Third Party & Independents Archives

David,
Great post. I hope God is on our side. Now if only our media would get on our side.

David, though not religious myself, I don’t agree with ridiculing anyone for saying that they “listen to god” or that “god speaks to them.” I know many religious people who speak this way, and they’re not really saying that god literally sits down and chats with them across the table. The psychiatric facility remark seems a little mean-spirited.

As for Bush’s bump evaporating, maybe so. It should be expected, god’s will or not! But his 7 point lead in the Gallup poll has also evaporated. It’s now a 14 point lead!

I hope you’ll forgive me for talking polls for a minute (you do mention them in your piece, so it’s not that much of a digression). Current pollsters are showing totally insane deviations from one another right now, after months of all being within a few digits of each other. My research into the subject tells me that if this is going to be a low turnout election (relative to the last one) then the Pew/Zogby/Harris/Rasmussen method of weighting data based on past elections and current party affliliations are the more correct. If, however, this is a high turnout election, then Gallup/Time/Newsweek method is better. I have no idea which of the two possibilities is more plausible at this point.

Me neither, Martin. What I can gather from a host of news articles and PR mailings on both sides, is that this will be as much as a 58 to 60% turnout. But that guesstimate is based only on stories of the amounts of money and numbers of get out the vote organizations in play that I have read about compared to what I remember as being the case in 2000.

Polls are snapshots in time, and therefore still have little predictive value this far out from election day. I was surprised though to see Bush’s bounce dissipate so rapidly. One of the best ways I have found to read polls is with a bell curve in mind. Throw out the extremes, and average those withing 2 standard deviations. Following that prescription, it does appear still to be a neck and neck race.

I did take a bit of literary license with the God perspective, and I would hope that no one would take it literally, as I said, God don’t talk back to me so I have no idea what God thinks. My intent was to poke a little fun at the callers on Washington Journal on C-Span in the morning who believe a negative comment aimed at Bush is an affront to God. We Buddhists believe God has a sense of humor, and he probably put them up to it.

:-D

Well, isn’t that interesting…
“Buddhists believe God has a sense of humor,”

That must explain the Kerry candidacy.

Henry, I don’t believe God is on anyone’s side. I think he/she is on everyone’s side. It is humans who feel compelled to view life as eat or be eaten camps of battle (except for vegetarians :-) .

If I were President, I would outlaw sports, and replace them with chess tournaments and poker teams. If we spent half the energy we do on competition on constructive “everyone wins” strategies, I think we would all have a lot more hope and a lot less fear. But just pass a highway accident and one can readily see how we love our blood and guts oneupmanship and why I would not get on a single ballot. :-(

yahoo35, no it explains Bush’s last 4 years. The joke is on us. We elected him.

Make that appointed him.

Realclearpolitics.com does just what you mention—they daily average the major polls and seem to be quicker than anybody else at incorporating the new numbers.

I think that we’re late enough in the race now that the polls really do matter. To use your analogy, “snapshots in time” matter little in the first few miles of a marathon, but matter a great deal near the finish-line. Each day that goes by at this late date, there are fewer undecideds and less potential fluidity in the numbers. The debates, though, will be fascinating.

Realistically, I believe that we’re looking at a very narrow Kerry win, a very narrow Bush win or a Bush blowout.

Martin, I just saw an article regarding a poll indicating the swing voters are not being moved much at all at this point. Don’t how valid it is, but, if true, then it is still anybodies guess. With a high turnout, we are talking a whole lot of previously ‘unlikely’ voters, and they are why I thing the polls still have little predictive value.

I agree entirely, if one candidate were sustaining a large lead, the polls would have more meaning 6 weeks out.

David, I can’t let that remark pass: “If I were President, I would outlaw sports, and replace them with chess tournaments and poker teams. If we spent half the energy we do on competition on constructive “everyone wins” strategies, I think we would all have a lot more hope and a lot less fear.”

Wanna play poker? I still play a bit, and I can assure you that not only do some people lose, they lose their shirts! Poker and chess are not “everyone wins” games. You must be thinking of Twister, a game in which everybody really can find their own form of gratification.

Sidenote: Bush is supposedly a murderously good poker player.

Martin, here is the quote: “But among swing voters, those who are undecided or say they might vote for another candidate, Bush appeared to lose some ground in the Annenberg survey and was no stronger than he was in August on the issues of fighting terrorism or being the better commander in chief. “

And here is the link.

Martin, mayby your poker. My family plays for toothpicks broken in half to double their amount. For us the game is reading each other and bluffing, not sending someone to the poor house. We all win when we play because we all learn a bit more about each other.

The problem with the Annenberg survey (God!, to get back to that subject, I can’t believe I’ve been studying the polls enough to actually know this), is that the pool of swing voters has shrunk dramatically.

A voter who finally decides to vote for Bush is no longer a “swing voter” and won’t be counted as such. The title of the article you link to gives this away—“Bush Gains, but not with Swing Voters.” So who is Bush gaining with? Non-swing voters? You can’t “gain” a non-swing vote.

Aha! I actually see that mentioned in the article you link to: “That may be caused at least partially by Bush solidifying his support and removing some backers from the swing voters group.”

So let me quote from notoriously left-leaning Zogby’s analysis of his latest poll (which currently shows Bush up by 4).

“The Kerry fizzle is striking. He receives only 77% support from Democratic Party voters and has a 7-point lead in the blue states (47%-40%), as compared to Bush’s 13-point lead in the red states (51%-38%). The fact that Bush is getting 15% of Democrats and 15% of liberals should be troublesome. Bush leads again among Catholics (48%-40%) whereas Kerry had a double-digit lead among them in August. The fact that 10% of African Americans say that they are ‘not sure’ is dangerous for Kerry.

