Third Party & Independents: Archives

Vote as your conscience sees fit, but let me trouble that conscience with a thought: What if the person in question is truly remorseful and repentant of what they’ve done?

If that person has confessed his sins to those affected by it, what good do we do by sticking the telescope in their bedroom now? How can we claim enough knowledge to truly condemn them?

I don’t know about you, but I think good Christian behavior in public entails the ability to forgive sins more than the willingness to expose them.

I’m waiting for the Time article before I pass judgement on Kerry. I never intended to vote Democrat unless the Libertarian candidate was a complete waste of time (there’s something for you conspiracy theorists to try and spin).

I think Kerry could do a much better job of handling this, right now he looks like he’s trying to kill it with blanket denials, which may work while it’s only on the Internet, but since this is taking off and hitting newspapers, he should confront the issue and come clean if he’s done anything wrong.

You’re right in saying that scandals do matter, but we have to keep our eye on the other things that matter and weigh them accordingly, I just wish we could throw the whole lot out and start over.

Eisenhower cheated on his wife for years, and is now considered by many to be the second-best modern US president (after FDR, of course). I’ll take an adulterer over an incompetent any day.

Rob, are you married? Are you young? As I posted on another thread, the majority of human beings are adulterers, and I would bet that people who tend to be poweful, intelligent, famous, etc, probably cheat even more than that. That’s why it’s really none of my or your business, and you shouldn’t base your political opinions on things that are none of your business.

-Cf

CF, you are on the edge of troll-baiting here. Please focus on Rob’s subject matter and arguments and NOT on Rob personally. Our policy of Critiquing the Message, Not the Messenger is enforced. We respect your opinions and debate provided it remains within our guidelines.

WatchBlog Manager.

Eisehower the 2nd best modern president?
After FDR?

HAHAHAHA.. stop it, you’re killing me.

Must be a Kucinich backer, looking back fondly to the days when Ike refused to cut the top tax rate from 90%, or when FDR didn’t like the Supreme court rulings, so he tried to change it to 13 justices so he could pack it.

Puulleeeeezzz!

First, I’d like to thank everyone for their comments. Stephen, while I agree that forgiveness is ‘good Christian behavior’, I don’t think that really has anything to do with how I decide to vote. For example, if Kerry was having an affair, it is not at all my position to forgive or not forgive him. He didn’t betray me. But I will judge my vote on how he keeps his promises, and especially on how he keeps the promises that are, or should be, important to him.
SoL, I also anxiously await the Time article. I think Kerry’s denials so far are sorta odd in that Don Imus didn’t directly ask him if he had an affair, and he didn’t directly say he didn’t. Should be interesting either way how this shakes out..
wcw (former fan of that wrasslin org here), I guess we will agree to disagree. My feelings are much closer to Mike’s in that I think Ike would rank behind a number of modern Presidents, including our current one. I also feel adultery or other personal failings can be used as ‘markers’ in determining competence.
Chris, I feel strongly that this IS our business. A candidate has every right to say ‘bug off, i’m not answering this question, and if you don’t like it, don’t vote for me.’ Most people will not hold political office, will not be judged by the bills they pass or the speeches they give. Rather they will be judged by how they treat those that are close to them and care about them. The way our candidates handle this responsibility we share with them gives us a unique insight into who they are, how they compare with us, and whether we want them leading our country.

FDR had an affair too…

BUT, In reference to IMUS not asking directly…Do we soil elections even more by asking canidates about every rumor we’ve heard about them? I do think, that it was respectful not to ask directly based off of a rumor from a right wing news portal. Matt Drudge, has gotten things wrong before…and whne he does, he never seems to print an apology. IF, he had a good accuracy rate, don’t you think he’d be on talk radio more than 1 night a week?

But it is a nice distraction from those pesky National Guard records, now isn’t it?

And aren’t both of them a nice distraction from the new jobs numbers released? And, well, too many things to list here.

I currently, do not have health insurance, and 2 parents that lost their jobs in the past year, one over x-mas, These are my concerns.

If someone has been known for infidelities, but, I think that they can help this country with jobs for all people, and helath insurance for all people, they will get my vote.

in re: jobs and health care, I agree. as I said: competence before fidelity.

off-topic, but yes, the current “modern president” canon (i.e., FDR and those subsequent) reads #1 FDR, #2 Ike.

without FDR there was a high risk that the US would not exist in its current form as a liberal, representative democracy. start with Norman Thomas’s “on a stretcher” quote and move one from there. sure, if you hate the idea that the government has some responsibility for the welfare of the people, you hate FDR because of his expansion of federal power. in that case, you probably hate the very idea of the presidency, too, and should probably just admit it.

Ike was precisely what the US needed at the time. supply-side nostrums aside (my guess is that his continuation of Truman’s wartime price controls has to piss off the voodoo-economics priesthood even more than Ike’s top marginal bracket), his biggest flaw was probably giving in to Dulles’s more foolish moves. he seemed amiable, but he was ETO commander for a reason.

but I’ll give you a chance: who’s better, and why?

