Third Party & Independents: Archives

How do you expect ‘We the People’ to ask the reps to cut the spending when it is ‘We the People’ who want our reps to bring home the bacon?

As for the Sunnis.

Those people over their hate the Western World and any religion that is not Muslim, yet they can’t even get along with each other when it comes to variations of their own religion.
The first thing those people have to do is get rid of their clerics that preach hate toward others that are not just like them, even in the Muslim societies.
If the Sunnis do not join in and become part of the election process they will soon find out that the other 80% of the country will not put up with them and their violence. They will end up dead or in prison.
Even the radical clerics of the Sunnis will come to realize that.
If they want more death, then so be it.

“Those people over their hate the Western World…”

If my family fell victim to United States war crimes, I would hate the Western World too. You hate the Middle Estern world, hypocrite.

Often, it’s not We who benefit from the pork, but the corporate special interests. As for the Sunnis..

The first thing those people have to do is get rid of their clerics that preach hate toward others that are not just like them, even in the Muslim societies.

So you’ll agree that the first thing we have to do is get rid of anyone who preaches hate in America.. Klan members, neo-Nazis, Rush Limbaugh.. anyone who preaches hate toward others that are not just like them. The first thing we have to do is pack those intolerant hateful scum off to Cuba where they belong.

Let’s gather on Democracy Plaza and celebrate this glorious victory for the Homeland! Fallujah has been liberated!

Will the crowds welcome out troops with thrown flowers and parades?

What! No roses? No parades? “If they want more death, so be it.” Democracy is ‘hard work.’ Amen.

I don’t want to be over optimistic,
but worse, don’t want to be too pessimistic.

But, I believe, and evidence supports the belief, that
the terrorists are a minority whose base is shrinking daily.

The world has improved bit-by-bit as the centuries slowly pass.

Once, slavery was acceptable worldwide.
Now, slavery is denounced worldwide.

Once, pillaging and plunder was acceptable worldwide.
Now, it is denounced worldwide.

Once, inalienable human rights were meaningless.
Now, inalienable human rights are not meaningless.

Once, dictators attempted to control enough power to destroy the world.
Now, the world denounces dictators that attempt to destroy the world.
Now, the world denounces those that violate the rights of others.

Once, is was simply the survival of the strongest and the fittest.
Now, it’s the survival of human-kind, as a whole.

The world, though imperfect, is a better place now than it once was.
The world strives to protect human rights, and denounces the violators of human rights.

Even China, and other countries with dictators, in this global economy,
are being forced to recognize the value and force of free markets,
and inalienable human rights. Students in China, not so long ago,
sacrificed their lives to fight for basic inalienable human rights.
Their efforts did not go unnoticed.

Almost all humans know and value the fundamental principles of democracy.
To fail to protect the rights of one citizen means that none of our rights will be protected.

Most democracies understand this.

The terrorists don’t have the faintest clue.
The terrorists forfeit all inalienable human rights, and force us to treat
them like the rabid mad dogs they are….for which there is no cure….you can only
simply put them out of their misery….before they can harm anyone else.

The United States, coalition troops, and the Iraqi military
and Iraqi police have lost many good, peace loving
people who despise these rabid mad dog terrorists.
We should never disgrace their struggle by giving in to the
evil terrorists. Not ever. We should honor their supreme sacrifice by
continuing the honorable struggle to fight for the rights of all
humans’ inalienable rights. We all have the right to do ANYTHING
we choose, provided we don’t violate the rights of others.

The U.S., coalition troops, and Iraqi troops, and Iraqi police deserve
our utmost respect for the difficult battle they struggle to win….
to simply win the rights they should all have, but rights that
some would take from them for no good reason.

The good people simply fight for the simple right to exist, flourish,
and harm no one else…..the inalienable humans rights that many of us
take for granted. It’s a sad reminder. Freedom is not free….
there seems to always lurk those that would try to take our freedom away from us.
But, we can not ever afford to let the terrorists prevail, because if
they ever gain a foothold, we are doomed to allow history to repeat itself
again, and again, and again. We can not let evil to exist anywhere, unless
we want history to repeat itself again. We must all recognize that the
rights of all is as important as the rights of one. We must all recognize the
common objective to rid the world of those that would take away our freedoms.
To allow one of us to be violated is to allow us all to be violated.

I believe that most people understand this,
and the world is ever slowly evolving into a better world,
for our children and their children…………….… . . . . . . .
How can we believe otherwise ?

???

Daniel,
Very eloquent. Definite points for style.

Just one little problem with the content. Are you sure all those people we’re killing in Iraq are terrorists?

We- the US military- killed somewhere between 25,000 - 50,000 Iraqi troops in the initial phase. Were they terrorists? At least, at least 10,000 innocent civilians, and perhaps as many as 100,000 have died at our hands.
Were they terrorists?

When people fled Fallujah by trying to swim across the Euphrates, US troops shot everyone who took to the water. An AP photographer claimed to watch a family of five get sent to the bottom by US snipers. Well, there are no pictures, are there? And maybe the Dad was a terrorist, right?

There is some remarkable film of Fallujah in ruins. Also film of a marine adminstering a coup de grace to a wounded Iraqi. “Dead now.”

Saddam Hussein was a madman for killing innocents and torturing people. We haven’t killed as many- it’s close, but I don’t think we’re quite there; and like Tommy Franks said, when it comes to killing Iraqis, “We don’t count.” We don’t torture nearly as many people as the Baathists. So where does Saddam Hussein rank on a scale of madness? And where do we rank?

We did capture the house where terrorists beheaded innocent victims. What happened to the terrorists?

The terrorists we need to hunt are Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida.

I like the fundamental optimism of your post and its progressive mindset. I’m sure we’re in agreement about terrorists. But consider our goal, and what’s actually happening in Iraq.

Bot-marketing virus begone!

Daniel,

“Even China….”

I am just curious. How much you know about China and the people in China. Do you know what they want? Do you speak Chinese? In case of an invasion, exactly those students, who fighted 15 years ago, will be the ones who stand up first and reject American bombs. Now who do you think those resistants in Falluja are? Many of them are the ones who loved their land and wanted a better system, long before the Americans were there. You might be able to kill them all; but who are the Americans to count on to rebuild the country.

One thing bothered me. My foreign friends here call me ‘Daniel’.

En News,
I don’t hate the Middle East.
I do not appreciate people taking a few words of what I say and think they know how I feel. It doesn’t mean I hate you.

Josh,
I was not preaching hate. Are you?
Tolerance. If it can’t begin with the leaders of a mosque, where is it supposed to begin? With a cruel dictator?

Phx8,
Many civilians have died over there in Iraq. Why is it when deaths are mentioned it is the ones that were caused by the U.S.? Are you condoning death by the hands of the people who are trying to keep Iraq from being free to vote? Is it okay that they kill Iraqis because they are from that region?

“There is some remarkable film of Fallujah in ruins. Also film of a marine adminstering a coup de grace to a wounded Iraqi. “Dead now.” “

Why don’t you go fight in a war and see how you react? I suppose you would not make a single mistake, not saying he did, because we don’t know. I suppose you think OJ and Scott are innocent too?? It was probably Nicole and Lacy’s own faults their dead, if they had just done what those men told them to do…. same with the one whose husband put her in a dumpster in Colorado.
The whole story is not out, don’t convict without the facts!
Story has it that Kerry shot and killed a wounded soldier and he ran for President! He won’t release his own records and my guess is because that’s in there. So don’t give me that crap about how horrible that Marine is.

Another one who thinks this will all end with the capture of UBL.

But, I believe, and evidence supports the belief, that the terrorists are a minority whose base is shrinking daily.

What evidence? Everything I’ve seen points to a growing global Islamic insurgency.

al Qaeda has been rebuilt and reorganized, and is hitting targets in Spain, Egypt, Russia, and Indonesia - and now Thailand. I’d love to see your source for that statement.

Hey David, are you actually calling on us to write our representatives and urge them to block raising the debt limit? I think that’s a great idea.

=========================================
American Pundit,
_____
You wrote: What evidence? Everything I’ve seen points to a growing global Islamic insurgency.
_____

“Growing” does NOT equal “Majority”.
And the fact is, they are NOT growing.
Terrorists, worldwide, are being arrested or killed.

So, my statement is still true. “Terrorists are NOT a majority in the world”.
The terrorists are severely outnumbered by people that
reject terrorism and oppression, and love freedom and justice.
If the terrorists were the majority in the world, we would be
fighting World War 3, chaos would prevail
everywhere, no one would be safe anywhere, there would be total
anarchy, and WE would NOT be having this discussion.

