Third Party & Independents: Archives

David,
Good article and I see your point. From a selfish standpoint, I want Roy Moore to run under the Constitutional Party. You have to keep in mind, my guess is that Jeb Bush is going to be the guy to run for 2008. He is apparently being groomed due to the fact that he has been with Bush under the tsunami campaign rather than picking someone like Rick Santorum. Surely, if Jeb desires; he will have that blessing due to the favors he has done for the Bush campaign in 2000 and 2004.
If they pick Jeb, he will surely lose. He is a Moderate Republican who is pro-choice. There goes the 30 million cheap votes from the Evangelical Christians; in which, abortion and gay marriage are their only concerns. I forget, killing the Muslims too. Even if they do pick someone other than Jeb, Roy Moore will still be a major contribution; indirectly, to the Democratic Party. Moore will be known as the guy who “stood up against persecution to have his Ten Commandments up and thus is a God-Fearing man.” That is the notion. The Constitutional Party, in my opinion, is a racist political party. The uninformed public, particularly, the Religious Right will jump all over his nuts. That is the deal. He is going to steal those Republican votes that they live off of; being the Evangelical Christians and the Religious Right. Even the Red States might become some-what competitive. Let’s assume that the Democrats pick someone other than Hillary, perhaps a strong Conservative such as Mark Warner or Mike Easley or a good, solid Liberal such as Joe Biden. I hate to point this out but hey, I live in the South and know what’s going on. We have plenty of racists and the Evangelical Christians living there. Call me crazy, but I am not even going out of blind faith to say that Roy Moore could get 10% of those votes in states that Democrats could actually win. Missouri, Arkansas, Ohio, Florida, ect. Those are just states that Moore could get a lot of votes in. Florida, by the way, has enough Evangelical Christians and racists to join the band wagon. Enough, surely, to take 7% of the votes atleast. Imagine Moore landing 20% in SC. Roy Moore will surely get Eastern NC. Joe Biden might actually have a chance, especially the Democrats, only if Hillary doesn’t run.
The possibilites are endless and I will be a political snake. I have a bunch of my Democrat friends calling Moore’s office and telling him that we are hardcore Christians who want him to run.
The idea behind it to make it clear. Let Moore get the racists and a good amount of Evangelical Christians; thus stealing the Republican votes. I am not saying that racists are Republicans because that is ignorant; but they surely will vote Republican before they vote for Democrat.Stealing those votes, like George Wallace did in 68, will give the Democrats that boost that we need to get a state or two; including Ohio. I just hope that the racists and Evangelical Christians remember Roy Moore by 2008.
So David, I would like too but no; I can’t donate for Nade, although I like him. I have other ideas in mind.

Dave,
Sorry for double posting but this is the essential part of having Moore. He might just win Alabama as he is Alabama’s favorite son. Imagine that, 9 useless points going to a third party which is -9 for the Republicans. It would be a dream come true for the Democratic Party.

“I have a bunch of my Democrat friends calling Moore’s office and telling him that we are hardcore Christians who want him to run.”

So basically you guys are admitted liars? I guess the ends justify the means, right? You should go for some coffee from Karl Rove, maybe you can pick up a couple more tricks. I cant believe you would brag about this.

Misha,
I can’t believe you are even getting mad about this. We are lying but who is bragging about it? I speak from a strategic standpoint. If you had the foresight to do the same thing for your party to win, then I would actually be impressed. This is about winning. Sure the Libretarian Party rarely wins but you know a campaign is about winning. This is a Democracy and the ends do justify the means. An evil, in my opinion, is lurking in the US and we all know who that is. The Bu$h Administration and the Neocons in charge. We have had the Iraq War, an extreme form of Capitalism looming, schemes to cut social programs and Social Security, a bunch of lies, deceit, and a wide array of other avenues coming in. I am sorry but the ends do justify the means as having a Democrat will make this country just a tad bit better than having another Neocon puppet. The Democrats, liberal bloggers, including yourself know the Bush flaws and it is bringing this country to the ground. Why should I care? Because, this is the country that I live in. Dirty politics and campaigning is inevitable in politics and it will be in 2008. Let’s beat the Neocons at there own game. Surely, lying to get this strategy to move forward is not worse than Bush lying to the Congress and the public at large. This is my case. I am still not sure why this offends you, but perhaps it is because of the whole abortion debate and my criticism of your arguments. It is fine with me. Whatever. As far as it goes, in order to defeat evil you have to become evil. That is the trick. If we try to become there friends or play fair, 2004 will repeat (as I am not saying that Kerry didn’t do dirty politics.) History repeating itself will be our team’s loss and I am determined to make sure this doesn’t happen in 2008. To the party, let’s keep on lying and doing whatever dirty trick we must do. It is okay because it is worth its projected effect. What is wrong with another sin? Like I said before, this is about winning. It is time to play dirty.

