Cut the sinners a little slack

I have long said that we should draw bright lines between public and private lives and I would also generally advocate compartmentalizing. Most of the time we do not need - and do not have the capacity - to judge the whole person.

Some people give me a hard time because I associate with and maybe even like people who they think have done bad things. Of course, this is a key skill in my old diplomacy job (I joke, but I think it may be true, that I ate meals in Iraq with people who would have killed me or maybe even tried a few weeks before), but it works in most of life. I don't ask what people person cannot do or look for what I do not like, but rather for what they can do and what is good. This does not mean that I condone or ignore the bad things, but maybe in some circumstance it does not matter. I also admit the possibility that I may not understand the circumstances. Maybe what they did was not bad if you understand the background.

Denunciation was a method preferred by Nazis & communists to get rid of enemies. It has the patina of the "people's will" moral high ground. It appeals to small minded pissants (and there are lots) who can use the flaws in big people to pull them down, with the added appeal of being almost impossible to resist. The denounced are supposed be contrite and anybody who intervenes may be denounced for defending the indefensible.

It is useful to recall that everyone is a sinner and everybody has done something that they are (or should be) ashamed of having done. Perfection is not possible and seeking it not even desirable, especially because the landscape of morality is shifting, with behaviors once thought immoral now accepted and even celebrated, while those seen then as the highest good are today denounced.

I am not advocating that we suspend morality. On the contrary, we should work hard to become better people each day and encourage others. But maybe we can appreciate the limitations of what we should and can judge.

In this world we have two categories when judging most people or things. One category is small and intense. We call that "things that are my business." The other is large and diffuse, called "things that are not my business." Perhaps the old admonition to "mind your own business" applies more often today when social media and 24-hours news shows make us think that our business is bigger than it is. At least cut a little slack to the sinners.

Posted by Christine & John at November 24, 2017 11:18 AM
Comments
Comment #421914

Many think that “local” is so 18th century. I don’t believe it is. We all should be concerned with our local situation more than we are about our national situation for many reasons. Mostly, because on the local level we can, as individuals, make a difference.

I’ve never understood the appeal to putting the country’s faith in the hands of one person, our President. It is impossible for one person to solve the problems we expect him to solve. All this mindset does is make us more and more dependent on the federal government.

When we look to the East for our salvation we ignore the real solutions that are available to us at the local level. We don’t need a one size fits all solution from the federal government to solve the problem of poverty. Churches have provided relief for many more years longer and more efficiently than the federal government has with it’s welfare programs. An individual should be expected to prepare for unemployment instead of suddenly finding himself asking the government for help. Or, more to the point, expecting the government to help. Expecting someone to help themselves, as a church would, builds a much stronger person.

Our neighbors would recognize when a person truly needs help. Of course, at a local level we wouldn’t spend a fortune providing methods that hide the fact someone is getting assistance. The point being they shouldn’t expect to make a living off of the generosity of others. Food stamps are ancient, but the credit card, advertised to hide the stigma of receiving assistance, is counter productive to the goal of being self sufficient. Hiding the stigma isn’t a motivator, it’s a license to abuse. It’s a layer of overhead that is not needed to solve the problem.

People are sinners. People sin when they feel they won’t get caught. People sin when those around them won’t intercede. People sin when their sins are accommodated and defined incorrectly.

The federal government is not in the position to write laws that should be written by people who provide the funds and can look those in need in the eye. The laws should be written with the local budget as the primary concern. The federal government doesn’t do that. It spends it’s money based on statistics, favors, and purchases of power, not a need of the parent who’s house just burnt down, or a victim of an auto accident, or drug abuse.

If you don’t want people to sin, don’t expect them to sin. Don’t accommodate the sin. Don’t hide the sin or call it something else. Point out sins, punish those that sin if it warrants punishment. Coddling and accommodation from the federal government in the form of handouts and vote buying programs won’t solve the problem. We’ve already proven that with the many “War on..” federal programs currently in existence.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 24, 2017 2:33 PM
Comment #421918

Who among us remains the same person decade after decade? We all continually change in many ways, mentally, spiritually and physically.

The sins of my youth are past and not repeated with maturity. I believe forgiveness and rehabilitation is possible for all but the few.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 24, 2017 6:52 PM
Comment #421931

This is very interesting. We have been cutting the MMGW bunch of sinners too much slack in my opinion.

After 30 Years, Alarmists Are Still Predicting A Global Warming ‘Apocalypse’

“Ten years ago, the U.N. predicted we only had “as little as eight years left to avoid a dangerous global average rise of 2C or more.”

This failed prediction, however, has not stopped the U.N. and others from issuing more apocalyptic statements.

To celebrate nearly three decades of dire predictions, The Daily Caller News Foundation put together this list of some of the most severe doomsday prophecies made by scientists, activists and politicians:”

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 25, 2017 3:31 PM
Comment #421932

Sorry, here’s the link:

http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/25/after-30-years-alarmists-are-still-predicting-a-global-warming-apocalypse/

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 25, 2017 3:32 PM
Comment #421933

I don’t know why MMGW enthusiasts don’t concentrate on innovative ways to produce electricity or alternative types of transportation that would capture the heart of America like the hot rod or the motorcycle did.

This strategy of programming everyone to believe the only solution is sacrifice isn’t going to work. After 50 years of fear mongering and fake news they should realize it isn’t working. Perhaps when you consider the fact that Hillbilly still thinks she won the election explains it all.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 25, 2017 4:17 PM
Comment #421936
In this world we have two categories when judging most people or things. One category is small and intense. We call that “things that are my business.” The other is large and diffuse, called “things that are not my business.” Perhaps the old admonition to “mind your own business” applies more often today when social media and 24-hours news shows make us think that our business is bigger than it is. At least cut a little slack to the sinners.

This is really precious after your support of decades of investigations into the private business of the Clinton family. This essay is about 21 years too late.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 25, 2017 8:31 PM
Comment #421939

The original investigation of the Clinton’s (Whitewater) was never concluded. The focus was shifted to the affair and perjury. If you missed how that works, just watch while it happens again.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 26, 2017 8:52 AM
Comment #421943

The Whitewater investigation concluded 20 years ago.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 26, 2017 12:44 PM
Comment #421944

Warren

The Clintons are “my” business since they ran for the presidency. If you read my posts about Bill Clinton, you know that I never really much cared about his roguish behavior, except to the extent that I thought Hillary was dishonest in her ostensible defense of women’s rights. I think it was fair to use Hillary’s behavior toward women to undercut her political claims.

