Third Party & Independents: Archives

The ‘Nazis’ didn’t do the damage.
Can you find any comparisons between New Orleans after Katrina and Toledo because a group was supposed to march?
Have Jesse, Al, and Louis shown up to defend the actions of the rioters yet? I’m sure they can find a way to blame it on Bush and the Republican Party and WHITE people in general.
The rioters have no one to blame but themselves.
It is a mindset encouraged by the likes of Jesse, Al, and Louis that causes people to react the way they do in situations like Katrina and Toledo.
I believe that if Martin Luther King were still alive the mindset would not be anything like it is today.
He wouldn’t have stood for it.

David,

I’m surprised you missed the real story here and went with the automatic ‘racism’ charge.

The reason the nazis were marching is because the black gangs were holding the neighborhoods hostage and the police were incapable of doing anything. The black gangs were attempting to use terrorism to shout down any opposition to their running of their neighborhoods.

Now, of course, I am totally against what the nazis represent, but are you seriously suggesting we should silence free speech because we don’t LIKE what they are saying?

Do you seriously believe that they black gangs were only rioting because the group was allowed to march for, oh, 10 minutes? For that their own neighborhoods had to be subjected to 4 hours of fear, hiding in their houses as these thugs burned down several building and looted legitimate businesses?

And the nazis are to blame for this?

The neighborhood where this took place was predominantly black and Polish.

If the local Polish residents had rioted, considering the horrors the Nazis committed against the Poles, it would have at least made a slight amount of sense.

The article David links to describes an 86 year old Polish gentleman escaping the flames when rioters set fire to a local pub.

The sick irony of the story is that this mob of criminals terrorized some of the same people once persecuted by the Nazis. Instead of protesting Nazis, these gangs BEHAVED like Nazis.

So what you guys are saying is that, compared with the Nazi march in Skokie, this was the right thing to do?

There really is nothing like a Nazi march, or a KKK rally in a minority neighborhood to calm things down.

Rhinegold, protesting the actions of gangs in a community is one thing, but doing so under a Nazi banner is not only morally reprehensible but counterproductive to your cause (I’m not saying that you’d disagree).

I don’t care if the Nazi demonstrators had a point—that point was negated by affiliating oneself with one of the greatest evils humanity has ever seen.

If I saw a group of Nazi demonstrators in my neighborhood, I would be filled with rage and might WANT to do something unwise, but fighting Nazism and what it represents can never excuse BECOMING just like the Nazis.

Freedom of speech, of the press, of affiliation, etc. means NOTHING if only means remaining civil to those with whom you already agree. So Nazis have every right to demonstrate and make their voices heard, as loathsome as those voices are.

These gang members were tapping into one of the tragic strains of contemporary politics: the knowledge if you can claim to be a victim yourself, you have the moral authority to vicimize others. I remember only too well how excuses were made during the Rodney King riots for those who expressed their racial grievances against whites by burning down Korean convenience stores.

I’m already disturbed by David’s comments here, though he has made the effort to be even-handed about this and I don’t agree that he’s made a “racism charge” so much as raised questions.

Are police seen as an extension of the mindset of the Neo Nazi Party? Should they be?

Is the Toledo police department an extension of Nazism? Of course not.

Rhinehold-
I saw these people on television chanting “white power”! These guys weren’t going “Oh Jeez, crime has just gotten so bad here, and the little kids (bless their hearts) were just in such great danger…”

The rioters broke the law. Simple as that. We don’t need to rationalize what is obviously abhorrent to the average American: white supremacy. If the gangs are taking over the place, that’s a job for the men in blue, not the ones in pointy white hats, figuratively speaking. They’ve got no rational business marching through that area. They were looking to provoke something, and unfortunately, some folks were stupid enough to grant them their wish. There’s a such thing as free speech, but as anybody who’s ever watched the early parts of Die Hard: With A Vengeance knows, there’s also a such thing as pushing it a little too far.

Stephen,

I listened to the planners of the march on Monday of this past week detailing why they were planning the march and that they WANTED this result, to bring out the gang members, provoke them and bring the conditions to light.

Now, of course I don’t agree with their actions, but their views and right to speak and demonstrate those views are their right as american citizens.

As for them calling upon the autrocities of the Nazis in Germany, these people genuinely feel that the holocaust was a lie (by jews who run everything) and that Hitler was a great leader and compassionate social visionary.

They are WRONG, but in their minds they are trying to provide a society that they feel is the best way to live. How is this any different than any other group doing the same? Religious right? Communists? Environmentalists? Other socialists? Libertarians?

Are we all willing to allow someone like the Nazi party to be silenced from marching and speaking their views (however vile) without considering what would happen if our views were to be the next on the list?

Rhinehold, no where in the article did I express any of my beliefs, save one: that the riot re-raises questions about race relations, police power, radical groups, and Constitutional issues, which in the minds of many Americans, are not yet resolved.

I find it quite interesting that the group involved in the looting,assaults and vandalism wasn’t the Nazis..and as per usual..(as in any event involving Nazis) they were blamed automatically for the cause of other peoples stupid actions.

In America you have a right to protest, but peacefully…That goes for EVERYONE…whether you like it or not…it’s not up to you, it’s what the constitution guarantees, for how long that lasts..

Nazis, Jews, Whites, Blacks, Martians..EVERYONE has the right to protest peacefully.

Should you ban Nazism? Then ban Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Communists too ect ect.

Why?

Hey, that’s only fair. Who are you to judge and ban one group of people against your ideals?

I don’t like squid, but i don’t ban it..i simply don’t eat it by choice.

Would I be pissed if the million man march rolled past my door…probably. Would i go assault people, loot items and vandalise other people’s property?…NO.

No Offence Intended In My Post But My point is..

People are responsible for their OWN actions.

Live Life And BE Happy

Reichman, would agree then that al-Queda should have the legal right to demonstrate peacefully and recruit new members in the streets of America?

David,

Reichman, would agree then that al-Queda should have the legal right to demonstrate peacefully and recruit new members in the streets of America?

I would say no — but there’s a difference between al-Queda and the Neo-Nazis. Last I checked, holding racist beliefs isn’t a crime, while terrorism is. If the Neo Nazis were committing criminal acts, or encouraging others to do so, then their march should have been stopped.

If an Islamic group wanted to hold a march to protest the same things that al-Queda is protesting (American presence in Saudi Arabia and Iraq, Israeli occupation of Palestine, etc.), then they would have every right to do so.

The point is, you are allowed to disagree with the majority, even to the point of offending the majority with your opinions. As long as you do not commit acts of violence, or encourage others to do so, you are protected by the 1st Amendment.

Hey Reichguy,

Did you ever think that just because you “CAN” do something, it doesn’t mean that you “SHOULD”?

The object lesson that these Nazi Bozo’s teach is they have the right to spread their hate anywhere they want with impunity, just BECAUSE they have the right to.
You don’t see these guys marching through lily white neighborhoods, do you?
The message these morons bring is one of intolerance and vitriol. They choose to march where they can cause the most violence and the most hate, so that they can be seen as the victims.

Rob, we agree entirely. But, that is not as widespread an opinion one would hope. The act of criminality invokes police power under our constitution, supposedly. But, it is not as clear a line as one would think. To verbally lend support to one who is going to commit a crime, is of itself, a crime.

Rocky, the Nazis got out of there awfully quick. I am not convinced their intent in marching was to protray themselves as victims. Reportedly, they marched in response to a white resident complaint in that neighborhood.

The police lost control of the situation, but, it is not clear the police acted irresponsibly. It would be interesting to know if the police pursue the rioters with the full force of their capability. It is possible they won’t because of the potential racial backlash against the police department, a problem already seething in America.

David,

“Rocky, the Nazis got out of there awfully quick. I am not convinced their intent in marching was to protray themselves as victims. Reportedly, they marched in response to a white resident complaint in that neighborhood.”

Yeah, but that has been their history, to go where the can cause the most controversy.
I don’t question their right to be there, I question the wisdom of the act.

Can’t you see the glee on their leader’s face, when they are “asked” to make a show of force in a mixed neighborhood?

These guys are not a group that should be taken seriously, except for the possible mayhem that they can incite.

I live in Toledo, so I have perhaps a different view of this situation.

So a few minor things.

A) The situation with the one man who the NSM used as the “cause” of this demonstration was not being beset by what anyone would call real gangs. It is an ongoing neighborhood squabble that involves a white and a black family and assorted junior high/middle schoolers.

B) Some parental control and neighborhood unity which somehow managed to appear when it was reported the NSM was coming would have prevented a majority of what led up to this. No one stepped forward to try to end this until it was already out of control. People were angry at what they perceived to be the police “protecting” the Nazis and several of the young men/teenagers used this as a reason for destruction.

C) Since the NSM was going to be walking down sidewalks no permit was necessary. There seems to be a huge problem in this area as far as people understanding what is allowed by our Constitution. There is no right to not be offended.

