Third Party & Independents: Archives

V.Edward Martin,

Those of us who have served have nothing but admiration and respect for your service to country and continued empathy for those who are presently doing so.

Your disdain for the fact that soldiers are dying in a war that you feel was and is unnecessary is an understandable position. It gets a bit out of context with the references to the President’s daughters not serving however. Them being “as shallow and witless as they come” is IMO a bit of a stretch.

Your opinion of the President and his administration as having limited grasp on reality, intelligence and vision and, your belief that each day the war is becoming more and more of a worsening situation referencing recent fatalities of man and equipment is a view that I am sure is shared by many.

My problem is in understanding your solution, which is :

“What we need now is bold insightful leadership to help get us out of this mess; what we have instead is Bush and his fumbling, arrogant band of neo-conservative idiots whose vision is marred by the dark clouds of stupidity that hang perpetually over their heads.”

My question is; having identified the perceived problem do you have examples of ;

[1] Who is this bold insightful leadership and where will we find them and, will they do what they say when given the oppoprtunity?

[2] What are the alternative plans to “get out of this mess”?

Should we ;
a) Cut our losses and withdraw
b) Intensify the fighting and risk more civilian casualties
c) Try to negotiate with the terrorists/insurgents
d) Change the culture of our enemy

Certainly there will be people proposing other alternatives yet, I wonder with all due respect, is your piece still another criticism, cry of frustration or, do you have a specific plan.

I find it perplexing that you can not make a post & submit your thoughts without insulting the president’s daughters. What purpose did your remarks serve except to show your hatred, not only for the president, but also for his family?

Yor insulting remarks disqualify you as a person to be taken seriously.

Perplexed

V. Ed:

I wonder why no one expected Chelsea Clinton to join the military, when her father sent our military all over the world. I wonder why she was not a combat pilot patrolling Iraq, or why she was not a member of Operation Desert Fox forces in Iraq? Did I forget her tenure as a member of the forces in Kosovo, or was she in Somalia in the Army Ranger program?

Dont downgrade the rest of your post by lowering your commentary to this kind of rationale. It doesnt wash, and it does downgrade the rest of your fine post (which I disagree with, but i do so with respect).

If you are going to complain about Jenna and Barbara, then you should also do so about Chelsea, who was in the same position. The ONLY difference is the scope of the military force, not whether we used it.

Excellent and very powerful article, Mr. Martin.
The Bush supporters in this blog are always claiming that the majority of our troops in the military have nothing but the greatest respect for America’s current leaders. But I often wonder what the majority of our troops really think about how these Neocon, Think-Tank, Armchair Warriors have waged this war, and how they’ve been so willing to sacrifice the lives and the limbs of their comrades in arms.

Joe,

If V. Ed doesn’t, I will.

If you think that there’s a shred of difference between the political elites on the left and those on the right, you’re crazy. Elites protect their own. The cliche’ “Rich man’s war, poor man’s fight” wasn’t coined yesterday.

Want a novel and productive recommendation? Congress should reinstitute two years of compulsory military service, but only for the military-aged family members of those who have been elected to federal office. Not only would this prevent discretionary wars in the future, but if we did have to go to war, we could be certain that our troops would get the material support they required. Finally, this would insure that the American public would get an entirely different (and IMO better) class of elected representatives than we endure currently.

Regarding the other points raised by V. Ed in his anguished and heartfelt post, my fingers are tired from typing my thoughts on this matter. Suffice it to say that the road to a permanent peace in the Middle East begins in Jerusalem, not Baghdad.

Until we turn this war into a fight against theocracy instead of between theocracies, we’ve lost the hearts and minds of disaffected Moslems throughout the world.

If you think that there’s a shred of difference between the political elites on the left and those on the right, you’re crazy. Elites protect their own.

How true. Too bad this serious issue is used by some as a political football.

Steve—

My mention of the President’s daughters in my opinion was and is in context when we remember that the President stated that all Americans should sacrifice to win this war. Where is the sacrifice from the President and HIS family?

As to your other points:

[1] Who is this bold insightful leadership and where will we find them and, will they do what they say when given the oppoprtunity?

