Third Party & Independents Archives

Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them

I thought the Bush Administration was supposed to usher in an era of American politics and leadership, one which returned honesty, humility, and integrity to the White House and Capitol Hill. Not so, it would seem, not so at all; every day seems to bring revelations of new Republican wrongdoing. One has to wonder where will it all end.

Today Tom Delay admitted that he had once again thumbed his pasty nose at the law and the rules of the House by failing to disclose contributions to his legal defense fund. Senate Majority leader Bill Frist continues to obfuscate the truth about his HCA stock sell which netted him million of dollars days before the company reported deepening losses. And then there is what is now being referred to as Plamegate a deepening scandal in which now the Vice President may now be knee deep in, and has lied about, both to the American people and perhaps to a Federal Grand Jury.

It is the height of irony and hypocrisy that some high ranking Republican politicians and political pundits actually have the audacity to advance the notion that perhaps lying to Federal Grand Jury is not such a bad thing after all. Excuse me, but didn’t the Republicans impeach a President over perjury charges? How now is it okay for high government officials to stay in office for the same offense? Do they (the Republicans) think our memory that short? They must to spew such nonsense.

Posted by V. Edward Martin at October 26, 2005 5:46 PM
Comments
Comment #88196

Excuse me, but didn’t the Republicans impeach a President over perjury charges? How now is it okay for high government officials to stay in office for the same offense?

It became ok when Slick Willie beat the rap.

If indictments are handed down those indicted need to step down. If they will or not is to yet be seen. But if they don’t, that’s ok. After all Slick Wille didn’t step down.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 26, 2005 6:36 PM
Comment #88205

Ron-
You do understand that every person who gets indicted but doesn’t leave their post will be an object demonstration of this administration’s tolerance for incompetence and malfeasance, don’t you? Clinton’s behavior was relatively minor(the reason he probably didn’t resign) but even then, it was enough of a black mark on the Democratic party that the Gore Campaign fatally distanced itself from the popular 42nd president, fearing the association of his scandal.

What makes things worse for the Republicans is the unrepentant attitude, and the persistent rationalization of wrongdoing. Instead of shedding the dark cloud by repudiating the behavior, they’ve contented themselves with short-term spin.

But spin is a transformation (geometrically speaking) that doesn’t change one’s position by itself. The irregularities remain. The facts don’t change to suit the fictions. Bad problems get worse.

Ultimately, rationalization of the GOP Leadership’s behavior is not in the best interests of those who want the party to retain power.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 26, 2005 7:34 PM
Comment #88210

Here’s a recent quote regarding just one of the players in this tragedy:

“Mr. Frist keeps lying,” said Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a liberal watchdog group that has filed a Senate Ethics Committee complaint about Frist’s HCA holdings and will submit a revised one today. “He’s killing his own political career. Nobody else has to do a thing to him, because he’s just imploding.”

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 26, 2005 8:14 PM
Comment #88216

It is a given that Democrats have Sex Scandals while Republicans have Money and Abuse of Power Scandals.

It says something about the followers of Republicans that they equate personal/private behavior with professional behavior. It is far better to have a President who abuses his power and endangers the country than one who gets fellatio.

Posted by: Aldous at October 26, 2005 8:37 PM
Comment #88217

Ron—

I could have sworn that Clinton went through the process and was exonerated by the Senate. Just because Clinton was not convicted doesn’t mean the crime is any less severe; that notion is ridiculous.

