Third Party & Independents: Archives

A fair-minded person who wants to examine Bush’s performance for failures would be inclined to exonerate him completely based on posts like this one—an utter tangle of completely self-contradictory positions and outright error.

The very title of the post is illogical: “Bush Playing Blame Game.” But who has Bush blamed? The post contains not a single example of Bush blaming anybody for anything. If you read closely and try to follow David’s logic, you see—now follow closely—that Bush is said to be “blaming” someone because he has supported someone—Brown. Therefore, his very failure to blame Brown (who has blamed someone) becomes an example of blaming.

By this logic, if Bush were to endorse the views of say, Sean Penn, then he could equally be said to be blaming people because Sean Penn has blamed people. What contorted reasoning!

Now get this. Mr. Remer says that Bush should not be the one to conduct any investigation. Neither, however, can Bush afford to put off this investigation which he shouldn’t conduct. Huh?

But Mr. Remer doesn’t stop there. He already claims a whitwash in an investigation that hasn’t happened—that shouldn’t be conducted—and which we can’t afford to have delayed!

I tried to read this post with an open mind, but it simply doesn’t make sense on even the most basic logical and factual levels.

sanger, how naive. The President never blames anyone, he has his cabinet do it for him. Ever heard of plausible deniability. His FEMA director blames the victims. Remember, this is a president who delegates. He said that again this morning for TV cameras.

An open mind indeed. I guess for some readers one has to spell everything out. An Independent Counsel or a Congressional bipartisan investigation is what is called for here. Not the fox in the hen house. Oye!

A FEMA director with experience in emergency management or government agencies and there capabiliites is what’s called for.

Open mind, ya, right!

David, what a 180 degree turn. From “Bush Playing the Blame Game” to “Bush never blames anybody.”

If you want a congressional committee to oversee an investigation, then rest assured that there will be one. This is Congress’s responsibility, however, and not the President’s. If you want an
independent counsel (which seems an odd fit since that’s a measure used to investigate crimes), then maybe that’s what you should have said in the first place.

What you’ve done instead is construct a series of self-contradictory complaints. No matter what the President does or doesn’t do, you say he should do the opposite. As I’ve already noted, what you’ve said is that Bush shouldn’t delay conducting an investigation that he shouldn’t conduct—and to boot, that he’s whitewashing this investigation that hasn’t even happened.

I wish that weren’t so entirely typical of the Bush-bashing mentality. I’ve watched this kind of reasoning in the media for five years now, and the reason that Bush is still standing, I suspect, is that the public is wise to it. They may not like Bush, but his critics just aren’t able to make a compelling logical case against him. Unfortunately, it’s all emotion, partisan rancor, knee-jerk disproportional response.

Sanger,
You are talikng about the same President that publiclly stated that the Federal Government had no idea that the levee would break which was rated at a Cat 3 and hit by a Cat 4 or 5. Blame? No, for it would be wrong to blame “The Total Incompetence” of Our Society’s Leaders so lets just blame “The Poor.”

And here you go.

Ask and you shall receive.

I can’t believe in this day and age that people of low economic status can be disposed of on national T.V. for days, with little outrage coming from the citizens of the United States.
The United States government has been exposed.
I can’t believe how few of us really care.
Blaming Bush is not taking a stand against the blatant disregard for human life that we had to witness. These people were left to suffer and die because they did not have the means to escape New Orleans.
We as a nation are to blame. Our government proved just how ineffective they are in the face of tragedy, again.
We need to remove those who are in office who are unable to lead.
If we do not we are saying that what took place in New Orleans is acceptable in the eyes of the American people.

Henry, hard as this may be to believe, the decision to construct category 3-resistant levees was made in the 1960s during the LBJ administration.

Stupid? I totally agree. But that’s was done and now we’re living with the consequences.

Sanger,
You know I disagree with you & agree with David- but good posts!

David
Is Brown the right man for the job? Well, its possible he just failed his first big test. But that is no reason to make the guy as if he does not care one iota about the victims.
This is an example of using choice words to make a partisan point.
He did say that the victims who chose not to leave bear some responsibility and he is absolutely correct, they do. But he also said some other things that meant alot more:

“I don’t make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans,” he said.

He’s not judging anyone, he just can’t understand why some people refused to obey the MANDATORY evac.

“And to find people still there is just heart-wrenching to me because, you know, the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there.

He acts as if he does care about the victims and does not start the political blame game when given the opportunity.

“So, we’ve got to figure out some way to convince people that whenever warnings go out it’s for their own good,” Brown said. “Now, I don’t want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them.”

He’s worried about getting the people out for future events and getting help to those who need it NOW.
Doesn’t really follow that HE DOESN’T CARE line you started.

There needs to an investigation and we know there will be. Those who failed will be dealt with, I hope. Most importantly, better procedures will be implemented, again I hope.

I’m sorry. The ONLY people playing the “Blame Game” has been the left and its a pretty sad thing to be doing while there are still people needing saved.

For Those Ignorant:

Bush Junior uses Karl Rove and his Communications Director to sling mud at people. At his Press Conference, these two rats stood closer to Bush than Rumsfeld and the Joint Chief Head.

Tells you something, eh?

David,

I believe that everyone involved (local, state, and Federal Government) are playing the blame game. Local and State are blaming Federal, Federal is blaming local and state. I also believe that they are all correct to some extent.
I know from some of your other posts in other articles that you will disagree based off of the “Blame everybody = Blame nobody” idea. I believe that this is wrong. If everybody is to blame then everybody is to blame. Period.

That said I agree with you that there should be a non-partisan investigation of how this was handled both at the local, state and federal levels. Only then will we be able to see what blame should be pointed at whom and MUCH more importantly how we can improve the response time for both natural and “terrorist” disasters in the future.

Also, I completely agree about the FEMA director. Judging horses or whatever he did previously in no way qualified him to lead FEMA and that showed in this catastrophy. Hopefully he will be fired and the office of the presidency (Whatever party is in it) will learn that appointing “buddies” into such critical offices is un-acceptable.

One thing that’s been largely ignored in most of the debate is the fact that this was really a worst-case scenario. The major damage to the city wasn’t a direct hit from the hurricane itself, which hit New Orleans with a glancing blow, but rather the collapse of the levee. This was one of those things that had been looked at over the years, but catastrophic failures aren’t what most of us spend our time preparing for.

The New Madrid Fault has a 90% likelihood of generating a major earthquake, potentially far more devastating than anything to hit California, between today and 50 years from today. Such a catastrophic event could affect areas from Louisiana to Wisconsin and from Kansas to Pennsylvania. The loss to our national infrastructure may well be far worse than anything any of us have seen in our lifetime.

So why aren’t we all making firm plans so we’re prepared for this event when it happens? Well, mostly because we’ve all got other things on our plates most of the time and until we notice our buildings collapsing, we probably won’t give it the really serious thought that it deserves. I try to keep plenty of food and medical supplies on hand, just on general principles, but it rarely occurs to me that I might find myself homeless in the middle of winter, with no access to shelter, stores, gas stations, hospitals, etc. That’s a definite lack of planning on my part.

I know from past experience that it’s one thing to create contingency plans for various events, but it’s often quite something else when the stuff actually hits the fan, especially if the outcome is far worse than you reasonably expected. It shouldn’t be surprising that everyone from the Mayor of New Orleans to the President of the United States expected a lot of damage, given the history of the region, but certainly nothing like what actually happened.

The Central United States Earthquake Consortium was established in 1983 with funding support from FEMA, and its primary mission is, “… the reduction of deaths, injuries, property damage and economic losses resulting from earthquakes in the Central United States.”

That sounds pretty good. But when the big one hits, how much would you like to bet that a whole lot of things will (literally) fall through the crack?

Bradm, If everyone is to blame, then no one is Responsible. And if no one is Responsible, then why should we pay tax dollars in the name of protection the next time?

Nope, our tax dollars spent after 9/11 to deal with the next federal emergency of any kind, were not spent nearly well enough, and Katrina proves it.

FYP
VERY well said!!!
When that happens, the side playing the blame game will depend on who is in power, just like now.

