Third Party & Independents Archives

January 20, 2005

Inaugural Marked by Emigration

As the President is sworn in for another 4 years, one news source, The Independent, marks the occasion with an article about Americans leaving America. 7.2 million Americans have already chosen to live overseas, and more are to follow. It is a poignant counterpoint to Washington’s festivities with more fire power encircling the President than can be found in much of Iraq. The President’s route was wall to wall uniforms, looking more like Mushaaraf’s police state, than the United States.

If this emigration movement grows in a big way, the day may come when a President like GW Bush can walk down Pennsylvania Ave. without even secret service to be found. That will be due to all dissenting voices and opposition to such a president having migrated to Canada or Mexico and beyond. What kind of America would that be? Surely, many Bush supporters would regard such a futuristic scenario as heaven on earth.

But, it would also create a group think, America: an America not dissimilar from China or Cuba today. An America where the people speak with one voice, one patriotic voice coming from one person, the President. Where would be the need for a Constitution or Bill of Rights where all the people think with one voice? What need would there be for Congress, filibusters, and Jeffersonian parliamentary rules. It does indeed sound like the political heaven enunciated by Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler, and Ho Chih Minh. One people, one voice, one policy for all.

May God Bless America by withholding such dreams from fulfillment.

Posted by David R. Remer at January 20, 2005 04:18 PM
Comments
Comment #41673

With all due respect for someone who chooses to flee this despicable state of affairs we find ourselves in, with our government hijacked by the worst criminals in American political history, it puzzles me that they think that they could actually move anywhere else and escape the tentacles of the Bush Family Evil Empire.

And with mounting evidence of all sorts of well, what should we call them, “detainment centers” or perhaps more appropriately, “concentration camps”, ready to contain thousands, all over this country, are the would-be emigrants feeling a sense of urgency, fearing that the Bush administration will someday (soon?) literally close our borders to emigration?

Would Bush prefer everyone who disagrees wit his policies just up and leave, or does he have some nefarious plans for us?

I do agree, it might be good karma to leave, because when this nation reaps the karma it has sown, look out. A tsunami is nothing compared to what this country will eventually get—-and we do deserve it.

The question comes down to this: does one leave, flee, abandon his country to the wolves? Or does he stay, make a stand, and fight, if necessary, for what we have, or had? Alas, most of Bush’s critics, especially those of the Democratic persuasion are namby-pamby wimp pacifists who would rather roll over and get screwed in the butt than lift a finger to fight.

Posted by: Escobar at January 20, 2005 06:58 PM
Comment #41679

I heard many Enlisted Men are fleeing to Canada to avoid going to Iraq a third time. It is sad that 51,000,000 Bush Voters refuse to support their President by volunteering. Surely they must feel the Moral Obligation to spread Freedom?

Posted by: Aldous at January 20, 2005 07:45 PM
Comment #41711

Escobar, Adam Smith wrote about the cornerstone of democracy being self-interest. Is it in one’s self interest to fight and die for one’s nation’s ideals when a neighboring nation is already living those ideals and will welcome one to immigrate?

So many millions have died in the name of American ideals, and American herself is no more perfect today than she was 300 years ago. Different, better in some important ways, and worse in some fundamental ways. I guess one could argue they died to keep democracy alive in America. But, America looks less and less like a democracy with each election cycle. In reality, America is more an aristocracy than a democracy, more an oligarchy than a democracy, and more a nation bent on war than one bent on peace in the world.

At what point does America cease to be worth dying for? Clearly the majority of the nation decided American government policy was not worth dying for at the end of the Viet Nam War. American ideals set out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights I personally find worth fighting and dying for. But, what of a government that views those documents as impediments to their will and designs? Documents do not a nation make. Its government and relationship with its people is what makes a national identity worthy of praise or criticism.

If our founding documents can be resurrected to their role as focus and guide in government function and decision making, then, I believe our nation is worth fighting and dying for. But, if that is not in the cards, then, I fail to see what there is to fight and die for. Self interest seems to dictate, that if one doesn’t believe greatness for liberty and freedom is in America’s future, if economic malaise, poverty, borderline anarchy, masses of citizens imprisoned, and American fighting American are the future, it is time to leave, not stay, fight, and sacrifice for what was and will not be again.