“Kerry has got to re-focus his campaign to address economic anxiety and other issues that are obvious concerns for voters. Kerry leads among those who say that their top issues are jobs and the economy (50%-39%), education (48%-37%), the war in Iraq (50%-36%), and health care (50%-34%). But, among those who say that the ‘war on terrorism’ is their top concern, Bush leads by 41 points (66%-25%).”

So if, as you say, Bush is no stronger now on fighting terrorism in the eyes of voters than in August, how much stronger could he possibly get? A 41 point advantage seems pretty good to me.

David,
I like your quoteHenry, I don’t believe God is on anyone’s side. I think he/she is on everyone’s side. It is humans who feel compelled to view life as eat or be eaten camps of battle

However, I do think God takes sides, but we as adult humans must to learn like children. Rome was not built in a day, yet it still fell down. America needs to examine itself and realize that man himself is above nature. Until than the eat or be eaten camps will always exist in time.

Martin, Bush might be good at poker, but he just lost his soul to history.

Well, from Almighty God to poker in a blink of an eye! So now the digression is official, but fun, so I won’t stop yet.

Poker has to be played for stakes you really don’t want to lose—it’s all reading an opponent or confusing an oppenent, about who will and who won’t crack under pressure. If your opponent doesn’t care whether or not you get his rent money (or preferably the money he needs for a liver transplant), then what’s the fun? Now, if you’ve got something really nasty stuck in your teeth, then a toothpick might be proper stakes.

Henry, history is a lot like god. Everybody claims that it’s on their side.

Martin said: “So if, as you say, Bush is no stronger now on fighting terrorism in the eyes of voters than in August”

Martin, I don’t think I said that at all.

But, as for the rest of your read on the polls, I agree and I find your read and references very close to the mark.

The Electoral Vote Predictor has Bush shooting up to 311 vs. Kerry’s 233. But, the way it has been swinging wildly between Bush and Kerry, still tells me along with the other data, that the polls simply have no predictive value yet. There is that possibly large surge of first time voters and unlikely voters who may turnout that it is difficult to measure at all through polls based on samplings of 1000 or less persons.

This could also easily be one of the most expensive elections in terms of actual voting and counting and contesting procedures, ever. With all them watchdogs from overseas, and both major parties and Nader is even likely to have some out there, I wonder if we will even know the outcome on Nov. 3 or 4. Of course, the media will want to call the race, but, absentee votes may come in in record numbers as well, according to one news release this week.

Going to be one for the history books I think.

Martin, your take on poker and mine spells the difference between meat eaters and us almost vegetarians, I think.

Winning can be fun if the loser enjoys playing as much as the winner does. Winning is not fun when the loser pulls out a cannon and blows the winners head off for taking his livlihood away.

We play for fun, just seems to be more fun that way for all. But, I must confess to having been an ardent poker player in my youth and having spent 20 hour stints at a Reno 7 card table. I usually came out ahead, but, when I spread my earnings out over the hours of lost sleep, it came out to about $4.35 an hour earnings overall. Decided not to make a career of it. Wise choice, don’t you think?
:-D

Henry said: “that man himself is above nature”

Well, I would debate at length on how that statement is so invalid by my philsophy, but, this is the wrong forum and it would not be on topic of the article.

I do agree, humans have the potential to rise to the level of living life with a win-win ethic. I would also agree the species has a long way to go. A good down payment on that growth would be to thank Bush for his service, especially after 9/11 in the way he brought our people and the world’s people together to go after al-Queda, and vote for Nader, Badnarik, or even Kerry. Anti incumbent votes are the only way Americans are going to get politicians to heed their concerns and needs again.

I happen to beleive plants are living things, too.I often hear trees screaming. I also have a black velvet portait of dogs playing poker, right next to my elvis portrait.

Does this mean I’m a Democrat or Republican?

Greg, now that is funny. ROFL. Thank you, there is often not enough sense of humor on this site and I for one sincerely appreciate your contribution. :-D
Good one!

what i find funny is either side claiming GOD is on their particular side….

as if the almighty creator of the universe gives a rats ass about politics and the worst of human behavior.

ahhhhhhh our arrogance will be our demise….

Martin,
Lets play some poker. You want high stakes, how about your future?

Bush poker hand believes the ecomony is on the right path. Trickle down the money to the unskilled labors while offering illegal aliens free room and broad for keeping the Lower Standard of Income Level.

Kerry is offering a World idea as a solution.

Given the hand the average American faces and will find out. I won’t lay a dime on neither one. Read the facts and tell me there ain’t a God. If the rich does not figure out how to make the poor of this world rich, our civilization is doomed. Now, that is SWEET JUSTICE.

linktext

Sorry try this site: http://www.unificationtheory.com/bioeconomist/theGAME2.htm

I’m not a Yawey fan but I would think that if he were to exist maybe he is punishing Florida for 2000 close enough to the upcoming elections to, what’s the phrase, soften their hearts. Of course this would be in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Lincoln said that he didn’t know if God was on our side but he hoped that we was on God’s side. We should not take the name of God in vain.

We can all well argue about whether the U.S. had the legal right to invade Iraq and we can argue that it is not worth the cost to the American people, but nobody can argue that Saddam Hussein was no real threat to the rest of the world. In 2002 he was beaten down and temporarily tamed by British and American resolve in enforcing no fly zones, most UN members had no stomach for keeping him down and he was about the get out of his box again.