“I try to keep plenty of food and medical supplies on hand”

So do I. Are you too, considered a “nut” for doing so?
A huge problem with the way our disasters work out now is the publics dependence on govt for everything. Why should the average person take it upon themself to prepare, when the govt says it will do it for them? Should it not be a joint effort?
Refuse the govt’s MANDATORY evac plans and then complain about the govt not caring enough to do everything for you.
Peoples priorities are so mixed up today.

kctim, said: “Is Brown the right man for the job? Well, its possible he just failed his first big test. But that is no reason to make the guy as if he does not care one iota about the victims.”

I didn’t say one word about whether he cares or not. What I did is report what he did say. Interpretations left to the reader as to whether he cares or not. I do believe he cares now, a whole lot more than he did before, who wouldn’t?

If the man hasn’t the imagination to answer why some people COULD not leave, of course, he would be confused as to why some people DID NOT leave. Dim bulb if I ever saw one, in my opinion.

Look, ask yourself if you were FEMA director, what would you have done with the power of the entire federal government at your disposal knowing a federal emergency is imminent? Then ask yourself if Brown is the right person for the job. I know a number of folks who would not have stood idle waiting for a governor to call.

Sanger,
That $150 Billion is a drop in the old bucket to what it will cost just to replce the infrastructure of the three states. How much you want to bet the cost will be closer to a Trilion Dollars of our tax dollars in funds and tax incentives?

As far as the levees being built in the 60’s, Our Elected Officails knew as far back as 93 that New Orleans was in trouble. It was not a matter of if, but when was a section of the levee system would break. Again, The Presient showed the World his ignorance on the subject and that is unacceptable considering that every hurricane season the subject of the levees comes up.

Winston Churchill’s quote from the 1930’s: “The responsibility,” of government, Churchill told the British Parliament “for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate. It is in fact, the prime object for which governments come into existence.”

It is the responsibility of the President, The Governor and the Mayor to provide for the basic protection and security of the people within their respective jurisdictions. Each of these executives has failed miserably. By virtue of the appointments they made, the actions they took (or didn’t take), and the timeliness with which they responded, the situation worsened.

Each of these executives and the administrative resources they appointed to work situations like this have failed. They all bear accountability. Those who will be up for re-election should be defeated. Those that were appointed should be fired. Those who will retire at the end of (his) 2nd term, will get to downplay the image of his guitar playing while New Orleans drowned.

You know, kctim, it is a fair criticsim to say that those who chose to stay and have a hurricane party after the mandatory evacutaiton order was given bear responsibility for what happened to them. But, from what I am hearing there are many, many thousands who lacked the resources to leave. Babies and mothers in hospitals, nursing home patients, the abject poor and low wage families who didn’t own a car, the poor retirees who could not afford medication let alone a bus ticket out.

It is this latter group, not the Katrina partiers, who had every right to expect that their paltry tax deductions dearly taken by the federal government from their pay checks, social security checks, medicare checks, would provide for them in an emergency such as this.

The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.

Stupid SOBs, why don’t they just go to their summer home in the Hamptons!

Isn’t this comment from the director of Fema similar to saying “Let them eat Cake”? If you don’t understand the plight of the poor, how do you expect to help them.

Issuing a mandatory evacuation order and doing nothing else, says those who can afford to leave, should, and those who can’t, DIE! That is a pretty cold position for a government to take when that government uses the force of law to extract money from these people’s earnings in the name of FEMA and Homeland Defense, don’t you think?

Well spoke, Dennis.

Henry, if our elected officials knew this as far back as 93, then which President are you refering to when you speak of unacceptable ignorance?

As for me, I don’t consider it the president’s personal responsibility, whether we’re talking about LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton or Bush (all presidents during this time period) to personally research, set standards for, build and inspect every bridge, tunnel, roadway, levee or dam in all fifty states. Local govermenments and other agencies MUST take this responsibility on themselves.

I consider the jury to still be out on Brown. What did he do that he shouldn’t have, I wonder? Or what responsibility did he not carry out that was actually FEMA’s responsibility to carry out? Is this more unthinking partisan mud-slinging on the part of the left? Or are there something to these crticisms of his conduct? I’d like to know the answer.

What I do know, however, is that many seem to be under the false impression that FEMA is responsible for “first responder” duties, which it is actually not. That falls to state and local govermenent and agencies, and that’s where the problem arose in New Orleans.

Read this piece in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazzette.

Another thing: the whole line about Brown’s only prior experience being in horses is utter nonsense—one more item arising from the false consciousness constructed by left-wing blogs. He was the Finance Committee Staff Director of his home state, a job in which where oversaw state fiscal issues. He oversaw emergency services as a city official, taught law, and most importantly was Deputy FEMA director for two years before he was named Undersecretary of EP&R.

For two years of his professional life he did this horse-job, and it’s utter nonsense to say that that was his prior work experience. Did cronyism play a part in his appointment. Undoubtedly. It always does. Just look at the number of Clinton’s Arkansas buddies who served in his cabinet—or look at RFK and JFK’s cozy little arrangement, for that matter. If you want to complain about cronyism, go ahead (I complain about it too) but it’s hardly a practice that was invented by George Bush and it doesn’t mean that someone is not qualified to do a job.

Because things go wrong or things are difficult to accomplish—especially things related to cataclymic natural events covering a geographical area the size of England—doesn’t mean that someone was incompetent, corrupt, or not fit for their job.

Is it maybe just possible that are accomplishments that mere human power simply cannot achieve—especially not within a couple of news cycles?

“What I did is report what he did say”

Actually, you picked one thing he did say, disregarded the context of it and used it to show him in a negative light.

“It is this latter group, not the Katrina partiers, who had every right to expect”

And maybe if those who could have left would have done so, more resources could have been used on the hospitals and elderly.

Playing the blame game when nobody knows anything about what happened, is partisan politics at its worst.

“Look, ask yourself if you were FEMA director”

You know I disagree with the existence of FEMA. If I was director, I would dismantle it.

“Then ask yourself if Brown is the right person for the job”

No, I never have thought he was the right guy for the job and IF it comes out where he is at fault, he should and will be held accountable.
But at this stage, NOBODY has any idea what went wrong, they are too busy helping people and pulling in the dead.

Sanger, FEMA is part of Homeland Defense. FEMA and Homeland Defense had an obligation to help the Gulf states protect American citizens from a known and impending DISASTER.

Or are you under the impression that the 9/11 model of sitting on warnings until after disaster strikes and then acting is a great Bush adminstration policy. Appears Bush thinks so. For that is what his administration has done, yet again.

kctim, his words stand for what they say, in, out, or dancing all around context. Get real. Those dead people in their homes, nursing homes, hospitals, bear some responsibility for being dead. His words can’t be spun away, kctim.

Winston Churchill’s quote from the 1930’s: “The responsibility,” of government, Churchill told the British Parliament “for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate. It is in fact, the prime object for which governments come into existence.”

It is the responsibility of the President, The Governor and the Mayor to provide for the basic protection and security of the people within their respective jurisdictions. Each of these executives has failed miserably.

Funny, but I don’t remember Churchill resigning after the London Blitz when he had “failed to provide for the public’s safety.” After all, if anybody dies—as a result of hurricanes or anything else—then they obviously weren’t safe, and this must be the fault of some public official. Right?

Whenever somebody dies, a paramedic ought to resign, I suppose. If somebody is mugged or murdered, a policeman should be driven from his job in disgrace. For that matter, all of the school teachers in New Orleans should be fired because they failed to instill proper civic virtues in all those looters, rapists and arsonists.

Or does this new rule only apply to public servants who happen to be Republican? I think I already know the answer.

Or are you under the impression that the 9/11 model of sitting on warnings until after disaster strikes and then acting is a great Bush adminstration policy. Appears Bush thinks so. For that is what his administration has done, yet again.

Okay, so now we have a specific and tangible accusation that at least makes sense on its surface. So now please explain what warnings Bush sat on and refused to share or act on and please provide evidence for that claim. I hope that the accusation really is based on fact and not unfocused partisan emotion—so I’ll give the benefit of the doubt until I know which it is.