I hate double posting but I forgot an essential criticism to your post.

“So basically you guys are admitted liars? I guess the ends justify the means, right? You should go for some coffee from Karl Rove, maybe you can pick up a couple more tricks. I cant believe you would brag about this.”

Like I said before, who is bragging about it? I notice with you that a lot of times when someone posts a comment, you throw out a wild assumption and I proved that in your other article. You should seriously reconsider before you assume such things. I am not bragging anything as I am speaking from a strategic standpoint in order to win 2008. Hopefully the Democrats can gain a few seats in the Senate and Congress as well for 2006 and 2008.

my guess is that Jeb Bush is going to be the guy to run for 2008.

Yikes! Does anyone think Americans will support a hereditary democracy? If that’s what America thinks deomcracy is about, maybe we did better with Iraq’s government than I thought. The king’s term limit is up, long live the king!

Leon, nice turn-around on the Republican’s support for Nader’s campaign. ;)

And David, good luck with your ‘Save the Nader’ crusade. Now that the campaign season is over, it’ll be good to hear the term “Republicrats” again.

Sorry, David, but strongly think that Nader should just maintain a Foundation and be a vocal/thinking counterpoint to the parties.

[ Really do no like Nader’s affinity for and deafness to what trial lawyers really do to this economy and society in their King’s court system they created for their own benefit. (no, do not want to get into a dissertation as to negatives and why trial attorneys are like terrorists against the society and middle-class; no way should get more than 10% of people’s ills, injuries, assets, etc. Think adults citizens should be able to handle things on own and in Bus. Eng. with attorney only as a coach/consultant type.) Nader is a millionaire off cases he’s taken. Yes, I know the full score. Could have joined family attorneys limo driven.

Misha, my gut reaction to Leon’s strategy is the same as yours. However, I have to admit, the Leon has hit upon something. The Democrats and Republicans have left a trail of deceipt, dirty tricks and even lawbreaking in order to win elections. Given their size, what chance does a third party have if they don’t get very creative in their approach to voters?

Perhaps, some amount of ends justifies the means is the only hope third parties have. I mean the Republicrats have shown they will rig the entire system against third parties and have. If the Republicrats are willing to deny 10’s of millions of voters the right to share power, it seems to me playing by their rules is self defeating, and making one’s own rules, (as the Republicrats have) may be the only alternative left.

I don’t think lying to the public in order to win is ever justified. But, lying to the rigged bureaucrats controlling the rigged system seems to me to not be out of bounds.

AP, Republicrats is precisely why Democrats lost. Democrats failure to reach out to that 40 plus percent of eligible voters and independents cost you guys election after election after election for over a decade now. And you still don’t get it. It is almost laughable.

Thanks David. I am proud of myself with your hard earned compliment. I am also proud that I don’t have a guilty conscience when lying to scum like Roy Moore and helping the public at large. For that, I will donate to the Nader Campaign. I don’t have a whole lot of money being just a “soon-to-be” college kid but compare it to the story of the lady giving all of her two coins to Jesus. This one’s on you my man.

Alex, you are grossly ignoring one glaring fact regarding attorneys. On average, tort attorneys earn only slightly more than corporate or tax attorneys. The idea that tort attorneys are getting so fat and rich as to outweigh their benefit to the consumer public which would not have a voice in the judicial system or access to justice were it not for the tort attorneys taking little guy cases on a contingency basis, is simply illogical.

Your average tort attorney loses cases and bears the entire cost of those losses while giving the little guy their day in court. And it is the big award wins which come on a less frequent basis that allows them to stay in the business of representing the little guy who almost always cannot afford to go to court regardless of how aggregiously harmed were it not for the contingency based tort attorneys.

You simply must address the fact that tort attorneys are not making significantly more in annual income than all the other kinds of attorneys. Unless you address that fact, your argument against them does hold up. Their benefit to society is huge. For if the little guy gets screwed often enough and in enough numbers without an avenue of redress in the courts, insurrection and revolution will loom on the horizon. A little history goes a long way in this regard, S. American, Colonialists against King George, China, Africa, take your pick. Modern world history certainly has a huge number of examples of what happens when the little people believe there is no justice for them.