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at October 26, 2005 8:43 PM
Comment #88221

That whole Clinton business was just people getting other peoples knickers in a tryst or was it a twist, and someone swallowing someones elses pride. Close, but cigar - ot was there a cigar in there somewhere? Wasn’t it just a case of Monica slicking Bill’s willy? Not a bad little filly, she could come into my humidor any day. K Monica? ;-)

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at October 26, 2005 9:18 PM
Comment #88233

Clinton’s behavior was relatively minor(the reason he probably didn’t resign)

Perjury is perjury, Weather its the Republicans or Democrats.
Clinton admitted to perjury and still beat the rap. If he can, why cann’t these guys?
O yeah, I forgot, Clinton is a Democrat so it’s ok for him to committ perjury.
Of coarse nobody in this case is admitting to anything. But youall have them indicted, tried, convicted, and hung. And indictments haven’t even come down yet.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 26, 2005 10:24 PM
Comment #88239

Once again…

To a Republican…

Perjury on a Blowjob = Perjury on National Security Investigation

Nice priorities Ron…

Posted by: Aldous at October 26, 2005 10:47 PM
Comment #88242

Aldous, Ron is right after all: how a president having a blowjob could actually focus on national security issues!?

;-)

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at October 26, 2005 11:34 PM
Comment #88251

Perjury before a grand jury is serious business, and you’ll find many Republicans, myself included, who won’t defend any fellow Republicans on that score once and if we know it actually occured. If you’re guilty, then you should suffer the consequences of your actions—end of story.

However, it DOES need to be demonstrated as a fact first. Accusations by partisans are not facts, and even indictments only mean that there is reasonable cause to take it to trial, not indesputable proof that it occured.

I never supported the direction taken by the Clinton investigation in the first place, but the fact that he committed perjury was completely clear cut. There was no way he could blame a faulty memory or an incomplete knowledge of the facts. You don’t simply “forget” things like that.

Contrast that will Hillary Clinton’s testimony about the McDougals and the Whitewater loan. Before the grand jury, she denied knowing or remembering a number of things about the case which contradicted the testimony of others, written documents, and even her own statements.

Prosecuters declined to prosecute her for pejury, however, because it was at least plausible that she really didn’t have a perfect memory about every detail. The point is not that Hillary Clinton was a liar, but that giving incorrect testimony is not in itself perjury.

Posted by: sanger at October 27, 2005 12:47 AM
Comment #88273

Sanger, you’re right about perjury being serious. As a Clinton supporter, I was relieved when he was acquitted by the Senate on the impeachment matter, but still believe he should have resigned. If he had, then I think we would have be living in a markedly different political landscape right now. Regardless of party affiliation, perjury is serious. Clinton should have resigned. If Rove, Libby, Cheney, whomever are indicted and found guilty of committing perjury, then they should suffer the consequences. This needs to be black and white, and not as Kay Bailey Hutchison has said “a technicality”.

People need to be held accountable for their actions. If this bunch did what they are accused of, then they all should go. I also believe the President has to take some accountability here as well. He needs to clean house, and bring new staff in and commit to the country a more open government than before and a zero tolerance policy for this type of behavior. Both parties have behaved badly over the years with this stuff. “No controlling Legal Authority” regarding Gore’s fund-raising shenanigans. Dan Rostenkowski, Traficanti, Clinton, Bob Packwood, Bob Montgomery, Newt Gingrich, Jim Wright, Oliver North, Admiral Poindexter, Caspar Weinberger, Hamilton Jordan, Bert Lance, it goes on and on and on. It’s no wonder why the general public has such a visceral distrust of politicians..

A pox on all their houses.

Posted by: Dennis at October 27, 2005 8:54 AM
Comment #88277
Aldous, Ron is right after all: how a president having a blowjob could actually focus on national security issues!?

Well, perhaps he started calling out the names of undercover female CIA agents …

Posted by: bobo at October 27, 2005 10:11 AM
Comment #88289

Clinton clearly mislead America over some hanky-panky in the Oval Office, but technically, he did not commit perjury.

Posted by: American Pundit at October 27, 2005 10:47 AM
Comment #88290

What Clinton did was wrong. He perjured himself. But resign? To survive impeachment with the American people on his side, and then resign? If Americans wanted him out bad enough, he would have taken Nixon’s route, and quit to avoid being fired (impeached, that is).

