Third Party & Independents: Archives

VEM —

I feel your pain. I was despondent at first, too, before I realized two things: Bush no longer has an excuse for failure, and another Bush term could be the apogee of the pendulum swing.

I’m not really a Democrat either (despite what some other WatchBloggers may think), but I registered as one so I could vote in the primaries.

To be honest, I’m disgusted with Congress and
all of the parasites in D.C.

Especially after hearing today about all of the
following pork-barrel spending recently passed
by Congress:

While lawmakers and President Bush lauded the omnibus for holding domestic spending,
excluding defense and foreign aid, members of Congress showed no restraint in their
hunger for pork-barrel projects. The thousands of earmarks lurking in the bill include:
$3.5 million for bus acquisition in Atlanta, Ga.;
$2 million for kitchen relocation in Fairbanks North Star Borough in Fairbanks, Alaska;
$1.5 million for a demonstration project to transport naturally chilled water from Lake Ontario to Lake Onondaga;
$500,000 for the Kincaid Park Soccer and Nordic Ski Center in Anchorage, Alaska;
$250,000 for the Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, Tenn.;
$200,000 for Fenton Street Village pedestrian linkages in Montgomery Co., Md.;
$100,000 for a municipal swimming pool in Ottawa, Kan.;
$80,000 for the San Diego Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center;
$75,000 for the Paper Industry International Hall of Fame in Appleton, Wis.;
$35,000 for the Alabama Sports Hall of Fame; and
$25,000 for fitness equipment for the YMCA in Bradford County, Pa.
Pork

What the heck is going on over there in D.C. ?

Why do politicians succumb to greed and
corruption the instant they get to D.C. ?

You wouldn’t know we had record level deficits, National Debt, and a doomed Social Security based on the way Congress is spending !

And why isn’t anyone in Congress waving red flags
and alerting the people about all of this irresponsible pork-barrel spending ?

Perhaps we need a new National Pork Alert System ?
______________________________________
… . .SEVERE (in conference)
______________________________________
… . .HIGH (appropriations markup)
______________________________________
… . .ELEVATED (debating budget)
______________________________________
… . GUARDED (in session)
______________________________________
… . .LOW (congress in recess)
______________________________________
PorkAlert

Where’s the outrage about this ? Perhaps resistance is futile.

[X] Let’s boot these jerks out of office ?

I think if Progressives would do two key things, they will dominate the rest of the 21st century in politics:

1. Return to FDR’s way of being willing to field a muscular and stalwart DEFENSE of the country, and without such prevarication as “global tests”.

2. Temper the social agenda with a healthy dose of personal responsibility, such that those who are merely lazy aren’t afforded an opportunity for a free ride.

I think [X] FORCE is required.
Nothing else seems to be working.
Government will NEVER do it themselves.
Congress is busy now voting themselves another raise.

Ciggy is right, but I don’t think it is possible to achieve.

Ciggy is right, but I don’t think it is possible to achieve.

Do you think this would work: [X]FORCE

Ladies and Gentlemen, the election, contrary to popular belief, is not yet over. The recounts are still underway, and on reputable professor has run the numbers and concluded that the chances of the difference between the final exit poll numbers and the actual tallies in the states of Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania are 250 million to 1.

There is a huge amount of activity taking place in the election recount and even Kerry is for the first time implying that the Ohio recount could yet give him the electoral college votes to seize the Whitehouse from Pres. Bush.

One Whitehouse spokesperson is saying the media needs to get past it, Bush won and all this recount effort will not change the election.

Hang in there folks, the non-traditional media is gaining steam on this issue. Kerry has requested donations to cover the costs of recounts in New Mexico and Ohio, another hint that Kerry is seeing some light at the end of the tunnel since those recount efforts are still underway and he is quietly encouraging them to continue.

David wrote:
“Ladies and Gentlemen, the election, contrary to popular belief, is not yet over.”

So I guess the tinfoil cap I’ve been suspected of wearing all these weeks can finally be traded in for something much more suited to my dashingly feminine style, right? &;^)

sorry Adrienne, the tin foil hat still fits. On the bright side, nothing says one cant wear dashing attire ALONG with a tin foil hat…

Quite right, Adrienne. I knew you were sane on this issue all along from Nader/Camejo emails. It is a subject however, that will remain under the radar until some conclusive results of the recounts are available. There is however, a tremendous amount of manhours and expense taking place to do these recounts, and the longer it stays under the radar, the less resistance their will be to conducting them.

If they were to become major news, the backlash over the costs and impatience with the results would work against the recounts.

Misha, that’s no way to speak to a lady. :-)

Ciggy—

It is a fallacy that Democrats are weak on defense and Republican are the opposite. It was Bush the first who started the now famed drawdown of the military after the first Gulf War that left the country short of forces to carry out it stated mandate of fight two global conflicts simultaneously.

I personally advocate and uphold the principles of personal responsibility, but Republicans as a whole seem to run from the idea. Rumsfeld has yet to resign his post despite the fiasco that is Iraq and Bush still declines to admit his many mistakes. There is something to be said for leadership by example.

transport naturally chilled water

????!! But, to keep it chilled, wouldn’t you have to… And when it gets to the grocery store, don’t they put it in the… What was the problem with the line-item veto again?

Return to FDR’s way of being willing to field a muscular and stalwart DEFENSE of the country

Ciggy, Republicans complained that Clinton needed to practice a more humble foreign policy. He was too strong on defense for Republicans.

Kerry would have done far better than the scatter-brained, unfocused defense policy we’ve got now. When al Qaeda ships one of the loose nukes that Bush is slow to get off the market into New York Harbor in one of the 95 out of 100 containers that doesn’t get screened, you’ll understand what I’m talking about.

Temper the social agenda with a healthy dose of personal responsibility

HELLO! We balanced the budget, reformed welfare, and cut the size of the federal government back to the size it was in the fifties (all for nothing, apparently - thanks Republicans). I’m not sure what more you could possibly want.

Actually, the government only slowed spending during Clinton’s
terms from 1992 to 2000, but they really never balanced
the budget, because the National Debt still increased every year in those
8 years by $1.6 trillion U.S. dollars. Adjusting for inflation using year 1992 U.S. dollars,
the debt still increased in those 8 years by $1.3 trillion 1992 U.S. dollars.

Had the budget really ever been balanced, the National Debt would have stopped growing.
But, the government has increased the National Debt every year for the last 44 years.
1950 to 2000

The government came close in the year 2000, but not quite.
The National Debt still increased by $18 billion that year.
Inflation rates only varied between 1.6% to 3.4% during 1992 to 2000,
and dropped from 3.4% in 2000 to 2.85% in 2001.
So adjusting for inflation, the government still never balanced the budget in year 2000.

What is alarming is the acceleration of spending since year 2000,
massive pork-barrel spending, and waste.

It is not just the fault of Republicans.
It is now the Democrats turn to try to make you to believe that.
The truth is, it is ALL of Congress, ALL 435 of them, ALL parties, and ALL politicians.

It is a looting frenzy cleverly disguised as strong representation.
It is a ponzi scheme designed and evolved by politicians for many years.
Much like the “Oil for Food” scheme.
We never learn and history repeats itself over and over.

We expect much from government, so government expects much in the way of revenues.
After receiving the revenues, begins the task of finding ways for the politicians to pilfer those revenues.
To ignore government is to invite greed and corruption.
When the cat is away, the mice will play.
_______________________________________________
National Debt increased $1.57 trillion
09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32 Bush 43
09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62 Bush 43
09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16 Bush 43
09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06 Bush 43
_______________________________________________
National Debt increased $1.61 trillion
09/29/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86 Clinton
09/30/1999 $5,656,270,901,615.43 Clinton
09/30/1998 $5,526,193,008,897.62 Clinton
09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34 Clinton
09/30/1996 $5,224,810,939,135.73 Clinton
09/29/1995 $4,973,982,900,709.39 Clinton
09/30/1994 $4,692,749,910,013.32 Clinton
09/30/1993 $4,411,488,883,139.38 Clinton
09/30/1992 $4,064,620,655,521.66 Clinton
_______________________________________________
National Debt increased $1.32 trillion
09/30/1991 $3,665,303,351,697.03 Bush 41
09/28/1990 $3,233,313,451,777.25 Bush 41
09/29/1989 $2,857,430,960,187.32 Bush 41
09/30/1988 $2,602,337,712,041.16 Bush 41
09/30/1987 $2,350,276,890,953.00 Bush 41
_______________________________________________

Here’s just a few examples of the latest pork…..