Thanks Leon for the kind words. The inherent danger of winning by means of dirty tricks, is that if one ever does acquire power, giving up the dirty tricks becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible. However, in this case, I think it is safe to say, third parties have no chance of ascending to the control of the Oval Office and Congress hence, this concern is not applicable.

The role of third parties is, as you astutely pointed out, to move the dominant parties toward greater public representation through intimidation and threat of taking away votes at the polls. The tactic you described could potentially have that effect. Therefore, I don’t see it as out of bounds given these circumstances.

Blacks in this country taught us a very valuable lesson if we are still willing to embrace it. That is, minorities have a way of growing in strength and power if their voice is disregarded long enough.

The very best thing that could happen is for all or most of the third parties to unite on common ground and work together at the national level. Locally they have the potential of winning so cooperation there would not work. But, at the national level, there is ample room and common ground for mutual cooperation.

LEON #1: “Like I said before, who is bragging about it? I notice with you that a lot of times when someone posts a comment, you throw out a wild assumption and I proved that in your other article. You should seriously reconsider before you assume such things.”

LEON #2: ” am also proud that I don’t have a guilty conscience when lying to scum like Roy Moore and helping the public at large.”

I am not surprized, Leon. As per our previuos discussion, I talked about the importance of principles, you talked about the importance of “pragmatism”, and this post is a result of abandoning principles for getting to ends. If anyone in the libertarian party stooped to just depths to win an election, I would vote against them just based on that. If we cant even agree that lying is wrong, i dont think we have much to agree on.

As for David- from our many conversations I am actually very surprized you would say this (i say that out of respect). I highly doubt you would teach your daughter that if someone wrongs her, it is alright to do something wrong to them back. Its funny, the simplest lesson we would all teach our children are often lost in persuit of so-called “higher goals.”

Misha, I wasn’t aware I left an impression of being an altruist. I sent my daughter to karate school, and will soon be teaching her how to handle firearms. If someone is about to kill you, I teach her she is justified to kill them first if there are no other options. She knows killing is wrong, but, I have also taught her that while all killing is wrong, humans are not yet evolved to that point where they do not have to kill to defend themselves. And until they do, killing in self defense is an act that should cause remorse, but not guilt if there was no other alternative.

The same teaching applies to politics. Until we have a just system, it is fair and justified to fight corruption which harms citizens with civil disobedience and breaking the law provided one is prepared to accept the consequences of the act. In fact, that is what I teach her is real bravery. To break the law when the law is unjust is heroic.

She has not had the benefit of the civil rights era as I have, but, she will in a few years witness for herself unjust laws. She already recognizes the injustice of killing 10’s of thousands of Iraqis when they did nothing to harm us.

Lying is sometimes justified. When you are a parent, you will recognize that. Like when your 7 year old daughter asks what a blowjob is. I told her it was when one persons blows another person off by ignoring what they have to say.

Look Bush lied about the cost of the Medicare Rx bill. The Democrats lied about having responsibly exercised their oversight requirement of intelligence BEFORE voting to let Bush invade Iraq. The Republicrats lie every election season when they talk about representing the people while at the same time they make and uphold laws that deny third parties an equal voice in the election cycle. As far as I am concerned, lying to tear down their corruption of the election system in America is justified. I commend Leon’s friend’s creativity.

Sigh, color me disappointed.

Misha,

This is politics. I wish the world wasn’t like this, but I have to also say I’m behind Leon 100%. Virtue will not get you ahead in any circle of humanity today. It’s sad, but true.

Roy Moore 2008!

Misha:

“I am not surprized, Leon. As per our previuos discussion, I talked about the importance of principles, you talked about the importance of “pragmatism”, and this post is a result of abandoning principles for getting to ends.”

Those who are trying to tear down the Wall of Separation between Church and State are the ones who are attempting to abandon America’s founding Principles.
And despite our long and troubled history to the contrary, the words “All Men Are Created Equal” were there from the beginning, as well (thank our lucky Enlightenment Era stars!). American’s in possession of a conscience know that racism is Wrong, and that we must strive to eliminate it if those words are to ever have any true meaning. Therefore, what Leon and his friends are doing can only be commended for being non-violent, just, and indeed, patriotic.

“If anyone in the libertarian party stooped to just depths to win an election, I would vote against them just based on that. If we cant even agree that lying is wrong, i dont think we have much to agree on.”