Bush? I don’t know yet. But should any of his people be indicted, they would do well to resign. The will of the American people would go against any politician who protects an indicted official.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 27, 2005 10:51 AM
Comment #88292

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
There’s an imbalance of power between government and The People.
The People probably have only two choices:
(1) continue on this path that threatens our future (it is certainly the long path back to courage, responsibility, freedom, and abundance);
(2) or, take action now to oust the PC (Political Class) that has cleverly wrestled more than their fair share of power from the people.

There’s one easy, simple, safe, inexpensive, non-partisan way to peacefully force reform and restore a balance of power (not merely shift it), but it means The People must recognize the reason government is irresponsible and unaccountable, is their fault too, by continuing to empower the Political Class to continue to simply take turn being irresponsible and unaccountable too. If enough incumbents are ousted (for several elections), until government becomes responsible and accountable, then they will improve, and perhaps, even develop some peer-pressure to police their own ranks.

And, we should expect government to pass a few simple tests, such as pass ONE PURPOSE PER BILL, campaign finance reform, fix the costly and abused tax system, and agree upon and adequately address this nation’s top 10 most serious, non-contentious, most no-brainer problems threatening the future and security of the nation.

If we wait and let this problem resolve itself the hard way, there will be much pain and unhappiness. Perhaps we can learn from history, and avoid the cycle of insanity.

If you think government is responsible, think about the pork-barrel, graft, and waste, such as $100,000 for the Tiger Woods foundation, instead of body armour or amrour for Humvees. Think about $5000 for gold embosed playing cards for Air Force One (I guess Cheney needs something to play solitaire with). This is how Congress and the Executive branch are making tough decisions. Hell, why not vote yourself a raise and some cu$hy perks and benefits superior to Social Security and Medicare. In fact, why vote…make it automatic (Oh, they already did that). They are litterally wasting lives (indirectly) by their irresponsible negligence.
For thousands of more disgusting examples of pork-barrel, waste, graft, and corruption, see cagw.org to see who wins the Pork-Barrel award of the week.

So, please put don’t be seduced into the petty partisan politics and clever distractions to keep us from seeing what is going on. Try being non-partisan for a moment. I know it’s hard, because it took me 47 years to finally see through it, and see they the main parties are just taking turns being irresponsible and unaccountable.

That’s why it doesn’t seem to matter who we vote for. It’s not because we’re all bad jugdges of character. It’s because the federal government is dysfunctional. There’s an easy, safe, quick way to remedy that. The hard part is getting people to let go of their misplaced partisan loyalties.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 27, 2005 10:54 AM
Comment #88314

That’s why it doesn’t seem to matter who we vote for. It’s not because we’re all bad jugdges of character. It’s because the federal government is dysfunctional. There’s an easy, safe, quick way to remedy that. The hard part is getting people to let go of their misplaced partisan loyalties.
Posted by: d.a.n at October 27, 2005 10:54 AM

As my brother-in-law says d.a.n, it doesn’t matter who you vote for, the Government always wins!

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at October 27, 2005 12:18 PM
Comment #88336

Paul in Euroland,
The funny (really incredulous) thing, is that the means to remedy is there right under our nose: our vote
The hard part (and I’d admit I was fooled too for decades) is convincing people that the two main parties are just taking turns using and abusing the people, while (ironically) the people empower them to keep doing it.

Some people may never reject the partisan politics. They seem too fond of wallowing in the petty bickering and demonizing of each other, while simultansously pulling the wool over all the voter’s eyes.

If you a politician (part of the Political Class), it’s a hell of a deal. You can be irresponsible day in and day out, still collect a check, cu$hy pension, perk$, superior benefit$, and even if you ever get caught and convicted (even if you plead guilty), you can get a presidential pardon (like the 140 felons that Clinton pardoned….I don’t know if there were any Republicans on that list).

It would be nice if we didn’t have to learn this lesson again (the hard way). It really seems like an 80 year cycle similar to the one that Harry S. Dent refers to in his book: http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_13/b3674175.htm

Posted by: d.a.n at October 27, 2005 1:50 PM
Comment #88383

Philippe Houdoin
Aldous, Ron is right after all: how a president having a blowjob could actually focus on national security issues!?