I just finished a posting on the other site, but with your permission I will repeat some here, since it is the same issue.

In Iraq, our intelligence was flawed, but consider what we knew. What we knew then was that Saddam Hussein had the stated intention of doing harm to the U.S., that he sheltered terrorists of various kinds (although no direct link to 9/11), that he at one time possessed and used WMD (we believed he had them still) and that he had the intention and capability to develop WMD if left alone. We also knew that Saddam Hussein was adept at confusing his enemies and that prone to act in unpredictable (at least to us) ways.
Furthermore, it was undisputed that Hussein was responsible for literally millions of deaths in his region and that he had attacked four of his neighbors, that he was in violation of seventeen UN resolutions. The Oil for Food program was a farce and Saddam Hussein was starving his own people and using UN sanctions as an excuse. Arab media was running stories every day about Iraqi woman and children dying because of U.S. (the didn’t say UN) sanctions. Many countries were flagrantly violating the sanctions and it was abundantly clear that Hussein would be “out of his box” within a year or at most two and free to do as he pleased.

This is not a dangerous threat?

David—

Great original posting…I agree it is one thing to speak to God, but to actually hear him speak back is a challenge. He gave us free will to use; why then would he then tell us how to live our lives?

Great article, David. Yours are usually very entertaining and informative.

Its interesting, I recently had a long conversation with a woman I know who is very religious and often rightwing in her beliefs - and I called some of the same things your article addresses to her attention. I won’t go into the whole conversation, but she ended up agreeing with me that while the president talks a lot of religion, his actions show that he does not _live_ his faith. Several days after we spoke, she called to tell me that our conversation has made her change her vote (though she didn’t say whether that vote would be for Nader or Kerry, nor did I ask), and that she’s going to talk to some of her church friends and see if they don’t agree.
Made me feel pretty good to help change a religious persons viewpoint, I must say!

Right on Jack! The strong actions of Bush in Afghanistan and Iraq had also less apparent effects on the softening up of Assad of Syria and Qaddafi of Libya, both well-known supporters of worldwide terrorism…

As for Remer’s piece, we find it dour, lame and deliberate at best: as funny as his Buddhist sense of humor. :^((

[Comment deleted for failing to observe our critique the message, not the messenger, policy. WatchBlog Manager]

V.Ed:

Don’t know if you have kids, but if you do, I’m sure you give them advice. And I’m sure you also hope they listen to your advice.

The truest form of love, in my opinion, is giving free will. Sometimes this means that children will make an unwise decision, but you can hope they learn from their choices.

A good parent listens to his children, gives wise advice and then also gives his children the freedom to make their own choices.

So too does God.

Hey listen, y’all - Hillary ain’t gonna let Kerry come close. He’s in on the deal and’ll get a plum job with minor responsibility in 2008. Edwards gets the legacy of being a former Veep. Ter-ay-zah gets what she deserves.

Saddam was the most viable place for a footprint in our effort to survive, but just a starting point. Syria & Iran are next & that twerp in N.Korea - he ain’t no big thing. But if we don’t clean up that rat’s nest called the Middle East we’ll be leaving the cleanup for a future President with preemptive vision & it sho ain’t be Democratic…

We humans are like little cracks in an ice pond. Some of us cracks are gonna do what we need to do to make it better and some of us are gonna want/need for the others to do for them too.

The D’s envision Socialism as the true way and the R’s are gonna do what they can to make a better reality without relying on the dole.

But we’re all a crack in the pond in the end. Get used to us conservatives, boys & girls - we’re gonna be here for awhile and you’ll learn to love us for making your world a much happier place to hang around.

vicav said : “As for Remer’s piece, we find it dour, lame and deliberate at best: as funny as his Buddhist sense of humor. :^((“

Few things are more respected and detested than the truth. Thank you for your comments and perspective.

Jack, your facts about Saddam are all quite accurate according to my understanding. Your very last comment however, I would disagree with: “Many countries were flagrantly violating the sanctions and it was abundantly clear that Hussein would be “out of his box” within a year or at most two and free to do as he pleased.”

The Toronto Star article about a report being prepared for the CIA indicates ” As he puts the finishing touches on the 1,500-page report, Duelfer concludes Saddam intended to restart weapons programs at some point, after suspicion and inspections from the international community waned.”

This single statement says it all. U.S. containment of Iraq was working and as long as we remained suspicious and vigilant regarding Saddam’s military programs, he was impotent and not a threat. The cost of containment of Iraq was certainly far, far, far less than the deaths, casualties, and 100’s of billions of tax dollars and the $4 billion a day additional costs we are now incurring.

The Report makes the point, Saddam was not an imminent threat and had little ability to destabilize the region with the containment policy Clinton had in place.

Adrienne and Mr. Martin, thank you for your comments.

Adrienne I read some years ago about chaos theory and something now being called ‘the butterly effect’ which states the under the right coincident circumstances, the addition of wind developed from the wings of a butterfly in Africa can produce a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico, which otherwise would not have occured.

Taking the time and patience to speak and listen to others about such topics is indeed worth the effort, eventually.

scotty said: “we’re gonna be here for awhile and you’ll learn to love us for making your world a much happier place to hang around.”

You may be here awhile, but, as history points out so clearly, what is up today will be down tomorrow. Enjoy while you can. Love is not what changes regimes, and the Republican regime will end.

jbod said : “A good parent listens to his children, gives wise advice and then also gives his children the freedom to make their own choices.”

Absolutely true and correct, jbod.

