Third Party & Independents: Archives

Mr. Martin, you sound disappointed. As I have argued before, 4 more years leaves no wriggle room for avoiding reponsibility for what happens in those 4 years, especially from the centrists and moderates who supported Bush, not wanting to change things too fast.

Change has been heaped upon all of us at an overwhelming pace. Gay marriage and homosexual rights, was the wrong distinguishing difference between Kerry and Bush in the minds of 3.5 million voters, to justify voting for Bush. There were of course other factors, but, I think in light of the numbers and the moral values issue, this is at the heart of Bush’s 3.5 million vote win.

David —

I think you’re right. That and people’s fear of terrorism. What else could entice so many people to vote against their own self-interest?

Karl Rove truly is an evil genius.

The better campaigner won…
Bush’s Rhetoric - I am great Kerry is terrible
Kerry - Nothing
Bush for all his flaws I think more represents America by supporting big companies and capitalism which is the basis of America while Kerry fights for the poor which is an European concept. I think in any other country Kerry would have won a landslide but America selected the better leader. He may not be the ideal man but he is better….

I believe that bigotry and intolerance has been spewed by the elite media and people like yourself against what this country was founded upon-the Judeo/Christian ethic. Now you fabricate the dimming of our constitutional rights by ignorant Christian ideals-who’s the intolerant one now? May God bless our country, who’s majority subscribes to the notion of high moral ideals!

Alejo-

Karl Rove is less of a genius than it is the fact that the Democratic Party is the “National Party no More.” You guys need to quit screaming at Zel the messenger and read more of his message.

21% put social issues ahead of the economy and terrorism? That’s an amazing stat! Clearly rural America, once absolutely owned by the Democrats, is rejecting the progressive liberal agenda with its secularism and governmental solutions.

Rove is not the genius here. Nixon defined the “Southern Strategy” and Reagan carried it out. And when moderate and conservative voters started leaving the Democratic Party in the 80’s the leaders only paid lip service to the loss. Sam Nunn could have walked away with this election, but where is the Sam Nunn among Democrats in 2004?

The GOP merely accommodated the conservative voters. It’s not a good fit for most of us here in rural America, but it is the only alternative at the national level to the leadership of Kennedy, Daschle, and Kerry.

George —

Okay, we won’t blame it on Rove. We’ll blame it on the overwhelming intolerance and bigotry of the American public.

Nice. I find it increasingly sad that people are unwilling to admit that those they disagree with can believe what they do without being idiots and bigots. What’s worse is that I genuinely feel that you mean it and aren’t just upset.

Hey, I’m a registered republican from Florida stationed overseas. But I was deployed until just a day ago. I didn’t have time to send in my absentee ballot. So, I didn’t vote. Will I die now?

Rhinehold —

I didn’t call anyone an idiot. I am definitely upset. And I’m sorry, but I do believe that a president who wants to amend the Constitution so that it denies rights to a particular section of the population is a bigot. I know you disagree and I know I’m speaking more harshly than I usually do. I’m just horribly disappointed with my country right now.

I agree with David and Alejo, but in no way do I believe that liberal voters do not lack the understanding of our constitutional principles also.

Alejo
“What else could entice so many people to vote against their own self-interest?”

- Saying this is totally based on opinion. Most probably felt they were voting FOR their own self-interest. I also do not consider these voters to be ignorant as Mr. Martin does either.

If this election ends up with a Bush win, maybe the democrats should re-think their strategy. As you two stated, the moral issue and terrorism seems to be what will be the major factors in the outcome and because of this, I believe this should tell the Democratic party that America does not want a liberal president.
I truly believe that with a more moderate or “true” democratic candidate, Bush would have lost.

Alejo, I recall you asking me a favor to not vote for Bush. Well, I honored it, but more importantly, I did myself a favor and stayed true to my principles and voted for Peroutka.

Yet there is good news … I hear pot is legal in Alaska! (sigh)

This “election” proves a few things that I’ve long known and hated about this country:

* Rednecks have the most effective adult movies.

* Stupid people breed faster than intelligent people. (more of a consequence than an effect)

* If God does exsist, then he knows he messed up and can’t wait for the end. If he does not exsist, then there are plenty of people determined to make sure he does, hence the latter.

* Money can’t buy ya brains.

* War is good, but global never ending war is even better. An all-out worldwide resource war would totally rock d00d!

* Democracy and freedom will be spread throughout the world, whether you want it or not, whether you earned it or not, and whether or not it works.

* 49% of the people think democracy doesn’t work, the other 51% say it does … the I’s have it. (That’s a hyperbole I think)

* “The land of the free, and the home of the brave” actually means ‘The land of the mob, and the homo phobic.’

* Tom Daschle gave up a long time ago.

* Heck, wid awl dis mideast oil money, we can buy a new ozone layers. - President G.W. Bash

* There’s a good reason why Canada doesn’t envy our beutiful weather.

* Ann Coulter is too wierd to live, and too rare to shut up. Alan Combs however, has volunteered to sit quietly.

* Bill O’Reilly is not, and never has been in the republican party - but they did create him in their lab.

* It’s official: there ARE a disproportionate number of gay folks on TV, but their appearances are dwindling on the Jerry Springer show.

Okay, I’m done. Really … I’m finished.

I’ve decided to reject politics for at least the next four years. Actually, I’m seriously considering an exile to the last frontier in the deflation of freedom - Alaska. Sure, it’s often cold and miserable, and the sun will probably drive me nuts for a few months, but who cares? I’ll be stoned sideways.

Goodbye everyone! Enjoy the ensuing chaos and blame. Hope most of you survive it.

“Now you fabricate the dimming of our constitutional rights by ignorant Christian ideals-who’s the intolerant one now?”

Isn’t Bush the one who fabricated a Christian persona, to reel in anyone who would believe him? “I’m a Christian, people, God is on my side!” YAAAAAY! People are gullible, frankly. It seems all the presidential candidates needed to do was pick all the most popular perspectives in America and gesture them proudly. A free Arnold Schwarzenegger to sell this magazine as well, by the way.

Will —

You are one funny guy. Thanks for the much-needed chuckle.

kctim —

Apparently you weren’t the only one who took my remark to imply ignorance. I didn’t mean it that way despite my disappointment this morning. What I meant was that the American voters have, based on poll information, voted more on issues of “morality” — which is to say, imposing one’s morality on others — than they have on economy or educational funding or any of the other things which (I think) should be important to an individual. Why is it more important to abolish a right that has been legal for years than it is to have a job? I just don’t understand that.

And, as you know, I disagree with the idea that John Kerry is a liberal. On most issues he’s more conservative than Bush is, particularly economically.

I’m glad you chose the vote that best reflected your views. I did too, and I hope the rest of America did as well. In time I’ll learn to live with their (our) decision.

Folks we welcome your comments provided you dispense with the characterizations of others as idiots, stupid, or whatever. Please critique the message, not the messenger to protect your invitation to participate here at WatchBlog.

I think people who oppose Bush are looking at this all wrong. This election is NOT just a referendum on George W. Bush and all of his policies. We had two major candidates, and the american people compared them. I believe what happend was that while Bush was unpopular with many many americans, Kerry was just much more objectionable (this is the case for me- I voted for a third party- but most do not go this root).

So instead of throwing up your hands and declaring this country gone, you should think about bringing foward a candidate that actually represents the American people, rather than the far left wing. Bush, much to my dismay, has actually governed rather to the center. Kerry has spent his career on the left. That is why Bush won, and why Kerry lost.

Alejo
Your post did not imply ignorance to me. It was VEM’s following statement that did.

“How closed is the mind, how cold and ignoble is the heart that seeks to deny freedom and equality to all because of ignorance?”

I understand you don’t believe kerry to a liberal, but there is a pretty acurate saying in the military:

“to beat the enemy, you must think like the enemy.”

To the left, kerry isn’t very liberal. To the right and those of us somewhere else on the spectrum, he is. A more moderate candidate would have won. No recount would have been needed. IMO

Mr. Remer—

I am very disappointed in that half of the American electorate that voted for Bush. The same argument, namely that change was coming too fast—was used to justify the continued subjugation of Black Americans at the dawn of the Civil Rights movement. It is a shame and an embarrassment that American citizens have to take to the street to gain that with the constitution confers upon them by right!

I don’t really expect anything other then business as usual for the Bush Administration. I can now envision both the Marriage and Abortion Amendments to being passed and added to our constitution. And how long now before the Chief Justice steps down? I shutter to think who the Bushies will seek to replace him with.

Fuedelism disquised as Fundamentalism has won. Osama has won today.

