorting Christ’s mission and message just because of the person who said it is wrong. Legalities, nationalities, ancient systems of political power and control or whatever argument we can try to make so it doesn’t appear so aside. Why split hairs to defend the obvious attempt to distort Christ’s message for a cheap pot shot at Senator Clinton.

Does that lead to a willingness to discuss further? “Well, so and so is a doo-doo head. Now, let’s talk about these things…”

Dear God, people seem to think that they are like pundits, radio personalities or politicans. Folks, they are doing nothing more than trying to exploit difference for ratings or votes… we all get left out.

I say this because I see issues that the two parties are in agreement about… like emminant domain. Democrats have been against if for years because of the governements that move poorer people out of their homes because Wal-Mart or Home Depot can give the government more tax revenue… the Republicans are against it because it is governmental interference with the rights of private ownership.

Do they work togther on this issue? No, because they do not want to acknowledge that the other side believes the same way… which costs them their ability to beat up the opposition in the next election.

Same with immigration, each wants to do something about it… but it turns into I want to do more than them to show a clear difference to the voters. I am right… they are wrong.

Must everything be framed in an “us versus them” mentality. Should people coming together to discuss ways and means of addressing an issue/crisis start off by calling names at each other.

Sadly, probably like my experience here, Mr. Page’s message of agreement will probably get lost.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 26, 2006 9:55 AM
Comment #135936

VEM,

Thanks for the kind words and the excellent posting that started this discussion. Most of the comments confirm that everyone but the wingers have good ideas about how to solve the problem, or at least to reduce it to a manageable level. I would like to reply to your comment that “it makes a lot of sense, which is probably one of the reasons it will never get implemented!”

How do we move from thinking up good ideas to creating centrist political coalitions that will make it possible for them to be implemented? Even the best Senators and Representatives cannot achieve anything if their opponents are determined to prevent their bills from even being honestly debated and voted on in committee.

At some point, centrists need to do more than talk. We need to organize and demonstrate the kind of muscle - what John Kenneth Galbraith called “countervailing power” - that will outweigh the interests holding back reform.

Posted by: Robert Benjamin at March 26, 2006 10:01 AM
Comment #135939
darren7160 wrote: d.a.n, The information is very informative, however, may I ask a few questions concering the study? It would appear to say that of 55,322 randomly selected aliens all committed 13 crimes per person.

No, the GAO Report (9-May-2005) stated that the random study group population was 55,322 illegal aliens that had been arrested one or more times.

Clearly, that does not include all arrested illegal aliens, nor does it include all illegal aliens.

In total, there were actually many more illegal aliens in jails and prisons nation-wide. The 55,322 was only a portion of the total.

In total, those 55,322 illegal aliens in the study group committed 691,890 offenses, averaging 13 offenses per illegal alien:
[a] Number of illegal aliens in the GAO study population: 55,322 .
[b] Total number of arrests: 459,614 .
[c] Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890 .
[d] Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13 .
[e] Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10 .

That does not mean that all illegal aliens commit any crimes (that is, if you exclude the crime of being here illegally, itself). But, it is damning evidence.

But, I know what you are wondering?
The question you want an answer to is:

Do illegal aliens increase the crime rate?

The answer is certainly yes, if you include the crime of being here illegally. That already puts the rate at 1 crime per illegal alien (at the very least).

But, even if you exclude that crime, the answer is still yes.

Why? Because many other crimes are committed (daily). They drive without a drivers license or auto insurance. They can not pay for the damage they do. They use false identification, use falsified IDs, and Social Security numbers, and get paid under the table without paying taxes. If deported, they simply return (some, dozens of times).

Now, even if you exclude all of that, the answer is still yes. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that illegal aliens increase the overall crime rate. For example, many cities (especially in border states) have reported crime waves, largely due to illegal aliens. Take Los Angeles for instance. There is the bloody 18th Street Gang with an estimated membership (in 1995) of over 20,000 (probably doubled in size now, with 60% being illegal aliens), that collaborates with the Mexican Mafia. The Mexican Mafia is also a dominant force in California prisons.

In Los Angeles (in 2004), 95 % of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) are for illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

Crime rates for many large cities in border states have been rising, while crime rates in most northern states have been falling.

Dallas, Phoenix, L.A., San Antonio, Houston, Albequrque, etc. have seen increasing crime rates for many years. L.A. is the best example of the crime wave.

March 19, 2005: Dallas, TX crime rate again tops among largest cities. The city’s crime rate was the highest among nine U.S. cities, including Houston, with more than a million residents for the seventh consecutive year in 2004, according to police statistics.

Also, illegal aliens are released so often, it encourages them to commit more crimes, because they know they can get away with it, over and over.

What’s interesting about many crime rate studies is that there are few that really want to address the issue, because the government refuses to deal with the problem. Without a doubt, unless you exclude the crime of illegal trespass, the crime rate is definitely increased by illegal aliens. But does it really matter? Any crime by an illegal alien is a crime that never should have happened.

But, crime is just one part of many the overall problem, such as the urden bon:


  • education systems

  • healthcare systems

  • hospital systems

  • welfare systems

  • Social Security system

  • Medicaid system

  • border patrol systems

  • insurance systems

  • law enforcement systems

  • prison systems

  • voting systems


_________________________________
Do you know how your Representatives voted on H.R. 4437?
Here’s the final Ayes and Noes.
REPUBLICANS: Ayes=203, Noes=17
DEMOCRATS: Ayes=36, Noes=164
INDEPENDENTS: Ayes=0, Noes=1
TOTALS: Ayes=239 , Noes=182

Seems terribly partisan to me.
Why do many Democrats oppose this when polls show most Americans want it?

Well, regardless, whether anything really comes of it is another thing altogether. Watch the Republicans start to disintegrate when the going gets tough. It seems extremely unlikely our do-nothing, bloated, irresponsible government will suddenly start doing something (that the majority of Americans have wanted for a long time) now.
_________________
Let me say again, I do not hate any one from any nation. This is not about race, nationality, or anything else. I simply do not like, nor feel illegal aliens (no matter where they come from) have a right to burden our healthcare, education, welfare, insurance, law enforcement, Social Security, Medicaid, and prison systems.

The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

THE SOLUTION:
[X] Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)
[X] Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
[X] Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
[X] Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
[X] Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
[X] Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 10:20 AM
Comment #135940
1. Start from zero, by giving a blanket amnesty to any undocumented immigrant who can pass a screen based on weighted criteria. These would include criminal record, length of residency, dependents, a demonstrated willingness to be self-supporting, ties to organizations that are hostile to democratic values, and others TBD. To ensure fairness, take the decisions away from the INS and guarantee qualified legal counsel for every applicant 2. Deport everyone else who does not pass the screen. 3. Make entering the country for the purpose of criminal activity a felony punishable by a long mandatory minimum prison term. 4. Do the same for human trafficking. 5. Seize the personal assets of business owners who show a pattern of flouting laws against employing undocumented workers. Throw some in jail. 6. Renegotiate NAFTA and CAFTA to bar imports from Mexican or Central American suppliers who do not pay a living wage. 7. Encourage Mexican and Central American industries whose labor standards will make staying in oneⳠhome country a much more attractive proposition. American labor unions could do a lot here by investing in such businesses instead of complaining about low cost foreign labor. 8. Build the fence, but do not fool ourselves that it will be enough. We will also need to guard the Gulf Coastline and the Pacific Coastline. 9. Turn off the racist and nativist rhetoric and get rid of Tom Tancredo and his ilk.

Robert Benjamin,
That’s not bad.
I’d prefer that in step 1, these workers, if approved, receive temporary work visas (not citizenship). They can then apply for legal immigration.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 10:25 AM
Comment #135943

Robert Benjamin,
I could not agree with you more about the need for a New Demo-Publican Political Party. However, I would like to offer up the name The Know Something Party in honor of The Know Nothing Party of the Mid-1800’s. For it seems that our Society now has evidence that the Democrat and Republican Loyalists do not use “Common Sense” when listening to their own Party Leaders. And a political party really could use that as a major tool if you know what I mean.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 26, 2006 11:05 AM
Comment #135950

Robert Benjamin, a growing number believe the only way that counterveiling power can come about is through a broad and continued anti-incumbent vote at the polls for a number of back to back election cycles. That would force remaining incumbents and incoming freshman to recognize that the people’s needs and majority will (representing common sense on most issues) are a much higher priority than special interests, political party, and campaign donor’s agendas.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 26, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #135953

David,

I see two problems with a vote-out-all-incumbents approach. First, it seems like a one-solution-fits-all strategy that does not make exceptions for those who have consistently demonstrated independence and integrity above loyalty to their parties or special interests. I cannot help thinking of the reformist French aristocrats who went to the guillotine alongside their counterparts who were unrepentant defenders of the ancien regime.

Second, it assumes a level of anti-incumbent discipline that transcends regional voting patterns and cultures, and other loyalties. If such a movement took off, I think that liberals and centrists would be hurt more at the polls than right-wingers.

My preference would be first to ensure a Democrattic majority in both houses of Congress, then to apply relentless pressure on that new majority to reorganize as a post-Democratic party of national unity. This would mean reaching out to those centrist Republicans who have demonstrated a minimally acceptable degree of independence from their party leadership, and asking them to join.

To be sure, such a movement, if successful, would alienate the most reflexive liberals from the Democratic Party. But it would likely alienate even more those who have done so much to drag the Republican Party to the right.

Neither of those groups would be likely to form an alliance to frustrate the will of the true majority of Americans. Either way, the wingers of both right and left would lose a good deal of their power to corrupt our politics.

Posted by: Robert Benjamin at March 26, 2006 12:31 PM
Comment #135954

Darren, thank you for the intelligent and prolific reply. Your business degree was well represented in the reply and it is appreciated.

Point 1) you said: “His point was, that these rights were universal to all men from God. Not based upon legal status, religion, geography or method of governing (dictatorship, theocracy or any other form).”

I think you completely miss the meaning of his point. Not his meaning, but, the consequential meaning. For you see, if equality is up to Bush’s god, and equality for al-Queda is up to their interpretation of their god, what you have is cultural and religious wars! Something both gods regard as undesireable but defend by actions of wrath by both gods.

Our founding fathers used the colloquilisms of their day to make the point, NOT that equality is inherent in each human being, but, that in the eyes of the LAW, each human is to be treated equally. The LAW is not to favor the monarch above the serfs. That was clearly their intent, completely and hopelessly lost on President Bush, as he holds citizens to the law, illegal immigrants to the law, but excepts himself from the law. Afterall, his god gave him the mission to justify his being exempt from nation’s laws if need be. (e.g. NSA spying, Geneva Conventions discarded, perpetual imprisonment without due process, etc.)

On the veggie and fruit pickers, something you may not be familiar with is the history of farms in America that are legally mandated to minimum wages. Where this occured, and there are many chapters of this, farmers industrialized their picking creating industrial and machine maintenance jobs to replace human picker labor. That is what would happen if American farmers were forced to abide by our minimum wage laws. They would over time replace human labor which is less efficient at a higher cost, with mechanized production which would be more efficient at a lower cost. Though you may not be familiar with the historical facts of the farmer labor movement, I think you would agree that these market forces would play in if we actually enforced our labor and immigration laws.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 26, 2006 12:38 PM
Comment #135955

Robert, the anti-incumbent movement would NOT need to be either universal, nor represent a majority of voters. I think you assume by anti-incumbent movement, that I refer to Democrats voting against Democrats and Republicans voting against Republicans, or that voters vote out incumbents whose votes demonstrate that their alleigance is to the nation (federal office) first, their constituents second, and all others last. That is not what is said nor is it even necessary. Democrats can vote for challenger democrats in the primaries to move the anti-incumbent movement forward without acting against their political philosophy, and the same with Republicans.

Rather than explain here at length, here is a link to an article that explains how the changes we seek can occur using the Power of Small Numbers.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 26, 2006 12:46 PM
Comment #135957

David,
I agree that it is very tricky to include reilgous justification into determining what should be done in society for just the reasons you said. For me, it is a set of morals and standards that I try to apply in my life and if I do it and others do it then we don’t need Politicans, Mullahs or Televangilists telling us what we should believe or do.

d.a.n.,
Aren’t you aware that politicans shouldn’t determine their actions of policy on polls? That polls are meaningless? At least that is what I am always hearing about polls from my Republican and Conservative friends here.

To all,
Yes, let’s deal with the situation. Again though… I will not demonize these people, many who were my friends when I lived in CA.