It has nothing to do with national security, BUT EVERYTHING to do with the fact that he lied under oath to Congress when he told them that he DIDNOT have sex with his intern. He later admitted to lieing to them when he ADMITTED to having sex with her.
That is perjury by anyones books, unless of coarse your liberial I reckon.
This doesnot in any way excuse Rove, Cheney, or anyone from perjury.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 27, 2005 4:56 PM
Comment #88385

d.a.n
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
There’s an imbalance of power between government and The People.
The People probably have only two choices:
(1) continue on this path that threatens our future (it is certainly the long path back to courage, responsibility, freedom, and abundance);
(2) or, take action now to oust the PC (Political Class) that has cleverly wrestled more than their fair share of power from the people.

100% correct. Your also 100% correct on the rest of your post.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 27, 2005 5:03 PM
Comment #88389

Paul in Euroland
As my brother-in-law says d.a.n, it doesn’t matter who you vote for, the Government always wins!

And the policitians are relying on that sort of attitude to keep them in power.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 27, 2005 5:05 PM
Comment #88397

Actually Ron, it was an admittedly feeble attempt at levity. The real problem, at least in my country, is that many people who are reaching the age of majority, are totally apathetic to the political system, and equally disinterested in the political parties. Now if you knew our political parties, you might think there was some justification for that attitude, tho’ I suspect they’re not hugely different from your breed over there. It seems that in many Western societies of plenty, people don’t have the same engagement, unless there is for example a war going on.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at October 27, 2005 6:13 PM
Comment #88399

Politicians are smug and think they’re safe, but they’re also hoping The People, third parties, and independents never discover and realize how truly simple, easy, quick, safe, logical, effective, inexpensive, non-partisan, and responsible it would be if voters merely decided they were sick and tired and not gonna take it anymore, and vote non-incumbent, and oust the “Political Class” that has cleverly wrestled away their unfair share of power from The People, and do so with nothing more than the wise use of their vote.

Also, The People need to start being concerned about some very serious problems facing the nation, and growing in number and severity. They must not be lulled into a false sense of security merely because politicians choose to ignore these problems, for fear of tackling tough issues for fear of risking re-election. Unfortunately, in our dysfunctional, bass-ackwards government, politicians are incented to do nothing, and that’s pretty much what they do, despite their claims of doing very hard, complex, difficult, work. Right. It’s not rocket-science, despite them trying to lead voters to think it is, to look up to them, to honor and praise them, and beg for their attention. I’m tired of their crap, and I’m voting non-incumbent from now on (for a very long time), until government implements simplifications for transparency so we can see what they’re up to, and starts to adequately and earnestly address this nation’s top 10 most pressing problems, and also make some obvious, no-brainer, uncontentious changes.

Sounds impossible ?
Not at all.
It’s the easiest thing to do.
The People simply have to choose to be responsible to peacefully force government to be peaceful too.

All other approaches lack one important ingredient: Peaceful Force

That’s why all other approaches fail.

But think about it. What is a vote for ?
If everyone continues to vote for and empower irresponsible government, that’s exactly the end result. That’s what we have now, because we’ve been duped. I admit to being duped for years. No more though. It’s now all too clear what the two main parties have been up to, limiting our choices to just them two, while simply takin’ turns, gettin’ theirs, wasting the tax payers time, money, and lives, and being fiscally and morally bankrupt.

You have to admit, it’s a very clever system.
Take the single-party voting lever for instance.
They made it easy to vote straight ticket.
So, lazy voters do it.
But, it’s hard to know who or what everyone is.
So, that’s not really the only solution.

And think about the way the two main parties block access of third parties and independents to ballots, debates, media, and the democratic process. Yep, they’ve got it pretty cozy, all fat and happy.

And think about the clever, deceiving way politicians seduce The People into their petty partisan politics over things that don’t matter much, while everyone (by design) forgets that government is failing us miserably.