Sanger,
The problems with NO’s Levees is considered “Common Knowledge” even a ten year old knows that they have been a problem for years. And considering that President Bush was the Governor next door in the 90’s and falls under The Gulf States should leave no doubt in your mind that he was made clearly aware of the fall out if/when the Levees in NO broke. As Governor, his job would of been to make plans if NO Harbors were shut down because his state ports would have to absorb some of the Sea Traffic.

So unless you are willing to concede that The President of The United States does not have to have Common Knowledge and Common Sense, President Bush misquoted himself when he said that they had no idea that the Levees in NO would break.

Mr. Brown of FEMA is the excape goat for the adminastration’s Homeland Security Director Mr, Chertoff and his implementcation of “The National Response Plan” on Sept.1, 2005. By putting into play a plan no one trained for or had any legal precedence for the first time allowed valueable time to laspes while the State & Federal Lawyers fought over what “IS” is.

Sanger wrote:

“Whenever somebody dies, a paramedic ought to resign, I suppose. If somebody is mugged or murdered, a policeman should be driven from his job in disgrace. For that matter, all of the school teachers in New Orleans should be fired because they failed to instill proper civic virtues in all those looters, rapists and arsonists.

Or does this new rule only apply to public servants who happen to be Republican? I think I already know the answer.”

Sanger, quite often, if tragedies are worsened by incompetence, the leaders of the function (police, government, health care system, etc.) are quite rightly fired. If a Hospital administrator causes injury as a result of incompetence, they are generally fired. If a policeman is involved in an incident whereby his negligence either in omission or in action caused injury or death, then yes they are fired. If I wasn’t clear in my point that those responsible should be fired because of incompetence, then I apologize. If you appoint someone without strong credentials to lead something like FEMA, then you are acting incompentently. Seemingly, Mr. Bush has done so.

Churchill wasn’t forced to resign and instead was voted out of office. I’m not sure the reasons he was voted out had nothing to do with London being generally destroyed.

By the way, the governor of Louisiana is a Democrat, so this isn’t just a Bush bashing post.

Brown announced a Federal Emergency on Saturday. What else did he do besides make a proclamation. Did he mobilize relief supplies to distribution centers just outside the area to be hit, to rush them in after the storm had passed?

Did he ask himself if such a storm might knock out communications and set up a contingency communications system with the state government officials likely to be affected?

Did he contact companies and corporations who would have the needed supplies and ask them to set aside a reserve to tap for victim relief?

No, no, and no from what I can tell so far. I am no government emergency specialist, but I can think of a half dozen other things I would have done in his place. Not the least of which would have been to contact the justice department to find out what the limits, if any, existed in the administration of relief should it become necessary.

David,
Like you, I am no Emergency Specailist; however, I have seen enough State & Federal Agencies implement new policies and plans to understand that EVRY TIME they implement such a plan our Lawyers go nuts having to read, interpet, and implement such Law.

The problem was not with FEMA, although both political parties are allowing The Media to hype that story, but with the Actions of the Director of Homeland Security enacting “The Federal Response Plan” for the very first time without anyone being trained under its policies. Now, I could say something about that; however, the editor here would yell at me serverely for over stepping “The Line.”

Nevertheless, National Security still matters and I can’t fault our leadership for down playing that side of the argument. The question that Americans need to asking Congress today is why The National Response Plan was implemented in the first place. Is this disaster so big that only The Federal Government can do the job or was it a political move so that President Bush could reward his buddies over at Haliburton(sp?) with some more of our tax dollars?

Surely the Businesses in those states effected could of rebuilt the area damaged, but by demanding that the National Response Plan be used places all jobs to Bush’s Friends. A political tangled web has been spun by the actions and words of Mr. Chertoff, now the question is will the Gulf States become another Iraq.

Henry, so now we’re reduced to saying that because Bush was once a governor of a bordering state, he should have known? There’s another state that borders Louisiana, you know—one directly to the north whose governor supplied the country with a president even before Bush. And this guy was governor for quite a bit longer. So why didn’t that guy fix the problem if it was so well known by neighboring governors? Maybe neither really did know. How do we know they did?

David, short of having a bug on Brown’s telephone, you have no way of knowing who Brown talked to and what he said, and all you’re doing is speculating that perhaps he did nothing and talked to nobody.
Again, a very serious accusation but one totally unsupported by anything but your own speculations.

Much less do you know “what he asked himself,” and I’m rather surprised to see you turning your attacks into an excersise in creative writing—something in which Brown is a fictional character and you’re the author telling us his thoughts and feelings.

Dennis, Henry and David all seem to be engaged in the basic logical fallacy of circular reasoning here. A disaster has occurred as a result of incompetence. But how do we know that there was incompetence? Because there was a disaster.

I’m sorry, but things are not always that simple. And when political point-scoring amidst a great human tragedy is your motive, you should take a long hard look in the mirror before throwing around accusations that you can not or will not support with facts.

Sanger,
I just pointed out what is “Common Knowledge” and President Bush’s response that he did not know that the Levees would break. Therefore, unless you are stating for the record that our President does not need to have “Common Knowledge” and “Common Sense” than you must see the Ignorance of his statement.

No, President Bush told Mr. Chertoff to deal with the problem while he was on vacation and that fact can’t be denied. The problems arouse when Mr. Chertoff enacted The National Response Plan that no one had every trained or attempted to implement before. Therefore, President Bush does have to take full responsibilty for his Cabinet’s words and actions. Or are you saying that it is in The Inherent Best Interest of All Americans that we are lead by a group of Citizens that have no Common Knowledge, Common Sense, or Common Responsibilty for the way that they govern? Remember, Ignorance of The Law is no excuse.

Sanger is engaging in hyperbole. We all know a catastrophe would have occured regardless of preparations. How mitigated if prepared is the question?

sanger,

“Henry, if our elected officials knew this as far back as 93, then which President are you refering to when you speak of unacceptable ignorance?

As for me, I don’t consider it the president’s personal responsibility, whether we’re talking about LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton or Bush (all presidents during this time period) to personally research, set standards for, build and inspect every bridge, tunnel, roadway, levee or dam in all fifty states. Local govermenments and other agencies MUST take this responsibility on themselves.”

Let’s talk about which President of the above pulled funding for the building of levees by the ACE.

Then let’s talk about which President of the above actually started FEMA and made it a Cabinet level position.

Then which of the above Presidents made FEMA a powerfull agency, that actually planned for posible disasters?

Then after all of that let’s talk about which of the above Presidents eviserated FEMA and downgraded it from the cabinet to a part of an even bigger bureaucracy.

Or is this going to be just a “blame Clinton first” game?

David,
After word searching “National Response Plan 2005” on Google, I ran across the Homeland Security site the houses the complete plan. While only a Layman (not learned in Law or Criminal Justice) I now must ask myself if Mr. Chertoff had the authority to impose the plan in the first place.

Because while the three states were greatly damaged by the storm, did it reach the point that with proper & timely Federal Assistance under FEMA that the States resources were overwelmed and could not deal with the problem. Considering the History of these States dealing with other hurricanes in the past sucessfully, a point of order must be called because Hurricanes are not directly mentioned in the overview. Can you help?

Perry, thrust! Excellent comments, Rocky. Them’s the kind of facts one won’t find in Bush’s leading of the investigation as to what went wrong and what needs to be done for the future. Because the objective answer is to replace the current president with one who has the American people, from the poorest in New Orleans to Bill Gates, as his number one priority. Not oil companies, preemptive revenge wars, destruction of public property (national parks, ANWR, BLM land, forests, air, water) and his photo ops with victims.

Rocky, I do not blame Clinton in the least. The point is that Bush is no more to blame than Clinton on the basis of having been a governor of a state bordering Louisiana. It’s the Democrats here who want to toss blame on the basis of such skimpy backdoor reasoning.

When is this whole canard about underfunded levees going to die? The levee that broke was one that HAD been funded—it was a modern and recently completed project. Faulty decades old planning—not modern funding, caused this disaster.

