Third Party & Independents: Archives

David, you’ve got to stop this, you’re scaring the children.

Perhaps the children will grow up and vote differently than their parents. But, will it be too late to make any difference?

I know one thing. There are 7.2 million Americans permanently residing overseas who are going to be glad for their decision if we continue to ignore our national credit card limits.

You and I have already had this conversation.
It doesn’t matter who wins. The republicans still control the country and Kerry doesn’t have the charisma of a table lamp.

David,
What I saw tomight was Bush realizing that he has lost the race. Although he kept his emotions under control, you could see that he still believes that Kerry is lying about him.

I will admit that Bush put on a good show, but the only way Bush had a change to win the debate however would of been if he had debated himselve. No, Bush lost my respect on his answer to the last question. While I do respect my ladies, I do believe I heard Bush tell us he was a Momma’s Boy.

Rocky, it doesn’t take charisma to make use of a veto pen.

How well has that actually worked in the past? You can’t make changes with a veto pen.
You have to be able to work with Congress one way or the other.
It worked for Clinton because he had the charisma to change hearts and minds. Congress will hose Kerry without a second thought just because they can.

Rocky, the veto pen can, and has often been, used to speak to the people on their behalf. A veto pen that is backed by the promise to cut deficits will speak to the people. Congresspersons who fall on the side of wanting to further ‘pork’ at the public’s expense could face a disappointed constituency back home. It does not require to charisma to turn public opinion against representatives who won’t climb aboard the President’s fiscally responsible agenda.

This next 4 years are going to witness the national debt climb to over 8.5 trillion dollars without any additional spending programs. It is not going to take charisma to win the public over on the issue of cutting waste, fraud, abuse, and pork. Most voters in this country are aware the national debt is too high, and most voters will become increasingly concerned as it grows.

David I admire your passion, I don’t share your enthusiasm.
The pendulum has been swinging in the wrong direction since the republicans took over the house. They are looking to make even more inroads this election. That 2/3rds majority is nearly in their grasp. How effective do you see Kerry being against that.
I have friends that are, as we speak, investing in metals. This is not to make a profit. I know people that are moving their investments overseas.
Basicly I’m talking about the worst parts of the Bible.
With the debacle in the middle east, Kerry will be lucky to get Freedonia as an ally.

I don’t see this turning around any time soon.
Go back and read what you just wrote. Do you see much promise there?

Rocky, you’ve got to stop this. You’re scaring the children.

David:

If things are as bad as you say, then neither Bush nor Kerry can get us out of it. Nor could Badnarik or Nader, who do not have the political clout to win, or even to get anything done were they to win. If we cut spending greatly in order to balance the budget, we must do so by eliminating some of the programs, both social and military, that people have become accustomed to.

What I did not read in your statements was any kind of hope. No solutions, no ideas…simply despair.

If its truly that bad, then we are defeated already. We should simply end the charade and allow anarchy to take over, since it doesnt matter.

But I disagree with you there. There is much room for hope and there are solutions. The first solution is to continue to rev up the economic engine. Increased prosperity covers a lot of sins. The second thing is to reduce spending—-this will be even harder due to entitlements, but hard choices can and should be made.

For instance, the US has some of the top healthcare in the world, yet our people have become accustomed to overburdening the system with more and more minor issues. We now have pills to take BEFORE we get antacid, and to prevent us from feeling blue. Heck, if we dont get a large or long enough erection, hey, there’s a pill for that too!!

This area shows the symptom of many other sectors of the society. We need to make do with less. This is not to say the prevention of disease is bad—of course it is a good thing. But many of the things we are preventing (baldness, acne, etc) simply don’t rise to the point of NEED, but rather of WANT.

Our systems are overtaxed. SS cannot continue as it is because there will be too many baby boomers retiring. The system is collapsing under its own weight.

But, if we simply give up and view that there are no solutions, then we have lost.

jbod, I admire your hope. I hope too. My hope however does not rest with Kerry or Bush. If left to their own devices, I think they will both bury their heads in the sand fiscally and play the political pandering game with abandon.

My hope rests with the voting public. If as I think will occur, the national debt climbs to near 9 trillion dollars over the next 4 years, my hope is that voters will take an unprecedented anti-incumbent stand in 2008. Will it be too late? I don’t know. Depends a lot on what other troubles come our way over those 4 years.

Joseph,
I was trying to keep it light, David sounded pretty depresed.
I wasn’t kidding about Freedonia though.