Comment deleted for name calling. WatchBlog Manager

Comment deleted for name calling. Watchblog Manager

I am Shammed to be an American today. This country is going down the tubes.. Soon it will be one giant un-educated inner city ghetto with a super power aristocrat. Basically we are squeezing out the middle class and re-creating the division of the monarchist past. The kind of society where the power, riches and government all sleep together against the rest of us. Once this gets out to the world that the American Dream is becoming more of an American Nightmare so long goes the land of hope and the free… Look at history, every super-power has their limited time on top and then the ignorance and greed starts to rip them apart until it falls and the power then shifts to an unsuspected place. I mean that is how this country started in the first place and to say it won’t happen again is just plan IGNORANT. Which this entire statement pretty much divides up the nation. Those who are totally against my comments and think it is simply ranting are exactly the kind of folks who listen to Bush’s lies and “believe”. Note I use the word Believe because that is what these people run on, simple unreliable, un-provable beliefs. When stuck with hard facts like the ones I point out above these people simply laugh off the idea or some sort of other psychological defense mechanisms kick in to prevent them from realizing the obviousness of the TRUTH. For the rest of you who read this and understand then you my friends are the 49% of the nation who came in for Kerry last night. Unfortunately these very simple views have not fully migrated inward to the “land-locked” states of America where the folks are easily tricked and manipulate since they have basic IGNORANT predictable minds. I almost have to give Bush credit for playing you all so well. When you awake from this “smoke and mirror” illusion and see the Truth of how things are and it starts to hit you deep inside you will know what I talk about. Open your eyes…

He had a dubious service record, if at all, and we’ve voted him the commander in chief;
He diverted our chase after Bin Ladin and sent troops into to Iraq (where thousands turned terrorists), and we’ve given him 4 more years to fight the war against terror;
We are a great people, we will sustain, even after 4 more years.

Two words that made people vote for Bush, “President Kerry”. That alone would have done it. Couple that with the fact that George W. Bush is resolute and strong. You may not agree with him, but you know where he stands. Kerry was trying to be all things to all people, never took a principled stance on the most important issues of our time, war and peace. Thank God that President Bush will remain in office for four more years. I have no doubt that he will continue to work tirelessly to keep this country safe. And for all you haters and Bush-bashers out there, I think you guys are being a little extreme and exaggerating what this election will mean for us. After the hate and vitriol that the left demonstrated against the President, how could you guys realistically think that kind of message, one based on negativity and pessimism, would endear you to the American public? All I can say is I’m ecstatic about the results last night, and I am very hopeful about the future of this country. God bless.

V. Edward,

I share your thoughts and your feelings today.
The principles that founded America will now begin to fade and dissappear bit by bit, until the government becomes unrecognizable to those of us who truly respected the brilliance of the men who formed it, and cherished the meaning of what We the People were supposed to stand for. I am saddened and depressed that the neo-cons and the Religious Right have won and will proceed to remake our country into a nation of intolerance, bigotry and injustice.
Some of you on the left who read this blog daily might have wondered over the months since I began posting here why I talked so much about the founding of the nation and the sentiments of the founders regarding religion. You also might have thought it was a bit strange how often I focused on arguing over civil rights and abortion rights issues. Perhaps now you will understand why I did so.
Because I read so many newspapers and magazines from Right (almost as many as I do from the Left), I had an idea that this election was going to be all about conservative and religious values, rather than more important issues. Like our unnecessary war, or the insane deficit, or the masses of the uninsured, or the loss of our manufacturing base, or the outsourcing of jobs and the creation of none to replace them.

The “moral majority” has won. They will read their bibles and insist that the nation was founded by Christians as rabid as themselves - not realizing their ignorance. And we who know better will have to stand by and watch while they destroy our Constitution and all it has stood for since 1787.

They have elected a diabolical administration that has made the most disastrous and irresponsible decisions in the history of the country, as well as the most diplomatically inept, inarticulate, and moronic president that has ever lived on Pennsylvania Avenue.

I hope they will enjoy the self-fullfilling prophesy of their Armageddon - and I hope they rot in Hell for wanting to “bring it on” while dragging the rest of us with them.

Comment deleted for name calling. __Watchblog Manager

I haven’t seen or heard so much whining, lying and forecasts of doom since clinton won re-election. Only then, it was the Republicans who were afraid of the socialist agenda that has been put forth by the Democrats.

The Democratic party needs to wake up. Mainstream America does not support liberal policies.

The American people need to wake up. There is no real difference between the Republicans and Democrats of today.

www.infowars.com

It’s not that the american people voted for Bush because they look out for the interests of big business. It’s that they believe in his moral stance on many issues.
Big corporations and the majority of their stockholders are in large cities where the democrats, who are not scared to take their own big corporate money, stake their strong hold.
People talk about moving away from traditional american values but actually by the rural, predominately christian vote dominating this election, the american people are showing that they are moving back to real american values, not the ultra-left wing socialist direction John Kerry represents!

Sarah,
With all due respect, that your last statement sounded so astute I thought it was coming from Theresa Heinz Kerry’s lips.
Thank you for making yourself so transparent.

My amazement that the left attempts to claim the mantle of our founding is amazing. our framers believed in individual rights and individual responsibility- the modern welfare state would anenthema to what their project was about. In fact, the constitution was in very veyr large part in response to debtor relief laws in the individual states. The founders believed in Natural Rights (see decleration of indepedence), while the left has moved toward the exact opposite of that (relavitism- of which “the right to choose an abortion” is the highest example of). That is not to say that the republicans represent the founder’s views very much- especially since they have basically given away the small government argument (at least Bush has). The founders were believers in freedom and individual responsibility- not the uniting function of democrats which seems to be some vesion of an amorphous “social justice.”

In the end, both fundamental christians and liberal-redistributionists falsely claim the founders mantles. Until both realize that their views are contrary to liberty and personal responsibility that were at the heart of our foundation, they will each be arguing in the name of mythical “founders” that never were.

This election has shown how stupid majority of Americans are. They are ignorant and stupid.

The arrogance of the left is appalling to me. Many in here are claiming that those who have a different opinion are just stupid. The height of arrogance is to call more than half of the population “stupid”. This is simply stupidity in and of itself.

The Democratic party has to face that it has been losing seats in the Senate and the House since 1988. These are local elections as opposed to national elections, and the Dems need to look within to understand why this is happening.

Two options: A) The left assumes the Republican ideas are inferior, yet the public seems to be buying them, hence Republicans must be better marketers.

B) The left assumes the electorate is full of idiots who arent smart enough to know how to vote.

Either way, they impugn someone, which obviously hasnt worked well for them.

AMEN MISHA

You pro Kerry folk, go have a seat beside your grandmother or grandfather, mother or father…..get a notebook out……and take some notes. Let them teach you about morals and most important of all, “VALUES”. Take these notes and put them towards educating your own children in the future. And remember….this election was won because there are other people in the United States besides the ones on TV. There are people with good American values. If you haven’t met these people, get in a car and drive. Stop in small towns, open your mind, and speak to the common folk. Oh, and get out your notebook again and take some more notes.

To the Demoncrats,

If this great country is so out of step with the rest of the world, if we are speeding headlong into the darkness, if we are dominated by “intolerant, unjust, ignorant, stupid bigots” Christians?

Why are so many from all corners of the world lining up to get in? You see, people of the world (other than the ruling liberal elite) understand the true meaning of liberty and freedom. They can not wait to be able to express their opinion and cast their vote without worry of government repercussions.

Just because you reside in America does not make yu an American. Being an American is an attitude and a way of life. There are multiple industrialized countries throughout Europe, South America with governments that hold dear the ideas you express. I do not see many of you packing up and flocking to these Nirvanas.

Misha—

We have had this discussion before and we are destined to keep having it I suppose. While I agree that the Founding Fathers championed the tights of the individual and freedom, they also believed in social justice. Let’s face it the constitution as framed was a document for, by, of white men. We as a nation have moved away from that model because the Constitution is a living document amenable to change when the electorate demands it.

I do not subscribe to the strict constructionist model that those of the extreme seem the want to champion. Human societies change and grow and the documents and laws that govern men must be able to change and grow as well. To do otherwise is to invite chaos. And while I concede that the Pre-amble to the constitution is open to interpretation, I and many like many believe that humans come together in a society to “promote the general welfare” of all; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Yes look out after yourself, but we each have a duty and responsibility as human being to watch out after or fellow man. If not what come together is a society in the first place?

V. Edward

My mum declared over dinner this evening that America will get what it deserves. If Americans vote for Bush then they deserve him.

I was about to argue that but then I stopped and thought about it.

Yes, America will get what it deserves.

Good luck all of you. See you in four years time.