We missed that boat in the last election cycle. I am well able to concede that the current Republican leadership is not to the task of “real” leadership, having ceded their brains to the collective a long time ago: “We are the Republicans, You will be assimilated, and thereafter read only from the book Republicianthought; We are one, resistance is futile.”

[2] What are the alternative plans to “get out of this mess”?

I addressed alternative plans in a post some time ago, wherein I stated that we need more troops on the ground, not less, and we need to call up the draft. It makes little sense to go into a town clear out the enemy, and then leave so he can just come back. No Bush you have to occupy the town, but we can’t because we do not have enough troops on the ground. And American fighting men and women continue to die.

Should we ;

a) Cut our losses and withdraw? No

b) Intensify the fighting and risk more civilian casualties? Yes, if it means putting an end to the struggle once and for all. We are either in this to win or we are not; half measure lead to defeat and needless death.

c) Try to negotiate with the terrorists/insurgents? No

d) Change the culture of our enemy? How would this be accomplished?

Perplexed—

I find it perplexing that all you took away from my post is that I somehow (without knowing them) hate the presidents daughters. It is that kind of narrow minded thinking that got us into Iraq in the first place.

Joe—

During the Clinton Administration the country was not at War, now we are, and the President has asked that all Americans do their part, even sacrifice in order to win this war. The Bush twin are adults, Americans, and well able to serve their nation in this just and noble cause. Just what are they and he children of other high ranking government officials doing to support their nation in this just and noble cause?

And Clinton didn’t start this unjust War against Iraq, Bush did and called for us all to serve our nation. Nothing, nothing would prove his commitment to this just and noble undertaking then the enlistment of his daughter in Armed Forces of their country. Let them serve shoulder-to-shoulder with their fellow Americans in the just and noble cause. Chelsea has little or nothing to do with this argument.

Adrienne—

Thanks, this issue has been eating at me for quite some time. I finally had time to put my thoughts on paper so to speak.

V.Edward Martin,

I appreciate your response to my questions. Since I don’t have a crystal ball there is no way I could know what you had posted alternative plans some time ago.

Nevertheless I agree with your answers to my question #2 and my points a) through d).

I think you are still way off base with your answer to my #1 and, IMO the President’s daughter issue is nothing more than a failed attempt to sensationalize your political views regarding the Presedential family.

V.E.M

Let me get this straight…Bush should force his daughters into the service and we should start a draft?
This is your solution? And this makes you brainier than this administration of “idiots”!?!
Look at where the real problems lie would ya? If Bush fought the type of war we all know he’s itching to, it would actually sound a lot like your itinerary(minus the draft)! The reason this isn’t happening is because every thing he wants to do is screamed and bawled about by Dems.!! Which pisses me off because he’s playing politics…just do what’s necessary!

V.Ed:

I’m in full agreement that Chelsea Clinton is not a part of this conversation. But only to the extent that you agree that neither are Barbara and Jenna Bush.

You made no mention of war in your original posting. You DID make mention of military action, and you made mention of sacrifice. Sacrifice is not only made during war time though. You talked about your disagreement of the causes etc.

The point is that even though we were not at “war” during Clinton’s tenure, we did take strong military action. And people died as a result, though not our soldiers. For that matter, soldiers die in training even in peacetime, so shouldnt we hold our leaders accountable at all times?

If you want President’s children to be in the military, I’m okay with that. But not if you only want Republican President’s children.

Joebagodonuts,

Maybe Chelsea wasn’t in Somalia because she was 15 years old at the time. And she was in college during the rest of Clinton’s administration.

A little bit different than being an adult, out of college, and unemployed as one of the twins is.

Also, I don’t recall any of the military engagements that you refer to under Clinton stretching our military to the point where troop levels were inadequate for the job and recruitment was low.

To your point, picking on the Bush twins was a bit of hyperbole, as you don’t get to choose your parents. But V. Ed’s point regarding sacrifice is a good one.

Perhaps the Republicans could sacrifice their tax cuts during war time to keep a more balanced budget, or at the very least not get rich off the effort through no bid contracts that ripoff the tax payer (ala Halliburton).

This discussion about Presidential daughters is quite inspiring as to the questions that could be asked.

