Third Party & Independents: Archives

“What has brought our society to the point where we actually consider the suggestion that the military be allowed to operate within our own borders to force our own citizens to comply with the latest demands from the White House?”

I’m guessing when “We the People” ignored and looked the other way when the Waco murders occurred.
Didn’t matter then, why should it matter now?
The sheeple just don’t care anymore.

KCTIM,

What Murders? Are you referring to the Branch Davidian incident? I thought that was a combo murder/suicide on the part of Koresh and his followers. Did something else get reported on this? Who murdered whom?

Andrew,

Do you consider Eisenhower’s use of troops (National Guard though they were, they were federalized) to enforce the integration of Central High School in Little Rock Arkansas in 1957 a violation of the Posse Comitatus statute? He signed an executive order federalizing the Arkansas National Guard and sent in Federal troops as well.

KCTIM,

Well, the feds said that they did not shoot during the final assault, however FLEER imagery shows conclusively that they did. Into the house at people who were fleeing out of the back of the compound (away from the TV cameras).

If you want to call that murder…

Exactly Rhinehold.
clinton was responsible for that massacre and the left looked the other way and now they can’t believe the right won’t see things how they want them too.
They expect the right to take them serious even though they failed to do what was right when it was their time to do so.
Posse Comitatus will be nothing but a history note.
Farewell indeed!

“What has brought our society to the point where we actually consider the suggestion that the military be allowed to operate within our own borders to force our own citizens to comply with the latest demands from the White House?”

I’m guessing when “We the People” ignored and looked the other way when the Waco murders occurred.
Didn’t matter then, why should it matter now?
The sheeple just don’t care anymore.

Posted by: kctim at September 27, 2005 02:50 PM

I think it was long before that, but I really cann’t say just what event it was.

Andrew,

Do you consider Eisenhower’s use of troops (National Guard though they were, they were federalized) to enforce the integration of Central High School in Little Rock Arkansas in 1957 a violation of the Posse Comitatus statute? He signed an executive order federalizing the Arkansas National Guard and sent in Federal troops as well.

Posted by: Dennis at September 27, 2005 03:48 PM

I believe you just come up with event that I was looking for.

Rhinehold
Well, the feds said that they did not shoot during the final assault, however FLEER imagery shows conclusively that they did. Into the house at people who were fleeing out of the back of the compound (away from the TV cameras).

If you want to call that murder…

THAT IS MURDER!

kctim,
Sorry to tell you this, but our government even under Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 as it is written today allows the President to order Federal Troops into an area without the State or Local Authorities giving their permission. Although the political fallout would be great even if President Bush would of sent the 82nd into New Orleans over the objection of Governor Blanco, the National Response Plan gives him the power of the Laws of the Land.

However, what he is proposing about putting the military in charge of a natural disaster leaves the problem of civilian assistance (non-profits)to those exposed to the disaster out. That problem will not set well with Congress and the American People. If President Bush was smart, he would request that the State and Local FEMA Director would have a Military Command background. Same bang for the buck, but without the hassle of being seen as a ridicule move.

Andrew,
Check out Marshal Law in your State and ask yourself if under a “State of Emergency” does the Law Enforcement have the ability to suspend all your Civil and Constitutional Rights? That is why the Governor calls a “State of Emergency.” Could you see what would happen if they said it was the exact same thing as declaring Marshal Law?

There are presently rather signficant exceptions to Posse Comitatus, not least the drug war, the Stafford Act, and the federal power to enforce law and order in the face of a civil disturbance that fails to disperse. While imperfect, I’d prefer more often than not to see the latter power used sparingly, especially when a governor objects a la Blanco.

Henry
“Sorry to tell you this, but our government even under Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 as it is written today allows the President to order Federal Troops into an area without the State or Local Authorities giving their permission”

I am well aware of that. It is the manner in which they abuse that power that I am speaking of.
What I get from Andrew’s post is that this is nothing more than trying to make those abuses justified.
Posse C. has really meant nothing for the last few decades, the people have given up.

kctim, you guys sure do make a lot of hay over the Waco wacko. Are you sure you want to be making a saint out of that guy? All he had to do was come out with his hands up.

AP,

Wikipedia has an interesting article about Koresh. It paints a picture quite like you would imagine he would be like, including the murder of the husband of the leader of the sect that he would eventually come to lead.

But of course, that was Clinton’s fault as well.

AP,

Sorry, that was the son of the sect leader.

Here’s the link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

AP,

Who is making Koresh a saint? Just because we point out that our government going in and shooting American citizens running out of a burning building (which there is decent evidence to suggest they help start) is something we should abhor?

Sort of like the beating of Rodney King, only with firearms. It doesn’t matter that he was a doped up maniac who had just led the police on a very long high speed dangerous police chase and almost killed at least one policeman in the process, he still should NOT have been beaten.