Of course God is voting for Bush, David. He’s a Republican.

You are probably right, Eric, God also nearly destroyed the world (great floods) and never apologized. Moses though turned out to be the first Green Party member.

can we please get off this liberal = socialist rant…..

as a liberal….I AM ALL FOR A FREE MARKET ECONOMY

as a liberal…I AM ALL FOR SMALLER FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

as a liberal..I AM ALL FOR SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

as a liberal…I AM ALL FOR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY

as a liberal…I AM FOR LESS TAXES

as a liberal….i am amazed and astounded at the arrogance of our republican posters. I am all for a two party system….however, you all seem hellbent to eliminate the liberals and the democrats from our society….

don’t sit there and tell me you are all-loving when all you do is talk about how much the other side is unamerican, unpatriotic, socialist, and all the other talking points you all love to use….

ahhhh…and you wonder why we liberals are so angry…..

“God also nearly destroyed the world (great floods) and never apologized. Moses though turned out to be the first Green Party member.”

:^D I love it!

rob,

I question your liberal credentials, sir. You support free markets, smaller federal government, separation of church and state, personal responsibility, and LESS TAXES! Next you’re going to tell me you’re all for the constitution too. Ha, no liberal are you. Unless by liberal you mean a 17th century liberal.

On a more serious note, it is the left and John Kerry in particular who is slinging the mud in this race. Calling Bush and Cheney draft dodgers, war criminals, of having secret plans to kill Americans, of not preventing 9/11, of lying, of waging war for Haliburton contracts, etc etc on and on and on… please don’t even try to lecture Republicans for ‘questioning the left’s patriotism.’

eric:

i’m also for:
dissent if you disagree with our government
questioning our leaders
abortion rights
gay marriage
and a crackdown on gov’t pork spending….

i doubt i’d be too popular at any GOP meetings……

i may be more of a centrist when it comes to my liberalism…however, my point was, to stop this “talking point” of “liberal = socialism” and “conservative = good”

it’s not a black and white issue, and one can argue that the extremes of both sides are inherrently distructive to progressive ideas.

David

The UN Oil for food program was a scandal. The very same countries that opposed us in the UN were calling for weakening and an end to sanctions. Besides, who were sanctions hurting? Not Saddam or the his party. Only the ordinary people of Iraq. That is the fundamental problem of sanctions always and everywhere: a dictator can shift the impact. Iraq might be a mess now, but it would have been a bigger mess if we had put off the reckoning.

Rob, no conservative I know believes that we have an absolute monopoly on truth, largely because there is not as much of a “we” as you think. As a group, we disagree about all kinds of things large and small and are much bigger tent than you seem to think. The equation conservative=good is a leftist’s stereotype of how YOU think we regard ourselves. I could name many issues in which contemporary conservatives have actually borrowed ideas from the left to make our own ideas
stronger.

But here we go:

“as a liberal….I AM ALL FOR A FREE MARKET ECONOMY”

So you reject the Democrats’ complaints about outsourcing and the protectionist demands of the Democrats’ union base?

as a liberal…I AM ALL FOR SMALLER FEDERAL GOVERNMENT”

So what Federal programs and agencies should be smaller? Shall we slash education, Medicare, welfare, defense? What do you mean, specifically, by smaller? As a member of the left, gutting which federal programs appeals to you?

“as a liberal..I AM ALL FOR SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE”

As a conservative, so am I! What the Consitituion says about this issue is wonderful. No state religion should be established, and short of that the state should keep it hands off the free expression of religion.

“as a liberal…I AM ALL FOR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY”

So you want to cut social programs? Stiffen jail terms? Force people off public programs and make them rely on themselves? Me too!

“as a liberal…I AM FOR LESS TAXES”

Wow. Now it’s clear that you really are a closet Republican and just haven’t figured it out yet. If on top of everything else you’ve mentioned, you also want to lower taxes below their current rates, then you really need to come over to our side and put behind you those who disagree with you about everything.

and my point is still missed……

i give up.

Excellent article, David. It reminds me of a Rude Pundit post (my new blogsphere hero) that I saw recently.

God, as we know, works in mysterious ways. He gives us opportunities, tests, if you will, to see what kind of people we are. And George Bush’s failure to offer the Sudanese anything more than lip service support for a U.N. that he had significantly weakened was it. The end. God no longer trusts George Bush to be His servant on Earth. How does the Rude Pundit know this? Ahh, it is obvious, for who else but God would arrange for events so huge and cataclysmic as to render instantly irrelevant to the news cycle Bush’s acceptance “speech” on Thursday at the Republican convention.

…

If God had wanted us to care, if He had wanted us to focus, He would have cleared the skies, He would have softened Chechen hearts, He would have halted the violence in Iraq. He would have given us larger jobs numbers. Back on August 3-4, 2000, God made sure no news was big enough to push Bush out of the spotlight. What? A large fire in Idaho? The fight between the RIAA and Napster? These are piddling events.

No, God may have wanted us to pay attention in 2000, but the Lord’s clarion call is clear: ignore George Bush. God hates George W. Bush. There can be no plainer truth than that. He, too, shall pass.

rob,

i may be more of a centrist when it comes to my liberalism…however, my point was, to stop this “talking point” of “liberal = socialism” and “conservative = good”

it’s not a black and white issue, and one can argue that the extremes of both sides are inherrently distructive to progressive ideas.