D) Thanks to the stupid behavior of those over-reacting to such a small group of NSM members homes and businesses have been damaged. It’s going to cost well over $100,000 just for the police/security expenses not to mention the damage done to police cars/ambulances and private property.

If people would just learn to not give into the desire to have to respond, if they would have as advised stayed home or if they had to make a statement participated in the Erase the Hate function the NSM would have come, walked down the street and left without being able to declare a victory thanks to the stupid behavior that was demonstrated by some of my fellow Toledoans. What a message it would have sent if 500 people were at the Erase the Hate event and no one showed up to see the NSM even march.

Rocky, we agree. The greatest negative effect that can be wrought upon Nazi’s, is to publicly condemn what they stand for, and move on. White supremacy is the core organizing principle and fortunately, America has grown beyond that, legally, and even culturally to a large extent.

Lisa, excellent commentary. And thanks for the updated background information.

The Nazis march through a neighborhood and it’s ‘Them no good trouble making bunch of racist.’ The gang thugs of that same neighborhood then riot and burn the place down and it’s ‘They were only expressing themselves.’ While I find both the Nazis and the gang thugs repaulsive, the differance is the Nazis weren’t breaking any laws. The gang thugs were.
While the Constitution guarantees the Nazis the right to march and protest, it doesn’t guarantee them the right to do it in a place that can guarantee trouble will follow. Whatever city department it is that issues permitts for marches should have told the Nazis to march somewhere else.
While I believe the Nazis where most likely trying to stir up trouble, the blame for it lies with the gang thugs that where dumb enough to fall for it.
If the Nazis where to march through my home town I wouldn’t like it at all. But I wouldn’t burn the town down because of it. Neither would my neighbors, I hope.

It’s been an interesting experience as I’ve had some written contact with some of the NSM on and off my blog. It was obvious the main goal was to incite and to gain as much publicity that they could spin as possible. They did succeed thanks to the over-reaction.

What concerns me greatly is that there will be a repeat performance brought on by the local government’s public statments that the “next time” they will prevent the NSM in Court from coming. Since there was no requirement for a permit in this situation given where they were coming I fail to see how they can stop them. Further, given we as a city have already provided them with a huge publicity boost throwing down this type of a “challenge” almost guarantees that they will take advantage of it.

A friend of mine who is a journalist was there first hand to witness it. I was invited but decided since I’m not a real journalist to stay out of the way. Given what happened I’m glad I made that decision. His description of the events can be found Here as he covers it in alot more detail than I can.

Lisa Renee
I was working on my post when you posted yours.
So you can march in Toledo without a permit as long as you use the sidewalks and not the street. Interesting, most places I know of require a permitt regaurdless.
Anyway thanks for the update.

Ron, Initially I thought as you did and stated to Bill White that since he had no permit that he was not even sure a demonstration could take place. It was then I learned that for the numbers of people he was planning on bringing and the location being a walk down a city sidewalk no permit was necessary.

This was to initially be less than 2 dozen mainly local members of the NSM walking down that street dressed in full uniform. This was according to the initial press release, infact the city government learned of this march thanks to a local talk radio program informing them of the press release. It was then that the contact between the City and the NSM began as far as route/security, etc.

As a preface to my comments I state that I do not advocate or condone any Nazi activity of past or present.

That said, I am perplexed that posters here who have supported free speech, the right to demonstrate and even the right to say and portray derogatory things about the USA, even to the extent of desecrating the American Flag, are condemning their protest activities in Toledo.

Protesting under a Nazi Banner
How is this different than protesting against abortion under pictures of dead babies, protesting against war under banners with pictures of dead servicemen and women, burning your draft card, crating and provoking violence and discontent by camping out and building a mock cemetary at the President’s ranch?

These are all things which are distasteful to many but argued as permissible “rights” by most liberals.

Stephen Daugherty said
“I saw these people on television
chanting “white power”!”

Is this different than : “Bush is an idiot”, “One Nation, Under GOD, indivisible, etc”?

Stephen said
“They’ve got no rational business marching through that area. They were looking to provoke something, and unfortunately, some folks were stupid enough to grant them their wish.”

Of course they were looking to provoke something. That is the purpose of a demonstration. Remember Viet Nam War demonstrations, burning flags, sit ins, blockading abortion clinics, Cindy Sheehan.

All actions of provocation.

There is a distinct message in this thread that the liberals are willing to support as permissible only those things that meet their agendas.

David,

” Should our Constitution’s protection of civil liberties extend to protect a terrorist organization whose history is replete with genocide, torture, and hate?”

Absolutely!
I feel that they should .
American civil liberties would lose their meaning and importance if we start picking and choosing who deserves the protection of freedom of speech and the right to assemble. These civil liberties are precious to people of color, like myself.
Racism is alive and well in the U.S. but people like the NSM help to spotlight that fact and they force the rational and intellectual whites in this country to see how revolting racism really is. They have a right to hate and speak out against those of us that they hate. We don’t have to listen. The people who rioted in Toledo have helped the NSM. They have given them images that can be twisted, stereotypes for them to manipulate to validate their ignorant message of hate.
At least we know where the NSM stands. They’re not as subtle as some of the folks who responded to your post.

Rob Cotrell:

David asked:

Reichman, would agree then that al-Queda should have the legal right to demonstrate peacefully and recruit new members in the streets of America?

You replied:

there’s a difference between al-Queda and the Neo-Nazis. Last I checked, holding racist beliefs isn’t a crime, while terrorism is.

There is NO difference. The Neo-Nazis are INDEED a terrorist group just the same as Al Qaeda is a terrorist group.

Having said that, it certainly does not mean any of the individual people in either group has committed any illegal acts or is a terrorist.

The constitution, giving all the right to peaceful assembly, and freedom of speech, means BOTH groups have the right to their march.

Rhinehold wrote:

I listened to the planners of the march on Monday of this past week detailing why they were planning the march and that they WANTED this result, to bring out the gang members, provoke them and bring the conditions to light.

As part of the Bachelor’s of Criminal Justice curriculum at Ohio University, we were required to take a course in “terrorism.” As Rhinehold pointed out, the desired result IS overreaction!!!
On 9-11, Al Qaeda DEFINITELY wanted the US Government to do exactly as it did. OVER REACT!!

How many of us had even heard of Al Qaeda before then? Not too many. But most all of us have now!

So, how did our government respond? we declared war on IRAQ!

Some said (and rightly so…) Iraq? wait a minute, they were not involved! Others had differing opinions, what was the result? Chaos!

Whether or not you agree with the war in Iraq, you can certainly agree that it accomplished the desired result…WE ARE NOW the “DIVIDED States of America.”

My point here is there will always be incidents where one man’s free speech awakens FEAR, ANGER, TERROR, and ABHORRENCE in all of us.

Fortunately, the Constitution protects the right to free speech and assembly.

I can surely sympathize with the citizens of Toledo (gang or other) who erupted and lashed out at what it meant for this group to march through their city.

But, the recourse in any of the above mentioned situations is certainly NOT more violence. It not only reflects poorly on all who participated, but as Rhinehold points out, It helpes them accomplish their goal!!!

My two-cents worth, sassyliberal

Oh…My…God!

I’m actually agreeing with Andre!

The central theme of David’s post, seems to me, is not Nazis or gang thugs…but should the Constitution be subject to a “political correctness” sanitation.

Should we allow certain groups freedom of speech and should we restrict certain groups?

Now, exactly WHO are we going to appoint to be the decision maker as to who gets a voice and who doesn’t?

Who will be the person(s) responsible for saying “OK, the KKK can’t march…but the Black Panthers can”?

And if the KKK and the Black Panthers are considered not politically correct enough to have a public voice, who’s going to be the one who says that any group that promotes one skin color over another can’t have a public voice? Careful, now…that includes the Neo-Nazis, Crips, Bloods, Skinheads…and the NAACP and UNCF!

What about religion? What about the JDL? What about the Nation of Islam? What about al-Queda? What about Fundamentalists?

Are we to silence every group that we don’t agree with? Or do we live in a land that allows EVERYONE to have a voice…no matter how vile, hateful or ignorant that voice is?

No. That is the most fundamental part of our Constitution.

The people…ALL the people do have a voice. Even if it is racist, hate-filled or ignorant. And no one…NO ONE…has the right to silence that voice with their OWN racism, hatred or ignorance.

Ron Brown:

While the Constitution guarantees the Nazis the right to march and protest, it doesn’t guarantee them the right to do it in a place that can guarantee trouble will follow.

Yes it does. That is exactly what it means by freedom of assembly. Someone mentioned Martin Luther King earlier in this post…Don’t you think he and everyone else who bravely fought for equality knew they were going to “a place that can guarantee trouble will follow?”

While I believe the Nazis where most likely trying to stir up trouble, the blame for it lies with the gang thugs that where dumb enough to fall for it.

Absolutely!!!!