I’ve heard plenty of people complain about FEMA’s being placed under the Department of Homeland Security and suggest that this somehow contributed to the problem. But how and why? Wasn’t one of the reasons for uniting the functions of different agencies to actually cut down on red tape and beaurocracy? To make things more efficient?

If it didn’t work out as planned, we need to know why, but all I hear is people shouting that there was a change made without indicating what problems actual negative effects those changes led to.

So how would things have been so obviously different if FEMA was a stand alone agency? Have there been any stories out there about inefficiencies as a result of FEMA’s status under Homeland Security? Is this more smoke and mirrors from our good friends on the left who are out to cast blame on George Bush without knowing or caring about the facts?

Sanger,
I don’t know how much you know about implementing plans under the multi-agency soup we call our government, but enacting a plan that has not had the kinks worked out of it reminds me of when FEMA went through their major changes back in the early 90’s. Thus, this was not the time nor the place to enact The National Respone Plan of Homeland Security for the very first time. Especially when no training between the Agencies have taken place since the plan was announced in January of this year.

We are going in circles with these arguments.

The question for liberals is how much power do you want George Bush to have? You are blaming him for not overriding local authorities in time of crisis, taking away their municipal responsibilities during ordinary times and not managing their fleet of school buses and local facilities during the evacuation. Do you really want him to have that much power? Would you really feel comfortable if he interpreted his mandate broadly enough to micro-manage the sovereign State of Louisiana?

This was a major natural disaster, exacerbated by a century of trying to hold back nature in the form of the waters surrounding New Orleans. Many of the people were essentially living at the bottom of a dry lake (technically a drained swamp). It would be really surprising if everything had gone perfectly in those situations.

There are a couple realities here beyond the storm. Most Americans do not want to give their Federal government the kinds of powers you advocate. We can argue from misery on this occasion, but such a powerful central government would be too high a price to pay to avoid such a catastrophe.

It is very easy to judge after the fact. I know you can cite studies and statements about the POSSIBILITY and evidently “everyone knew” the levee would breach. If that is the case, why didn’t the municipal authorities in New Orleans take the people out in those unused school busses? Why didn’t the governor of Louisiana deploy the needed guard and state police? If everyone knew this would happen, why did so many people stay in New Orleans? Not everyone was incapacitated. Hundreds, at least, seemed able bodied enough to walk around and loot.

You expect George Bush to understand the intricacies of Louisiana hydrology just because he used to be governor of a neighboring state. What about those who actually live there?

Excellent observations, Jack. It’s good to see that some media reports are finally starting to show some of the same restraint and judicious logic demonstrated by your post.

Jack,
Once President Bush told Mr. Chertoff of Homelend Security to handle the porblem and he enacted “The National Response Plan” everything and I do mean everything fell into the Presidents lap. Why does the Right think that it is ok for their Leaders to be wrong by Actions and Words, but cry when the Left takes the same stance?

The problem is and has been from Sept.1, 2005 that the NRP has never been used or trained for by the Agencies of the Local, State, and Federal Government. And for a political party that say they believe that State’s Rights are Paramount, the mere idea that these States have to surrender Absolute Authority to the Federal Government should make all those on the Right stand up and scream. What if President Clinton would of proposed those conditions on Flordia during Hurricane Andrew, would you feel the same way?

“Dennis, Henry and David all seem to be engaged in the basic logical fallacy of circular reasoning here. A disaster has occurred as a result of incompetence. But how do we know that there was incompetence? Because there was a disaster.”

Actually, I said no such thing. My post dealt with the leadership having to assume responsibility to the REACTION to the disaster. I will state my point again. The response to the disaster seems full of miss-steps up and down the line with Federal, State and Local officials all seemingly caught with their pants down. My perspective on this is that as executives they are ultimately responsible for the performance of their teams.

Please get it right when you decide someone is using circular logic. I never said they caused it, but I am saying their collective lack of responsiveness exacerbated the problem.

Dennis

Jack said: “This was a major natural disaster, exacerbated by a century of trying to hold back nature in the form of the waters surrounding New Orleans. Many of the people were essentially living at the bottom of a dry lake (technically a drained swamp). It would be really surprising if everything had gone perfectly in those situations.”

And you want to defend a President who is already committed to rebuilding this situation. Build a new city in a sinking pit next to the ocean. No wonder so many think he hasn’t a lick of sense. How about rebuilding New Orleans NORTH of Lake Ponchatrain on solid ground? Duh. That would be expecting to much creative brain power from this administration.

Henry said:

Because while the three states were greatly damaged by the storm, did it reach the point that with proper & timely Federal Assistance under FEMA that the States resources were overwelmed and could not deal with the problem.”

Henry, without researching it, I can offer this. Communication infrastructure was destroyed, preventing local authorities from assessing the damange and coordinating plans. Would this not constitute the state’s resources having been overwhelmed? I would think communications would be one of the absolute most vital of resources necessary. The military comes equipped with its own surveillance, assessment and communication infrastructures.

Dennis, circular logic is like: “I voted for Bush, therefore he can do no wrong, which is why I voted for him.”

I see nothing like that in my comments or article. Care to point out what is you see that looks circular? Perhaps it is a square which you are choosing to view on edge, making indistinguishable from a circle. :-)

Jack-
No, not in circles. We don’t blame Bush for the natural disaster that was Katrina. We blame him for the policies and subsequent actions that lead to the artificial disasters, and which showed less than enthusiastic pursuit of hardening a city known to be vulnerable to flooding.

For an argument to be circular, the conclusion would have to be the premise of its own argument. We can bring up premises separately about what authority and experience certain people had, what changes had taken place in the past few years in FEMA’s bureaucratic situation, and what the funding levels were for projects that were considered critical for reinforcing NOLA’s protection against the sea.

And yes, there is a difference between incomplete efforts, which the strengthening of the levees would have been, and nonexistent ones, which they turned out to be in last year’s Budget. It’d be a lot easier to get people off of Bush’s back if the evidence were that he had been raising the funds for NOLA’s levees, and had streamlined and strengthened FEMA and DoHS.

That’s not the evidence we have, though.

You can carp about school buses (which had nobody to drive them) the lack of deployment of guard and polices (in a city where communications were down), and able bodied people wading through floodwaters (only able bodied for the short time their health will bear the thirst, starvation, and disease from the floodwaters), but the realities for local and state authorities are much more complicated than you’re willing to admit.

You expect George Bush to understand the intricacies of Louisiana hydrology just because he used to be governor of a neighboring state. What about those who actually live there?

It doesn’t take a degree in hyrdology to understand that water flows downhill, and what happens to a city below sea-level when the levees protecting it break. No offense, but are your standards that low for leadership?

David,

didn’t see anything in your posts looking circular, I was responding to Sanger..

Dennis

David,
I’m like you in that I have not really went through the NRP in deepth. I thought you have may looked at as it was being developed.

As far as communications for the area effected, wasn’t Congress under Homeland Security suppose to upgrade all local sytems after 9/11. Besides under Federal Assistance Hi-fi VHF two way radios (80’s technology)could of been loaned under the old FEMA Rules and Regulations. Yet, still I can not help think that the NRP was the problem given the very limited information being released about it.

As far as circular thinking, check the timeline of Human Events. Everything was fine and in place without a problem until Monday Sept, 1, 2005 after Katrina came a shore and Mr. Chertoff put into play the NRP. Than all hell broke lose in NO/LA. The question that Alabama & Mississippi Citizens needs to ask their Governors is why they sold them out to the Federal Government and still didn’t get help for 3 or 4 days.

Good Article, David.

People who feel the President and FEMA did a terrible job with the disaster response are far and away in the majority.

From Rassmussen:

Fed Response to Katrina Gets Thumbs Down Survey of 1,000 Adults September 2-3, 2005 Federal Response to Hurricane Katrina Excellent 12% Good 16% Fair 25% Poor 45%

Looking at these statistics from Rassmussen (conducted two days ago), I think it’s safe to say that:

12% of American’s are complete sycophants willing to forgive any and all wrongdoing of this president and his administration.

16% are aware it might hurt their party to say he isn’t doing well, so despite the tortured whispering of their consciences, they keep in lockstep.