For me, it is my strongly held belief that progressive/liberalism is largely supportive or rather consists of a socialist agenda. That is in fact my point of view. I’m sorry if it offends you. But I believe historically and ideologically that my belief is grounded on solid evidence. You can trace the ideas from one to the other. Of course not every liberal is a socialist. But the ideas generally are based on socialist philosophy.

As for being destructive to ‘progressive ideas’. That all depends on whether you define ‘progressive’ as a positive in the first place. Maybe we want to be destructive to progressive ideas— if they are not good ideas. Conversely, I listen to arguments that conservative ideas are not ‘good’. Sometimes I agree, and most times I don’t. But I’ll listen, and I’ll also argue my view.

Is God for Goerge Walker Bushjr?
Did Jesus ride an elephant?

David,
So you are you saying man has or will never raise above nature?

Mankind has a destiny to where we do not know. Some seek glory if only for a moment. Some seek fame if only as a villian. While most humans are content to do their daily chores and paryers. Nevertheless, history has shown us time and time again that man’s mind and spirit (that funny feeling we all get) can raise beyond mortal limits to do what must be done.

Can man rise above nature itself?
Yes, yet only when he puts himself least to his fellow man will the evidence be shown.

Henry, man will never rise above its nature. It is its nature to be an imperfect species with allusions and dreams of controlling it.

But this is not the topic of this article. Want to know what is wrong with the concept of perfection? Bush. He is perfect for many, and evil incarnate to others. How can the species or a nation ever rise to perfection if the species cannot and will not even define what that is?

David,
Bush. He is perfect for many, and evil incarnate to others. Well, I have to give to give this one to you.

Not because Bush is prefect or evil, but because he is a simple man. Given a chance at greatness Bush has failed to live up to his sworn oath of office.

The kind of men and women that I’m talking about go against natures call for self suvivial. Protection of family and friends is a greater calling.

Is God voting for Bush? I sure hope so he needs all the help he can get. Yet, enlightenment demands a sacifice of ones self ego. Do you think he has achieved that?

Henry said:

America needs to examine itself and realize that man himself is above nature.

Very well spoken Henry. I read in a good book somewhere, and I quote, God said “let us make man in our image, after our likeness,and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,and over the foul of the air,and over the cattle,and over all the earth,and over all the creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.So God created man in his own image,in the image of God created he him,male and female he created he them.And God blessed them and God said unto them, “be fruitful and multiply,and replentish the earth and subdue it,and have dominion over the fish of the sea,and over the foul of the air,and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said,Behold,I have given you every herb bearing seed,which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,”to you it shall be for meat.And to “every beast of the earth, and to every foul of the air,and to everything that creepeth upon the earth,where in there is life,I have given every green herb for meat,and it was so.And God saw everything that he had made,and behold,it was very good.And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I believe if God said this, he thought man had it in him/her to do it. But he left them to their own and they screwed it up, but thanks to Noah he had mercy and gave us another shot.

Adrienne said:

“God also nearly destroyed the world (great floods) and never apologized. Moses though turned out to be the first Green Party member.”

:^D I love it!

Not so fast Adrienne, You must have skipped chapter 9 of the same book of Genesis you refer to. Starting in verse 8 (again I quote) And God spake to Noah,and to his sons with him saying, And I,”behold,I establish my covenant with you,and with your seed after you.And with every living creature that is with you,of the foul,of the cattle,and of every beast of the earth with you,from all that go out of the ark,to every beast of the earth.And “I will establish my covenant with you,neither shall flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood,neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.And God said,”this is a token of the covevant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you for perpetual generations.I do set my bow (rainbow)in the cloud, and it shall be a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass,when I bring a cloud over the earth,that the bow shall be seen it the cloud.

I had to quote cause I don’t think I could have said it better myself.

I believe in our not so elegant words the means, sorry I won’t do that to you again.
As for God voting for Dubya, We can judge men all we want by what we see, but God tries a man’s heart and only he knows what is in his sheeps hearts.
If you don’t believe (oops,even the devil believes in God!) If you don’t accept God into your heart it don’t matta anyway!!

Great post up there JBOD!

THIS IS GOD,

I ACTUALLY CREATED ALL OF YOU TO ANNOY ME WITH STUPID ONE-SIDED ARGUEMENTS. WE JUST DIDN’T HAVE ANY IN THE COSMOS, THIS WORLD IS ALL JUST A PLACE TO TRY OUT OUR IDEOLOGIES AND SEE IF WE CAN ALL LIVE BY THEM. THAT’S WHAT THE WORLD IS, A QUESTION OF HOW WE CAN ALL LIVE TOGETHER AND TO DO SO BY WHAT GIVEN IDEAL. FROM PARLIAMENTARY GOVERMENT TO FASCISM TO COMMUNISM TO PLURALISM TO ANARCHISM TO THEOCRACY TO POLYTHEISM TO MONOTHEISM TO CAPITALISM TO ISOLATIONISM TO DEMOCRATISM AND SO ON. THAT’S WHAT JESUS WAS TRYING TO SHOW YOU, THE IDEALS THAT WE EMBRACE MUST BE CHANGED TO COINCIDE WITH THE NATURE OF OUR OWN SOULS TO SURVIVE AND GREED IS THE CORRUPTION TO ALL OF OUR IDEOLOGIES, THE BOXES WE TRY TO LIVE IN, AND THE PERSUANCE OF GREED AND WANT IS THE DEAD END OF THE STREET.

THINK ABOUT IT; A TRIBE IN MALI SETS UP A CODE AND BODY OF SUPERSTITIONS TO LIVE BY AND SO BECOMES THE ROOT OF NATIONS, A CODE BORNE OF IDEALS AND BELIEFS, SUCH IS THIS PLACE AND ALL OF IT, TO PERSUE HARMONIOUS COEXISTENCE BY A SET OF IDEALS.