$3.5 million for bus acquisition in Atlanta, Ga.;
$2.0 million for kitchen relocation in Fairbanks North Star Borough in Fairbanks, Alaska;
$1.5 million for a demonstration project to transport naturally chilled water from Lake Ontario to Lake Onondaga;
$500,000 for the Kincaid Park Soccer and Nordic Ski Center in Anchorage, Alaska;
$250,000 for the Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, Tenn.;
$200,000 for Fenton Street Village pedestrian linkages in Montgomery Co., Md.;
$100,000 for a municipal swimming pool in Ottawa, Kan.;
$80,000 for the San Diego Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center;
$75,000 for the Paper Industry International Hall of Fame in Appleton, Wis.;
$35,000 for the Alabama Sports Hall of Fame;
$25,000 for fitness equipment for the YMCA in Bradford County, Pa.

Misha:
“sorry Adrienne, the tin foil hat still fits.”

Well, I’m no fan of shiny headgear, but at least I’m in good company. After Nader, Cobb, and Badnarik did all the hard and dirty work, John Kerry has finally decided to join the ranks on behalf of We the People - who are so _wacky_ that we would actually expect a measure of fairness and accuracy in our elections.

“On the bright side, nothing says one cant wear dashing attire ALONG with a tin foil hat…”

I’m making mine into a tam o’ shanter to match my lovely tartan skirt! */;^)

David:
“It is a subject however, that will remain under the radar until some conclusive results of the recounts are available.”

I’m going to cut and paste something I wrote yesterday in the Blue column here:
I wrote:
“When you look at official election results that make absolutely no sense, the fact that the media (aside from Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, and the folks at Air America Radio) are ignoring the election fraud story seems seems stranger still. For instance, a suburban precinct outside Columbus, Ohio, that has 800 voters, but recorded 3,893 for Bush. Or in a town west of Cleveland, with about 13,000 voters, but some 18,000 votes were cast. Or in suburban Cleveland, 29 precincts reported 93,000 more votes than they had voters.
Or what about election officials in Warren County (outside of Cincinnati) trying to justify their extreme secrecy measures on election day by locking down the building where votes were counted and preventing reporters or other citizens from watching the count, then claiming that the FBI and Homeland Security agents had warned them that they were under Code Red terrorist alert - a claim which the FBI has subsequently denied.”

These kinds of things in Ohio don’t even require a recount to point directly at fraud. There are plenty of glaringly suspicious things with the Florida totals as well.

“There is however, a tremendous amount of manhours and expense taking place to do these recounts, and the longer it stays under the radar, the less resistance their will be to conducting them.”

No doubt you are right.

“If they were to become major news, the backlash over the costs and impatience with the results would work against the recounts.”

I think we should at least be hearing a little more about this story than we have - and because we haven’t, it makes me think something very rotten and fishy is going on with the media.
The other day, Jesse Jackson spoke to an enormous crowd of roaringly angry people who felt disenfranchised during the Ohio election - at least a short sound-bite clip of that should have been on the news, but wasn’t.
Are we experiencing the first signs of state sponsored media? Scares the hell out of me to think so - and makes me wonder if the freedom of the internet will be censored shortly.

“John Kerry has finally decided to join the ranks on behalf of We the People”

Adrienne: kerry cares about We the People about as much as Bush does. When you finally start seeing that (soon I hope) then you will finally see just how fraudulent this staged election really was.

I actually hope that the left wins this and overturns the election results, forcing a different president onto a large number of people and creating what I believe will be a bloody, major civil uprising between left and right.

Due to blind partisanship and total disrespect for our Constitution, this may be the only way to become America again and rid us of this socialist democracy idea that gained power in the 90s.

Fortunately, the U.S. is not remotely close to revolution.
However, history repeats itself over and over, and that
will probably happen some day.

However, there may be a much easier way to avoid that,
and bring about a new era of positive changes.

Voters have always had this power,
but have never, yet, used this power effectively.

Why not? Because we (me too) always fall
victim to clever distraction created by politicians.
The clever petty partisan politics bickering,
fighting over money, and the myth that we (everyone)
can live at the expense of everyone else.

These are the tried-and-true tactics long used by politicians
to cloud the issues, obscure the facts, change
the subject, confuse opponents with non-sequitur arguments,
and distract the people from the true single fundamental problem.

And all the while, the politicians secretly take
tremendous glee in all of this.

So, are all politicians evil ? Not always.
And if they are, it is because we allow it.
Because, we could take almost anyone,
throw them into Congress, and they would
not be able to resist the numerous temptations.
They would also succumb to the greed and corruption
rooted in one of the most basic and natural human tendencies: laziness

Amazingly, our brave forefathers built into the
system an ability of voters to “vote out” bad politicians, and we amazingly ignore it.

Why is it that voters do not look upon Congress as a single entity,
and simply do that one simple thing ?

Wouldn’t that be preferable to revolution ?

kctim:
“Adrienne: kerry cares about We the People about as much as Bush does. When you finally start seeing that (soon I hope) then you will finally see just how fraudulent this staged election really was.”

Actually Tim, I’m pretty well disgusted with Kerry and the Democrats at the moment. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for doing so little during all the time that Nader, Cobb and Badnarik have been plugging away at uncovering what was so obviously a rigged election.
I think they were too afraid of what the conservative media would say about them - the sour grapes accusation. But that is bullshit - after getting so many people out to the polls, and promising that they’d make sure that every vote would be counted, they should have damn well followed up on it - and very publically too.

“I actually hope that the left wins this and overturns the election results, forcing a different president onto a large number of people and creating what I believe will be a bloody, major civil uprising between left and right.”

First of all, whether the stealing of votes changes the outcome of the election or not, that simply isn’t going to happen. Bush did exactly that in 2000 and nobody on the Democratic side started a war and began murdering Republicans, y’know?
Secondly, why on Earth would you want that? Especially the bloody part? I think its pretty obvious that we still haven’t completely recovered from our last Civil War. Besides, with the threat of terrorism and with the horror of fighting two wars in two different countries (one of them an unnecessary and terrible quagmire of tremendous proportions) the last thing we need to start is another civil war at home.

“Due to blind partisanship and total disrespect for our Constitution, this may be the only way to become America again and rid us of this socialist democracy idea that gained power in the 90s.”

As you know from previous discussions we’ve had, I agree with you about the need for politicians on both the left and right to have a greater amount of respect for our Constitution, but I honestly don’t understand what you are getting at with the rest of your sentence.
Clinton was a centrist president who did his best to compromise with the majority Republicans he ended up with. He did away with Welfare, globalised the economy, balanced the budget and left Dubya with an enormous surplus. And for doing so, the Republicans hated his guts, tried to impeach him and had us pick up the gigantic tab for their witch hunt over a couple of blowjobs from a cheap broad who offered her services gladly.

Adrienne
I never mentioned clinton or democrats or republicans as being good or bad. It is not about party.

“Secondly, why on Earth would you want that?”
Because OUR country and its way of life as guaranteed by OUR Constitution is fading fast.

Your mischaracterization of clinton and his works only helps prove that blind partisanship that has taken hold of our country.
People look at “their party” and will justify and rationalize everything to make things look better. The way the right is doing it with Bush and the way the left did(and still does) with clinton are perfect examples.
Welfare is still rampant and abused, there was never a real surplus and the budget was balanced only to Dems. Instead of seeing a man who abused his power, committed perjury and lied to the American people, the left blames everyone else but him. WHY? Only because he is a Democrat.
If a rich, white, CEO did this, the left would be calling for his head.
It is not about wrong and right anymore, it is about “who” is doing it what “party” they belong to and BOTH sides are guilty!

Can you “honestly” say that you would still be worried about the vote if kerry had been chosen?
I would say no you wouldn’t and that the very same people over on the right calling us “conspiacy” nuts would be questioning the things you are now.

A socialist democracy has been slowly been taking over our Republic for decades, it gained momentum in the 90s and keeps rolling under Bush.

VEM’s topic here is just another example of “party” over the “people.”

Surpluses? Where did that myth of surpluses come from?
OK, government (not just Clinton) slowed spending from 1992 to 2000,
but there has never been any annual surpluses in
the last 44 years, because government has
increased the national debt every year for the last 44 years.
The National DEBT increased by $1.6 trillion during Clinton’s 8 years.

V. Edward Martin,

It has taken me nearly a month, but I am finally over the 2004 Presidential Election. My candidate lost and I have to deal with that, I have to come to grips with the fact that Bush will be in the Oval Office for four more years… … . .
… … But I have learned something about myself in this process, namely that I am not Republican Party material; indeed while I have always considered myself squarely in the Independent camp, I find myself leaning more and more toward Democratic Party ideas and principles… …
… … .I have wallowed in self-pity for the allowable amount of time; I must now rejoin the battle to save America from not only the oppression of theocratic rule, but from fanatical, bottom-line driven, human eating Wal-Mart as well stay tuned!

Perhaps we are victims of our own crime ?
Do you know what that crime is that applies to both voters and politicians ?
What makes it so difficult to decide on which party to support ?
What makes politicians’ brains seem to turn to jelly soon after they are elected ?
Does history have to repeat itself over-and-over ?
If nothing is done to reform government, what will be the short and long term outcomes ?