This is indeed a dismal-feeling post. While I’m not known for wearing rose-colored glasses, I don’t think the situation is as bad as all that.

My choice is clear, because I don’t think waging more wars is a solution to anything and I believe that’s what Bush and his neocons want. So, simple, I’m voting for Kerry. Kerry, who makes many promises, some of which he will inevitably not keep. He will have to cut spending and he probably will not be able to give us all the programs he wants to.

That’s normal, that’s politics. What I got out of the debates, though, is that Kerry does have a vision, a plan, and one he believes in strongly. What I got from watching Bush is that Kerry really pisses him off, and that he (Bush) is able to parrot some stats about voting records but really doesn’t understand his own platform all that well. The fact that his platform seems to be that he promises vaguely to fix the mess the last president left — who is him, by the way — doesn’t impress me at all.

The debate was not a clear win for Kerry the way the last two were, but I still give Kerry the edge. His statesmanship continues to improve, while Bush comes closer to being a decent high-school debate team member.

If Kerry wins the election there will be some disappointments about his campaign promises and Republicans will rightly take him to task for them. But at least we won’t have a president whose main goal (I believe) is to force his will and his religion upon everyone in the world.

Rocky, I figured you were, but this…

I have friends that are, as we speak, investing in metals. This is not to make a profit. I know people that are moving their investments overseas. Basicly I’m talking about the worst parts of the Bible.

…sounded as alarmist as David’s speculation on US bankruptcy. I just thought it apt to mirror your first post.

I was trying to be light-hearted, too.

I do not think the debate was a draw; Bush at times looked and acted as though he was on some type of controlled substance. It is so blaringly obvious, even to the casual observer that Bush lacks a fundamental grasp of the issues. At one point during the debate last night, my spouse quipped in disgust, “I can’t believe he is our President.” That pretty much sums up my feels as well. How any sane, rational minded, intelligence person would want this man leading our nation is beyond me, it really is. I can understand loyalty to Party, but at some point you have to put the welfare of the nation above the Party.

While Kerry looked and acted Presidential Bush, wearing a self–satisfied smirk, looked acted like a petulant child, and arrogant wise-guy whose intellectual grasp of American democracy is about as acute as Saddam’s. He offered nothing new; it was just the same lame lines delivered in a style that reminded me of a dullard trying to fit in at the “A” students table. Give me a break!

Be that as it may, it is in the voters hands now; heaven help us all!!

Joseph,
I’m very serious about the friends moving their assets. The family of of a friend of mine just had a gathering to discuss what to do when the poo hits the fan. Belive it or not, this is my most liberal friend.

I think I came to the conclusion last night that these words sum up America underthis administration: “Spending more, and getting less.” All of Bush’s optimism doesn’t do anything when it comes down to the people suffering, and I see a lot of suffering here in Arkansas. I see outsourcing shutting down factories, I see medicare and medicaid cutbacks and drug company charges skyrocketing, my college tuition has gone up 7% to 9% every year since I started and this year my financial aid was cut in half… It just goes on and on. For Bush to get up there and act smug when all of this is happening angers me. He couldn’t bring it back to the war in Iraq as much as he wanted last night, so he looked weak. Kerry looked strong in every debate and I might just vote for him now.

David
Excellent post. A non-partisan glimpse at our likely future.
To bad the responses ignored the deep meaning and turned it into a partisan love fest.
Clearly, the only one who won the debates, was the candidate who a person supported before the debates even started.
Due to this type of closed minded, partisan fever, a viable option will probably not come along until, as you said, it is too late.
Great post David. Sadly though, if you were trying to get people to open their minds alittle and think, I don’t believe it worked.

And you know what Bush says to those who lost their jobs? Go back to school, the government will help pay for it. Excuse me, but how can these people who need to provide for their familes afford to not work and go to school, even if it’s cheaper? There is a huge gap there and it doesn’t make sense to me…

David & the rest of you,
The President, Congress, or a political party can not and will not fix the problems we face as a nation until WE THE PEOPLE stand up and demand it.

I quickly refer you back to Clinton shutting down the government in the 90’s for an example. Does anyone believe for a minute that Clinton could of gotten away with that stunt unless We the People backed fully the need for our government to fix the budget problem?

Much to the dislike of both parties base, Clinton knew the American Public would have his back when he told Congress to stay in office until the problem was fixed or else. Well, or else came because congress thought they could play on our divide and found out that we told them we thought Clinton was right and that they needed to grow up.