Posted by: David R. Remer at January 21, 2005 08:27 AM
Comment #41717


If there were no controls on borders, many millions of people would move to the U.S.

Canada is a pleasant country. There are ample reasons to want to live in Canada. You are not really getting very far from the U.S. The U.S. military still will defend you and you still will be integrated into the North American economic system. If you move to western Canada, you won’t even have to learn French. It may be a little harder to find a job or open a business, but not so much that you probably would notice.

Any Americans who want to move to Canada for political reasons should do so post-haste. I am not sure what skills they will bring to Canada or take away from the U.S., but I expect we can spare them.

I have worked on citizenship cases and can offer a little advice. During the Vietnam War, many radicals left the U.S. vowing never to return. Most were smart enough not to renounce their U.S. citizenship, so many of them quietly slunk back over the years without people noticing. A few real firebrands took the special effort of renouncing their U.S citizenship. Now they have to go through court cases to get it back. They usually succeed, but it is time consuming and embarrassing. My advice to the prospective Canadians is just to pretend you don’t want to be Americans anymore. It will be much easier for you when your little game is over.

There is a big difference between being an American resident overseas and a non-citizen. By maintaining your citizenship, you are admitting that you really don’t reject the U.S.; you just choose not to live here, but want to continue to enjoy your country’s protection. There is a little hypocrisy involved in this, but I don’t suppose that is anything new to a couple of American guys flying the Canadian flag in a comfortable Seattle suburb.

Posted by: Jack at January 21, 2005 09:54 AM
Comment #41720

Good points, Mr. Remer. Sounds like you have given some thought to whether or not it is even worth staying in our home country. And, it sounds like you have given some serious consideration to leaving.

Let’s see, I agree with you, that it just may not be worth remaining a US resident/citizen. Too much of our fundamental ideological infrastructure has been shredded as of late. I have very little confidence in the American people’s ability, dumbed down as they are with TV, football, cheap beer, shiny cars, and all that, to muster up the concern, attention, or energy to turn things around. Indeed, it seems they want to be ruled by a tyrannical government, be controlled by their “moral” religious leaders, and submit to whatever atrocities are necessary to keep their stock portfolios solvent.

I guess my main issue is that so many of the people I talk with or correspond with who speak of a desire to “leave it”, as in “Love it or leave it”, sound somewhat naive in that they assume life in another country (Canada, Mexico, etc.) will be idylic, and as I said before “free from the tentacles of the Bush administration”. Or succeeding administrations, which could be worse!

It is not an easy decision, I would imagine, to leave one’s country. The older one gets, (I am 56) many decisions that we made as a young person on the spur of the moment over a beer require a lot more thought and deliberation now. We learn there are consequences to our decisions, such as the citizens and soldiers who fled during the Vietnam war, as Jack has pointed out.

Jack also said:
“If there were no controls on borders, many millions of people would move to the U.S.”

Correct. And if it were truly easier to leave, many would leave the U.S., faster than they are now. Problem is, many people, citizens and non-citizens alike, are simply not aware of the trauma ahead for this country. National or global abstractions are not important to them. Of sole concern is the price of “Bud Light” and what’s the next game on TeeVee.

Posted by: Escobar at January 21, 2005 12:19 PM
Comment #41758

Escobar, I agree with you, that it was almost not worth remaining a US resident/citizen. So much of our fundamental ideological infrastructure had been shredded during the 90’s. I had very little confidence in the American people’s ability, dumbed down as they were, lead by a former Governor who headed the state with the lowest ranking education system, with governmental sexcapades, misplaced files, shiny El Camino’s, illegally obtained FBI Files and not knowing the meaning of the word “is”, to muster up the concern, attention, or energy to turn things around. Indeed, it seems they wanted to be ruled by an amoral scandal ridden government, ignore their religious leaders, and submit to whatever atrocities were necessary to keep their Bubba’s in power.
Thank God that I didn’t bolt. I knew deep inside that the American electorate could not be that ambivalent. I had hope that given a chance to choose a true leader they would rise to the occasion. They have done so and this country is once again on the right track heading for much brighter days. Liberals continue to loose seats in both the House and Senate on a federal and state level.
Life is good.