Koresh was a (IMO) insane cult leader who put himself in a position to kill an ATF agent who delivered a warrant and then held off the FBI for weeks while getting a lot of face time. BUT, that his no justification for killing people fleeing from the burning buliding, is it?

Or is it ok because Clinton was in office and we don’t want to say that something was Clinton’s fault for fear of waking up the Clinton apologists like Moveon.org, AP and Rocky?

(hint: Clinton did some things well and others wrong and badly. He was a mostly mediocre to terrible president with no overriding political philosophy other than keeping his poll numbers up as much as possible who screwed up at times and was prevented from doing too much damage by a republican congress.)

Rhinehold,

“Or is it ok because Clinton was in office and we don’t want to say that something was Clinton’s fault for fear of waking up the Clinton apologists like Moveon.org, AP and Rocky?”

Clinton has been blamed for everything that has happened in history since the fall of the Roman Empire.
For those that say he was a draft dodger, lots of folks took the collage deferment from the draft, and lots of folks protested the war in VietNam.

Clinton doesn’t need me to be an apologist for him. He is who he is.

Whether he was a good President or not, is for history to judge, but hindsight is 20-20.

Rocky,

You are correct, but when someone DOES bring up something he did wrong, why do you feel the need to apologize for him?

And do you feel the same way about Bush? It’s been longer that Clinton has been out of office, but it appears to me that you’re saying it’s ok to judge Bush while he’s IN office but not Clinton who preceeded him until we know everything, etc…

Double standard?

Rhinehold,

Clinton was judged plenty when he was in office, just as Regan was and Carter was. It comes with the teritory.

Quite a few Presidents have had their own set of pecidillos.
Ok, Clinton got caught and lied about his. But to condem his whole Presidency because of it is just wrong, as is blaming him for the wackos in Waco thing. It’s as if his whole intention was to kill them in the first place.

Bush was annointed, and is only recently coming out of his Imperial Presidency schtick. Hopefully he will realize that he is human after all and start doing the right thing.

Sorry Rocky, you’re missing the point.

Clinton did quite a bit wrong, which is why he is judged harshly. Committing a felony during a sexual harassment trial in which he was the defendant is just one of the things he did that he should be judged harshly on. (and before the usual ‘it was all about sex’ thing rears it’s stupid and ugly head, so was Watergate, so get over it. He was obstructing justice trying to duck a law he signed)

And yes, I blame Clinton for Waco (by appointing Reno and being aware of what was going on and being involved with the decisions) just as I blame Bush for appointing Brown and being aware of those decisions. How can we do anything else without hypocrisy being present?

Oh, and to follow myself up, yes there are quite a number of people who attack him on every front from the Lewinsky scandal without having any knowledge into any other aspect of what he did and didn’t do.

Those people are wrong for doing so. But it doesn’t make him free from judgement on the other aspects of his presidency because them either.

Rhinehold,

Clinton did plenty to be criticized for. He also did a lot of good for this country, quite a bit of which Bush has reversed.

No President is above criticism, but I get tired of hearing about morons such as David Koresh that think that they only answer to “God’s Law”. He was a bad guy, and those that stayed with him knew the consequences of their actions.
I also grow weary of hearing about Ruby Ridge.
So what if he was entrapped. Go, have your day in court, at least you and your family survive to fight another day.
With the “reign” of Ashcroft, who oversaw the removal of of our rights as citizens, Reno was a day in the park, and Gonzales wants to go further still.

You’re comparing apples and oranges.

Waco murders? What a crock.

So, you’re saying that because Koresh was a ‘bad guy’ (trust me, I’m as anti-religion as you can get) his followers DESERVED to be shot to death by FBI agents while running out of a burning building unarmed and on fire?

I think there is a crock, but it doesn’t seem to be where you think it is…

Rhinehold,

“So, you’re saying that because Koresh was a ‘bad guy’ (trust me, I’m as anti-religion as you can get) his followers DESERVED to be shot to death by FBI agents while running out of a burning building unarmed and on fire?”

I have never heard that account other than to see the accusation made by you.

Please supply a link.

Here’s mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian#Shootings

Feel free to read the whole thing, including the discussion page which talks about the possible bias of the article.
No where in this article does it say anything about FBI agents shootimg flaming people.

Oh and BTW Clinton had only been in office for what, 2/12 months?

I never said that they deserved to die. I said;

“He was a bad guy, and those that stayed with him knew the consequences of their actions.”

Those were my exact words.

Rocky,

I *saw* them shooting, it was captured on FLIR. There is no other explanation. The FBI was firing into the building during the final raid.

The footage is easily seen if you watch ‘Waco: Rules of Engagement’.

More information is located here:

No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident

Review of Waco: A New Revelation

The conclusions presented in these movies — that FBI agents fired into the compound on the day of the fire — were disproven through extensive scientific testing and analysis by the Special Counsel and experts at the civil trial.