Q. If Chelsea and one of the Bush twins (preferably the blonde) were standing side by side, which one would you like to see enlist in the Army (a good question for Aldous) and which one would you like to bring on a date?

A. Before making a hasty decision, stop the hysterical laughing.

Burt:

Thanks for pointing out Chelsea’s age at the time of the “Black Hawk Down” incident in Somalia. But did you realize that she was 18 years old and enrolled at Stanford when President Clinton sent armed forces into harms way in Iraq during Operation Desert Fox.

Again, Im not advocating that she should have gone, but the parallel is the same as with the Bush twins. If one family should sacrifice regarding military service, shouldn’t the other have the same obligation. My opinion is that neither has that obligation.

I agree with your point about sacrifice, and it should hit all patriotic Americans similarly. Not everyone serves, but we can all sacrifice. As to your idea of tax cuts, the fact that tax revenues are up sorta defeats your point—the budget is actually better of due to the increased revenues. We could argue whether they are directly a result of the tax cuts and all, but that’s for another day and thread.

Perhaps the question for patriotic Americans is to ask how they are sacrificing for our soldiers. I wonder how many truly are.

Steve, real obnoxious and sexist comment there.

Jbod:
“Perhaps the question for patriotic Americans is to ask how they are sacrificing for our soldiers. I wonder how many truly are.”

That’s a great question, Joe. Don’t you think that perhaps it’s the fault of the president for not asking us to collectively sacrifice anything? Because the thing is, I’m certain people would if only they were asked to do so. I’ve personally been part of two ongoing projects during the time that the soldiers have been in Iraq — the first has been to help raise money for body and vehicle armor, and the other has been to collect and send books to the soldiers. In both instances when I’ve asked people if they wanted to donate a few dollars, or give away a few of their old books to our troops, people have been not only delighted to contribute, but made happy knowing they’ve personally done something for the soldiers.
I think the real trouble we’re having in America is the sense that the people in our military are somehow entirely separate from the rest of us — even though that doesn’t make any sense at all. Maybe some of this has to do with the fact that we don’t see much actual footage of the fighting going on in this war on our TV screens? Or is it because, as we all know, this administration hasn’t wanted us to see the flag draped coffins of our fallen soldiers, or the many, many who have been wounded — I guess because they think it would upset us too much?

Steve—

My political views have nothing to do with my statements about Bush’s daughters and everything to do with being sick and tired of listening to platitudes.

Traci—

No, Bush should not “force his daughters into the service,” they should volunteer to serve their country in this great just and noble cause, their daddy has force upon the nation. And yes the draft is in order; we need more troops in Iraq, not less. We need to occupy and stabilize the country before we hand it over to the Iraqi security forces.

Bush is either Command-n-Chief or he isn’t! The Democrats have nothing to do with Bush’s war plan or lack of one. Your attempt to shift the blame for the quagmire in Iraq is baffling, pathetic, and completely without merit, or common sense.

Joe—

Its interesting that all you took away was my one line about the Bush twins. Have you no thoughts about our lack of respect for International Law when we claim to be a nation of Laws, or the fact that our men and women are dying at rapid pace?

You are wasting your time, V. Edward Martin. Republicans are too well trained to let facts get in the way. Notice the way they ignore your other salient points? Even now they still focus on what they percieve as your weakest argument. The fact that the Upper Strata of American Society is completely immune to Bush’s War is completely missed by Republicans. Hell, even the average Conservative isn’t stupid enough to “Spread Freedom” under Bush’s Command. Better Things to do than Serve, Differ 5 times and Join the Boy Scouts are the GOP Motto.

btw. Did you know FreeRepublic.com and RedState.org recently BANNED the McCain Supporters for complaining about the reduced Veteran’s Benefits?

In answer to the question, I would like both Chelsea and the Twins to enlist. However, since Bush is the one preaching about War and Patriotism, I am more interested in the Twins going to Iraq. Bill Clinton never used such rhetorical double-talk in his wars.

Steve Smith,

“…which one would you like to bring on a date”

?????

Chelsea Clinton and the Bush twins are in their early twenties and you’re (or claim to be) 62. I have no words…

Hey… All problems can be solved with a lot of Viagra.