And, what about Congress voting itself rai$e$, perk$, superior benefits, and multi-million dollar pen$ions? It’s disgusting. And, how about the infamous filabuster. What a great time-waster and distraction.

And, what about Congress voting for pork-barrel, graft, and waste, when some of our troops don’t have body armour? What about that ?

It’s way out of whack ! (putting it mildly)
Only The People can fix it, and if they don’t they’ll most likely wish they had done it sooner than later, because later will be the hard way, and many are going to be very unhappy.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 27, 2005 6:36 PM
Comment #88400

Paul in Euroland
We have the same problem over here.
My oldest granchild is 12 and told me the other day that he couldn’t see any use in voting sense it wouldn’t make any differance in the way things are done in DC. I told him the samething I told you.
I’ve had young people older than him tell me the same thing.
It’s that ‘Business as usuall’ attitude in DC that’s causing this. These kids have been seeing politicians promise great things to get elected, or reelected, and then do just the opposite so long that they have no trust or intrest in politics.
Maybe youall should start an anti-incumbent movement like the one that has being started here.
www.void.poliwatch.org/ They have a new link but I forget what it is. Maybe someone with a better memory can give it to you.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 27, 2005 6:37 PM
Comment #88402

d.a.n.
All other approaches lack one important ingredient: Peaceful Force

Only The People can fix it, and if they don’t they’ll most likely wish they had done it sooner than later, because later will be the hard way, and many are going to be very unhappy.

I sure hope the people will choose Peaceful Force over the hard way. The hard way will cost alot of citizens their lives.
The one thing that I dread more than anything else is the day may come when I’ll have to make a choise between excepting a corrupt Government or firing on the country that I proudly served for 20 years.
I PRAY TO GOD THAT DAY WILL NEVER COME!
To tell the truth I really don’t know hoe I’d choose.


Posted by: Ron Brown at October 27, 2005 6:54 PM
Comment #88408

Ron,
Revolution or civil war would be the worst case, but not impossible.
Most likely, if the government continues to be fiscally and morally bankrupt, we will be facing a Great Depression.
The ingredients for a Great Depression are already in the pot, simmering.
No single problem may be much of a threat, but our many serious problems growing worse everyday, could culminate to create the perfect storm; and economic melt-down.

The ingredients are there in that list of serious problems. Something like an energy shortage could be the last straw, when combined with a default on over $1 billion per day in interest alone on $8 trillion National Debt, 77 million aging baby boomers stop paying as much tax, and start expecting to draw Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the GPBGC and pensions $1.6 trillion in the hole, a continual loss of lives and money in IRAQ, continued government spending, borrowing, tax increases, and printing more money, etc.

And, that’s the short list. A couple of these combined or occurring at the same time has the potential to unravel our economy and drastically change life as we now know it. This is not the ravings of a lunatic. Several respected economists see the same thing coming. 77 million aging baby boomers is a major factor in the models used by economists. Baby boomers will stop earning as much, and stop spending as much. This economy has been carried a long ways by the consumers. What happens when 1/4 of the population is now riding in the wagon, instead of pushing it?

We’re all about to find out how hard it really is to all live at the expense of everyone else.

What’s amazing is how government ignores all of it, and tries to distract us with filabusters, Supreme Court Justice appointments, United Nations appointments, Terrorist Level Alerts, negative campaigning, and the clever and seductive trickery to get us to all wallow in the time & energy wasting petty partisan bickering and heated divisiveness.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 27, 2005 7:23 PM
Comment #88412

I’d rather have a Great Depression over war any day. And if it comes to a Great Depression it’ll be a Great Great Depression and make the Great Depression in the 30’s look like a mild recession.
Lets hope and work for the day to come REAL soon that the voters will wakeup to what’s going on and kick the slim balls out of office.
BTW, I like your idea using PC(Political Class) for our current crop of incumbents. And it’s the PC that is ruining this country.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 27, 2005 7:54 PM
Comment #88424

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
1984 is 20 years late, but it’s here.