Why would anyone want to vote for Bush - he has lied to all of America, - he has started an unecessary war for his own benefit - everytime I see another American life taken in Iraq, I feel so disturbed and sad to think that another family will be without a loved one - for no good reason.
In Canada, anyone I talk with think that Bush is a stupid, war mongrol that can’t speak english and seems totally uneducated. If we had to vote Kerry would have gotten in with an overwhelming majority - what were you thinking??????????

KK-Canada

Did someone change the Constitution to read, “We the Straight People…?” I thought the Constitution was for everybody. Guess not….

Good thing Candians dont have votes in America under the U.S. constitution… seems to me you guys have plenty of problems in your country you need to worry about than to bash on America for its choice of leader.

V. Edward,

We as a nation have moved away from that model because the Constitution is a living document amenable to change when the electorate demands it.

There in lies the problem. We have reached a point where it is no longer the electorate that demand changes, it is the Liberal Judges appointed to the bench that “legislate” these changes.

These judges are not subject to the will of the electorate as they are appointed for life. Thank goodness that Bush will have an opportunity to nominate more than one judge to the Supreme Court and with Tom Daschle out of the way we can get the Federal Judges confirmed. We can move back to a more logical center and away from the radical left leaning judiciary rulings of the past several years.

Bravo, G. You condensed in 12 lines exactly who most of us americans are. We are human beings who have been raised to respect others and treat them as you would like to be treated. President Bush isn’t perfect, but who is? If Kerry would have had an actual platform instead of running down everything the President said or did, and alienating over 3/4 of this country with his condescending attitude, he might have actually had a shot.

Some people wonder when we as a country started becoming so polarized. I lay it right at President Clinton’s feet. He treated the White House like his own personal timeshare getaway, and believed because he was the most powerful leader on earth, he could get away with anything, and excuse any behavior away. “It depends on what the meaning of IS is…”. Some people actually started believing that with certain behavior comes with no responsibility. That isn’t the way I was raised, and isn’t the way the majority of regular americans were raised either. You can believe what you like, but at least have the decency to respect that the other person might have a different point of view, and open your mind to that fact.

I have to say if find the debate between misha and edward interesting. I have to say that personally i find the strict-constructionist veiw one I cannot stand behind, after all, if you look at the wording of the constitution, the document itself really doesn’t protect our rights as well as we have been taught. It is the congress, president, and supreme court that protect our rights. However, I do admit that the Librals cannot claim the mantle of the founding fathers, the constitution was created more to limit the spread of democracy.

Misha:
“My amazement that the left attempts to claim the mantle of our founding is amazing.”

And I’m equally amazed that you, a Libertarian, would make a claim upon the founders! Especially since everybody knows that only difference between a Libertarian and an Anarchist is MONEY!

What’s the problem? Surely not GW?

All of the world needs freedom, even if about a hundred thousand recently dead Iraquis might not agree.

Hail to King George! But, please keep him locked safe and silent in the US.

Thanks from the rest of the world.

Misha:
“My amazement that the left attempts to claim the mantle of our founding is amazing.”

Your amazement is amazing? Well, I happen to be very amused by the fact that you, a Libertarian, would try make a claim upon the founders. Especially since we all know the only difference between a Libertarian and an Anarchist is money!

I was not enthusiastic, but I did want Kerry to win. However, you’re article above is EXACTLY why he did not win. You don’t understand conservatives, and you don’t want to. You want to write them off as a bunch of bigoted, intolerant, ignorant kooks.

Get a clue. They have their flaws, and I disagree with them on just about everything. They do not choose these positions primarily out of bigotry or even ignorance. Sure, the bigots go there to join in. But they are not the norm.

Have you even spent real time with these people? Do you even know what they act like or say or think when you see them one on one? Most of you do not, and thus we see the great “red vs blue” divide.

Your own bigotry and intolerance is as much a problem as theirs. Humility is so seriously lacking in this country on ALL levels that it seems we are inevitably destined towards a rather serious and potentially disasterous humbling that we won’t be able to ignore

John

Kirk —

We can move back to a more logical center and away from the radical left leaning judiciary rulings of the past several years.

I’ve got news for you: Bush isn’t a centrist, and if you think he is then you aren’t either.

It’s a sad day for this ONCE great nation. I feel betrayed and disgusted that I share soil with souls who believe that Bush is the better choice for our land. I’m not a Kerry fanatic by any means but change is good.
Four more years of sending jobs like mine to India and big business tax cuts to do it.

I’m embarrased to be an American today.

Alejo,

I never said Bush is a centrist nor am I. I am proud to proclaim that I am a died in the wool conservative.

My point about moving back to the center is because of the fact that judges are appointed for life. We can not get rid of the current liberal judges so Bush’s conservative appointments will work to cancell them out. We will not get to the side of conservatism but will definately balance the judicial discourse and rulings toward the middle.

Is this a sad day for The U.S.A.? Yes it is because we did not provide better choices for the leader of this country. Talk to most people and they really did not like either candidate. What I find most appalling is the arrogance of the Democratic party of just strolling out a candidate with the Agenda of simply “Hello I am John Kerry and I am not George Bush so vote for me.” One other thing that may have had a boomerang effect is the liberal elitist (actors musicians etc.) who were constantly showing their faces trying to tell us all how to vote. Midwesterners resented constant opinions from these people. These people do not have any idea what it is like to be out in the real world, yet they want to tell us who to vote for.

God is real. We are really one nation under God. When men or women turn their affections toward their own kind, it is an abomination before the God that created them. If you don’t have sight to see what you are really doing, it doesn’t mean that you are right. It just means you don’t know any better. God will forgive any “gays” if they will repent, the same as any sinners(myself included). That is why this vote was decided before it was cast. God will always win because he is always good. Turn from all sin, and be saved.

I woke up to find that that 51% voted for the nuclear bomb that maybe in some ways will clean this shit up and put it back the way it ought to be and I say this because half of America voted against our healthcare and every important environmental issue and without either of those it doesn’t really matter how much land and coorporations you can fit into the Middle East now does it Mr. President! I also find it interesting that the over all world vote wanted Kerry but that the overall American vote wanted Bush, and if you can see that the more progressive, cultured, and open minded states voted Kerry. The gun totin, american way only way, rural, think there is a man in the sky crowd voted for a butcher of the English language. Good luck America!

Will,

Separation of church and state was a very important issue in the founding of our country. (See the first amendment, it’s not just freedom of religion, it’s freedom FROM religion) As we continue to blur those lines by banning gay marriage and abortion, we will progress socially backwards and relenquish more and more of our freedoms. As our country makes laws based on religion (which both of the aforementioned issues are solely dependant on) the cohesiveness of the 1st amendent will begin to fade. The cool part is, the same book of the bible (Leviticus) that mentions homosexuality being an abomination also says that it’s ok to have slaves, so long as they come from neighboring nations. I can’t decide if I’m going to buy a Canadian, or a Mexican. There are so many factors that go into picking a good slave. (I do enjoy Mexican cooking though — okay, my mind’s made up!)

God may be real, in your mind, and good for you. But what’s not real is the work of fiction you excerpt only parts of to justify only the things your preacher tells you still apply.

Do you wear glasses or contacts? If so, you are forbidden from approaching the altar of God. You are also forbidden from wearing clothing made from more than one kind of thread. Do you trim your beard or the hair at your temples, if so, you are sinning right now. Hold still a moment so we can stone you to death.

Have you read the bible? Or are you just spoon fed the parts your preacher still thinks apply to your life? Why are some parts relevent and others aren’t? Is this partial interpretation and hypocrisy a good foundation for government?

Imposing religious based policy on the population is never the way. See the 21st Amendment, the Spanish Inquisition, or the Salem Witch Trials for more details. Drinking still occurred during prohibition (and made the mobsters rich), abortions will still happen
when they are banned, and gays will still just keep showing up even after they are all rounded up into concentration camps and exterminated.

God may forgive you for your gibberish, but I doubt I will.

What a shameful day to be an American. Shrub now has the green light to do whatever he wants. Our country will indeed suffer. Nothing good will come from a second term.

Kerry wasn’t the most ideal candidate, but as South Park said, a political race is always a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Frankly, I’ve had all the turd sandwich I can eat for the last 4 years and… at least a douche is clean.

Americans are obviously going to have to learn the hard way. When the poor get poorer, crime goes up. Shrub did create a few jobs — McDonald’s is well staffed now. Luckily, you can still stash away enough cash from your McDonald’s paycheck to afford an assault weapon, which is now legal again, thanks to Shrub.