I don’t need someone to scare me, manipulate my emotions, stir my patriotism, incense my outrage. I don’t need to be rallied to the point of wanting blood or feeling it necessary to describe a woman having a child as “squirting” out another one.

I will not allow myself to be desensitized to the fact that there are human beings we are talking about.

Please, the Jews in Germany were determined to be illegal for many reasons…
http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/nurmlaw2.html

I just don’t want to see cattle cars lined up filled with people as we once again write another sad chapter in our American history.

In the end… I would like to one day be teaching history in school, open the chapter to this time and issue and be proud of how we behaved. I would rather not use some of the rhetoric being passed around as Americans intellgently working towards a solution.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 26, 2006 1:33 PM
Comment #135958

Robert Benjamin,
I understand your question and assertion. It is a frequent one.

Respectfully, VOID does not mean vote out all incumbents.
VOID really means vote out all irresponsible incumbents.
Having said that, do you know any responsible incumbents?

If so, could you please list them.

Give us 10 names. Give us 20, 50, 100, or 268 (half) of the 565 in Congress.

Do you really know? Have you researched our Congress persons? If not, then how do you know? Do you believe at least 268 are responsible and accountable? It appears not.

But, before you give some names, you may want to first check (e.g. see cagw.org) to see if they are fond of pork-barrel. Then check their voting record (e.g. see www.issues2000.org). You may be very surprised. What they say and do are not always the same thing. Also, would you say they fuel the petty partisan warfare?

But the question and issue you raise is exactly what politicians are hoping for. They are relying on voters to believe the myth that: They can’t all be bad. What about the good ones?

The obvious question that follows, that no one, for many months has been aboe to answer yet, is:

_________ What good politicians? ___________

The chances of voting out a good politician is almost as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. OK, maybe not that bad. But, let’s suppose for a moment that you are correct. Who is it that has a record of being responsible and accountable? Who in Congress has not voted for pork-barrel?
Who in Congress rejects or voted against their greedy, unfair, cu$hy retirement perk$ far superior to those of the tax payers that fund them?
Who in Congress rejects money from big-money-donors?
Who in Congress rejects soft money?
Who in Congress truly promotes campaign finance reform?
Who in Congress has not looked the other way?
Who in Congress is really a responsible person, because I think they would stand out drastically and unmistakably apart from the likes of the rest in Congress?

What’s that telling you?
It is disturbing in several ways.
The level of corruption, the tenacity of the status quo,
and the number of people who accept it (and empower it).

So, if there are any good politicians, let’s keep them.
Let’s find out who they are.
They ought to stick out like a bloody, sore thumb.

More to the point you raised, the real solution is for all voters to simply start doing, always, the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, inexpensive, safe, peaceful, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:

Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

That’s all. It’s not as complicated as many want to make it. That is the only thing that will truly ever work. That is what voters were supposed to do. Some day voters may figure it out, and stop allowing themselves to be brainwashed, tricked, distracted, and seduced into the petty partisan warfare.

Also, please see the following link (Power in Small Numbers). Many elections are won by only a few percent of voters, and a smaller percent of all eligible voters. So, only a small percentage of voters could drastically change the political landscape. That would have many benefits, if accomplished. For one thing, it would reduce the predictability enjoyed by big-money-donors and their bought-and-paid-for incumbents.

Now, granted, it may be a while before voters do it.
Unfortunately, pain is a lagging indicator of bad government decisions.
The pain will come, but it takes years (sometimes decades).
The long ignored illegal immigration problem is a prime example (as is the National Debt, and these other pressing problems).
There will someday be consequences for governments’ irresponsibility, and the pain will then drive voters to demand reform. They will (as in 1958, 1978, 1980, 1992) vote out a bunch of incumbents, and some improvement may follow. Unfortunately, it is always temporary, since voters quickly forget they need to always vote out irresponsible incumbents, always, every election. And, some recalls may be in order too. It’s up to the voters, because irresponsible incumbents will never reform themselves.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 1:36 PM
Comment #135959

AP,

The President predictably has been silent on a subject that could use his leadership, that is if he had and leadership abilities to call upon. The Democrat as per their usual course, are not putting fourth anything that looks like a plan, although Sen. Edward K. came close this morning on Face The Nation. In light of the march this weekend in LA, it will be interesting to see where this debate goes.

Robert B.

Dan and David R. have the right idea when they state that we have to take back our government by voting out those individuals who put their own interests above those of the people. In other words vote the bums out! Incumbents might actually remember that they work for us.

On the other hand I don’t know if putting the Democrats back in power is a step in the right direction unless and until they can show some modicum of leadership skills. The coutry is still holding it collective breath waiting for the Democrat’s plan for moving the nation forward in a way that pays homage to founding principles of this nation.

But, I also agree that we (centrists) need to organize at the grassroots level and become a force that needs to be taken seriously. And run for office ourselves; I am giving serious consideration to running against Dennis Hastert in 2008; yes I have the dubious honor of having that man represent me in Congress!

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 26, 2006 1:39 PM
Comment #135960
Darren7160 wrote: d.a.n., Aren’t you aware that politicans shouldn’t determine their actions of policy on polls? That polls are meaningless? At least that is what I am always hearing about polls from my Republican and Conservative friends here.
: )

Polls can be a useful and valuable measurement.
They should be carefully scrutinized.
But, facts should exist to subtantiate the polls.
Also, the time period can give credence to the poll, when the polls, year-after-year, yield the same results.
Polls should not be ignored or relied upon entirely. Like everything, it’s wise to look at things from all angles.

Regarding the illegal alien issue, it may not be practical or compassionate to deport 27 million illegal aliens.
Deporting them all will be very difficult (maybe impossible).
That’s why politicians are thinking guest-worker permits.

The most practical thing to do is probably to grant guest-work-permits to those already here, and then do the following too:
_________________________________
[] Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)
[] Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
[] Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
[] Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
[] Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
[] Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
[] Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
[] Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.
________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 1:47 PM
Comment #135966

JAY
In John 19:13 the Jews told Pilate that if he let Jesus go that he was no friend of Caesar’s. While this wasn’t an outright threat of violence, if it had gotten to Caesar that Pilate wasn’t his friend, Ceasar would’ve had him killed. So by saying that it was a veiled threat against Pilate.
If he didn’t kill Jesus then word could get to Caesar that Pilate wasn’t his friend. Therefore a possible enemy.

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 26, 2006 2:17 PM
Comment #135968

BillS
Amnesty been given two or three times now. The problem still isn’t solved. How many more times does it have to be given to solve the problem? Where do we draw the line and say no more?
If the only thing you have to do to get to be legal in this country is get here and wait for another amnesty to be given, how will this solve anything? Don’t you think this would encourage more illegals to come?

Posted by: Ron Brown at March 26, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #135973

good to see goodkingned back on . bills i assume your talking about the rich people and your right.there are the worst they exploit the workers always have and always will .ive done ok for myself like i said i wash my cars .clean my house. clean my pool. do the yard work. i could hire it out i have but they just dont do a good job. the gardners have to do about 25 houses a day same with the pool guys it is not there fault. overworked underpaid. el hefe or gringo makes the bucks, they also exploit there own people they also have a class system thats worse than ours! nothing new here take advantage of the little guy. we had power when the unions were strong i put 18 years in the union i worked for 10 with my father . darren was right. my dad sold out in 1986 because no more union contracts they shut him out. and the labor force has gone to hell since! by the way our pension plan is very strong they invested wisely and for the future. the union is still there but it is but a fraction of what it was!

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at March 26, 2006 3:06 PM
Comment #135979

Just a comment that doesn’t seem to have been brought up here, but changes need to be made with the I.N.S. They, like F.E.M.A. have lost a lot of clout, and are just lost in actuality under the umbrella of Homeland Security.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 26, 2006 3:38 PM
Comment #135980

Sandra Davidson,

Yes, I.N.S. is dysfunctional and has been for a long time. It reflects how much importance government places on certain things.

We can build the best weapons in the world, but we can’t even deal adequately with a hurricane or illegal immigration.

Government ignores the people.

By the time the people get sufficiently fed-up, the problem is huge, and government always has egg all over its face. History repeats itself.

While government is culpable, voters are too for allowing it.

That’s why we need to start voting out all irresponsible incumbents, always.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 3:49 PM
Comment #135983

The issue for me isn’t about illegal immigration. It is about LEGAL immigration. All of the immigrants: Mexicans, Bolivians, Arabs, Purple and pink polk-a-dotted people, whoever … you are OK if you are a LEGAL immigrant. My grandparents had to sail into Ellis Island to work on this soil. We do need more immigration in my opinion, especially since the baby boomers are retiring and my generation is not producing enough babies to keep up.

But, saying the lawmakers who want to put up walls and send illegals back are paranoid of the Mexicans and other Latinos is mostly wrong (mostly - some are paranoid). The issue is not that they are mostly from Mexico, it is the fact that they came here illegally. THAT IS THE ISSUE. ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT THE SAME. Does anyone have any figures on the number of illegal immigrants in the US in the 20th century?

Posted by: Steve Chernoski at March 26, 2006 4:01 PM
Comment #135986

Steve Chernoski,
The number of illegal aliens is about 28 million.

For some, it may be race, xenophobia, what ever.

For me, it is this:

  • increased crime rates is just one is part of the overall problem, such as the severe burden on the things below:
  • education systems
  • healthcare systems
  • hospital systems
  • welfare systems
  • Social Security system
  • Medicaid system
  • border patrol systems
  • insurance systems
  • law enforcement systems
  • prison systems
  • voting systems
Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 4:16 PM
Comment #135991

The wording of my last post may have been confusing.

Immigration needs to be encouraged in order for our economy to survive. How will we fill all of the jobs when the baby boomers retire? Our current population isn’t producing enough offspring to support our enormous economy.

That being said, I strongly agree ILLEGAL immigration should be discouraged. I have no qualms about that. Build walls 15 ft. high, I don’t care and am willing to support it with my taxes.

However, what I asked was what were the numbers on illegal immigration in the 20th century, so we can compare the statistics from then to now and look at trends.

Posted by: Steve C. at March 26, 2006 5:53 PM
Comment #135997

Immigration 1900 to 1990

Legal Immigration from 1821 to 2000.

The rate is higher now than anytime since 1921.

And, you might find this animation of the gender ratios from 1790 to 1990 also.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2006 6:43 PM
Comment #136007

I’m going to throw out my opinion here, it isn’t going to be well liked or most likely not liked by anyone at all but its mine its unique and would get the job done.

The topic of the Romans has been brought up this is an offshoot of that. I would say lets get rid of the hassle of the long process to legalize a prospective citizen. The roman empire had a nice easy way to join, i would suggest a fix that way. If one wants to enter the country and be a producitve citizen, wants free health care, wants all that we can give them, then they should in return give us an amount of time in service to this country. Yes i said it, serve say 2-4 years of military service and earn one’s citizenship. I’m not talking about handing them a rifle and shipping them off to a foreign coast, more of the take the ASVAB get a job in the military, do their job, learn our customs and how america, well the spirit of how america works. in return they learn job skills, learn our national language, and exit repspecting the nation, and having talents to help this country rather than leech off of it.

I’m sure this is the most contriversial idea put out as of yet, but as i have said this is my personal belief Now let me get my marshmellows out and a pack of hotdogs cause i know the flames are going to be hot.

Posted by: RHancheck at March 26, 2006 8:29 PM
Comment #136010

dan,
Alarm systems and locks and all that arent really worth my time, because I don’t own things worth stealing. More importantly, if someone wants something in my house, they can get in, no lock or security system is going to stop someone from kicking in my door or picking my lock. Regardless, I spend a lot of time in Baltimore, it’s one of the most dangerous cities in the country, and I understand what you are saying, but walking around in fear isn’t really my perogative.

More importantly, the real problem with our current situation is that becoming a citizen is extremely difficult, and more importantly, expensive. Our economy depends on a large availible workforce, and immigration is a great way of maintaining our workforce, something that will be entirely necessary with an aging workforce.

Posted by: iandanger at March 26, 2006 9:39 PM
Comment #136020

RHancheck,
Although I would recommend a Community Work Program (CWP) instead of the military as a matter of National Security, the idea that many of Citizens that do not have direct ties to the Founding Fathers of America means that “We the People” need to start Teaching about the American Spirit so that others may see How, Why, and Where The Founding Fathers split The Eagles of The Law in order that what is Right & True can be Discovered through Common Sense and Common Knowledge.

