Third Party & Independents: Archives

FROM THE ARTICLE….

“Months after the troops settled into occupation duty, they were camped out in primitive, dust-blown shelters without windows or air conditioning. The Army has invested heavily in modular barracks, showers, bathroom facilities and field kitchens, but troops in Iraq were using ramshackle plywood latrines and living without fresh food or regular access to showers and telephones.”

Obviously this guy (journalist) has not ever been in the military. This is just hyperbole. Noone in the military expects luxury except for the Navy and Air Force, who rarely see anything but computer screens and tasking for Tomahawk missiles. What a joke. Remember WW2?, did the soldiers complain about “plywood”, “ramshackle” barracks….air conditioning? Nope, they ate cold rations from a can and fought with thier hearts. Unfortunately someone with no experience in the military can’t understand the mindset of the Infantryman, typical.
This is a TOTAL Joke. Since when does an infantryman have access to a @#^%$@# telephone in the middle of a war!!!???
Perhaps MR. Martin should ask a soldier.

Pete—

Your ignorance of the other services is showing. For your information Pete I have served with soldiers, Airman and Marines. I still know a fair number still in the service, and I am aware of the conditions in Iraq first hand. And while you might think yourself more of a man (solider?) when you rouge it, doing so in Washington State is far different from doing so in the desert where the temperature can reach 110 degrees in the shade, and your armored vehicle gets so hot you have to wear gloves to touch it! Walk a mile young ignorant one before you speak.

As for the Navy, try spending half a year at sea and then wax poetic about luxury. Try working 18 hours days for weeks on end, seven days a week, and then speak to me about luxury; try sleeping on a hammock for three months underway, then speak to me of luxury; try sleeping next to a Mark 48 torpedo for four months in the very cramped and noisy torpedo room of a 638 attack submarine, and then write me a letter about luxury; try sharing a rack (bed) with a teammate for three months, 100 men sharing two heads (latrines) with a total of three shower stalls, and three toilets, then write me a speech about luxury; try taking a three minute shower, many times in cold water, or try working in an engine room where the temperature can reach upwards to 120 degrees and you sweat so much that you can consume 2 gallons of water a day, and can go for weeks on end without seeing the sky, or breathing fresh air, then sing me a song about luxury; try going to sea for 3.5 months and not having fresh fruit, eggs, milk, and vegetables after the first week, then lets commiserate about luxury; try drinking water that smells and tastes like diesel fuel for an entire deployment, then tell me again how the Navy lives and works in luxury; try working on the desk of an aircraft carrier conducting flight operations with planes taking off and landing ever three minutes, then tell again how the Naval personnel are coddled; try sleeping in a berthing compartment under a flight deck while flight operation are ongoing, then tell me how much sleep you get.

Pete, I have done things and been places in my fifteen years in the Navy that were so far removed from “luxury” as to make your blood run cold. Please speak from a position of knowledge next time you comment on one of my posts, not ignorance.

And this is 2003, not 1944. Yes the men were tough, so are the men serving in Iraq and they deserve more then “plywood”, “ramshackle” barracks for serving their country in harms way; they deserve the best we can provide. Would you, if you deployed to the desert want anything less for yourself?

“An Army is totally ineffective without reliable support; troops need to be fed, clothed, housed, entertained, and medicated in the rear.”

Don’t they medicate in the arm these days? ;)

Mr Martin,
Nice diatribe but you fail to realize that while I am a scout in the reserves NOW, I was a “lightfighter” in the 25th ID in Operation Uphold Democracy and my platoon was the security element for a special forces B-team there.

“when you rouge it, doing so in Washington State is far different from doing so in the desert where the temperature can reach 110 degrees in the shade, and your armored vehicle gets so hot you have to wear gloves to touch it! Walk a mile young ignorant one before you speak. “

Don’t tell me that I am ignorant of the desert heat. I have spent the last five years training in the desert exclusively and just returned from California where the temp was 117 degrees. It is you who are the ignorant one as I am well aware of the conditions in the Navy, I work with retired Navy personnell every single day in this industry and have heard every Sea-Story known to man. I never said the Navy was an easy ride either but there are luxuries and accomodations that Marines and Army soldiers will never see. We don’t complain.
you are the one who is ignorant Mr. Martin so why don’t you just relax and realize that you can never relate to an Infantryman or Recon soldiers perspective because you have never been one. While I can’t relate to a Navy perspective because I have never been in the Navy, I just know thier jobs because I develop training for them.