25% are going to withhold most of their criticism until they learn the enormous numbers of dead old and/or sick and/or poor people who drowned en mass in New Orleans.

45% of us already understand that the lot of them are complete idiots, and that their response to this emergency was an outrage of hugely criminal proportions.

That’s my take anyway…

IMO, we must seek to IMPEACH GEORGE W. BUSH AND HIS ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION — for the safety of America.

Does anyone know if the Emergency Broadcast System (ya know: ‘beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Had this been an actual emergency… blah blah blah) had anythinng to say when Katrina hit?

I don’t think I remember it doing anything on 9/11 either. Where are those guys in all of this?

OK - as for excusing any delays (Federal, local or State) on the part of the government for ‘red tape’ and ‘waiting on legal decisions’…

SCREW THAT!

If we can get 1st graders to practice running into the hall and putting their heads between their knees to prepare for an emergency… don’t ya think we could’ve expected that all elected officials could’ve done the same. The idea behind a fire drill is that - just in case - you won’t have to rely on someone else to help you get out of a burning building. Isn’t this something FEMA and Homeland Security should’ve tried running through a few times - just to work out the kinks?

It’s like the whole government was walking around the smoke filled building - asking each other what that horrible, loud noise was.

For starters – everyone who was surprised that the levees broke should have to go clean up the Superdome, on their own.

Adrienne, you know I hate to quibble, but you need to look more carefully at that poll you link to.

28% say the federal goverment has done an excellent or good job. 23% say fair. 45% say poor.

This means that 53% of Americans say that the federal goverment has done an excellent, good or fair job handling the tragedy.

From these numbers you draw the conclusion that “People who feel the President and FEMA did a terrible job with the disaster response are far and away in the majority”? Far and away? The majority?

We now have bad math as well as circular reasoning being employed in the Democrat’s partisan attack on the adminsitration.

—-
We now have bad math as well as circular reasoning being employed in the Democrat’s partisan attack on the adminsitration.
—-
Didn’t see anything saying ‘democrat’ on that post. Why can’t you make a statement or argument without adding in assumptions or generalizations? It weakens what you say.

Ha! You’re hilarious sanger!
Adding the “fair” to the “excellent and good” numbers. By your reasoning I could say that the numbers who think they did only a fair to poor job stand at 70%!!!
I have a strong feeling that when they start adding up the enormous numbers of corpses, the numbers of those rating the government response as “poor” is sure to grow.

Jack,

The powers we’re worried about Bush having aren’t controls over bus routes. Try again.

Sanger,
Please stop trying to spin. Take a poll of the 90,000 plus citizens who were denied assistance, fod and water for 3-4 days and ask them what they thought of the Government response. Are you willing to say they would rate the job done as good or excellent.

A thousand people who was not directly effected by Katrina or have never known what it is like to rough it does not qualify as a sample. Ask the same people in your poll if they believe that they could survive under the conditions in NO or Mississippi and than relook at the numbers.

Support President Bush if you like, but Reasonable and Logical Citizens understand that be it Democrat or Republican Leadership in time of trouble, America as a Society must hold Our Elected Officails feet to the fire.

In my opinion everyone involved had a hand in the right or wrong of slow response to the disaster from Katrina in New Orleans and surrounding communities. It is called teamwork! With teamwork there is a plan and all plans have a beginning and an end. In the case of New Orleans the beginning simply was not carried through. There is a written plan for that city concerning evacuation including the reasons for evacuating and how to do it. Someone dropped the ball. By then it was to late. The worse of it is no one notifyed anyone on the team that the ball was dropped. By the time they found out it was really too late. Seeing the urgency of saving lives the proactive people jumped in and did the best they could. Sadly making these people appear being at fault. So focus on the end of the plan and go back later to see what happened at the beginning. And probably what will be found out is that more then one person dropped the ball. But why is the question. Not political in nature I do hope.

Addrienne, you began your post by saying that those who think the President did a “terrible job” were the “vast majority.”

No matter how you bend your dictionary, however, those who think a “terrible” job was done can not include those who think a “fair” job was done. Why do I have to explain this?

Of course those who say a fair job was done don’t belong in the “excellent” column either. I never said they did. All I’m saying is that more than half of the public has given the President at least a passing grade, that the idea of a “terrible job” is the minority view. It’s even a smaller minority, I’ll add, than those who voted against Bush in the last election.

Let me also say this: I myself think a “fair” job was done by the federal authorities, and if asked in a poll that’s what I’d say. I don’t see it as miraculous and brilliant. Neither do I see it incompetent or negligent. It’s pretty much what I’d expect, considering the huge scope of the problem and the total breakdown on the state and local level.

vivian -

Do you have a link to this plan? I’d like to check it out…

Okay, Henry. I’ll take that poll of ninety thousand people if you’ll put on your hip waders and go with me.

I have no idea what the responses would be and niether do you, so let’s not conduct a debate by imaginary polls. Ninety thousand hurricane victims is not the same as ninety thousand readers of the Daily Kos.

I suspect, though, that plenty of those victims are grateful for the help they got and many others are angry at the mayor, the governor, the president, themselves, those of their fellow citizens who raped or robbed them, the whole of humanity and probably God too.

Tony

Rush Limbaugh site

vivian…

No idea at all what that URL is.

Tony,

rushlimbaugh.com

OK… now how does anyone know whether the plan was enacted or not? I went to the New Orleans web site and found a much cleaner version of the document. It’s a pretty detailed plan - and I have no idea the initial steps vs later steps… it doesn’t really go into enacting the plan - this just spells out details.

Sanger,
Call it fair if you like, but given the facts and the timeline of Natural Events which caused NO to be flooded there is no excuse. The Levees broke well after Katrina passed over the area and the NRP was issued by The Whitehouse. Therefore, Mr. Chertoff was in charge and had the authority to do whatever it took given the reports on TV alone.

Politics is Politics, but if this is the very best our Republican Government Leadership is Washington can do to assist their fellow man than maybe, just maybe it is tme for new leadership of the party. Even President Bush recognizes that no training and a poorly executed NRP is the trouble that stop The Big Green Machine. Now the next few days will tell a story that even those who thought the Government did the very best they could will be shocked.

If Trail Lawyers are trashed for standing up for “We the Consumers than what will your party say when Corporate/Government Lawyers are found to be at fault? No, action should of been taken quicker at all levels of government; however, the SOB in Charge was clearly the Head of Homeland Security. Thus, President Bush must take personal responsibilty for his Cabinet Members. Or is personal responsiblity like State’s Rights just a talking point for The Big Red Machine?

My guess if it were enacted we would not be discussing what was right or wrong in the response. Fox news pointed out tonight what was not done at the local government level and what was done but too late. A lot was not done inspite of the strong urging of the national government officials. The national government made all the preparations before the disaster to speed things along after the disaster for aid but the first step did not happen. Total evacuation. So back to the question WHY. Discussions with the local officials would be a start.

vivian meredith,
NO survived Hurricane Katrina, it was only several hours later that the Levees broke and begun to flood the city. At that point the NRP was in play and was when NO needed to be Totally Evacuated. Why the Media can not seperate the two stories is beyond my control; however, that fact and the inability for Mr. Chertoff to do whatever it took to assist NO is what is in question. Not the damage caused by Kartina or the citizens being evacuated before Katrina hit land. If the Levees would of held or the government would of been able to stop the levees from flooding over half the city, NO would of been fine.

sanger,

Blah, blah, blah, whatever.
You want to know just how horrifyingly bad a job Bush, Chertoff, and Brown have done responding to this disaster?
So terribly bad a job that for the first time in their Fox careers, Shepard Smith and Geraldo simply couldn’t play along with the farce when Hannity attempted his standard GOP whitewash!
I must warn you Foxnews viewers out there, this bit of unscripted reality and human emotion may leave you rather confused and bewildered…

It was funny watching Shepard Smith contradicting Bill O’Liely in the Spin Zone. Its too bad so few in Fox News actually GO to the places they report.

vivian -

You might try switching news sources, or adding them… Rush and Fox aren’t going to give much more than a single view of what’s happening.