Posted by: Dave at October 27, 2005 9:45 PM
Comment #88429

Wouldn’t it be great to imagine: patriotic Representatives who have an attitude of fiscal responsibility and independence in thought? The feds. would only have a concern for the country as a whole, fundamentally based on the principles of our Constitution? A calling to use their talents and hard work to address the greatest threats to our sovereignty and every citizen’s quality of life? That they treat the people, the owners of this country, with humble regard, and special interests with disgust? As the only superpower in the world, we would be the light on the hill, for other nations to respect and emulate. Is that asking too much?

Posted by: David Weller at October 27, 2005 10:44 PM
Comment #88439

Aldous:
“It is far better to have a President who abuses his power and endangers the country than one who gets fellatio.”

The priority emphasis on the right never fails to amaze me. As does the fact that they’re still yakking away about Bill’s fling after all these years of Bush’s lies and massive blunders.

Paul in Euroland — great impersonation of Groucho Marx!!!

Phillipe:
“how a president having a blowjob could actually focus on national security issues!?”

I believe that Clinton’s powers of focus were really rather amazing… Maybe even equal to his sex drive! ;^)

V. Edward — judging by the latest polls the majority of the American people are as outraged by this administration, and the Republican House and Senate leaders as you and I are.
I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop on Traitorgate. Whatever Fitzgerald announces should be interesting to say the least…

Posted by: Adrienne at October 28, 2005 12:10 AM
Comment #88459

Aldous:

Once again…To a Republican… Perjury on a Blowjob = Perjury on National Security Investigation Nice priorities Ron…

Posted by Aldous at October 26, 2005 10:47 PM

My biggest concern with Clinton’s behavior was that his affair involved national security. It is a well known and well established fact that Lewinsky was in the Oval Office while Clinton spoke about Balkan troop movements with Alabama Representative Sonny Callahan. This is by any definition a breach of national security, unless of course you want to believe that an intern had national security clearance.

The lie wasn’t really just about a blowjob. The lie was about bypassing rules of national security. That there were no apparent problems as a result of his bypassing national security does not condone that he did so.

I’d appreciate your response to THIS point, as opposed to your attempt to suggest that it was “just a blowjob”. I’ll await your response.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at October 28, 2005 7:58 AM
Comment #88489

JBOD, how come nobody went after Clinton for that? And wasn’t Eisenhower doing the same thing with his driver while movin division pins around the ETO map?

Posted by: American Pundit at October 28, 2005 12:33 PM
Comment #88491

JBOD, I just looked it up. They weren’t discussing troop movements. Apparently nothing they said was classified. There goes your national security argument out the window.

Posted by: American Pundit at October 28, 2005 12:36 PM
Comment #88492
What Clinton did was wrong. He perjured himself.

Stephen, Clinton clearly mislead America over some hanky-panky in the Oval Office, but technically, he did not commit perjury.

Posted by: American Pundit at October 28, 2005 12:38 PM
Comment #88517
a deepening scandal in which now the Vice President may now be knee deep in, and has lied about, both to the American people and perhaps to a Federal Grand Jury.

Exactly when did the Vice President lie or perjured himself?

Posted by: Rhinehold at October 28, 2005 2:24 PM
Comment #88518

Well, one of the lying liars has been indicted and rightfully so, and had resigned. Now for the other lying lairs; I am chagrined that Rove number wasn’t punched, but there is hope…

According to MSNBC: “The five-count indictment accuses Libby of lying about how and when he learned about CIA official Valerie Plane’s identity in 2003 and then told reporters about it. The information was classified.

‘The charges allege that Libby lied to FBI agents who interviewed him on October 14 and November 26, 2003; committed perjury while testifying under oath before the grand jury on March 5 and March 24, 2004; and engaged in obstruction of justice by impeding the grand jury’s investigation,’ prosecutors said in a news release.”

Two down…

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at October 28, 2005 2:26 PM
Comment #88529

I’m sorry, V. Edward Martin, I thought the idea was to find out who was guilty and indict them, which appears to have happened. Not to ‘get them’.