We all have a duty, everyone, to rid the world of terrorists.
To hope for anything less is defeatist and pacifist and cowardly.
The terrorists would like that, but that’s not going to happen.
Good people outnumber the terrorists, and good people
have the will to survive and a belief in justice, and good people
are stronger than the terrorists’ will to destroy. The terrorists will lose.
And to fear that fighting terrorists will create more terrorists is illogical.
To allege that the U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops are the problem is illogical.
People that choose to be terrorists, are cowards, criminals,
and low-life infestations that must be exterminated.
The terrorists blow up and murder innocent people.
They hide in mosques, schools, and hospitals,
and amongst civilians, endangering civilians.
These dead-enders fighting U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops,
and Iraqi police are NOT Iraqis attempting to protect
their country from an evil invader. They are terrorists, that have
no tolerance, an respect for others, and haven’t yet discovered
that theirs’ and Saddam’s time is over….they won’t be tolerated
anymore. The majority of people in Fallujah ALSO want to
be rid of the terrorist plague. To persistently portray the
U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops as the aggressors and violators
flys in the face of the facts and the truth.

So, what is the motive of the U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops ?
Steal the oil ? No. That is not and will not happen.
Kill for the fun of it ? No. Only terrorists kill for fun.
Steal, rape, pillage and plunder ? No.

Generally, if a majority of these claims were true,
the media would be all over it, and it would be all over the news.
The fact is, many of the slightest injustices are publicized,
and most people do not condone it. A U.S. marine is currently
under investigation for shooting an unarmed Iraqi, which is a
war crime. The difference here between the terrorists and
the U.S. Marines is that the Marine will be punished if he is guilty
of a war crime. Will terrorists arrest and punish another terrorist
for committing terrorists crimes ? Of course not.

What is the motive of the Terrorists ?
To oppress others and steal from others ? Yes.
To steal, rape, pillage, and plunder ? Yes.
To murder and torture innocent people ? Yes.

And to suggest that Alqaeda is growing and reorganizing
is to ignore the fact that many of them (perhaps 30%) have
been killed or arrested. Alqaeda is definitely on the run.
Sure, many still exist, but Alqaeda no longer has refuge
in Afghanistan. The taliban have been removed from power.
Alqaeda’s days are numbered. Their future is grim. They will lose.
Regardless of how hard it is or how long it takes, why try to
perpetuate the myth that those fighting terrorist are making
them stronger and creating more terrorists ?

To draw any similarity between terrorists and
U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops and police is a
huge insult to those that deserve our utmost respect
and honor.

=========================================
Phx8,
Thanks. I think our fundamental goal in Iraq is a noble one.
Even if some had or have questionable motives, the
liberation of Iraq makes the whole planet safer.
Fallujah was full of terrorists. I have no sympathy for the
terrorists. I also refuse to believe that the U.S. troops,
coalition, and Iraqi troops and Iraqi police are murdering
anything that moves. That’s not to say that some accidents
occur. But, remember, civilians in Fallujah were allowed to
leave the battle zone. U.S., coalition, and Iraqi troops
didn’t just start murdering civilians as they left Fallujah.

There are EMBEDDED journalists with the troops.
Anytime they get out of line, it’s all over the news.
I do not wear blinders. Bad things happen.

While there’s always a few bad apples, and bad things happen,
it’s unfair to condemn the rest who’s goal is noble. I have a lot of
respect for the U.S., coalition, and Iraqi troops fighting and
dying in Iraq …. struggling to make it a safer place.

To draw any similarity between terrorists and
U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops and police is a
huge insult to those that deserve our utmost respect
and honor.

=========================================
Lou, you wrote:
_______
Daniel,
“Even China….”
I am just curious. How much you know about China and the people in China. Do you know what they want? Do you speak Chinese? In case of an invasion, exactly those students, who fighted 15 years ago, will be the ones who stand up first and reject American bombs. Now who do you think those resistants in Falluja are? Many of them are the ones who loved their land and wanted a better system, long before the Americans were there. You might be able to kill them all; but who are the Americans to count on to rebuild the country.
One thing bothered me. My foreign friends here call me ‘Daniel’. _______

Lou,
No I don’t know how to speak Chinese. So ?
I’ve never been to China. So ?
And, who said anything about the U.S. invading or bombing China ?
That sort of rhetoric borders on hysteria.

My statement regarding China was as follows ( and I’d like to emphasize that
I am NOT suggesting that China is a terrorist nation….perhaps it was poorly
worded (below) ).
The only point I’m making about China is that they see the importance of a
FREE market economy….who would argue that ? Freedom to have a FREE market
and FREE trade, FREEDOM is the point. That is why the Chinese government
has allowed some privatization of certain businesses and industries, and have
allowed the business owners to administer those businesses and reap some profits
of their hard work).
_______
Even China, and other countries with dictators, in this global economy,
are being forced to recognize the value and force of free markets,
and inalienable human rights. Students in China, not so long ago,
sacrificed their lives to fight for basic inalienable human rights.
Their efforts did not go unnoticed.
_______

Lou, you asked “who are the Americans to count on to rebuild (Iraq) ?”
America is already rebuilding Iraq. Schools, and hospitals, and businesses
are opening everywhere. America rebuilt Japan, and helped Britain, and
Europe, and France. So, why all the negativity and hatred of the
U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops fighting to rid the world of terrorist scum ?
If the U.S. was truly evil as some hysterical pundits choose to believe,
we would not be having this discussion, because we would not have
freedom of speech, freedom to vote, freedom to flourish.

To draw any similarity between terrorists and
U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops and police is a
huge insult to those that deserve our utmost respect
and honor.
=========================================

AP, yes, if we don’t do it now, there is no reason to believe we will before we pass the point of no return toward a bankrupt nation.

Also, of ominous note, is the trend of the trade deficits. This trend, ever increasing deepening of international trade deficits, spells only one thing very clearly, we are bolstering jobs overseas without a commensurate bolstering of jobs here in the U.S. We are growing dependence upon foreign goods and services and losing the infrastructure to supply ourselves with what we need and consume - it is not just oil going this way, it is a huge basket of goods and services.

Terrorists, worldwide, are being arrested or killed.

For every terrorist we kill three more take their place.

No matter what we do miltarily we will not defeat the idea of terrorisim, we can only limit the possible effetcs it might have on us (increased security). Also we should not let terrorists control land as they did in Afghanistan, but we should not scare the living daylights out of them when we invade or else they will be enraged and join terrorism. Also we should not invade countries needlessly as we did in Iraq. This displays a message to the muslims, “we hate all muslims who do not co-operate with the West” Thus enraging them to the extent of joining the terrorists.

CONGRESS, the National Debt, Deficits, and the future of the United States
_____________________________________________________________________

(1) The U.S. indeed has a Congress with a huge
spending problem. However, the total National
debt ( $7.5 trillion ) is a smaller percentage
of the total GDP ( about $13 trillion annually ) than past decades.

(2) Social Security and Medicare are doomed.
Much of the National Debt is money that was
supposed to be for Social Security and other
entitlements. It’s gone.
Soon, the baby boomers born in the 50s and 60s
will soon be eligible, and they will bust the
bank for sure. There used 14+ tax payers for
every person drawing (smaller then) benefits
Now, there are only only 4 or 5 persons for
every person drawing benefits.
The only possible outcome is that the Social
Security and Medicare benefits will be
drastically cut while taxes are also increased
substantially. The increase in taxes will
just encourage more spending and waste.
The government should never be in the business
of redistributing wealth. Tax payers should
never agree to higher taxes, when the Congress
can not control spending.

(3) Currently the U.S. borrows $1 billion
per day.
The interest on the national debt is about
$1 billion per day.
See what’s happening ?
The U.S. is borrowing what is required to
simply pay the interest on the
$7.5 trillion dollar national debt.
That comes to about $360 billion per year,
which is about one fourth of the annual
revenue.

Now, if the U.S. government had the
discipline to stop borrowing $1 billion per
day , and started paying $1 billion per
day toward the $7.5 trillion dollar
national debt, it would take about
100 years !

So, they’d better get started now, because
it’s going to take a long long time.

(4) Congress can not control spending.
Congressmen a conflict of interest.
Save tax dollars, but bring home the pork.
They get more votes to bring home the pork.
Since everyone wants a piece of the pie
before it’s all gone, it is total chaos.
Too many people believe they can live at the
expense of everyone else. The problem is
actually rooted in greed. And it is
rampant in D.C.

The only thing that may ever work is to
have a law that forces Congress to balance
the budget annually. If Congress fails to
balance the budet, all Congressmen are
automatically banned from office.

The only exception may be during a time
of major war, and funds borrowed can NOT
be used for other purposes. Violators would
be stealing from our troops and should be
arrested.

(5) Before any changes can occur in Congress,
some basic fundamental changes need to
occur. Many simplifications are required.
Politicians just love to over-complicate
things until they’re just where they can
effectivel abuse them.