Using a zealots own zealotry, or a bigots own bigotry, against them is always fair game, in my opinion - most especially when it’s being done for the greater good. And I wouldn’t call it lying - although perhaps it may be viewed as a form of trickery.
But lets get real here, shall we? Who has tricked the religious zealots of this country more than the Neocon Republican’s?
And why should any thinking person care whether the overwrought fanatics and the dimwitted bigots of this country can be so easily lead that countering one trick with another is as effortless as herding a flock of sheep?

Surely, there must be some Democrats that do not beleive ends justify the means? That believe that lying, cheating and stealing are not simply “ok” just because you decide the other side is wrong? I think these responses, calling those who lie, “patriots” are shameful. I know there are some reasonable democrats around here- Stephen, where are you? Unlike many rightwinger, I do not believe

David—Said above I wasn’t going to qwrite a Dissertation on how attorneys have screwed up this country and economy! Adult American citizens should be able to handle their business and in Bus. English. Going in circles about tort attorneys, corp. attorneys, etc. is going in a circle pro attorneys & a King’s Court system. (judges just more of same ilk; then all these control freaks manages to screw up Arbitration also)

“beleive ends justify the means?”
“calling those who lie, “patriots” are shameful.”

Give me a break.
You know, this reminds me of a conversation I had once with an Englishman who claimed in a highflown and pompous manner that the men who’d fought for America’s freedom in our Revolution had been nothing but murderous savages because they’d thrown away the book on the rules of engagement.
He thought it was simply disgraceful that they’d resorted to using what they had learned from the Indians (guerilla tactics), rather than keep to strict European-style formations when fighting. He kept this up until I pointed out to him that it was only way we would have ever won our freedom, since the majority of those men were underclothed (often in the dead of winter), grossly underfed because of a lack of funds, and far out numbered by the fully equipped soldiers of George’s Army, as well as by the well paid and fed Hessian mercenaries they’d also hired.

When one compares the dirty, lying tactics used by Rove, the narrowminded and controlling propaganda of the Christian Right, and the enormous media machine both have at their complete disposal, it is utterly ridiculous of you to claim that a little manipulation which merely takes advantage of the fanaticism of many Evangelical’s and the bigotry of Racist’s is somehow unspeakably horrible and underhanded.
It’s laughable, really.

“I know there are some reasonable democrats around here- Stephen, where are you?”

So. I’m not reasonable, I guess.

“Unlike many rightwinger, I do not believe”

???

Misha,
I have been reading your rants for a bit and I am just going to lay it down the way it should be. Morality or principle, whatever you want to call it is relative. You know that. In my eyes, I don’t find it wrong. For you to proclaim that I don’t have common sense as a Democrat is laughable knowing that I win over enough neocon conservatives as a Moderate. There you go assuming as you always do.
I just find it funny that you are so hell bent on calling me a liar, which I am, over a stupid little thing like getting Moore to run. Put it this way in justification, atleast Moore will go down in the history books as a guy who ran for President. I seriously think that you hate Democrats so much for their stance on abortion that you really just want to throw out some pointless, incoherant argument.
I believe you are a law student or a lawyer. How can you jump on my back for telling a slight fib that is cutting him a favor either way? You know damn well, just like I do, that lawyers are going to lie all the time if they want to make a decent living. Hey, have it your way. If you want to stand on your own stubborn principle, you are going to be a pretty poor lawyer.
You can blast me all you want but the fact remains. Unless you want to start playing some hardball with the professionals, you will never win over anyone with power on your abortion or Libertarian stance. It is simple, the Libertarians 99% of the time lose because they don’t play dirty although their platforms are unrealistic and simply insane. You better start playing dirty if you want to be a successful lawyer because you can’t have it anyother way. It is the way the system is built and it will remain that way.
Politics is not so much whether an issue is right or wrong. That is a generic, Christian, black and white viewpoint of how politics work. Politics is more about who gets what out of a policy, be it the politicians or the citizens who choose to vote for whom. I sense that you are highly threatened by my position on this but I don’t paint a rosy picture of the world. I try to see things as the world works and not how it should be due to the unrealistic nature of it all. It is your call but keep on living by that stubborn principle and you won’t get anywhere. Sure you will have that self-respect, but in the end; nobody cares about that.
In closing, please lay off my position because I know that you know better than that. You are making a big deal out of nothing.