On the topic of jobs, how many people have been unemployed SO long they aren’t tracked as an unemployment statistic? How many people still have a job but are miserable because their employers know that employees are trapped by a failed job market? Working a little overtime and not getting paid for it? Thanks Shrub.

Looking at the county breakdown in most every state, it’s obvious that urban dwellers get it. Chicago, NYC, LA, San Fran, Seattle, Denver, Philly, Miami, D.C. (keep listing on your own if you like)… every one of the counties these cities are in, HUGE Kerry support. These are the people who have good reason to be worried about a terrorist attack, these are the people who largely are used and abused by large corporations, these are the people who deal with the criminal fallout of bad economic times.

Residents of Xenia, OH or Colby, KS being worried about swarms of suicide bombers is ridiculous. But the Bush administration managed to sell that idea nonetheless. Heaven forbid Al Queda get their hands on some of the unaccounted-for nuclear (Nucular, for the Shrub fans) material. I’d hate to have a front row seat for “The Sum of All Fears, the stage production”.

It’s fun to hear that Shrub is a “strong leader” with “strong morals”. The last time I can remember a truly strong leader, with strong religious moral convictions, with strong intent to make the world a safer, better place, at any cost, was in the late 1930’s - early 40’s…. in a place referred to as the Fatherland. I’m thinking an update to our flag where the stars are replaced with swastikas, one for each state that ratifies discrimination, might be in order. Then the repugnantcan-dominated congress can vote Shrub in as dictator and we can really get this party started!

Speaking of strong morals and “real American values”, were we electing President of the United States, Führer of the United States or Minister of the United States? Presuming the latter, how does a draft-dodgin’, coke snortin’, alcoholic liar fit into that image? All I ask is, if we’re going to become a Christian state, could we have that disputed 10 commandments monument from Montgomery, Alabama installed in the oval office? I think Shrub zoned out on a couple of those commandments when they were read to him in church. Isn’t there a commandment that goes — Thou shall not fib? or is it lie? Yeah, Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Guess we don’t live close enough to the white house to be considered neighbors… bummer.

Those states most at risk from terrorist attack voted for Kerry. The states which generate the majority of tax revenue voted Kerry; the states which are the beneficiaries of subsidies and federal assistance voted Bush. The 51% that voted Bush represent only 18% of the population.

A couple of comments:

1. Sorry for the confusion, I was actually responding to Adrienne, who I believe has a very ahistorical view of our framers (which I think E.M. shares). Also, libertarianism is nothing like anarchy. It is a devotion to the principles of life, liberty and the RIGHT to pursuit whatever ends you want as long as you not hurting anyone else. It is the foundation of our country, which both sides try to erode when they want to re-order other people’s lives for them.

2. In terms of my view of constitutional construction, I get frustrated that because I seem to only argue with people from the left about constitutional interpretation on this board. I actually do not like very strict constructionist judging (when I argue with arch conservatives, I am on the other side of this argument). I think judges need to have some leeway in interpreting the goal of an amendment, even if the principles weren’t fully spelled out at the framing (the perfect example is anti-miscegenation laws that co-existed with the passage of the 14th amendment, while obviously being in contradiction to the principle of that amendment). On the other hand, I do not like the liberal trend (that my far left-wing con law prof actually pointed out) of making every issue they cannot win in the popular vote a constitutional issue- abortion just being the poster child. I think “declaring” rights left and right, without allowing the political process to function, especially when those rights find no basis in constitutional text, intentions, or history, is very dangerous indeed.

3. While I think the founders are great and all, and I also think my historical analysis of them is far more sound than Adrienne or E.M. (I did write my thesis on the framing and am a history major focusing on that time period), I do not think the argument about what our framers ACTUALLY saw as correct is all that important in the broad view (it is important in constitutional interpretation, of course). The reason I cite the framers is because I think they had it right on many fronts- especially the notion that a country was brought together to protect people’s RIGHTS rather than to redistribute goodies for some vague “social justice.” I think the framers seriously messed up in many areas- from slavery- which has been solved- to the electoral college and the Senate, which have not been solved.
I think we need to do less arguing about what the framers actually intended for us (which you guys should want, since you are wrong about what they actually wanted), and talk about whether their views are correct. For one, I think a nation founded upon individual rights is far preferable to one founded upon collective duties based on every fellow citizen’s needs. Maybe its because I grew up in a country where that principle was actually put into affect. I would prefer if this nation continued to honor individual rights- both economic and political- rather than going the collectivist way- whether it is the war on terror or the war on poverty- I think the price is too high.

4. There is a great amount of anger and hate from the left this morning- most of it directed at “religious” conservatives- and I understand their anger (especially as it relates to those terrible homophobic amendments). But you must remember that there are people on the other side who have thought these arguments out and believe them based on logic and reason, and you should not sweep them into the same trash heap while trying to make yourself feel better. There are many good non-religious arguments to oppose abortion, to support social security reform, to want lower taxes, to honor the 2nd amendment to… you know what I mean. There is a strong irrational segment in each political party (I can see no real difference between religious fanatics and Michael Moore-types), what we need to do is have a political discourse between the thinking people in both parties.

I didn’t trust Bush when He was running in 2000 and he’s done nothing as president to change my mind about him, but the alternative always looked like the flip side of the same coin to me. Neither inspire confidence,IMHO. However, what is frightening to me is not that Bush won re-election, but rather that he appears to have done it legitimately this time. For better or worse, the majority of voting U.S. citizens (however slight) just endorsed a foreign policy agenda that instills fear and uneasiness in people throughout the world. The perception has gone from having believed the presidency stolen by a mad man to one of Bush being elected by a nation gone mad. Who cares? We all will if our leadership continues to pursue the agenda for a “New American Century.” I predict the militarization of the EU under the guise of “defense forces” within the next two years and friendlier relations between Russia and China in the near future in response to the outcome of this election. And I thought the world was a dangerous place already…but then, how could I when I live in a bubble?…POP! Hope my prediction is wrong.

Quote for the (Sad) Day:
“The people have voted…and now they will be punished.” Ed Koch, Fmr Mayor of New York City

“and if you can see that the more progressive, cultured, and open minded states voted Kerry. The gun totin, american way only way, rural, think there is a man in the sky crowd voted for a butcher of the English language. Good luck America!”
—posted by TJ in NJ

Why is it that the states that voted bush, by voting bush, suddenly became less progressive, less cultured, and less open-minded. I think your statement shows your own closed-mindedness.

Also, since it is obvious you haven’t looked at the christian religion recently, perhaps you should. It is quite a bit more complex than a group of people who “think there is a man in the sky.” After all, I could butcher many other beliefs. I could for example say that Atheists believe our grand parents popped out of monkeys or I could say that muslims hate and want to kill Americans.

Kirk,

“Being an American is an attitude and a way of life.”

You’re right being an American is a way of life, I just don’t like the attitude.

I agree that the Founding Fathers championed the tights of the individual

I appreciated the mental image given by this typo.

Thanks, V. Edward!

“Why is it that the states that voted bush, by voting bush, suddenly became less progressive, less cultured, and less open-minded.”

You forgot less intelligent. I mean, listen to yourself. Remember that time that Georgia tried to ban evolution? Just because many of the residents there don’t participate in evolution is no reason to ban it.

The part I love about threads like this, is that the conservative religious people want the whole world to slow down and adjust to them. Remarks like too much change too fast, etc, underscore this.

Newsflash: The rest of the world isn’t going to slow down and try to understand the backwards bumpkins in the United States, they are just going to pass us by. We better hope we have a lot of brawn when the rest of the world decides to come claim our lands, because we sure aren’t going to outwit them with a President that isn’t even fluent in one language.

It’s been a while, but I do remember the complexity of religion. There’s the 10% of your money they want, the bake sales, the ice cream socials, dunkin kids in cold water, being conditioned to judge everyone around you, did I miss anything?