OH AND THAT’S NOT ME TALKING TO GEORGE W BUSH, THAT’S ACTUALLY A SMALL MICROPHONE PUT IN ONE OF BUSH’S FILLINGS, DON’T EVER FALL ASLEEP AT A HALLIBURTON FUNDRAISER, REALLY.

I guess I’ve been outted as being from the religious right. (aka right wing extremist)
sob,sob, (wiping tears away)now I’ve set myself
up for attacks from the extremists the extreme left.he says cowering & quivering in the corner in a fetal position!

Averagejoe,
Thanks for your comment. Mankind itself needs to grow up and act like the adults we say we are. Talk is cheap. What men and women must learn that walking the walk is a lot harder, but much more rewarding in the long run.

God, speak of the devil and he will show up to speak with a fork tongue. How do I know that this God is wrong. Simple, God is speaking above about the evolution of civilization which is mankind’s history. Maybe God would like to explain about the Mason’s Revolution of 15,000 B.C.?

David:

God likely noticed that George W. Bush wasn’t too bad as Texas Governor despite his love of death penalties,

Just obeying what God it says in Exodus 21:12
“He that smiteth a man,so that he die,shall be surely put to death.

Sounds pretty harsh I agree, but murdering other people (even if only 1) is abominable! There is a way to make this a non issue though. If these unfortunate souls would quit murdering people.
It’s more of a determent than plea bargan for manslaughter & getting 10-20 with parole.

David:

While God does not condone war

?????????????????????????????

Numbers 21:1-3
And when king Arad the Canaanite,which dwelt in the south,heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies;then he fought against Israel,and took some of them prisoners.
And Israel vowed a vow unto the Lord,and said,If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand,then I will utterly destroy their cities.
And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Israel,and delivered up the Canaanites;and they utterly destroyed them and their cities:and he called the name of the place Hormah. (which means destruction)

There are many other exsamples, but I won’t bore you with them. (Hasn’t anyone read this book?)
It has always been on the best sellers list!

Okaaaay,

So everybody assumes that the only religion that a supreme being has any relevancy to is Judeo Christianity. There is no evidence of any kind that God has anything to do with any given human religion at all.

Dog biscuits are shaped like little porkchops and bones not because the dog has any relation to those shapes it’s because the owners of the dogs do. These religions may and most certainly have nothing to do with the genesis of our cosmos. It’s man’s stalemated form that presents the Bible or any other ideology as supposedly true and stands irregardless of the facts. GOD is not in a book unless in the atoms thereof.

So why do you all or why are you all quoting biblical scripture? This is nuts!

Do you atleast see your err? There are numerous religions that talk of a supreme being or deity AND just because they talk of such things doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with what is quantafiably real in any sense.

In ages past these people were TRYING to explain or in some ways compensate for their own lack of scientific knowledge that they had in that era. Or to have some sense of control over what we call today Murphy’s Law. Why must Thor and Vishnu have a slapfight over this, who caaaares what the Bible says it’s not real. Yeah right like God is a published author. He creates the universe from nothing and then has time left over to bounce out a novel, people, this is stupid for bringing the Bible into any of this.

Bush and his cronies do it solely because it resonates with those who don’t have any greater grasp of the quanta and physical law that is our cosmos and the myriad mysteries that lie ahead. The Bible sums up nothing but reinforces blindness to further understanding.

MY POINT: THE BIBLE IS NOT GOD.

Sum yung guy,
You are right that the bible is not God; however, the bible is the word of God. It like other guide books of every belief shows man what nature has proven to man to be true.

Line up every religion or mythology you can think of and you will find the common links of mankind. Yes, science can prove most of the facts that are recorded in them, yet even pure science refuses to address the power of nature within humans and our control over it.

Can you explain scienctificly how a person can touch someone without making contact?

Or how about the energy given off and felt by people at a rock concert?

Knowledge of this and other things mankind has found in today’s world can be traced back why before the Bible or any other religion formed. Therefore, as a pure sciencetist you must give in to the facts that man has it within him all the knowledge of the universe. Having the ability to use it wisely and at the right time is a pure leap of faith.

Folks, the subject of this article was not God or Religion. God was a literary tool to convey a political message.

Please discuss the content of the article or the comments section will have to be closed. Thanks.

-

H-E-N-R-Y S-C-H-L-A-T-M-A-N (cue up ray of light)

GOD AGAIN,Hi.

Everything we do is based on an ideal and policy. Have kids? Then you have a body of policies and ideals. You probably have the same at work, a body of policies and ideals or when you are out in public or perhaps in your relationship with a spouse you have a body of policies and ideals and even an expectation formed of them. Nations have policies and ideals, if you belong to a church or synogogue they have a body of policies and ideals.

Now how can the world be anything BUT a place to try out our ideals and policies to see if they hold water? I ask you. The tedious part is trying to live by them whether personal or governmental and sometimes if well thought out and responsive to change they do well and when they don’t it goes awry? You have and make these things and so does the government and heck even the universe has physical laws.

the world that man creates is a body of someone’s or some groups ideals and policies they try to put into place and hopes it fits and sits well with all the conditions around them. Even Bush is trying out his doctrine. The world is a place for man to try out these things, man dreams them up and puts them out there or puts them in place either in his own personal life or out in the world before him dependent on his level of influence and power.