Ad- the reason I cut off my post is I just stopped myself in mid-stream. When in debate or in political contest I assume, for the purpose of my own sanity, that my opponents are honorable, reasonable people who happen to disagree with my opinions, and hopefully I can convince them otherwise. When a thread like this comes along, it completely shakes my belief in that- what the rest of the sentence was goign to be was “Unlike many rightwinger, I do not believe, I do not believe those on the left have bad motives, or bad intentions- just that they happen to be wrong on many issues. Sadly, if one of them showed me this thread, i am not sure how I would defend my position except to say that this is just a minority of those on the other side, and that most do not in fact believe that they can do dishonorable things just to get at ends they want.” Thats really all I have to say about this, lets get back to talk substance, if we can.

When all the rest is laid to waste, all we have is our integrity.

Misha — I posted this separately, just before I moved over to this thread:

“Remember: Dems are just good people with bad ideas, but Reps are just bad people. ;-)”

Peace.

Apologies for the triple-post.

David — I value the concept of a third party, but I find Mr. Nader reprehensible. The book that got his career rolling, was somewhere between exaggeration and fabrication. This is based on my discussions with owners of the infamous Corvair.

Mike, I respect the fact that Nader turns a large number of non-Republicrats off. My appeal was primarily made to those who believe in his lifelong work of defending consumer’s rights, whether they be consumers of Ford’s Pinto, or, of the Republicrat rigged political system which is antithetical to real democracy.

David,
I’ve given a small contribution to the Reform Party just because I would like to see them remain on the ballot, rather than disappear.

“the Republicrat rigged political system which is antithetical to real democracy.”

Let’s face it, the Electoral College is going to have to go before any third party will ever have a chance of winning the White House.

Misha,

I’ve read a good many of your comments in the last couple of days, and I just want to say thanks. Your presence on these blogs does them credit.

Regarding lying in order to split the Republican power base, my simple question is this: what is most important? I’m guessing from Leon’s posts that what is most important to him is to defeat the Republicans in the next election. Or at least, that ranks higher on his priority list than perfectly ethical conduct at all times.

I applaud Misha’s steadfast defence of principle (while acknowledging I haven’t been listing long enough to know how consistent he is on that point). I disagree with Leon’s choice of importance. Yes, it does seem that if you’re going to win at politics, you have to get down and dirty. But is it really essential to win at politics?

Certainly, it is desirable to win at politics. But it is not essential; look at the Democratic party. They did not need to win the election of 2004; they’re already gearing up to fight tooth and nail to win the elections of 2006 and 2008.

Whether one wins or one loses, one dies in the end. And when one dies, what matters then? I suppose that depends on what comes after.

Agreealso, Electoral College must go.

Misha, you have my support. If the ends justified the means, then the U.S. would be justified in its use of torture to extract information from detainees. I believe that some of you here who are liberal can respect those of us who are willing to cross party lines to champion some standard of objective truth or morality. Is that respect lost as soon as we defend our own party on a separate issue?

Daniel:
“I’m guessing from Leon’s posts that what is most important to him is to defeat the Republicans in the next election. Or at least, that ranks higher on his priority list than perfectly ethical conduct at all times.”

“Truly, to tell lies is not honorable;
but when the truth entails tremendous ruin,
To speak dishonorably is pardonable.”
- Sophocles

“Whether one wins or one loses, one dies in the end. And when one dies, what matters then? I suppose that depends on what comes after.”

What comes after is our children - who must live with the results of our mistakes, or meet an early death because of our failures.
For example, stirring up a hornets nest in the middle east until perpetual war is assured far into the future. Or leaving this insane deficit for them to pay. Or, as is the case with this administration, of writing a blank check for corporate polluters which leaves our kids with a poisonous environment simply because it was considered okay to make a quick buck and live like there’s no tomorrow.

A third party may be a necessary development of the early twenty-first century, but it can’t come from nowhere and truly change anything.

Any third party wanting to challenge the Democrats and republican must start at teh grassroots and spread like the grassroots. American politics will not be changed from the top down.

Political dirty tricks, whether the name on your sign is Kerry, Bush, Badnarik, or Nader are a sign of intellectual desperation. If you are such a poor advocate for your cause that you must resort to frat-style pranks, fraud, deception, and spin, then you have already lost. For Democrats, it is a shame for us to copy the behavior we think is indicative of the other side’s tactics. For Republicans, it is a confirmation of their critics charges, and a beam in their eye when they ask to take the mote from somebody else’s eye.