Hi Folks!
At first excuse my english, I’m no native speaker, i’m a European living in PRoChina…I stumbled over this discussion during my search for news regarding to the outcome of the US election. So, I have to say, I’m surprised. I always wondered how it had happened that a man like GW Bush had become the President of the world’s most powerful nation and now he managed it to get re-elected, I’m impressed. Either he had really done something good for your people or he had done a good job in fooling your people, I can’t say, due to that I have not a real profound knowledge of the american institutions. But judging over that what I’ve read or heard, mostly in non-american medias, about the Patriot Act and his demeanor in international economics, foreign policies and environmental issues, I am worried, and believe that he is just a puppy for his neo-conservative gang. So I can’t take his role of being the lonesome cowboy guarding over the world and delivering freedom, at all costs. So i just wonder why you are so gung ho to struggle and push for the right thing in the wrong direction? Trying to exercise vengeance, delivering democracy&freedom to people who need bread and medicne instead of bombs(, but I have to admit that removing Saddam was a good thing.)
Well, we europeans need you americans and I believe the world needs a nation willing and having the ability to take the lead, but I think MrBush and his gang are on the wrong way. I have to say, that I count myself lucky, that I had the chance to grow up in a peaceful and democratic country, due to the sacrifice of many, many american, british and russian lives and efforts and I have to be grateful that there was a will and the power to do the right thing at the right time, by the right people.
But today the american government is dividing the world with statements like :” With or against us!” What is that for? Maybe MrBush is handling the domestic affairs pretty good, so there is a reason for another run, but I haven’t seen a hint for that here or somewhere else. Well, at the end of the day I guess the american people had their reasons for voting or not voting their president, at least 60% I hope, but I hope they’re not as fooled and betrayed as the a large part of world feels, too. But nevermind. The 4 years will pass, so will Bush, but you guys and girls will still be there and practice democracy (, I wish so), like the most of the earth’s population is not able to. So that’s what I wanted to say, not much but enough for now! Best Greetings from the other side of the world. Jan

hello all
i have read most of the 61 comments here and i have one question for each of you….
why is it that you cant get the idea that this is how many americans believe, you all sound like wounded animals and dissillusioned that people dont hold to your morals and ideas, you sound almost helpless and defeated, maybe the rest of america is not voting against their best intrests but in what they believe, maybe not all americans have never held your ideas, is this bad? I think not this is a free america for free thought yours and mine and theirs, and yet you sound weak and fallen, well instead of whining about how bad it all is and screaming how horrrible it all is try to use rational thought and explain your postition and be happy that your in a country where you and i can be friends and live together happily and still disagree, you dont always have to be right you know, maybe the rest of americans are right and we are the wakos, maybe there is no right answer and we try our best, and if you dont like get the hell out of my country the land of the free and the brave.

And to the comment of “Derek”:
“We all will if our leadership continues to pursue the agenda for a “New American Century.” I predict the militarization of the EU under the guise of “defense forces” within the next two years and friendlier relations between Russia and China in the near future in response to the outcome of this election.”

I know that there are endeavors inside the EU to form an own, independent form NATO, military antipol to underlay their opinion and point of view, because they don’t see another way to get some attention by the american government. That’s the way and the reason other states, like Russia and China, or India, Pakistan are so fond of their nuclear technology - scared of the “New American Century”, enforced by an unpredictable president like MrBush jr.
Noone in the EU likes to build up a new “European Army” or something, but if the american administration only listens to states with a challanging military force and nuclear bombs, the EU will go for exact that.

you know….i consider myself to be of good moral character…

i try to respect people…and let them have their opinions…

i try to be polite, and open minded

i believe that it is not my business what anyone else does in their home. it’s their life….let them deal with it as they may.

there are lots of people i don’t like, to be sure, plenty of em, however, when i have some bible-thumper tell me that some of my friends are sinners cause they are gay…well that just bugs the crap out of me…

and then, when they tell me that i’m going to hell because i dont go to church and accept jesus as my personal savior….well…..fine…..

i’ll be enjoying martini’s in hell with all the other millions on the planet….at least i wont have to listen to you people anymore…plus i hear the 9th ring has a kickin backroom…

Amazing, once again we have seen the mask ripped off of the “tolerant” ones. Tolerance, as it is preached by the left today, evidently has a qualifier: you must agree with me. Keep it up, I say. The more liberal “tolerance” is exposed as the fraud it is, the faster the American people will push the self-righteous left into the corner they belong in. Safely penned in to cause no more harm to this nation.

Instead of whining, crying and thinking its the end of the world, Democrats should be re-evaluating their party.
As is evident from the county by county breakdown of red and blue and who is in control of the house, senate and Oval office, the people do not want a liberal left wing running the country.
Get rid of the liberals and their dividing views and start being true democrats.
Liberalism is not only bad for our Republic, its liberal candidate had no chance to beat Bush.

A strong Democrat would have won in a landslide.

Interesting. I’ve posted about 5 responses to some of the more wild-eyed posts here and they’ve all disappeared. Let’s try another tactic:

You’re right, Kirk! Being born in America, paying taxes in America, and voting in America doesn’t make anyone an American! Only people who think and act the right way are Americans, and we should kick all the rest of those fakers outta here!

You’re right, Michael! The Democratic party, which says it fights for the rights of blacks, women and poor people is a fraud! A mask of tolerance! The real party of tolerance is the party that wants to deny gays the right to marry and force women to bear children they can’t afford to raise!

You’re right, kctim! We should get rid of those liberals! They’re annoying anyway, always talking about rights, and the environment, and poor people — and who wants to hear THAT crap? Let’s get behind the party that really knows where it’s at — rich, white, and ready to kill!

I’m more relieved that Kerry and Edwards (and Tom Daschele) lost, than Bush won. I can understand people not liking Bush and some of his policies, but have difficulty understanding how they could still prefer Kerry and Edwards.

Fortunately, there are enough people whose values don’t resonate with the likes of Kerry and Edwards (both lawyers), Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, Daschele, Gephardt, Charlie Rangel, Pelosi, Graham, Howard Dean, and other ilk.

Also, Michael Moore, Bruce Springsteen, and Barbara Streisand aren’t saying much today.

Also, if you look at the area of each state (Red vs Blue), you’ll see that most of the area of each state is Red (Republican). The Blue (Dumicrat) areas are in the inner cities and southern US borders. How revealing ?

A vote for Bush does not entail unilateral support for his actions and/or policies. Bush recieved my vote because of his continued protection and support of the second amendment as it was written in the Constitution. Kerry did not recieve my vote due to his detailed Senate voting history for, IMO, useless and irresponsible gun control restrictions.

Just beause I chose one candidate over another in no way signifies my complete, blind, and utter support for each and every one of his policies. I’m sure that this statement holds true for many of Bush’s supporters here at WatchBlog.com.

@james: i agree with you !

What is next…Iran, Korea, Syria, France, Germany?

Bush was re-elected because the majority of his target voters are politically uneducated respectively religious fundamentalists.
There’s no religious difference between these voters and an arab fundamentalist. It sounds so ridiculous when Bush talks about morals,
when he is the one with a list of immoral incidents in his life. Someone please give me one adequate, political correct and economical benefiting reason to have this radical figure back?

Just look at the “political” reasons why they have voted for him. Reasons an intellectual, cultured person wouldn’t understand.
This president doesn’t make it safer for the nation. Matter of fact he will continue to act as a barbarian and spark hatred in the world.

They called Sen. Kerry too elitist, to much of an aristocrat…..huh? Who wants a simple-minded president who can’t even represent nor articulate himself in-/outside the US like a statesman should?

mija,

The election is over finally.
Continued Bush bashing sounds like whining.
Bush isn’t perfect by a long ways, but
the values of Kerry and Edwards simply do not resonate with most people. To me, more so than
past elections, it’s very revealing about which
candidate a person preferred.

Nevertheless, the last thing this country
needs is a do-nothing-liberal-career-politican and an ambulance chaser in the white house.

Misha—

Perhaps we should allow that our world views are different, and therefore we intercept the meaning of the Constitution differently. I was bread and taught in the American school system in the later sixties through the eighties. Back then patriotism and the glory of the American system of governance was the norm, it was the sunshine they blew up American childrens’ behinds in an effort to make us all good citizens.

And even though most of what I learned about my country has been tempered by time, living, and further enlightenment, the basic premise, the central idea of America has stayed with me. I believe that as a free Christian nation it is alright to champion the rights of the individual, but not at the expense of the society as a whole. With rights come responsibilities to God, family, country and self. We, none of us, live in a vacuum; we are not our own nations onto ourselves. What we as citizens do can and does have an impact on our fellows.

So yes, the constitution and the Bill of Rights were written to champion the rights of the individual above the state. But they are but a framework as to how we would govern ourselves. This almost religious championing of the individual above the collective must by moderated for the good of the whole if we are to progress as a people; we have to find the center. It does not have to be either left or right, we as a society need to find the center. So in that vain I put just as much credence in the Preamble to our federal constitution as I do the body, for it sets out the mission of our society, what We the People have formed this nation to accomplish.

If we are true a nation formed in the bosom of Christianity, then we should start to act like one. Jesus championed the cause of the poor did he not?