Nice try bucko but give it a rest will you? I am prior active duty and I really don’t give a damn if you spent 100 years in the navy….it just isn’t the same thing, it is a hell of a lot more dangerous.
By the way “Captain Pretentious”, I would love to have better housing for the troops in Iraq, that is not the point, sometimes it takes awhile to build those facilities…so don’t think I am not for the idea…I just find it funny that the guy who wrote the article has no conception of what ground troops deal with daily, neither do you.

Pete—

If you say you have trained in the deserts of California I have no other choice but to believe the truth of it. Some quick thoughts…

1. What luxuries and accommodations does the Navy enjoy that the Army and Marines do not? Detail them if you would.

2. Your stated, “you (sic) are the one who is ignorant Mr. Martin so why don’t you just relax and realize that you can never relate to an Infantryman or Recon soldiers perspective because you have never been one.” By that reasoning, you have never served aboard a naval vessel, so you cannot possible relate to a Aviation Mechanic, Engineman, or Gunners Mate (Missiles), because you have never been one. You further stated that, “[w]hile I can’t relate to a Navy perspective because I have never been in the Navy, I just know thier jobs because I develop training for them.” I served at no less the three joint command during my time in the service, and wrote many training manuals and SOP’s for all branches. By your reasoning, does this mean I know their jobs? I have even been to the field with Army Infantryman in Turkey, Gito, and Germany, and to sea with many a MARG, does that mean that my perspective is broader than yours?

3. You stated, “[n]ice try bucko but give it a rest will you? I am prior active duty and I really don’t give a damn if you spent 100 years in the navy….it just isn’t the same thing, it is a hell of a lot more dangerous.” What exactly were you trying to say here?

4. You stated, ”I just find it funny that the guy who wrote the article has no conception of what ground troops deal with daily, neither do you.” Fact is, you know next to nothing about my experiences in the Navy; now who is being pretentious?

“1. What luxuries and accommodations does the Navy enjoy that the Army and Marines do not? Detail them if you would.”

1) HOT chow (food that is edible by human standards)
2) a bed to sleep on
3) freedom from being shot at (except for a very small minority of sailors and pilots in the last 30 yrs.)
4) freedom from combat fatigue
5) air conditioning
6) movie time onboard the ship
7) not having to march 25 miles with a 40 lb rucksack on your back
8) not having memories of dead bodies, the way blood smells in massive quantities(smells like copper or a handful of pennies) and having a personal view of it, in real time.
9) freedom from the human side of conflict and aggression in the third world, having been reduced to work schedules and just seeing it on the news in the belly of a ship. How many Navy personnel actually go ashore to see what it is like on the ground? (That isn’t thier job.)
10) freedom from having to actually see children starving and people who will kill for food or the fear that perhaps they want to kill you, personally
(10) A hot cup of coffee or the basic luxery of an ice cold can of Coke….or Mountain Dew or a prompt letter from home…..or better yet a hot shower more than once every two weeks. (in Afghanistan the marines went more than 40 days without one, which is common.) How many sailors go 40 days without a shower? How many go even a single day without having three hot meals?….etc, etc, etc…ad infinitum.

“4. You stated, ”I just find it funny that the guy who wrote the article has no conception of what ground troops deal with daily, neither do you.” Fact is, you know next to nothing about my experiences in the Navy; now who is being pretentious?”

Well Mr. Martin, I believe that I stated that very thing. I don’t know jack squat about how to be a sailor and I have no desire to. My point is that NOT having good living conditions for a ground soldier is the NORM. It sucks eggs, but it is the norm and soldiers volunteer for it. In fact we relish in the idea that noone else in the military wants to do what we do. It is the most dangerous, scary, thankless job in the military (especially Recon) and for a guy to write an article such as that one, criticising the living conditions of a grunt is truly telling of a lack of Guts and fortitude that every single grunt posesses. Sleeping in an 18 inch deep “hide position” (hole in the ground) ankle to ankle with 3 of your closest friends and spotting enemy positions to drop artillery on is what I call LIVING!

A true contrast in lifestyles that illustrates how out of touch the article writer is with the grunt on the ground. I like the perspectives from the embedded reporters this time around because it allows them to relate to the guys they are with. Just a thought, it seems to really have an impact on how this last war was seen by the public but apparently the coverage had no impact on the writer of the article you linked.

Pete—

Once again your statements are written from a platform of ignorance. I would address your response point-by-point, but what would be the, point.

Nice rebuttal Mr. Martin. Are you really this clueless?
Just give me a reason to trump anything you say.
I will, and we can continue this pissing contest all week but you have been trumped so deal with it…

afterthought,
When was the last time you were shot at? When was the last time you saw a dead body or the stench and pain of the people in the country you were assigned to from your ship?
When was the last time you knew what was happening on the ground in real time, and saw it with your own two eyes?
When have you ever been in harms way? Really… and prayed to god that you would not die at the hands of some punk kid with an AK-47 with a grudge?
Are you offended? I sure hope so.
You deserve to be.