Lisa Renee:

Hear Hear!! I totally agree with all your comments and Thanks for elaborating on the situation.

sassyliberal

Is law enforcement (or a lack of it) also part of the problem? Too often, law enforcement is selective and some neighborhoods get better law enforcement, while others go largely ignored until they can no longer be ignored.

It’s a hard truth that in our form of government, we are obliged to listen to morons like the Neo Nazis spew their hate based credo. While you’d like to see nitwits like this silenced, the remedy is worse than the illness. Any abridgement of free speech should not be tolerated. So yes, these fools should be allowed to demonstrate (as long as they do it peacefully). My view of this is that if no one, and I mean no one attended, watched or responded to the Nazis, the KKK, the Aryan Nation, (name your hate group here), then they would eventually go away. The only reason they demonstrate is to incite a response, hopefully violent so they could claim their views are correct.

It is an enormous waste of time for anyone to pay these clowns serious attention.

David, I don’t think the rioters believe the police were an extension of the Nazis. I think it was just another set of idiots excuses to behave violently.

The only way a civilized society can deal with such groups is to judge them by what they do, not by what they are. When they break laws, we should punish them. This would include things like inciting violence, but we can’t make special rules for or against any group based on what they are.

There are plenty of racists and they now are equal opportunity from the Nazis to Farrakhan and probably to the gang members involved in the riots. Punish what they do when they do something illegal and enforce it even handedly.

Nazis in America are a pathetic bunch of losers. The more you let them be seen, the less people like them. They really can’t stand to be out in the light and fresh air. Keeping them under wraps increases their power.

“The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.” - Associate Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

Any moron can predict that a Nazi march in a poor black neighborhood is going to be met with violence. It should be much easier for a person of average or above average intelligence to predict.

There are immensely complicated social dynamics in play here that I would rather not get into. Suffice it to say that if the law is going to allow this type of demonstration in such a location it should be at the demonstrators’ own risk. They should not afford the demonstrators police protection, because the violence is unavoidable and unnecessary.

sassyliberal,

There is NO difference. The Neo-Nazis are INDEED a terrorist group just the same as Al Qaeda is a terrorist group.

There certainly IS a difference, even if it is nothing more than a matter of intensity. Expressing racist opinions is quite a bit different than, say, genocide, even if they both originate with the same emotion. As for whether they are a “terrorist” group, I’m still waiting for a definition of “terrorism”…

But on the crux of your argument, I agree entirely. The black rioters in Toledo are the ones that made the march a success, just as the Bush administration made the 9/11 terrorist attack a success.

For these folks (Neo Nazis, Al Queda, etc.), it’s not about the RESULT of their work — it’s all about our REACTION to it.

What Darrious, sassy, et. al. are encroaching upon is “guilt by association.” We can be pretty certain that members of the KKK have lynched people. That does not mean an individual member of the KKK has killed someone illegally. We must extend that to the nzaiholes marching is not a crime by itself (so long as they don’t specifically ‘incite’, which they are trianed to go up to the line, but not past).

In America, even with the Patriot act and some exceptions in Gitmo, citizens have to be proven guilty before sentencing and no matter how repulsive, people must be given their right to peaceably assemble.

Darrius,

Where do you draw the line? You seem to be saying that performing offensive, yet otherwise legal activities (Neo Nazi march) around people who have a predisposition to violence (gangs in poor black neighborhoods) deserves no protection from society. Other actions that could be included in this are:

* engaging in an inter-racial marriage in Mississippi;
* serving on the police force in L.A.;
* wearing a Yankees jersey in Boston;
* being black in certain counties in Arkansas
* being white in certain other counties in Arkansas;
* voting Democrat in Texas;
* cheering for Jeff Gordon at Daytona….

Are these people who are just asking for trouble? Since any moron can predict that these things are going to cause violence, should the police look the other way when such cases occur?

Nazis in America are thankfully totally irrelevant; they represent no real constituency; they have no political power and are low in numbers; and while they occasionally create a ruckus—and an opportunity for liberal self-congratulation—they really are a distraction from the real race problems in America.

Two Nazi dirtbags in Jasper TX murdered James Byrd for no good reason. The country flipped out as if this unusual crime represented some trend or some hidden glimpse into racial reality. Now they’re in jail awaiting trial, and we’ve hardly seen an explosion of white on black crime. Meanwhile, since that terrible incident, hundreds of whites and blacks have been murdered, raped, and robbed by American black males, a group that has a murder rate 7-10X the white rate. Think about that disparity.

The real race problem in America is black social pathology: high crime, high rates of antisocial behavior, high rates of illegitimacy, and anti-intellectual/education sentiments from its popular music coupled with “blame Whitey” excuses from its purported leaders. If it wasn’t these Nazis, we could blame Katrina, or the OJ verdict, or poverty, or whatever. We never say, black people need to behave better and individual blacks need to be punished harshly when the misbehave, just like anyone else. When the Nazis came to Skokie, you didn’t see residents of Skokie tear up their neighbors’ property. When OJ was acquitted you didn’t see whites riot. This is an entirely predictable situation in Toledo, just as the Katrina chaos and crime was predictable, as was the mismanagement of its black-dominated city government.

I’ll say what lots of people think: The race problem in America is bad black and minority behavior. And it’s doubly a problem because it’s not addressed forthrightly in the media, who are always looking after root causes and other excuses which tend to magnify the behavior that was once held in check by a more responsible generation of black leadership, the early NAACP leaders who cajoled blacks to “be a credit to their race.” It’s unfortunate how bad black behavior reflects on all blacks, because the chief victims of black crime are other blacks. But so long as responsible and middle class blacks and white liberals make excuses for this nonsense, the real race problem in America will continue to fester. Whites will continue to move to gated communities and suburbs. Prisons will continue to fill up with black criminals. And another generation of black children and women will be fatherless and husbandless. But the white liberals who are supposedly more sensitive than me are the real haters in this drama, because their sentimentality about black criminals is more about assuaging their own conscience than the welfare of the best elements of the black community, who would benefit from what their own pandering leaders don’t or won’t deliver, the harsh truth and swift justice to black criminals.

d.a.n
Is law enforcement (or a lack of it) also part of the problem? Too often, law enforcement is selective and some neighborhoods get better law enforcement, while others go largely ignored until they can no longer be ignored.

Could be. If they cann’t catch you going 5 or 6 mph over the speed limit in a neighborhood they won’t partol it much.
There’s not any crime to speak of in my part of the county, however on any day you can drive thorough 5 speed traps just going to town. Over on the west side of the county they keep having problems with meth labs. But the copos aren’t over there busting them. Why? NO MONEY IN BUSTING METH LABS.

Roach, your giong to catch alot of greif over your post buddy. Your going to be called a hate monger, rasist, and who knows what else. Well I’ll take some of heat with you because I happen to agree with you 100%.
I also know serveral Black who agree with you. but then there’re just Uncle Toms.

Ron Brown and Roach,

“The real race problem in America is black social pathology: high crime, high rates of antisocial behavior, high rates of illegitimacy, and anti-intellectual/education sentiments from its popular music coupled with “blame Whitey” excuses from its purported leaders.”

This situation created itself I suppose. It has nothing to do with the fact that as recently as the late 60’s, blacks had few rights in the United States. I suppose that they should have established themselves in this country in the 30 something years that they were considered humans with rights in the same fashion whites accomplished in hundreds of years.
If the Native Americans brought whites from Europe to work their fields, killed, totured and denied them basic human rights, then reluctantly gave them basic rights less than 40 years ago, but put them at a distinct disadvantage re: employment, educational opportunities and social advancement, how well would you two be doing right now? How interested would you be in trusting them and assimilation?
Your reasoning is laughable. It must be nice seeing everything from 1 perspective.

There is more danger or risk of being struck by lightning than there is of the Nazi movement (or lack therof) impacting your life in this country.

These skinhead lunatics have no credibility in our society nor are they likely to mount any kind of a threat. Sure every now and then an isolated incident involving one of them, or someone who looks like them takes place but, there is no continual string of events to qualify as a “movement”.

They preach racial supremecy in a country that is founded in racial diversity. If anything they are the distinct minority.

Unfortunately, we have more than our share of white, black, asian, latin, etc. supremecy and/or isolationist groups than we can handle.

There are more members of a single gang on the streets of NY, LA, Chicago, Detroit, Philly and so on than there are nationwide Nazis.

Roach, great post.

It is amazing how the nazi group, which is a terrorist group, finds support from bloggers on this forum. You find it so much easier to blame black people of toledo while the terrorists were the aggetators. The black demonstrators action is demonaized and persecuted while the motive of the terrorist-hATE GROUP, and their STATEMENTS ARE TAKEN FOR FACE VALUE.

Mr. Hernandez, how does the fact that black behavior has roots in certain bad things done to them—namely slavery and discrimination—have much bearing on what the reality is today. These people weren’t slaves. These young people did not experience Jim Crow. There was less black crime in the 1960s than there is today. I suppose you can say that’s the exhileration of freedom and liberation, but when it comes at the expense of black people, black neighborhoods, and black victims, what benefit is it to point to white racism as the cause—an oversimplified argument—when that kind of explanation tends to increase the bad behavior in question.