What is the real fundamental problem with government ?
If you know what the fundamental problem is, what do you think we should do about it ?
Is what we are already doing working well enough ? Are things getting better or worse ?
If you know what we should do, what is required to realistically force it happen ?

What is fueling the unhappiness. ?
Most of us know what the fundamental problem is.
Most of us are searching for ways to fix it.
We theoretically have the power to fix it.
Perhaps, we just don’t realize what the fix is ?

kctim:
“I never mentioned clinton or democrats or republicans as being good or bad. It is not about party.”

But you did. You said:
“I actually hope that the left wins this and overturns the election results, forcing a different president onto a large number of people and creating what I believe will be a bloody, major civil uprising between left and right.”

Left and Right means the Democratic and Republican parties to a majority degree, no?

You also said:
“Due to blind partisanship and total disrespect for our Constitution, this may be the only way to become America again and rid us of this socialist democracy idea that gained power in the 90s.”

You were talking about the two major parties and their blind partisanship. And since you mentioned the 90’s, I naturally assumed you were referring to the Clinton years.

“Your mischaracterization of clinton and his works only helps prove that blind partisanship that has taken hold of our country.”

That might be true if I considered myself a Democrat, but I’m not. I’m Green Party, but vote for Democrats in major elections as the lesser of two evils since third parties don’t yet have a chance to win because of the electoral college.

“People look at “their party” and will justify and rationalize everything to make things look better. The way the right is doing it with Bush and the way the left did(and still does) with clinton are perfect examples.”

Actually, Clinton wasn’t quite liberal enough for me. Although I admired what he did with our economy, as well as his performance with diplomatic relations around the world, I had a lot of problems with many of the things he did while in office.

“Welfare is still rampant and abused,”

This is simply untrue. My sister-in-law worked in a Welfare office during the Clinton years and described to me in detail what happened when it was severely cut and restricted and what it did to the poorest of poor people in America.

“there was never a real surplus and the budget was balanced only to Dems.”

In my opinion Clinton did a _bloody brilliant_ job with the economy after the Reagan and Bush Sr. years.

Instead of seeing a man who abused his power, committed perjury and lied to the American people, the left blames everyone else but him. WHY?

I don’t care who presidents have sex with - that’s their personal business and no one elses. What presidents do with their policies is what concern me.

Only because he is a Democrat.

Wrong. I don’t care to delve into the sexual habits of any politician.

“If a rich, white, CEO did this, the left would be calling for his head.”

No, only if a CEO steals and cheats from his investors and from the public at large do people on the left get upset. Its only the Conservatives who seem to have a huge problem with keeping their noses out of peoples personal moral choices.

“It is not about wrong and right anymore,”

Judging wrong and right about a politicians sex life is an immature, puritanical, and ridiculous notion, in my opinion. I honestly don’t think its any of our business, unless they’re charging it to us, or letting it interfere with the practical matters of doing their job.

“it is about “who” is doing it what “party” they belong to and BOTH sides are guilty!”

All I care about is how the parties policies affect the people.

“Can you “honestly” say that you would still be worried about the vote if kerry had been chosen?”

Yes, honestly. When the totals don’t make sense it spells fraud. When there is no paper trail and the systems can be easily hacked, it leaves theft open in every direction. When voters are disenfranchised it smacks of racism and contempt of the public at large. I don’t approve of any of those things becoming commonplace in America.

“I would say no you wouldn’t and that the very same people over on the right calling us “conspiacy” nuts would be questioning the things you are now.”

I feel that EVERYONE should be taking the fairness and accuracy of our elections extremely seriously.

“A socialist democracy has been slowly been taking over our Republic for decades, it gained momentum in the 90s and keeps rolling under Bush.”

I’m so sick of anything liberal being labeled socialist - it shows that people have never read enough Marx to actually understand the difference.
As for Dubya, from where I stand, he doesn’t know the meaning of the word compassion, despite his claim. He makes these sweeping statements about programs people want, and then doesn’t actually fund anything. Its all hot air.

Yes, yes, yes, Democrats boast an alleged ability to be “smarter” about defense rather than the “harder” methods under the Republicans, but they still ruin the soup by sucking up overmuch to international bodies, when it’s OUR security on the line, OUR children facing possible Beslan-type massacres, and “global test” doesn’t cut it.

Do I think Democrats would make fewer blunders than Rummy has in Iraq? Possibly—it’s a coin-toss in my mind, people being people and imperfect. I recall some Democrats under FDR throwing lives away needlessly in World War II, and under Johnson in Vietnam. I remember Clinton bombing empty tents thinking that would teach Osama his lesson, too. What’s more important is a difference in attitude and ability to rally the troops, which right now the right wing has and the left wing doesn’t. “Go out and be good peacekeepers and international citizens” is not exactly what will fire up a Marine rifle platoon to kill their quota of terrorists on a given day.

But I didn’t like how much I had to hold my nose exactly one month ago. I’m back to voting Libertarian from now on.

Adrienne
“Left and Right means the Democratic and Republican parties to a majority degree, no?”
-But where did I say one party was better than the other?

-The 90s, clinton years or whatever you want to call them is when our rights started taking more, out in the open hits. I don’t blame dumbass clinton, I blame the movement away from our Constitution on all of our representatives.

-Not a dem? OK. But you still are defending at all costs.

-Welfare: I would never question someone I know nothing about, your sister described “her” accounts to you. Now, if you would like to join me and go to a welfare office the next time I am paid to clean up, I can show you people getting out of new vehicles, chain smoking, carrying McDonalds bags etc… The place is crowded with them. They make me so sick and pissed off that even the truely needy people make me mad by the time I am done.

-My wrong or right statements were directed towards the lefts hypocrisy of the clinton crimes.
People defend their party at all costs but will turn around and crucify the other party for doing the same thing. Lott and hillary race comments for instance.
Its wrong for us to do this.

“I feel that EVERYONE should be taking the fairness and accuracy of our elections extremely seriously.”
-But people don’t if it does not benefit their party. That is what I’m trying to say.
If hillary wins in 08 (god forbid) the very same people on the right calling us loons now, will be the same ones suspecting fraud. And then it will be you who are calling us sore losers and loons.

“I’m so sick of anything liberal being labeled socialist”
-I did not equate liberals with socialist in my posts on here, YOU did.
I HAVE read marx, his ideas and all the other crap he had to say.
Read the ten planks and please show me how none of those are in action today.

As far as your Dubya jab: Why would I care about Dubya? I didn’t vote for him and don’t support his Constitution shredding or most of his nanny state programs.

“programs people want” is a major problem.
Cut that junk and get to “programs people NEED” and maybe we could get the debt back on track some.

It is hard to follow all the accusations of voter fraud, but I as a Bush voter I consider it a compliment. You all attribute super human powers to us formerly ordinary mortal Republicans. Think of how we can trick and manipulate the masses. One Republican evidently can fool a dozen Democrats. Let�s consider how we did that. The fraud conspiracy people fall into three overlapping categories.

The recount people are probably the most reasonable. I don�t have a problem with recounting. It will probably produce a slightly different outcome each time you count, but Bush�s margin in Ohio is high enough that I doubt it would change the outcome. (On a historical note, Bush won Ohio by more votes than John Kennedy won the whole United States in 1960). The recount people contend that Ohio election boards, which have by law two Republicans and two Democrats who certify the results, were tricked and/or corrupted by the Republicans.

If we recount and Kerry still doesn�t win, we encounter the voting machine people. They are convinced that the Republicans, under the eyes of Democrats who run most of the precincts where this is alleged to have happened, managed to put in machines that didn�t count the votes properly or arrived full of votes for Bush. Poor Democrats. It makes you proud to be a Republican that Democrats are convinced that we are so much smarter than they are that we can not only pull this off this kind of complicated deception, but not remain undetected by anyone but the alternative media. You can’t prove the negative, so these guys can believe in this until the mother ship comes to pick them up or the Kool Aid arrives.

Then we have the suppression people. Evidently one old Republican hanging around a polling place in a poor district can scare away scores of voters. In this case, Republicans should be proud that they are so fierce. Democratic voters just wilt under our gaze, as blank and pitiless as the sun. This also is impossible to disprove. How many people would have voter for Kerry if the Republican poll watcher hadn�t given them nasty looks as they came in, or maybe he distracted them with shinny objects. Some probably got so flustered that they voted for Pat Buchanan (and he wasn�t even on the ballot).

I guess everyone needs a myth to prove the righteousness of his cause. So keep it up. It flatters us Republican voters and gives you all something to do. I have stopped finding this annoying and now do enjoy the endless permutations. It is quantum mechanics with all its parallel universes. In several of them, I suppose Kerry won. Those who can’t get to Canada might consider an alternate reality. Oh, sorry � too late.