I have long been against the “whole person” concept. I draw a bright line between personal and political life and always have. As I wrote, I have eaten meals and enjoyed talking to people who I think would have tried to kill me in other circumstances. We were talking about something else.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 26, 2017 1:16 PM
Comment #421945

The Whitewater investigation morphed into the Lewinsky affair and perjury impeachment, conveniently leaving the trading scandal to slip off into oblivion.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 26, 2017 1:52 PM
Comment #421946

How many people were recently given amnesty for testimony that led nowhere? There were no crimes exposed due to the granting of amnesty for testimony? Isn’t that the same thing as a get out of jail free card?

Clintons walk because the media forgets about it.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 26, 2017 1:56 PM
Comment #421947


“Clintons walk because the media forgets about it.”

The Clintons walked because there wasn’t any evidence to convict them.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 26, 2017 7:10 PM
Comment #421958

“Perhaps the old admonition to “mind your own business” applies more often today when social media and 24-hours news shows make us think that our business is bigger than it is. At least cut a little slack to the sinners.”

In most cases today, there isn’t even a ‘sin’ being committed that one needs to be cut a little slack on. Especially when it comes to politics or on social media. He11, more often than not, the words and actions of the supposed ‘outraged’ are worse than what they are whining about.

Posted by: kctim at November 27, 2017 9:45 AM
Comment #421960

kctim

Outrage is overdone today and much of it is contrived.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 27, 2017 10:12 AM
Comment #421964
The Clintons walked because there wasn’t any evidence to convict them released to the public.

There, fixed it for ya.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 11:51 AM
Comment #421965

Contrived, overdone, and relentless - no better way to condition the behavior of the masses.

Posted by: kctim at November 27, 2017 11:57 AM
Comment #421966


Willie, please don’t put words in my mouth. There was no evidence.
Take your conspiracy theories somewhere else.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 27, 2017 11:58 AM
Comment #421967

No.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 12:21 PM
Comment #421969

The prosecutor concluded:

Bottom line: We can anticipate the following: 2% = Rule 29; 18% = Acquittal; 70% =Hung Jury; 10% = Conviction. Not enough in my view.

“These new Hillary Clinton prosecution memos are damning and dramatic,” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. “Hillary Clinton’s bank fraud, obstruction, lies, and other fraud began in Arkansas, continued in the White House and actually accelerated because the suicide of her friend Vincent Foster. The memos suggest that if she weren’t First Lady, she would have been successfully prosecuted in federal court. As we continue the court fight to get the actual draft indictment of Hillary Clinton we first uncovered in this investigation, Americans would do well to read these memos. If you want to understand the deplorable ethics and corruption at the Clinton State Department, these documents provide important background.”

Links to the complete set of documents are available here:
https://www.judicialwatch.org/bulletins/whitewater-documents-the-criminal-case-against-hillary-clinton/


Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 12:34 PM
Comment #421971

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/whitewater-scandal.asp

Starr alleged that Bill Clinton, during his term as governor of Arkansas, pressured Hale to make an illegal $300,000 federally-backed loan to Susan McDougal. The allegation lost much of its credibility after Hale was convicted of numerous felonies. But the Starr investigation went on to include the Lewinsky $ex scandal and several other controversies involving the Clintons. All three inquiries into the Whitewater land deal yielded insufficient evidence to charge the Clintons with criminal conduct. However, several of their associates were convicted as a result the investigations.


Starr went on to more captivating media gristle for the American consumer to chew on


.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 12:45 PM
Comment #421972


Hale changed his story and was determined to be an unreliable witness.

Go figger.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 27, 2017 1:07 PM
Comment #421973

What better reason to drop an investigation, right? I have a drug addict friend, perhaps I could get him to “change his mind”.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 2:08 PM
Comment #421974

Here’s a new wrinkle in the political world. Franken today is apologizing for abuses of women that he claims he doesn’t even remember.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 27, 2017 2:33 PM
Comment #421975

Your problem Willie is that you don’t really care if they’re guilty or innocent. You just want the Clintons prosecuted in the most public forum, and if possible, to be executed there as well.

You’ll never be satisfied with any verdict unless it’s a guilty verdict.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 27, 2017 2:36 PM
Comment #421979

For once I can say you’re right, Rocky Marks. However, I do not think they are innocent. It’s enough of a reason for the left, why don’t you accept it from me?

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 5:12 PM
Comment #421982
However, I do not think they are innocent. It’s enough of a reason for the left, why don’t you accept it from me?

It’s not what you think that matters. What matters is whether or not evidence exists to support the allegation.

And, I will point out that there is a very sharp difference between the outcome you seek regarding the Clintons (incarceration) and the outcome I seek regarding Roy Moore (Republicans choosing not to vote for him). The former requires a much higher standard of proof as we assume the accused is innocent when he or she enters the justice system. The ballot box contains none of the same due process protections. People are free to vote or not vote for any reason or whim they choose.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 27, 2017 6:00 PM
Comment #421983

One of the criteria in getting me to vote for Trump was to see people who abuse the system go to jail. I don’t expect it to happen in the first year, but I do expect to see some high level politicians and bureaucracy types going to jail.

The standard set by Democratics and the media will insure resignations from conservatives at the hint of impropriety, yet Hillbilly weathers scandal after scandal without the slightest damage being done to her career. None. It doesn’t pass the smell test.

Pardon me if I’ve grown cynical of Hillbilly’s facade for being as clean and pure as the wind driven snow, but no one could survive the scandals in Washington D.C. that they have without some kind of leverage.


Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 7:11 PM
Comment #421984


So what you’re saying Willie, is that they have to be guilty because there is no evidence of their guilt.

This is the logic that got Trump into the White House?

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 27, 2017 7:27 PM
Comment #421986

You’ll never know if there was evidence. You’ll never know if evidence was destroyed. You’ll never know if evidence was ignored. You’ll never know because Starr went off course and focused on the affair.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2017 11:27 PM
Comment #421994
Denunciation was a method preferred by Nazis & communists to get rid of enemies. It has the patina of the “people’s will” moral high ground.