Aldous,

he he…

Okay, I’m not terribly witty or even particularly clever otherwise I’d have a nifty little rejoinder for you. Sorry.

I gotta go sleep. G’night.

BTW, call me crazy, but I always thought Chelsea was cute as well as intelligent. In any case, I don’t see guys lining up to woo Bush’s daughters with offers of 40 goats and 20 cows.

Nikita,

I am truly 62 and physically unable to go on a date so my comment was just for fun.

Adrienne,

You know that as well. I did not introduce them into the discussion, I just responded to their existence.

AP,

If you consider Chelsea cute (which is your right) maybe we could double date. You invite Chelsea and I invite the Bush Girl.

Sorry Steve. My wife won’t let me out of the house carrying goats. She’s not stupid. :)

V. Ed:

Joe—Its interesting that all you took away was my one line about the Bush twins. Have you no thoughts about our lack of respect for International Law when we claim to be a nation of Laws, or the fact that our men and women are dying at rapid pace?

Perhaps you didn’t notice that I referred to your comments as a “fine post”, and pointed to one area that I thought should be excluded. You can assume what you want about what I didn’t say, but you would simply be assuming.

I also stated that I disagree with your base position on Iraq, and you can freely assume that means I don’t care about the loss of life in Iraq. Again, you’d be making your own assumption, and it would be wrong, but…you are free to do so.

I chose the one point simply because I don’t think it belonged as part of the issue. I chose to not engage in a long, tedious debate about Iraq, because its been done before and further debate wouldn’t change your opinion or mine. It would just be rehashing what has been talked about many other times.

Adrienne:

I’d like to see President Bush talk more about how we can sacrifice, in the way that you have sacrificed. To be honest, I don’t know that he hasn’t talked about it, but probably not enough.

On the other hand, when Bush talked about the American people sacrificing and helping via the America Corps (not sacrificing for military, but for underprivileged people etc.) much of what I heard was how the President should NOT be asking the people to do such things.

So again, it seems there is the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation for Bush.

But I’d heartily approve of the idea of sacrificing for the greater good being more a part of our society. There would be disagreement on what that means, but I can live with that. (For instance, we can want to help Africa, but increasing aid to Africa might not really help —perhaps increasing their economic development is the answer to truly helping them). Sacrifice and helping others can take different approaches and strategies, but is a great ideal.

Adrienne:

I often wonder what the majority of our troops really think about how these Neocon, Think-Tank, Armchair Warriors have waged this war, and how they’ve been so willing to sacrifice the lives and the limbs of their comrades in arms.

Well, the majority of our troops (some 3/4) voted to re-elect Bush in 2004. I guess that answers your question.

Excellent and very powerful article, Mr. Martin… Steve, real obnoxious and sexist comment there.

I always crack myself up with Adrienne’s worshiping of anything that DRR and VEM say. One of the reasons I read Watchblog for entertainment.

VEM, AP: if someone mixes in a little shit with the dessert, do you pick out the bad bits and enjoy the rest anyway? That’s what happens when you mix sensationalism in with an otherwise good editorial. This is a basic tenant of writing taught in introductory college writing classes. I, for one, won’t settle for intellectual dribble. Learn from Stephen Daugherty, Sebastian and Chops.

BTW, call me crazy, but I always thought Chelsea was cute as well as intelligent. In any case, I don’t see guys lining up to woo Bush’s daughters with offers of 40 goats and 20 cows.

Yeah, you are crazy AP. Unless you’re looking at pictures of Chelsea after she had plastic surgery… but even so, the Bush girls are much better looking, even without plastic surgery. Anyway girls can’t be drafted, and IMO that’s a good thing. Who’s going to take care of my friends and brothers if they come back from war with missing limbs?

I seem to remember a lot of Democrats complaining - perhaps even on Watchblog - when Bush chose to 1) increase the number of troops in Iraq around the time of Fallujah and Najaf battles, and 2) withdraw American troops from around the world so that resources could be redirected towards home defense and efforts in Iraq. There’s a double standard going on here.