Yes. Cut the junk.
But how?
By cleaning house first:
_______________________________________________________________
Vote OUT all Incumbents,
NO exceptions,
Repeatedly, EVERY election,
UNTIL things improve drastically (8 to 12 years; maybe more if necessary)
_______________________________________________________________

One great benefit to this would be that
politicians would start to police their own
ranks to oust the irresponsible politicians
amongst them that are causing them to all get
voted out. The military uses this technique
(i.e. punish the entire squad or platoon for
one person’s transgression, which make the
entire group apply pressure on the member to reform.

Even if it doesn’t work, wouldn’t it be fun
to watch those bums get fired every election ?

I don’t know. Maybe there will be more luck over at the Democrat or Republican blogs.
The Dems are looking for a new message to win more voters to their side.
I just heard the Dems are thinking about reversing their position on abortion to get more votes.

kctim:
“But where did I say one party was better than the other?”

It seems pretty obvious which you prefer even though you never come out and say so openly. Sometimes, however, you give yourself away, as when you said:

“And then it will be you who are calling us sore losers and loons.”

Aren’t you including yourself in the “us”, meaning the Right?

“I can show you people getting out of new vehicles, chain smoking, carrying McDonalds bags etc…”

That’s just credit card debt that those people will never pay off in a million years. They give credit to anyone these days, even people on welfare. Its sad.

“They make me so sick and pissed off that even the truely needy people make me mad by the time I am done.”

There are so many poor people who have kids but can’t take care of them properly. With welfare it was bad, now it is much, much worse - its really the kids that get to me when I think about the demise of welfare.

“”programs people want” is a major problem.”

Like public education funding? Help with college tuitions?

“Cut that junk and get to “programs people NEED” and maybe we could get the debt back on track some.”

The programs I was thinking of are very much needed, but woefully underfunded despite all of Dubya’s inflated “compassionate” rhetoric.

NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo…..
Please. Repeat after me.
No more government programs.
No more government programs.
We don’t need any more government programs.
We don’t need any more government programs.

Are ya’ll gluttons for punishment or what ?

Politicians love it though. They love to
get into the money stream, fill their pockets,
and gleefully watch the rest of us squabble over the crumbs that are left.

To those of you who think its a goodidea for kerry to encourage recounts, remember this:

Nixon lost to Kennedy by a total national vote of 117,000! Eisenhower told Nixon that he should contest the Election on the basis that Richard Daley, Mayor of Chicago, committed voter fraud in Chicago, giving Illinois to Kennedy. Nixon declined to contest the election saying that he didn;t want to put the country through a contested election! The popular margin by which Kennedy won is less then the margin by which Kerry lost in Ohio!

Also, If Kerry were to overturn Ohio and gain electoral majority, he would win the Electoral vote and lose the popular vote a la Bush 2000! Do we really want this?

Also, should Bush contest Pennsylvania? After all the margin for Kerry in PA is less than the margin for Bush in Ohio. Believe me, it wouldn’t take much to uncover voter fraud in heavily Democratic Philly!

Well, maybe if we recount these votes enough times,
the outcome will eventually be the one we like?

OK, so there was voter fraud, and
it is wrong, which ever side is doing it (both sides of course).
Is there enough to overturn the election ? I doubt it.
If there was, it would probably at least appear
on the main nightly news channels.

Most of this voter fraud could be eliminated
with biometric identification.

Numerous other types of fraud could be also
eliminated with biometric identification.

But, then all of the “Big Brother is Watching You” nut cases will emerge to oppose it.

I’ve always felt (for the most part), if your not doing anything wrong, what’s there to worry about?

Perhaps more energy should be spent on that?
Actually, it’s going to happen anyway, eventually, because it makes sense.

How about that election in Ukraine ?

Jay, I can’t believe you as an American said what you did. Listen to yourself : Also, If Kerry were to overturn Ohio and gain electoral majority, he would win the Electoral vote and lose the popular vote a la Bush 2000! Do we really want this?

When, Jay, would we ever want the legally rightful candidate not to become the elected official? If the recount shows Kerry won, then the Electoral College should vote him in, and that would be the legal and Constitutionally correct thing to happen. I am amazed that you seem to be arguing that we would be better off allowing a candidate who didn’t rightfully win the votes necessary to take office anyway. Does our democracy and rule of law mean so little to you? Do you really want the U.S. to look like the Ukraine?

Adrienne
I also stated this:
“If hillary wins in 08 (god forbid) the very same people on the right calling US loons now, will be the same ones suspecting fraud.”

I have views that make liberals look like conservatives and neocons look liberal.
I vote for the PERSON not the party.
And that is all I’m trying to say, the people need to be for the people, not the party.

Besides, conservatives think your a conspiracy nut, right?
But yet, I have been just about your only, non liberal supporter on this voter fraud thing.
You would probably be very amazed at just how much we agree on.

Daniel: Amen brother! But no one is listening to us.

David:
“I am amazed that you seem to be arguing that we would be better off allowing a candidate who didn’t rightfully win the votes necessary to take office anyway”
- Its kind of like R.B. Hayes and the way he was elected. Only this time it was so much more out in the open and obvious.

Votes and rights just don’t mean as much anymore, if they aren’t in support of your party.
Sad really.
Every vote, every right!

kctim,

Yeah, some are not listening yet, because
they are all distracted with the petty bickering and minutia,
which fills politicians with glee and great merriment.

Some are listening….here’s what Roy Downing wrote…

I have just finished reading the 9 point plan and believe that It should be published in it’s interity in every newspaper of stature in the USA.
It should be published on every web site maintained by any third party that has a web site.
Jack Gargan used his own money to publish a Throw all rascalls out and asked for donotions to publish in even more newspapers.
If we all band together on this, and I think we can all agree on this one thing, We can make it happen.
I’m willing to start the ball rolling by publishing the 9 point plan on our web site.
What say ye from all other third partys and anyone else that maintains a web site.
Let’s use the web to spread the word and if enough donations come in, we can then begin publishing in all the newspapers.
We are not lazy and the web is free.
Roy Downing
Wwebmaster for the American Reform Party
www.AmericanReform.org

Many important issues exist, but ONE core change must take place first.

Voters must first identify the fundamental PROBLEM,
and agree upon the SOLUTION.

A simple message is required.
A simple statement of the PROBLEM ,
A simple statement of the SOLUTION , and
A simple statement of the BENEFITs .

PROBLEM: Laziness, which breeds greed and corruption;
government is arrogant and irresponsible,
wants to meddle and control everything, and
be accountable for nothing, abuses tax payers (e.g.
pork-barrel spending, waste, bribery, unfair taxation,
etc.), is guilty of legal plunder, and lacks transparency,
etc., (the list is too long to include in entirety);
SOLUTION: Vote out ALL incumbents,
NO exceptions,
EVERY election,
UNTIL things drastically improve.
BENEFITS: see BENEFITS

After the problem is identified, and a solution is implemented,
many other subsequent improvements will naturally follow.

Always, voters should always still attempt to find honest candidates to
place on ALL ballots for ALL elections (and preferably, NOT previous candidates
that have already been in office once and/or already have a track-record of
abusing tax payers).

Some will argue that this one simple idea can not work.
But, this idea can work, because it is simple, and
one of the key points is that FORCE is required to make politicians reform.
Voters must make this happen, because politicians will NOT do it themselves.

Voters must realize that the fundamental problem exists in ALL political parties.
It seems not to matter who they vote for, because too many politicians,
soon after being elected, succumb to greed and corruption rooted in laziness.
Voters must realize that any other approach may be too complicated, and
if it is too complicated, it will fail. Being too quick to dismiss this ONE simple
solution may very well be dismissing ONE (maybe the last; short of revolution)
potential solution to reform a corrupt government.

So, we first need to determine, and agree upon what the fundamental problem is.
The fundamental problem is laziness, which breeds greed and corruption.
It is human nature to be lazy, but immoral to surrender to it.
Why is it human nature to be lazy?
Because the opposite of laziness is work, and work is painful.
So, some people search for ways to plunder the fruits of others’ labor.
Some people succumb to greed and corruption, especially
when many temptations exist. As time goes by, some politicians
eventually find ways to pervert the laws to legalize plunder.
When does the plunder end ? When do people choose to do the right thing ?
Only when plunder is more painful than working for a living.

Now that the fundamental problem has been identified,
voters need a simple solution.
This one simple idea gives the voters that solution,
and the FORCE required to make it happen.

WHEN DOES IT END? When is it OK for voters to vote for incumbents ?
Eventually, politicians will get the message (e.g. after 8 or 12 years; maybe longer).
Eventually, when government has implemented the requested 9 reform changes
(above) and when things have improved drastically, ONLY then, voters will have
the means (transparency) to quickly identify and vote out ONLY the politicians
that have been irresponsible (hopefully, because fellow politicians have also
identified the irresponsible politicians to the voters).