Yes, America has a hard battle to fight over this issue; however, I do fear that the Democrats and Republicans will once again sale out to the Corporation if “We the People” do not keep their feet to the fire. Nevertheless, a full and complete (even if temp) shut down of All Immigration into the Country must be made until Congress & The White House provides an Economic Plan that will see the 11 Million or so not added to the ranks of those citizens already living at the projected Poverty Level in the next 10-15 years. Anything else IMHO is shotting ourselve in the foot is it not?

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 27, 2006 12:11 AM
Comment #136051
Our economy depends on a large availible workforce, Posted by: iandanger at March 26, 2006 09:39 PM
Our economy depends upon a consumerist middle class. Low wage immigrants only provide a hedge against inflation and improve the life styles of the middle class and the profits of offending businesses. The local financial and criminal burdens are minor compared to the country as a whole. Posted by: Dave at March 27, 2006 9:12 AM
Comment #136089

And the debate continues which can only be healthy for the country in the long run. My fear is that the more conservative faction of the Republican Party will win in the short term, causing a bill to come out Congress that is only about enforcement, or the bill will stale and not get passed at all.

What we need is a moderate Bill that seeks to step up enforcement but also recognizes that some sort of expanded gust worker program needs to be instituted.

Washington Post Article on Subject

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at March 27, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #136099
Our economy depends upon a consumerist middle class. Low wage immigrants only provide a hedge against inflation and improve the life styles of the middle class and the profits of offending businesses. The local financial and criminal burdens are minor compared to the country as a whole.
Dave,

Yes. And, the cost of illegal immigration to American citizens actually outweighs the benefits. As of Sep-2004, illegal alien criminals fill a whopping 29 percent of the population of U.S. state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (and few of that total are imprisoned for illegal immigraiton alone). In the GAO Report of FBI data (9-May-2005) with a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens, there were 5,992 offenses of homicide. Many of those were multiple homicides by one person. So, the total cost is hard to measure as David R. Remer pointed out. But, crime is just a portion of the many issues. And, none of the important issues have anything to do with what some try to use to cloud the issues. It has nothing to do with race, nationality, color, religion, etc.

Also, if there actually was an overall benefit to massive, unregulated, illegal immigration, there would unlikely be so many American citizens opposed to it.

In addition, the rights of illegal aliens that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border. The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited.

The many reasons have nothing to do with race (i.e. not by me and many other people). The following are sufficient understand the negative impact of massive, unregulated, illegal immigration:


  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

iandanger wrote: I understand what you are saying, but walking around in fear isn’t really my perogative.

Thanks. We also do not walk around in fear either. But, it is only common sense to avoid walking around in some places at certain times.

iandanger wrote: Alarm systems and locks and all that arent really worth my time, because I don’t own things worth stealing …

iandanger,
(interesting name) Well, I have a wife and children (now grown). So, their protection is important too. You may have been lucky if you have never been a victim of crime (never had your car broken into, never been burglarized, etc.). I know few people that have never been a victim of those types of theft. So, there is wise take reasonable measures to make ourselves and families more safe. And, if someone tries to illegally enter our home (while we are home), the procedure is shoot-to-kill. Also, sadly, women and children are preyed upon a lot, and the dangers are worse for them. Therefore, common-sense is advisable. We don’t have to walk about in constant fear, but we shouldn’t be foolish either.

At any rate, the entire cost of illegal immigration is not fully known, but several studies show that cheap labor ain’t so cheap after all.

Those that support illegal immigration do not want to address the issues above. Why is that? Why do they prefer to turn it into an issue of race, nationality, color, etc. It would behoove proponents to do some research to prove the benefits outweigh the costs.

Now, we could talk about the philosophical differences.
Some beleive there should be no borders anywhere on the planet.
Well, unfortunately, we don’t live in Utopia.
Many societies have created many systems for their citizens.
Those systems (e.g. education, hospitals, welfare, healthcare, etc.), without reliable identity and law enforcement can be protected. Also, many studies show that massive, unregulated, illegal immigration creates burdens on abused systems, increases crime, chaos, and societal disorder. And, after everything is thoroughly messed up for everyone, they all seek a new place to overrun.

So, it is a serious societal problem. It is also often a result of dysfunction and corruption in the nation(s) that are the source of illegal immigrants.

VEM,
Yes, I fear we’ll get some watered down BILL, or that problem will still go ignored. Neither or both would surprise me. Hmmmmm … wonder why that is?

At any rate, controlled, legal immigration is good.
Uncontrolled, illegal immigration is bad.

Here’s an interesting chart. Aside from the fact that 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens, the chart, with some exceptions, seems to show the crime rates in certain states to be higher than others. Why is crime higher in the south ?

Posted by: d.a.n at March 27, 2006 1:17 PM
Comment #136100

OK, any American that criticizes immigration laws now is patronized as “xenophobic” and even “racist.” There are even a good amount of African Americans in these Minutemen groups protesting as well. Again, the demonstrators now are missing the point: The illegals are NOT like the past immigrants who came into Ellis Island legally. Many new immigrants from Mexico came here illegally. Here is a quote that totally misses the point.

“We construct your schools. We cook your food,” rapper Jorge Ruiz said after performing at a Dallas rally that drew 1,500. “We are the motor of this nation, but people don’t see us. Blacks and whites, they had their revolution. They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us.

Have the revolution for the legals, fine. The fact that the illegals don’t take any responsibility for their breaking of laws is shameful. However, I even believe that more shame should be placed on all of the business owners who hired illegals, driving wages down.

Posted by: Steve C. at March 27, 2006 1:20 PM
Comment #136124

Steve C.
Good point about those that hire illegal aliens.
Think about it.
How greedy is it to lure people here, illegally, for sub-minimum wage jobs, despite the many dangers along the way?
Yes, some stiff penalties are needed for those that employer illegal aliens.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 27, 2006 3:17 PM
Comment #136249

RHancheck, its an idea with merit. But, an army of many different language speakers not yet well versed in English could cost many lives in our military. Find a provision where there military service occured after they have learned english and the idea’s merits increase significantly.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 27, 2006 11:51 PM
Comment #136251

Sen. Jon Kyl (R) put forth an amendment today stipulating that guest worker visas be granted to immigrants for American jobs UNTIL the unemployment rate hits 11%, then they would stop issuing the immigrant work visas.

Can you believe he actually wants to see 11% unemployment BEFORE we stop handing out jobs to immigrants. Sorry, folks, but, some of these Republicans will continue to favor the Business-Cheap immigrant labor over American citizen jobs. That is not acceptable.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 27, 2006 11:56 PM
Comment #136258

I hate to disagree with the initial post, wait, no I don’t. But this isn’t something Rep’s are uniform on. Many of us see the advantages to specialization of the global work force and free movement between countries. This is an issue that the nation-state is ill-equipped to manage. The nation-state should not be something we reify.

Why reify the nation-state?

Although there is some dispute, the most recognized date of origin for the nation-state is 1648. The Treaty of Westphalia, which ended the 30-year war, established recognition of borders for the United Provinces and the Swiss Confederation. Since that time the world has been divided into roughly 190 sizable nation-states, and a much greater number of micro-states. Both the current international political order and US domestic policies have reified the nation-state as the only possible political subdivision and has attributed a holy significance to what it means to be an “American” or any other national affiliation. But the question should be begged, why do we place such special significance in the artificial lines that have delineated peoples for so long and why are we trapped in the mindset that there are us, within the borders, and them, outside the borders?

Sir Walter Raleigh argued that “[n]ationalism is the virtue of the vicious,” but why do recognized borders define who we are, who our enemies are and what we can and cannot do? National borders were born out of the conflict of ever expanding empires that needed to draw a line in the sand in order to prevent future wars for territory. The nation-state was born from, and is inextricably linked to the concept of empirical expansion and domination. The emperors needed to know who their subjects were and who their competition was. With the growth in number and power of empires, the luxury of extended dominion over endless populations was traded for the luxury of creating a stable, but smaller population of subjects. Knowing where the nation-state comes from however doesn’t explain why we have defined ourselves by these borders.

The modern nation was created by the unification of various people into a common society or community for the benefit of the rulers of that society. However, in the late 18th century a social revolution was started that persists today: Democracy. Democracies do not retain a set of established rulers, rather the people rule through representatives. Even if modern democracies are not pure, they do create a paradox. If nationality was created so that groups of people would associate with, and work for their monarchs/emperors, what purpose does national association serve in a functioning democracy where the leaders are a reflection of the public?

Because of the short-term nature of the leadership in democracies, the promotion of rampant nationalism has taken an accelerated course. That is because leaders need to assume the highest level of loyalty as quickly as possible, knowing that their terms are short. Nationalism becomes a tool of party politics and partisan goals. Although most people would probably argue that this justification is not worthy of the pride people take in their nationality, it has become the primary drive of nationalism in the modern world. While it is easy to understand why national association benefits monarchs and emperors, and then elected leaders, it is difficult to see what long-term benefit it holds for public.

Association with others brings feelings of closeness and understanding and national affiliation is one way to bring that association about. Placing the power of loyalty in the nation-state limits the types of organizational solutions available to regional and global problems. Limiting institutional solutions to the boundaries of the nation-state can also create conflict between groups of people that share ethnic or religious ties (think South America, Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, etc). So if the nation-state creates artificial divisions and limits the ability of people to respond to shared problems, what alternative is there?

The fact that the current boundaries of the majority of countries have been set for the last half of a century has helped reify those boundaries in the minds of the public. People complain about the inability of their country to address regional problems such as immigration, developmental disparity between bordering countries, outsourcing, terrorism, etc, but few consider the possibility that the nation-state may be ill equipped to deal with these international-oriented problems.

Beyond the nation-state exist international governmental bodies and regional governmental bodies. These organizations can largely be broken down into three categories: trade, security and functional coordination. Much less powerful than the nation-state because these organizations do not have direct authority over the populations within its range of action, and cannot directly tax or police the public that it serves. These organizations are largely formed to serve the nation-state members, not the public citizenry within those nation-states. There are a large number of non-governmental organizations that seek to directly serve an international citizenry, but these NGOs (Non-Governmental Organizations) are often weak and ineffectual because they have no authority and derive their power from cooperation of individuals. Moreover, the NGOs do not attempt to imitate the nation-state in the area of creating an identity, which will motivate people to act on its behalf. Many NGOs are global in nature and therefore they try to break down the us-them dynamic rather then to perpetuate a new one. Although noble, the lack of a new identity with defined boundaries may be what sabotages many of the NGOs efforts. So if the nation-state can inspire loyalty and devotion but is often ill-equipped to tackle real problems, and the current international organizations are able to expand beyond national borders to take a more global view of issues, but lack the ability to affect any real change, are there other options?

With the adoption of the US constitution in 1786 the founders also adopted the idea of separation of powers. A federal government with limited and enumerated powers, to regulate specific spheres of activity, and the state governments, which would retain all remaining power to use in a manner responsive to their respective populations. The dream was that the federal government would regulate national security and external trade, activities that any individual state was ill-equipped to handle, and the states would regulate all other activities in a manner consistent local traditions and cultures. The separation of powers has slowly been removed over the last two hundred and twenty years and now remains a federal government that possesses a far greater power than it was intended to and state governments that are unable to develop according to local laws and customs. Although the original experiment, in regards to separation of power, has failed, the need remains for larger bodies with limited power to address very specific problems with enumerated powers.

Far from the removed IGOs and RGOs (Regional Governmental Organizations) of today, something akin to representative organizations are needed to respond to regional problems; organizations that draw their powers from the populations that they serve and are accountable to those same populations. Organizations that can help forge new identities and inspire some of the loyalty and devotion that nation-states do, but in an issue-area specific manner. To put it in perspective, imagine that the state would be responsible for providing the laws and organizations that are culture specific, the federal government is responsible for facilitating trade and coordinating interstate commerce and law and raising and maintaining the military, and the regional organizations would be responsible for coordinating environmental laws, coordinating military operations, instituting disease control and immigration, etc. Each government is a body to regulate the problems that exist on that level.

The fear of ever-growing governments that destroy culture is a valid concern, especially in the light of the breakdown of the separation of powers in the US. Stronger safeguards would have to be put in place to protect local cultures and the prevention of accumulation of power into fewer hands. The goal of regional organizational government would be to divest power into more hands, each with very specified powers and obligations, not concentrate it into few hands. Although the logistical problems would require another few hundred pages, the conception of regional identity can be captured in the abstract.