There’s more racism in this white-racism-is-the-cause than in the supposed racism of my “simple” perspective. Because my values don’t give people a free ride or an excuse when they don’t act like civilized adults.

There is an old French proverb: to understand all is to forgive all. Obviously, taken to extremes, such an ethic is lunacy and will undermine society and increase crime. Perhaps we’re all in the deterministic grips of genetics and some mysterious causes at work behind our subjective freedom. We still must act as though we and others are free if we expect anyone to be responsible.

When will this tired argumetn of white racism (now or in the past) get retired. Because it seems to have less and less correlation with reality. Skinheads are the exception not the rule. Meanwhile Farrakahan and the National Council of La Raza continue to preach unadulterated anti-white racism in plain view and with little comment.

Roach andd his “friends” ae the subversive elements in our society. While they do noyt hesitate to point out the shortcomings and errors of liberral, socialist, and non-whites they excuse or rationalize the behaviore of whites who live to blame others for not benefiting from being “white”.

Roach your wicked and bias arguments are self serving and only offer portion of the big picture. It is shorted sighted analysis. It leaves out challenging issues which involves the ineffeciency and the prevelent caucasion-psychosis.

Whites, and particularly the white leadership of the United States, are the most open, just, magnaminous, self-critical, cosmopolitan, and humane leaders of any society in any historical epoch ever. Does this mean we’re without sin? Hardly. But compared to the primitive, tribal, and blatantly self-serving leaders of other nonwhite societies—I think our historical record speaks for itself. It is not without reason nonwhite people from all over the world risk life and limb to come to the United States. If we’re so mired in racism and injustice, this would not be the case. The success of these nonwhites in a white-dominated society suggests that black failure in America has some other cause other than white racism, namely, black social pathologies, partly gestated in racism and partly from other causes.

Andre M. Hernandez,

You make a very good point. It has only been 30+ years since civil rights laws started being enforced to some degree. Change takes a long time. I grew up in the sixties. I remember the injustices.
Still, the laws don’t guarantee everyone’s rights. But, perhaps it is best to not dwell on that anymore, lest it become viewed as an excuse, or a crutch.

First of all, every individual should be judged on their actions and behavior, not their race or color. Racism is wrong, and most people in America know it.

When speaking of any race, it can only be in generalities, and can never describe any individual.

Having said that, I don’t think what Roach said was racist, but it is unsympathetic. But sympathy isn’t very helpful anyway, and may, sometimes even be counter productive.

But, generally speaking, there is a problem with the black community. That’s simply a fact that none us can ignore. There are many reasons, and government exacerbated the problem (e.g. affirmative action, welfare, etc.) in many ways, but a large part of the problem was a deterioration of the family, which led to many other problems.

Still, only blacks can change it, and it is time that everyone stop making excuses, allowances, and tolerating anyone, regardless of race or past history, to use and abuse race for any reason.

Regardless of the reasons, we can be sympathetic, but we all have to stop tolerating excuses, and start solving the problems. Even if discrimination and racism still exists (because it probably always will), it can no longer be an excuse to make demands for equality that are really thinly veiled attempts to shift blame, disguise envy, and use and abuse race rather than be responsible and accountable.
____________________________
Ron Brown,
I know what you mean. Law enforcement is definitely selective. And, some of those speed traps make the police look ridiculous. The other day, I saw five police cars within a few seconds apart. I said to my wife, damn, there must be a donut shop somewhere near by. Sure ‘nuff … about that time, we passed a Dunkin’ Donuts. : )

Ron, BTW…check this out: www.void.poliwatch.org/
Maybe you (and others) would like to help David spread the word ?

Roach,
I’m not so sure about the success of whites in this country. I hope you don’t go too far with this.

AT,

I haven’t seen anyone here who agrees with the Neo Nazis. They get no sympathy from me.

That being said, nothing changes the fact that they had the Constitutional right to march. The black gangs did not have the right to escalate the issue to violent levels.

In this country, there is (thankfully) a difference between what is ‘legal’ and what is ‘right’. Since we all have different ideas of right and wrong, that’s really the only effective way to run a diverse society. Unfortunately, it means that we occasionally have to put up with self-righteous blowhards like the Neo-Nazis. If you ignore them, though, they’ll eventually go away. They’re only marching to get attention.

Roach,

“Social pathologies” I can buy. But “black social pathologies”? You’re implying that these issues are due to a quality of the race. I’ve seen plenty of evidence to point to the contrary. Specifically, I was raised in low-income white communities that had the same problems as these black communities. There’s no need to resort to racism to identify the problem.

The pathologies we’re facing are more class-based than race-based. We only see them more in black communities because poverty is more prevalent among blacks than whites.

You have it reversed; the pathologies cause and sustain the poverty. They are not black as in uniquely black, but they are overrepresented in the black population, even out of proportion to what poverty alone would predict. In other words, poor whites, hispanics, and asians do not have as high crime, illegitimacy, or other problems.

There’s a reptitive theme in some comments, that it’s a rejection of American individualism to recognize social phenomena. If one is seeking to disagnose and understand it’s not, in my opinion. Social phenomena and trends do not take away individual moral agency. But if certain phenomena are overrepresented in one group or another, it’s worth considering what common factor is driving that. It’s not simply a random anomoly that blacks have high rates of every antisocial behavior; it’s a trend, and it’s the chief racial problem in America, as I said above. Not discrimination, white racism, “institutional” racism, police brutality, skinheads, or any of the other red herrings that go against the PC conventional wisdom. Read Charles Murray, read Derrick Bell, look into NCVS data, read the Color of Crime. The data is there; when will the demonstrably false anecdotes cease.

As for my sympathy or not, I have to say, I’m not sympathetic with the perpetrators of riots, and since so much of this sentiment is anti-white and anti-society in general, I should be sympathetic with my own kind here as well as the black victims of black crime, the real victims, and not the pseudo-victims who cry oppression and riot and cause mayhem at the least excuse. No skinhead rally on earth justifies a riot.

Andre M. Hernandez
The reason that Black in general haven’t established themselves in the last 30 years has nothing to do with them being slaves.
How do you account for the many Blacks that have overcome racism and poverty to become sucessful? The answer is they didn’t buy into the ‘victim’ status that their so called leaders and the left has tried, with a lot of sucess, put on them. They went out and worked hard (sucess is hard work regardless of race) and made something of themselves.
It’s the ones that buy into the victim status that have the mind set Roach was talking about. They believe the lies told them that they cann’t make it without someone taking care of them.
I hate racism as much as anyone, and I see a lot of it from the Black leaders in this country.
I also want to go on record that I DO NOT agree with the likes of the Nazis, KKK, Ayarian Brotherhood, or any other White supremeist kooks. As far as I’m concerned the idioits that bellong to them are nothing more than WHITE TRASH, and I know what to do with trash, I take out to my trash burner and burn it.

d.a.n.
Thanks for the web address, I’ll check it out.

I think the “it’s evil white people’s fault” explanation of events in Toledo is not simply a report of what happens. It’s part of the ideology that encourages black on white violence. No one of any stature in America supports skinheads. Unlike David, I’d be more willing to say that such social organizations should be harassed within the laws and through “wink and a nod” enforcement activities that aim to prevent sedition, violence, etc. But consider the message towards the more numerous and more frequently violent blacks rioters in Toledo, part of a broader black underclass with endemic levels of violence nationwide. They’re told their whole life by authority figures that they’re oppressed and their violence is righteous.

Mass violence seems to be most primed to occur when a group perceives itself to be avenging an injustice or preventing impending violence against itself. The Tutsi victims of the Hutu formed the major constituent of a violent rebel group in 1994 Rwanda and had previously constituted the dominant ruling class. The extremist Hutu leadership sold their violence as a necessary measure to protect themselves from the repetition of Tutsi overlordship. There are parallels to the Nazi claim that it was the “Job of history” avenging the “stab in the back” at Versailles, or the Bolshevik notion that it was leading the proletariat in throwing off the yoke of capitalist oppression. In other words, the same pervasive victimology that the left pedals as the necessary condition for positive social change also can form the ideological basis of mass violence. In this sense, movies like Hotel Rwanda and other morality plays do a disservice to their audience’s education by presenting a one-dimensional account of the Hutu or any other group as a depraved and inexplicable force of evil: such explanations have more in common with the propaganda that leads to genocide than they do in helping us to understand and prevent such episodes.

Do I think the stakes are genocide? No, hardly. But the preconditions of mass violence against whites have been in place at least since the 1960s. And what will whites say in their defense after they’ve exaggerrated their sins and exaggeratted the virtues of their erstwhile victims.