The Voters must realize that they are ultimately responsible.
If one or more political parties would champion this one simple idea,
they may get more support than ever before.
Perhaps, only something as simple as this one simple idea will resonate with voters ?

David and kctim

Your debate is about nothing. It is nearly impossible that any honest recount will give Ohio to Kerry. 130,000 votes are a lot. Ohio has one of the best-run election systems in the nation and lawyers and experts from all side closely watched it. Mathematically, it would take nearly a million �new� votes with an amazing 60% for Kerry to change the outcome. If Ohio, with its excellent system and educated population, can misplace that many votes, we can have no faith in democracy anywhere in the world and we have to rethink our 200 + year love affair with the whole concept. That is how silly this whole thing has become.

Fortunately, this is not going to happen. The conspiracy theorists will rage like thousands of little King Lears with similar impotence.

Jay wrote:
“Also, If Kerry were to overturn Ohio and gain electoral majority, he would win the Electoral vote and lose the popular vote a la Bush 2000! Do we really want this?”

Are you kidding? Yes! Whoever actually won the election should be the president. The will of the people, rather than fraudulent votes and rigged voting machines, should always be the determining factor.

Personally, when I look at the damage this president has done to the country and to our reputation around the world - with the economy and the deficit, with an unnecessary war that was poorly planned, with intentionally breaking the Geneva Conventions, with a lack of diplomacy world wide, with the Patriot Acts unconstitutional provisions, with environmental abuse and neglect - we should at least make sure that the people actually decided that it was a good idea to keep this man in office.

“Also, should Bush contest Pennsylvania? After all the margin for Kerry in PA is less than the margin for Bush in Ohio. Believe me, it wouldn’t take much to uncover voter fraud in heavily Democratic Philly!”

Wherever it appears that voting fraud and stealing occurred there should be investigation, and if needed, bi-partisan committees hand-recounting ballots and teams of bi-partisan computer professionals examining gems servers and opti-scan tallying machines for accuracy.

There’s some voter fraud on both sides, which will probably almost balance-out evenly.

However, I would like to see the defrauders punished. But, that probably won’t ever happen.

Then, I’d like to see biometric identification used to reduce (perhaps eliminate) voter fraud, and give voters a way to review and verify their votes online.

What if Congress had an incentive to police their own ranks? That will only happen if we
treat Congress as one entity. The military
uses this technique effectively:
punish the entire squad or platoon for the
transgression of one person, which leads to the
other members to apply pressure on the
transgressor to reform.

But, of course, is there any hope for reform,
without ever realizing the core problem,
the core solution, and the many benefits ?

Daniel:
“OK, so there was voter fraud, and
it is wrong, which ever side is doing it (both sides of course).
Is there enough to overturn the election ? I doubt it.”

So we should allow fraud and vote stealing as long as it appears that it won’t overturn an election? I think thats a crazy idea.

“If there was, it would probably at least appear
on the main nightly news channels.”

Not necessarily. Now that we know that the Bush Administration has taken to using the media as a propaganda machine to report untruths, we should stop trusting anything being reported on TV.

Here is a non-registration link to a LA Times story that you will never hear reported on television:
http://forum.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?act=ST&f=89&t=39815

Jack (M)
I cannot speak for David, but this vote is not about kerry or Bush to me. They are both the same with no differences.
It is only about votes counting, nothing else.

Dems gave cigs and booze to poor people in St. Louis in order to get votes for gore in 2000.
Reps and some of the poor who did say it is true.
Dems say it never happened and come up with every excuse to discount it.
Reps did stuff also and it plays out the same way.
I know fraud occurrs in every election.

E-voting is the culprit. It is unreliable with no paper trail and it is easily compromised.
The outcome of an election can be controlled.

So, Bush? kerry? Who cares. Same type of person.
My issue is with control of the vote and right now, control is not in the peoples hands. It is govt’s.

kctim said “I am amazed that you seem to be arguing that we would be better off allowing a candidate who didn’t rightfully win the votes necessary to take office anyway”

I am amazed that in our democracy of rule of law, you would discard the law regarding the Electoral College to get your man in. Hell, let’s just burn the Constitution and start all over, eh?

If Kerry wins Ohio by one vote, the LAW says if the Electoral College votes go in Kerry’s favor Kerry wins. That is the law. You apparently have no regard for the law on this issue because it would unseat your candidate. Voting fraud occured in Ohio by the very same thinking as yours. “Screw the law, we need to make sure our candidate wins by any means necessary”. That kind of thinking is ruining this nation in oh so many ways….

Adrienne, Adrienne,

Now, there you go again.

Now, where did I ever say voter fraud was OK?
In fact, I said I want them punished.

But, there’s a much bigger issue.
The politicians just love all this petty bickering.
You’ve got to see past all of that to search for a real solution.
One that is simple and has a chance in hell of working.

Vote out ALL incumbents.
NO exceptions.
Repeatedly , EVERY election.
UNTIL things drastically improve.

QUESTION: Why vote out ALL incumbents ? Shouldn’t some be spared ?

ANSWER: ALL incumbents must be voted out, until changes (above) are made that
allow voters to easily identify and vote out ONLY the irresponsible politicians.
Congress must be treated as one entity (unlike now), so that Congress will
have the required incentive to police their own ranks. This is necessary to
force the politicians to have the incentive to apply pressure to their fellow
politicians to reform.

Also, any other approach is too complicated, which will cause it to fail.
The SOLUTION must remain simple, and unconfused.
The military uses this same technique effectively; the entire squad or platoon
is sometimes punished due to the transgression of one individual, which leads
to members of the group to apply pressure on that individual.

And, why should any of them be immune ?
If you play on a baseball team that loses the game,
you lose also, even if you are the best player of both teams.
Should we treat members of Congress any different ?
NO. Not until they provide the voters with the means (transparency) to
easily identify the irresponsible politicians.
So, there is no need to waste any sympathy for any politician.
They, as a team, all, corrupted the system together, and made cleverly
made it difficult for voters to know what is really happening.

So, it is very important that ALL voters vote out ALL incumbents,
until the necessary changes (transparency) are made (i.e. the steps (above)
to make all activity and votes transparent to all voters), that will let voters
and fellow politicians easily identify and vote out ONLY the identified
irresponsible politicians.

That will take time, but voters will know when to ease up, when they finally
see things drastically improving, the many improvements that will naturally
follow this one simple core change, and the country begins to move in a
better direction, making the country more free, fair, and strong.

I think that you guys need to get over the fact that Bush has won in office. If you?re so interested in how horrible Bush and Congress is why don?t you do something about it and stop complaining about it on the Internet.

I would have to agree with you Jack, there is no way to recount all the votes to Ohio. Even though I don’t like Bush too much because he isn’t really that smart on some of his decisions. But you can complain because nothing has happened since he has been in office. Of course we are at war, but since he has been in office no other attacks have happened. And then to get back on the voting, there is nothing you can do about it. Just hope for the next 4 years Bush does something right. But once he is done with hopefully he hasn’t gotten Americans into too much stuff where they cant get out of it with the next president.

Yunk-Da-Funk,

You are more clueless than everyone else.
I voted for Bush, but all of the choices stunk.

The real fundamental problem, regardless of
the president (Bush or Kerry or Nader) still exists.

I don’t really care who won this last
election, since there is a much bigger issue that needs ALL of our attention.

Two more years of Bush? Sounds like a pleasant time to me. People fail to see how horrible of a president Kerry could have potentially been. In a time like this, we need a President with some courage. Kerry would have evacuated all of our troops essentially leaving Iraq in shambles. So what happens in six years when Iraq rebuilds with revenge on the mind? It?s de javu all over again. It would be over something that could have been completely avoided. Bush is in Iraq for justifiable reasons. Suddam Hussein was an irresponsible leader whose thirst for power corrupted him. So he took on the job of getting him out of Iraq. Now, we will turn the country into a democracy and things will be all good.
Jester

UH, David? That wasn’t me that said that.
You posted that statement in response to Jay yesterday.
I was merely suggesting how wrong his statement was to.
There was vote dishonesty when Hayes was elected president also, that was why I mentioned his election.

Daniel said: “You are more clueless than everyone else.”

Daniel, if you wish to retain your comment privileges here at WatchBlog, DO NOT violate our “Critique the Message, Not the Messenger” policy again in this manner. Troll and flame baiting like this belongs on other debates sites that permit it, NOT on this site.

kctim, my apology. Got my authors crossed, Thanks.

OOOOooops,
Yes, indeed, you are correct. I’m sorry.