Yes, the debt, SS, and other issues need to be fixed. Yet, when our we as a nation going to force the hands of our political leaders to do the right thing. Unless someone here has a workable solution for an issue that is equal and fair, we need the congress to go in session until they come up with a workable plan.

If you do have a workable plan or a good idea than put it on the blog. Lets debate it and than offer it up as a bill. Hell, we could become the first blog site in history to introduce a bill into congress. Damn, now that is what I call representation.

Maybe are first bill should be is to require every elected official to post a blog site so that the people they represent can debate the issues and offer their solutions to the issues.

Alejo:

I agree with your comments about how neither Kerry nor Bush (nor any other presidential candidate) will be able to keep all their campaign promises.

I came out of the debates with a clear view as well, though I favor Bush where you favor Kerry. I didn’t expect the debates to change my opinions, but they did have the effect of reinforcing something about Kerry.

While he is a very good debater, I don’t see him as someone who will stick to his guns. I see him as someone who says what he thinks people want to hear, but I don’t sense a conviction in him, especially when you look at his record compared to his statements.

For instance, he never did really answer how he intends to pay for all the things he proposes. He says he has a plan, but doesnt divulge the details. His record shows him in favor of higher taxation through the years, though now he favors lowering taxes, just differently from Bush. He voted against a war where we had a great coalition and broad UN support—-he now says he is against the current war because we lack those same things.

Possibly the most egregious of the examples I saw was his bringing up Dick and Lynne Cheney’s daughter. There was absolutely no requirement for this, yet he did so for purely political impact.

I am a Bush supporter because I like the direction he is leading in, and I dislike where I think Kerry will go, based on his record. I will admit to liking Kerry’s rhetoric far more than I like what I suspect his realities are. Those who think Kerry will stay true to his current statements are, I believe, well misled.

I don’t sense a conviction in him, especially when you look at his record compared to his statements.

jbod, I see him as someone who has a deep sense of conviction, especially when I look at his record. He has an excellent record on fiscal responsibility and defense.

For instance, he never did really answer how he intends to pay for all the things he proposes.

Yes he did.

He says he has a plan, but doesnt divulge the details.

You’re just not looking for them. There on his web site, right here. He also gave a pretty good summary during the debate. Go back and read the transcript.

I dislike where I think Kerry will go, based on his record.

It’s pretty clear that the only thing you know about Kerry’s record is what you hear from the Bush campaign.

JBD,
Although I am not going to try and tell you who to vote for, I am really interested in your idea of how to handle the problems facing this country.

Not a Bush or Kerry idea, but your idea on the economy, Iraq, SS, and any other issue. Lay out your argument for change and how you would fix it. On the ability to pay for it, you can choose to pay as you go, user tax, or place it on the country’s credit card. This list does not have to be posted, but it is a good exercise to see where you meet or exceed either candidates plans.

And what kind of jobs will be awaiting those who take the challange and go back to school?
We will have the best educated McDonalds staff in the world.
No matter which administration the American public chooses, we need to stop the hemoraging of jobs to foreign countries.

AP:

Given the opportunity to take a high or low road, you continually choose the low road. Because I disagree with your opinion of Kerry, you claim that I don’t know Kerry’s record. You ignore two of the truths I listed about Kerry (his record on taxes and his votes on war) because they disagree with your assessment.

Now mind you, I’m not agreeing with Bush’s claims about Kerry’s tax votes. I AM saying, though, that Kerry has consistently voted to either raise taxes or has voted against lowering them. And his record on voting for military action (No on Desert Storm under a Republican president, yes to Desert Fox under a Democrat President, and no to the current war under a Repub president) has been all over the board.

Just as an aside, if his record WERE so good, why has he not talked about it? It should be his calling card to the presidency, yet all he can do is talk about what he WILL do. That’s all well and good, but it flies in the face of what he HAS DONE.

I can say right here and now that I will design and manufacture a pill that will cure cancer. But nothing in my background shows that I have the capability to do so. So it is with Kerry.

By the way, I read the transcript, and Kerry gives a couple examples of how to pay for things, but the numbers dont come close to adding up. He says broad things like “We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks.” No specifics—no nothing. I’ve also gone to JohnKerry.com and found nothing specific.