And adopted by the social conservatives in the ‘80’s and used by them to this day. It’s called family values now. Used to be affairs weren’t in the realm of newsworthy, Until conservatives went after Clinton. Seems you guys are all of a sudden upset when it is your guy caught with the underage girls.

It appeals to small minded pissants (and there are lots) who can use the flaws in big people to pull them down, with the added appeal of being almost impossible to resist. The denounced are supposed be contrite and anybody who intervenes may be denounced for defending the indefensible.

And has since Repubs decided to fool the pissants into believing they were the moral highground.

The real issue today is the moral highground crowd has been exposed for what they are, in this case a man who molested underage girls every chance he got now wants to be governor.

So judging by the supposed conspiracies involving the Clintons it appears the Clintons are the smartest people in the world, who else could get away with everything up to and including running a child s*x ring out of a pizza shop, so why wouldn’t we want them to run the country? Oh wait is that the type of denunciation you were talking about? Or are you spinning for NAMBLA now C&J?

Posted by: j2t2 at November 28, 2017 1:23 AM
Comment #421995

I do need to give you some credit C&J for the intelligent way you have stated your case here on WB.

Why can’t other conservatives follow suit? Seems the Project Veritas propagandist have chosen to attack the messenger by having women bring false claims about Moore to the WaPo. Of course it didn’t work but jeez this type of stuff is so common on the right anymore it is laughable when any one of you guys try calling some truce when it is your watch. Reasonable people just don’t believe you.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 28, 2017 1:41 AM
Comment #422016

Wow Weary Fox News the ringleader of Clinton conspiracies! At some point you need to come to the realization you have been duped. These propagandist have re-directed your attention, your anger, your hatred of the Clinton’s so you wouldn’t question what they were doing. It worked brilliantly for them as you are still lost in space. Still trying to impeach Hillary are you? The good thing for you is you aren’t alone many misinformed voters have the same issue.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/11/impeach-hillary-clinton-kimmel-lie-witness-news

Posted by: j2t2 at November 28, 2017 10:43 AM
Comment #422017

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/11/weve_finally_found_something_politicians_and_reporters_have_considered_important_enough_to_keep_secret_for_decades.html

But no one seems to have ever leaked a story or reported a story about an over 20-year-old slush fund where politicians paid off people who complained – with taxpayers’ money. We don’t know how the fund was set up, where the appropriation came from, who approved each payoff and how the amount was decided, who drew up the documents that required secrecy, and whom the complaints were about.
Posted by: Weary Willie at November 28, 2017 10:51 AM
Comment #422020

I don’t live on the Worst Coast or in Los Angeles, j2t2.

You expect to convince me of something by using a joke as an argument? Do you live on the Worst Coast also?

Never mind the content of my link, just refer to a joke! I suppose sexual harassment is a joke because Franken is a comedienne, but serious when Moore is the target, yes?

Careful, based on your reply to my link, someone might think you’re being a hypocrite.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 28, 2017 11:32 AM
Comment #422021
I don’t live on the Worst Coast or in Los Angeles, j2t2.
So you don’t think these people are representative of many others around the country? That they are so different from every one else in this country?
You expect to convince me of something by using a joke as an argument? Do you live on the Worst Coast also?

Weary I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You need to realize where your hatred has led you. I can only point out certain things for your consideration.
I live in Colorado the past 9 years or so exclusively.

Never mind the content of my link, just refer to a joke!

The “joke” while sad shows just how many people hate the Clinton’s based upon the propaganda from the conservatives. Meanwhile Trump and the repub Congress is giving the country to the corporations.


Posted by: j2t2 at November 28, 2017 12:54 PM
Comment #422023

“shows just how many people hate the Clinton’s based upon the propaganda from the conservatives”

What a weird coincidence, most people hate President Trump, Republicans, Conservatives and everybody else on the right, based on propaganda from the liberals.

Posted by: kctim at November 28, 2017 1:47 PM
Comment #422024


“What a weird coincidence, most people hate President Trump, Republicans, Conservatives and everybody else on the right, based on propaganda from the liberals.”

Except he was an asshat long before his run for President.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 28, 2017 3:07 PM
Comment #422025

Being an asshat has absolutely nothing to do with their hate, Rocky. It’s all politically motivated hate, which why we have seen incitement, riots, destruction, and violence from the left. Actual hate, not that ‘disagreement = hate’ BS that the left likes to throw around.

Posted by: kctim at November 28, 2017 3:35 PM
Comment #422026

Yeah but… Tim, it’s the vocal few, just as it was the vocal few from the right during Obama.

Rocky


Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 28, 2017 4:16 PM
Comment #422027
Except he was an asshat long before his run for President. Rocky Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 28, 2017 3:07 PM

He was being cartooned as a whining baby in a diaper 30 years ago. I could never stand the guy and never understood why he got a TV show. Marc Burnett turned a broke fake billionaire into a mogul, based on this guy, Lord Alan Sugar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBy18DRzBu4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiEdPJOV34

This one was just caught by Crain’s inflating his income by a factor of more than 10 times, maybe as much as 20 times.

Now go back to your discussions with the memory loss patients.

Posted by: ohrealy at November 28, 2017 4:23 PM
Comment #422028

I could agree that it was the ‘vocal few’ with President Bush and President Obama, but we have reached new depths with President Trump.
In today’s democratic party, the ‘vocal few’ have at least matched the sane moderate Democrats in numbers and have taken control of the party.

Posted by: kctim at November 28, 2017 4:49 PM
Comment #422030

And you could seriously say that the lunatics haven’t taken over the asylum on the right?

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 28, 2017 5:33 PM
Comment #422032

Trump is the definition of “born with a silver spoon in his mouth”. He is a con artist unlike anything we have seen in public office in our lifetime. He isn’t hindered by any the truth or decency as we have seen this past year and a half.

He doesn’t need to explain beyond a fifth grade level as his followers like the vague generalities and brash insults that is his/their idea of intelligent discussion. Now this isn’t a big deal except he won the electoral college and is the president of the country, not some reality TV show star.

In today’s democratic party, the ‘vocal few’ have at least matched the sane moderate Democrats in numbers and have taken control of the party.