Roach, I told you that you’d catch hell for your post.
Well your still right and when you state whats right anymore you get holy hell for it.
I’ve been called every name in the book because of my views on why Blacks aren’t being more sucessful than they are. It still doesn’t change the facts.
I have to laugh at those who want to call me a racist, and tell me I’m prejucied against Blacks.
I just tell them to tell that to my half Black grandchildren, and my Black Son-in-Law.
I also have a brother-in-law that’ll tell you I’m so prejudice that I introduced him tp my sister so he’d marry a White girl and get hung by the KKK.

Roach,

You know, you’re entitled to your opinion and your point, but goodness knows I just can’t figure out just what the later is.

My point, briefly, is that the media and the liberal establishment ignore black crime and black social pathology. To the extent they recognize it at all, they blame it on white racism. White racism is in fact hardly existent; manufactured incidents of white racism are in fact focused upon in order to reinforce liberal myths about reality. The Toledo riots are the perfect example of this trend. Many MSM stories to note that most of the rioters in Toledo were blacks who burned down innocent businesses to respond to white skinheads.

Why does all this deception occur? Because liberalism depends upon the war against standards and values in the name of nondiscrimination. Hence its war on standarsds of sexual, social, intellectual and other endeavors, is fought by labeling these standards puritantical, elitist, racist, classist, unjust, unrealistic, and, above all, close-minded. This is the liberal program. The reality of the widespread illegitimacy spawned by the sexual revolution, the laziness and poverty of the “beneficiaries” of the welfare state, and the increasingly antisocial behaviors of the recipients of liberal largesse is suppressed at all costs. We instead are told to focus our gaze on unusual, unrepresentative, and largely unproblematic white bad behavior. Focusing on the real sustaining causes of poverty and social pathology would require honesty that would unravel the demonstrably false assumptions of the liberal program.

Please, please, do not destroy some of your valid points with subsequent negative, and unproductive rhetoric, some bordering on racist. The point is, racism is wrong, excuses are wrong, and a lack of empathy for those less fortunate (think about the innocent children for a moment and their upbringing…or lack of it) isn’t helping solve the problem, which is in everyone’s best interest.
How do we reinvigorate a new generation? That should be the goal. And that applies to everyone, not any one race.

AT
The black demonstrators action is demonaized and persecuted while the motive of the terrorist-hATE GROUP, and their STATEMENTS ARE TAKEN FOR FACE VALUE.

Your damned right I demonize the gang thugs that rioted. And if you’ll read my recent post youll see that I also demonize the racist groups.
As I stated in one of the post as far as I’m concerned their nothing but WHITE TRASH and you take trash out and burn it.

An interesting perspective I think should be added to this conversation about riots.

Here

You come to realize that drunken juveniles really are not too original in most of their ideas. First, a large crowd gathered. Then some people started throwing bottles. Some began provoking the police officers. Then the chants — “Let’s go riot” — began. And, of course, people started trying to pull down the lamp posts. Why? Well, wasn’t it the way they did it in the Great Riot of ‘98?

While I don’t think most of those present in my hometown were drunk, they seemed to display the same attitude.

Roach,

So what you’re trying to say is that, Nazi’s or not, the blacks would have taken the opportunity to riot and loot anyway?

I won’t try to make excuses for anyone.

The American Nazi Party goes out of it’s way to create mayhem. It looks for a place to march where the local populace will react, and it does so because it CAN.
The results are almost always predictible.

The same modus operandi was exercised in Toledo, with the same predictable results.

d.a.n
How do we reinvigorate a new generation? That should be the goal. And that applies to everyone, not any one race.

First thing is to get rid of the victim status given to minorities and teach them to do for themselves. This will do more than anything to boost their selfesteem. Once someone can see that it is up to them to make something of themselves then they’ll start looking at themselves in a more positive light.
Second is to raise the standards for education. Insted of dumbing down to the lowest denominator, smarten up to the highest. I know not everyone will do as good as others but bring the smart ones down to the level of the not so smart helps no one. If we require more out of students we will get it. If we require less we will get it and are getting it.
Third is to make EVERYONE responsible for their own actions. NO MORE EXCUSES. Excuses are just bold faced lies given for the lack of a reason.

Ron,
I agree with that completely. I know you hate racism. That’s important. Part of the solution is to stop tolerating excuses. That has gone on for too long. But, we also must be careful to not denigrate a race now. It’s in our best interest to be realistic, and help those that want to help themselves be productive, and admonish those that want to abuse, blame, and continue to be irresponsible and unaccountable.

Can’t you see from the above posts that whites are waking up and not giving a crap about this “racism” nonsense. We don’t care anymore. The media loyalists and capitalists are in Fear.
This goes beyond a neocon type telling “n-gger jokes” to his white friends and complaining to drunk whites in bars about how “n-ggers” get affimative action, I absolutely dispise those people. Republicans, conservatives, and neocons are in no way on the side of a white future.
This is about our rights to live. To secure an existance for our children. To turn back the trend of our future extinction.
The Black rioters are agents of the anti-white ZOG government, they were given a pass to quell a faint peep of opposition to the ZOG NWO by burning down houses and throwing rocks at “Nazi” ambulances. Don’t blame the Black rioters, they are the unknowing mercs in this battle, blame the superiors, the police, the congress, the presidency, who want to see you dead, white man, be the congressional asshole democrat or republican!

Your right d.a.n. we don’t need to denigrate any race. And holding people accountable is a good way to keep it from happening. This goes for EVERY race.

Kalki
What part of what feild did you get that from.
It aint left feild, right field, or even center feild.

Sigh, it’s NSM, Vanguard, National Alliance, take your pick. Whenever you see ZOG used it’s pretty much a give away. Zionist Occupied Government = ZOG

Everytime this topic came up locally we had a few that participated, even Bill White the spokesperson for the NSM.

Oh boy, another looney toon fringe group.

I kinda had that figured Lisa. I was woundering if our genius would have the balls to admitt it.

Sorry I ruined the possibility of that happening Ron. First time I heard it I had to look it up. This wasn’t something I was that much aware of until this started last week. Some of us knew the NSM was coming and discussed it within local blogs.

There’s a such thing as free speech, but as anybody who’s ever watched the early parts of Die Hard: With A Vengeance knows, there’s also a such thing as pushing it a little too far.

Heh. Good point. The Constitution guarantees free speech, but I’m not sure it guarantees police protection for Nazis marching in a black neighborhood. It seems like this could have been a self-correcting problem. ;)

No problem Lisa, He most likely wouldn’t have anyway.

Someone said, “So what you’re trying to say is that, Nazi’s or not, the blacks would have taken the opportunity to riot and loot anyway?”

No, I’m not. This is a kind of essentialist prognosticating that I don’t think is productive. I’m saying that most of the racial problems in America are coextensive with the social pathologies of blacks. And I’m saying that their frequent resort to rioting and looting, when whites and others would not riot in the same circumstances, illustrates this problem. Finally I’m saying that the white liberal excuse-making in the face of this bad behavior only compounds the problem. The root cause of these fairly predictable phenomena are not found in white racism or the economy or anywhere else than in the bad behavior of individual blacks and the collective trends of illegitimacy and moral blame-shifting among many black leaders and individuals.

Roach, that is pure institutionalized racist rhetoric. Why? Because in one fell swoop your comments managed to peg African Americans who do not fit quietly and productively into a commonly held stereotype of what a good citizen is, as pathological as individuals as well as a social group or a particular race.

What your comments lack, and this more than anything lends them to a racist point of view, is any acknowledgement of historical, cultural, and socioeconomic underpinnings for non-conformist behavior. Let’s be clear, violence born of hatred is punishable by law, and rightly so.

That said, as a parent and former psychiatric aid for adolescents, I can attest to the fact that most children raised in adverse circumstances grow up to exhibit adverse behaviors. There is an historical explanation for why so many black households lack a live in father, let alone a biological father. With a working mother, and no father, and low socioeconomic means, children of such households experience frustration, anger, lack of supervision and discipline, and life planning guidance and support, throughout large segements of their days, and percentages of them well above national averages, become adults and parents repeating the very same or similar environment for their children. Thus it is a cross generational cycle of repitition.

Great strides were undertaken to counter this multi-generational cycle with the Black Panthers and the Civil Rights leaders in the 1950’s and 60’s. And that effort continues today to educate and inform young African Americans both of their responsibility to break that cycle themselves and with the help of community support groups and organizations, as well as tapping the opportunities available to them. But, as one very astute person above, Andre’ I believe, pointed out, this takes time, and will not change in just one or two generations.

There is no room to excuse violent or predatory behavior by young Aryan Neo Nazis or young Black Americans. But, there are reasons, why so many find conformity and making their own opportunities such a difficult concept to grasp and action to take. To take the stand that as a people or generation of a race, they are inferior and deserving of their plight, is racist.

Clearly, all children are born with similar potentials to grow, achieve, and succeed. No child is born with an inherent genetic disability dictating a life of failure and violence. That kind of outcome takes growing up in a culture of frustration, violence, no-win situations, and failure to create. To not take these factors into account, is relax lazily into a racist condemnation, rather than an informed understanding, in my opinion.