What would you suggest?

Most things I look into show both sides fairly which is what I am looking for.

Vivian-
Rush and Fox are obviously partisans for the right. The only way you get both sides fairly is in an environment like this, where both the Liberals and the Conservatives get to speak for themselves in strong voices.

If you only listen to Rush and watch Fox news, your view of how we Liberals really think, about where our loyalties lie will be hopelessly distorted.

The firefighters of this country, as usual, wanted to do what they were trained to do: be heros, save people, help people…

Bush has them handing out fliers and posing as extras in his press conferences.

The revealing finish to this article:

Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.

But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew’s first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.

Which does it seem this president is more interested in: Disaster Management, or image management? And which do y’all think is going to save lives and get people back on their feet?

Jack and Sanger
Man do you guys have a talent for distorting other peoples arguements and positions!!

I am truely amazed!

NO ONE is BLAMING BUSH for the Hurricane, NOR for the Levy’s BREAKING.

Criticizing HIM for stupidity and stupid comments perhaps (i.e. public displays of ignorance ala “no one could forsee the levy’s failing” — side note — none of the Levy’s failed! — the CANAL WALLS failed, — these structures are much less robust (and distinctly different) than the levy’s proper.)

They are also RIGHTLY criticizing him for his (once again) delayed response in a crisis!
His lack of leadership
and all of his other failings that have been on public display for the past week.
As a leader of the biggest, baddest, most powerful nation on earth (not for long at this rate, and with this crowd at the helm) he IS A TOTAL EMBARRASMENT AND HAS JUST PASTED A HUGE TARGET ON ALL OF OUR BACKS!!
Talk about “giving aid and comfort to our enemies”!!
This latest example of the Keystone Kops routine must surely embolden our terrorist enemies at how easy it will be to totally disrupt our nation!
Thanks a ton, Shrub Jr.

—-
Discussions with the local officials would be a start.
—-
I agree that - at all levels - there must be accountability and learning from this inept response to the disaster. However, it was the collapse of the Federally owned and managed levy system that caused the catastrophic damage to New Orleans… why should we not be demanding answers at that level first.

Also - it was the job of our Homeland Security to get everyone prepared to handle situations exactly like this. This was their first opportunity to show us all exactly what they have accomplished since 9/11. I think they showed us more than they cared to.

“The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.”

This is an undeniable statement of fact

“The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency says the government has known for a long time how vulnerable New Orleans would be in a major hurricane like Katrina.”

As have the mayor of NO, the governor of LA, all public and private utility companies in NO and LA and, the 485 thousand citizens of the city of NO

“You know, kctim, it is a fair criticsim to say that those who chose to stay and have a hurricane party after the mandatory evacutaiton order was given bear responsibility for what happened to them. But, from what I am hearing there are many, many thousands who lacked the resources to leave. Babies and mothers in hospitals, nursing home patients, the abject poor and low wage families who didn’t own a car, the poor retirees who could not afford medication let alone a bus ticket out.”

It has been reported that the city of NO had an evacuation plan. When you develop an evacuation plan IT MUST INCLUDE A COMPONENT TO ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF THE CATAGORIES OF PEOPLE DESCRIBED IN THE ABOVE QUOTE

You cannot design a plan that accommodates only the physically able

As I read more and more posts from the folks with views from the left and Liberal it seems that the general concept is that nobody has to bear any responsibility for their own well being. It is up to government to ensure that every living breathing soul is taken care of.

There will be lots of blame, responsibility or whatever you want to call it to go around after the “investigation”. Sadly, the anti-administration folks (democrats, liberals, blue column people)will never believe or accept that anyone or anything is responsible other than President Bush and FEMA. Tunnel vision once again.

There is an excellent article on Salon this morning that describes how the Bush administration has been deliberately distancing itself from natural disaster-relief since 9/11. So, yes, perhaps on the one hand, local and state officials have been given more power over the past four years. Does that mean they are primarily responsible, or does it mean that it was a dumb-ass decision to make in the first place because it can’t possibly work?

Close coordination between federal and state officials was key to the success of the Clinton administration in dealing with natural disasters. Yesterday, I saw a clip of Bush saying that the investigation will probe the relationship between local, state, and federal levels in natural disasters. Firstly, shouldn’t this kind of thing be worked out BEFORE a disaster happens, not during or after? Secondly, as the quotes from the article below indicate, this relationship had been worked out in Clinton’s administration and was working very well.

During the 1990s, FEMA was routinely praised as one of the best-functioning federal agencies. Its response to the Midwestern floods of 1993, the Northridge earthquake of 1994, and 1995’s Oklahoma City terrorist attack are considered models of emergency response. By contrast, its performance during Katrina is almost universally acknowledged to have been abysmally poor.

So what happened?

According to George Haddow, who served as the deputy chief of staff at FEMA under James Lee Witt, Bill Clinton’s FEMA director, instead of working with local officials to try to minimize the impacts of an impending storm, the White House has decided its best strategy is to keep its distance from people on the ground.

Under the Clinton administration’s FEMA, a storm of Katrina’s magnitude would have prompted federal and state officials to actually meet in order to coordinate their response. “You’re all sitting in the same room when the things happened — the Midwest flood, the Northridge quake, the Oklahoma City bombing and all the disasters we responded to. We were in the same room together and nobody had to point fingers.” Haddow says.

When people on the ground needed something, they knew who in the federal government to ask, and when the federal government had extra resources at the ready — cops from Chicago, say, or water from Wal-Mart — it would know where to send them. Contrast that situation to what happened after Katrina, when both Michael Chertoff, the secretary of Homeland Security, and Michael Brown, the FEMA director, admitted to several reporters that they had no idea that people were starving at the New Orleans Convention Center, even though the grim scene there had been played and replayed on television all day.

The Bush administration’s distance from local disaster-relief officials is by design. From the moment Bush stepped into office, he’s been determined to move away from the coordinated state/local/federal disaster-relief approach used by Clinton. The federal government became even less involved in natural disaster relief after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when FEMA’s mission was shifted toward responding to terrorist attacks.

State and local disaster-relief officials have been complaining about the lack of federal involvement in emergency response for some time. Trina Sheets, the executive director of the National Emergency Management Association, which represents local emergency personnel, told Salon that “since the Department of Homeland Security was established there has been a steady degradation of the capabilities.”

Stephen

How DO the Liberals really think??? I think it is a secret or they don’t think all the time. All I see is bad results. Whether it be bashing or downright wrong judgement. Don’t get me wrong I have voted both ways and am totally unhappy with the Liberals right now. In my opinion there should be no party. We all should just vote for the most qualified person. Get rid of the parties altogether.

Isabelle,

Because of 911 things had to change and we are still learning those changes. I don’t think any administration should be rewarded or blamed. Times are different now with all the terrorism.

steve smith:
“Sadly, the anti-administration folks (democrats, liberals, blue column people)will never believe or accept that anyone or anything is responsible other than President Bush and FEMA. Tunnel vision once again.”

And tragically, many of you on the right are still willing to blindly believe whatever bullshit lies and spin they ladle out to you, and mindlessly continue support their unceasing incompetence and failure of leadership.

Louisiana Governor Blanco’s August 28th request for federal assistance.

But…..Henry the local government knew before hand the levees would not withstand a cat 4 hurricane. Did they do a half evacuation then say hey….lets wait to see if the levees will fail.

Adrienne,

If I had not included the last paragraph in my post you would not have responded at all to the other points which are certainly discussible on a rational level.

You keep making my point that you are so focused on the blame and hate game that all else goes unread and cast aside.

We just need qualified people who work for the people and not their party.

The Liberals planted the seed of bashing and blaming and now we have the domino effect. We all need to stand united no matter what. To fight among ourselves only will weaken the country. Playing right into the hands of the terrorist.

Ahh… There it is, vivian. Thank you! Holding the Bush administration accountable for anything plays right into the hands of the terrorists. Brilliant!