I RETRACT that statement.
I should have said:
__________________________________________

Yunk-Da-Funk,

Excuse me, Yunk-Da-Funk,
Respectfully, I believe there is a fundamental flaw in the logic of the previous message (not
to imply that there is anything wrong with your
powers of logic).
I voted for Bush, but all of the choices stunk.

The real fundamental problem, regardless of
the president (Bush or Kerry or Nader) still exists.

I don’t really care who won this last
election, since there is a much bigger issue that needs ALL of our attention.

Jack:
“Ohio has one of the best-run election systems in the nation”

Oh certainly, it is so well run that:
It took some people NINE HOURS TO VOTE- BUT ONLY IN DEMOCRATIC PRECINCTS.
Its so well run that TOO FEW VOTING MACHINES WERE SENT TO POLLING PLACES - BUT ONLY IN DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS.
Its so well run that THE OWNER OF DIEBOLD VOTING MACHINES PROMISED TO WIN OHIO FOR BUSH.
Its so well run that OVER A HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO DON’T EVEN EXIST VOTED IN OHIO ON ELECTION DAY.
It really is a model of efficiency that every Ohio Republican can really be proud of.

melissa s:
“I think that you guys need to get over the fact that Bush has won in office.”

The Left moved on after they tried to impeach Clinton for something as stupid as a blowjob. The Left moved on after the unconstitutional Supreme Court decision that put Bush in office and suffered through four years of his horrible decisions even though we knew that the election was rigged. Once again the election was rigged. Its time to take a stand. And too bad if the right doesn’t like it.

“If you?re so interested in how horrible Bush and Congress is why don?t you do something about it and stop complaining about it on the Internet.”

I write and call my representatives all the time. I read my news off the internet because it has become the only place I can find out what is actually happening. I write on the internet because I want to share that news with others who might otherwise miss it. I can also walk and chew gum at the same time.

Ohio�s system is bipartisan and each certifying board by law has two Democrats and two Republicans. Democrats (and Republicans) are permitted to post poll watchers at each polling place.

As I wrote above, I have to thank you for the compliment. Republicans are evidently so much smarter than Democrats that they can pull all this off right under the noses of their Democratic colleagues, even when they have deployed almost as many lawyers as there are voters in the Buckeye state. We few, we happy few, we band of brothers have faced down the Democratic masses and handed them an ignominious defeat while the whole world was watching and nobody except the bloggers even saw it happening.

Adrienne wrote:

The Left moved on after they tried to impeach Clinton for something as stupid as a blowjob. The Left moved on after the unconstitutional Supreme Court decision that put Bush in office and suffered through four years of his horrible decisions even though we knew that the election was rigged. Once again the election was rigged. Its time to take a stand. And too bad if the right doesn’t like it.

Adrienne,

Granted, there was voter fraud, as always,
but do you really think the 2000 and 2004
elections were rigged ?

Would Democrats let Bush win if he really didn’t ?

Don’t you think the voter fraud is about even
in these elections? That’s why it’s not
likely to change the outcome (and that’s not to
say the defrauders should not be punished).

BTW, Clinton was impeached. He sounded just
like a lawyer (which he is by degree) when he
said “it depends on the definition of ‘is’ is”.
But Clinton was allowed to stay in office.
What Clinton was doing was actually a serious
security problem. If you’ve ever had security
clearance, you know why that is. Although, not
as serious as the two time he misplace the
nuclear key-codes.

The real question is, is either party really
that different ? I think a lot of really
good things would naturally follow if we made
a core change in Congress. The president can’t
do that much all by himself. Congress has to
go along. So, the real power is in Congress.
Those 435 people really run things. And, that’s
where the problem is. That’s what need’s fixin’

Jack:
“poll watchers at each polling place.”

What good are poll watchers when machines can be rigged or hacked from an undisclosed location? Or when voting machines don’t make it into the precincts and cause endless lines to form and people to leave rather than vote because they have to go to work? Or when peoples names don’t appear on voter lists so that they are forced to fill out provisional ballots which can later be disqualified for flimsy reasons?

“Republicans are evidently so much smarter than Democrats
that they can pull all this off right under the noses of their Democratic colleagues,”

More devious, I’d say. But after 2000 well, in the words of our Misleader in Chief: “Fool me once — shame on… uh… shame on you. You fool me… you can’t get fooled again.”

“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers have faced down the Democratic masses and handed them an ignominious defeat while the whole world was watching”

Looks like it to me. But I’m hoping there is still a chance that justice will prevail in America, and that the certification in Ohio can be thrown out after a thorough investigation and recount.

Give it up Daniel.
If Bush was a Dem, every dem on here would be defending him down to the last thing he has done wrong.
Just as they did with clinton.
Substitute the name Bush with gore and both sides would change their opinions on everything that is going on today.
It is no longer about principles or the people.
It’s only about making sure your party is in power.
AT ALL COSTS!!!

Daniel:
“Granted, there was voter fraud, as always,
but do you really think the 2000 and 2004
elections were rigged ?”

Yes, I do. In 2000 Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush rigged the vote in Florida. If you want to know exactly why I feel this is true, read a book by Greg Pallast called “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy”. It was painstakingly researched and will give you the complete picture of how they managed to do what they did.
In this election in Ohio, and in Florida and several other states too, most notably the swing states, there is far too much evidence to the contrary to suggest that this election was fair and the vote totals accurate.

“Would Democrats let Bush win if he really didn’t ?”

It was the Supreme Court that decided it, rather than the People. And that was completely unprecedented and unconstitutional. I think Democrats thought that what happened could never happen again - but not only did it happen again, it was done on a much larger scale.

Absolutely Kctim- that they cant see their own partisanship is amazing. Can you imagine the credit Gore would have gotten if he had passed prescription drug coverage that the AARP supported? I bet we wouldnt have heard one word of “oh, its a big give away to drug companies.”

Its actually very frustrating- I see Bush giving away money to all of these socialist programs- increasing funding for things I believe should be abolished. He has basically given up the fight for small government, the LEFT HAS WON on these issues. And instead of being happy, the dems is crying how Bush is not “compassionate” enough. My favorite example of this is when John kerry said that the 44% increase in the unconstitutional department of eduction was not big enough and that is why Bush was cheating our children!

We have one party of big government give aways, and one party of bigger government give aways. And somethign I cant tell which is which except by the fact that one side is crying that the give aways are big enough and the other side is mouthing the platitudes of small government…

kctim,

It is no longer about principles or the people.
It’s only about making sure your party is in power.
AT ALL COSTS!!!

Yeah, you may be right, with some people anyway.
The thing is, ALL of us should take a dim view of ALL politicians.
Some are not too bad, but too many are varying
degrees of master-parasites. And lettin’ some of these
scum loose in Congress is like lettin’ a kid loose in the candy store.
Record level spending, and pork-barrel is evidence of that.

But the main most important point that I wish
all people would stop for a moment to consider
is that the problem is NOT just the president.
AND , it is NOT just the party.

It is ALL politicians. It is ALL of them.

That’s the problem.

People in this country are wasting a huge amount of
time and money UNNECESSARILY .

And the politicians love all of this petty bickering.
They love to pit this against that, cloud the issues,
obscure the facts, stir it up and make it stink, and
all the while distract us ALL from what they’re doing.

That is why they are called MASTER parasites.
They are very very good at it.

The corruption, in some areas, is breaking
setting new records. Lots of bribes and pork and
deals being cut at the tax payers expense.
Some people call it wealth-redistribution, but
it is theft.

Maybe, ONE day , we will ALL wake up, see things the way they really are
and take this ONE Simple step , To Provide the
ONE Thing Required , To Ensure Your
ONE Vote Counts , To FORCE
Government To Be Accountable:

Vote out ALL incumbents.
NO exceptions.
Repeatedly , EVERY election.
UNTIL things drastically improve.

Misha, the Democratic plan was “pay as you go” and would have allowed competitive bidding for Rx’s, two items woefully lacking from the Presidents and GOP’s plan. The GOP plan is costing taxpayers more than the Democratic plan would have.

As for the rest of your comment to kctim, I couldn’t agree more.

Misha,

We have one party of big government give aways, and one party of bigger government give aways. And somethign I cant tell which is which except by the fact that one side is crying that the give aways are big enough and the other side is mouthing the platitudes of small government…

The politicians love these huge entitlement
give-ways. They find a way into the
money stream, fill their pockets, and watch
the rest of us squabble over the crumbs, and no
one is every happy with the give aways, because
it is ususally unfair, or it is mismanaged (like
Social Security).

It’s a waste of time to expect government to
operate correctly when it is broken.

Until government is fixed, is there any reason to
expect it to do anything correctly ?

It’s like a car that has a flat tire.
We’re all stranded until we fix the flat,
but we’re all wasting our time polishing the hubcabs.

I think I’m beginning to see why voters will
NEVER unite to at least do the ONE thing that
is within their power to do.