People just want to mount each other is what I think it is. Everybody knows better than others and so the world revolves. Klonk each other with mallets until the very sheetmetal of humanity is hammered out into the shape and form that person likes.

Then is that the meaning of the world..NO that’s just the meaning we place upon it.

David, sorry it got into all that, (I knew they would fly off the handle though). I did however keep my answers directly responding with statements in the text.I don’t know where all that other crap came from,(well maybe I do) The statements in the article were asking what God would do, so I just went to what is (supposedly) his word. Every other thread people go to other books & lenghty links for their responces.I’m new here so I don’t really know what is out of bounds. I have held back to their attacks though, attempting to stay within the perimiters of the text. If I have failed to do so I appologize.

I ain’t afeared to put my name on my posts though! I wouldn’t fess up to those either
guys!

God, again you are proven wrong. Creation and Evolution exist on two seperate plains. Your quoted version of the truth shows mans fight for civilization. Yes, man makes stupid miscalulations with his God given right of freewill. Yes, man uses knowledge and lies to get what he wants. Yes, God man is an animal who has not educated himself in the true meaning of life.

But God tell why when humanity crys mankind has the power to move mountains of BS at will? How is in times of fear and trouble mankind can over come such maddness? Why does mankind strive to go on when even hope itself is lost?

The spirit of the knowledge of life itselve is not understood by man, but we continue to evolve our civilization only to tear down that what has offended us for so long.

I would go on, but I think the right needs to ask themselve a very serious question. Do you serve God or does God serve you? The answer may surprise you. Hint: Think about freewill.

Comments deleted for failing to observe our Critique the Message, Not the Messenger policy.

Henry:

I would go on, but I think the right needs to ask themselve a very serious question. Do you serve God or does God serve you? The answer may surprise you. Hint: Think about freewill.

I’ve enjoyed your posts in this thread,and pretty much agree mith most,including this one except that the question you pose should be asked of everyone of all parties and beliefs.
Except not as a group, but individually.

I still haven’t answered Davids question,it is indeed a tough one. I would love to say the republicans , but I’m just not that sure. Over all the third party is probably more neutral,the democrats probably give more to the poor directly, but is it out of the heart or to get votes? But by tithing to the church which goes indirectly to the poor,but is that out of their heart or to be “seen of men”?,and that’s every group, non Christians give to organizations that help. Perplexing question David. I think unfortunatly it’s another one of those he’ll stand back and let us screw up on our own!

Sure is hard to constrain myself on some of those unclaimed posts up there David! There are scriptures to shoot down all the coherent jarble, that’s mixed in with the globs of empty words. I would like to ask,if I may, I understand how life,as in trees & plants could evolve. But intelligent life is another thing.Just how would emotions,feelings,thoughs,
breath,sight, etc. Just what would they evolve from? Just something to think about.

Emotions are simple and rather basic survival devices. Hear that snapping branch? You should be afraid and run. Is that critter eating your kill? Better get juiced and fight. Of course emotions are expanded and compounded by larger brains, and our frontal lobe makes things a complete mess.

A few anthropologists theorize that language developed due to dogs. As our proto-civilized societies grew and produced more garbage, dogs learned how to tolerate humans at close proximity to scavange. Eventually we found a mutually beneficial relationship but our methods of communicating might have been wanting, i.e. different body language, and because of this we might have developed vocalizations to direct our new buddies.

Just theories as they always will be but there is definitely a lot of study and research in these areas.

I can explain theories of the evolution of eyes, too, if you like.

I realize the “hear that” response, that is easy. What I was asking about is the living “critter” and that “dog” you speak of. Living & bleeding life. You know, rock to brain.The evolution theory
starts after the hard part. And even after the hard part, into relativly recent history depends on several “missing links” to support itself.

averagejoe and JB,
Do yourself a favor and web search “Sarasvati.” It seems that civilization has been around a lot longer than Western Civilization would have us to believe.

3000+BC is a neat date and will add to your knowledge of our world. Ask yourselve why did the Brits destory the original books of that time and rewrite them to meet their standards.

By the way, you neither serve God nor God serve you, yet beware your actions does have cause and effects that will be judged.

averagejoe,

I realize the “hear that” response, that is easy.

Well, you mentioned emotions. Emotions are relatively recent on the timeline of life on Earth, so it necessarily entails discussion of those biological principles that come late, i.e. after the “hard part.”

You know, rock to brain.The evolution theory starts after the hard part. And even after the hard part, into relativly recent history depends on several “missing links” to support itself.

There are gaps, of course, and I know that the theory of evolution has some major inadequacies, but the general idea is sound. And there is a very well-studied timeline of life’s development on Earth (from rocks to brains).

Research has shown that the creation of fundamental organic material can be facilitated with an electric charge applied to the mix of elements abundantly present at the time when life was believed to have arisen. Lightning is the obvious catalyst.

We go from component elements in the soil/water/air mixture of the Earth’s surface coming together to form structures that are the basis of all life as we know it. It goes on from there to cyanobacteria through plants, invertebrates, vertebrates, primates, hominids, and us.

Nervous systems are old technology. Obviously it had extremely rudimentary capabilities at first, but if those capabilities included squirm around, eat, and reproduce, that’s a winning formula. From there it’s a numbers game.

What we call emotions are nervous systems’ primary motivators for complex, large-bodied critters. Fear death, hate impediments, love accomplishments. It’s just a mix of biochemical states, neural path formation and genetic encoding. The human brain is the latest advancement of nervous system technology on the timeline of life so most of what we work with emotionally was developed long before us. The only difference in our processing and understanding of emotion is due to our cerebral cortex which allows us the highly abstract technologies of speech and mathematics and biology to help us dissect and classify our experiences.