Against my better judgement, I’m going to say something in this silly spat.

Both of you have experience in the military, though in different branches. Both of you have seen horrible conditions, and both of you might have things to envy about the other’s setup.

This argument started because Pete tried to dismiss Martin’s statements on the claim that Martin didn’t know how hard military life is. Pete’s claims have been shown to be hasty, and Pete and Martin should both stop sniping about their branches and discuss the merits of the original post.

So Pete, do you have another basis to disagree with the original post?

Harsh living conditions in a combat zone! Amazing!

The same ones who complain that the living conditions are poor and there are no permanent structures are the same ones who complain about the cost of the war. I do not want tax payer dollars spent on better living conditions. Doing so would only justify the military staying longer than it should (ie. Kosovo) or when we leave we would give them to the locals. No way, spend that money on bullets and bandages. Ask any grunt what he would rather have money spent on, accomidations or ammo and everyone on of them would say ammo!

As for the whinners who can’t stand to hear the services bicker-STAY Low and this Marine will protect you!

As for Army vs Navy, this is a tough one because the Marines are a department of the Navy. The Men’s Department. And I have been brainwashed to think I am more powerful than any army of one. So, the verdict is——-I have to side with my fellow grunt! Anyone who tries to tell me that the Navy or Airforce have it tough because they work long hours or have to ride on a boat for long periods of time, I am sure that it is tough for THEM.

SEMPER FI

I would say that Peter knows his stuff on the matter. He is a vet and a contractor.

Jake—

So, the rest of us Vets (U.S. Navy Ret.) know nothing at all? I work for the Veterans Administration, so what?

Its not the old navy anymore. None of us will ever know what you did, had to do or had to do without, none of us will ever have to go through what each of you honorable veterans went through. It is a NEW military in a sense. Then again some things will never change. all situations are different when one enters into the military.
But because of most people knowing what you both went through and all prior mates went through, it still hasnt stopped us from entering in and risking our lives for our country nomatter what it takes. No matter if it strips us down bare naked, or we lose an arm or a leg in wartime, we will not let the American people down even if we have to share a rack with 2 or 3 shipmates, or share a bathroom with 100 other men.
Seems like cake if by doing so is protecting other lives.
Now you want credit for the things youve done seen or been through.
Does Jesus walk around wanting credit for the miracles he performed, or lives he saved, or bitch about the horrible treatment he had to go through to save our lives?
No matter if you were on the front lines or behind the lines, you veterans are the ones who chose to go through what you went through in order to pave the way for the new military.
You have made it easier for us, and you have made it harder for us in some ways.
And i mean harder in that nomatter what we do today in protecting America, or what we go through, we will never amount to any of you.

Gentlemen,

All our services have merit and all our servicemen/women are honorable people who deserve our respect. Those who currently serve and those who served in the past are one in the same seperated by time only. I had a young Marine at Camp Pendleton explain to me “If your duece gear does not include armor and a shield, do not tell me about the old Corps”. He was right, we all serve for the betterment of the USA and the world. Please remember what the author of this article was trying to say, the contractors did not do their assigned duties. Does this mean all contractors are bad, not at all, in this case it would have been better to assign civil servants or active duty military types to take on this particular task.

Folks, just because us grunts are trained in the mud, work in the mud and live in the mud does not mean we do not enjoy a hot shower from time to time. Someone stated that the WWII guys did that and did not complain, very true and god bless everyone of them. But at the end of the war when we occupied Europe and Japan we had better accomodations and so should our kids that have won this war.

At the end of the day we old warriors only want what is best for our new younger warriors. We all want them to come home safe and sound to a greatful nation that welcomes them back with open arms. No more receptions like we received upon returning from Vietnam, no more ambiguous returns like the Korean War Veterans received. Let’s all agree to disagree about the original post and move on.

Semper Fi Devils Dogs and Good Night Chesty Puller wherever you are!

Bryan

THIS QUESTION IS OFF THE SUBJECT / “LUXURIES IN THE FIELD”… mY QUESTION CONCERNS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN REPORTERS AND THE FIGHTING SOLDIER. mORE SPECIFIC EMBEDED REPORTERS WHO ARE THERE RIGHT ALONG WITH THE FIGHTING INFANTRY MAN. wHAT ROLE DO YOU SEE THEM PLAYING AS FAR AS
a. REPORTING THE TRUTH
B. BONDING WITH SOLDIERS
C. PERSONAL AGENDA CONFLICTS
D. SAFTEY

ECT..