Third Party & Independents: Archives

I can’t believe we have 9 more months of ‘dirty politics” to wade through just to discuss the issues of importance, validity, and consequence to the electorate.

I have never understood what it is about Karl Rove that has people so riled up. So, I clicked on your link. About 75% of it is about Don Segretti. Then it goes on to detail stuff like leaking false memo’s about Jeb’s vulnerability, etc, etc. This stuff is so tame compared to what we’ve become accustomed to during the Clinton era that it seems almost naive and childlike rather than Machiavellian. I mean, with Harold Ickes and Chris Lehane and Hillary and Carville and Begala et al. we had plots within plots within plots. We had murder/suicides, smearing of rape victims, pet killings, unbelievable tales of treachery and deceit. Lives ruined. Human wreckage. Jail, Sorry, Rove seems kind of lame. Lee Atwater even… but Rove?

For the last time. No one accused Max Cleland of being unpatriotic. He was criticized for his liberal voting record as a Senator from a conservative state. The main issue was his refusal to vote for the homeland security bill because it (rightfully) stiffed the public unions. He was accused of putting union special interests above national security, and for Georgia voters, that was the last straw. If the Republicans dared call him unpatriotic, they would have lost that seat 90-10. The voters in Georgia aren’t stupid. They didn’t agree with Max Cleland’s positions on the issues. The unpatriotic flap is an excuse for sore losers.

Enough with the Max Cleland is a hero crap. He lost his limbs because while he and his friends were walking to the club for a beer he saw a hand granade on the ground and picked it up….then he dropped it on his foot and the granade went off. He did this in Vietnam in an area where booby traps were common.

He’s done a lot with his life. Being a hero in Vietnam ain’t one of them. Being stupid in VietNam IS one of them.

(Comment deleted by Watchblog Manager for name calling and foul language).

The Bush AWOL issue is a nonissue. The fact that the dems keep trying to make it an issue may force me to vote for a republican for the first time.

Politics is a dirty game however you look at it. The Push Poll was down there with the lowest, no doubt. John McCain is a great man. With that being said you must vote your conscience, what falls in line with your beliefs. I am a steadfast Republican, and I am clearly upset with some of the policies the Bush Administration has put forth, but my main concern is NATIONAL SECURITY! John Kerry’s U.N. Army is not going to protect us from anything.

Happy to hear you’ll be voting for the Democrat for the first time. And for the right justifications, also.

You bring up great points in your article.

Yep - nobody is questioning Cleland’s patriotism, though I sure would like to question his intelligence, not to mention his honesty.

And I can’t believe that people are so hung up on Bush’s war time record. He was in the Guard when the war was winding down, so give him a break for not being deployed like Guardsmen today, that are deployed to Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

Anybody who insults Bush for being in the Guard is insulting Guardsmen on duty right now, in the War on Terror. How come you geniuses don’t see that equivalence?

And as a third-party supporter (Libertarian), I’m not too excited about Bush’s record. But vote for sleazebag Kerry instead? Or Howard “I have a scream” Dean? Or John “McDonalds Lawsuit” Edwards? Jeez, get a reality check fellas.

No one is insulting Bush for being in the Guard. That is coming from Republicans who are using the phrase to misdirect from the real questions:

• How did Bush get into the Guard after scoring the lowest possible passing score on the aptitude test


• Why did Bush miss his annual flight physical, get suspended from flying and not fly his last 2 years in the Guard

Nobody questioned Cleland’s patriotism. They questioned his judgment in trying to union-ize the Department of Homeland Security. He got voted out because of poor decisions.

If the posters here object to the veracity of Bush’s Natl Guard service as an issue, I wonder what their thoughts are on the gay marriage issue?

AWOL-gate IS an important issue, because it goes to the heart of the word the Conservatives rightly fear - credibility.

On Meet The Press, Bush promised the release of all of his military records. Instead, only parcels that, so far, are not making this issue go away, are spoonfeed to the media.

I would assume the same posters will dismiss as a non-issue, the adminstration’s stonewalling of the 9/11 commission and it’s refusal to hand over important documents. What is there to hide? Goes to the question of credibility.

I recommend a reading of the 2/12 Progress Report at: americanprogress.org

Yet another good reason to vote Democratic in November.

Rev Matt:

Have you been playing ostrich for the past couple of decades, if not more? To blame Karl Rove for having “invented modern dirty politics” sounds simply ludicrous, especially when one delves into only the most recent of history to consider the likes of James Carville and Lee Atwater.