LoL, that’s one of the funniest lines I’ve ever read. I equate this to the assertion that without a doubt only one gunman fired upon President John F. Kennedy in Dallas. Every expert that has reviewed the FLIR footage, other than the 2 that Rep Danforth employed, said that the there is no way that reflective sunlight could have caused the flashes, only gunfire could. Viewed side by side the footage is exact to soldiers shooting from their weapons while parachuting into Somalia. The suggestion that a reflection of sunlight (disputed long before it was listed as the cause by Rep. Danforth) can cause the FLIR technology to pick up that much of an increase in heat is laughable and should be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of physics. Much like a ‘magic bullet’.

But, have you looked at the footage with your own eyes or are you relying upon what the government is telling you? Seriously, watch the documentary mentioned in the Wikipedia article, see the footage for yourself. Read the rebuttal to Sen. Danforth’s ‘investigation’. We should always look at both sides of an issue before making a judgement, dontcha think?

As for Clinton only being in office for 2 1/2 months prior, does that mean he DIDN’T appoint Janet Reno? She wasn’t the one calling the shots with the full knowledge of the President? OR do we give him a pass since he was new?

To be honear, the main problem was the BATF trying to make themselves look better after a VERY embarrasing documentary about harassment in the BATF organization, I doubt that Reno was aware of how SHE was being manipulated and lied to. But it did happen under her direction and she bears responsibility for violating the Posse Comitatus statute (getting back to the point of the article) or the many other legal violations that have gone, to this day, unenforced.

Hmmm, apparently the system now thinks I’m a new writer and is blocking my response. :) Can I blame Clinton?

Btw, the ‘flaming people’ was allegory. The building was on fire, the people were trying to leave out of the back of the building, one of the 3 exit routes created when the tanks tore huge gaping holes into the building and blocked the normal escape route. Actually being on fire at the moment of the shots? Hard to say for sure.

I think you see what I was saying now…

Rhinehold,

The problem when you use an allegory is those that think Waco was a government plot will only see “FBI shooting at flaming people”, and not bother to look any deeper than that.

This gets filed with the “Man bites dog” stories.

Back to politics.
There has been plenty to bitch about Presidential politics since I became aware of them, starting with Johnson, and nothing has changed except the face in the White House.

Andrew,

What does the Posse Comitatus statute mean anymore?
The Maricopa County Sherrifs Dept has a tank, and the officers are armed with the latest weaponry. This country is one armed camp after another.

What does the Posse Comitatus statute mean anymore? The Maricopa County Sherrifs Dept has a tank, and the officers are armed with the latest weaponry. This country is one armed camp after another.

Yes, local police are being armed with increasing military power, however, with the PCA intact, counties/cities will have relatively few tanks as compared to the US Military coming to town.

AParker,

Realisticly I can’t see the US military coming down on the US population, unless the circumstances were indeed dire.

Also here is a link that explains the Posse Comitas a litle better;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

Rocky-

Challenge your assumptions. Did you think that ‘realistically’ it would be possible for anyone to bring down the towers in NYC before 9/11?

“I also grow weary of hearing about Ruby Ridge.
So what if he was entrapped. Go, have your day in court, at least you and your family survive to fight another day”

Rocky, you are totally missing the point. Its not about Bush or clinton. It is about how we are a divided nation and people are allowing rights to be taken away when its “their” guy in office.
Its about how people are not concerned with protecting ALL of our rights. If its a right that one doesn’t care for, they don’t care.

AP
Im not making him into a saint and its not about some wacko like the left wants us to believe. It is about the rights of those people that were violated.
It just happens to be the rights turn to be blind right now.

Please read about Ruby Ridge. No warrant was served and his family did NOT survive to “fight another day.”

kctim,

“Please read about Ruby Ridge. No warrant was served and his family did NOT survive to “fight another day.””

I did here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

kctim, Ruby Ridge is a different story. And I understand your point.

kctim,

“Rocky, you are totally missing the point. Its not about Bush or clinton. It is about how we are a divided nation and people are allowing rights to be taken away when its “their” guy in office.”

We always fight for the rights that are taken away when the opposition is in power.
Thus the polarization.
It doesn’t matter who’s in power. Those that are out always feel put upon, always feel that their roghts are being abused. It has been that way for decades.
The folks in this country can’t seem to see past that which divides them to see what they actually have in common.

It has been that way for decades.

Or longer. President Washington’s heavy handed smackdown of the Whisky Rebellion, anyone? And I was just reading tonight about President Hoover using the Army to crush a protest by WWI veterans and their families who were screwed out of their benefits by Republicans.

Andrew, I share your concerns on this issue, completely. The precedent will one day be used for nefarious political purpose and the consequences of that could be nothing less than complete civil disorder or war in America’s streets. Anyone remember the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. Kent State?

What pops in to my mind when I think of Waco is, “who started it?”. I’m siding with the Davidians on this one, if they want to be a cult lead by a lunatic, let them be a cult led by a lunatic in peace.

you know the old saying, “Let sleeping dogs lie”