In today’s world people conceive of themselves with several identities: a scholar with loyalty to a school, a member of state with devotion to the traditions of that state, a member of a small region (the South, the Midwest, etc), and a member of the nation-state (American). The addition of a larger identity, for example: Confederated America’s Security Organization, or the Pacific-North American Environmental Union, are fully within the realm of self-identification. These organizations would levy taxes, be run by elected officials from the regulated areas and would be supreme in their regulation of their issue specific areas. Nationalism could become issue area specific. The same loyalty and devotion that the nation-state currently demands could be divided into the proper spheres of responsibility, just as we do in our personal lives all the time. Our social loyalty are divided between gender lines, school affiliation or religious beliefs in any given context and can be shifted when the context changes; the same could occur in a regional context.
Rather than reify the nation-state, perhaps we should recognize that it serves very specific needs and restructure the nation-state in order to better serve those needs, then create new properly scaled structures to properly address each issue in the manner than it requires. By reifying the nation-state we have pre-empted the possibility of larger bodies that draw their power from the people and are answerable to the people. Currently, these organizations answer only to the nation-state and not the people. By removing the national devotion to the nation-state we can reassign that loyalty to a body that is properly sized and enumerated with the proper powers for each issue area.

-Xander Jones

Posted by: Xander Jones at March 28, 2006 12:21 AM
Comment #136266

Xander Jones,
The way that I undertand the argument over the need for Nation-State is to protect you and your family against the most Rapitalistic among Men. Thus, the job of the Nation-State is to draw a fence long and high enough to allow you and your family the unalienable Right to consume in peace while keeping at bay the forces in Human Nature that if released could allow some fool to attempt to play “God.”

However, instead of the Nation-State argument in the 60’s; Today, America and Humanity’s Civilizations of Law is facing the same problem with many Corporations wanting to tell Us what to eat, drink, and think. So what is the difference? How can the Beast “I the Corporation” think that they are “God?”

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 28, 2006 1:21 AM
Comment #136271

Xander Jones asked: “but why do recognized borders define who we are,”

The answer is simple. Unlimited demand and limited resources. That is it in a nut shell and there is no escaping it, for it is the very root definition of economics. If the US attempted to equalize resources and demand throughout the world, the citizens within the borders of the U.S. would have to sacrifice dearly and for a very long protracted period of time.

So, the answer is quite simple. Sir Walter Raliegh wasn’t wrong, but, there is no escaping this situation until we have food and product replicators at no cost as found on the U.S.S. Enterprise in Star Trek movies.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 28, 2006 1:34 AM
Comment #136272

Henry,
I think that is a red herring and the issue really is the nation-state and control over one’s population and the zero-sum effect of nation-state politics. Immigration is an issue that is region/globabl in nature and cannot be appropriately addressed by any single nation-state.

Xander
http://rightbrained-fta.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Xander Jones at March 28, 2006 1:34 AM
Comment #136273

David,

There is nothing permanent or inevitable about the nation-state or the current number/structure of governmental institutions in the system. Moreover, its open to change with those with the means to forge new institutions.

Xander

Posted by: Xander Jones at March 28, 2006 1:38 AM
Comment #136276

If no nations could regulate immigration, then massive numbers of people would always descend upon places where things are good, until it is all used up, and move on to the next place. It is just simple common sense. Massive illegal immigration creates chaos and societal disorder, to the point that we are all losers.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 1:47 AM
Comment #136277

Nation-States and borders, if properly secured, can prevent that type of societal disorder.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 1:51 AM
Comment #136306

Mr. Martin, please send me an updated email link for you. I have 2 addresses but they both come through mail daemon. Thanks.

Posted by: Watchblog Managing Editor at March 28, 2006 9:13 AM
Comment #136308

Xander Jones,
The Rapitalistic Nature of Man has been around every since a Human diceded that his/her share did not have to come from the ground but by the labor of others. Oppression and Appeasement is still taught as the way to control the Masses from consuming the entire Kingdom. Immigration among Humans was because that unbridled lust for more must be controled in a Society that has “Limited Resources;” hence, that is why Gold is the standard for money.

No, the Ancient Ones were right when they said it was easier to destory than create; however, it is the Youth of the 21st Century that can change the Hate of their Parents into real change by addressing the fears used by others to control and gain power for their own good and not that of “We the Consumers” building an Unlimited Sustainable Global Economy.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 28, 2006 9:21 AM
Comment #136330
illegal alien criminals fill a whopping 29 percent of the population of U.S. state and federal prisons are illegal aliens

Posted by: d.a.n at March 27, 2006 01:17 PM


d.a.n.
Your link goes to web page blocked by my coporate IT as “Hate and Racism”. If you find supporting data you might still convince me. By support I mean official statistics from official sites. Not bloggers, pundits, etc… I wasn’t able to find any.

Posted by: Dave at March 28, 2006 10:54 AM
Comment #136362

Dave,
I should have linked to the original article by Frosty Wooldridge. I don’t vouch for the site that had a copy of the article. But, Frosty Wooldridge has been researching the issue for years, and I don’t think his issues have anything to do with race.
Also, see the GAO Report. That is from FBI data.

Thanks for the heads up. The last thing I want to do is turn this into a race issue.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 12:47 PM
Comment #136364

Dave,

I sent an E-Mail to Frosty to provide his source for the 29% figure. However, if you look at the FBI data, and the crime statistics for the 55,322 study group, it’s not hard to believe.
But, I agree, all the facts should be verified.

Also, for me, none of this has anything to do with race, nationality, etc.

And, I’m not really interested in deporting illegal aliens that are already here. There aer too many. I’d simply like the borders and ports secured, and the massive illegal immigration stopped, and I don’t think it would be as difficult or as expensive as some say.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 1:06 PM
Comment #136373

D.A.N,
Like most Americans, I do believe that after 9/11 it is in our National Security and Common Defense that we reel in “I the Corporation” and start addressing how and why “We the People” need to talk about “The Better World” of Our Parents & Elders of the 70’s. True, they have completed the task of changing America from an Industrail based economy to a service driven economy, but if my mind is thinking right, the other part of that promise was a Renewable Personal Energy Source and the technology to start to build an “Unlimited Sustainable Society.”

However, if one is to look around the Tools are there for our choosing. Yet, because of some in America & Congress refusing to address the issue head on and President Bush is using the War in Iraq as cover for helping eliminating a Middle-East Revolution over the lack of jobs and the ability to consume properly by many who are “Poor.” Which is also the same argument over having Illegal Aliens fill jobs that Americans won’t do.

Now Congress has the ability to set the Record straight by producing a Law (i.e. U.S. Code of Rukes and Regulations) in a manner that when read by the Average American Layman the Intent of the Law is designed to address the issues that face America and offer an Unalienable Right Way to go as America’s Society grows and expands Our Wings of Justice. What else can “We the People” ask from Our Elected Officals?

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 28, 2006 1:37 PM
Comment #136378

Dave,

Frosty Wooldridge responded very quickly.
The 29% figure came from the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington D.C.

In addition, the cost to tax payers is $1.6 billion annually.

I will try to get you more supporting data.
But, remember, crime is only part of the problem.
The following are important issues too:


  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

But, government will never address such problems until voters do their part too, and peacefully force government to be responsible too.
___________________
Henry Schlatman,
I’ve studied and analyzed this for years.
The only solution I believe has a chance is eduction, to understand the problem, and thereby, understand the solution.

The Problem and the Solution.

As you say, law enforcement is a huge part of it. It, like most things, falls into the six fundamental components. A successful society needs a sufficient amount of each. Otherwise, corruption always grows.

Henry, you and I, unlike many, approach these things based on core, fundamental, root causes. Mine is a bit more raw. To me, all things are driven by human factors. To me, we need to understand these human factors, and be careful to design our systems to account for them. That is why Transparency is so important. But, all of the six components are important.

The biggest threat to any nation is the lack of Education, Transparency, Accountability, and Responsibility.

Responsibility = Power + Education + Transparency + Accountability
Corruption = Power - Education - Transparency - Accountability

People seek security and prosperity with the least effor and pain. Some will get it unethically and/or illegally. Power exacerbates the problem.
Laziness is a natural human trait, but it is immoral to surrender to it completely.

Too much laziness is truly at the very fundamental root cause of most of our problems.

We are all culpable (voters and politicians).
But, since bought-and-paid-for politicians will never allow newcomers to pass any badly-needed, common-sense reforms, it is now up to the voters to do what they were supposed to be doing all along: vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbent politicians, always.
Voters still have the right to vote (at the moment). They must start using it more wisely, or keep learning the hard, painful way.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 1:53 PM
Comment #136407

D.A.N,
I did once upon a time tell a State Senator how the Voters could take a shot right across the bow of our Political System in America and get away with it. Funny thing, that was in the early 90’s and the issue was over Homelessness and Low Income Housing. Yet, I can only wonder if that is why Congress and the Democrats placed so much on improving the economy. However, given that today 62% of Americans believe that America is headed in the wrong direction, I am starting to believe that a complete recall of every state general assembly one by one based on the question; “Is Our Government building a Better Society?” would gain the attention of The Elders and Powers-that-Be that “We the People” are ready to deal Social Justice to the questions that the Youth of the 60;s were scared to address and answer.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 28, 2006 3:12 PM
Comment #136411


Yes, the polls don’t look good.
While I wouldn’t draw any conclusions on polls alone, the other factors are hard to ignore.
And interest rates just went up again.
Foreclosures continue to increase for the last 14 months.
Bankruptcies are on the rise.
%Debt to GDP has never been higher since WWII (68%, up from 33% in 1980).
The $8.3 trillion debt has never been larger (quadruple what it was after WWII).
Trade deficits are at records level highs.
Inflation is on the rise.
350,000 jobs have been lost since 2000.

We’re not going to implode or explode, but there will be consequences for 3 decades of fiscal irresponsibility. The next recession may not be easy to recover from.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 3:26 PM
Comment #136418

That is why I would like to have a political party that was not afriad to teach their followers what it means to be Politically Unalienable Correct in their Debate over the Issues. Because while I do not say we can buld a “Perfect World,” I do know that the Youth of the 21st Century can build a “Better World” than that of Our Parents. In fact, if “We the People” have the faith and courage in the Spirit of America and The Law of the Land that She represents than these next few years in Politics and World Diplomacy is going to be fun.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at March 28, 2006 3:45 PM
Comment #136438

d.a.n

I visited the CIS site, it definately has an anti-immigration agenda. So I gave it’s data some scrutiny. Also, I perused the GAO report and the data isn’t so clear when combined with other studies.

(a) 27% of Federal inmates are illegals.
(b) There are a total of appx 12 million people incarcerated each year in all prison levels.
(c) Including Federal, State , and Local prisons, there were appx. 250,000 illegals arrested each year.
(d) (12M-.25M)/300M = 4% of our population!
(e) 250k/10M = 2% of illegals! If we use your 28M that drops to less than 1% of the illegal population

So it looks like illegal immigrants are mostly more law abiding than our legal citizens and that problems are focused in a few “haven” areas causing distorted perceptions. It also seems that the “bad apples” are really bad, further distorting perceptions.
Therefore, I decree :-), illegals convicted of any felony be treated to the longest terms possible then deported and determined “undesirable”. If they are arrested again for anything, they get jailed (if in the offense) then deported. For 2nd felony convictions, they get life.

Posted by: Dave at March 28, 2006 5:10 PM
Comment #136441

d.a.n,

“In addition, the cost to tax payers is $1.6 billion annually.”

That is the number placed on the cost to taxpayers because of illegal immigration.

Once again, please let me make this absolutely clear to one and all… I believe that something needs to be done.

What I ask for is prespective… giving a fair and reasonable view of issues…

$1.6 billion just struck me as odd. The reason? That is about what the Republican party in their closed door, Republican only meeting decided to give to the HMOs as a gift. $22 billion over the next 10 years.

No, I am not saying that we should be funding all of the illegal immigrants out of our tax dollars… what I am saying is some do not bat an eye when something like the $22 billion payoff/incentive or whatever it is called is given away… this is after the HMOs and insurance companies got their cut of the new Medicare program.

For me personally, when I go to meet my creator I would like to face him and say that I believed it was better to use that money for his children… than to fatten the wallets and the share prices of HMOs.

Again, perspective. So much is made of the cost of the illegal aliens here… so much gnashing of teeth and how they are draining society and the taxpayer dry… $1.6 billion.

We can argue that $1.6 billion can be put to better use than giving health care to people illegaly here.. Absolutely, it could also be put to better use than a gift to the HMOs without even so much as an opportunity for 49% of Americans to be represented at the meeting.

It somehow reminds me of the drunk complaining in the bar as he is buying a round of drinks how his wife spends too much on groceries.