Alejo
I am sorry you had to post out of anger. I never expected that.
If I missed one of your replies to one of my posts, I apologize. I try to answer whenever I can.

rights? ALL rights are to be respected. No rights should be sacrificed in order to push the liberal agenda.

and the environment? ALL people care about the air they breath, the water they drink and the benefits we get from our forests and animals. But you do not kick people off the property they own, take away their job, dictate what they drive, eat or smoke and give up their way of life, to support the liberal agenda.

and poor people? ALL people care about poor people and their needs. But you do not forcefully steal money through raising taxes, in order to force us to support those who choose to be poor. Some people truly need aid and they should get it, but an awful lot choose not to work or even try. Instead, they expect the govt. to support them. That is wrong.

Until liberals see that the people don’t mind being governd, they just don’t want to be controlled by the govt, the liberal agenda will fail.

Mr. Martin
I am curious to know some of the reasons you give for this statement:

“championing of the individual above the collective”

I can give plenty of examples for the reverse and sincerley would like to see some of your views supporting your statement.
To me, this is a great starting point for both parties to try and find some middle ground on.

Politics and Religion are two touchy subjects,
because some people are too intolerant and/or lose their temper.

The following two points may seem obvious to some, but escape many:
________________________________________________
(1) We should be tolerant of all people’s religious beliefs, and a person’s religious beliefs are not debatable and should matter
to no one else (as long as those beliefs don’t support violation of any person’s inalienable human rights).

Thus, a person’s religious beliefs should never
be subject to criticism or debate (as long as those beliefs don’t support violation of any person’s inalienable human rights).
________________________________________________
(2) We should be tolerant of all people’s political beliefs and right to choose and vote for a political candidate of their choice
(as long as that candidate and the candidate’s beliefs do not support violation of any person’s inalienable human rights).

While a person’s religious beliefs should not matter to anyone else, a person’s political beliefs (in a democracy) and how they vote
affects me, you, and everyone else.

Thus, in a democracy, it’s everyone’s right to debate, advertise, campaign, communicate, and discuss political viewpoints (as long as no person’s human rights are violated….that is, no one should harass, attempt to force people to listen, or attempt to force people to vote, or vote a certain way, or not vote).

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

So, I don’t mind discussing religion, and find such discussions interesting, but I would never criticize any one’s religious beliefs (as long as those beliefs don’t support violation of any person’s inalienable human rights).

And the discussion of politics is OK too provided the participants understand point # (2) above.

kctim —

I shouldn’t have included you in my rant, I just got carried away. I’m not really angry so much as annoyed — I wrote several long posts on here and they simply disappeared. You didn’t miss them, they were just there for a little while, then went away as if I’d never written them. Frustrating.

Anyway, as you know, I am not myself a liberal. I believe the Second Amendment means exactly what it says and I would not ever voluntarily give up my gun. I also believe in personal responsibility and the death penalty. But I also think we need two ends and a middle to the political spectrum because all sides are needed for balanced governance.

Your assertions:

rights? ALL rights are to be respected. No rights should be sacrificed in order to push the liberal agenda.

The President we just re-elected wants to amend the Constitution to deny rights to a specific section of the population. That is not by any means respecting all rights.

and the environment? ALL people care about the air they breath, the water they drink and the benefits we get from our forests and animals. But you do not kick people off the property they own, take away their job, dictate what they drive, eat or smoke and give up their way of life, to support the liberal agenda.

Are you sure about that? I’m not. This president has rolled back environmental protections and enabled polluters and loggers to do far more damage than they’ve done in years. We should NEVER move backwards on environmental protection.

As for abridging people’s rights in regard to how they live their lives, I agree with you for the most part. But do we never ever say “Enough” before there is no air left to breathe or water to drink? As it is there are bodies of water in this country that are not safe to TOUCH, let alone drink or fish in.

and poor people? ALL people care about poor people and their needs. But you do not forcefully steal money through raising taxes, in order to force us to support those who choose to be poor. Some people truly need aid and they should get it, but an awful lot choose not to work or even try. Instead, they expect the govt. to support them. That is wrong.

Are you SURE all people care about the poor? How do you know? You won’t hear argument from me that there are people out there who choose not to work, I’ve seen them too. But there are plenty more people out there who NEED help and aren’t gettting — and will be even less likely to get it now.

I’m not asking you to think like a liberal or to defend Bush’s policies. But I know you don’t believe in big government — which Bush does and has no plan to pay for. I know you think taxes should be more equitable — and Bush has given disproportionate tax cuts to the wealthy, based on the idea that they’ll be nice enough to give some of it to us peons. I know you believe in personal freedoms — so I don’t believe you support a Constitutional Amendment taking rights away from anyone.

Niether side is entirely right or entirely wrong, you and I agree on that. But if the balance of power shifts radically to either side we will all pay the price.

I hear words like ‘homophobe’ thrown around, and as a Christian I wonder if the truth is that people fear Christians or Christian beliefs. The idea of seperation of church and state is created to prevent government from favoring one religion over another, however, this does not mean that men serving in government must be secular or that voters should ignore their faith when voting. Anyone who understands faith knows that it does and should dictate the way you vote just as it would dictate the rest of your actions. On the subject of homosexuality, it is not that christians HATE homosexuals, it is that we dont feel like laws should be passed in order to enable people to do things which we believe to be morally wrong. Just as drugs, prostitution, theft, and murder are wrong, so is homosexuality. I am not comparing gay men to murderers, but my point is to show that the government does not have to endorse or support any activity, especially if it is counter to the general publics’ moral standards. Marriage is not a right, it is a privelage and it is God given. Christians believe that it is sacred and it has already been broken down by divorce. Are we wrong to want to protect whatever is left of the sanctity of marriage. We do not hate gay men and women any more than we hate ourselves, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, the answer is to ask forgiveness from God, not write laws to make everyone feel better about their sins. Muslims, Jews, and Christians all have core beliefs that they hold dear and are non-negotiable. People of no faith dont understand because they view faith as a philisophical question while people of faith view it as fact. Therefore, as a Christian, my faith tells me what is right and what is wrong and I act and vote accordingly which is my right. Here in Oklahoma we passed two laws to allow lotteries and gambling into our state, I voted against it because I feel that it creates addiction and is a disservice to people who already have gambling addictions. It is not by hatred, but love, that I vote against gay marriage because I would be doing a greater disservice to homosexuals if I were to say to them that I thought it was ok for them to do whatever they want when my faith tells me that it is a dangerous and mortal sin. Whatever they do in their homes and bedrooms is up to them, but in the public arena we all have a say, and the people have spoken.

Matt—

I strongly endorse Senator Kerry’s view; that is my article of faith no matter what it is, should not be legislated into a law or laws that affect everyone. Marriage as regulated and presided over by the many states is a fundamental right, governed by civil law. So said the Supreme Court in Loving v. Virginia, and so it has been since the founding of our nation. Two people can get married before the Justice of the Peace at city Hall, and be just as married as two people married before the alter in any church in America. A marriage license is issued by the state not the church; indeed church’s, or any religious institution for that matter are not allowed to issue them.

Yes, there are public standards of moral behavior informed by centuries of religious AND secular principles. But faith is just that faith, it is not fact. You cannot prove that God exists, you just believe it so, and that is not, and should not be the basis for public law, because I may not believe as you believe.

About homosexuals: I believe—and more and more science supports this position—that homosexuals and lesbians are born that way. Bi-sexual’s are another matter entirely. Is it right for you or me to tell homosexuals and lesbians how to live their lives because my article of faith informs ME that it is a sin to live that way? And do I have the right in a free society to legislate that into law? Again marriage as regulated by the many states is a civil institution not religious one, and as such is protected, or should be protected under the 14th Amendment to the federal—and many state—constitutions. And please tell me: what harm comes from allowing homosexuals and lesbians to marry and raise children?

So when people look at what the far right has done and is doing to American society, we have a right to cringe and point fingers. Freedom is just that Matt freedom to live my life as I choose free from governmental interference as long as I, in the exercise of my freedoms, do no harm to others or society. Freedom does not mean living by the dictates of those exercising their article of faith, legislating those articles of faith into public civil law, thereby tell me and others what is right or wrong. Is that true freedom? Is that liberty? Is that equality? Is that the free will God gave to us all?

Alejo
Good to hear your just annoyed.
- The differences we have on the rights issue are noticeable throughout the left and right. We must now determine which right we are willing to give up in order to support another right. That is wrong. I know we both agree on that.
- Environment issues are also something that gets confused between the left and right. My biggest beef with it is the property rights issue. To actually have peoples land and life taken from them in order to protect whatever, is wrong to me. I also do not mind clean air rules or water rules either. But if it puts us at any type of disadvantage (kyoto) I do not want to be a part of it.
- On poor people, who actually need help, I do not believe Bush will leave anyone behind like the left preaches. He will still continue the social programs that have been putting people into that situation for decades.
- Your right on the big govt statement also. That has been my biggest peave with Bush.
- Tax cuts, education and the stuff are all personal opinions. I have benefited from the tax cuts and do not think they were only to the wealthy.