Thus,

(a) Only one item per bill ( this will
cut out all the pork currently
attached to all bills ). This simple
change will make things MUCH better.
(b) A Balanced Budget amendment must be
passed; and the government has to start
(now) paying $1 billion per day to
pay down the debt ( this will take about
100 years ).
(c) All voting on all bills must be made
public on a web-site, so that everyone
can see the voting record of all
Congressmen.
(d) Transparency and access to all
information must be allowed (the
only exception would be for national
security)
(e) All other laws should be enforced
(regarding bribes, fraud, and abuse
of tax dollars); no more looking the
other way. These crimes essentially
constitute fraud and theft and should
be prosecuted in the future.
(f) Start limiting the functions of the
Federal government. Initially, the
Federal government was only supposed to
provide for a National Defense.
Perhaps we should get back to that
single purpose ? That would solve
a LOT of problems, and the Federal
government wouldn’t need nearly as much
money.
(g) Phase out Social Security and Medicare,
and other huge entitlements.
Finish up with all current recipients of
Social Security, and start paying back
(or a portion of) all funds already paid
into Social Security & Medicare.
Bite the bullet now, because it’s
only going to get worse.
The Federal government has already
proved they can not manage it correclty.
The Federal government needs to
quit trying to put itself in the
position of redistributing wealth,
because they always abuse it.
Most of what the Federal government
does could be done much better at the
local and state levels. Also, much of
what the Federal government does now,
doesn’t need to be done at all.
(h) Voters must get to know the politicians,
and learn to keep an eye on them, and
demand transparency whereever possible.
To ignore what’s going on invites abuse
and corruption. The Voters are
ultimately accountable. The Voters can
bring about this change. It would help
if we have some candidates to champion
these ideas.
(i) Voters must recognize that they
can NOT live at the expense of the
state. That’s a myth.
Before long, everyone is riding in the
wagon, while only a few are pushing the
wagon. No one gets a free ride.
Abuse of the system is theft, and
should be punishable.
(j) Take away Congress’ right to vote
themselves a raise. Let the voters
choose when Congress should get a raise.
(k) Take away Congress’ cushy
multimillion dollar benefits.
Perhaps Social Security wouldn’t be
doomed had Congress had to participate
in the same Social Security system they
screwed up.
(l) Do not allow politicians to over
complicate things, or grow new
costly programs, or find new ways to
insert themselves into the money flow.
Put an end the the careers of the
master-cheater-parasites. Learn to
recognize the cheaters, their clever
tactics, and methods of clouding the
issues, obscuring the facts, stirring
it up and making it stink, running
their mouths continuously, and finding
new ways to steal from the tax payers
by gaining control of the money flow.

| Warren wrote:
|
| For every terrorist we kill three more take
| their place.
|
That’s what they want you to think.
If people believe that, then they are
succeeduing in some small degree.
They want us to give up, so that
they can continue to oppress and plunder.
|
| No matter what we do miltarily we will not
| defeat the idea of terrorisim, we can only
| limit the possible effetcs it might have on
| us (increased security). Also we should not
| let terrorists control land as they did in
| Afghanistan, but we should not scare the
| living daylights out of them when we invade
| or else they will be enraged and join
| terrorism. Also we should not invade
| countries needlessly as we did in Iraq.
| This displays a message to the muslims,
| “we hate all muslims who do not co-operate
| with the West” Thus enraging them to the
| extent of joining the terrorists.
|

I don’t think there’s even one full person to
take the place of every terrorist eliminated.
True, some people sympathetic with the terrorists
may indeed become a terrorist. But, I think it
requires more than anger to turn someone into
a mad-rabid-dog that’s willing to kill anyone
merely for the sake of terrorizing populations.
Some people get mad, and direct their anger
where it belongs. Others are brain washed and
choose to believe the U.S., Iraqi, and coalition
troops, and Iraqi police are evil. There’s
something already fundamentally wrong with
someone that chooses to become a terrorist.
The U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops are
eliminating terrorists…not creating them.
Anyone joining up with the terrorists is most
likely already a dead-ender, a loser, and a
coward that would attack and kill innocent
people to terrorize anyone who defies their
demented view of the world they strive to
and want to ruthlessly rule.

True, we may not ever eliminate ALL terrorism
everywhere, always. Regardless, we can’t afford
to give up or ignore them, or let them grow
stronger.

As for invading IRAQ, The U.S. and coalition
troops did not invade IRAQ to have for our own.
They are attempting a very difficult and noble thing…to liberate the people of Iraq.

Also, remember that IRAQ invaded Kuwait,
and never totally submitted to the U.N.
sanctions thereafter, despite many many warnings
and many many resolutions from the U.N.
Unfortunately, the U.N. is ineffective by itself,
and merely more than a debating society.

Saddam and his regime were corrupting the U.N.
during the entire time; they were stealing
from the “Oil for Food” program, and stealing
from theIraqi people.
Iraq also attacked IRAN and Isreal.
Iraq had a habit of attacking its
neighbors. Iraq was shooting at coalition planes
in the no-fly zones. Saddam has gased 5000 Kurds
in Northern Iraq. Saddam has killed millions.
Saddam and his murderers wanted to restart their
weapons programs and get some payback against
the U.S., its allies, and Isreal. Saddam had
ties with terrorists, and harbored terrorists.
Saddam had a standing order to pay $25000
to the families of any homicide bomber that
blew himself up in Israel. Iraq had
established a track-record that could not be
ignored. There were sufficient reasons to
remove Saddam and his terrorists.
Even most Iraqis’ want to be rid of the
terrorists. And the U.S., Iraqi, and coalition
troops and Iraqi police don’t create terrorists.
The terrorists were already terrorists.
They are what’s left of Saddams evil regime,
and their days are numbered.

The U.S. people and coalition do not
hate Muslims. That’s a tactic to cloud
the issues and obscure the facts.
Most people in the U.S. understand and
believe the idea of “freedom of religion”
and don’t (generally speaking) hate any
religion. Not all muslims are terrorists.
Likewise, it’s incorrect to imply all or even
most Muslims are terrorists. The fact is,
most Muslims denounce terrorism as do
most people everywhere.

Daniel, I would suggest you do your homework or take others word for it who have, the Islamic Fundamentalist numbers are up, according to our own State Dept., the History channel, and CIA in their reports on Pakistan where many have fled or remain, Indonesia, Malaysia, Syria, Yemen, and other places. When the State Dept. issues numbers contrary to Bush’s rosy scenarios, I will take the State Dep’t.’s word over yours, in a heartbeat. You are spinning this, and the facts simply contradict you.

Daniel, also, you may want to research the Madrassas in Saudi Arabia, breeding grounds for terrorists. S.A. has witnessed a large population shift in wages and worth, 2/3 cut in income over the last 2 decades for very large numbers. S.A. sanctioned the Madrassas for one purely political reason, if the poor were contained in Mosque’s, they wouldn’t be demonstrating on the streets against the aggregation of wealth into fewer and fewer hands at the top of the pyramid while so many so their living standards drop. This maneuver of course backfired, producing most of the 9/11 attackers, and these terrorist factories are still in operation, according to video reports viewed on one of the History channels just today.

Our CIA has very little information about S.A. and that has been by design and promulgated through 4 American presidencies, now. Bush, has also been reluctant to put the screws on S.Arabia, though, the CIA and Rice may be able to agree that whatever the consequences, we can no longer afford to be blind to the inner workings of S.A.

This is from an interview on C-span with Bernard Lewis, a leading expert on Islam and the west. You can check out his many books at Amazon.

Prof. LEWIS: Well, the kind of wishy-washy policies that have been followed in the past and just won’t work and the question which people have been asking all the time is I think the wrong question. The question people are asking is why do they hate us? That’s the wrong question. They’ve been hating us for a long time. In a sense, they’ve been hating us for centuries, and it’s very natural that they should. You have this millennial rivalry between two world religions, and now, from their point of view, the wrong one seems to be winning. And more generally, I mean, you can’t be rich, strong, successful and loved, particularly by those who are not rich, not strong and not successful. So the hatred is something almost axiomatic.

The question which we should be asking is why do they neither fear nor respect us? And this is what comes out very clearly in the writings of Osama bin Laden …

He says, for example, `The Americans are paper tigers. They’ve grown soft. Hit them and they’ll run.’ And then the same litany’s always repeated—Vietnam, Lebanon, and Somalia. There is a belief that, to any American, would appear absolutely preposterous. What happened in Somalia was an attempt to establish an imperial American domination over that country and this was foiled by the brave Somali people who stood up to defend their independence. I mean, there’s obviously a gross travesty on both sides of what happened. But that is how Osama bin Laden sees it. And he saw this as evidence of weakness and softness and was encouraged to go on with that.

The terrorists want you to believe they
are numerous and powerful.

They are not. They will lose.
Democracy will prevail.
This is what the terrorists fear most.
Terrorists don’t want everyone to have
freedom to vote, freedom of religion,
freedom to flourish. The terrorists have
no message that can ever resonate with
the majority. The terrorists only have a
message that resonates with the ignorant,
hateful, and intolerant. The terrorists
are a minority, and they will lose.

I seriously wonder about those of you that
fuel the terrorists and sympathize with
the terrorists. You attempt to perpetuate
their propaganda and demonize those that
fight against terrorism. Why is that ?

Why are we in Iraq at this point?

We’re bringing democracy, or at least stable & peaceful self-rule, to Iraq.

Who opposes this?

1) Terrorists.
2) Foreign Jihadists.
2) Iraqi Insurgents.

Are they the same?

No.