Obviously you are a strong liberal. Lets start holding the Liberals accountable for anti americanism. Guess what! I use to be a liberal. I am ashamed of them. And….if the conservatives acted the same way I would not be with them either. I am for the most qualified person who is for the people not just a party.

steve smith:
“You keep making my point that you are so focused on the blame and hate game that all else goes unread and cast aside.”

You’re right. At the moment, I’ve not been writing much here because I can’t even discuss this without losing my temper in a very big way.
I am fully aware that there are and will be different levels where blame can be placed, but the glaringly inesapable fact remains: FEMA’s complete lack of a plan and excruciatingly slow response is directly responsible for total neglect, that lead to widespread suffering and death, which equals MURDER.
Now, we can talk about the storm, we can talk about who knew the hurricane would cause a flood, we can talk about the failures at the state and local levels, we can talk about the “personal responsibility” of poor, sick, and old people to find a way clear of the danger, but we cannot escape what unfolded before our eyes last week — FEMA DID NOT HELP THOSE PEOPLE TO WATER, TO FOOD, OR TO SAFETY.
The way I view it, there were really three disasters — one right after the other. There was the Hurricane. There was the Flood. AND THERE WAS THE FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY’S RESPONSE.

And yes, I HATE them for it, and I BLAME them entirely for that suffering and those deaths which have come after the other two disasters, BECAUSE IT BELONGS TO NO ONE ELSE BUT THEM.
And I have nothing but scorn for the fact that so many of you on the Right seem unwilling to admit that this is the case, because it is ludicrous.

Vivian:

No accountability! No responsibility! Hurrah! It’s a political free-for-all.
Sadly, this is the current reality. The government is no longer interested in governing. This fiasco just shows that they are no longer even interested in pretending.

And yes, I HATE them for it, and I BLAME them entirely for that suffering and those deaths which have come after the other two disasters, BECAUSE IT BELONGS TO NO ONE ELSE BUT THEM. And I have nothing but scorn for the fact that so many of you on the Right seem unwilling to admit that this is the case, because it is ludicrous.

Adrienne, have all the scorn for whomever you want (it’s a free country) but some of us would prefer to wait until all of the facts can come out (hopefully by a non-partisan investigation) before we start chopping heads. This does not mean that we are “unwilling to admit” that there was wrongdoing. It just means that we believe that blowing our stack before we have all the info is what we believe is “ludicrous”.

some of us would prefer to wait until all of the facts can come out (hopefully by a non-partisan investigation) before we start chopping heads.

If that happens, it’ll be because of very loud public outrage like Adrienne’s. President Bush just appointed himself as chief investigator. Write your representatives and tell them you want a non-partisan investigation. Otherwise, we’ll just get another white wash.

AP, Already done… But not because I HATE anyone. I’m just want it to be fair. :)

President Bush just announced the name of the person he’s appointed to head the investigation.

It’s OJ Simpson.

My point is no matter how things happen or not happen they are wrong. If everyone responded very fast with this crisis it would have been wrong depending on which party thought of it. The analyzing would have been pointed toward jumping in with both feet before thinking things through. Believe me something would have been found wrong no matter how things went. A negative thinking society we have here. On a positive note we need to stand united and forget about parties and their bickering.

By the way why did OJ Simpson get freed anyway?

Vivian-
What have we to fail at? Your people control the Government. However you rationalize the reasons they control it, on thing remains certain: this Disaster response was badly coordinated. The agency involved used to be much better at this, and communication didn’t use to be a problem, even in catastrophic, multi state emergencies like the Mississippi floods.

Bush needs to own up to that part of it, say we made a mistake, and work the problem. Instead, he’s staging photo-ops and making largely symbolic appearances. Where’s the substance of leadership that will be necessary to get America through this dark time?

Mistakes are in the eye of the beholder. What may seem like a mistake to one individual may not seem like one to another individual.

We just need to stand united.

With all the facts yet to be proven, please do not fall for the Bush administration well tuned spin machine. To anyone seeking answers to the Katrina response try this simple word game?

Who was responsible for?..you fill in the blank question?

Blame: Being the cause or source of something: A freak storm was to blame for the power outage. Synonyms: blame, fault, guilt

Responsible: Required to render account; answerable: The cabinet is responsible to the parliament. Synonyms: responsible, answerable, liable, accountable, amenable

Ap

If Bush did not appoint himself as chief investigater that would have been a mistake too, right!

Adrienne,

And when the investigation is complete we will know where and, how much blame can be assigned.

For now, I firmly believe that the catalyst for making a disaster worse than it should have been is the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS AND STATE OF LOUISIANA POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND RELATED PUBLIC SERVANTS for not having an appropriate plan for evacuation of people in all states of physical condition.

Vivian-
The truth does not have a Democrat and Republican version. It has its own version of which each side has various approximations. In being united, we should fall on the side of being correct, rather than one side or the other becoming submissive.

Steve Smith-
Unless you can demonstrate that the movement of the elderly, the sick, and the handicapped could have been done effectively in the short window of warning NOLA had, that argument is one from ignorance. How can we know what went right, and what went wrong? Ask the people running the disaster effort…

…who are still running it, and therefore unavailable for questioning.

I’m beginning to think, and this may rightfully come across as a change of mind, that we are not at the point now where we can effectively reform the process on the whole, or effectively assign political responsibility in anything else than a generalized way.

So, I’m beginning to think that it would be more helpful to this effort if we could point out problems and potential problems and bring them to the attentions of the Watchblog audience.

Part of the genesis for my latest entry was the notion that it’s unfair to ask for deferred assessment of blame with Bush, then unleash hell on local officials of another party, especially while they toil away dealing with the emergency.

But on thinking that through, and listening to the opinion of somebody I do volunteer work with (unrelated to the hurricane) I’ve come to believe that it wouldn’t be of much use to agitate for big changes in personnel while things are still underway. We are stuck with many of these folks.

The best we can do now is bring praise to those who are doing well, and scorn to those whose actionsright now are incompetent or insufficient. While we can wait to determine how the initial response failed, we cannot wait to get our response right, as we act now.

Time is of the essence. The Federal government MUST get its act together, or otherwise this will remain a disorganized, ineffective relief effort. New Orleans MUST be restored as a major, thriving city, not neglected.

Both Republicans and Democrats must be willing to look beyond party, and see that there is a practical reality to this disaster relief effort that must be dealt with. If we fail at this, the disaster on the Gulf Coast will continue to weaken our country, and give our enemies cause to celebrate.

Stephen

Like I have indicated all along it’s not about the parties it is about the people. No party would be ideal. Which I think would enable us to see things more clearly and correctly.

And——I think the bickering of the parties will weaken our country as well.

Gut feeling tells me the response was as good as it could be considering the magnitude of the disaster. This big of a disaster in our own homeland is quite unusual. Live and learn!

vivian, you mean die and suffer, and learn, don’t you? The problem is, we have had 4 years to prepare, and people died and suffered because we weren’t as prepared as 9/11 taught us we should be, Communications Black outs being one of many examples. How many catastrophes must we suffer to get the plan down, the infrastructure in place, and efficient and timely response teams on the spot immediately after a disaster?

David

Nope did not mean that. But the plain obvious truth is we were not ready.

Prepare for what another 9/11 or a natural disaster?

And….who prepared for the 9/11 before the year 2000 with all the warnings. Ignored I think.

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And….who prepared for the 9/11 before the year 2000 with all the warnings. Ignored I think.
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Why not take it up to ignoring the warnings up until 9/11/2001? Does including Bush in this bother you? At least Clinton to covert shots at taking the guy out. I wonder if Bush could even spell Bin Laden before 9/11?

Oh yea - it’s that whole family business with the Bin Laden’s… hell, he probably has OBL’s old business card stashed away somewhere…

vivian, Clinton had warnings. But Bush’s intel. communities had a date, 9/11/2001, and that date came and went with even less defensive posture than usual. Clinton or whomever was president before a date was communicated could only generally prepare. But in the summer and fall of 2001, our intel communities had a date and that date was bucked upstairs. How far, the Whitehouse ain’t saying.

vivian meredith,
You must not live near the coast or in an earthquake zone. Acceptable Risk is a way of life in these parts just as wildfires are accepted by residents that live in Arizona and New Mexico. As we have witenessed many times for many years the Mandatory Evacuation Call from our Officails when any Hurricane even shows that it may hit the coast, the fact remains that almost all are unwarrented after the fact.