Your right, there must be a middle ground somewhere.
I think the people voted for the party who is closer to the middle though and with that happening, I believe the left needs to come closer to the middle in order to be Democrats again.

I am so embarrassed to admit that I am from Ohio, however it is very strange that while I live in a moderately big city and work in a hospital, everyone I knew was Pro-Kerry.
I don’t know how many jobs we need to lose, or rights, or be in the wrong country if we are truly fighting terror.
People were armed with more critical information on this administration and still are so fearful and self righteous, that they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I still find it hard to accept that we have four more years to go and hopefully, all of you mentally slow people that chose GWB don’t have any friends or family about to be 18, because, the next lie will be abouit the draft.

KCTim—

The whole conservative movement is deeply embedded in the ideas of Social Darwinism; i.e. every man for himself; I got mine you get yours! I ask you, is that in keeping with traditional Christian principles?

Bush isn’t perfect by a long ways, but the values of Kerry and Edwards simply do not resonate with most people.

Daniel, Kerry got over 50 million votes and only 3.5 million less than Bush. The values of Kerry & Edwards resonated with nearly as many as Bush’s values.

matt,

The idea of seperation of church and state is created to prevent government from favoring one religion over another, however, this does not mean that men serving in government must be secular or that voters should ignore their faith when voting.

This is a myth.

3. The Myth of the One-Sided Wall. Not content in its attempts to show that the “wall” metaphor is bad history, Wallbuilders also tries to negate its effect by revising its meaning. It claims that “the ‘wall’ was originally introduced as, and understood to be, a one-directional wall protecting the church from the government.” The wall was to stop government from interfering with religion, the argument goes, not to stop religion from involving itself in government.

A one-sided wall would be a neat feat of engineering, but it is a bad image of the Founders’ intent. One of Madison’s main arguments against a tax in support of all Christian religions in Virginia was that state support of religion endangered the state. He stated this idea in 1785 during the Virginia church/state controversy in his epic “Memorial and Remonstrance,” which set forth the principles and reasons behind the wisdom of keeping state and church separate. Madison wrote, “What influences in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instances have they been seen the guardians of the liberty of the people.”[6] Only a two-way wall, on that both keeps government out of religion and religion out of government, can truly protect religion. If some religious groups are allowed to legislate religious morality or use taxes for church activities, then religious groups too small to influence the legislature will be forced either to live according to the dictates of another religion, and/or to pay money to support activities of other religions. Either way, these minority religious groups will have lost freedoms. As one constitutional scholar put it: “The wall of separation ensures the government’s freedom from religion and the individual’s freedom of religion. The second probably cannot flourish without the first.”[7]

matt,

“It is not by hatred, but love, that I vote against gay marriage because I would be doing a greater disservice to homosexuals if I were to say to them that I thought it was ok for them to do whatever they want when my faith tells me that it is a dangerous and mortal sin.”

The Bible also says that homosexuals should be killed, and it is ok to keep slaves.

How will you be voting on those issues?

Mr. Martin
Forgive me, but I am an atheist, I can only guess that you are refering to helping your fellow man quotes in the bible. I hope I am correct in thinking that.
Using that reasoning though, should it not be up to the individual to choose if he wishes to help or not? Why must govt. force people to do that?
I know the “better for society” argument, but is it really better for society if people become dependent on govt. for everything?
I do believe in helping those who are in dire need but I also believe that churches and orgs like the salvation army do a much better job at it then the govt.

I was also being serious when I asked for examples of how when people choose the individual over society that it has a negative impact.

I was not intending to be a wiseguy, smart-ass or anything like that with my question. Sorry if it came out that way. I am just curious.

Good post JB.
It makes this gun lover very happy to see people quoting the founding fathers.
While “seperation of church and state” is not in the Constitution, I do hold the same beliefs as you do concerning it.
What do you think of the idea that the reason why it has become such a big issue is because the govt. is so involved in everything we do now?

Also, unless we become an atheist society, religion will always have some say in how our laws are made. I know its wrong, in a way, but people usually fall to their religious morals when determining what is right or wrong when making or following laws.

Just my two-cents. Don’t mean anything, I know.

kctim,

What do you think of the idea that the reason why it has become such a big issue is because the govt. is so involved in everything we do now?

I’ve been thinking a lot about this recently. A friend of mine has been arrested and held under a conspiracy charge. Conspiracy is a thought crime. No actual crime need be committed for this charge to be brought against someone. This is pernicious and utterly invasive (since it enters into the realms of our thoughts). This is a stark example of how the government has been slowly becoming a nanny state and we have all been playing the role of boiled frogs. The government certainly has been encroaching too far into the personal lives of its citizenry and it is being perpetrated by a broad and organized segment of our society that is forwarding a cultural agenda of religious ubiquity. Faith-based initiatives, the pro-life movement, school prayer, the drug war, and the gay marriage bans have all risen into mainstream politics over the past quarter century because of this movement and the left’s inability to properly recognize and fight it.

After this loss, I’ve been seriously thinking of supporting the Repub movement to allow foreign born citizens to run for president (e.g. Governor Arnold) just so he and his ilk can exert some pressure on the Repubs to move away from this radical and intrusive social conservativism.

Thanks JB
Its real interesting to finally get someone on the lefts view on this subject.
Thought crimes as you described are ridiculous and un-Constitutional. I really feel for your friend.
Pro-life: We agree that govt. should have no say in the choice of abortion. We probably disagree though on that I don’t think govt. should fund it either.
School prayer: We agree that govt shouldnt decide that religion is allowed in schools. We probably disagree though on that I dont agree with govt. sponsored schools either.
Drug war and gay marriage bans: No govt involvment.
Faith based inits: No way!

Its kind of funny in a way. I have been told that I make conservatives seem like liberals on some issues, but yet we still agree on alot of things.
Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Pro-life: We agree that govt. should have no say in the choice of abortion. We probably disagree though on that I don’t think govt. should fund it either. School prayer: We agree that govt shouldnt decide that religion is allowed in schools. We probably disagree though on that I dont agree with govt. sponsored schools either.

I think the left should be willing to make concessions regarding the issue but you’re right that I do support federal funding. I would be willing to make concessions in other areas though.

No public education is a bit too radical for me, but I definitely think the federal government should be as hands off as possible (e.g. no standardized testing).

I’ve had a few contentious encounters with you but I’ve always appreciated your willingness to seek out common ground. As has become the theme of this Democratic loss, it’s something we all have to work on.

The Republican party sent out propaganda to voters indicating that Kerry would ban Bibles if he were elected. They sent videos to churches that basically compared Bush to Christ. Some preachers went as far as to instruct their flock that a vote for Kerry was a sin. Some have been offended by the fact that Kerry supporters refer to the Bush value-voters as ignorant. But the word ignorant means “not informed” (not “stupid”). Clearly the Bush value-voters were not informed if they believed he shares the basic Christian values just because he tossed them a gay marriage ban. Think about it…would Christ really allign himself with Bush’s actions and motives? I believe Bush does believe in God, only his god is green and made of paper.

Alejo,

One more time, I was not saying that people who do not agree with the right need to get out of the country. My point was that there are numerous European and South American countries who have the more Liberal governments that those on the left seem to desire. However, the number of people leaving those countries to come here far outnumber those leaving her to go somewhere else.

I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.

Alejo…

-You’re right, Michael! The Democratic party, which says it fights for the rights of blacks, women and poor people is a fraud!

I know you folks on the left love to misquote those who disagree with you, after all, that’s how you vilify us, but I won’t tolerate MY words being twisted around. I never said the Democratic party was a fraud, I said that the liberal definition of tolerance is a fraud, and it is. Liberals have tolerance only for those who agree with them, everyone else is ignorant, stupid, and bigoted. Liberal tolerance means that we have to agree with you - lock, stock, and barrel. There is no room for dissension with you. Get it straight.

- The real party of tolerance is the party that wants to deny gays the right to marry and force women to bear children they can’t afford to raise!