Henry, most of the books I’ve read and referenced place the very early beginnings of civilization around 7000 BCE. I’ll check into your suggestion though.

JB,
Ask yourself why they mark it BC”E” instead of BC like it is in Western Civilization.

BCE stands for Before Common Era. BCE/CE are the secular alternatives to BC/AD. Otherwise they are equivalent. 7000 BCE = 7000 BC.

The Sarasvati are an ancient culture around the Indus and Sarasvati rivers. From the sites brought up by a Google search, the concensus seems to be that they existed from 3000 - 1700 BCE, predating the Aryans.

3000 BCE is long before historical accounts started but the Middle East had aldready been civilized for many thousands of years by this time. The oldest discovered city is Chatal Huyuk (in modern Turkey) which dates back to at least 6800 BCE. By 3000 BCE in this region the Sumerian culture was highly developed and prosperous.

It would interesting to know what you’re trying to get at, though.

JB,
If you dug into the era of Sarasvati you will find that a Brit rewrote the original books and than had them destroyed. Also, you will find that the area dates back to at least 26,000 BC. Sorry I don’t have the exact web sites, but if you cross reference Sanskrit (the language) and Sarasvati (the area) you will find they have a Tri system religion like the Holy Bible.

Now, I’m not one to speculate very much, but it seems sort of strange that Sanskrit language and customs vanishes about the same time the Western Civilization begins their writen history. Thus, it would explain the lapse in time in the Bible.

JB,
Heres a web site I think you might be interested in. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm
linktext

Also check out the words “Veda” & “Voyu”

look, everyones talking about god and perhaps they have know idea who he is.

I promise everyone of you that, yes, god is backing president bush. GOD is not about to allow his country to be govern by Kerry who will more than likely legalize all abortions, gay marriages, etc etc.

This Country was found by God through George Washington. This country was set up to have religous freedom. People may say that they have there right to haver abortions and what not but it goes completly against GOD. Almost everything Kerry stand for is against GOD. I wish that everyone could have an understanding as I do about god, but one day we will stand before him to be judged of his beloved son Jesus Christ. I promise you all and we see you all there at that day.

May GOD continue to protect our beloved country according to our rightousness.

Justin

And if Kerry wins, is it God’s will? What about if Bush wins. Yep, I thought so.

Daw,
What about freewill? What about judge not? If your God does not allow these things than maybe you better read the last book of the old testiment and challange your God. I have and trust me it will open your eyes to a whole new world.

Henry said:

Daw,
What about freewill? What about judge not? If your God does not allow these things than maybe you better read the last book of the old testiment and challange your God. I have and trust me it will open your eyes to a whole new world.

Henry,
God does allow us to judge,just not in the context of being critical of others. There has to be judgment otherwise there would be total chaos.
“judge righteously.”

Quote from Jesus:
I am come a light into the world,that whosever believeth on me shall not abide in darkness and if any man hear my words and believe not,”I judge him not,for I come not to judge the world,but to save the world.He that rejecteth me,and receiveth my words,hath one that judgeth him;the word that I have spoken,the same shall judge him in the last day.For “I have not spoken of myself,but the father that sent me,he gave me a commandment,what I should say,and what I should speak.”

Revelation, my favorite! Which part are you refering to? 3:10;Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, (trial)which will come upon the whole world to try (test) them that dwell upon the earth.
(skipping over a whole lot of good stuff to not bore you)

20:13-15; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;”and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them;and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life “was cast into the lake of fire.

But have you read it with Gods wisdom or man’s wisdom? If you have read Revelation, I assume you have also read the proverbs of Solomon? When you accept God as your personal savior he gives you the true understanding of the “dark sayings” in the Bible. Prov.1:1-9 The fear (deep reverential awe)of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

I Cor.2:14; But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God :for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

That is what is bad about people interpreting Gods word without being a child of God.They take it out of context.

I have been reluctant to choose until now, because I’ve been looking at the people as individuals nationwide & don’t believe that the majority of liberals stand behind their parties platform,obviously ( indeed, most probably don’t have a clue what the whole platform is!)But since we are talking about him voting for a man that represents his party platform, I have to agree with Justin. (Bush)

As far as challenging my God, I believe I’ll pass.You know;Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. ;) Remember Justin, this great nation has the freedom of religion & as much as we desire for everyone to enter our God’s kingdom. Ultimately, the decision is theirs. Remember, “Behold I stand at the door & knock,” of course talking about the door of their heart. Also, the things people do aren’t what keeps them from going to heaven. Not believing in Jesus Christ, (and him crusified)is.
But then again,if you don’t believe in God,you also don’t believe in heaven or hell either!
I personally choose to have my name written in the book of life. (It’s all about ones faith.Choose ye this day which God you will serve) :)

I guess the real question is, how much does god not exist. 10? 20? 30? I don’t mean to seem carried away but I think that he doesnt exist about 30.

I guess the real question is, how much does god not exist. 10? 20? 30? I don’t mean to seem carried away but I think that he doesnt exist about 30.

Posted by: BadReligion at September 23, 2004 09:56 PM

That’s what is great arout our country, you can believe what you choose. From God to Budda to crawling out of a slime pit & getting struck by lightning,to whatever you choose to believe that he doesn’t exist 30. (and so elequintly spoken)

averagejoe and bad religion,
Read the Book of Malachi in the Kings Saint James version of the Bible. Than ask yourself where does Bush and Company stand in front of God.