V. Edward Marin said:
�I find it perplexing that all you took away from my post is that I somehow (without knowing them) hate the presidents daughters. It is that kind of narrow minded thinking that got us into Iraq in the first place.�

My answer to you is that you started out & finished a post with heart-felt beliefs, of which I mostly disagree, but you could not resist showing your contempt for the president by insulting his daughters. By statements such as, �The Bush twins are about as shallow and witless as they come.� What proof do you offer for this statement? Are you a trained physiciatrist? By making a statement like this, you proved yourself unable to hold intelligent conversation because you are motivated by hatred.

Your answer to Steve was, �My mention of the President�s daughters in my opinion was and is in context when we remember that the President stated that all Americans should sacrifice to win this war. Where is the sacrifice from the President and HIS family?�

May I remind you that during WWII, millions of American�s supported the war effort, even though only a fraction of the populace was on the front lines. You told us of your military service, as I am also a vet & you know how important it is, for morale, to see celebrates show up & entertain the troops. I consider this work as supporting the war effort. I guess what I am saying is, you don�t have to be on the front lines to support the troops.

You also answered to the question, �� What are the alternative plans to “get out of this mess”?

�I addressed alternative plans in a post some time ago, wherein I stated that we need more troops on the ground, not less, and we need to call up the draft. It makes little sense to go into a town clear out the enemy, and then leave so he can just come back. No Bush you have to occupy the town, but we can�t because we do not have enough troops on the ground. And American fighting men and women continue to die.�

Let me say in response to this:
First: what inside information do you have, what top-secret information are you privy to, that would allow you to know how many troops we need on the ground.

Second: before the last presidential election, a NY congressman by the name of Rangel entertained the thought of reinstituting the draft. The medial & liberals took this ball & ran with it & before long all the news was that the president was going to institute the draft. It was all started by a liberal democrat & ended up as talking points against the re-election of president Bush. Can you imagine what the liberal press & democrats would do if the draft was started again? Your idea is stupid & I imagine you would be the loudest at condemning the president if it were to happen.

To all:

Is there a difference between the blue & green column? I do not see any difference. Let me quote an article in NewsMax.com, dated Wednesday, Aug. 3, 2005 5:08 p.m. EDT Democratic Pollster: We Don’t Stand for Anything Democratic Party pollster Stan Greenberg said Wednesday that “one of the biggest doubts about Democrats is that they don’t stand for anything.” During a conference call with reporters, Greenberg said Democrats deal with “the same doubts they had about John Kerry” - the party’s 2004 presidential nominee. The issue arose as Greenberg discussed what Democrats need to do to stop Republican gains among Hispanic voters.
Bush got about 40 percent of the Hispanic vote, according to various estimates, a slight improvement from the 35 percent he got in 2000. Greenberg, a former pollster for President Clinton, said Hispanic voters’ stand on the issues indicate Democrats can solidify their Hispanic support if they “rediscover their values and beliefs.”
Democrats’ lack of clarity was a contributing factor for the gains made by Republicans among Hispanics in 2004, Greenberg said, adding “that stands out even more for voters generally and for white Catholics.”
Greenberg’s comment come as Democratic leaders, including party Chairman Howard Dean, say they are trying to do a better job of telling voters who they are.
“Not that we need to change what we believe in, but need to do a better job of communicating what we believe in,” said Karen Finney, a Democratic Party spokeswoman.
� 2005 The Associated Press

The articles & answers from the left & middle prove liberal’s inability to come up with ideas. It is for this reason you will continue to loose elections.

Perplexed

Perplexed:

The way I see it since Republicans got us into Iraq, Republicans should get us out. While it may be true that Democrats may have not offered any solutions, the idiotic speeches coming from BushCo is certainly making the problem worse.

My Favorite BushCo Crappolas:
1. “Bring ‘em on” by Bush
2. “A few deadenders” by Rumsfeld
3. “In its last throes” by Cheney
4. “We fight them there so we don’t fight them here” by Bush
5. “The more violent it gets, the more we are winning” by Bush

So tell me… Has Bush said ANYTHING that makes you think he knows what he’s doing?

Ahh Gandhi—

You can always be counted on for an insult or two, thank you for stopping by, and not adding anything of substance to the debate.