“Institutionalized racist rhetoric” What is this, a meaningless modifier like “substantive due process?” My rhetoric is pure, unadulterated, and factually based generalizations that stand up to statistical testing.

Speaking of an informed understanding, this statement is demonstrably false, “Clearly, all children are born with similar potentials to grow, achieve, and succeed. No child is born with an inherent genetic disability dictating a life of failure and violence.” What of low IQ children? What of children with psychopathic personality disorder, which is partly genetic? Give me a break with this liberal mythology. And if you want to call me or anyone else racist for not drinking the PC Kool-Aid at least have the balls to do it. Believe me, it won’t be the first time someone’s done it. But I’ve grown deaf to it; it’s like saying, “I disagree with you.”

David,
The reason so many Black households have no live-in father is because if they had one the mother couldn’t collect a welfare check. The problem here lies with the liberials that tell Black women that they cann’t make it outside the welfare system.
One of my employees is a Black single mother. She is a former welfare mom and a damn good employee. She got off the system when she realized that the only thing it was doing was keeping her down. She has 4 boys ages 8 thru 17 and I’m here to tell you that all four of them youngins listen to and obey their momma. Why? Cause she’ll whip their litte butts if they don’t. It don’t matter to her thats she’s only 5’ 1” and her oldest is 6’ 3”, she’ll still lay into him, and he stands there and takes it. She makes sure that they have decent clean clothes, they have 3 good meals a day. and keeps a roof over their heads. She is TOTALY into their education and hopes that they ALL will be able to go to college. Thats’s a Momma that loves her kids.
In contrast I see the majority of kids who’s mothers are on welfare that have absoulty NO disipline. Their mothers only want them for a bigger welfare check, and have NO intrest in them beyound that. I doubt that they love their kids at all. The system rewards them for having kids, but not for raising them. And this isn’t only amoung Blacks. It’s amoung the welfare class in general.
Now the question I have is why is it that a single mother that works will take better care of their youngins than the ones on welfare? And I’m not talking about one making more money than the other. I’m talking they will take better care of them in general.
I say it’s the system.

Roach and Ron Brown,

I’m not making an excuse for the rioters. Read my first comment.
What I am saying is that your point of view is based on your understanding of how the world works. Your understanding is based on always being on top. Blacks have had a very short time to establish themselves. Creating a culture takes time. You seem to think that you set the schedule. You also seem to think you have the right to pass judgement on them based on a cursory exploration of their culture.
Have you ever had a parent tell their child, right in front of you, not to play with you because of your color? Have you ever had feelings for a girl in school, to be told she cannot date you because her father would be upset because of your color or last name? Have you ever experienced walking down the street and getting the looks of suspicion from elderly white women or having them clutch their purse or cross the street? My views of racism is based on my experience which helps me not to lose sleep over it. I am not saying I have all the answers or have the right to judge others.
You on the other hand are basing your disturbing views, that the black race is a failure, on a perception that they must meet your approval to be a success. You base your argument on the fact that they are poor, unhappy and most of all different. Your cursory and inaccurate assessment of black culture is amusing and at the same time troubling because your views are shared by others. Not the obvious KKK members but the CEOs and store managers that we meet each day.

Ron said: “The reason so many Black households have no live-in father is because if they had one the mother couldn’t collect a welfare check.”

That used to be true from the late 50’s through to the mid ‘90’s. Thanks to Republicans and Pres. Clinton, that changed. But, to expect that legal change to translate in a single generation to cultural and social changes is simply not supported by sociological evidence.

“Thats’s a Momma that loves her kids.”

That’s an anecdotal argument from the specific to the general which is logically a false argument. There are many factors playing into her success, not the least of which is the fact that she does in fact have a job, and likely had a pretty good upbringing of her own. This anecdote does nothing to counter my argument.

“Their mothers only want them for a bigger welfare check, and have NO intrest in them beyound that.”

Ahh, they are personal friends of yours, are they? You surveyed them each and all to confirm that your suspicions are upheld by their own views of their situation? Um…huh!

As the work at home Dad while Mom worked for a corporation, I know first hand my presence in my daughter’s life at all times when she is not with her mom or at school, has helped her toward discipline, ethics, and responsibility immensely. Had I not been there, the things she would have gotten away with, and therefore reinforced for, could easily have resulted in her progress in character building and good decisions being stunted significantly.

Roach, Ron, Andre M. Hernandez, David,

You all have valid points. While I tend to agree parts of what Roach said, I said it was unsympathetic to the many reasons and causes.

To ignore those reasons means that Roach may believe the reasons are due to race? I’m not sure what he means, but he never explicitly or definitively said that.

If Roach means to say that the pathology is a disease of the race (as in (1) below), then that is racist.

However, if he means that the pathology is a condition rooted in causes unrelated to race (as in (3) below), then it is not racist.

DEFINITIONS of PATHOLOGY:
(1) The scientific study of the nature of disease and its causes, processes, development, and consequences. Also called pathobiology.
(2) The anatomic or functional manifestations of a disease: the pathology of cancer.
(3) A departure or deviation from a normal condition: “Neighborhoods plagued by a self-perpetuating pathology of joblessness, welfare dependency, crime” .
______________________________________________

Thus, (3) is a social pathology, unrelated to race. And that condition can be found in many places, among all races.

However, having said that, I think we must be careful about focusing too much on well known reasons, because there is a high probability that they will be used as excuses or a crutch. This requires to some extent, that we all stop being tolerant of excuses. The tendency to make excuses is not a trait of any one race. This is a human trait. It’s often, unfortunately, common to use excuses, and hardships, rather than try to rise above it. And blacks truly do have a lot of valid excuses. Especially if you consider the fact that civil rights only started to be enforced about 35 years ago. But, like a parent with a child with some hardship, tough love is needed. We can be sympathetic, but we should not dwell on the many well known reasons. We must discourage negative behavior and attempts to excuse it due to hardships or the unfairness of the world, because that is what will lead to more failure. Instead, we must shift focus away from excuses, and shift focus to solutions. And, one of the most important places to focus first is the deterioration of the family, and ways to stop the deterioration.

I could be wrong, or missed something above, but from what I can tell, Roach and Ron are only saying we need to stop tolerating excuses.
On that I agree.
However, if they’re saying the condition is pathological and a disease of the race, I disagree.
If they’re saying the condition is pathological in that it is a condition unrelated to race, then I agree.
___________________________________
Here’s a good article by Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson:
wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440

I don’t know if race causes certain social pathologies. I simply observe that they’re correlated, that there are patterns of certain traits and behaviors within racial cohorts. This is not racism. Even if it were somehow caused by “race” or caused by the genetics and other inherited factors that make up race—a subject that I’m totally inexpert in—I wouldn’t think such an observation is necessary racist, any more than observing that those of African descent in the black race are generally darker-toned than caucasians. Racism is irrational and often malevolent generalizing about a race. It is not malevolent to speak truthfully about patterns that involve race, ethnicity, or any other distinction between groups. Willful ignorance and blindness of race, race differences, cultural differences that vary by race, etc. may not be racist, but it’s stupid, prejudiced, leads to bad policy, and cannot be sustained on the facts.

Blacks commit more crimes than whites. A lot more. There may be a lot of reasons for this, but if one thinks this is a problem, a kind of nonuniformity without any social benefit, than one must start by recognizing this factual reality before one can do anything useful about it. It’s not an uninteresting or unimportant question: Why are so many blacks so much more violent and so much more antisocial than whites? Why do they do things that work to their individual and collective detriment, whether it’s supporting a Louis Farrakahan or having so many kids out of wedlock? And, more important than understanding the multidimensional issue of causation, what can be done now to arrest these trends and reverse them? This is a narrower question than causation, because root causes, some of which stretch into the distant past, may not be so easily or efficinetly addressed as the symptoms, pace the common view that one must always attack root causes and not symptoms.

By way of example, it may not be easy to determine who will be a repeat offender and who will get busted many times. It may be caused or at least made more likely by poverty, illegitimacy, etc. We can’t necessary know in advance who will be propelled to civilized and productive behavior in response to such privation, and who will be alieanted and violent. But once someone commits multiple crimes, we have important indicators of future propensities and can rather efficiently lock such a person up rather than gambling on them in the future. For this reason, I support “three strikes” laws for certain crimes, while I think massive interventions like “head start” and the “war on poverty” consistently overpromise and underdeliver. I think they have this bad record, in part, because it’s not so easy to address root causes of crime, while it’s comparatively easier to identify and punish criminals.

Thanks! I can’t argue with any of that.
When you say pathological, you should be aware that it has multiple meanings: (1)one that implies a disease that is race related, and (2)another that implies a social condition unrelated to race.
It’s a valid question, but I haven’t seen any evidence that the conditions we speak of are race related, despite the correlations.