Umm kctim this logically deficient train of thought, while typical of the misinformed Trump voter, is wrong on many levels. First level- many of us on the left thought you guys couldn’t do any worse in the intellectually challenged department when GWB was president yet you did it. It was an amazing feat but you guys did it you elected Trump and he has been making GWB look like a brain his first year in office. If you are honest you would say that most Trump voters didn’t expect and almost zero sane moderate democrats ever thought it possible that Trump would win the electoral college vote. This has caused many sane democrats to come to the realization that the country is more screwed up than anyone thought possible.

Second level. You cannot phantom why people were protesting in the streets or as you say ” incitement, riots, destruction, and violence from the left.” You incorrectly assume it is some type of liberal propaganda and you couldn’t be more wrong. It is a patriotic love of country not politically motivated hate that drives the sane moderate democrats to protest the Trump administration. You would blame the MSM for telling the truth and call it propaganda but that doesn’t hold water.

Third level. We have sank to depths never before seen in many of our lifetimes. I know Trump tells you he has made America great again. But that is from the realty TV show star not the real world sane democrats live in. He is a laughing stock, Putins bi**h. He is the corpocracy and he is just now starting to do to his followers what those sane democrats have been protesting about.

Forth level. Trump and the conservatives that run the Congress are off and running with gifts for their benefactors, from cutting the banksters loose once again to giving big business their run of the internet to raising taxes on the middle class so the rich can tinkle on us once again while the country continues running up debt. The sane democrats know this isn’t making us great again and they knew it was a scam from the beginning.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 28, 2017 7:35 PM
Comment #422034

“This has caused many sane democrats to come to the realization that the country is more screwed up than anyone thought possible.”

Right j2t2, you are beginning to understand why Donald Trump was elected president. Liberal politics is suffocating the nation with social nonsense and economic suicide.

Continuing to pit one American against another to gain votes is a losing proposition for the Dems as are social programs that drain the treasury and multiply the debt.

Will the last Liberal alive turn out the lights when the government check bounces.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 28, 2017 8:00 PM
Comment #422037

Fifth level. The mistaken belief that it is only sane democrats and a vocal few that are protesting the Trump error. What you don’t seem to realize, kctim, is the number of republicans that have revolted or are starting to revolt against the Trump administration is growing.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 28, 2017 11:39 PM
Comment #422049

“And you could seriously say that the lunatics haven’t taken over the asylum on the right?”

The ‘vocal few’ Alex Jones types are still on the fringe, Rocky.

Posted by: kctim at November 29, 2017 9:25 AM
Comment #422050

J2,

The constant attacks on the intelligence of those who dare disagree with your politics has grown quite tiresome. It’s the equivalent of the ‘you’re stupid’ response found of schoolyard playgrounds, it does nothing to further the discussion and deserves no response.

Regarding the parts of your post that do warrant a response:

I also did not think Trump would win the election. I did however, state something to the effect that if Hillary wasn’t careful, her pushing the far-lefts social agenda, her indifference to skyrocketing insurance premiums, and her constant attacks on the 2nd Amendment, could lead to her snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Sane democrats know that their lives today are no different than they were under Obama. They aren’t out there ‘protesting’ what they think might happen or what freebie they might lose. They aren’t inciting riots or violence. They aren’t trying to silence those with differing views. They aren’t parroting ridiculous nazi conspiracy theories.

Questioning our electoral process and attacking our form of government is not “a patriotic love of country.”

I do not envy or even care about the wealth of others, so I find the left wing propaganda of ‘tax cuts for the rich’ to be quite meaningless.

As far as your baseless “Putins bi**h” hysteria, I say what I have said from the very beginning: IF wrongdoing is found, then the proper actions must be taken.

About the only thing that has changed for me though, is that I just might vote for Trump IF he decides to run in 2020. Watching you guys lose your sh*t, your sense of decency, and all aspects of common sense, is a blast.

Posted by: kctim at November 29, 2017 10:43 AM
Comment #422051

Sixth level. The silly notion that the “vocal few” on the right are small in numbers. I understand you rationalizing this tidbit of misinformation but the problem is what you consider the “vocal few”. You leave out many tea baggers and extremist right wingers by focusing only on the farest of the far right.

Alex Jones claims 5 million a day listen to his conspiracy theories. But he is only one extremist in a field of extremist TRC’s. He also includes Trump as one of his listeners!

Posted by: j2t2 at November 29, 2017 11:08 AM
Comment #422053

J2,
Tea Party members are nothing more than Conservatives that are willing to stand up publicly for conservative values and beliefs that have been around for a long, long time. Their refusal to give those up and move left does not make them extremists.

Actual so-called “extremist right wingers” have no influence and are irrelevant. They play in the woods in small groups and make meaningless boasts, but they bother no one.
They are not brought into the White House, they are not openly supported, nor are their actions excused and justified by party leaders.
The left can no longer make such claims.

The six levels of hyperbole you have posted so far would be better described as unwarranted paranoia.

Posted by: kctim at November 29, 2017 12:15 PM
Comment #422054
The constant attacks on the intelligence of those who dare disagree with your politics has grown quite tiresome.

Kctim. I am not attacking anyone. I am describing Trumps comments and his methods. Hard to believe but lets face it He talks at the 5th grade level. Compare him to any president including GWB and figure it out for yourself. His followers seem to like it, what does that say?


Questioning our electoral process and attacking our form of government is not “a patriotic love of country.”

Wow such deflection. Who is questioning process or form? It is Trump I question. Him and his people. Who brings their son in law and daughter into the WH to run things, without any experience at it? Trump has chosen to go with the establishment to get a corporate tax bill passed why aren’t you questioning that? I mean his claim to fame is anti-establishment.

They aren’t parroting ridiculous nazi conspiracy theories

But they protesting the neo-Nazis marching in the streets. You claim conspiracy yet we had white nationalist on the Trump staff for several months! Quit deflecting with this nonsense or I will question your intelligence for crying out loud kctim.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 29, 2017 12:31 PM
Comment #422055
Watching you guys lose your sh*t, your sense of decency, and all aspects of common sense, is a blast.