Gays do not have the right to marry. The institution of marriage is reserved for one man and one woman, that’s just the way it is. To change this definition is to open the door to all kinds of interpretation, eventually resulting in a bastardized state of marriage, a cheap counterfeit that bears no resemblance to the true definition.
As far as forcing women to have children they cannot afford, well, I for one, would never sacrifice a human life for an hour or so of pleasure. Evidently, you deem it more important for a woman or a man to indulge in any pleasure they wish and not think of consequences. Of course, I am used to hearing this viewpoint - liberals are allergic to personal accountability.
Don’t tell me that liberals are concerned about blacks, women, and poor people either. All liberals have ever done is to propagate the most vile form of racism, sexism, and oppression: Demagoguery. They play on the fears of those they wish to control and shed crocodile tears at their plights saying “there, there, you are just a victim.” Heads up, pal! Conservatives believe in the power of the individual to pull themselves up to a higher level. Government assistance is fine, and those who need it should get it, but it is up to the individual to pull themselves up, anyone, regardless of race or social stature can do this - contrary to what you may believe. Women do have the right to choose what they do with their bodies, but the choice is made before conception, this may be inconceivable to you, but it’s true. Personal responsibility is the key.

Michael,

“Liberals have tolerance only for those who agree with them, everyone else is ignorant, stupid, and bigoted. Liberal tolerance means that we have to agree with you - lock, stock, and barrel. There is no room for dissension with you. Get it straight.”

So anybody that dosen’t agree with you is a liberal, right?

Alejo,

You asked me for a definition of what I think it takes to be an American.

As I have said, simply being born in the USA and paying taxes does not make someone an American.

Everett Hale said, “I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. What I can do I should do, and with the help of God, I will do.”

With Freedom comes Obligation and with Liberty comes Duty. We have been given freedom, justice and opportunity by the deeds, commitment and the blood of Americans before us. We owe them our gratitude and it is our duty to have at least a basic understanding of our democracy.

With the turn out for this election possibly excluded, people are voting less, paying less attention to their civic duty, participating less and complaining more. All you have to do is watch Jay Leno do his “Street Walking” segment. People do not know what we honor on Memorial Day; cannot identify a picture of Vice President Cheney or Al Gore. Yet these people are encouraged to vote.

The privilege of voting is precious; many in the world will never have the honor of casting a vote for the leader of their country. However, the privilege of brings a burden and responsibility to become informed. Prior to the election I heard a college student interviewed on the radio concerning whom he would be voting for. The student stated without hesitation that Jim Kerry was his choice. When asked if he could name an accomplishment of Jim Kerry or why he was going to vote for him this young man could not name a single thing Jim Kerry had done to earn his vote or articulate a position that Jim Kerry held. While this was an example of someone voting for Kerry without a clue, I am sure that Bush benefited from the same type of vote.

The Bill of Rights guarantees us certain rights, as an American, I have a responsibility to understand those right and a responsibility to ensure these rights are extended to my fellow Americans.

As an American I have the right and freedom to become involved in civic, community and religious groups of my choice. The freedom of religion and ideology also requires that I respect others whose religion and ideology differ from mine. I have a responsibility to ensure that those whose opinions might be different than mine have the same opportunity to be heard.

As an American, I must never take for granted the many freedoms and liberties others have sacrificed for. And, I must take the responsibilities I have as an American seriously.

As an American I must remember that without the active participation of its citizens, a democracy cannot thrive.

President Kennedy said, “In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course…. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.”

Even without my active participation, by virtue of being born in the USA and paying my taxes, I would have every right to enjoy the freedoms and liberties we have been given. My right to do so was guaranteed by the blood and sacrifice of American who came before me. However, without my active participation I would not earn the honor of calling myself an American.

Wake up and smell the coffee People. Then please go do something (constructive) for our country.

Rocky

No, not everyone who disagrees with me is a liberal. Enough said, I’m not taking the bait.

Michael —

I apologize; I read your broad dismissal of a political movement as even broader than it was. My mistake. But don’t expect to be able to toss out comments like that and not be challenged on them. (For the record, I had previously posted a response to you that was more specific and less annoyed, but it disappeared for some reason.)

I’m still trying to understand this concept that the relgious right is more tolerant than the movement that helped bring about the civil rights movement. What exactly is it that liberals want everyone to agree with them on, and how have they forced that to happen?

Please don’t tell me to “Get it straight,” as though your point should be perfectly clear to anyone who reads your brief and vitriolic post.

As for miquoting people, my friend, I’d say you’re guilty of it yourself:

Evidently, you deem it more important for a woman or a man to indulge in any pleasure they wish and not think of consequences.

Did I say that or anything like that? Nope. I’m not going to get into what value I personally place on human life, but I believe people should be responsible for what they do. On the other hand, I know there a lot of neglected, starving, beaten, unwanted children in this country, and if their parents had aborted them before they began their lives of suffering I think that would be better. There’s probably no way you can reconcile that in your personal framework, and I understand that. That’s what the liberals want: For you to exercise your faith for yourself and me to pursue my own way of life.

Don’t tell me that liberals are concerned about blacks, women, and poor people either. All liberals have ever done is to propagate the most vile form of racism, sexism, and oppression: Demagoguery. They play on the fears of those they wish to control and shed crocodile tears at their plights saying “there, there, you are just a victim.” Heads up, pal! Conservatives believe in the power of the individual to pull themselves up to a higher level. Government assistance is fine, and those who need it should get it, but it is up to the individual to pull themselves up, anyone, regardless of race or social stature can do this - contrary to what you may believe. Women do have the right to choose what they do with their bodies, but the choice is made before conception, this may be inconceivable to you, but it’s true. Personal responsibility is the key.

Let me see if I’m reading you right … liberals don’t really care about the oppressed, they just try to help them because … it makes them look good? Is that what you’re saying?

And everyone has the same opportunities and potential in this society? Are you kidding me? You do know that women still don’t average the same pay as men for the same job, right? (Or that’s what the stats showed before the Bush administration stopped publishing them, anyway.) I agree with you that the liberals tend to promote a victim society, but the “pull yourself up by your boostraps” path to success is still a HELL of a lot easier for a white male than a black female.

You and I have fundamentally different ideas about how the goverment should function, and in fact I’m not a liberal myself. It just really pisses me off to hear someone from a party that one by a very small margin crowing about how a valid political movement is discredited. I’m sure it would piss you off to hear someone say the conservative movement was full of greedy, selfish warmongers who wanted to rule the world. Wouldn’t it?

Kirk:

Even without my active participation, by virtue of being born in the USA and paying my taxes, I would have every right to enjoy the freedoms and liberties we have been given. My right to do so was guaranteed by the blood and sacrifice of American who came before me. However, without my active participation I would not earn the honor of calling myself an American.

Perhaps you might preface or follow comments like this with the phrase “in my opinion.” While the idea that everyone should participate in government is an admirable one, stating it as though it is a Truth and should be a law is bound to raise the hackles of people like me, who believe the title of “American” is earned by being born here or achieving citizenship.

Kirk:

Let me rephrase that last sentence: “While the idea that everyone should participate in government is an admirable one, stating it as though it is a Truth and should be a law is bound to raise the hackles of people like me, who don’t believe they should have to pass your test to call themselves Americans.”

Michael D. Freeman –

Your belief that gays have no right to marry, is just that, YOUR BELIEF.

Now, while it may be true that people of the same sex do not have a right to marry in your church, that should have no bearing on the their right to be married by a civil judge. This FACT is based on the First Amendment:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

That is to say, I have the right to practice my own religion and if that religion says that people of the same sex can get married, they have that right.

Alejo,

Where did I say that it should be a law?

Once againyou try to twist and spin to make what I say, fit into your argument. I also did not say that everyone should be involved in government. If you will go back and read my post it lists civic, community and religious groups as well. The kind of groups that attempt to make this a better place to live.

As for being involved in government, I do believe that a person should have a rudementary understanding of the candidates and issues before they vote. As my example of the college student planning to vote for Jim Kerry points out, many on both sides are lemmings and vote based on what they hear in a soundbite or through a political commercial. You know as well as I do that the political commercials twist and parse the truth to a point of being laughable.

For people to be so apathetic to the issues faced by this country to be voting scares the hell out of me. If we continue down this road of apathy we will eventually run this nation into the ground.

Words have meaning and we need to recognize that as a truth. Webster defines Earn as;

Earn

1:to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered

Birth does not earn you anything. We do nothing in being born. We are “endowed by thier Creator with certain unalienable rights”, but we have earned nothing. We have the right to call ourselves an American if we wish, just like we have the right to call ourselves a baseball player because we play catch with our kids. Just because we choose to excercise our right to call ourselves something does not make it so.

Michael,

“No, not everyone who disagrees with me is a liberal. Enough said, I’m not taking the bait.”

You won’t take the bait because you don’t seem to understand that there are more than just Liberals and Conservitives out here.

Sooner or later a third party will have a viable candidate.

The neo’s of both parties have poisoned the political water in this country. You don’t have to be a liberal or a conservitive to dislike either of the choices in this election.
We have had some great leaders in America and these two weren’t even close.