Let’s play a game, you and I. I brought up the education issue that Kerry spoke of in the debate. YOU find the specifics on how Kerry will pay for it on JohnKerry.com and post it in here.
I’ll be looking forward to understanding it better.

Hi, not sure if you’ve heard about this, but there’s a terrible injustice being perpetrated by the media:

http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/2004/10/14/blogs-condemning-network-spiking-of-3rd-parties/

Henry:
That’s a great idea, and I’ve done it already on some but not all issues.

In broad scope, I think that getting the economic engine moving forward is the biggest step. Our economy is moving forward in the last 18 months, which creates a different situation than that of 2000, when the economy was dropping during the election. A thriving economy covers many sins, but only for a while, so the second and more important thing is to stop the waste we have in our govt.

I dont have a problem with the idea of “credit cards” for our country, just as I dont have a problem using them personally. But I watch to make sure I don’t get overextended, and our country needs to do the same.

We have gotten too used to having all our problems solved for us. We hurt a little—-we buy medicines or see doctors. We want a new park nearby—we convince our town govt to do it. We want more jobs—-senators provide “gifts” to companies to induce them to build a plant in their district.

In the area of SS, its clear that we will have more people on SS than ever before, and therefore less people shouldering the burden. Somehow we need to reduce benefits or start them later, or figure out how to increase revenues.

jbod and Henry, here are some facts to consider. Investments in equities are shifting from the U.S. to foreign markets at an alarming rate. (WSJ)

The interest accrued on the debt through Sept. since Jan. 1, 2004 is 321.5 Billion dollars. That means we need to increase revenue about 400 Billion a year just to pay the interest and stop the interest growth on the debt.

Then you have to come up with another 420 Billion in spending cuts or increased revenues to cancel the deficit. So, to get us to a point of non-growth in the National Debt, we have to come up with a combination of about 820 Billion in spending cuts and increased revenues, or one or the other.

That should give you a starting point on deciding what programs to cut, what revenues can be generated to hit the 820 billion dollar growth in the national debt per year. And remember, doing just this much still means having to dole out 400 Billion or more each year in interest payments on the national debt.

I am an 18 year old girl, and so it will be my first time voting. I have been watching the battles between the presidents from a naive but unjaded What I don’t understand after watching the debates last night is how anyone in their right mind could believe george bush, or say that he has TIED in the debate against kerry, when all george bush did was stand up on the podium, smile like crazy and talk about how great things are going in iraq and how he is going to get rid of the deficit, improve health care, and make our country better. He said all of these things without presenting a PLAN. It doesn’t take a genius to tell the country that everything is going to be fine, and god bless america. It takes a man with superior intelligence to come up with any sort of plan to fix the incredible mess that george bush and his arrogant cronies have created in a mere 4 years. I am someone who is going to have to REALLY deal with the outcome of this whole predicament in iraq, a predicament that george bush singlehandedly started and that those voting for him seem to forget has never been justified. My next door neighbor is over there fighting for some reason that he isn’t even aware of, let alone a reason that he supports. My point here is that i am just BAFFLED. I feel it must be a joke that about 50% of the people in this country believe mr. bush when he tells us that everything is going fine. If george bush wins this election, and chaos ensues, perhaps America will deserve it if a majority of the people here can’t know an idiot when they see one.

elmehr,
Welcome, I’m glad to see you do not believe the rest of America is stupid. They may be greedy, but I hope that they still have the common sense God gave them.

If you look back in our political history, you will find that although the political party’s and media always try to keep the race tight. The problem they have had in the recent battles for the White House is that they haven’t been able to use the issues to divide us.

Can you name me one person who does not care if we are attacked again?

Can you name me one person who does not understand that prices on everything is rising?

Can you name me one issue that individual Americans just say “I don’t care?”

Yes, we all might have our own grasp on the subject, but when confronted with the cold hard facts normally our duty to our society tells us to do the right thing.

The best advice I will offer is to search your own heart, yet listen to that vioce that you know is right. My dad explained it best I think if you know you are right than even your elders have to respect your point of view.

You ignore two of the truths I listed about Kerry (his record on taxes and his votes on war) because they disagree with your assessment.

I didn’t ignore them. I thought I made it clear you’re totally wrong.

I did miss the two war votes, though. You said,

He voted against a war where we had a great coalition and broad UN support—-he now says he is against the current war because we lack those same things.