Party before country thinking in a nutshell

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 29, 2017 12:51 PM
Comment #422057

This morning we saw Trump re-tweet a series of anit-Muslim videos showing, among other things, a ‘Muslim migrant’ beating a guy on crutches. The video is a fake. It originated with Britain First, an extremist right wing group. Some of their leaders have already been arrested and convicted for inciting hatred based on religion. People in this country may have heard of the group after an assassin cried “Britain First!” before killing a female British MP during the EU referendum.

The re-tweet is intended to incite hatred. Nothing more, nothing less. The White House Spokesman has already said it does not matter if the videos are fakes…

Posted by: phx8 at November 29, 2017 1:14 PM
Comment #422058
Actual so-called “extremist right wingers” have no influence and are irrelevant. They play in the woods in small groups and make meaningless boasts, but they bother no one.

Yes we keep hearing this misinformation from you all the time kctim. It seems to me that you are trying to keep repeating the lie until we all believe it but I still haven’t drank that kool aid. Facts get it the way for me, but facts are so irrelevant for you it seems.

Look around the world kctim, far right fascism, neo-Nazis and nationalist are on the rise. Here in this country they are forcing themselves onto college campuses, attacking liberals enclaves and harassing minorities.

They have Trumps ear they helped him to get elected. You doin’t like that fact so you deny it but they are on the rise.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 29, 2017 1:38 PM
Comment #422061

“…far right fascism, neo-Nazis and nationalist are forcing themselves onto college campuses…”

Really j2t2. Please provide a factual link for us to read and ponder.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 29, 2017 3:01 PM
Comment #422062

J2,

People don’t care how you say something as long as they like what you are saying. When you guys drone on and on and on about Trump saying something non PC, you are the only ones who care.

“Wow such deflection.”

We were discussing the far left now being the majority in the Democratic Party. You attempted to write off the verifiable extremist actions I mentioned as not being politically motivated, and then you tried and failed to attribute them to sane moderate Democrats.
There was no deflection going on.

“It is Trump I question. Him and his people.”

To date, the only things I have seen you question are his manner of speaking, his intellect, his intentions, and his supposed ties to Putin and nazis. Oddly enough, all answered by politically motivated opinion.

“Trump has chosen to go with the establishment to get a corporate tax bill passed why aren’t you questioning that?”

Because ALL you guys seem to ever talk about on here is Russia-Russia-Russia, or scream racist and fascist whenever people disagree with you.

BTW: I did question the tax bill they are trying to pass. Not because I fall for the ‘tax cuts for the rich’ BS, but because it does not properly address our dire spending problem.
I will however, embrace any and every tax cut given.

“But they protesting the neo-Nazis marching in the streets.”

As you have already been told over and over, they have the right to march in the streets, they the right to do so in a safe manner, and they have been doing it for many decades.
The problem we face today didn’t come from people protesting their marches, it came from extremist groups like antifa and blm physically attacking them.

“You claim conspiracy yet we had white nationalist on the Trump staff for several months!”

Out them, J2.
Name the one’s on Trump’s staff who ‘espouse white supremacist or white separatist ideologies, often focusing on the alleged inferiority of nonwhites.’
Provide proof that Trump has stated or supports such things.

The nazi and fascist conspiracy is a sham, J2. Trump won by running on patriotism and good ole Americana, and now they are your enemy.
Quite sad.

Posted by: kctim at November 29, 2017 3:20 PM
Comment #422063

Here you go Royal-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests

and while you are reading it why not contribute…..

Posted by: j2t2 at November 29, 2017 3:33 PM
Comment #422064

“Facts get it the way for me, but facts are so irrelevant for you it seems.”

Then you should have no problem in naming a Republican leader with influence who is an actual extremist.

“Look around the world kctim, far right fascism, neo-Nazis and nationalist are on the rise.”

I don’t care about world politics, J2. I care about ours. And so far you have failed to provide proof that nazis or fascism are any kind of threat to our government and that they should be taken seriously.

“you deny it but they are on the rise.”

Can you offer something that proves your case? Well, something besides low attendance street marches that have been going on for decades, and a few pieces of paper telling people that it’s ‘ok to be white’?

Posted by: kctim at November 29, 2017 3:45 PM
Comment #422065

Kctim,

I just listened to an interview on the BBC with the husband of that slain MP. His statement was that Trump was a laughing stock elsewhere in the world.

Just to bring it up, because I’ve heard it more than once, our allies are scared sh*tless, and our enemies aren’t much afraid of us anymore.

Trump hasn’t drained the swamp, he’s added a hot tub and a diving board.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at November 29, 2017 4:33 PM
Comment #422066

j2t2 has got to be kidding me. The Berkeley protests were mostly about preventing Conservative speakers from exercising their free speech rights.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 29, 2017 4:37 PM
Comment #422067

Conservatives have been silent on the GOP tax bill. In the rosy scenario it will only increase the debt by $1.44 trillion. A figure of $2.5 trillion is more realistic. And that is if nothing goes wrong with the economy. Because if we learned anything at all from the Bush administration and their tax cuts, nothing ever goes wrong with the economy.

Tax cuts and spending increases- deficit spending- are a useful stimulus when the economy heads south. But that’s not what is happening here. That tool is being taken away for no good reason, other than the GOP wants to pay off its donors- the richest of the rich, and corporations. Incredibly, it will do this by raising taxes on the majority of the middle class. The minority of the middle class that see any cuts had better not get too attached to them, because those cuts are temporary, while the cuts for the rich and corporations are permanent.

It’s an absolutely atrocious bill that is being rushed through behind closed doors without discussion. Polling shows it is immensely unpopular, hence the rush to push it through; not to mention passing any legislation at all might become very difficult once the Mueller team starts indicting more people.

Posted by: phx8 at November 29, 2017 5:14 PM
Comment #422068

pdx8, the tax bill is constituent service for the Rabid Racist Radical Rapist party. They do these things to fellate their donors/owners, especially when they know it will never pass.

After glancing at an article in The National Review on NAFTA, I read the review of the Ron Chernow biography of Grant, by Lance Morrow. I found this:

“After 150 years, the country is still sorting out the interrupted business of Reconstruction and the terms and conditions applying to the citizenship of black people”

That is the right wing view. They’re in a double bind now since the plantations are becoming populated with non-citizens who may not even be counted as three fifths of a person depending what happens with the next census. Democracy has ended here in the US. Corporatist lapdogs have ended it.