Now, when did Cheney lie to the american people as you suggest?

Posted by: Rhinehold at October 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Comment #88536

Rhinehold—
I am sorry, I let glee get the better of me; of course Libby is innocent until proven guilty (wink, wink), and Delay as well. If only Clinton was shown such understanding and forbearance!

If memory serves me correctly (and it almost always does) Cheney appeared on one of the Sunday morning talk shows and stated that he had never heard of Wilson or his wife when in fact he had discussed both with his Chief-of-Staff (you know the one who was just indicted) weeks earlier.

Posted by: V. Edward Martin at October 28, 2005 3:04 PM
Comment #88541
JBOD, how come nobody went after Clinton for that? And wasn’t Eisenhower doing the same thing with his driver while movin division pins around the ETO map?

Posted by American Pundit at October 28, 2005 12:33 PM

AP:

Please please please tell me you arent simply going to rely on the “they did it too” argument. Seriously, I stopped accepting that from my children before they were in first grade. And unless you are of that age, I shant accept it from you.

As far as whether Callahan and Clinton talked about troop movements (I think they actually talked about funding for the troops), the point is that Lewinsky was an INTERN, and shouldn’t have been privy to the conversation.

Lastly, it debunks the idea that Clinton’s affair was a ‘private’ matter. If he was getting blowjobs while doing his job, then it was a public matter. Thank you for agreeing to that.

But Clinton isnt the emphasis of this thread. The link to Clinton is that he did not tell the truth, and he paid a price for it. Libby is accused of not telling the truth, and will be tried in court. As Pat Fitzgerald said himself, Libby is innocent until proven guilty…let the trial begin.

Posted by: jeobagodonuts at October 28, 2005 3:33 PM
Comment #88571

Well it looks like Fitzgerld thinks there’s enough to bring charges against Libby. And unless their just out to get somebody usually prosecutors don’t go for indictments unless they think they can win.
Now I’m going to wait to see what the trial brings out.
I just heard on the news that Libby has resigned, as well he should’ve.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 28, 2005 6:01 PM
Comment #88723
Dave Weller wrote: Wouldn’t it be great to imagine: patriotic Representatives who have an attitude of fiscal responsibility and independence in thought?
Yes it would. Perhaps, with the proper incentive, they might even start to police their own ranks. But, it’s unlikely the do it themselves. We, The People, The Voters, must now do our part. It’s simply, easy, inexpensive, non-partisan, safe, easy to communicate, easy to understand, responsible, and possesses the peaceful force required to balance power (not merely shift it). Vote Out Incumbents. They’ll get the message. If they don’t, their career will be short, indeed.
Ron Brown wrote: And if it comes to a Great Depression it’ll be a Great Great Depression and make the Great Depression in the 30’s look like a mild recession.
It very much has that potential, for many reasons. An aging population, energy vulnerability, limited growth potential due to very cheap labor over seas and increasing competition, astronomical National Debt, over $1 billion per day in interest alone, inflation that’s sure to follow. But, it takes decades before the impact of such behaviour is felt. Well, the federal government has now been spending and borrowing and growing the National Debt EVERY year for the last 45 years. We’re about to start feeling the consequences of such fiscal & moral bankruptcy. In my opinion (and it could be sooner), it could be as soon as 2009 when the $#!+ hits the fan. An economic melt-down (a serious recession at the least) is in the works. Only immediate action and an end to fiscal irresponsibility NOW can avoid it. What will your life be like in the next economic down-turn ? What about all those Americans in debt up to their eyeballs (e.g. a record $40 trillion in personal debt nation wide)? All these things are the ingredients of a disaster in the making. Posted by: d.a.n at October 29, 2005 11:18 AM
Comment #89173

AP:

Once again, deafening silence from you in response to my posts. Seems like a trend. Of course, if you simply wait long enough, the other threads bounce the ones where you have no response off the list, so you can then deny their existence.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at October 31, 2005 3:01 PM
Comment #89781

Morning All:

To the People who beleive this is the only way read on Please:
If we threw everyone that ever lies in office or during their campaigns into prison, We’d not have any room, anywhere to hold the murderers, rapists, Crooks…etc. Though I find it despicable That Former President Clinton Lied about receiving a “BLOW JOB” from Miss Lewinsky. I am even more appalled and disgusted that it COST THE US TAXPAYERS, MORE THAN $42,000,000 to find out what otherwise was no ones business. Mr. Brown do you understand my outrage or like the rest of the GOP, do you want to be in my bedroom also?