Posted by: Kirk at January 22, 2005 03:15 AM
Comment #41765

Kirk, there is one big difference. The scandals of the Clinton Admin. came out in his second term, the public was not aware when they reelected him. This President’s scandals came out in his first term, and the people still reelected him, for lack of a better choice. When money dictates power, skill and capablility are removed from the equation.

That is what diminishes America’s future and makes other countries appear more appealing. 90 some percent of Canadians would not want to give up their health care system in exchange for America’s. Canadians in the majority view their french/english dual language as a strength, not a weakness. Canadians in large part embrace diversity of opinion, religion, lifestyle, and political perspective. That is no longer true in America and that’s a fact born out in headlines year after year.

There are a number of reasons folks can find for not wanting to live in Canada, for sure. No country is going represent nirvana and exist without its politically divisive issues. But, the trend in the past was for Canadians to emigrate to the U.S., that appears to be reversing. As a simple fact, it says something about how Americans fear what is happening in America.

The U.S. was the wealthiest nation on earth. Now it is, or soon will be, the largest debtor nation on earth. During Bush’s terms, our national debt will have gone from 5 trillion to 10 trillion or more and yes, tax payers will have to carry that burden, limit their options, give their tax dollars away to foreign investors in the form of interest and receive absolutely nothing back from their government in return for it.

The U.S. has lost its committment to teachers, and public schools and that is a loss in committment to America’s future. The U.S. has become so drunk on being rich, it is spending on all priorities as if they were equal, space, freedom abroad, disaster relief abroad, social programs, corporate welfare, military growth and expansion, museums, statues, parking lots, and a host of other pork spending with no return to the American public. The U.S. government is becoming ever more secretive and is now spying on its own citizens. America is eroding its due process laws and Constitutional protections of individuals from government intrusiveness and power. Taken in all, America’s future is beginning to look like a variation of “Animal Farm” or “1984” or “Brave New World”. And the saddest thing of all, is that most Americans do not even know what I am referring to in those books of warning to America’s future.

It is easy for me to see why American’s are seriously considering residence elsewhere. As for citizenship renunciation, well, Americans ironically remain a hopeful lot, and no doubt, even as they depart our shores, they do so with the hope that one day, America will regain her sanity and embrace the Constitution and Bill of Rights, live and let live common sense, and fiscal discipline. Hope, Clinton said, is America’s greatest strength. Perhaps, we’ll see. But, for some, keeping hope alive is becoming ever more difficult these days.

Posted by: David R. Remer at January 22, 2005 08:20 AM
Comment #41766

Jack and Escobar, I have essentially responded to your last comments in my reply to Kirk. Thanks, for participating in this discussion.

Posted by: David R. Remer at January 22, 2005 08:28 AM
Comment #41773

Just FYI, if anyone is seriously considering a move: New Zealand and Australia are looking for highly-skilled, dissatisfied Americans.

I don’t know much about New Zealand, except that they have a nice international airport, but so far Australia is the only place that I’ve ever felt as comfortable (or more so) as in the US.

Posted by: American Pundit at January 22, 2005 09:32 AM
Comment #41774

Unless I could make a living in the outback, Australia holds no appeal to me. They are 40 years behind the U.S. in race relations, and racial violence is on the upswing there. Not to mention all those deadly venomous critters looking for a fine American meal. Finally, they overwhelmingly support Bush, so what would be the point, eh?

Posted by: David R. Remer at January 22, 2005 09:54 AM
Comment #41825
Finally, they overwhelmingly support Bush, so what would be the point, eh?

I was there just before their election. They all hate Bush. That’s why Latham was able to come from nowhere to challenge Howard. Howard’s big advantage was his stewardship of a very, very good economy.

Can’t argue with the venemous beasties part, but the Australian coasts are beautiful and friendly in my experience.

Anyhow, it was just FYI. :)

Posted by: American Pundit at January 23, 2005 01:05 AM
Comment #41956

AP, polls just after the invasion of Iraq indicated solid support by the Aussies for the invasion. If their support for the Bush Admin. today has waned, it is to their credit. The majority of Americans have had a change of heart over the decision to invade Iraq too.

