Third Party & Independents: Archives

David,

The sad thing is, they’re headlines, not news.
People don’t seem to care.
Our government is no longer for the people.We have relinquished our oversight power over the government. The wealthy and powerful realized that their time is now. Through legislation they have manipulated the system to their benefit.
The United States legal system guarentees that the wealthy and expensively represented avoid accountability.
Corruption in Congress and the Senate are now legal due to terms like “Lobbying” and “Ear Marked.”
Do most Americans really care?
They’d rather sit back and focus only on their lives or allow themselves to be part of the RED vs. BLUE divide.
The downfall of the United States will not come from a bomb. It will come from apathy.

David,

It is an interesting piece. It comes as no surprise that the (R) seems to be a common thread in your examples.

I guess it will take someone a while to dredge up all the (D) and (L) knells of doom headlines.

Imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:
29 have been accused of spousal abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
19 have been accused of writing bad checks
117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year.
That’s the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line, while they do little (if anything) but grow their ranks bigger and bigger and more unaccountable, and the people (generally speaking) allow it.

But, even if they get indicted, they can get a pardon

David:

That is a fine list of Republicans who have fallen in some way. As Steve says, there is an equally long list of Democrats who have fallen in similar ways.

Your article displays prominently what I consider to be one of the most problematic issues we face—-POLARIZATION.

You focused on the Republicans who have done wrong, while excluding others. Some will now focus on the others while excluding Republicans.

As Americans, we should focus on how to hold our politicians in line, whether they be Republican, Democrat or whatever.

To post such an article focusing only on one group’s failings while ignoring the other side simply polarizes the debate further. And instead of looking to solutions, the debate swirls down into a toilet bowl of “Your side did it first” or “your side is worse than my side” or the penultimate kindergarten debate of “Well, YOUR guys did it so that makes it okay for MY guys to do it”.

David, perhaps your intent wasnt to focus on Republicans solely. If not, I’m lost as to what you did want to focus on. If so, then your article only serves to bring the general discussion to a lower level.

jbod, NO! I did not focus on Republicans. I pulled ALL stories from headlines over the last month about bad government or politicians. Assembled them with links, and then went back and looked in the stories for, or did election searches to, find out if they were Republican, Democrat or some other.

There was nothing selective about it save for the crime or corruption content of the headline.

Jbod, The focus of this exercise was nothing more than to point out that voters need to do some homework like this, or demand full vetting of the nominees for public office before voting for them.

Voting and forgetting about government until the next election is undermining our nation of law, and respect for it, by those who have sworn to uphold it.

I tip my hat to d.a.n for assembling a more depressing list crimes politicians are responsible for. And we should of course, include the Whitehouse exposing a CIA operative for political vengeance. A crime by any standard.

d.a.n,
Some more for your list:

1 has been accused of drowning someone.
1 is a former KKK member.

You’re right about the pardons. I’d like to get rid of the presidential pardon altogether.

David,
You did’t include a link for the story “Porn Star Carey Attends GOP Fundraiser.” What was that story about?

TheTraveller, I don’t know. The headline appeared and was linked to Yahoo’s news page. Yahoo’s links are short-lived and the story content was no longer available.

Thanks for asking though, it prompted me to do a search and I found an ABC news link for the same story. Apparently she is running for Lt. Governor of California too (though I suspect the whole thing is a publicity stunt). Anyway, Read about Carey, here.

joebagodonuts wrote: … I consider to be one of the most problematic issues we face—-POLARIZATION.

Yes, that is a tough problem to shake. Partisanship (by design) distracts us from the real similarities of both parties. They speak (a lot too) of differences, but their actions say different. Look at what they do, not what they say.

Also, each party takes turns from time to time.
Does anything get resolved?
Why do our pressing problems still go ignored ?
Politicians still won’t risk re-election by tackling tough problems).

Perhaps party doesn’t really matter?
Perhaps the system is broken (or smashed)?
Perhaps what we’re doing ain’t workin’ and that’s why less than 50% of eligible voters bother to vote ?
Perhaps we need a new approach?
Is trying to decide who to elect, by trying to figure out who’s honest, and who isn’t, working?
What incentives are required to make politicians tackle tough issues, rather than ignore them for fear of risking re-election?
Perhaps, as time goes on, any system of government is destined to grow increasingly corrupt as the politicians learn all the rules and how to break them?

David,
Thanks for the link. I’m not sure what her simply being there has to do with political corruption, though.
Unless you’re trying to make the point that having a political fundraiser is a form of corruption in and of itself, in which case I’m inclined to agree with you.

The Traveller, prostitutes sell their sexual bodies for money. Carey is a prostitute. Prostitution is illegal, except in Nevada. Hence if fundraisers are conducted by inviting known criminals to raise money, the seeds of corruption are already sown.