I guess it is just a matter of where your priorities.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 28, 2006 5:21 PM
Comment #136614
Dave wrote: So it looks like illegal immigrants are mostly more law abiding than our legal citizens…

Dave,
The GAO Report was very clear. Those are cold, hard facts.
And, as far as I can tell, the Center for Immigration Studies does pretty well at just reporting the facts. Their dislike of illegal immigration does not make them less credible.

The 29% figure figure was researched by Frosty Wooldridge, and he said that came from the Center for Immigration Studies in D.C. It does sound high, but I haven’t found anything yet to disprove it. If I do, I’ll will be the first to admit the error.

But, also, to say that illegal aliens decrease the crime rate can not be proven. Not even if you ignore the crime of illegal trespass itself, driving without a drivers license and auto insurance, under-age driving, tax evasion, Social Security fraud, voter fraud, using false ID, etc.

Also, the GAO report is from FBI data, and that report lengthy, but quite clear, and I don’t think they had any bias to inflate numbers, since the government has largely ignored the problem all along.

But, think about this.
Since 1947, the 55,322 in the study group (in the GAO report) commited 5992 murders. That is 1 murder every 86 hours. What’s the cost of that? Those are muders that should have never occurred. And, most of those murders occurred after 1990, so the average rate of 1 murder every 86 hours is conservative.

Darren7160,
Yes, there is no doubt that money is wasted by our bloated, corrupt government.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #136639

d.a.n.

Please try to go beyond your paradigm.
My post was quite clear:
Yes,

The GAO report says 27% of Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
But,
4% of the Entire American population is incarcerated in a particular year
Yet
2% of illegals are arrested in a particular year.
And
68% of illegal arrests are for immigration violations.
So, I am validated when I say:
illegal immigrants are mostly more law abiding than our legal citizens

BTW: There have been over 330,000 murders in the US since 1990 and over 800,000 since 1960; source FBI-UCR. Where do you want your enforcement dollars to go?

Posted by: Dave at March 29, 2006 12:29 PM
Comment #136661

Dave,

[] The value is 29%, not 27%.
[] And, that number is from the CIS, not the GAO.
[] And, total murders nationwide does not equal the number of prisoners (since many murders are unsolved).
[] And, few (if anyone) is in state or federal prison for immigration status alone.
[] And in the study group in the 55,322 illegal aliens in the GAO report, only 24% of all offenses were immigration violations.

You are mangling the facts.

In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) are for illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. And that’s just that statistics of one city in the midst of a nationwide problem.

Dave,

I say illegal aliens increase the crime rate, and think I can prove it (even by exlcuding the crime of being here illegally itself).
You don’t believe it? Above, you said illegal aliens are more law abiding than Americans.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

And, as I’ve pointed out many times, the crime is just part of it. There are other serious issues that create chaos, and societal disorder, and fuel resentment, and racism:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

  • Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 1:25 PM
    Comment #136687
    Dave,

    I say illegal aliens increase the crime rate, and think I can prove it (even by exlcuding the crime of being here illegally itself).
    You don’t believe it? Above, you said illegal aliens are more law abiding than Americans.

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing on. Much less than half the rate of aliens are incarcerated compared to the entire population. Do you think the rap sheets of citizens in the Federal Pen are shorter than the illegals? The 27% number is for Federal only, not the State level. (Page 2 GAO-05-337R). Also, those number include non-citizens who are here legally.(Page 6) which seriously dilutes the percentage. The distortions to the actual data just continue from there.

    Finally, you say over 20% (1200/6000) of the homicides by illegals are in LA. Wouldn’t we be better off allocating our “enforcement dollars” there and in the four other hot spots rather than in some National program?

    Posted by: Dave at March 29, 2006 2:36 PM
    Comment #136700

    Dave,

    Distortions? The 27% was for Federal (in 2003). The 29% was both federal and state jails. Since, the total reached 33% (since 2004). I don’t know what it is now. Probably worse.

    Dave, are you trying to say illegal aliens reduce the crime rates? That’s all. Yes or No.

    The study group of 55,322 was illegal aliens only


    To obtain information to answer these objectives, we identified a
    population of 55,322 aliens that the U.S. Immigration and Customs
    Enforcement (ICE) in the Department of Homeland Security determined,
    based upon information in its immigration databases, had entered the
    country illegally and were still illegally in the country at the time
    of their incarceration in federal or state prison or local jail during
    fiscal year 2003.

    The percentage of illegal aliens in our prisons has been around 27% to 29% for years.
    Just over the last five years, 72,000 aliens have been arrested annually on drug charges alone.
    The numbers now, are actually worse than those previous reports. Lou Dobbs (CNN) reported in 2004 that 33% of our prison population is now comprised of illegal aliens, and over 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.
    Just for the state of Florida alone, in 1999 (7 years ago) had an illegal alien prison population of 6.5% .
    Check this out. Notice the higher crime rates in of all the southern states. I don’t think the Canadians are doing it.
    Here’s more reputable sources regarding the crime rates and percentage of illegal aliens in our federal and state prisons. Approximately 27 percent of all prisoners in Federal custody are criminal aliens. The majority (63 percent) are citizens of Mexico. Other major nationalities include Columbia and the Dominican Republic (7 percent each); Jamaica 4 percent; Cuba 3 percent; El Salvador 2 percent; and Honduras, Haiti, and Guatemala (1 percent each).
    In 2003, the total number of illegal aliens in our prisons was 267,000. It’s much higher now, since the percentage has grown from 27% in 2003 to 33% in 2004.
    Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren’t contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all.
    Estimates in 2004 were that the average illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each. Some bargain, eh?
    The economy does not depend on illegal aliens. Mostly only the greedy CEOs (making $100 million per year). Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. They are losing. The cost out-weighs the benefits. It’s a net loss.
    So, before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien lobby, which makes billions off this government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself who’s saying this garbage and look at what they have to gain.

    As for concentrating on hot-spots, that won’t work. The entire border has to be secured.

    But, don’t worry.
    Democrats want votes.
    Republicans want cheap labor.
    After the elections in November, this issue will die.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 3:26 PM
    Comment #136765

    d.a.n.
    You’re starting to argue like an idealouge. Your numbers are often out of context with incorrect bases, unsupported causal relationships, and are ignoring the fact that alien does not mean illegal.
    I agree it’s an issue in that we need controls on who can enter our country, but arguments so poorly founded aren’t convincing.

    Posted by: Dave at March 29, 2006 10:44 PM
    Comment #136782
    Dave wrote: You’re starting to argue like an idealouge.
    Dave wrote: …ignoring the fact that alien does not mean illegal.
    What? When you say alien, do you mean legal immigrant? I was never talking about legal immigrants.

    Dave,
    What numbers are out of context?
    What has an incorrect base?
    What is poorly founded?
    So, I am arguing like an idealogue?

    Nonsense.

    If you have any proof to disprove anything I’ve said, then please present it.

    I’ve presented a lot of data.
    Which part of any of it do you believe is untrue?
    Pick just one thing, and I’ll be happy to debate it. One thing at a time.

    Then, you say you don’t know what we are disagreeing about?

    Above you said the 27% was for Federal only,
    I refuted it. The total is 29% (in 2003) for all federal and state. You did some calculations of your own, with no supporting proof at all, and surmised my arguments are poorly founded and aren’t convincing. OK, let’s take it step by step…

    Dave wrote: I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing on. Much less than half the rate of aliens are incarcerated compared to the entire population.
    So, you don’t believe it was 29% in 2003? Here’s the source? Disbelieve it if you like. I have multiple credible sources. Also, in 2004, it climbed to 33%.
    Dave wrote: Do you think the rap sheets of citizens in the Federal Pen are shorter than the illegals?
    Yes. Absolutely. 13 offenses per illegal alien. That’s pretty damning evidence (from FBI data).
    Dave wrote: The 27% number is for Federal only, not the State level. (Page 2 GAO-05-337R).
    Wrong. The GAO report is for 55,322 illegal aliens only. I don’t see (based on a text search) any where in the GAO report where it ever said 27% nor 29% were Federal prisoners only. That’s not the source of the number. Search it if you don’t believe it.
    From the GAO report: To obtain information to answer these objectives, we identified a population of 55,322 aliens that the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in the Department of Homeland Security determined, based upon information in its immigration databases, had entered the country illegally
    What part of illegally did you not understand?
    Dave wrote: Also, those number include non-citizens who are here legally.
    Wrong. As stated above, the study group is only for 55,322 illegal aliens.
    Dave wrote: (Page 6) which seriously dilutes the percentage.
    Wrong. Once again, as stated above, the 29% figure did not come from the GAO Report. I’m not trying to dilute or distort anything. Prove where the facts are wrong, because I want to be accurate.
    Dave wrote: The distortions to the actual data just continue from there.
    Funny. Who is distorting and misinterpretting the data? Just because you don’t beleive it doesn’t mean it is distorted.
    Dave wrote: Finally, you say over 20% (1200/6000) of the homicides by illegals are in LA. Wouldn’t we be better off allocating our “enforcement dollars” there and in the four other hot spots rather than in some National program?

    No. All of our borders should be secured, but I seriously doubt our bloated, irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for incumbents will ever do anything about this problem, or any of the serious issues facing the nation.

    Dave, believe what ever you want.
    Everything I’ve said are all lies.
    And all the data is lies.
    It’s all lies.
    Suit yourself.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree.

    Legal, regulated immigration is OK.
    Illegal, massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration is bad. It creates chaos, societal disorder, fuels racism and resentments.
    _______________________________
    California’s prisons are testimony to the growing illegal alien crime wave. In 1997, nearly 15% of California’s state prison inmate population is made up of illegal aliens (approximately 22,000 prisoners).
    (it is much higher now…29%).

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 12:38 AM
    Comment #136783

    Dave,
    BTW, the flaw in your calculations is the total numbers of prisoners in the U.S.
    In year 2002, there was a total of 2 million prisoners in Federal and state prisons.
    Not 12 million.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 12:55 AM
    Comment #136808

    d.a.n.

    I don’t have time today but here is one point:

    criminal aliens—noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally-(Page 1 GAO-05-337R)

    The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27 percent. -(Page 2 GAO-05-337R).

    BTW: I had a hard time verifying the total number of people in prisons and for how long they were in prison. E.g. per the GAO report, the average “stay” was about 70 days for the State level study group. The total of 12M was from commercial sites. Where did you get the 2 million number? It’s possible that with a 70 day average, the average number at any one time is 2 million. So I think a better measurement is person-jaildays, rather than persons. This would give some accounting to length of term and severity of crime (or competency of their lawyer)

    Fianl point for now: I agree “illegal immigration” is a problem for numerous reasons. But, the criminal argument is specious and plays on racism, as it always has since we started considering newcomers as immigrants rather than settlers.

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 8:55 AM
    Comment #136815

    Dave,

    The 2 million (actually 2.135 million as of Dec-2004) came from the U.S. Department of Justice.

    But, I suppose you are going to say they are lying too ?

    While your own facts are repeatedly, and definitively inaccurate, you have the gall to keep alleging the data and reports are specious and racist, while you have yet to disprove any of it. Instead, you call it specious, racist, and say I sound like and ideologue. Instead of discussing the data and facts, you prefer to resort to name-calling. Nothing new. That’s always what happens when some people start losing a debate. Nothing new there.

    By the way, I was talking about GAO-05-646R, and you are talking about GAO-05-337R, but that’s OK. You now refer to (Page 1 GAO-05-337R) and (Page 2 GAO-05-337R) and write:


    The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years out 27 percent. -(Page 2 GAO-05-337R).

    So, now, you are acknowledging that the percentage was indeed as high as 27 % ?

    Amazing.

    Logic does not work on some people.

    I could keep supplying you with credible facts, and you would simply continue to dismiss it all as lies, specious, racist, and ideological.

    What’s the point?

    Like I said, please believe whatever you want.
    Everything I’ve said is specious and racist.
    The GAO reports are all lies too.
    The U.S. Department of Justice lies too.

    You say my argument plays on racism, despite the many times I wrote race has nothing to do with it.

    Nevermind that (above) I pointed out numerous other reasons too:
    But, crime is just part of it. There are other serious issues:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;
  • In the end, you wrote:

    I agree “illegal immigration” is a problem for numerous reasons. But, the criminal argument is specious and plays on racism…

    Nonsense. But there are many, many like you that don’t believe the facts, and always want to play the race card, and then call everyone else a racist.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 10:05 AM
    Comment #136822

    d.a.n.
    WTF? I am debating the facts. In my post I said; “Yes, the federal prisoners are 27%” Which is exactly what the report says. Note the word federal? 2M is the instantaneous value, not the number of different people in jail over the period of a year (yes I saw the BoP site). I differentiate between criminal alien and illegal alien. I never said you were racist, I said racism is involved. e.g. your initial linked site is grossly racist.
    Get your head out from wherever it is and actually read please. There is always more involved than the numbers you want to be definitive.