However, they’re not mutually exclusive groups. Iraqis can become Al Qaida terrorists. The short-term goal is to keep the Iraqis from joining Al Qaida. Current tactics- dropping 500 lb bombs in urban areas, replying to mortar attacks with artillery barrages into urban neighborhoods, flattening Fallujah- causes some terrorist & insurgent casualties, but also kills large numbers of civilian. In the pursuit of the current strategy, the US has killed 10,000 innocent civilians.

Is the stragegy working?

No. The level of violence continues to escalate. The numbers of terrorists in Iraq is unknown. Foreign jihadists seem to number in the low thousands. Iraqi insurgents number in the tens of thousands. Most of the opposition in all three categories seem to consist of Sunnis. It would be hard to come up with a more certain way to create support for Al Qaida and the Iraqi resistance than blowing apart a major city.

Should the US simply kill everyone who resists?

No. Remember the goal: creating democracy, or at least a stable, peaceful environment, is inconsistent with killing all who disagree. And killing innocent civilians will inevitably happen when practicing all-out warfare.

But Saddam killed more Iraqis. Iraqis kill Iraqis. We’re trying to avoid killing innocent civilians!

Being ‘less evil than Saddam’ is not worthy of us. All-out urban warfare will continue to result in large numbers of civilian casualties. Tactical victories will be undermined on a strategic level due to our loss of the moral high ground. It is a classic example of winning the battle and losing the war.

If it isn’t too late already… we need to remember our goal. It’s obvious that the US needs to help the Iraqis conduct elections, but at this point the machinery for doing that is at a complete standstill.

I am so disgusted I can’t go on.

Bugcrazy & Daniel, I drafted a long response specifically addressing issues you raised, but my computer at work lost its internet connection. Arg! Will try to get back with you…
Don

Daniel,

“If the U.S. was truly evil as some hysterical pundits choose to believe…”

No one implied that the U.S. is evil… so no need to rush on that exculpation. Who is hysterical? Everyone be the judge.

“So, why all the negativity and hatred of the
U.S., Iraqi, and coalition troops fighting to rid the world of terrorist scum ?”

Since when everyone of them became ‘terrorist’? Before the war I wasn’t aware that there were so many of them.
Not just because there were some terrists the entire Iraq became the “world of terrorist scum”. Not just because the people didn’t have American democracy their lives became any less meaningful. Switch roles, if you can, and try to think as a non-American.

Please execuse my English. I won’t post anymore.

Lou

Your English was fine. You should post again, if you have ideas.

Not all the insurgents are terrorists, but there are many terrorists among the insurgents. As an American it is difficult for me to put myself in their shoes. Our history is different. Our big insurgency was our Civil War, which killed more Americans than any other war in our history. It was a savage war, with plenty of atrocities, but there were few cases of insurgents targeting civilians. I don’t know of any cases of them attacking their own people to make a political point and there are no cases I have heard of them indiscriminately killing civilians in their own occupied cities.

Atrocities happen in war, but in the case of the Iraqi insurgents, atrocity is policy. What is clear is that the insurgents are less interested in a peaceful and prosperous Iraq than they are in their own personal power and they are working to make the whole affair as savage as possible. They purposely hide behind civilian populations to maximize the harm to non-combatants. They kidnap and murder people who have helped Iraqis in the past and who would rebuild the country. The recent murder of the British/Iraqi woman (Hassan) is a lot like gunning down Mother Teresa. Not only do they commit the crime, they brag about it on tape. In Fallujah, they have booby-trapped the bodies of their fallen comrades. This is plain despicable. I don’t think you could induce a U.S. Marine to do that under any circumstances. You are right. As an American I don’t understand such things and I don’t want to learn to appreciate such barbarism. We have to learn enough about these guys to stop them, and then I hope we don’t have to think about them much at all.

I’m with Lou.
I thought we were supposed to be freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam - well, we got him and he’s out of the country. Why didn’t we just remove all the explosives and weapons we could find and leave these people to work things out amonst themselves? If our troops were needed to protect people until the Iraqi’s formed a representative government we could have gone in only when necessary.
What the hell are we doing over there killing so many their people? Are we becoming terrorists ourselves just so we can control their oil? Why else would be doing what we are doing?
The Iraqi’s are only fighting against occupation - just like we ourselves would be if another country invaded us.
Lou said:
“Switch roles, if you can, and try to think as a non-American.”

If only for a moment - I think it is important for us to respect his wishes.

I am so ASHAMED of the leadership of my country. I do not blame the troops - my heart bleeds for their deaths and dismemberment. They are only following the orders that come from the top. It is our president and his chicken-hawk neo-con administration who needs to be tried and convicted of commiting war crimes.

These are the pictures they won’t show us on TV, although the rest of the world is broadcasting them. I must warn you all, many of them are gory and graphic:

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

David, Lou,

You assume (incorrectly) that someone that
disagrees with you is uninformed.
The fact is, I see most of the news, reports,
History Channel, and articles,
web-sites, and much much more.
I see the positive, the negative, the balanced,
and the unbalanced.
Some of what I’ve seen is truly horrific,
and seconds seem like hours.

Most of the horrific information is not shown
and / or reported to the people in the United
States. The media in the United States chooses
not to. I do worry that too many Americans
really do not understand what’s going on,
since the media protects them from seeing any
horrific images.
I worry that too many may be too sheltered and
take it too lightly. True, some Americans
really do not understand what’s going on, but
that’s probably true of some people in many
other countries also.

However, I still assert correctly that
“many” terrorists does not equal “majority”
of the people in the world.
No one argues that there are many terrorists.
No one argues that there numbers were allowed
for too long to grow too large. The world
community ignored the problem too long, until
the terrorists started to inflict major harm.

That does not mean the terrorists are the
majority of people on the planet.
That is why the terrorists will lose.
The terrorists are a minority, and the
terrorists do not have the power (currently) to
destroy everyone or the whole world.

Regardless, Iraq had a evil dictator.
Saddam was not contained. He was still getting
billions from the “Oil for Food”, stealing from
his people (which is the least of his crimes).

I truly wish there was a better way to deal with
countries and dictators like Saddam. Until the
world community takes firm responsibility,
there will be no concensus on how to deal with
dictators and terrorists.

Regardless of what should have done about
Saddam and Iraq, the U.S. and coalition troops
now have two choices at this moment:

(1) Liberate Iraq with troops on the ground,
and air-support when possible.
Rebuild Iraq, and train their military
and police to maintain security.
Rebuild their infrastructure, schools,
hospitals, electric generation, and
oil producing facilities, so that the
Iraqis can support themselves.

When that has been accomplished, pull out
all U.S. and coalition troops.
Let Iraq govern themselves.

This is what the U.S., Iraq, and coalition
troops and Iraqi police are struggling to
do now. It’s a very difficult endeavor.

(2) Pull out of Iraq now.

I think that would be very irresponsible
at this point in time. There are still too
many terrorists, insurgents, rebels
(whatever you want to call them).
Iraq will fall back into total chaos and
anarchy if we bail now.
The looting would resume, but even worse.
Also, the terrorists would regain control
of Iraq, set up a dictatorship, and make a
terrorist haven out of it (like Saddam,
and like what happened in Afghanistan).

As far as what we should have done, these
were our choices:

(1) Liberate Iraq. Remove the dictator,
(Saddam) and the terrorists,
bring democracy, law enforcement,
and protection of human rights to Iraq,
rebuild it’s infrastructure, and
help Iraq help themselves.

This is what the U.S., Iraq, and coalition
troops, and Iraqi police are struggling to
do now. The U.S. and coalition troops want
to leave as soon as possible.

(2) Do little. Contiune attempts to
contain Saddam through U.N. sanctions.
Let Saddam continue to steal from the
“Oil for Food” program, corrupt the U.N.,
oppress his pople, build WMD, link up
with terrorists.

This is a bad idea.
It continues to corrupt the U.N.,
and allows Saddam to regain power, and
resume his pursuit of WMD, and continue
to oppress his people, and attack his
neighbors, and murder his own people.

(3) Do nothing. Discontiune attempts to
contain Saddam through U.N. sanctions.
Let Saddam continue to oppress his
people, build WMD, link up with terrorists.

This is a bad idea.
It allows Saddam to regain power, and
resume his pursuit of WMD, and continue
to oppress his people, and attack his
neighbors, and murder his own people.

(4) Wait for the United Nations member
countries and the world community
to do something to insure that Saddam
and Iraq will not attack anyone else, and
will not harbor terrorits (such as Saddam
was doing with his policy to pay $15K to
$25K to homicide bombers, and atttempting
to link up with other terrorit
organizations).

This is a bad idea.
None of us will live long enough to
ever see the U.N. actually ever do anything
but talk, talk, talk, steal from the
“Oil for Food”, steal from the Iraqi people,
and allow themselves to be further
corrupted by Saddam Huessien, and continue
to collect their fat salaries while rarely
actually accomplishing anything.

(5) Wait for Saddam and Iraq to attack another
country, or send terrorists to attack
another country (or countries).

Then retaliate by nuking Iraq off the face
of the planet.