Bernie ebbers gets 30-life in worldcom fraud case.

Tom Delay must have had a good month.

Tom G, that depends. Apparently his 2006 race challenger is raising as much money as he is.

David:

In the link and headline you gave us, it cites Carey as being a porn star, featuring in adult films, which last I checked are not illegal. Are you sure she actually is a “prostitute”? There is a difference between the two.

Jarin, you raise an interesting legal question in addition to definitional.

X rated material is protected by the 1st Amendment. But, selling one’s body for sexual gratification is illegal in 49 states. Is there any doubt that Carey provides sexual gratification for money? I dunno, ask her screen partner or consumers of her media products.

David:

I think the legal difference is that the money received is not directly for the sexual act. In the absence of cameras, no one would be getting any money for the sex. She is not being paid by any of the sexual partners she has in the videos she makes. What she is paid for is the filming of those acts, and the subsequent distribution of those videos, rather than for the sex itself.

David, you wrote,

“Hence if fundraisers are conducted by inviting known criminals to raise money, the seeds of corruption are already sown.”

Wasn’t that exactly Hillarys defence of the fundraiser for senate? A criminal doctored the books, but we didn’t know?

I think what many politicians are doing in Washington D.C. could be called prostitution.

Government is for sale.
There’s sex acts takin’ place in the oval office.
True, there was no camera.

But, then it all depends on what your definition of “is” is ?

Jarin, sounds like hair splitting to me. But, then, a good deal of lawmaking is just that, isn’t it. It is still selling sex for money, regardless of how the hairs are split legally.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Nevada has the right idea. Legalize it, district it out of view of children and adults who don’t want to see it, regulate it, tax it, and oversee it so that it does not become a public health issue.

The issue for me, is for all of the family values BS dribbling from Republican’s mouths, Carey at their fund raiser raises not just money but serious questions about hypocrisy run amok.

Beagle, I don’t know about Hillary’s defense, but, one need look no further than Chicago for a long history of Democratic corruption.

Who believes the Republicans are more corrupt than Democrats ? Or, vice-versa ?

Obviously the sole purpose of a headline is to capture people’s attention. The importance of certain news is secondary to how badly people want to hear about it (the Jackson trial for instance).

David,

My only hope is that everyone that reads/writes here can gain your wisdom.

The ability to say; Good point, but…,
Just seems to hard for some. Isn’t that what political debate is built upon?

Right or left leaning views on the issues are all good( thats why its debate rather than argueing).
The only people that ever win a debate are those that understand what it was about, and can gleen some knowledge from the points from both sides.

Damn! I love watchblog!

Porn Star Carey Attends GOP Fundraiser Posted by David R. Remer at July 13, 2005 02:46 AM

Gee, David I thought that would be open to anyone, I would hope so anyway, what do you think? Because I don’t give a damn and I am sure that others could care less as well. I am sure that we wouldn’t find any skeletons in her closets, whaddya think? I for one would love to see this combined ticket for 2008 Hillary and Carey. They both understand the need to keep the Press, and Every one else out of your bedroom. Like the current theme for Vegas “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”. I may just vote for Mary Carey, Even if she is of the other Party. Get a life then live it.

Just Passing Gas,
As Always,
Wayne

Wayne, your kidding right? Have you not read the stories written about how Republican functions are closed to all who cannot be verified as Republican, or some Press?

I have a life, thank you. A comfortable one that permits me the time to debate and editorialize with folks like yourself. Appreciate your concern though.
:-)

TomG,
“Tom Delay must have had a good month.”

The utterly crooked Delay was having an unusually good month… until today:
Texas Judge Won’t Drop Charges Against DeLay Fundraiser

Beagle said: ” Damn! I love watchblog!”

You and me both, brother, you and me both! I often feel like a Lakota Sioux warrior counting intellectual coup, but so subtly, the counted don’t realize they have been tallied.

:)

Good news for America, Adrienne. And after DeLay, we can go after the hundreds of other Republican and Democratic politicians who barter the people’s interests away for personal gain and gratification.

d.a.n, at a given moment in time, one side may be more corrupt than the other, but, over time, they come out pretty even, human fallibility being a universal non-partisan trait.

David:
“Good news for America, Adrienne.”

Yes David, so we’d hope. But then you read this line in that article I linked to, and must begin wondering again:

“Some observers in Austin believe GOP lawyers have pressed for a decision on constitutionality so they can appeal before Colyandro and Ellis stand trial. Their appeal will probably land at the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals. The court’s nine judges are Republicans, and some believe the GOP’s claim could get a friendlier reception there. A win could gut the criminal cases before they go to trial.”

d.a.n, at a given moment in time, one side may be more corrupt than the other, but, over time, they come out pretty even, human fallibility being a universal non-partisan trait.