Perplexed—

Nothing I stated about Bush twins was insulting, unless you now find the truth insulting. How smart is it to underage drink and get caught, in a public forum, not once, or twice, but three times! Nothing I say is motivated by hatred (I don’t even know the girls); legitimate criticism is encouraged in a mature democracy. Or haven’t you heard?
I do not look upon the Bush twins as celebrities, just citizens whose father—the President—has stated that we all need to sacrifice. Lead by example.

As for the needed troops: its called common sense, and proper and well established military doctrine. My idea for the draft makes sound military sense because we need boots on the ground, and lot of them. And I would be the first to applaud if Bush finally stepped up to the plate, showed some leadership skills, and actually suggested it be re-instated.

VEM:

Thank you for stopping by, and not adding anything of substance to the debate.

No added substance??? What about my Chelsea picture? I bet you wouldn’t have found that on your own :)

Oh, and did you read my last paragraph? I merely corrected all the liberal comments that were obviously wrong. Someone has to set the record straight, and who better to do it than me. And if there’s no substance to my remarks, than perhaps that implies something about the substance of your rebuttals to my points?

Gandhi—-

LOL, actually I am quite handy with a mouse and broadband connection. I think the new Chelsea looks quite fetching.

Who better then you indeed to fill the balloon of Republican half-truths with hot clammy air design to choke? And your lack of cogent response has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the lack of substance in your remarks.

V. Edward Martin,

My kind of girls those Bush girls. They also go to clubs whenever they get a chance (at least the blonde girl does). Girls just like to have fun.

Gandhi,

I will pray every night that you are not appointed as a judge in a beauty contest.

Aldous,

Again with the Republican war? I thought you agreed to give that up once you got a name for enlistment and, you got that name.

Gandhi:
“I always crack myself up”

Might want to check that impulse in public — people will often think the worst, you know…

“Adrienne’s worshiping of anything that DRR and VEM say.”

Aww! Are you feeling a little jealous? Well, maybe one day someone will come along and have something nice to say about some of your writings, too.

OK, folks, (last 3 commentors) let’s please take the dialogue back to the topic of the article. —-WatchBlog Managing Editor

That’s the spirit V.

Nothing suceeds like defeat, after all.

The left condemns the operation before it begins, condemns it the entire time it is ongoing… and will no doubt continue to condemn it after it is over. Thank god we didn’t have you guys during WWII.

I wonder why most politican’s don’t have their kid joining the miltary?
Why cause they know that Bush’s only goal in life is “OIL”
The twins would never serve in the miltary just like their dad they rather hide and let dady pay their way thru life.
Bush is losing the public’s respect and for good reason.
Very few support this low life.
Bush only cares abut Bush ok and his OIL!
And the twins well they have shown us how immature they can be.

The left condemns the operation before it begins, condemns it the entire time it is ongoing… and will no doubt continue to condemn it after it is over.

LOL! It was wrong then, wrong now, and it’s not going to get better with age.

Sonya said….

“I wonder why most politican’s don’t have their kid joining the miltary?
Why cause they know that Bush’s only goal in life is “OIL”
The twins would never serve in the miltary just like their dad they rather hide and let dady pay their way thru life.
Bush is losing the public’s respect and for good reason.
Very few support this low life.
Bush only cares abut Bush ok and his OIL!
And the twins well they have shown us how immature they can be.”

Sonya, your first sentance is “I wonder why MOST POLITICIANS don’t have their kids joining the military”.

Then you launch into an attack on Bush and his twins as if they were not part of the MOST POLITICIANS catagory.

Hi All:
“In My Humble Opinion”

Well, not having any children of my own and being retired from the Army I guess I am qualified to comment on this subject. The reason Most politicians kids don’t serve is because Most politicians will do everything they can to get their kids educated so they do not need to serve. Can’t fault them for that. Lotta good military experience did for “Dubya”, he couldn’t lead a troop of boy scouts out of the woods without asking for directions twice. Of course this is only my humble opinion.

We are losing the military Vets from the political ranks Every Year, more and more. Not that being a military veteran makes you any more qualfied to run this country than any other. It just more fuel to throw across the political dividing line. Clinton proved that theory wrong in 92 & 96. And genuine WAR Vets Gore & Kerry lost, however closely to an AWOL National Guardsman. Just goes to show you the Amarican Public can not make its mind.

Just Passing Gas

As Always
Wayne