This is a very bad choice.
It is totally unacceptable.
The rest of the world would not tolerate it.
Mostly innocent civilians would be killed
due to the crimes of a minority of the
people in power in the country of Iraq.

(6) Wait for Saddam and Iraq to attack another
country, or send terrorists to attack
another country (or countries).

Then retaliate against Iraq with
overwhelming military force.

This is a bad choice.
Many, many, troops on both sides will be
killed, and many civilians will be killed.
Saddam (or whatever dictator is in power)
will be ready, will have rebuilt their
arsenal, WMD, and will have grown their
armies, and defenses.

(7) Wait for Saddam and Iraq to attack another
country, or send terrorists to attack
another country (or countries).
Then do nothing about it.
Do not retaliate against Saddam and Iraq.
Let them get away with it.

This is a bad choice.
It’s unlikely that any nation attacked or
its allies will choose to not retaliate
against an aggressor. To not retaliate
is to invite more attacks, and eventually
be total over-run and conquered.

So, it’s obviously a very difficult decision.

I wish no one had to die to fight dictators
(who murder their own people and attack others).

However, given all of the options (above),
Option (1) does not seem like a bad idea to me.

In fact, it seems like the most noble decision.

DAN said: “That does not mean the terrorists are the
majority of people on the planet.
That is why the terrorists will lose.
The terrorists are a minority, and the
terrorists do not have the power (currently) to
destroy everyone or the whole world.”

This is such a misdirection. You are not addressing the argument that our invaision of Iraq increased terrorism throughout the world. I nor any others here made the claim that terrorists constitute the majority of the world’s population. If that was your understanding, I think you misunderstood. The State Dep’t. said there were more terrorist casualties in 2003 than in 2002. Period. A host of others have documented large numbers of peoples allied with al-Queda and their goal. Two of Pakistan’s 4 provinces are now governed by the Taliban which was not the case prior to our invasion of Iraq. Pakistan’s Congress saw last year the number of Taliban in their Congress grow from 4% to 20%. One fifth of the Pakistan Congress now represents Taliban views and issues.

The facts are there in our own government data sheets, as well as throughout the world press, that terrorists numbers have increased, casualties resulting from terrorism have increased, and the spread of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorist groups around the globe has increased.

If eradicating them were a simple matter, we would have won the War against the N. Vietnamese. The fact is that guerilla warfare conducted by an enemy that blends into indigenous populations, without uniforms or assembled armies, has proven in Chechnya, Viet Nam, Indonesia, Cambodia, and even in the U.S., to be the most difficult of all enemies to vanquish. In fact, to date, victory over such enemies has never been one by their opponents.

Where they have disappeared, it has occured as a result of populations losing the ability to identify with their means and ends. In other words, they fade away for lack of recruits and convincing arguments, not because they were vanquished by their opponents. Our invasion of Iraq lent credibility to their ends, and in the minds of millions, to their means as well.

For it was justified that if the U.S. could violate international precedent and law and invade a sovereign nation preemptively based on indefensibile intelligence and fabricated evidence, oppostion to such ominous foreign policy by a Christian nation against Islamic peoples must be opposed and fought by any means. This was OBL’s sales pitch, and it was effective precisely because of the U.S.’s invasion of Iraq in the manner and on the basis that it did.

Invading Iraq was one of the all time greatest foreign policy blunders in American history. But, that is past. Can’t be undone. What we do now from this point forward, will be crucial to our ability to recover from such a horrendous mistake.

Russia is building nuclear weapons we don’t have. China is sending probe submarines into other nations waters. Iran is absolutely refusing to relinquish its nuclearization accomplishments to date. Sudan is defying the will of the world to influence its internal civil strife. There is a pattern here. And it stems from the fact that the U.S. is BOGGED down and committed in Iraq, leaving the U.S. and its allies weak and impotent to effectively deal with other nations with expansionist designs.

Leaving Iraq, is the single most powerful act the U.S. can take to restore its capability to back foreign policy positions with military clout. As long as we remain in Iraq, our military clout is compromised, and other nations can and are taking advantage. Condi Rice can talk tough all day long, and our competitors will laugh at her behind her back as long as we are quagmired in Iraq.

That is what the U.S. must deal with over the next four years and beyond. And if the U.S. believes it is going to grow our military to both remain in Iraq and effectively carry a big stick throughout the rest of the world, then we can kiss deficit reductions and fiscal restraint good bye, as well as effective growth in domestic policy and we wil have to curtail investments in the future of our own work force, educational systems, health care problems, and environment issues.

David R. Remer,

You wrote:
______________________________________
Daniel, I would suggest you do your homework or take others word for it who have, the Islamic Fundamentalist numbers are up, according to our own State Dept., the History channel, and CIA in their reports on Pakistan where many have fled or remain, Indonesia, Malaysia, Syria, Yemen, and other places. When the State Dept. issues numbers contrary to Bush’s rosy scenarios, I will take the State Dep’t.’s word over yours, in a heartbeat. You are spinning this, and the facts simply contradict you.
______________________________________

David R. Remer,
The facts do NOT contradict me as YOU say.
While, the terrorists WERE allowed too long to
go too numerous (prior to 2001), that has
changed substantially during the last 3 years,
BECAUSE a large percentage of them (especially
in Afghanistan and Iraq) have been eliminated,
forced to run and hide, disperse, and have
been deprived of their homes, camps, and
the terrorist Taliban government that was
harboring Alqaeda, and other terrorists.

And there is no reliable report that anyone
can arrogantly wave around that supports any
claims that the terrorists numbers have
substantially increased in the last three years.

And even if that were true, there
is no logical reason to believe (as some do)
that it is the fault of the U.S. or coalition,
or to believe that there’s something we’re doing
that we should stop doing, that is supposedly creating terrorists.
The blame for terrorism is insanity, and the
fault of the foolish individual that chooses
to be a terrorist.
With sane people, not even injustices
will drive them to murder other innocent people
as terrorists choose to do.
Why do most reject terrorism and denounce the
tactics of the terrorists. Even most that are
angry about something do not resort to
terrorism.

Thus, terrorists are not sane.

And, even if the terrorists numbers
were growing a bit as you believe,
what difference does it make?
What’s the point of noticing it ?
Does it make the necessity to eliminate them any less ?

You can not appease the insane terrorists.
You can not reason with the insane terrorists.
You can not change the mind of insane terrorists.
You can not cure the insane terrorists.
You can not co-exist with the insane terrorists.
Logic and reason does not work with terrorists.
Understanding the terrorists and psychotherapy
won’t stop them from committing crimes against
innocent people.

I do believe, that to some terrorists,
it is a religious war.
Still, it does not matter why they
murder people, since NO reason is justified.

The terrorists are quite simply insane.
Especially, if you consider that their behavior
will utlimately result in their own destruction.

Some of the insanity is from brain washing and
hatred that is used at a very early age, and it
is passed on to the subsequent generations.
You can try to understand all of their reasons,
and you will find one common thread … they
are intolerant, illogical, fanatical, often
ignorant, often poor, often uneducated, often
brain-washed, and basically insane.

Its interesting to point out, that it does not
work on everyone. Some still choose another
path. Some still choose to respect the rights
of others, and strive to live in harmony with
other people.

The ones that fall prey to the hate mongering
and brain-washing are the few that are already
prone to insanity, for whatever reason…
perhaps it’s a disease or genetic factor.
No one really knows why most are or choose good,
and some are or choose evil. Environmental
factors could the factors that tip some of them
over the edge. So, improving their environments
may be one way to improve the situation.

If you really want to know to search for root causes
and ways to prevent terrorism, study the sort of
hate mongering, and brain-washing found in
some regions…. such as the hate and teachings
amongst some Palestinians and some other
middle-eastern regions, Indonesia, etc.

Some of the people in those and other regions
hate everything, and teach the hatred to
their children. It’s brain-washing.

Causes and Reasons are:
(1) poverty
(2) ignorance and a lack of education
(3) hatred and intolerance
(4) corrupt government, and oppression,
and lack of just law enforcement
(5) absence or lack of the most simple principle
of live-and-let-live: Anyone can do anything
as long as they do not violate the inalienable
human rights of any other person.

How do you change that ?
The only way to change it is to help them
learn to help improve themselves, learn to
respect others’ rights,
enforce the protection of others’ rights, and
learn the most basic principle of live-and-let-live.

But, until that happens, the ugly job of
eliminating existing terrorists remains.
Most of these existing terrorists are beyond
help. They can only be eliminated.

Some of the terrorists are Muslim, but that does NOT
mean all Muslims are terrorists. It does NOT
mean the Muslim faith is evil. Even if a
brain-washed child grows up to be a terrorist
and can not help being that way, it does not matter.
They are still insane, for whatever reason,
and they are unable co-exist within a society
without harming other people. The choice is theirs, but those fighting terrorism have no
choice. Terrorists can not be tolerated.

Regardless, the terrorists’ tactics will never
succeed in the end. The world is equally as intolerant
of terrorism as the terrorists are of the world they want to destroy.
The terrorists will be eventually defeated, or imprisoned.