Good to hear that. From the partisan rhetoric, it’s hard to tell about some, and obvious about others, but unfortunate either way.

At any rate, regardless of whether the Left wing or Right Wing wins, they will, as usual, just fly around in circles.

Adrienne, I am not familiar with the particular justices on that Texas court. But, it may not be as ominous sounding as it appears. Texas was, until less than 2 decades ago, a Democratic state. Texans take their government corruption very seriously and Texas voters have demonstrated on a number of occasions a punishing rejection of corrupt politicians.

Also, majority support for DeLay in his own district has dissipated. This will not be lost on judges in Texas who are mostly, if not all elected.

d.a.n wrote: Who believes the Republicans are more corrupt than Democrats ? Or, vice-versa ?

David R. Remer wrote: d.a.n, at a given moment in time, one side may be more corrupt than the other, but, over time, they come out pretty even, human fallibility being a universal non-partisan trait.

The fact is, both parties are corrupt as hell (although, there may be a few good politicians, if there is such a thing), but the most corrupt party at any given instant in time, is usually the party that currently has the majority, and thinks they have free rein to do as they please (which they do, until the next election, where the other side gets their turn).

Then, perhaps parties serve no useful purpose?
Perhaps, we should, instead, hold all politicians accountable, as one entity, regardless of party?
Perhaps, because we don’t hold politicians accountable as one entity, regardless of party, is actually empowering them to continue to take turns using and abusing the people (filling their own pockets, selling influence, graft, corruption, pork-barrel, bribes, illegal and secret donations, etc.)?
Perhaps, the system needs some major rule changes, since the politicians have now learned all the rules, and how to break them?
Perhaps, lookin’ for honest people to vote into office is too difficult? Almost impossible?
Perhaps, what we’ve been doin’ ain’t workin’ ?

Perhaps we ought to vote only for a non-incumbent/non-main-party candidate ?
: )

Beagle wrote: … I often feel like a Lakota Sioux warrior counting intellectual coup, but so subtly, the counted don’t realize they have been tallied. :)

Gee, too bad everyone else isn’t that clever!

d.a.n, it’s just a clever way of saying one is not very convincing :)

That’s putting a nice spin on it.

“Perhaps we ought to vote only for a non-incumbent/non-main-party candidate ?
: ) “

This was an argument made frequently by the GOP in the 1994 Congressional campaign, when Dems briefly controlled congress and the presidency. I think there’s something to be said for keeping a balance of power between the two parties - when there’s rough equity then the likelihood and cost of being caught & prosecuted is highest.

A balance of power is important.
However, too much power resides with government.

However unlikely, if the people kept voting out the incumbents, it may balance the power between the government and the people.

Transparency International publishes lists and articles about corruption in the countries of the world. The U.S. last year was number 17 out of 145. We share the place with Belgium and Ireland. Some (like Finland, Denmark etc) were better. Most were worse. Many were much worse. It looks like there are no honest officials at all in places like Haiti, Nigeria or Bangladesh.

I know that American should be the best, but it is a big country and there is no indication that we are getting worse. It is just that our adversarial culture makes headlines. For example, your headline about Arnold is a political fight, not a moral problem.

All of us should simply resolve not to lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do and work to make our country better, more like Finland I suppose.

Jack, that is a great point worth remembering. We have the freest press in the world, and that does have an effect on our appearance relative to many other nations.

The US Free Press is as free as their Corporate Owners let them be free. When was the last time the Press investigated a Major Corporation? They never brake anything anymore. Investigative, my ass.

Aldous,
You see it the way it really is.
There is a conflict of interest, and corporations pay media corporations for advertising.
Thus, media companies withhold the truth or any negative news regarding those companies.

Take DELL computer for instance. This is an excellent example. I’ve got a DELL notebook Inspiron model that’s had 21 part-failures/part-replacements in 24 months (under warranty). It’s a piece of junk. My experience is not uncommon. In fact, in 2004 HP had about the same market share as DELL, but DELL had 12 times more complaints complaints than HP:

Company Gripes Pct MarketShare
————- ——— ——- —————-
Dell 633 58% 17.9%
Gateway 159 15% ?
eMachine 89 8% ?
Apple 77 7% 3.6%
HP 53 5% 15.8%
Sony 37 3% ?
Toshiba 22 2% ?
Compaq 15 1% ?
IBM 2 ?% 5.9%
————- ——— ——- —————-

But, does PC Magazine, PC World, Computer Shopper, Maximum PC, or any other PC magazine reveal this ? Nope. I only recall one magazine that ever hinted at it: Forbes

Even though HP has almost the same market share,
DELL has 12 times more complaints than HP .
__________________________________________
Because of what you (Aldous) are saying, that doesn’t surprise me. The media shows you only what they want you to see.