To be so openly disengenuous leads me to believe that this will NOT be your “first year ever voting for a Democrat”. Obviously both parties are experts at dirty politics (look at how the Democrats villianized Newt Gingrich, Bob Livingston and Dan Quayle, while Repubs painted Al Gore into a lying, fibbing figurehead).

To simply view dirty politics as a Republican trait is to be quite partisan, which leads me to believe that you are either truly blind to the objective truths here, or have an agenda to further in your comments.

I wonder which one is right.

Let’s see..the website ran by the same person who does work for Clark and is touting the Kerry scandal as a scoop is complaining about dirty politics from Republicans? Talk about a look in the mirror moment. No wonder Clark never got anywhere if this is an example of his team…

Looks like this WMD issue is blowing up big time. They’ve been ‘sposed my friends. I don’t think Kerry’s womanizing will stack up against hundreds of dead and thousands of wounded Americans for a sham.

Good Bye Bush and I hope Jeb’s career is over too! NO MORE BUSHES!

A hopelessly naive and ignorant article. Karl Rove invented dirty politics? Have you not heard of Richard Nixon’s plumbers? Joe Kennedy and Mayor Daly’s vote fraud, LBJ’s nuclear bomb ad in 64, Willie Horton-done by both Al Gore and BushI.
Politics is rough and tumble. No party has a lock on dirty politics. To think otherwise is naive and partisan.

I find it hilarious that all of these conservatives assume that just because they never heard of Karl Rove until 2000 that he simply didn’t exist. Rove started out in the 60’s working for… Nixon! He spent most of the 70’s working for the GOP under Bush the Elder teaching courses in dirty politics.

Learn a little about the history before making assumptions.

Howard Veit:
> He lost his limbs because while he and his
> friends were walking to the club for a beer
> he saw a hand granade on the ground and
> picked it up….

Regarding Max Cleland’s injuries being sustained in this manner: I did a bunch of searches for it, and the only references I can find are Ann Coulter articles. Is there any other evidence of this, or is it just something Coulter pulled out of her ass again?

I mean, did you think that maybe he was saving his fellow soldiers’ lives from the grenade or something. You (and Coulter) make it sound like he just wandered over to a misplaced grenade like a stumbling WC Fields and picked it up and pulled the pin out. Ever consider the possibility that maybe someone threw it at them?!

-Cf

Okay, so Rove an company never actually said that Max Cleeleand was unpatriotic. They said that he was weak on national security because he favored the unions. The deeper meaning, and the one that Georgia voters bought, was that voting for this combat veteran would somehow make the country less safe. Personally, I don’t care how Cleeland was wounded, the fact that he was serving saya alot. The fact was that when Bush was partying, and obstensibly serving in the national guard, and Dean was skiing, this man was risking his life.
Politics has always been a dirty business, and will probably always be one. (Anyone remember the Hamilton-Burr duel?) In fact politicians adopted the term from the military, to mean a battle. So Rove and company have not invented dirty politics, they may have raised it to a new level, but not invented it. Also, both parties give just as good as they get.
And just like you Rev. Matt, I too will be voting for a Democrat for President this fall for the first time.

Until I see a post from rev_matt denouncing this site and the editor named “sol” for taking credit for being the first to have the scoop on the Kerry “scandal” then this is just another example of Dems’ hypocrisy. I hope rev_matt calls on “sol” to apologize and name the person who passed that obviously false (right?)information

To bushsux, remember the 2002 mid-terms…that get rid of Jeb Bush rhetoric really did y’all good. T Mac, the Clintons, James Carville, and everybody else was campaigning there using the same tired message and Jeb Bush was re-elected in a landslide. So please, I encourage more of the same this year. We need to get a filibuster proof Senate. Thanks for the help.

Why on earth would I denounce this site for anything? I haven’t followed the Kerry intern issue, I don’t read Drudge, and I didn’t bother reading any of the posts about the ‘scandal’ because I frankly don’t care about it. More to the point, if you have a problem with sol, take it up with him, not me. I have no responsibility for the actions of other people. If you want to try to enlist me into your cause, whatever it may be, you will find yourself sorely disappointed.

Another point, I’m not entirely sure why people keep telling me I’m a Democrat. For some reason a lot of people (both Republican and Democrat) assume that if you don’t support Bush then you’re a Democrat. That’s absurd. I know plenty of Republicans who don’t support Bush, and a few Democrats who do. Beyond that, there are more than two perspectives on politics. I have been voting since 1988. I have never voted for a Democratic or a Republican for President. I voted for Frank Zappa in 1988, and Ralph Nader in all subsequent elections. This seems to be an idea that is incomprehensible to some subset of people. I don’t know why. I dislike the Dems only marginally less than the Reps. My vote for the Democrat this year is simply a vote for the lesser of two evils, in my opinion.