Perhaps we deserve the government we’ve got.
After all, we are all responsible.
We are all accountable.
So we getting what we deserve.

What if we changed the voting system so that
we all get to vote on issues ?

The House could still prepare the bills,
and we, the people would vote on them once per
day, or week, or month. We could vote at ATMs.
They are everywhere.

Perhaps that would wrestle some power away from
Congress. But, Congress would probably never
let that happen to begin with. Because the
people will never FORCE it to happen, even though
they could if they weren’t distracted with
petty bickering and petty partisan squabbling.

The people are powerless to stop the 435
kids (Congress) loose in the candy store (D.C.).

It’s like the Scots in the movie Braveheart.
They couldn’t curb their sickening petty
bickering long enough to do one important thing
within their power to make them free and powerful.

Yeah, so we are getting what we deserve.
We let them do it. We don’t have to let them,
but we keep letting them do it to us.

Because, we’d all rather squabble and bicker over
minutia, ignore the real problem, and whine and whine and whine.

Like I said, I think I’m starting to see the
problem. Perhaps, we don’t deserve any better.

Jay-
There’s one problem with that assertion that Kennedy won by Daley’s voter fraud: Kennedy already had the Electoral votes to win regardless of whether he took Illinois.

Did you know that John F. Kennedy had the secret service bring hookers and prostitutes to his hotel room ? The secret service and the news kept the whole thing a big secret. And, then there was the Marilyn Monroe scandal. And some people say he was a great president ? What Clinton did paled in comparison. But, it perhaps reveals one encouraging trend…that people expect better behaviour now, than then.

Daniel, I wanted to debate your “kick out all the bums” battle cry but it occurred to me that my disagreement stems from a core difference between our ideologies, and so it would get nobody anywhere. Sometimes it’s just not possible to “critique the message” when “the message” is a tape looped fiery speech from the political extremists on Planet Zarvox. The website you keep linking to sounds more like some kind of foaming-at-the-mouth right-wing militia manifesto than a political treatise. Perhaps if you keep spamming the discussion, though, you will eventually snap us out of our corruption-loving, big-government-adoring trance. In the meantime, watch out for government thugs, who I hear actively monitor these boards. There’s one breaking into your window right now, on a mission to steal the coins in your daughter’s piggy bank to use for lower-class entitlement programs…

That’s funny, but I don’t think its as bad as you say. It states the real problem.
Both voters and politicians.

Kick the bums out makes people feel happy but isn�t very effective.

You might have a low opinion of politicians, but most are competent and honest. It is hard work. We all watch too many movies where the janitor wanders into the president�s office and then does a better job because of his simple truths. This only happens in movies.

It takes a long time to learn most jobs. Those that have a lot of human interactions and deal with complicated interests are the hardest to learn. Most politicians are not �statesmen� but you can’t develop any statesmen at all in two or six years.

Let me give you an example � Teddy Kennedy. I don�t like Teddy Kennedy and I don�t agree with him very often, but his years in the Senate have made him a statesman. He has lots of failing, but he has what he considers the interests of the country at heart. He developed into this character from the punk-ass rich kid at Chappaquiddick. It is an amazing thing. Other statesmen include Joe Biden, Alan Simpson, Sam Nunn, Warren Rudman, Lee Hamilton and (my favorite) the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan. All of these guys were big asses in many ways. They developed in a life of public service. If you had sent them home after one term, you would have nothing. Think of Teddy Kennedy after his first term.

There are a few good politicians.
I liked a few, but I’m not putting any of them on a pedestal.
But most are not so good. Some are quite bad.
And, their handy work is everywhere to prove it.

Politicians are almost all guilty of
pork-barrel, mismanaging Social Security
(legal plunder), being influenced by money,
petty partisan politics, obstructionism,
growing government and programs, etc.

But, the politicians are not entirely to blame.

Voters are ALSO to blame for not holding them
accountable. Because you can put almost any
person in that situation, and they can’t resist
the temptations. The pork-barrel, bribery,
mismanagement, and plunder are ample proof (not
to mention some of the obscene acts some are
guilty of also).

And, Teddy Kennedy should be in jail.
He didn’t even tell anyone what happened at
Chappaquiddick 19-Jul-1969 until the next day.

Tell that crap about Ted Kennedy being a good
statesmen to Betty Jo Kopechne’s family.
Betty Jo survived for two long hours trapped in
a submerged car that Ted Kennedy drove off a
bridge while driving drunk.
She could have been saved had Ted Kennedy told
someone about it. But, no, that sorry piece of
crap let Betty Jo die. He was too drunk and too
cowardly to dive into the water to save
her. And he was never punished for those crimes.
Not to mention the crime of concealing it until
the next day (after he sobered up some).
Instead, people of Massachusetts continue to vote
him into office every year. That’s very revealing
about the people in that state.

The fact is, government is a magnet for
master-parasites such as Ted Kennedy (who is
drunk most of the time).
Ted Kennedy is a great statesmen ?
That’s a laugh.

But, not all politicians sink to his level.
Some are just trapped in a corrupt system.
Voters have a way to fix it. And, voters must
view Congress as one entity. Like a team.

The need to vote out all incumbents is necessary
because:
(1) it creates the incentive for politicians to
begin to police their own ranks.
(2) anything else is too complicated.
(3) Congress should be treated as one entity or
team (for a while, until things improve).
Consider a baseball team that loses the game.
Even the best player on that team loses too
even if he/she is the best player of both teams.
(4) Otherwise, too many scum, like Ted Kennedy
continue to get away with it, as long as he
keeps bringin’ home the pork, at the expense of
the other tax payers in other states.

But, the people of South Dakota finally wised up
and booted Tom Daschle out of office. He was a
master-parasite-obstructionist. And the people
of Massachusetts should vote out Ted Kennedy,
who should be in jail now for man-slaughter.

But, perhaps this one idea makes too much sense, and perhaps the
voters like to whine and complain. So, perhaps voters deserve what they’ve got, and already
have what they want.

By the way, I’m not advocating voting out ALL incumbents forever;
only for as long as it takes to make some core changes,
and things begin to improve (8 to 12 years, maybe more).

Such as one item per bill, transparency so voters can tell what’s going on,
no more voting themselves raises, no more pardons
to felons, no more plundering Social Security,
no more huge entitlement programs, etc.

Jack M and Daniel, gentlemen, look, the judicial system is breaking down, the educational system is becoming second rate in far too many states, the fiscal system is definitely caving in under its own weight, jobs are a bit more iffy, but if current trends continue we will have two America’s which Kerry spoke of, those with secure incomes, and those without.

Kicking incumbents out will serve the purpose of teaching the freshman what will happen to them if they don’t put the country first, their state, second, their constituents third, their parties fourth, and their careers last with regard to their voting priorities. Failure will see the U.S. become another amongst many in a long historical line of fallen great nations and empires, very likely replaced in magnitude by China. There really is no other solution, because it is politicians voting priorities which are failing the nation.

One thing I respect about China is the politburo’s occasional capabilitiy to put the nation ahead of all other considerations as with their dam project. If special interests and lobbyists and politicians existed in China the way they do here, their monumental dam project and the decades of prosperity it is bringing to 100’s of millions of Chinese would never have happened.

China has a very long way to go to become respected and followed nation in the world, if they ever get there, but, the U.S. really should be focusing on what is taking place with the international relations with China. China is making many national friends in world, while we are losing them. This is not a good scenario.

The worse if their economic power continues to grow at even half the rate it has over the last 15 years and ours continues to be exported.

Our nation needs to be the first priority for federal politicians and the only way that will happen with regard to their voting behavior is by going anti-incumbent and getting freshman in who have learned the voters lesson well. It is all up to the voters! Which is why I am not very optimistic.

China is making many national friends in world, while we are losing them. This is not a good scenario.

Wow. That’s uncanny. I just blogged about that,

[T]he Chinese are securing their own backyard in the way the United States secured Latin and Central America in the early 19th century under the Monroe Doctrine…

At the summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations here, rather incongruously held in the poorest of the region’s capitals, [Chinese Prime Minister] Wen [Jaibao] did not explicitly say that the United States was not welcome in the East Asian community.

But that was the implicit message.

David R. Remer wrote:

…..Kicking incumbents out will serve the purpose of teaching the freshman what will happen to them if they don’t put the country first, their state, second, their constituents third, their parties fourth, and their careers last with regard to their voting priorities……. There really is no other solution, because it is politicians voting priorities which are failing the nation……….It is all up to the voters! Which is why I am not very optimistic.

David,
While we disagree on some issues, it is encouraging when some also
believe there may be “no other solution”.
The chairman of the “American Reform Party”
and a handful of other people have said
they wanted this message posted everywhere
possible. That’s encouraging.