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 10:54 AM
    Comment #136823

    Right.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 11:00 AM
    Comment #136825

    Dave,

    I already admitted the location of the article was probably at a bad site, but the article, itself, which I reposted was valid (in my opinion), which stated the total percentage of illegal aliens in our prisons is 29%.

    Instantaneious value?
    Criminal alien versus illegal alien?
    Federal?

    Those are all just clever detractors to cloud the issues. A common cheaters tactic. You are unable to debate the facts, so you resort to name calling, say “WTF”, and tell people to get their head out.

    Classic.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 11:06 AM
    Comment #136874

    Sorry, d.a.n. but you are way off base on this one. For example, you continue to use “illegal alien” but the report uses “criminal alien” Big difference.

    But I’ll ask you a simple question, please give a simple answer:

    If
    (a) the average stay in prison is 60 days, and
    (b) at any one time there are 2 Million people in Jail, and
    (c) if nobody stays in jail more than once in a year, then
    How many different people will be in a jail over the course of one year?

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 1:12 PM
    Comment #136898

    One more thing, your reference, GAO-05-646R is for Arrests, not convictions or anything else.

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 2:20 PM
    Comment #136901

    Dave,

    Several of your numbers and calculations, by your own admission are wrong.

    Now, your trying to pull a fast one by changing the subject and focus of the debate, to obscure the defects in your many flawed arguments and calculations. Typical cheater tactics.

    And, in addition, you still never provide anything to back up your assertions interpretations, except a link to a GAO report that I’m was never disputing.

    Now you want to bring up all sorts of other issues to cloud the fact that your arguments are weak, invalid, or unsustainable, and derail the main issue: the crime rate.

    So, let me humor you for a moment. Where does it say that all illegal aliens average stay in prison is 60 days? And, who cares?

    You’re calculations are a red herring.
    They make no sense.

    And, if you are still trying to say 12 million people are in prison each year, you’ll have to prove it. You even admitted above you were not sure about those numbers.

    And, I still don’t understand the nonsense about aliens and illegal aliens. The issue is only about illegal aliens.

    Just because you say it is so doesn’t make it true.

    So, trying to change the subject ain’t gonna work. I asked you a question first, and you gingerly side-stepped it.

    QUESTION:
    Are you saying illegal aliens do not increase the overall crime rate?
    Yes or No?

    I think you are saying Yes. Above, you said it was specious and racist, and said illegal aliens are more law abiding. Try to prove it.
    Links, reports, research, studies please?

    Now, here’s some numbers for you.
    I’ll try to keep it simple.

    In 2003, 147,000 illegal aliens were in federal prisons, which was 27% of the federal prison population.
    In 2003, 46,000 illegal aliens were in state prisons.
    In 2003, 74,000 illegal aliens were in local prisons.
    That is a total of 267,000 illegal alien in U.S. prisons.

    By Sep-2004, 29% of all prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens.

    The total prison population is about 2.2 million.

    What part of that, exactly, do you disagree with?

    What ever other issues you’re now trying to insert are just a tactic to derail the original debate.

    So, go ahead again, and call it all distorted, racist, WTF, specious, way off base, what ever.
    It’s all lies.
    Keep believing there are currently 12 million people in prison if you like.
    Please believe what ever you want.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 2:28 PM
    Comment #136903
    One more thing, your reference, GAO-05-646R is for Arrests, not convictions or anything else.

    Really graspin’ for straws aren’t ya ?

    The next thing you are going to say, all 55,322 illegal aliens were unjustly arrested 13 times each (for a total of 691,890 offenses).

    And, aside from crime , you still avoid addressing all of the other issues too:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

  • Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 2:37 PM
    Comment #136923

    Holy crap!
    Sorry, you didn’t understand a single thing I posted and are just repeating yourself. Answer the damn question and see for yourself.

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 3:55 PM
    Comment #136929

    Dave,

    If people can’t understand you, perhaps it is because your rhetoric makes no sense?

    As for answering questions, I asked a question first, and you refused to answer it.

    But, OK…I’ll humor the childishness a bit longer.

    QUESTION: If: (a) the average stay in prison is 60 days, and (b) at any one time there are 2 Million people in Jail, and (c) if nobody stays in jail more than once in a year, then How many different people will be in a jail over the course of one year?

    ANSWER:
    Many, if that were true. So what? What does that have to do with anything. You seem obsessed with this one point, but ignore everything else. I think they call it (OCD) Obssessive Compulisive Disorder. What are you trying to prove? So, you’re trying to say there are more than 2.2 million different people in prison per year. Still, so what? You’re off on tangents, to obscure the fact that your numbers, by your own admission, have been wrong, and your selective interpretations are wrong, and all this was ever about, which you want to ignore, is the crime rate, which you call specious, distorted, and racist.

    Please, don’t stress yourself over this any more.
    Just believe what you want to.
    Call it racist, distorted, specious, whatever.
    It’s getting tiring as you keep changing the subject and clouding the issues.

    The only issue here is the crime rate.
    You say illegal aliens are more law abiding.
    I refuted it, and provided overwhelming data, some from the FBI, GAO, Department of Justice, and many other sources. You haven’t provided any. If you can’t disprove it, don’t get mad at me. I didn’t make up the data.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 4:20 PM
    Comment #136977

    You didn’t refute anything. You just repeat yourself and ignore what you don’t want to see.

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 7:23 PM
    Comment #137016
    Dave wrote: So it looks like illegal immigrants are mostly more law abiding than our legal citizens.

    I refuted it.
    If you look up the definition of “refute”:


    To prove to be false or erroneous; overthrow by argument or proof: refute testimony.

    I refuted your statement with overwhelming data, reports from the FBI, GAO, Department of Justice, etc.

    But, I forgot.
    It’s all lies.
    Believe what you want to believe.

    Dave,
    You just repeat yourself and ignore what you don’t want to see.

    I answered your question, but you still refused to answer my question.

    QUESTION:
    Are you saying illegal aliens do not increase the overall crime rate?
    Yes or No?

    Of course, you don’t want to answer it, because you know the truth would mean that your statement (below) is false, and you are wrong, and you can’t admit it.

    Dave wrote:
    So it looks like illegal immigrants are mostly more law abiding than our legal citizens.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 9:47 PM
    Comment #137023

    QUESTION:
    Are you saying illegal aliens do not increase the overall crime rate?
    Yes or No?

    Yes, if rate is defined as per-person, not a net quantity

    Again, you failed to evalutate or respond to the specific challenges to your data and dismiss details such as the 646 report being for arrests, not convictions and the temporary nature of incarceration. If you use the data, you have to include arrests and not convictions of non aliens. AND you als ignore the difference betweem criminal alien and illegal alien, etc… etc… etc…

    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 10:32 PM
    Comment #137025

    One last post, From your Center of Immigartion Studies:
    http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html

    In the 1980s and 1990s researchers have concluded, or at least have lent support to the conclusion, that immigrants commit proportionately no more than and possibly even fewer crimes than native-born citizens. The General Accounting Office, analyzing FBI records, found that foreign-born individuals accounted for about 19 percent of the total arrests in 1985 in six selected major cities. The foreign-born represented 19.6 percent of the aggregate population. While “foreign-born” can mean refer to citizens as well as aliens, the study makes an implicit case that immigrant crime is in line with the rest of the country.


    Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 11:03 PM
    Comment #137032

    OK, that one CIS study in 2001 (…2001/crime/toc.html) says the crime rate remains unchanged, but that is only if you ignore:
    (1) illegal trespass of our borders
    (2) driving without a license or fake ID
    (3) driving without auto insurance
    (4) using falsified Social Security cards

    Good for you. I had read that before actually, but that was in 2001, and I knew it had to be ignoring many issues.

    However, there appears to be a flaw in that CIS report (or things have changed since 2001).

    Some studies and reports show the percentage of illegal aliens is 27%, 29%, and as high as 33%.
    Even one GAO report said it was 27% for federal prisons.

    But, let’s say that is overstated.
    Let’s be conservative.
    Let’s say it is only 11.4%.
    This web-site says (in 2003) 267,000 illegal aliens had been incarcerated at sometime during the year.

    Now, total prisoners is 2.2 million prisoners (in all U.S. prisons, state, federal, local).

    Are you OK with that so far ?

    Now, 267,000 arrested illegal aliens is 2.22% of the total 12 million illegal alien population.

    But, the remaining 1,950,000 (2,200,000 - 250,000) arrested U.S. citizens is only 0.65% of all 298,412,183 U.S. citizens.

    Therefore, a larger percentage of prisoners incarcerated sometime during the year are illegal aliens (based on total populations of illegal aliens and U.S. citizens).

    Now, lets say 68% of the illegal aliens were arrested for immigration violations only. Let’s excuse that crime, and reduce it by half to 0.71%.

    But, 0.71% is still more than 0.65% for U.S. citizens.

    Crime by all illegal aliens is 10% higher than U.S. citizens. This can be corroborated by reports from the U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Statistics.

    Also, crimes vary by race. Asians have the lowest rate, and greatly reduce the overall percentage.

    So, did I forget anything?

    So, for the statement: Illegal aliens increase the overall crime rate?

    You say it is False.
    I say it is True.
    0.71% (of all illegal aliens) is greater than 0.65% (of U.S. citizens).

    Don’t believe it? Fine. We’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

    Here’s another interesting study I did.
    Notice the crime rates in southern states.
    Except for a few exceptions, most border states have higher violent crime rates (per 100,000):

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 1:47 AM
    Comment #137064
    This web-site says (in 2003) 267,000 illegal aliens had been incarcerated at sometime during the year.

    Now, total prisoners is 2.2 million prisoners (in all U.S. prisons, state, federal, local).

    Are you OK with that so far ?


    Please try to stay with me on this one;
    (a) there are 2.2 million prisoners in jail at one particular time. That means the people who are in jail change and the total number of different people who are in jail at some time during the year is higher than the 2.2 million. That’s where the average stay of 60 to 70 days comes into play. It really means that during the year there are 10-12 million seperate stays in jails.

    (b) If 267k criminal aliens are incarcerated at sometime during the year and there are 10 million seperate stays, then the criminal aliens represent 2.7% of jail stays. Which is less than their presence in society (12M/300M = 4%).

    The fact that 4% of the population is here illegally is what concerns me. The criminality argument is simply bogus.

    Remember when I challenged your causality statements? Prove that the increased rates in southern crime are caused by immigration. You probably can’t in a critical review process and your staement is simply opinion. A quick review of data shows that the south and concentrated urban areas have always been more violent.

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 8:29 AM
    Comment #137081
    10-12 million seperate stays in jails
    That’s a red-herring. You are trying to fudge your numbers. If you are going to inflate the denominator for illegal aliens from 2.2 million prisoners to 10 to 12 million, I can do the same for the 298,412,183 U.S. citizens too. So, since you think you get to divide by 10 to 12 million (instead of 2.2 million), I can divide the 1,950,000 by 1,628,702,816 (298,412,183 * 5.45) driving the percentage of U.S. citizens down from 0.65% to 0.12%. So, the ratios do not change. Good try though.

    Also, Hispanics commit more crime than Asians, and Whites. Asians commit the least crimes. Blacks drastically drive up the over-all percentages for U.S. citizens, even though they are only 13% of the population, as evidenced by many reports from the U.S. Department of Justice.

    So, for several reasons, your argument really falls apart. Especially if you include the crime of illegal trespass itself, which is committed repeatedly by many illegal aliens. That is automatically 1 crime per illegal alien from the start, not to mention the other crimes of driving without a license, auto insurance, fake ID, fake Social Security, voter fraud, and a general disregard of our laws, and abuse of our services, welfare, etc.

    And, 2 million illegal aliens cross the borders annaully. That’s a lot of crime in itself.

    The Hispanic police chief of Salt Lake City, Utah, (only U.S. city to compile or release this information) reports 87% of his drug arrests are illegal aliens mostly from Mexico.

    Not enough studies exist to prove that crime in the south is due to illegal aliens, but it is a strong possibility, since every illegal alien, has committed at least one crime (illegal tresspass). But, where’s the proof to back up your statement that the south has always been more violent? Because in Texas in 1960 (population 9.6 million), there were 15,428 violent crimes (0.16%), but in 2000 (population 20.1 million), there are 1.14 million violent crimes (0.55%). The percentage more than tripled. Likewise for many states in the south.