On Cleland : The next Dem that brings him up should ask themselves who they voted for in 92 and 96. A draft dodger (Clinton) or a war hero (Bush and Dole)? I have a sneaky suspicion that the draft dodger got most of their votes. How could they have voted against Dole ?!? Why he’s even partially crippled !! How dare the Dems base their vote on issues !! Things like voting record, speeches or party platform shouldn’t matter when the man’s a crippled war hero right ? Ohh I forgot, crippled war heroes only get their applause if the hero has a “D” after their name….

Kerry should call Carville. Carville is an expert in the “nuts & sluts” defense and it usually works unless there is some DNA evidence.

Rev Matt:

That you take some semblance of pride in the fact that you voted for frank zappa, followed by ralph nader several times is laughable. At least Nader is a politician, though, even if he is one without a chance of winning. He does run on his beliefs, and he did (as ross perot did before him) influence the outcome of an election. But to take pride in casting a vote for Zappa?? That is simply lame, my friend, and this comes from one who considers zappa a great musician.

Your “new found” Democratic leanings are simply a veneer. You show yourself by your history and your comments to be a far left liberal—and one who despises bush regardless of any facts that might lead you to conclude differently. You merely make your conclusion, then select the facts to fit it. How sad.

Dirty politics is disgusting, whichever side of the aisle you’re on. But this ‘issue’ about the President’s National Guard service is weak! I challenge ANYONE out there to come up with every paystub for an entire year for whatever PRIMARY job they held 36 years ago, never mind your secondary job. I bet most of us can’t even produce our tax returns from 36 years ago. I’m amazed, frankly, that they came up with as many paystubs as they did. Anyone who gives credence to the issue needs to be taken off the tax rolls.

Ok, Im a little sick of people calling Clinton a draft-dodger.

He was studying at Oxford…now yes, it was during the time that young men were being drafted for Vietnam, however, a large number of young men were saved from the draft by attending college. He may have circumvented the draft, however, calling him a draft-dodger, which is an illegal offense, was not what he did. To continue to insist that he did is innacurate. Much like saying he was impeached for having an affair…he was impeached for purgery.

If I am wrong, please provide insight as to educate me.

Rob:

My compliments to you. I am as sick of people calling Clinton a draft dodger as I am of hearing people say Bush was a deserter. The truth is that both Clinton and Bush (along with Howard Dean even Al Gore to a lesser extent) used legal means to avoid the war. The truth also is that thousands and thousands of young men who did not want to face the prospect of dying in foreign jungles avoided the war as well.

It is honorable to have fought for your country. I suppose there could be a measure of principle, or perhaps selfishness, or even cowardice in some cases, but the only illegalities were those who chose to run away.

The rhetoric of our nation seems to have declined. Mistakes are now called lies. Those who did not see military action are called deserters ordraft-dodgers. It makes me sad to see that people have to be so vicious in their commentary in order to feel they have been heard.

Rob—thanks for taking a step backwards to a more civil tone.

> The truth is that both Clinton and Bush
> (along with Howard Dean even Al Gore to
> a lesser extent) used legal means to
> avoid the war.

I totally agree with this - lots of people avoided the draft, many of whom are fine people.

But… I still think it’s worth looking into Bush’s service record. Yes, it may have been *legal* for him to ask his superiors for “wink-wink” permission to not show up for duty for broad stretches of time. But today he’s been saying he *was there*, that he did his “duty”.

Nobody with a brain is alleging that Bush broke the law and deserted his post without permission. But it seems likely based on the evidence that he has been lying about what actually happened. Perhaps he’s trying to cover up the particular circumstances around the way he managed to (probably legally) avoid service? What were those circumstances?

There’s a big difference between getting some kind of gentleman’s permission to avoid duty (which is what I and many others suspect may have happened) and actually doing the duty (which is what the President says happened).

In a moment of candor, Bush did once acknowledge that he joined the Guard to avoid going to Vietnam (i think it was in 1996). I admire such frankness from candidates (Gore, too, was sometimes frank in admitting that he was probably in no danger when he was in Vietnam).

Like Kerry, I don’t begrudge anyone for their decision to avoid the dangers of military service in Vietnam - I don’t even begrudge those who fled to Canada or those who faked physical impediments (it would be wrong to condemn them simply because they couldn’t afford college or didn’t have powerful parents). I *do*, however, begrudge those who proudly claim to have served their country when, in fact, they did not.

-Cf