The life of a terrorist is truly a sad and low place.
They believe they are justified to murder innocent lives,
to make a political or religious point.
They desperately want to believe in their cause, because,
if they’re wrong, they are murderers.

Society can not co-exist with terrorists.
Terrorist are insane, like a mad dog with
rabies, for which there is currently no cure.

David R. Remer,

I see your assertions,
but I do not believe them.

I do not believe that the U.S. or coalition
create terrorists. There’s no proof of
such a statement. If that is your belief,
you are entitled to it.

The reason I don’t believe it,
is because the terrorists already existed,
or were already in the pipeline.

And the spike in occurrences of terrorism
does not prove that there are more terrorists.
It proves that there are more occurrences,
and that’s because we’ve got them on the run.
Many of them have been eliminated. Some have
been imprisoned. There bank accounts are being
seized. The war on terror is working, and it
is making the terrorists very nervous.

They grow terrorists from childhood in some regions.
Like Saddam, who fostered a great deal of that,
which is all the more reason for his removal.
Arafat fueled terrorism. Arafat was a terrorist.
Arafat was also stealing a lot of money from the
Palestinian people.

The long term solution to terrorism is to
protect the rights of all people,
and enforce that protection.
That is in line with the most
basic live-and-let-live pinciple.
No one that violates the rights of others
will be tolerated. If we had been enforcing
these laws all along, we would probably not be
dealing with a large number of violators now.

The problem in Iraq is very difficult, because
the world community allowed the problem to
exist for too long. Now, there’s no easy way
to remove the terrorists. However, the
terrorists in Iraq are primarily in limited
regions of the country.

The majority of Iraq is improving.
It would be irresponsible to pull out now,
without allowing the Iraqi police and military
time to provide for their own security and law
enforcement. The U.S. and coalition also do not
want to stay in Iraq any longer than necessary.

Dan said: “The reason I don’t believe it,
is because the terrorists already existed,
or were already in the pipeline.”

That is such a static view and contradicts even common sense, let alone gov’t reports. Terrorists do not arise on mass all at once, and maintain a static number only to be reduced to nothing by opposing forces. That has not been true of any enemy our nation has ever fought. There numbers grow for a time as the struggle intensifies. If they subsequently decline as in WWII to levels that are unsustainable, they capitulate and surrender. Of their numbers continue to be replenishable and even grow in size as in N. Korea or Viet Nam, then our war of attrition ends in failure, at least historically.

Common sense dictates that given the majority of world opinion hostile to our actions in Iraq, and given the staggering numbers of Muslims in the world, the recruits to al-Queda or similar organizations (regardless of how loosely organized) are going to grow as OBL’s arguments are disseminated.

Given the common sense of the argument, and the reports by CIA analysts and State Dep’t officials indicating terrorist organizations are growing, I personally would feel foolish to staunchly hold a contrary opinion. But, of course, folks are free to hold whatever opinions they wish regardless of whether they are baseless or not. Debates, however, are based on persuasive evidence, NOT, statements like “Well, that is my opinion and that makes it true”. Fact is, often times even the best evidence also proves to be wrong, baseless opinion however is even more likely to be so, which is why it is not valued in rational debate for anything more than just a belief one wants to hold onto despite evidence to the contrary.

David R. Remer,
You wrote ( see >> ).
___________________________________
That is such a static view and contradicts even common sense, let alone gov’t reports.
>>
Terrorists do not arise on mass all at once, and maintain a static number only to be reduced to nothing by opposing forces.
>>
That has not been true of any enemy our nation has ever fought. There numbers grow for a time as the struggle intensifies.
>>
If they subsequently decline as in WWII to levels that are unsustainable, they capitulate and surrender. Of their numbers continue to be replenishable and even grow in size as in N. Korea or Viet Nam, then our war of attrition ends in failure, at least historically.

Common sense dictates that given the majority of world opinion is hostile to our actions in Iraq, and given the staggering numbers of Muslims in the world, the recruits to al-Queda or similar organizations (regardless of how loosely organized) are going to grow as OBL’s arguments are disseminated.
>>

Given the common sense of the argument, and the reports by CIA analysts and State Dep’t officials indicating terrorist organizations are growing, I personally would feel foolish to staunchly hold a contrary opinion. But, of course, folks are free to hold whatever opinions they wish regardless of whether they are baseless or not. Debates, however, are based on persuasive evidence, NOT, statements like “Well, that is my opinion and that makes it true”. Fact is, often times even the best evidence also proves to be wrong,
>>
baseless opinion however is even more likely to be so, which is why it is not valued in rational debate for anything more than just a belief one wants to hold onto despite evidence to the contrary.
>>
___________________________________

David R. Remer,
You wrote (see responses below):
__________________
That is such a static view and contradicts even common sense, let alone gov’t reports. Daniel: You don’t believe all government reports do you? Or, only when it’s convenient?
Terrorists do not arise on mass all at once, and maintain a static number only to be reduced to nothing by opposing forces. Daniel: I never said they were static. I said there is no proof that the numbers actually increased or decreased. Even if they did increase…So what? More importantly, is that any reason to give up and do nothing to fight terrorism?
That has not been true of any enemy our nation has ever fought. There numbers grow for a time as the struggle intensifies. Daniel: It seems logical that numbers would fall as deaths occur. If they subsequently decline as in WWII to levels that are unsustainable, they capitulate and surrender. Of their numbers continue to be replenishable and even grow in size as in N. Korea or Viet Nam, then our war of attrition ends in failure, at least historically. Daniel: I don’t think that is historically correct. Numbers would fall as they are dying faster than they can be replenished. A large percentage of terrorists have similarly been eliminated. The U.S. doesn’t create terrorists. Terrorists simply exist. They do not respect the rights of others. Many were probably already criminals and outcasts. Some terrorists may now think they have a common cause against the U.S. and other countries, and that may be causing some of them to rally, even attempt to face the U.S., coalition, and Iraqi troops in battle, but they will only find their death. The terrorists hate anyone who opposes them. Society will exterminate them. World opinion is not against those that oppose and fight terrorism. World opinion denounces terrorism.

Common sense dictates that given the majority of world opinion is hostile to our actions in Iraq,
Daniel: There’s no proof that world opinion is as you say. Did you count the votes?
If that were truly so, why doesn’t the world community do something about it?
and given the staggering numbers of Muslims in the world, the recruits to al-Queda or similar organizations (regardless of how loosely organized) are going to grow as OBL’s arguments are disseminated. Daniel: Bin Laden has NO good arguments. Only insane people would follow Bin Laden, who will lead them to their destruction. The U.S. does not make people insane. So, even if the number of terrorists grow, So what? More importantly, is that any reason to ignore them and let terrorists continue to kill innocent people? Is that any reason to not fight terrorists? What is it you want?

Given the common sense of the argument, and the reports by CIA analysts and State Dep’t officials indicating terrorist organizations are growing, I personally would feel foolish to staunchly hold a contrary opinion. Daniel: then you should, as you say you should. You have the numbers? Show them to me. I doubt anyone can prove a substantial change in the number of terorists. That’s BECAUSE the terrorists already existed. They have simply not been as active in the past. Sure, they have some new recruits and something to rally around (Iraq)? But, the number of terrorists is NOT infinite, and society will not tolerate terorists.
But, of course, folks are free to hold whatever opinions they wish regardless of whether they are baseless or not. Daniel: I agree with you completely. I would not ever dream of depriving you of your beliefs, no matter how absurd they may seem. Debates, however, are based on persuasive evidence, NOT, statements like “Well, that is my opinion and that makes it true”. Fact is, often times even the best evidence also proves to be wrong, Daniel: Then we’re all wrong and none of us have any reliable evidence? Where are your numbers? Did you do a poll? Were you surprised when Kerry lost the election? baseless opinion however is even more likely to be so, which is why it is not valued in rational debate for anything more than just a belief one wants to hold onto despite evidence to the contrary.
Daniel: Ain’t it great? That’s the great thing about democracy. I’ll believe what I want (based on the facts), no matter how much that upsets you, and you can believe what you want.
__________________

Dan, your comments don’t upset me, I live in Texas where most of my neighbors believe as you do. Good people too. But when engaged almost without exception they stipulate they are not experts and have not researched the history of the situation.

The loss of American lives in a situation that Norman Schwarzkopf predicted would be the case back in 1991 if we took out Saddam Hussein and occupied Iraq upsets me. So many intelligent and knowledgeable folks in the CIA and State Dep’t. warned against invading Iraq in the manner we did, and they all went largely ignored. That upsets me. We have troops being killed and maimed and psychologically scarred and there appears to be no progress toward a free and democratic Iraq to justify the losses in American lives and American taxes. That upsets me.

The research of world opinion was conducted in internation polling and the results were posted here on WB awhile back. That is data. You have nothing but wishful thinking. It is fine for you to ignore or fail to research your opinion, no ones life depends on your opinion directly. When the President does that however, history may well judge this Bush’s invasion of Iraq right up there with high crimes and misdemeanors.