///
In 1857, Frederick Douglass: Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

Posted by: ohrealy at November 29, 2017 5:33 PM
Comment #422070

Rocky,
He is entitled to his opinion, but I honestly couldn’t care less about it.

As far as ‘draining the swamp’, I don’t believe that I have ever commented much on it because I view it as nothing more than campaign rhetoric trying to capitalize on the voters dissatisfaction with Washington.

Posted by: kctim at November 29, 2017 5:49 PM
Comment #422071

“Conservatives have been silent on the GOP tax bill.”

Really phx8. Not me.

I have written that I approve of the nearly doubling of the standard deduction for working Americans. I approve of removing the property and income tax deduction for the wealthy in New York, California and other high tax states.

I approve of lowing corporate tax rates to allow us to be competitive in the world.

I approve of the revised third quarter GDP just announced of 3.3 percent.

I recall the Dems talking about GDP in the two percent range as the “new normal”. By lowering expectations, they believe Americans would accept dismal growth.

phx8 and his Liberal Pals and leaders in congress are horrified that President Trump has achieved significant economic growth despite their best efforts to stall the effort.

“The best average growth in a single calendar year under Obama is 2.6 percent in 2015, and never 3 percent or more. No president has experienced that since Hoover.”

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/31/donald-trump/trumps-claim-about-weak-economic-growth-under-obam/

“In 2003, George W. Bush’s tax cut boosted the economy, producing 4 percent growth for six straight quarters.

Compare this vigorous growth with President Obama’s eight years of stagnation. Obama’s economy lumbered along at around 2 percent because high taxes and over regulation discouraged companies from investing. Democrats still insist that 2 percent growth is the new normal. Nonsense. Roll back regulations and taxes, and the economy will surge.”

https://townhall.com/columnists/betsymccaughey/2017/10/04/dems-vs-the-facts-n2390298

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 29, 2017 6:16 PM
Comment #422072

RF,
Betsy McCaughey! Remember her? She came up with the charges that Obamacare would result in death panels! So that’s who you’re reading these days. She is SO well respected.

Not.

Did you approve of the two one year periods when the Obama administration generated more than 3% growth?

With corporate earnings driving the stock markets to new highs, why would anyone imagine US corporations are not competitive? I don’t get it.

Can anyone name anything- anything concrete, anything at all- that the Trump administration has done to improve the economic trends from the Obama administration?

So the Bush administration models a desirable economic outcome? Ummm. No thanks.

Posted by: phx8 at November 29, 2017 7:49 PM
Comment #422073

“…two one year periods when the Obama administration generated more than 3% growth?”

False phx8. I will ask you to prove it.

“…improve the economic trends from the Obama administration?”

I did, see above.

” I don’t get it.”

Of course you don’t phx8. You never do.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 29, 2017 7:58 PM
Comment #422074

RF,
“…two one year periods when the Obama administration generated more than 3% growth?”

False phx8. I will ask you to prove it.”

Read your first link.

Why did you spend all those years while Obama was president complaining about the deficit and the debt, and now you won’t say anything negative about intentionally increasing the debt by $1.44 trillion? (And that’s the number for an optimistic scenario). No one is arguing this tax bill will decrease deficits or the debt. No one. Various gimmicks are being inserted to keep that debt increase under $1.5 trillion, because realistically, it will be more like $2.5 trillion.

So what happened? Remember all that concern about the debt ceiling?

I think it is because conservative Trump supporters have no real principles. They might say they believe something about the debt or deficits or morality or the importance of character or whatever, but they’ll drop those principles in a country minute if told to do so by Limbaugh or Hannity or Trump or Moore…

And that is why conservatives and Christian Evangelicals and Trump supporters are falling and falling, and there just doesn’t seem to be any bottom.

Then again, there just might be a bottom after all, because Trump is treason.

Posted by: phx8 at November 29, 2017 9:55 PM
Comment #422075

I say “…far right fascism, neo-Nazis and nationalist are forcing themselves onto college campuses…”…You say conservatives, Royal, but hey it’s kctim you need to convince not me. Either way they are trying to force themselves onto college campuses and are meant with resistance when they do.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 29, 2017 11:37 PM
Comment #422088
I think it is because conservative Trump supporters have no real principles.

Bingo! Remember what kctim said? None of this is about making the country a better place to live. It is all done to upset the “Left”. It is beyond me why conservatives hold aucheck allugnimus for their fellow Americans that they allugnimus willing to destroy the country for the sake of a bref moment of schadenfreude.

Of course this is the inevitable result of eight years of bad faith opposition to Obama. None of our present problems would exist if Republicans had behaved like an ordinairy minority party in 2009-2010 and worked with Democrats to make Obama’s proposals bipartisan.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 30, 2017 8:38 AM
Comment #422089

The opposition is centered around a group of real billionaires who fund the right wing politicians even when they are out of office, at these so-called “think” tanks. They threaten them when they are in office. Besides well known names like Wilbur Ross, Carl Icahn, Steve Wynn, and the Koch brothers, there are the frakking Okies like Harold Hamm and the Deasons who have one very specific interest that made them rich. They blamed Obama for their losses which were due to over-production.

On the stink tanks:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-horn/alec-nonprofit-status_b_4412878.html

Mix in some “religious” crazies like Ralph Drollinger, and that’s where we are today:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/leader-of-trump-cabinet-bible-study-god-only-hears-prayers-of-righteous-christians/

Posted by: ohrealy at November 30, 2017 9:33 AM
Comment #422090

Yikes, I need to stop writing comments on my phone. Or at least, I need to proofread more. “Aucheck allugnimus” should be “such animus”.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 30, 2017 10:04 AM
Comment #422091

Warren, both sides think their policies are what’s best for the country. I has nothing to do with the left’s supposed misfortunes.

Posted by: kctim at November 30, 2017 10:07 AM
Comment #422093

“Either way they are trying to force themselves onto college campuses and are meant with resistance when they do.”

You need to read your own link, J2.

No “fascists” forced themselves onto college campuses.
Speakers who dare to say things that those far-left groups didn’t like were invited to speak.
Those speakers and those who wanted to listen were met with violence from those far-left groups.

FACT: If not for those far-left groups, a small group of people would have listened to the speeches without incident.