Posted by: David R. Remer at January 24, 2005 05:34 PM
Comment #41975

David,

Kirk, there is one big difference. The scandals of the Clinton Admin. came out in his second term, the public was not aware when they reelected him.

I have to take great exception with this statement. Please see the list below.

1992
Feb – Geniffer Flowers tapes are made public
May – Progressive Review outlines basic elements and players involved in what will become the Whitewater Scandal.
1993
July – Foster suicide, White House Staff claims Executive Privilege to seal his office / home to prevent FBI Agents from searching.
1994
Feb – Fornigate, Allegations by 4 Arkansas State Troopers
June – Paula Jones goes public
Aug – First Special Prosecutor’s report on Whitewater
1996
March – Hillary’s cattle future deal made public.
April – Travelgate, White House Travel Office testimony.
June – Nearly 1000 FBI Files on mainly Republicans in White House
Oct – John Huang / Lippo Group made public

That is what diminishes America’s future and makes other countries appear more appealing. 90 some percent of Canadians would not want to give up their health care system in exchange for America’s.

Maybe this is because Canadians listen to American Media Outlets or prefer depending on the government for healthcare rather than looking at facts like these from OECD Health Data.

1) As a percentage of GDP the US spends 13.9% on healthcare compared to Canada’s 9.2%

2) Public spending on healthcare as a % of total government spending in the US is 20% compared to 15% for Canada.

3) The number of Physicians / Nurses per 1000 people is 2.7 / 8.3 in the US compared to 2.1 / 7.6 in Canada

4) The number of Scanners / MRI Machines per 1 mill. people are 26.9 / 16.0 for the US and 8.1 / 1.7 for Canada.

All the above needs to be put into perspective of the Tax Freedom Day for the US and Canada as well. In the US Tax Freedom came of April 11, 2004 while Canadians had to work until June 28, 2004 to pay off their taxes, which help cover their Universal Health Coverage.

Canadians in the majority view their french/english dual language as a strength, not a weakness. Canadians in large part embrace diversity of opinion, religion, lifestyle, and political perspective. That is no longer true in America and that’s a fact born out in headlines year after year.

Is this why Quebec Province routinely votes to secede from Canada missing by only a few percentage points last vote?

The U.S. has lost its committment to teachers, and public schools

I would say that the teachers and NEA have lost their commitment to the students. How else can you explain them fighting so hard against any form of job performance measurement?

As for the Patriot Act, I will agree there are portions that concern me. We will have to keep a very tight reign on the government to prevent the act from potential abuse.

Posted by: Kirk at January 25, 2005 01:10 AM
Comment #41985

Kirk, you cite mostly incredible politically motivated accusations that had no basis in fact in his first term, and proved to be factless in his second term.

If accusations are sufficient, Bush should be impeached immediately. Let us not forget too, Clinton had a Republican Congress in his second term. Surely if there was substance to those accusations, they would have been fleshed out and prosecuted.

And like I said, the public was not aware in his first term. As we know, political stories break every weak, 99.9/10 % of them never make it to the general public’s awareness level. Ask the public what a PSA is regarding Soc. Sec.? Most will tell you they don’t know, despite the fact that this story has been in the media for quite some time now.

Awareness was the key word.

Posted by: David R. Remer at January 25, 2005 08:39 AM
Comment #41987

Oh c’mon, Kirk. All those so-called scandals were made up. I’m surprised you didn’t mention that Hillary killed Foster and that Bill murdered forty-some odd people to keep the hooker tale secret. Please.

Your Republican heroes spent tens of millions of the tax dollars you hold so dear on a fishing expedition, and came up with squat.

As a percentage of GDP the US spends 13.9% on healthcare compared to Canada?s 9.2%

And that’s the problem isn’t it. We spend way more on healthcare than any other country without complete coverage. Canada spends almost half as much and everybody is covered.

Healthcare in America is way overpriced and Congressional Republicans will not deal with the real problems. Instead, they’re pushing this wacky “tort reform” agenda that will maximize corporate profits, but do nothing to lower healthcare costs.

Posted by: American Pundit at January 25, 2005 08:49 AM
Comment #42057
Kirk, you cite mostly incredible politically motivated accusations that had no basis in fact in his first term, and proved to be factless in his second term.
Oh c’mon, Kirk. All those so-called scandals were made up. I’m surprised you didn’t mention that Hillary killed Foster and that Bill murdered forty-some odd people to keep the hooker tale secret. Please.