I’ve owned about a dozen computers over the past 20 years (IBM, HPs, SONYs, MICRON, Texas Instruments, Acer, Adam, Binary, Toshiba,
Gateway, custom built PCs, etc.) and all of those total (all put together), did not have the total number of problems that my single DELL Inspiron notebook model had in 24 months (i.e. 21 part failures/replacements in a 24 month period).

But, rather than simply say the media hides the truth, and DELL sucks, I’ll just stick to the facts …

David:

Good news for America, Adrienne. And after DeLay, we can go after the hundreds of other Republican and Democratic politicians who barter the people’s interests away for personal gain and gratification.

Great Idea, Class Action Suit: The People v The House, Senate, and everyone else in Washington, DC. What do you guys think?

Question: Who will run the country then? As all the politicians will be sitting in Jail doing 10-20 for Fraud, Waste and Abuse?

JPG,

As Always,
Wayne

Class action suit?
That’s an interesting idea.
Pit the lawyers and politicians against each other.
That might be worth buying tickets to watch.

But, if any politicians get convicted, they’ll all get pardon. We’ve got to put and end to that pardon stuff.

As for running the country…a bunch of trained monkeys could do a better job than the federal government is doing now (which is mostly, nothing that provides any net benefit to society). Really, I think my neighbor, Bob could do a good job. My brother Joe could do a good job. Lots of people can do a good job. As long as they’re not bought and paid for by big money from the relatively few with money and power (those that currently control the reins of power).

Dan, you wrote;

“Beagle wrote: … I often feel like a Lakota Sioux warrior counting intellectual coup, but so subtly, the counted don’t realize they have been tallied. :)
Gee, too bad everyone else isn’t that clever!”

I agree 100% that the person that REALLY DID post that is a very clever fellow indeed!

I stand corrected.
I was wondering why David responded to that.
Well, unfortunately, not all of us are lucky enough to be such mental giants.

Aldous, Good point about our “free” press. You can’t get published as a journalist if you can’t spin your story this, that and the other way. That’s why I never considered non-fiction writing.

Beagle, Good point about debate and Watchblog is great! However, either we’re working off totally different understandings about counting coup or you worded that poorly. Counting coup (as per my understanding via my own heritage) doesn’t really involve much counting or tallying. It’s a non-fatal form of revenge against other tribes/groups. It’s applicable only if you feel you’re taking revenge out on those you are disagreeing with, not just tallying who they are and what they said. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning. But it sounded like you meant your doing more counting…and less coup?

Perhaps I’m just taking you too literally?

Stephanie,

The “counting coup” post/statement didn’t have anything to do with me, other than David writing and posting that as a reply to me.

I had only stated to him personally that I respected his wisdom and understanding of debate, even if we seldom agree on every issue. I took his reply as agreeing to my love of watchblog as a forum for debate.

I also respect the Lakota Sioux, however, being as I’m Huron, that quote likely wouldn’t come from me.

I hope that clears things up for everyone besides David and myself,who seemed to understand who wrote what and why.

For clarification, the Lakota Sioux were made up of seven bands. I am descended of one of those bands, the Blackfeet. This is not to be confused with Blackfoot which is a completely different band.

Beagle, sorry I got confused. Your last comment to d.a.n. threw me off.

As per the headlines, does it really matter which party they’re from or which party got more negative light shed on them? The fact that our elected representatives are run amok is evident. These people represent us to the rest of the political world. It’s no wonder America gets so little respect. All media spin and party rhetoric aside, is there anyone who disagrees this is a serious problem?

Steve,

I thank you for your post about the many bands of every tribe, I could even define where the exact term “blackfeet” came from.

I was hoping that others would back up and re-read the posts that started this confusion over what was posted by whom.

Many times someone that is confused, replys to a post without thinking about who really posted whatever it was, others reply to a post that was by a confused person, I cant really explain something I didn’t freaking write.

I attemped to explain that I thought I understood what the person replying to me origionally meant.
If people want to go back through the posts to find where the error started, please do.

For me to go futher into it would likely break watchblog rules.

: )

Laughed my ass off at your last comment, Beagle. That was priceless.! Great way to end a thread, my friend.

Beagle,

My short comment about the Lakota Sioux was intended to simply be informative. I was not making a criticism. I wanted to point out subtly that not every band of the Lakota Sioux necessarily shared the same ideals.

Steve,

There was nothing wrong with your or Stephanie’s post.

I was only trying to clear up the confusion before we went futher into discussing American Native traditions.( American comes first for me).

Though, a different thread about American Native’s relations with America would be an interesting topic.

And Beagle, putting American first is a great way to show what’s really important when it comes to citizenship.

There was a crooked man,
and he walked a crooked mile,
He found a crooked six penny,
beside a crooked stile.
He bought a crooked cat,
which caught a crooked mouse,
and they all lived together
in a little crooked house.