Posted by: kctim at November 30, 2017 10:32 AM
Comment #422094
Speakers who dare to say things that those far-left groups didn’t like were invited to speak.

So kctim, you seem to be saying that these people you claim have no influence yet were invited by Berkeley repubs to speak actually do have much more influence in right wing circles. They had the support of the president as well as his encouragement after all.

Yes I am aware of the false claims of free speech rights but IMHO the truth prevailed. Not by limiting the free speech rights of the provocateurs but by the exercise of the same free speech rights of the protestors. You would have us believe the college was responsible for the cancellation of the trolls appearance but it wasn’t. So the false “free speech” schtick the right wingers use is wrong.

I suggest they forced themselves onto the left wing enclave that is Berkeley CA, and you say they were invited. I say they invited themselves. Which is telling of how far to the right repubs have ventured since the days of Eisenhower.

It was a repub college group recently swelled in ranks by those emboldened by Trump and other Nationalist that “invited” the troll Milo to speak. So IMHO these far right extremist invited themselves. It wasn’t the college or the community that invited the troll to speak. It was an “in your face” attack by the extremist that backfired when the Berkeley community rallied against the troll.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 30, 2017 11:44 AM
Comment #422096

J2, your desperation to defend and justify violence has you ignoring facts and saying the silliest things.

The speakers are invited. Because we have freedom of speech here in the US, the college schedules them. People choose whether to attend or not. The speakers show up to speak and answer questions from those for and against.
Sometimes, those with a different view of the topic will show up outside and ‘protest’ with colorful signs and silly chants.
That is how freedom of speech works for all involved and nobody has had a problem with it.

What is happening today, and what you are strangely trying to defend, is the use of violence to silence those you disagree with. It is wrong, J2, and if was happening to those who’s opinion you agreed with, you would agree.

“I suggest they forced themselves onto the left wing enclave that is Berkeley CA, and you say they were invited. I say they invited themselves.”

You can’t invite yourself, J2, that would be trespassing and you would or should be arrested. They were given permission and had every right to be there.

Your laughable definition of extremism and extremist have no serious bearing on any of this.

Posted by: kctim at November 30, 2017 1:08 PM
Comment #422098

The speakers are invited by a group not the college kctim. The college schedules the use of their facilities. In the case of Milo the troll he was invited by the college repubs of Berkeley, a group not a college. This group was small and moderate Reagan idolizers until the rise of Trump and the nationalist populism he ran on. They invited Milo the troll to speak not the college. They are part of the alt right or as I call them the nationalist/neo-nazi/fascist extremist. The alt right invited one of there own to incite the people of Berkeley.

You want to act all innocent kctim, which is more desperate than anything I could say, but the fact is this was an attack by the far right on the people of Berkeley. This was much more than a speaker comes to speak yadayadayada BS you are spouting. This was the Skokie of this century.

This was a takeover of the college repubs of Berkeley group by the nationalist/fascist/neo-Nazi wing of the party. Their intent was to troll the college. Those that are antifascist recognized this and made this the Cable street of this century.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/28/bitter-feud-divides-berkeley-college-republicans-as-the-clubs-future-hangs-in-the-balance/

Posted by: j2t2 at November 30, 2017 1:56 PM
Comment #422099

“Remember all that concern about the debt ceiling?”

I sure do phx8. And, I am still concerned. Unlike you, I place little faith in CBO projections. Please link and CBO scoring that proved to be accurate. While you are at it, please link to a major tax cut that didn’t result in greater revenue to the treasury.

“None of our present problems would exist if Republicans had behaved like an ordinairy minority party in 2009-2010 and worked with Democrats to make Obama’s proposals bipartisan.
Posted by: Warren Porter at November 30, 2017 8:38 AM

Warren, your comment has been voted the most hilarious of the month.

Present Problems that might have been solved…

$20 Trillion deficit?
Budget deficits?
Poverty?
Illegal border crossing and immigrants?
North Korea?
Stagnant wages?
Small business bankruptcy?
Falling Labor Force Participation Rate?
Higher medical costs?
Higher education costs?
Higher food and energy costs?
Nato shunning its financial commitments?
Iranian funded terrorism?

and, much more.


Posted by: Royal Flush at November 30, 2017 3:02 PM
Comment #422100

“Aucheck allugnimus” should be “such animus”.
Posted by: Warren Porter at November 30, 2017 10:04 AM

LOL…I thought you were taking a Practical LATIN course Warren.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 30, 2017 3:06 PM
Comment #422101

“The speakers are invited by a group not the college”

As I already stated.

“The college schedules the use of their facilities.”

Again, as I already stated.

“In the case of Milo the troll he was invited by the college repubs of Berkeley, a group not a college.”

The college still has to give permission for the use of its facilities, J2. People with permission do not need force.
Your nazis forcing their way onto college campuses conspiracy theory was dishonest.

I have been using the Skokie ruling to prove you wrong all day, J2.

“Those that are antifascist recognized this and made this the Cable street of this century.”

As an American, I do not care about the fantasies of socialists and communists. If they want to romanticize destroying their own campus and cancelling a speech as some kind of great victory, more power to them. They are still anti-American scum.

As someone who loves history and who is very interested in seeing how this whole thing plays out though, I have to laugh at how they are being played.
On one hand, they are an anti America low level terrorist group and need to be taken seriously. But on the other hand, they are at ‘war’ with people on internet message boards that proclaim to be from Kekistan and who have a frog as their mascot. LOL

Posted by: kctim at November 30, 2017 4:17 PM
Comment #422102

We frequently hear the CBO forecasts of budget deficits should the tax plan being currently debated succeed.

CBO Budget Projections: After Two Years No Better Than Throwing Darts

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/07/18/cbo-budget-projections-after-two-years-no-better-than-throwing-darts/#162f4d3b67a2

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 30, 2017 4:25 PM
Comment #422106
Your nazis forcing their way onto college campuses conspiracy theory was dishonest.

No it wasn’t kctim. You do make it seem that way because you left out an important piece of information. The “alt right” invited the alt right, not the college, the college had it’s hands tied, and rightfully so. The troll used the freedom of speech to bring his hate into Berkeley. The people of Berkeley reacted to this insult accordingly, by using their free speech rights.

I have been using the Skokie ruling to prove you wrong all day, J2.