But, I do agree that one step in the right direction is to stop tolerating excuses, no matter how valid many are, as does also the Rev. Jessee Lee Peterson: wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440
and not the likes of racists such as Jesse Jackson, and Luis Farrakhan, and Al Sharpton:
shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1319

Roach clearly wants to believe that simply because of the way they are made, Black people are less capable of intelligent behavior than white people are. Most of his supporters want to believe this as well. Its not the same as hating Black people. For example, I don’t hate dogs, but I believe that they are less capable of intelligent behavior than are human beings. That’s probably why he doesn’t know that he is racist; he most likely doesn’t sit around thinking of ways to screw Black people.

His error is not in his assessment of the behavior of Black people as a group, he relies only on statistics. His error is in what he perceives to be the motive for the behavior. He uses as a motive that Black people simply are what they are, as though they are born in a vacuum completely unaffected by past historical events, attitudes, and customs. He avoids asking why Black people act the way they do. Any good investigator knows that the answer lies if discovering “Why”.

I suspect that Roach and friends have done this, but they don’t like the answer, so they attempt to manufacture an answer that they do like.

* engaging in an inter-racial marriage in Mississippi; * serving on the police force in L.A.;

* wearing a Yankees jersey in Boston;

* being black in certain counties in Arkansas

* being white in certain other counties in Arkansas;

* voting Democrat in Texas;

* cheering for Jeff Gordon at Daytona….

Are these people who are just asking for trouble? Since any moron can predict that these things are going to cause violence, should the police look the other way when such cases occur?
Posted by: Rob Cottrell at October 17, 2005 03:17 PM

None of these things are as likely to create violence as a Nazi party marching through a Black neighborhood. These are all cases of people simply living their everyday lives.

I don’t have the right to see a woman and follow her around all day every day asking her, “How about you gimme some.” It is speech, but it is not protected speech. That is called harrassment. I would be encroaching on someone else’s ordinary space. I don’t have the right to play my radio as loud as I want at 1:00 A.M. That is called disturbing the peace.

In this case the Nazi party is going out of their way to find where Black people live and to go there yelling things that will do no good, and to say things that Black people don’t want to hear, and to intimidate them with their presence. The Black people didn’t come to them, they went to the Black people. They were deliberately harassing Black people, and an idiot can see that they would disturb the peace.

You can’t compare other minorities because other minorities have more of their identies left. Look at Hispanic minorities, most of them still speak Spanish. Most Asian minorities still speak their native language. In addition their language they have other customs and mores related to their native land that they still practice. Black people don’t speak any African language nor do practice any customs that is native to Africa. Every 400 year-old African custom regarding marriage, childbirth, and language is gone for African-American, and replaced with a newer way of life forced on them by White people. The entirety of Black American heritage is that they have been enslaved and oppressed.

Given all that, I don’t think that even Roach and company believe that living Black people, most of whom were direct victims of civil rights violations at least once in their lives, is unaffected by the history of this nation. Again, I think they want to believe it, so they lie to themselves.

Darrius
Roach clearly wants to believe that simply because of the way they are made, Black people are less capable of intelligent behavior than white people are.

If I tought he feels that way I wouldn’t be backing him on this. I happen to know personally several Black people that behave better than most White people. I also know personally Blacks that couldn’t get it togeather if their lives depended on it. Most of these are from poor families.

In this case the Nazi party is going out of their way to find where Black people live and to go there yelling things that will do no good, and to say things that Black people don’t want to hear, and to intimidate them with their presence. The Black people didn’t come to them, they went to the Black people. They were deliberately harassing Black people, and an idiot can see that they would disturb the peace.

Your so right. However they have that right as much as you and I may hate it.
If some boozos came to you town carring on like that I’m sure you wouldn’t like it. But would you in turn riot and burn your town down?
I know for a fact that it these clowns ever come to my town I’m not going burn the place down. Now I might do a little shooting and use these idiots for target practice, but I’m not burning my home down because of them.

You can’t compare other minorities because other minorities have more of their identies left. Look at Hispanic minorities, most of them still speak Spanish. Most Asian minorities still speak their native language. In addition their language they have other customs and mores related to their native land that they still practice. Black people don’t speak any African language nor do practice any customs that is native to Africa. Every 400 year-old African custom regarding marriage, childbirth, and language is gone for African-American, and replaced with a newer way of life forced on them by White people. The entirety of Black American heritage is that they have been enslaved and oppressed.

Now your making excuses. Excuses only makes the situation worse.

Same here. And Roach cleared that up. Roach should have been more precise when he used the word pathology though, because it has multiple definitions and (1)one definition implies a disease of a race, and (2)another implies a disease of society. Roach never said it was (1). He even acknowledged that there are many reasons. Roach did point to correlations, and statistics that are factual, and he even acknowledges that many societal causes could be the cause (not race). Afterall, it wasn’t long ago that we did not have civil rights for everyone, and discrimination still exists in which truly deserving individuals are denied opportunity. But, I agree that part of the prolbem is being too tolerant of too many excuses for too long, which is hurting more than helping. I think that is what Roach, and you (Ron), and also Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson ( wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440 ) are saying. Making excuses is making it worse. While that sounds unsympathetic, it’s the right medicine, for everyone, regardless of race.

There is something of a downward trend here; in other words there is something besides mere “blackness” or “black culture” that’s driving this phenomenon. It went from OK to bad to worse.

Black crime and illegtimacy rates were much lower in relative and absolute terms in the 1950s and 1960s. While the civil rights movement opened up doors of oportunity to many blacks, a significant number of whom have entered the middle class and adopted middle class values, it also unleashed the twin daggers at the heart of the already vulnerable black family, the sexual revolution and the subsidization of bastardy through the welfare state.

Blacks went from a 30% illegitimacy rate to upwards of a 75% illegitimacy rate. People like Darrius and others above worried about root causes said criminals shouldn’t be punished too harshly because it’s society’s fault. Rapists and murders got sentences ranging from a few months to 7 years. We witnessed an explosion of crime and violence that peaked from 1980-1990. Fed up with this wave of failure, conservative policies on crime triumphed. Many were locked up for longer sentences in more numerous prison beds built during the interim. Crime dropped. But it’s still significant. And it’s still at unaceptably high levels in the black-dominated inner cities.

I am being castigated for pointing out something we all know is true, and that is easily confirmed, and for not paralyzing my discussion of these facts with genuflections to the altar of nondiscrimination at the heart of liberalism. Well, I’m sorry, I will point out reality. I will make truthful and useful distinctions. And I won’t allow my basic moral and socially repsonsible sense to be paralyzed by “root causes” analysis, any more than I’ll be afraid to send a child molester or murderer up river because of some attenuated, broader responsibility we all have for those that go bad.

As for the phrase social pathology, it’s kind of a term of art. It doesn’t mean disease in the sense that it’s unavoidable, though there is something unhealthy about social pathologies. It simply describes bad collective behavior, which is what America’s inner city blacks repeatedly demonstrate.

I think it’s funny that liberals who cry censorship so readily and imagine themselves to be so broad-minded and brave are so afraid of any honest discussion of race that doesn’t involve white people flagellating themselves.

Roach
Of coarse you being castigated for pointing out the truth buddy. Your saying things that aren’t PC. True but not PC.
The PC thing to do is to make excuses for peoples actions insted of making them bare the responsibility for them.
If my wife and me had made excuses for our kids actions insted of making them take responsibility for them, I guarantee that EVERYONE OF THEM wouldn’t be the hard working, law adiding citizens they are that take the resopnsibility for their actions AND themselves..
The same goes for any group in sciety. Make excuses for them and they will NEVER take the responsibility for their actions or themselves.

Roach, Ron,
I agree. I’m just cringing a little by the near gung-ho-ness, a bit of vagueness about the root of the problem. I’m just not convinced it’s race related. You can’t know definitively (despite all the statistics presented thus far)if it’s a true race characteristic, and you’ll do yourself a favor to acknowlege that. While you have many facts, and excuses shouldn’t be tolerated any longer, because excuses lead to failure, but please be clear that that it is not proven to be a disease of a race. As of now, it is a disease of society, until you can definitively prove otherwise. True, there are many problems are within the black community, but that does not mean the black race is to blame. But, still, there’s an important message. Regardless of race, bad behavior is not going to be tolerated. No excuses. The law applies equally to everyone, regardless of race.

Every negative attributed to blacks above, is also indicative of poor and less educated whites. Hence, there is logical reason to suspect that the negatives attributed to African Americans, is more linked to socio-economic status than to race.

“I am being castigated for pointing out something we all know is true, and that is easily confirmed, and for not paralyzing my discussion of these facts with genuflections to the altar of nondiscrimination at the heart of liberalism…”

As for the phrase social pathology, it’s kind of a term of art. It doesn’t mean disease in the sense that it’s unavoidable, though there is something unhealthy about social pathologies. It simply describes bad collective behavior, which is what America’s inner city blacks repeatedly demonstrate.”