Yes, Clinton lied, there I have said it. However, no one died because of his lie. The same can not be said of bushco and friends. 2001 and growing ever larger every day. I’ll bet that “scooter” is pardoned before ever going to trial.

Also while on the subject, I saw this bumpersticker the other day and when I read this blog it seemed very fitting that I share it with all of you here.
It read as follows:

“Deserters should be in prison,
Not in the Whitehouse”

Seems that I can not let that pass, since Emporer George II, Has not fully accounted for his service time. I don’t think he should hide it any more, especially if he has nothing to hide.

As Always,
Wayne

Posted by: wayne at November 2, 2005 1:53 PM
Comment #89790

JBOD:
Long time no see, how are you my friend, brace yourself here because I don’t know if you realize it or not. “All members of a President’s Staff, Go through, THOROUGH background checks before they are allowed to work in or around the President. That includes interns. Just thought I’d share that tidbit with you.
As Always,
Wayne

Posted by: wayne at November 2, 2005 2:10 PM
Comment #90009
COST THE US TAXPAYERS, MORE THAN $42,000,000 to find out what otherwise was no ones business
That is ridiculous too. Let’s build more prisons. Posted by: d.a.n at November 3, 2005 7:55 AM
Comment #90937

There is an article on the Apollo Alliance homepage regarding taking back the House and Senate in the next election. I believe it will take an all out effort to make this happen. Whether it is Democrats or a third party, there MUST be a CLEAR message the American people can understand and get behind. This article outlines several things necessary to move the country away from arch-conservatism toward a more liberal agenda. The Apollo Alliance also provides a ten point plan to greatly reduce our dependence on oil for energy. Several state Governors have signed onto the agenda. What is needed now, is someone to push, cajole, needle and encourage the liberal progressives into a united front. Without a solid message we liberal minded folks might just as well shut up and let the neocons have their way.

Posted by: jcp at November 7, 2005 9:53 AM
Comment #92565

The new bankruptcy laws will not help the working man and woman. Nor will it help the retired people of our nation. Most of the people affected will lose everything they have worked for their whole lives. It will destroy the small business as well, if they make under $200,000 dollars a year. Not to mention if he has any sort of problems combined with little or no sales. If you have an illness and no insurance, your financial future is bleak to say the least. What’s left but debtors prison or old people and children sleeping in the streets? Homeless and starving? The people of America need your help! The working men and women need you to help us out and to do the job you were supposed to do in the first place. It is after all ‘a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.”

Over the State Median Income: The Means Test
The new means test is designed to force some debtor with
Income over the state median to file a repayment plan under
Chapter 13 instead of a full discharge under Chapter 7. First, you
Must apply strict expense caps intended for IRS tax collection
Cases. After these caps and other allowances have been applied to
Each expense category, the remaining income is added together to
Establish whether the client is able to make payment under
Chapter 13. BAPCPA ignores the fact debtors may not
Actually, have much of this money left over each month. Further
There is no exemption from the means test for debtors who fall in a
Chapter 13. These folks will apparently fall into a “no man’s land”
Where they will be ineligible for Chapter 7 due to the means test,
And unable to complete a Chapter13 because the payments are
not realistic.

Posted by: lewis blair at November 13, 2005 5:08 PM
Comment #92844

Afternoon All:
Thought I’d throw this into the fire for the right wing reader: How about a return to the Debtor’s Prisons of Old? Who’s for that?

Just A Thought:
Wayne

Posted by: wayne at November 14, 2005 3:26 PM
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