    Stop making excuses for the criminal activity of illegal aliens.
    Illegal aliens pay to be smuggled into the U.S. from Mexico, and illegal aliens are usually the smugglers.
    Drug use and violence is increasing among U.S. children and teens.
    50% to 75% of the illegal drugs in the U.S. may come from Mexico across the U.S.-Mexico border. These drugs are produced in Mexico or transported through Mexico and then smuggled into the U.S. by mostly illegal aliens from Mexico.
    Illegal immigration and drug smuggling from Mexico is also increasing.
    Mexico is the transit station for 50-70% of the cocaine, a quarter to a third of the heroin, 80% of the marijuana, and 90% of the ephedrine used to make methamphetamine entering the United States (Senate Hearings 1998).
    In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide are for illegal aliens.
    Illegal immigration is a contributing factor behind the high crime rates in many of America’s larger cities. Making matters worse is the fact that many of the illegal immigrants committing the crimes are protected by misguided people (like you) and policies set up by city and state governments.
    Illegal aliens crime rates are higher than those of U.S. citizens.
    Stop making excuses, and stop trying to twist the numbers to suit yourself.
    Crime is never politically correct.

    Or, go on like you’re doing, twisting the data, ignoring the overwhelming evidence, and belileve whatever you want. But, denying the facts makes you part of the problem. Not the solution.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 10:20 AM
    Comment #137090

    Dude, take a pill.
    I’m denying nothing. There are no herrings of any color in my post. The facts are simple, there is no conclusive evidence that shows aliens commit more crimes than citizens.

    You accuse me of “protecting” criminals. How am I doing that? You accuse me of “excusing” bad behavior. How am I doing that? Criminals are criminals. Being born elsewhere isn’t a crime.

    You’re ignoring everything but what you want to hear. You’re repeating the same stuff over and over and over whether it means anything or not. Those are the tactics of the big lie or an Asperger syndrome stutter.

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 11:05 AM
    Comment #137094

    Back to the name calling are we.
    That’s classic.
    Always the last resort of one losing an argument.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 11:16 AM
    Comment #137097
    You accuse me of “protecting” criminals. How am I doing that?
    I never said that. Your twisting things again, as usual.

    You accuse me of “excusing” bad behavior. How am I doing that? Criminals are criminals. Being born elsewhere isn’t a crime.
    I never said that either, and I certainly never said being born elsewhere was a crime.

    You are still, hopelessly, twisting things again. I said “quit making excuses for the criminal activity of illegal aliens”. That does not equate to protecting criminals. You’re seeing only what you want to see, and trying to twist the facts and statements. Those are simply, more weak, lame tactics to cloud the issues away from the facts. Your data and calculations are severely flawed, overwhelmingly refuted by numerous reports, and you are upset, so you resort to name calling. But, don’t get mad at me. The FBI, GAO, and Department of Justice compile the data. Not me.

    As for repetition, that’s necessary with some people. And hopeless with others. But, the data in my last post was all new. Not repeated. No where else was the crime rate in Salt Lake City mentioned before, nor was the drug smuggling numbers mentioned elsewhere.

    You ignore the overwhelming evidence, and yet you have the gall to say anyone who agrees with it is only seeing what they want to see.

    Hillarious. Take off your blinders, and admit you are wrong.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 11:41 AM
    Comment #137107
    You accuse me of “protecting” criminals. How am I doing that? Posted by Dave at March 31, 2006 11:05 AM
    I never said that. Your twisting things again, as usual. Posted by d.a.n at March 31, 2006 11:41 AM
    Making matters worse is the fact that many of the illegal immigrants committing the crimes are protected by misguided people (like you)

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 10:20 AM


    I’m not mad at you d.a.n. I’m dissapointed that you really don’t see the points I’m making. I see yours and the data. I can remember them, I don’t need repeating. But you don’t understand the basis why your numbers are wrong. I.e. the critical difference between
    1) how many people are in jail on a particular day vs.
    2) how many different people have been in jail over the period of a year

    You can not compare “2.1M people in jail today” with “247k in jail at some time over a year” they are not the same.

    And, Criminal aliens are not the same as illegal aliens. They have to be seperated, unless you think there should be no non-citizens allowed in the US.

    Much of the rest of your posts and data are opinions and not facts. The facts are often unrelated to the topic.

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 12:10 PM
    Comment #137128
    Dave wrote: I’m not mad at you d.a.n.
    Then, why the name calling, WFT, racist, etc. ?
    Dave wrote: (1) how many people are in jail on a particular day vs. 2) how many different people have been in jail over the period of a year
    Dave, I understand that perfectly. But, that applies to all prisoners, including U.S. citizens. I could fudge denominator in the exact same way, and say U.S. citizens too only had an average stay of 60 days. But, that is a flawed argument.

    And, I even removed the 68% that were supposedly only immigration violations, and the percentage of crime by illegal aliens was still higher.

    You can not compare “2.1M people in jail today” with “247k in jail at some time over a year” they are not the same.
    I never said they were the same. Where do you come up with this stuff? Sorry, but let me repeat myself: 267,000 illegal aliens per year, at some instant, were incarcerated wihtin U.S. prisons. That means, the remaining 1,950,000 were not illegal aliens. You say they all had an average stay of 60 days only. I don’t know if that’s true, but let’s assume you are right. If there are (as you say) a total of 12 million illegal aliens in the U.S., that means 2.22% (i.e. 267,000/12,000,000) of all illegal aliens were in a prison at some time during the year. That means the remaining 1,950,000 prisoners were not illegal aliens. Therefore, that means 0.65% (1,950,000/256,412,183) of all non-illegal aliens were in a prison at some time during the year. 2.22% is a greater rate than 0.65% , which proves the crime rate for illegal aliens is higher. Now, that can vary by state. Southern border states and large cities are hit hardest.
    And, Criminal aliens are not the same as illegal aliens. They have to be seperated, unless you think there should be no non-citizens allowed in the US.
    They both sound criminal and illegal to me. The distinction is not important. GAO Report GAO-05-646R is with respect to 55,322 illegal aliens only. So are many of the other studies. Likewise for the total 267,000 in U.S. prisons. That is with respect to illegal aliens only. I think the alien/illegal alien issue is just another clever tactic to derail the debate. Another good try though.
    Much of the rest of your posts and data are opinions and not facts.
    It’s not my data. It comes from the GAO, FBI, and Department of Justice. Tell them it’s all lies.
    The facts are often unrelated to the topic.
    The topic is about illegal aliens and crime rates. So, crime is related to the topic.
    I’m dissapointed that you really don’t see the points I’m making.
    Sorry, but your points are invalid.

    But, please don’t fret about it.
    Please keep believing as you like.
    It does not disappoint me at all.
    There are lots like you that are always trying making excuses for the criminal activity of illegal aliens, or denying the fact that they indeed increase crime rates.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 1:17 PM
    Comment #137129
    267,000 illegal aliens per year, at some instant, were incarcerated wihtin U.S. prisons. That means, the remaining 1,950,000 were not illegal aliens.
    No it doesn’t, and that’s your problem. Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 1:18 PM
    Comment #137133

    Sorry,
    that’s “the” problem. One more try:

    If 267,000 people were for some time of the year in jail, and their average stay was about 2 months, then at any one time about 44,500 (267k*2/12) are in jail. If the 2,100,000 was a good average number of people in jail at any one point in time, this would mean that at any one point in time, about 2.1% (44.5k/2.1M) of those in jail at any time are from the 267,000.

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 1:36 PM
    Comment #137172
    267,000 illegal aliens per year, at some instant, were incarcerated wihtin U.S. prisons. That means, the remaining 1,950,000 were not illegal aliens.
    No it doesn’t, and that’s your problem.

    No Dave, I think you know perfectly well what I’m talking about (2001 Space Odyssey)

    Your calculations are flawed. Did you used to work at Enron?
    Your comparing apples to oranges, because, tou are calculating a percentage of illegal aliens based on total prison population (2.2 million) and now, coming up with yet a new number of 2.1% . You are mixing time periods and data sets in a way that is illogical.

    The proper way to calculate the percentages is with “total incarcerated illegal aliens” per year with respect to “total illegal aliens” versus “total non-illegal aliens” per year with respect to the “total non-illegal-alien population”.

    Then, compare the two percentages.

    Total incarcerated population per year = 2,200,000
    Total illegal aliens in U.S. = 12,000,000
    Total incarcerated illegal aliens per year = 267,000
    Total incarcerated non-illegal aliens per year = 1,950,000 = (2,200,000 - 267,000)
    Total non-illegal aliens in U.S. = 298,412,183

    2.22% = ( 267,000 / 12,000,000 ) * 100 (for illegal aliens)
    0.67% = ( 1,950,000 / 298,412,183 ) * 100 (for non-illegal-aliens)

    Therefore, the percentage is 2.22% for the total incarcerated illegal aliens (267,000) per year with respect to total illegal aliens (12,000,000).

    And, that is compared directly with the percentage of 0.65% for total of incarcerated non-illegal aliens per year (1,950,000) with respect to the total non-illegal-aliens (i.e. the U.S. population of 298,412,183).

    Now, that is apples to apples.

    2.22% is greater than 0.67% which proves illegal aliens increase have a higher crime rate.

    It is that simple.
    But, don’t take my word for it.
    Research recent crime by illegal aliens.
    Then look at the crime rates by race.
    You won’t like what you see.

    The fallacy of your calculation is that you are dividing the 267,000 by 6 months and then by the total incarcerated per year (2,200,000), and coming up with 2.1% .

    I could do the same with all the other non-illegal aliens incarcerated per year (i.e. (1,950,000 / 6months) / 2,200,000) = 14.8%.

    But, that in fact hurts your argument even more, because that implies 2.1% versus 14.8% , which shows a significantly large amount are illegal aliens: 14.2% = (2.1 / 14.8) * 100 .

    But, that is actually not a meaningful calculation. All that proves is that the ratio of incarcerated illegal aliens (2.1%) per total incarcertated versus the incarcerated non-illegal-aliens (14.8%) per total incarcerated is 2.1% versus 14.8% (respectively).

    Either way, your calculations or mine, it proves illegal aliens increase the crime rate.

    And, if you include the crimes of illegal trespass, driving without drivers licenses, auto insurance, using fake ID, fake Social Security, etc. it most certainly increases the crime rate. That is at least 1 crime, automatically, per illegal alien.

    Sorry. But, like I said, the data is from the GAO, FBI, and Department of Justice. It’s their data.

    Also, if illegal immigration is such a good thing, and isn’t costing U.S. taxpayers, then why are the majority of Americans opposed to it? Oh, right. They are all racists and xenophobes. Right. Did it ever occur to you they don’t like being ripped off and taken advantage of ?

    But, crime is just one serious part of the overall problem. There are many other costs. 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare. They burden our schools, hospitals, healthcare, law enforcement, prison, insurance, legal systems, and vote fraudulently in our elections. The Federal government severely exacerbated the problem by forcing states to allow illegal aliens into our public schools and receive welfare too.

    So, you say your right, and I’m wrong. Fine. Believe what you want, and continue to ignore all of this, all the reports, all the data, etc. Everyone is lying. The majority of Americans that want an end to illegal immigration are merely xenophobes and racists, and they have no grounds for concern whatsoever. Especially, since illegal aliens lower crime rates. Right.

    _________ crime rates increase __________
    PHOENIX – Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45 percent increase in homicides and 41 percent increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, D–Dist. 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist) … more …
    _____________________________________
    12/31/2002 - The six-month figures revealed a 3.3 percent increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.
    _____________________________________
    February 06,2006 - The Monitor - According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004.
    These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement vetting process, which runs inmate records through a series of databases to verify accuracy. The Hidalgo County jail only has approximately 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make repeat appearances.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 6:00 PM
    Comment #137191
    Total incarcerated population per year = 2,200,000

    No, no, no, no, no.
    It’s 2,200,000 incarcerated on a particular day.
    Not the same thing at all, but you just can’t or won’t understand that. Ask someone else, I’m done.

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 9:54 PM
    Comment #137201

    Dave,
    What you fail to understand is that the 2,200,000 for any particular day, applies to both illegal aliens and non-illegal-aliens. It makes no difference, which is why you are unable to prove it by simple calculations. Your calculations are flawed and you refuse to admit it.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 31, 2006 11:37 PM
    Comment #137483

    d.a.n.
    I don’t know why I’m bothering but:
    On the date of the GAO report there were 2,200,000 people in jail. How many were criminal aliens?