That’s the Bush campaign spin. The legitimacy of the two coalitions had absolutely nothing to do with his vote. In Gulf I, he - like most Democrats (I personally disagreed, BTW), believed that sanctions should have been given more time. In hindsight, it’s clear that sanctions wouldn’t have worked, but global sanctions were a shiny new foreign policy tool back then.

As for Gulf II, Kerry voted for the resolution, didn’t he? Kerry knew that sanctions and inspections backed by force were the only way to go this time.

Kerry wasn’t against confronting Saddam. He’s just against unnecessarily going to war, and he, like most Americans, is appalled by the ham-handed incompetency of Bush’s management of the situation - and, oh, by the way, bin Laden (the guy who attacked the United States and killed thousands of Americans) IS someone we should be concerned about no matter what Bush says.

As for how Kerry will pay for education, he’s got a nice little chart on page 9 of his budget plan with a reference to more info at the Tax Policy Center which you would have easily noticed if you had been interested enough to check out the link I provided last time.

But you’re not interested, are you? Just like you’re willing to regurgitate the Bush campaign spin about Kerry’s voting record because you’re not interested in finding out for yourself.

Nobody’s hiding Kerry’s public record. ***IT’S RIGHT HERE!!***

AP:

In your attempt to make a point, you actually made MY point for me…..and I thank you.

You show what Kerry is really like when it comes to having the toughness to make decisions. In 1991, you say he wanted to wait longer for sanctions to work, despite the wide coalition and UN support for taking action. One must wonder how long he thinks he should have waited, while Saddam invaded the Kuwaiti oil fields. Perhaps Kerry also thinks the US should have sanctioned Hitler and waited him out too? The point is that when a brutal dictator invades a neighboring country, you cannot click your heels three times, muttering “I hope the sanctions work, I hope the sanctions work…”. You must take action. Kerry would not have.

Now, Kerry says he understands that you have to confront with force, just as long as you are only bluffing, of course. I like how you point out that he voted FOR the use of force, while opposing it at the same time. Kerry couldnt have straddled that particular fence any better than you did just there.

As for your link regarding fiscal policy, the authors state that Kerry will reduce revenues by $602 million, while increasing spending by $653. Simply get your calculator out in order to help you understand what this means.

I’ll review the rest of it in more detail when I get more time to do so.

jbod, you can agree or disagree with Kerry’s budget plan, but don’t try to tell us it doesn’t exist.

I’ll review the rest of it in more detail when I get more time to do so.

While your at it, you can tell me how Bush is going to pay for his three trillion dollar (that’s one trillion dollars more than Bush’s estimate of Kerry’s programs) campaign promises.

Bush can say Kerry’s going to have to raise taxes all he wants, but it seems to me that Bush is going to have the same problem - in spades.

You show what Kerry is really like when it comes to having the toughness to make decisions.

I’d call it prudence. The fact is, GHW Bush wasn’t going to go after Saddam anyhow until Thatcher busted his balls.

But like I said, I didn’t agree with that one decision Kerry made more than a decade ago, although most Democratic legislators did.

Kerry was definitely right this time - Bush was wrong.

AP:

Perhaps you will note what I wrote in an earlier post directed to Alejo, in which I already commented that neither candidate would be able to meet all their promises.

I’ve said all along that Kerry doesnt say how he will pay for his “plan”—-your response is to say that Bush cant pay for his either. Such a strong defense of Kerry’s plan….Way to go!!

Then, rather than defend Kerry’s decision to vote AGAINST helping Kuwait, you try to claim that Bush 41 didn’t really want to either. Again, a really strong defense of Kerry—-way to go again!!

You seem to fall into the “Anyone But Bush—-even Kerry” camp. That’s not a sterling endorsement of Kerry—-it just shows your negative viewpoint of Bush.

Thanks for attempting to show Kerry in a better light. You’ve reinforced my position with your information.

Haha! jbod, I just took exception to your saying that Kerry doesn’t say how he will pay for his plan. He does.

You can quibble over the numbers all you want, but to say Kerry doesn’t have a plan is just an outright falsehood.

BTW, I’m a firm supporter of John Kerry. I’m very impressed with his healthcare plan. I’m in love with his energy plan. He’s got a very clear foreign policy which I agree with whole-heartedly. And Kerry is a fiscal conservative - which will be a nice change after “Borrow & Spend” Bush.

You seem to disagree with quite a few of Bush’s policies, jbod. I’m surprised you’d let partisan politics stand in the way of a better future for all Americans.