———————————
Roach, I don’t think you should be castigated for pointing out a basic truth. Black leaders for some time have been basically saying the same thing. Cosby, and yes, even Jesse Jackson (a long time ago however) pushed personal responsibility among young black people. As a liberal, yes I worship at the “alter of non-discrimination”. However, I don’t think it is discriminatory to point out the failings of a particular group.

The “silver bullet” in my mind is education. Education opens opportunities to people that didn’t previously understand or know what was available. Couple the lack of importance of education to the general lack of a stable home life, and you have a recipe for the current situation.

Simply throwing money at the problem will not help. A concerted effort by local, state and federal governments along with partnerships with corporations can have a dramatic impact on improving education. Better education means more options. More options means fewer people deciding to remain in the status quo. We have to build our way out of this mess through disciplined and focused efforts on resolving the edcuation problem.

Since this thread has evolved into a black discussion in a variety of topics I have a few questions :

1. If black citizens living in this country are called “African Americans” what are the black non-citizens called?

2. Are the black people living in England called “African British”, in France “African Frenchmen”, in Germany “African Germans”, etc.?

3. Assuming that black citizens living in the US have chosen to be called “African Americans” out of pride for their heritage (most of course have no idea where or what Africa is or stands for), what about the “African Americans” who are descended of the tribal leaders who sold their own people into slavery. Are they equally as proud?

4. Is a child born out of the relationship between a black man and a caucasion woman or out of the reverse relationship called an “African American”?

Dennis,
Yes, throwing money at the problem will only make it worse, unless it is spent for better public education. Better education for everyone is in the best interest of the nation as a whole. Unfortunately, not all schools are equal. Some public schools are much poorer than others. Is government failing to distribute funds equally? In Dallas, there is so much corruption, graft, and bribery in the city and school systems, it’s no wonder little Johnny can’t read. Needless to say, government has done (or failed to do) many things over the decades that has made things worse, and worsened socio-economic conditions. The failings of government are not offered up as another excuse, it’s simply that correcting these problems in government would be a good place to start. Public education should be more equal across the nation, because it currently is not. Some schools are obviously getting more than others.

d.a.n.
I’m not sure what causes this social pathological mind. Like Roach said it’s not a disiese. I believe that it can be changed. And hope is does get changed.
You and Dennis are right, throwing money at a problem only makes things worse. I believe that is most likely this mind set is more noticeible amoung Blacks that other races. Money ha been thrown at it for so long and nothing else done that the problem has grown to the point that it’s almost a common trait amoung Blacks. This is a has been great disservice to them.
In a previous post I mentioned 3 thing that can help change this mind set.
1.Teach people to take care of themselves.
2.Raise the standards in our schools.
3. And most importantly MAKE EVERYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEEIR OWN ACTIONS.

Steve,

There’s a staggering amount of evidence and research to show that we all may have come from Africa, spreading into Europe, Asia, and then the North and South American continents. So, we’re all “African Something”.

Seriously though, I don’t really care what anyone calls themself. That’s their choice. To me though, we’re all people, and it isn’t important what their color, race, origin, nationality, religion, or label is.

I once watched a Sci-Fi movie (The Lathes of Heaven). In the story, everyone’s skin was the color grey. Thus, there was no more racism. Unfortunately, people are still discriminated against for merely being different. Children do it. There’s something in human nature that makes us that way. But, that doesn’t mean we can’t learn to not be that way.

It would be best if we approached all these problems and solutions with no regard of race, color, religion, etc. We’re all people, and there’s really no benefit to highlighting the differences in color, race, religion, etc. So perhaps, it would be best to be color blind, religion blind, race blind, etc.

Ron,
Yes, I agree with those three steps.
And add one more:
(4) Approach all of it with no regard to race, color, religion, etc. We are a diverse nation, but we are all people.

d.a.n.
(3) A departure or deviation from a normal condition: neighborhoods plagued by a self-perpetuating pathology of joblessness, welfare dependency, crime.

I was scrolling down after I posted and found this on one of your post.
This is most likely the root of the problem.

David,
What I told d.a.n.

By the way, the diversity of our nation is one of the things that makes me the most proud of this nation. I believe that diversity helps use to become more color blind, more religion blind, more race blind. That’s not to say racism isn’t still alive and well, but racism is finally viewed by most Americans as a shameful way to be. I think Americans have, in the past 50 years, becoming less and less tolerant of racism, and prejudices of other forms (e.g. based on race, religion, color, gender, etc.).

Ron,
Yes. I was hoping that Roach would be careful to make the appropriate distinction between the two meanings of “pathological”. It could easily be misinterpretted to mean something else. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant the third (3) definition, which is rooted in socio-economic problems (not race). After all, as David Remer correctly pointed out, you can find the same socio-economic problems among all races all across the nation. But, what ever the reasons, they should not become excuses, regardless of race.

d.a.n.
Unfortunately, people are still discriminated against for merely being different. Children do it. There’s something in human nature that makes us that way. But, that doesn’t mean we can’t learn to not be that way.

Have you ever watched 1&2 year-olds playing in a group? They will play with ANYONE that will play with them and don’t care what their skin color is.
While you might be right that human nature can make us that way I think that a lot of it is learned.
And sad to say even after we learn NOT be racist there is still a little in everyone.

d.a.n,

Wonderful to hear from you. I will not however accept any post from you that does not show your points with parenthesized numbers or letters. The following are acceptable :

(1)- [1] - or, (I) - [I]

While I tend to agree that “people should be people” irrespective of color, national origin, etc. I do not believe it will ever happen. There will always be those who choose to identify themselves distinctively. If there is no difference between a “Caucasion American” and an “African American” why won’t the “African Americans” accept simply, I am an “American”.

steve smith,
Ooooops, I forgot. I’m get lazy sometimes.
Yes, everyone may never drop the labels, but that’s OK if some want to call themselves something else (e.g. Caucasian, African, Mexican, etc.). I don’t really care about that. It’s just not necessary. But, it would look a bit strange if went about calling myself “Caucasion American”.

Ron,
That’s a good point about small children (playing together, regardless of race, color, etc.). I’m not sure it applies to older children. Older children are sometimes cruel and cliquish, and ostracize and persecute others that are different. Were they taught to be that way (directly or indirectly)? Maybe. I don’t know.

Even small children can exhibit many negative traits, until their taught what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

People do seem to fear and dislike anyone who is different.

Ron,
cc: Roach & co.

You don’t have the right to harrass people. You don’t have the right to incite riots. A KKK or Nazi rally in a black neighborhood is a clear act of doing both. Were the rally somewhere is the circumstances would be different.

You can’t compare other minorities because other minorities have more of their identies left. Look at Hispanic minorities, most of them still speak Spanish. Most Asian minorities still speak their native language. In addition their language they have other customs and mores related to their native land that they still practice. Black people don’t speak any African language nor do practice any customs that is native to Africa. Every 400 year-old African custom regarding marriage, childbirth, and language is gone for African-American, and replaced with a newer way of life forced on them by White people. The entirety of Black American heritage is that they have been enslaved and oppressed.

I’m not making excuses. I’m stating obvious facts. You and Roach are the ones making excuses. Read what I write next as it is very important. Recognizing what caused something to happen is different from assigning responsibility for correcting the problems that it caused. I never addressed the issue of assigning responsibility for improving Black people’s quality of life. - For the record, Black people are responsibile for improving their own lot in life. - Still, ‘how they got in this condition’ is a different question from ‘how to get out of this condition’.

The paragraph I wrote, that is referenced here, is accurate and both you and Roach & co. know it is. However, you summarily dismiss it as having no effect or relevance on the behavior of Black People. Your idea that this culture is irrelevant is a ludacris notion.

Everyone’s culture has an effect on their behavior. That is why you have democratic ideals (I mean democratic in the general sense, not party affiliation). The culture you come from has been democratic for several hundred years. That is why religion is mentioned in the Iraqi constitution, their culture has never truly recognized a separation of church and state. That is why Black people don’t have adequate methods of self-governance, any method of self-governance they attempted to develop over the last 300 years has been systemically destroyed by white people over that same period of time. Yet, in a stroke of true genius, you, Roach & co. proclaim that culture and past history have no bearing on why Black people don’t have a record of governing themselves as well as other peoples who have been governing themselves for hundreds, in some cases thousands, of years.

Roach,

Blacks went from a 30% illegitimacy rate to upwards of a 75% illegitimacy rate. People like Darrius and others above worried about root causes said criminals shouldn’t be punished too harshly because it’s society’s fault. Rapists and murders got sentences ranging from a few months to 7 years. We witnessed an explosion of crime and violence that peaked from 1980-1990. Fed up with this wave of failure, conservative policies on crime triumphed. Many were locked up for longer sentences in more numerous prison beds built during the interim. Crime dropped. But it’s still significant. And it’s still at unaceptably high levels in the black-dominated inner cities.

People like me don’t argue that criminals should not be punished to harshly. People like me argue that