Well, I am not as worried about a person’s extra curricular activities at the Presidental level as I am on how they handle the serious issues. I believe President Clinton could have been more prudent and not taken oral sex in our House, but that is not what bothers me about his administration. Not dealing with N. Korea, Not taking Sudan’s offer in 1998 to turn over Bin Laden, hi tech items to China, those are what I worry about.

Hate President Bush or Love him, he has had a terrible 4 years to deal with and I believe has handled it in a great way. My mother, the Stuanch Centrist Democrat she is cannot stand him. My only comment to her is:

1. The internet bubble burst in 2000, no matter what party was in office, we would be financially in the same boat

2. World Trade Center

3. Threts from N. Korea

4. Our most trusted Allies turning their back on us, after we have bailed them out many times (France, Germany and Russia).

My mom says we are looked at as Arrogant to the rest of the world. I say “good for us” It is no secret that we are the super power in the world and it is no secret that we profess our beliefs on others (we do it to our kids as parents everyday).

I do not care if Senator Kerry, as old as he is was taken in by some young 20 or 30 something. It could happen to the best of us I assume.

I say give President Bush another 4 years without all this Chaos and then we can better measure him as a leader. I just look at it this way, with all that has happened to our country, during the last 3 years, who would I have rather had in the office, President Bush or Vice President Gore and the answer is clear to me.

We live in the Greatest Country on this earth and between my wife and I we have served a combined 35+ years in the Defense of this country. I love America, been too many places to make me understand that.

The problem with adultery of a candidate or president may not be the adultery per se but the complications of the adultery for the person and the nation.

The president like JFK, who compromised not only his personal security but the security of the nation by engaging in liasons with Judith Exner—a woman with ties to the mob—suggests the potential for disaster a testesterone-driven chief executive nurtures.

Even those who would wink at Clinton’s cigar or RFK’s involvement with saving JFK from the fruit of his dalliances must surely consider these presidents guilty of almost unfathomably poor judgment.

Can we be so sure that a man who would involve himself with a relative stranger is capable of segregating such adolescent imprudence from matters of state?

Or that the wife of such a man would suffer quietly as did Jaqueline Kennedy or Hillary Clinton?

Is it beyond plausibility that one day the drama of Othelllo could unfold in the White House because of jealousy, envy, and opportunity?

Should Kerry be found to have used the power of his office to seduce a woman I think it also speaks to a capacity for using such powers in other less noble ways.

The issue of infidelity for a President, or presidential candidate, revolves around a character issue. I recognize that the “left” (I will use “left” and “right” as generalities) did not want character used as an issue during the Clinton candidacy and presidency, though many on the left seem willing to look at W’s character as a flaw.

Assessing a candidate’s character is an essential task in determining whether they are capable of the job. For instance, Howard Dean’s experience as governor of a small state (and for that matter, Bush’s and Clinton’s experience in their respective states) doesnt give them on the job training as president. Their character, however, flows through everything, and is what allows them to be the president they will become.

Last thing: it galls me that if a private first class in the marine corps, while standing watch at a US embassy, were to have an affair, they would be summarily and dishonorably dismissed as a security threat. Yet for a president or candidate to do the same thing, people lend excuse after excuse about how it is private and not a part of the job. If it is part of the job for the PFC, then why not for the PRESIDENT?

> it galls me that if a private first class in
> the marine corps, while standing watch at a US
> embassy, were to have an affair, they would be
> summarily and dishonorably dismissed as a
> security threat.

There are thousands of rules that Marine privates have to follow, many of which are immensely intrusive into their personal lives. They even forfeit a good deal of their basic constitutional rights. None of this applies to those holding elected office, particularly not the President. The analogy isn’t totally fair.

That said, you do raise a good point: I’ll admit that another reason Clinton’s infidelity troubled me is that his shenanigans could have led to a security lapse. Lewinsky might have tricked him into revealing national secrets.

But then again, Bush got tricked by Ahmad Chalabi into invading Iraq, and as far as we know they weren’t even having sex.

-Cf

Christopher:

I must admit, I like your style, especially the comment about Bush and Chalabi. While of course you are presuming facts not in evidence (which tends to be a trait of some republicans and many democrats), you did make me laugh heartily.

People tend to scoff at the idea of Monica Lewinsky being a spy—-I for one dont think she has nearly the brains nor the body for it. But, sex has been used as a weapon for years. The real issue for me was that had a foreign govt found out about the “affair”, they could have used it for blackmail. And considering some of the shaky dealings the Clinton admin had with China, well, maybe its not so far fetched after all….

Or I could just be taking on the conpiracy theorist nature that many on the left ascribe to.

Well sakes alive!?!…this man has no place in politics. What kind of example does it set for our children!!!

I live in Montana in a militia compound and we don’t need to do those sorts of things in our elections! why should they?

Our cult leader just this morning told us he heard God tell him that we need to stop world corruption and keep the kids out of the ammo shed after seven thirty. When God speaks we listen, why can’t they?
God does’nt like this sort of thing and he will smote you hard for it too I might ad. I’m running off pamphlets:)

When Jesus comes back we will all be better off except for me I’ll be called up to heaven for the rapture, but I’ll be back.