I admit it is too soon to determine if our mission in Iraq has failed or can still be justified by the end result. The costs for the mission are mounting though and if they continue to do so in the absence of concrete progress in the stated goals, both you and the President will likely refuse to admit that any mistake was made. That I find humorous on your part, unforgiveable on his.

Dan, your comments don’t upset me, I live in Texas Daniel: Me too. But that really isn’t important. I’m American, as are all people in all states. where most of my neighbors believe as you do. Good people too. But when engaged almost without exception they stipulate they are not experts and have not researched the history of the situation. Daniel: I have researched it at great length. More than you will ever know.

The loss of American lives in a situation that Norman Schwarzkopf predicted would be the case back in 1991 if we took out Saddam Hussein and occupied Iraq upsets me. So many intelligent and knowledgeable folks in the CIA and State Dep’t. warned against invading Iraq in the manner we did, and they all went largely ignored. That upsets me. Daniel: It upsets me too. We agree whole heartedly on this. We have troops being killed and maimed and psychologically scarred and there appears to be no progress toward a free and democratic Iraq to justify the losses in American lives and American taxes. That upsets me. Daniel: It upsets me too. However, even if the U.S., coalition troops, and the Iraqi people fail to fight for their own freedom (as occurred in Vietnam), that does not diminish the cause, and it does not mean we were wrong. It was still a VERY noble endeavor. We may fail to liberate Iraq from the evil that infests their country, but the troops and the United States, and the Coalition troops, and the Iraqi troops, and Iraqi police, and all Iraqis that fought for liberation, are ALL still heroes. And they all deserve our respect and honor.

The research of world opinion was conducted in internation polling and the results were posted here on WB awhile back. That is data. You have nothing but wishful thinking. Daniel: I saw those polls. As you know, most polls are bogus and biased. I only knew ONLY 2 polls that correctly predicted the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, and those were the polls I watched…because their motivation was to be unbiased, unlike ALL other polls. And after the election, their poll was 98% correct on all presidential, congressional, and governor eletctions. The other was 99.9% correct! I always seek the truth, no matter how difficult. You incorrectly assume I haven’t researched because I don’t believe as you do. I don’t ignore things and do considerable more reseach than most. It is fine for you to ignore or fail to research your opinion, no ones life depends on your opinion directly. When the President does that however, history may well judge this Bush’s invasion of Iraq right up there with high crimes and misdemeanors.

I admit it is too soon to determine if our mission in Iraq has failed or can still be justified by the end result. The costs for the mission are mounting though and if they continue to do so in the absence of concrete progress in the stated goals, both you and the President will likely refuse to admit that any mistake was made. That I find humorous on your part, unforgiveable on his. Daniel: None of this is humorous. We can agree to disagree, but I still believe that all good people ALL believe in protecting and respecting the rights of all people. Even if we fail in Iraq, that does not mean it was not a noble cause….the cause always had a possibility of succeeding.

Dan if you have researched it, please share with us your resources. that is if you want your claim to be credible.

David R. Remer,

No one has accurate numbers as
to the total number of terrorists, and
no one knows if the numbers (relative
to total population) have substantially
increased or decreased.

Some models show that the numbers of terrorists
is proportionate with the population.
As the population grows, so do the number of terrorists.
And, where you find oppressed people,
you will find potential terrorist recruits, because
oppression breeds terrorism.

You can find a lot of statements all over that say the number
of terrorists has increased, but they can not be verified.
The real issue or question is:
Are the percentages of terrorists versus total population increasing ?
No one knows for certain, and no one knows if the
percentage is increasing or decreasing.

Thus, I can’t show you a web-site or report that
gives you a total number of terrorists in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.,
or percentages based on total populations,
because it doesn’t exist, and you can understand
why accurate information of that sort is difficult to obtain.

If you look at 1993, you’ll see that there were more terrorists
incidents in that year than any year between 1992 and 1998.
22

It’s to be expected that the number of terrorists incidents are
going to increase when someone attempts to bring them to
justice. That’s why the terrorist incidents are up now, because
the terrorists want to discourage us from attempting to stop them
or catch them.

Regarding the numbers of terrorist,
you may be correct to say the total number
of terrorists has increased during a certain period,
but that’s mostly due to increased populations world-wide.

If you look at the percentages of total
terrorists versus total populations, you will see
that it is almost constant and predictable, and
confined mostly to regions were populations
are oppressed (such as the middle-east, N.Korea,
Iran, Sudan, etc.)

Thus, one must not simply scrutinize
and nit-pick the total numbers. That’s missing the point.
You need to look at the percentages.

Models exist to estimate and predict terrorism growth.
Several factors affect the results.

(1) First, you have a total population at large.
(2) A percentage of the total population is overly oppressed.
(3) As oppression increases, the total number
of sympathizers increases.
(4) As the number of sympathizers increases, the
total number of recruiters increases.
(5) Not all sympathizers can be recruited, because
not all are capable of violence; but a
small percentage (basically, the pathetically
products of severe oppression, insanity, and
possibly genetic and environmental factors)
can eventually be successfully recruited.
Often, these recruits are already criminals, and
already have difficulty co-existing with other people.
(6) Then, the terrorists are also constantly losing
members; that number must be accounted for too.
Some simply drop out. The life of a terrorist is
not easy or glamorous. And, there’s currently
an effective campaign that is eliminating terrorists,
eliminating their training camps, funding, and
recruiting opportunities.

Oppression breeds poverty,
ignorance, lack of education, starvation,
unrest, and finally terrorism. That’s what is scary
about N.Korea. Those people are being starved
by their dictator, making the situation increasingly
more volatile. Religious fanatics oppress the
people of Iran. Iran is sitting on an ocean of oil
and claims their pursuit of nuclear reactors
to generate electricity ?

The oppressive government uses propaganda to
redirect the anger and hatred at another target
(such as the U.S.). The propaganda is effective,
because the oppressed are now ignorant, impoverished,
uneducated, starving, desperate, and brain-washed.

That’s why there are so many terrorists in the middle east.
That’s why we must stop looking the other way and
allowing evil oppressors to remain in power….because
to do so is to increase oppression and terrorism.

People in the middle east have been oppressed
for a long long time, and they now misdirect their
hatred toward everyone but those responsible for
their oppression and brain-washing.

When people are oppressed, living in poverty,
have no home or property, have no hope, they
become prime recruits for terrorist organizations.

Therefore, if you look at the percentages of total
population and overly oppressed populations,
you’ll find that the percentage hasn’t changed drastically
for quite some time. There is a historical trend toward
freedom, that has slowly been growing for thousands of years.

Of course, the oppressors always oppose freedom.
We must all recognize oppressed people threaten the
freedom of all. We must be strong, and firm, and
never look the other way and ignore the oppression
of a population in another region, because that oppressed
population will become the very instrument of the evil
oppressors to use terrorism, hatred, propaganda, and
brain-washing to fight the very people that are attempting
to free their nation from oppression. The longer oppression is
allowed to exist, the harder it will be to end it.
If oppression is allowed to exist and flourish unchecked,
then we will all eventually be destroyed.

I believe Korea and Vietnam were noble causes to
fight oppression. The U.S. was partially successful in
Korea, and the U.S. was not successful in Vietnam.
An experiment is still in progress in N.Korea.
The result that everyone is waiting to find out is
how will N.Korea finally implode due to it’s doomed
oppressive government ? N.Korea will
eventually bring about its own destruction.
That is what always happens in the end
to oppressive governments. They perish eventually,
because they are self destructive by nature. And,
unfortunately, portions of the oppressed population
are tricked into their own destruction by the
very people that oppress them.

Russia has a lot of terrorism, because
Russia was an oppressive nation.
However, the United States could not fight a war with Russia,
because the U.S. and Russia have too many nuclear weapons,
and it would threaten the entire planet.
So the United States waited for Russia to collapse (as
oppressive governments eventually always do). But, there’s
still a bad side effect of the collapse. Terrorism. Especially
in the satellite countries of the former USSR that are being
refused independence.

At any rate, lets suppose for sake of argument that the number
of terrorists ( the total number and the percentage of total population )
is increasing.
Even if that were true, what’s causing it ? The U.S. ? No.
What is causing terrorism ? The U.S. ? No.
Oppression causes terrorism.
Who oppresses their people ?
Saddam and his many cruel followers oppressed the people of Iraq.
The Saudi, Iranian, Taliban, and N.Korean governments
oppress they people. All of those oppressors cleverly re-direct
the hatred of their own populations at the U.S. Why?
Because the U.S. publicly denounces oppression.
Especially the type of oppression inflicted by Saddam.

So, one way to reduce or possibly end terrorism,
is to end oppression. Poverty in itself
is not always sufficient to create terrorists.
Many poor people and poor nations choose
not to be terrorists. Many people and nations
poorer than Iraq and Afghanistan choose not to
be terrorists.

The world community needs to
join in opposition to oppressive dictators and
governments, because those oppressive
dictators and governments are breeding
enemies of society, and ultimately
destroying their own people, and themselves.

History is full of such examples.
Some relatively recent examples are:

_____French Revolution: 1789-1799: The Revolution was the end of one
era, and the beginning of another. It ended a world based on traditional
blood-right and fixed social status. It placed the individual citizen and
citizens’ rights at the center of a new social order.