And there are many BENEFITs of treating Congress as one entity:
(1) It’s also a peaceful approach; much preferred to oppression, followed by revolution or civil war (which could happen; history repeats itself).
(2) It’s the one thing (our votes) already existing within the current voting system that may work.
(3) It will give politicians an incentive to police their own ranks; put pressure on the irresponsible politicians to reform also.
(4) It will produce the transparency that is required to discourage greed and corruption. After all, when the cat is away, the mice will play. Congress is like a bunch of kids loose in candy store…the pork and corruption proves it.

Congress and other elected officials must ALL be treated as a team; as one entity.
For example, If you play on a baseball team that loses the game,
you lose also, even if you are the best player of both teams.
Should we treat members of Congress any different ? NO.
Not until they provide the voters with the means (transparency)
to easily identify the irresponsible politicians.
They, as a team, all, corrupted the system together, and cleverly
made it difficult for voters to know what is really happening.

WHEN DOES IT END? When is it OK for voters to vote for incumbents ?
Eventually, politicians will get the message (e.g. after 8 or 12 years;
maybe longer). Eventually, when government has implemented the
necessary reforms, and when things have improved drastically,
ONLY then, voters will have the means (transparency) to quickly and
easily identify and vote out ONLY the irresponsible politicians (and
hopefully, fellow politicians have also identified the irresponsible politicians,
now that they have an incentive to police their own ranks).

However, my fear is that voters will never unite.
Voters will never unite as long as too many refuse to see Congress as one entity or team.
Voters may be too brain-washed and too fond of the petty partisan bickering,
and petty minutia distracting them from the real problem.

AP and David

Re China

It should be no surprise that China is reclaiming its regional position. The anomaly was that for more than 100 years a country like that was marginalized in its own backyard. It is very arrogant, however, to read too much �American� into this. It is like the �who lost China� question of the 1950s. Is (was) China ours to loose? We can only strive to maintain good relations.

Our relations with China are better now than they have been any time in recent history. That doesn�t mean there aren�t stresses, but consider the situation at the end of the Clinton term, and the success is glaring. We also enjoy exceptionally good relations with Japan. Since Japan and China are having their own share of trouble, that is another success.

At some point in the not to distance future it looks like China will become the equal of the U.S., and they might surpass us. I prefer to wait on writing the American obituary, however, having lived through the predictions of European and Japanese hegemony.

Before everyone jumps for joy, however, you might consider what that will mean. China�s human rights record is not something to be emulated. It looks like they have abandoned the Maoist structures for good, but it is sobering to remember that the Cultural Revolution cost about almost 50 million lives, making it the record holder for civilian deaths by one country. Just because most of these people died of starvation and petty violence instead of in camps doesn�t make it more encouraging. You still see posters of Mao in China. It is a lot like finding Hitler portraits in Austria. We just don�t interpret it that way.

David, you mention the gorges dam project. It is probably a good project from the point of view of energy and economy, but very disruptive of the human and ecological communities in the region. The reason we can’t do something like that in the U.S. is that we have �too much� democracy. Imagine damming the Colorado River to flood the Grand Canyon and you have a perspective on this. Would it produce a lot of power, sure, but I am not sure we would want to do it. Actually, it is more disruptive than damming the Grand Canyon. Very few people live near the Grand Canyon. The Seven Gorges project will displace millions.

So before you all hail the ascendancy of the Middle Kingdom, consider what you are gaining and what you are losing.

Jack M., the topic of China was not to hail China, but, to hilight the U.S.’s desperate need to address long term problems that require long-term solutions. China can and is investing in long term solutions to immensely complex and protracted problems. We are failing in that regard on some fronts, the prison population and fiscal irresponsibility being two signs of that. It is up to us to demonstrate that democracy has the ability to address long term problems requiring long term investments in solutions. If we can’t, China will overtake us in very many ways.

The problem of population control to ease and eventually perhaps rid a nation of the major problems that population exceeding resource capacity issues cause, is a prime example of how China is addressing an issue which we are exacerbating. They are reducing population growth, our model dictates that we increase ours despite the inherent long term and likely intractable problems that will cause.

David

David

I don�t think China is doing quite as well as you do.

The impressive economic growth comes off a very low base. The U.S. adds more in absolute terms to its economy every year than China does. As countries develop, their growth rates tend to level off.

Don�t get me wrong. I admire Chinese achievements, but much of that comes at real expense to the environment and society. Anyone who complains about pollution in America should spend a short time in China. This means that the Chinese growth rates are probably unsustainable. Growth will slow as the country becomes rich enough that it thinks it can afford a better environment.

Finally, the population. Population growth in the worldwide sense is no longer a problem. Estimates of population growth have been consistently revised downward since the population bomb fanaticism of the 1960s. In many parts of the world, falling populations will be the problem of the next decades. Even the U.S. population continues to grow only because on immigration. The natural increase rate for native (born) Americans is slightly negative (although not as bad as Europe). China may have opened a Pandora�s box with its one child policy and employed draconian methods to overshoot its target.

By world and historical standards, the U.S. is very well managed overall. Last year, we were rated the most competitive country in the world in its annual list by IMD � a EUROPEAN not American rater. China was number 12. Read an article about it from China at http://www.bjreview.com.cn/200405/Business-200405(A).htm.

Jack M., you perfectly hilight the thinking endemic in western thought which prevents addressing long term problems. You measure success and failure on the basis of economics in the narrow definition of the term. I was talking in the broad definition - all demand - resource issues, psychological, sociological, legal, educational, political, as well as environmental.

Precisely because the U.S. bases its population growth policy on the narrow definition of economics, we continue to see the declining population as a threat. But, if one models the impact of population numbers on the broad definition economics, real per capita wealth can only increase with reduced population.

China’s greatest threat is desperation experienced by too many of its people. Its history teaches that population segments which experience desperation equals revolution. Avoiding another revolution is the politburo’s contract with its people. And its people’s contract with the politburo.

National economics in the broad definition depends upon historical and cultural experience, of course. But, in the U.S., while there is more wealth per capita than most nations in the world, there are a growing number of deprivations as well, psychological, sociological, and political. These are creating dramatic rises in incidents of depression, suicide, and violence by historical standards. Lack of space, quiet, pastoral time, socialization, quality free time with family and friends outside the work environment, etc, are all contributing to that rise in depression, suicide, and violence.

I don’t have any measure, and it would be difficult to measure the quality of life in China with such a vast array of peoples, sub-cultures, and historical and cultural backgrounds, but, it is safe to say that the politburo and its somewhat decentralized local government structures, have so far avoided revolution for the last 40 some years while increasing the per capita wealth as well as far greater distribution of that wealth among its people. China still has hamlets and villages which have never seen money, but, they are disappearing fast. And with the advent of the introduction of money and the demise of the barter system in those hamlets and villages, perceived increase of consumer wealth and choice is on the rise.

I still find it awesome that one federal government is capable of surviving the tensions inherent in a population of 1.3 billion people, 4 times the number of people in the United States. That is amazing to me. And I cannot conceive how our government could possibly hope to survive revolution over such a vast population given the loss of efficiencies and waste inherent in our bureaucratic government with 1/4 that population. But, then, governments are to a large extent a product of history, culture, and character of its people, and so, comparisons between the U.S. and China are all but impossible except on purely objective and measurable criteria like per capita wealth or census, which fail to measure the myriad of other factors that go into an equation of quality of life.

David

I really can’t believe that we are comparing China favorably to the U.S. Chinese bureaucracies are corrupt beyond anything even in New Jersey. The air on a good day is like Gary, Indiana on a bad one. Large areas of the Chinese west have been turning into deserts. We literally make a federal case about the destruction of short grass prairies in the great basin. These would be success stories in Xingjian. What about the oppression of Tibetans or Uigurs? . You are right, I don�t know how the U.S. would deal with a population as large, but I am convinced that the Chinese system, transplanted to the U.S. would make a hash of N. America.

It is one thing to be critical of the U.S. We should all do that in order to improve. It is also logical to copy best practices from other places. But we do have to understand that we are speaking figuratively and comparing American reality to American ideals. Compared with most other places, the U.S. is doing great. I am willing to cut China some slack because of their tough circumstances. RELATIVELY speaking they are also doing great, and I have long admired the progress they have made, but in the real world comparison this is not the case. The U.S. becoming like China is a nightmare scenario.

My sister in law just adopted a baby from China, a little girl abandoned because she was a little girl. She lived in conditions of absolute poverty. What we Americans call poverty would be well past middle class in China. That is why people from China cross the ocean to work in horrible conditions in the U.S. They are better off than back home even in the conditions we find appalling.

Yet another reason for me to believe my rightwing-imposed tinfoil chapeau is an unwarranted fashion accessory…

Democratic Representative John Conyers, of Michigan, ranking Minority member of the House Judiciary Committee will be holding a hearing on al