And most Germane to this discussion, it is a black mark against any small party that wishes to expand to greater things. If third party’s play the role of spoiler, play the role of pawn for another political party, especially one with antithetical beliefs to theirs, it lends credence to the belief that they are extremists seeking power for its own sake, a barrier above and beyond that already in place.

Any party that wishes to be powerful and remain that way, must, in the end, renounce the cause of power, and take up the cause of the people. Our beliefs should shape our solutions, our goals, but they should not be held higher than the will and the best interests of the American people. Nor should the two be confused in our egotism. Our interests WILL differ from somebody’s, and sometimes we WILL be wrong. We must realize that any American party must be a shade of red, white, and blue, and not a color unto itself. No party can hold itself superior to the people, or privileged over all others.

Stephen said: “Any party that wishes to be powerful and remain that way, must, in the end, renounce the cause of power, and take up the cause of the people.”

A lesson hard learned by many Democrats of late. Now if the rest of Democrats would learn the lesson, call for a complete overhaul of the FEC and Commission for Presidential Debates, such that there is a level playing field for major third parties, I suspect many who have joined those third parties might just be inclined to return to the Democratic Party. But, that is a horse pill just too big for the Power mongers in the Democratic Party to swallow.

David-
I did not remove the green party or Naderites from the equation, and with good reason.

Governance is not about sending people political messages, especially by counter productive campaigning against candidates on the left. People see that, and they see petty concerns of power, not necessarily your real concerns for their well-being.

Stephen- thank you for confirming my faith that there are people on both side of the spectrum that think principles are more important that brute results.

Stephen, The Democratic Party’s governance established the working class partisan politics against the middle, upper middle class, and above who live in this country. It was the Democratic Party that aided and abetted the Right’s rhetoric that the Democrats only represent the poor and homeless and tax everyone else. Also, it was the their lack of governance which failed their oversight capacity as far as intel proferred by the Bush about Iraq, and voted with Bush to invade before doing their homework.

You are absolutely right. Governance is not about sending people political messages, it is about doing the very real and hard work of watching out for the people’s interests. A capacity the Democrats failed in, resulting in their having to hit the campaign trail with political messages designed to divide the electorate. The Republicans have succesfully managed to position themselves as the 1st best alternative to Democrat’s rule based on moral and familiy values. Despite all that Republicans do wrong in their governance, so far, they are still viewed by the general voting public as the best alternative to Democrat’s making the decisions.

There are about 45% of eligible voters out there who choose not to vote. The Democrats would do well to being addressing the issues for those who don’t vote in addition to the issues of their base.

Among the issues of those who don’t vote, is that the Republicrats are corrupt, the evidence is found in every election cycle by tieing themselves to the big money, and by the rigging of exclusionary regulations of the FEC and CPres.Debates, and unwillingness to make every vote count, and count correctly.

We can and will likely put people on Mars. Yet, the Republicrats refuse such an infinitely more simple task such as putting election day on a holiday or weekend day, and insuring, for federal elections, that one standard for voting be implemented and place criminal consequences upon those who fail to meet those standards for accountability and validity for each ballot cast.

Stephen:
“Political dirty tricks, whether the name on your sign is Kerry, Bush, Badnarik, or Nader are a sign of intellectual desperation.”

‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.”
Thomas Paine

I dont consider what Leon and his friends are doing as a “dirty” trick. As I said before, using the narrowminded and controlling desires of zealots and the hatred of bigots against them simply doesn’t prick my conscience.
Indeed, I am far more bothered by the idea that people would stand passively by and do nothing to counteract evil f*ckers like Rove - who are meticulously studying the motivations of both types, and making a bloody SCIENCE out of inciting more hatred and intolerance in those people’s hearts simply to win an election.

“For Democrats, it is a shame for us to copy the behavior we think is indicative of the other side’s tactics.”

I agree with what David said in an earlier post:
“I don’t think lying to the public in order to win is ever justified. But, lying to the rigged bureaucrats controlling the rigged system seems to me to not be out of bounds.”

“For Republicans, it is a confirmation of their critics charges, and a beam in their eye when they ask to take the mote from somebody else’s eye.”

In such a situation as the current political climate, those of us on the Left need to stop wringing our hands so damn much and start viewing the Right’s incursions upon American freedom and equality as though we were playing a game of Chess - with life or death consequences. After all, that is exactly what our opponents are doing to meet their completely unscrupulous goals.