_____U.S. Revolution Britian oppressed the people of the American colonies;
which resulted in a war for independence.

_____U.S. Civil War: The southern states refused to abolish slavery.

_____World War 1: Germany invaded and attacked neighboring countries.

_____World War 2: Germany (Hitler) invaded and attacked neighboring countries.
Japan attacked China and the United States.

_____Gulf War:1991: Iraq (Saddam) invaded and attacked neighboring countries
(invaded Kuwait and attacked Israel). After Iraq was forced
out of Kuwait, Iraq (Saddam) agreed (terms of surrender) to
comply with United Nations sanctions.

_____Iraq War: 2003: Saddam never complied with all United Nations sanctions.
Saddam encouraged terrorism. and maintained a policy to
pay $15K to $25K to homicide bombers, continued to shoot
at coalition planes in the no fly zone, failed to honestly reveal
WMD and destruction of WMD, continued to oppress and
brutalize the Iraqi people, and corrupted the U.N. via
“Oil for Food” program.

do not believe that the U.S. or coalition create terrorists. There’s no proof of such a statement. If that is your belief, you are entitled to it.

Daniel, here’s testimony by CIA and State Dept. counter terrorism officials stating that Bush’s Iraq policy is creating more terrorists.

And there is data on the number of Islamic insurgents. Last May, the number of fully trained al Qaeda fighters was estimated at 18,000. I just saw a Reuters report recently that put the number at 32,000 - I’m pretty sure it was by the same analysts as the first report, otherwise I wouldn’t have paid any attention to it. I wish I had saved the URL.

Anyhow, there are numbers available and there is plenty of evidence to show that the numbers are increasing - and that they are increasing because of Bush’s invasion of Iraq and mishandling of the occupation.

You’re prolific, but quantity doesn’t change the facts.

American Pundit,

Those numbers are not reliable, because there is NO way to reliably count terrorists. Those that would be terrorists ALREADY existed, or were already prone to be terrorists.

True, the “War on Terror” may make some more active, but does not prove the numbers or percentages (of total populations) are increasing.

Also, for you to call Bush’s policy (and Congress who mostly agreed) wrong and dare to compare the U.S. and coalition to oppressors that create terrorists is very revealing.

The U.S. does not create terrorists.
Those that fight terrorists do not create terrorists. Terrorists simply exist. Terrorists are simply those that choose not to respect the rights of others.

To imply that the U.S. and coalition create terrorists is a huge insult to those that are fighting and dying to remove the terrorists in Iraq. It’s also a huge insult to the Iraqi people, Iraqi troops, and Iraqi police who support the action in Iraq and who also want to eliminate the terrorists, and bring security and peace to the nation.

To warmongers:

If you think war can solve problems like Super Smart Dubya and chicken hawk administration did. Please see the pictures below. You will not see these pictures much from US TVs. There will no peace until your cons wipe whole Iraqis from the planet.

WARNING: Graphic contents not suitable for children and people who are less than 18 years old.

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

AP, Winuxi, et. al. attempting to persuade Daniel with evidence, it cannot be done. Daniel is a believer, and for a believer, facts, evidence, and logic have no bearing on that which is believed. It is important to allow Americans to believe as they will, just be sure to protect your children and loved ones from the influence of such believers. For if there numbers become to great, rational, practical, and productive leadership will be abandoned or lost. We are seeing the steps in this direction today.

Thus, it is just as important that your evidence, facts, and logic be used and displayed in defense of reason, in defense of reality, and in defense of our future guided by enlightenment, and not the kind of blind belief that fueled the Grand Inquisitor’s actions, and solitaty goal in Medeival times, namely power.

David R. Remer wrote (see responses below):
AP, Winuxi, et. al. attempting to persuade Daniel with evidence, ___Evidence? Where? Pictures of dead bodies? Does that prove who injured them? Are you telling me Americans are to blame for all of that? Even the subtitles on some of the photes indicate that terrorists caused some of those casualties, not Americans.______ it cannot be done. Daniel is a believer, ______believe of the truth…what’s wrong with that?________ and for a believer, facts, evidence, and logic have no bearing on that which is believed. _____In your case, I agree completely._____ It is important to allow Americans ______Americans? Hmmmmm. That’s a strange thing to say. Are you not American? Even if you disagree with me, why imply all “Americans”? That is very revealing. Perhaps you are one of those that just want that love to hate Americans?_____ to believe as they will, just be sure to protect your children and loved ones from the influence of such believers. ______Are Americans threatening your children?______ For if there numbers become to great, rational, practical, and productive leadership will be abandoned or lost. We are seeing the steps in this direction today. _____Indeed. The sky is falling._____

Thus, it is just as important that your evidence, facts, and logic be used and displayed in defense of reason, in defense of reality, and in defense of our future guided by enlightenment, and not the kind of blind ______Who is really the blind?_____ belief that fueled the Grand Inquisitor’s actions, and solitaty goal in Medeival times, namely power. ______Like Saddam? Gaddafi, Kim Jong IL? Ayatollah Ali Khamenei? Usama Bin Laden?______

===== CONGRESS Out of Control =====

I am E-Mailing the following plan to all
Senators, Representatives, and Executive Branch.
Feel free to copy it and do the same.
Who knows? It might actually work?
Especially if we start voting them out every term.

MOTO: When in DOUBT, vote them OUT !

PLAN: NinePointPlanToFixUSA
________________________
Contact_Senators
Contact_Representatives
Contact_Executive_Branch
________________________

Thank you for making my point Daniel by not rebutting AP’s or others links, facts, data, and evidence.

David,
I saw the links, facts, data, and news.

(1) But, I’m still not convinced that the
U.S. went into Iraq for the oil. If that were
true, it would make more sense to invade other
countries with more oil (see list below).
We probabaly have almost as much oil in
Alaska (10+billion barrels) than what is left
remaining in Iraq.

(2) I’m still not convinced that the U.S.,
coalition, and Iraqi troops are war mongers.

(3) I’m still not convinced that the U.S.,
coalition, and Iraqi troops are mass murdering
Iraqi people.

________________
I wish the U.S. had not gone into Iraq,
but I’m not convinced yet that it was a bad decision. History will probably decide that,
depending on the outcome in Iraq.

At any rate, now that it has happened, the U.S., coalition, and Iraqi troops should eliminate the
terrorits, make Iraq safe, and then the U.S.
should promptly leave Iraq.
________________

_______ 21 largest oil fields in the World _____
Field Country Estimated_Size
1. Ghawar, Saudi Arabia 75-83 billion barrels
2. Burgan, Kuwait 66-72 billion barrels
3. Bolivar Coastal, Venezuela 30-32 billion barrels
4. Safaniya-Khafji, Saudi Arabia/Neutral Zone 30 billion barrels
5. Rumaila, Iraq 20 billion barrels
6. Tengiz, Kazakstan 15-26 billion barrels
7. Ahwaz, Iran 17 billion barrels
8. Kirkuk, Iraq 16 billion barrels
9. Marun, Iran 16 billion barrels
10. Gachsaran, Iran 15 billion barrels
11. Aghajari, Iran 14 billion barrels
12. Samotlor, West Siberia, Russia 14-16 billion barrels
13. Abqaiq, Saudi Arabia 12 billion barrels
14. Romashkino, Volga-Ural, Russia 12-14 billion barrels (depleted)
15. Chicontepec, Mexico 12 billion barrels
16. Berri, Saudi Arabia 12 billion barrels
17. Zakum, Abu Dhabi, UAE 12 billion barrels
18. Manifa, Saudi Arabia 11 billion barrels
19. Faroozan-Marjan, Saudi Arabia/Iran 10 billion barrels
20. Marlim, Campos, Brazil 10-14 billion barrels
21.Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, USA 9.9 billion barrels

(Numbers in the table above are mostly ranges for estimated ultimate recoverable reserves. Sometimes larger numbers exist and represent original oil — all of which cannot be produced; some of the fields in this list are essentially completely depleted (e.g., Romashkino)).

Ok, here’s some links.
But be WARNed…these are
very shocking and you’ll probably never see these in the news either:

Photo001.jpg
Photo002.jpg
Photo003.jpg
Photo004.jpg
Photo005.jpg

But, I’m still not convinced that the U.S. went into Iraq for the oil. If that were true, it would make more sense to invade other countries with more oil (see list below).

It wasn’t just the oil. The oil is a bonus. :)

And Iraq is sitting on top of the world’s second largest oil reserves - almost as much as Saudi Arabia, and all untapped.

Here’s a nice article about it,

Iraq possesses the world’s second largest proven oil reserves, currently estimated at 112.5 billion barrels, about 11% of the world total and its gas fields are immense as well. Many experts believe that Iraq has additional undiscovered oil reserves, which might raise the total well beyond 250 billion barrels when serious prospecting resumes, putting Iraq closer to Saudi Arabia and far above all other oil producing countries. Iraq’s oil is of high quality and it is very inexpensive to produce, making it one of the world’s most profitable oil sources.