    Remember, there were 267,000 criminal aliens arested that year and each was in jail for about 60-80 days; let’s say 90 days to make the math easy.

    With that number, what percent were aliens?

    Posted by: Dave at April 2, 2006 9:54 PM
    Comment #137523

    Dave,

    Those calculations are flawed.
    I could divide 267,000 by 2,200,000 which yields 12.1%. That’s high, but, not as high as many other reported percentages from many different sources (below), including the Department of Justice, and GAO.

    Also, the average time service is in question, because a 2000 GAO report showed the average time served was 21 months (for illegal aliens in Federal prison).

    If you are still saying the percentages are lower, then it would be in contrast to the GAO and DOJ reports.

    ____________
    In 2000, the average time served by illegal aliens in Federal prison was 21 months.
    ____________
    In 1995, 11% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
    In 2002, 17% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
    In 2003, 25% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
    In 2004, 29% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
    In 2004 (Aug), 25% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
    In 2005 (May), 25% of California’s state prisoners are illegal aliens.
    In 2005 (Aug), 29% of America’s prisoners (federal only) are illegal aliens.
    In 2005 (Oct), 27% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
    In 2006, 33% of America’s prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
    ____________

    So, those are the percentages.
    Run some searches and you can verify all of those percentages. Also, as the GAO report said, 27% of America’s prisoners (federal only) were illegal aliens.

    What all of the data from dozens of sources clearly indicate is that the crime rates are increasing as a result of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration. This is not a mystery. Whenever and wherever this has occurred (in the past and in other countries), chaos, crime, and societal disorder is almost always the result.

    Also, many other cities are reporting increased crime rates.

    However, crime is only part of the other numerous serious issues:


    • increased crime rates;

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems; disease

    • burden on hospital systems;

    • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare;

    • burden on Social Security system;

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

    • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;


    Posted by: d.a.n at April 3, 2006 2:09 AM
    Comment #140080

    Martin,

    Your position certainly is popular but… Illegal immigrants are felons? Why not simply misdemeanors? A guy crosses the border to try to feed his family and you want to call him a felon. A fense won’t work but we need a little more control of the border for national security purposes - but a man with hungry kids is a felon? Please. You don’t want your tax dollars to provide medical services?… to children?… but prisoners in prison get medical sevices at your expense. But you would turn a child away from the hospitol because he was undocumented? Please. What is wrong with a plan like the Senate plan to normalize the people that are here working and obeying the law by making them pay back taxes, fines and defacto probation for thier misdemeanor illegal entry, throwing the criminals out, and criminalizing illegal entry by known criminals while opening the doors wide open for legal immigration, and adding border security to limit illegal entry?

    Posted by: Ray Guest at April 11, 2006 10:53 PM
    Comment #140166

    What is wrong with you people!? They are practically refugees fleeing poverty and destruction in hopes of pursuing the American dream. If the United States transformed into a tyrannous dictatorship wouldn’t you flee in hope of finding a better life? The United States was founded by refugees fleeing the government’s of Europe. America is the land of the free, then why don’t we honor those words of the Constitution. Also, illegals are willing to do jobs you would turn your nose up to (asbestos cleaning, assembly line jobs that pay minimum wage, and back-breaking landscaping). If you’d like to do these low paying jobs, go right ahead, but I have a feeling that you wouldnt’t.

    Posted by: Matt Damon at April 12, 2006 10:25 AM
    Comment #140170

    First of all, I would like to agree with Matt Damon, although I am sure that that is not his true name. Second I would like to reply to some of the comments on this page. Starting with this following post from a Mr. Mike Tate.

    Mr. Martin,

    You’ve got my full backing with this column

    The United States is being morphed into a universal country with a universal culture - a region on the earth’s surfance… serving only as an economic sanctuary.

    Posted by: Mike Tate at March 24, 2006 04:10 PM

    Mr. Tate, I would like to point out that our country is referred to as the melting pot of the world’s cultures. In the creation of our country, we accepted immigrants from all over the world, thus creating this universal culture you so hate. You are a descendant to one of these immigrants.

    Posted by: a friend of Matt Damon at April 12, 2006 10:39 AM
    Comment #140550

    The issue is not about race, color, nationality, or ethnicity.
    The problem is that illegal aliens cost.
    Not just money, but lives too (increased crime rates).
    We are now witnessing chaos, societal disorder, resentments, racism, etc., which are all the usual results of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.
    That is not said with malice. It is simply a fact.
    We can not all live at the expense of everyone else.
    That is a myth perpetuated by pandering politicians and misguided people that overlook the denial of benefits and services for U.S. citizens that pay for those benefits (e.g. education, welfare, healthcare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, etc.).
    There is no doubt that many people from all over the world want to come to the U.S.
    That is what legal immigration is for. Get in line. Cutting in line is not fair to legal immigrants. The U.S. accepts hundreds of thousands of legal immigrants every year.
    There is no doubt that many people all over the world want to come to the U.S.,
    since the federal government forces states to provide public education, Medicaid, healthcare, and welfare to illegal aliens.

    The problem is that we can not make the pie any bigger.
    We can not let everyone come here, and use and abuse what we have built, because it won’t be long before there is nothing for anyone.

    But, more importantly, We also owe a duty, first, to our fellow U.S. American citizens who are suffering and dying due to illegal aliens.
    One person is murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien. Crime rates are rising in many cities and states. No one knows the entire cost and misery of the increasing crime rates.
    Los Angeles ERs and hospitals are over-run with illegal aliens (most that don’t pay) while U.S. citizens go without (and die). U.S. citizens go without because 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare. U.S. tax payers pay a huge price for the loss of life, crime, and cost of law enforcement and prison due to illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners in our state and federal prisons are are illegal aliens).

    The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

    The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

    • Where is our companssion for the one person murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien (source: GAO-5646R)
    • Where is your compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?
    • Where is your compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources and 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?
    • Where is your compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-class (practically slavery) ?
    • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?
    • Where is your compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.
    • Where is your compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If you child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.
    • Where is your compassion for the U.S. tax payers that lose many tens of billions per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?
    • In view of all that above, how could anyone use the excuse that the U.S. would crumble (economically) without cheap labor? Even if it were true (which it isn’t), does that justify an sub-minimum-wage under-class ? The economics issue is unsubstantiated, since the majority of those low wage jobs are not highly skilled jobs. Even if it were true, are we so afraid we will have to pay a little more for something that we would condone an underclass? Are we all going to be like Senator Linsey Graham (D-SC) who said: “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their [illegal aliens] labor.” ? Nevermind that S.C. has the highest rate of violent crime (excluding D.C.) of any state in the U.S. and it is largely due to illegal aliens.
    • Where is your compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens? On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S.
    • Where is your compassion for all of the people that do not want to see a repeat of 11-Sep-2001, perpetrated by several illegal aliens ?
    • The Center for Immigration Studies in Washington indicates that U.S. households (in 2002) headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services, but only paid in $16 billion in taxes, which is an annual loss to California taxpayers of $10 billion. That was four years ago. It’s even worse now.

    Crime is only one of the many problems.
    The following are other serious issues stemming from illegal aliens:

    • increased crime rates;

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems;

    • burden on welfare systems;

    • burden on Social Security system;

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on severely overburdened border patrol systems;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems;

    • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

    It is understandable that many people feel like they are being benevolent, and want to have compassion for illegal aliens, but fail to have equal compassion for their fellow U.S. citizens. Truly needy U.S. Americans are waiting and going without, while millions of illegal aliens collect welfare, fill our prisons, defraud Social Security, Medicare, and fraudulently vote in our elections.

    We can’t make the pie any bigger. We are importing poverty while greedy emplouyers of illegal aliens reep the most benefit (not U.S. citizens or illegal aliens). Supporters of illegal aliens fail to prioritize and understand the simple math, of how they are, by supporting illegal aliens, hurting their own fellow U.S. American citizens.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 9:49 PM
    Comment #183311

    Our problem started when my daughter was diagnossed with bipolar disorder.After a long time in a hospital she was unable to come home around our much smaller children. She moved to Ga. to live with my mother.She had joined the ROTC program and the army against our wishes. At this time she was 16&17yrs old. A week before her 18th birthday she called and said that she was lineing with her boy friend that she had been dateing a little over a year she had stoped taking her meds so that she could go to boot camp,she had dropped out of school and that her boy friend was 23yrs old. We were crushed but hoped that when she was sent to bootcamp she would leave this young man that should have been aressted for molestation. 1wk after her 18th b-day and 1wk before before she left for bootcamp she called and said I am marrying Bruno in the morning. Now we were realy crushed. My sister then called and said that this guy was an illigal immagrant from Brazial and that they all lived in the same apartment with his mom and brother that were all illigals too. Now she has been discarged from the army she now has a baby. He the mother and the brother all work under the table so they don’t pay taxes, he gave my daughter VD, the mother refuses to learn english, they all fight all the time the hole time my daughter was here with the baby her bipolar was very evidant. The dad and grandmother have been caught playing with the babys peinus, they have told my daughter that they will take him out and teach him about sex the way the Brazilians do by forceing him to do it.And because of the state my daughter is in right now she thinks that its all her and she is ready to go to a phsyc ward and leave the baby in their care. We don’t know what to do any more can someone PLEASE help us?

    Posted by: Kathy Groebner at September 22, 2006 8:58 PM
    Comment #188447

    I believe that what Mr.Martin said is not true. Illegal Immigrants help the United States economy like the United States citizens do. The views which Mr.Martin gives can be found all the way to the right. If illegal immigrants are criminals then all our ancestors where criminals as well. The United States has always been based on imigration. Understand that people who come to this country are human beings trying to have a better life for them and their family. They pick our produce, with out food we would be hungry, would we like higher prices for fruits and vegs? If you do then hey talk to your senetor or local politician to do something about it. THe United States needs immigrants even if they are illigal. If the United States did want to kick all of the Illegal immigrants out they would have done it by now and millions of people would be back in their country, but why hasn’t the United States done this? If many of you care about people who live in poverty around the world then why is it that you believe helping illigal immigrants out is a bad thing? Many students are able to get a good education and make something of themselves here in the land of oppurtunity. As Americans we need to see the benefits that are reached through this. Some of you might say that there is a “Legal” process for immigrants to migrate into the United States but that legal process is a very long process which takes years for some and some can’t stand living in poverty another day. You can relate this illegal imigration with the under ground rail road, at that time the African American slaves werent considered citizens in the south and they escaped the south. I dont know if any of you would like it if they got all the African Americans from the South that lived in the North and sent them back to the fields.
    Put yourself in there shoes and you might change your mind. Building a fenceor putting more bodys on the border isnt going to stop Illigal immigrants from coming into the United States, they come to find shelter from the strom not to destroy the country believe me if they did it would have happened a long time ago. The Problem isnt with the immigrants but with the United States government itself. Figure it out.

    Posted by: Joseph at October 16, 2006 2:50 PM
    Comment #214935

    I dont understand why you dont seem to be refering to illegal immigrants as people too. They have the right to be treated the same as everyone else in this world. Im not sure if you recall the civil rights act of 1964, saying everyone must be treated equally no matter, race, sex, or religion. If america is “The land of freedom and oppurtunity,” then immigrants would be allowed to come to the U.S. Some immigrants may have a hard life in their home countries and deserve to come to America to have the oppurtunity for a better life.

    Posted by: Angel at April 3, 2007 11:56 PM
    Comment #219476

    Speak softly and carry a big stick.

    That’s the way you wanted it.

    So after your big money companies come to rob Latin American countries of their natural resources, killing anyone who stood on your path, pillaging, and corrupting governments to bend them to your liking, sowing poverty, slavery, and desperation among the people, and after you go around sending your marines wherever you wanted, and pushing and shoving every one else, including many countries where you went to terrorize and destroy the people, they way you did in Vietnam, the way you are doing it in Iraq…

    You complain that folks go up there to work hard and earn some money?

    Why, are you really that blind and ignorant that you cannot see you brought this upon yourselves?

    The land of North America doesn’t even belong to you grey slugs. It belongs to Native Americans.

    If current undocumented immigrants are felons, so are you, and all your forebearers who came to kill the rightful guardians of this land, and kill and pillage, the way you were, the way you are right now.

    You’re invaders.

    All of you.

    Nice work.

    Posted by: Eldan Cruz at May 5, 2007 2:34 AM
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