Do we need to have these evacuations call for? Yes, for our Officails to do anything less is stupid. However, to declare a Mandated Evacuation under Martail Law for each Hurricane would be meet by great resistance by every business leader in those communities. Galvin, Texas a few years ago comes to mind to prove that point.

No, your argument would be good if we are talking about Mississippi or Alabama, but New Orleans escaped the blount force of Katrina and therefore total evacuation of the city was not warrented. However, several hours later when the two levees gave way and clearly after our National Response Plan was called in to action under the direction of Homeland Security Director Mr. Chertoff NO’s levees broke causing half the city to flood. At that time, the proper protocol would/should of been for Mr. Chertoff to call for a full evacution of NO and used the power of the Federal Government to go down every street and pick these citizens up.

The Truth of the Matter in New Orleans is that two State of Emergencies existed within a 24 hour period. The coming Hurricane and a Levee Break. Now, can you show me in history where this has happened before and what our Government response was? Try 1993 and The Flood of The Mississippi River when several levees broke or was over ran for days. What was the response of President Clinton and FEMA during that time? Did he cry when Rush and others held his feet to the fire? What makes President Bush any different? Absolutly Nothing. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong regardless of which Idiot is in Charge.

Henry, an awful lot of them folks to be mandatorily evacutated will be yellow ribbon Republicans with AK 47’s and grenage lauchers exercising their 2nd amendment rights and challenging authorities saying you can remove my ass from this house when my guns are empty and I am dead.

Santorum hasn’t thought this one through…

Live up here where we get bad winter blizzards, tornados and flooding. Who knows when or where. And I might add an earthquake now and then. The fault line being the Mississippi river. Lets not measure disasters. A disaster is a disaster.

Hopefully if there is a possibility of a levee breaking because of a cat 4 or 5 hurricane and the existing levee only handles a 3 tops there will be a mandatory evacuation in the future. Better yet improve the levees. Today I notice there is a difference of opinion between the mayor and governor concerning mandatory evacuations. Did this occur before the hurricane?

David,
Like I said Galvin, Texas a few years back come to mind when our government ordered everyone off the island. Even in North Carolina, our Governor was smart and let those yellow ribbon Republicans with AK 47’s sign a piece of paper resolving the Local, State, and Fedarl Government off the hook in the event that this citizens found themselve in Harms Way.

vivian meredith,
Born and Raised in Ohio half my life, I remember The Blizzard which buried 13 States back in the Late 70’s (78’ I think). And I even laugh today when I think that the Federal Government called up Fort Cambell, Kentucky to assist and The Commander of the Base said sure as soon as we dig ourself out first.

Nature rules The World; therefore, it is the duty and responsibility of our Government and Leaders to accept that fact and be prepared to do whatever it takes to protect every citizen from their unalienable Right to be Ignorant. I just wish people would learn the difference between being Ignorant and Stupid. If the Water is raising Common Sense should tell people to seek higher ground not a higher place in the building.

David:
“The problem is, we have had 4 years to prepare, and people died and suffered because we weren’t as prepared as 9/11 taught us we should be, Communications Black outs being one of many examples. How many catastrophes must we suffer to get the plan down, the infrastructure in place, and efficient and timely response teams on the spot immediately after a disaster?”

EXACTLY. From my stand point, communications had to be first and foremost one of FEMA’s (and thus, state and locals as well) major problems (though there were clearly many other failures), and there is no bloody excuse whatsoever that can be made for that fact.

I’m not talking out of my ass here, I do happen to know what emergency response is supposed to look like, and what we saw this past week ain’t even close.
My Dad spent over twenty years as an epidemiological emergency response coordinator for the NJ State Health Dept. — and let me tell you, in the 1970’s and 80’s, that state had numerous emergencies, fires, chemical and industrial accidents.
I can’t tell you how many nights my family would be woken up by the telephone ringing and my Dad having to make about thirty frantic phone calls to various police and fire officals, the EPA (which he later worked for), and many other offices and agencies — often including FEMA, before speeding away in his van (which was like a chemistry lab and communications center on wheels), after which we sometimes wouldn’t see him again for days. He was the guy who was responsible for making sure that entire neighborhoods or whole sections of a city were immediately cleared all over the state because of potential or obviously deadly health crisises and emergencies due to toxic chemical leaks, spills or fires — or sometimes all three at once. After the immediate emergencies were dealt with (spills cleaned up, leaks plugged, fires put out, etc.), he and his crew had to take numerous air as well as soil samples and run many lab tests before anyone would be allowed to return to their homes.

Had my old man or any of the other groups of people he coordinated with during those emergencies reacted with the painfully obvious slowness and utter incompetency the entire nation just witnessed with FEMA, there’d have been heads rolling all over the place — and a hell of a lot of serious and perhaps permanently, ill people — or even entire city blocks filled with nothing but corpses.

FEMA FAILED BIG TIME — AND ON SO MANY LEVELS. And as a result, a whole lot of people suffered horribly and died needlessly.
Being my fathers daughter, I’m afraid I don’t need to wait for an in-depth investigation to know that with absolute certainty.

David,

There would have never been any actual 9/11 warnings if in fact there were any if all the previous warnings were taken seriously. Sit and do nothing was that administrations idea.

Henry,

I did live in Hawaii for 2 years and many a time evacuated to the Pali for a possible tital wave.

I think it was 1977 for the big blizzard. Interesting how one forgets the actual year. We have had some pretty good storms.

Ingnorant and stupid might also be a fair discription of all who put those officials in charge.

… and W. Bush & family were doing business with Bin Ladens & Dick was working in hand with Saddam. At least Clinton tried to blow Osama Bin Laden up - twice. The current Administration was trading business calls….

And, Clinton did hand off information that they felt extremely important to W - with regards to Bin Laden. Can you tell me exactly how many times Osama was mentioned in security meetings prior to 9/11?

Heck - both Saddam and Osama (along with the Taliban) were considered allies when Reagan was in the White House.

Just wait until not only Our Elected Officails find out just how Ignorant and Stupid “We the People” have been in taxing ourselve over the last 229 years, but watch those Nations like France scream when they recognize just how Unalienable Right The Founding Fathers of America were when they brought forth up on this New Land a Nation, concieved in Liberty and dedicated to the fact that All Humans are created Equal. For as consumers, All Citizens are equal regardless of Race, Color, or Creed.

There is no evidence the N.O. death toll is in the thousands. Just the rantings of the Mayor who knows the greater the catastrophe the greater the outpouring. The projected toll will steadily shrink as it did for 9/11.

Ms. Schwamp,
100 found in Warehouse; 30 found in Rest Home; Bodys tied to telephone poles because there are just to many to deal with and that is just in NO. No, the death toll over the effected area will dwarft that of 9/11. The $64 Million dollar question is who died in the hurricane and who died as a direct result of “Red Tape” which is still stopping us from reaching many communities?

I’ve watched this all unfold, and I wondered when the evacuation was first ordered and those who were given the Superdome as a location were told they had to provide their own food and water why the state of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans did not have a better plan or a system of supplying those residents they knew did not have the ability to stockpile food and water.

If we are going to be fair to both, no one expected the flooding after it appeared that Katrina had weakened and was not going to make a direct hit on New Orleans. Had the flooding not happened there would have not been as large of a need in New Orleans since the main hurricane damage was not there.

I’ve watched as Bush and FEMA have taken the majority of the finger pointing by the media, I’ve wondered, why there has been very little focus on who put those people in harms way? Who left them with no options? That would not be the federal government. If I was faced with the option of the Superdome or my home? I probably would have remained in my own home as well. It was the very poor handling and very limited support of New Orleans residents FIRST that caused this situation. It was the miscommunications and mess up in the response of the Federal Government that added to it later.

However, I think we do a real disservice to everyone if we do not stop and realize that it was the state and the city who had the initial responsi