Please guys, take off the rose colored glasses. David said there were no scandals in Clinton’s first term. I simply pointed out that he was wrong.

There are taped conversations between Clinton and Flowers. Clinton even testified under oath during a deposition for the Jones case that he had sexual contact with Flowers.

It is a fact that FBI and Park Police were kept from Fosters office and home while White House staff searched both. It was widely reported in the mainstream media.

Paula Jones was paid $850,000 to settle out of court. Why would the president claim executive privilege, and immunity from prosecution while in office and then turn around a pay a sum 425% of his yearly salary to settle if there was nothing to the charges?

Cattle future deal is fact. Travelgate, the travel office staff was fired for misappropriation of funds and the contract given to Thomason a friend of Hillary. By the way Billy Dale was found not guilty following a 30 minute jury delibration.

FBI Files in the White House are a fact, again widely reported in the mainstream media.

But we digress. The original post was to discuss people wanting to leave because of Bush.

We have people dieing on a regular basis trying to get into this country from all parts of the world. If it is so terrible why are so many knocking down the door to get in?

As for the wonderful Canadian healthcare system, AP convienently ignores the lack of diagnostic equipment and lower ratio of doctors and nurses per patient. Not to mention the extra 84 days that Canadians have to work to pay the taxes to buy a spot in line to have an MRI.

Canadians are becoming disenchanted with their government healthcare system.

http://www.asq.org/news/qualitynews/2004/august/17/20040817canadiangrades.html

During a trip to Nunavut last week, (Prime Minister Paul) Martin said his government supports a smaller scale drug plan but wants to use available funding to reduce waiting lists by creating a national home care program and training more doctors.

“This is where it comes back to the poll,” says Patel. Canadians “do not wish to see an expansion of the healthcare system unless and until we address the number-one problem facing Canadians, which is the lack of doctors, nurses and technologists, and the waiting times getting worse.”
The Fraser Institute released a report card on Canada’s Healthcare System. The link below will take you to the graphs associated with the report.
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/chapterfiles/wyt2004%20pt2.pdf#

According to the institute the wait time between being refered by a GP and an appointment with a Specialist ranges from 6.9 weeks to 11.8 weeks depending on province. Additionally the wait time between the appointment with the Specialist and actual treatment by the province ranges from 6.9 weeks to 24.5 weeks again depending on province.

For instance Orthopedic Surgery takes on average takes 37.9 weeks from the referral by a GP until the patient is treated. That includes 13.8 weeks to get the appointment with the Orthopedic Surgeon and another 24.1 weeks to actually be treated by the province.

You know, I think I will keep the piece of crap US Healthcare System if you don’t mind. Anyone who wants to move to Canada and live under their socialized system is welcome to.

Posted by: Kirk at January 26, 2005 03:21 AM
Comment #42084
“…address the number-one problem facing Canadians, which is the lack of doctors, nurses and technologists, and the waiting times getting worse.”

You don’t think they’ll solve the problem? Or that we couldn’t set up a better system than the Canadians? Why are conservatives always so pessimistic about what Americans can achieve?

Anyhow, for every story about a Canadian waiting for an appointment, I can give you a story about an American who can’t even afford to make one.

My favorite is the carpenter who needed a $200k heart operation. He had no insurance (couldn’t afford it), and there was no way he could come up with the $200k. Being a resourceful American, instead of just waiting to die he had the operation done in India. He also took a side trip to the Taj Mahal. Total price, including airfare: $10k.

I just got back from India. I’d prefer to make US healthcare more affordable. Why are you against that?

Posted by: American Pundit at January 26, 2005 11:14 AM
Comment #42245
I’d prefer to make US healthcare more affordable. Why are you against that?

I am not against making healthcare more affordable but, letting the government control healthcare under a socialized system is not the answer. Have you ever seen the government reduce the cost of anything they get their hands on?

Posted by: Kirk at January 27, 2005 08:50 PM
Comment #42297

Umm… Yeah. VA benefits for one.

Posted by: American Pundit at January 28, 2005 10:24 AM