No you haven’t kctim. The fact is Milo and his crew are like the neo-Nazis that insisted upon marching through a Jewish enclave. They did it to incite anger, to promote the conservative agenda of fear and hatred.

They are still anti-American scum.

Only if you believe the fear and hatred message of Milo and the uber conservatives. Only if you believe that the left doesn’t have the same free speech rights as the far right has. IMHO it is much more American to resist the fear and hatred message than to spread the fear and hatred message. To use the right of free speech against those that abuse the right is as American as it gets. IMHO Milo the troll violated the right to free speech because they went into Berkeley with the intention to incite and to produce lawless action. Yet you give them support.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 1, 2017 9:34 AM
Comment #422107

J2,
Normally I would have already dismissed all this as you just refusing to admit that you are wrong. But since I value freedom of speech and you seem to honestly believe what you are writing, I want to continue.

It doesn’t matter who issued the invitation or that you disagreed with the content being presented, permission given by the college negates your claim that force was used to come onto campus.

I have already stated that I agree with you that people have the right to use their free speech rights to protest speech they do not agree with.
The issue here is that they used violence, not simple protest, to silence speech they disagree with.

Your opinion that the conservative agenda is one of fear and hatred is nothing but partisan hyperbole and is irrelevant to the discussion.

Your opinion that the intention of these speeches are to incite, is based on nothing more than your disagreement with the topic and who is giving the speech. Fact is, nothing in previous speeches encourages, promotes or even condones violent behavior.
Again J2, people telling you things that you don’t want to hear is not an excuse for violence.

“Yet you give them support.”

You can support the right to free speech without supporting the speech itself, J2.
I don’t want anti American scum antifa being met with violence when they preach their anti America BS.
I don’t want racist groups like blm and the klan being met with violence when they preach their racist BS.

That’s kind of how it works for those who actually support free speech, J2.

Posted by: kctim at December 1, 2017 11:00 AM
Comment #422108
You can support the right to free speech without supporting the speech itself, J2.

Kctim,I was suggesting you support Milo the troll and his provocateur actions. Not that you don’t support free speech rights, we all support fee speech rights. But even this right has it’s limitations. When it is meant to incite violence and lawless actions it has went beyond the right of free speech. Which is what Milo and his followers intended. You support this yet you insult the protestors that were incited to riot by the Provocateur Milo and his followers.

It doesn’t matter who issued the invitation or that you disagreed with the content being presented, permission given by the college negates your claim that force was used to come onto campus.

It does matter kctim. You give the provocateur to much leeway to incite IMHO. The troll Milo is an editor at the propaganda outlet Breitbart so he has a platform to spew his fear and hatred, and he does. He chose to bring his hatred into a place where it is not wanted. He did it by getting an invite from an alt right group. Not the college, which really had little choice as a state facility but to honor his free speech rights. To not have allowed the group to schedule the troll would have led to an actual free speech issue. So perhaps not force as in pushing his way through the doors but force as in leaving the college no choice but to allow him access to the liberal enclave he wanted to incite. Unfortunately the college is left with the bill for the damages caused by Milo.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 1, 2017 1:39 PM
Comment #422109

J2,
Honest question here: Can you even tell us what exactly Milo says that is so hateful and intentionally said to incite actual violence and should be limited?
Of do you think it should be limited simply for being critical of islam?

And contrary to what you guys want to believe, your little “liberal enclaves” do not have some special right to not be offended by what others say. If somebody says something that you don’t not like and you resort to violence, you alone are responsible for your actions.

Posted by: kctim at December 1, 2017 3:02 PM
Comment #422110

Honest answer: I think this is more of a where he wanted to spout his hatred. This was a shove it in your face attack by the nationalist/fascist/neo-Nazi’s that allowed the troll to hide behind the “free speech rights issue. He should be ashamed that he has to use this lie to earn his living. No one protested when he did this in the “alt right” community it was only after Trump emboldened the extremist that they decided it was time for a victory lap through Berkeley that the line was drawn.

As a propagandist for Breitbart he has left a trail of hateful thoughts and ideas kctim. To the point he had to resign from Breitbart so you can imagine how low he stooped to reach that level.

And you try to tell me the “alt right” have no influence!

Posted by: j2t2 at December 1, 2017 7:28 PM
Comment #422111

Why do you support violence, j2t2?

Posted by: Weary Willie at December 1, 2017 8:21 PM
Comment #422115

“we all support fee speech rights. But even this right has it’s limitations. When it is meant to incite violence and lawless actions it has went beyond the right of free speech.”

According to the left, any speech which they disagree with and find offensive they use to justify violence and claim it goes beyond the right of free speech. Wow, sounds pretty Orwellian to me. So our friends on the left don’t like what someone has to say, and a little butthurt justifies the curtailment of that right under the premise of “hate speech”. Don’t come to our community and tell us things we don’t want to hear. Get over it. The 1st amendment was specifically intended to protect political speech. Esepcially that which is unpopular. Grow the f@#k up !

Posted by: dbs at December 2, 2017 5:24 AM
Comment #422121

j2t2 must have reread his posts and decided he’s embarrassed himself with his, “violence is ok if we are incited”. It’s actually a pretty childish reaction as you said, dbs. Grow the f up! j2t2’s response sounds more like the 4 year old holding his breath to get what he wants. Remember how little kids roll on the ground and moan, claiming they’re going to die if they don’t get that new toy for Christmas? Yea, that’s what j2t2 sounds like.

Posted by: Weary Willie at December 2, 2017 12:33 PM
Comment #422122

Oh Brother, Weary and dbs you guys are special. Twisting and turning your whining into blame and hate. The real issue here should be the faux free speech rights issue the right wing is attempting to use to attack liberals and others. The simple fact is this, speech meant to incite violence and lawless actions is out of the realm of free speech. And make no mistake Milo and his ilk intends to incite violence and his record proves it. It isn’t about something I don’t like or feel butthurt about despite your claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

You are mad because the left wing has out maneuvered your team when it comes to the troll and his followers coming to Berkeley. Those student protestors faced an angry group of extremist determined to insult and degrade those “liberal social warriors” in Berkeley. The large majority of protestors were peaceful protestors. Just prior to the event a group of 150 or so showed up and did shoot off some firecrackers and such. Were they protestors or front men for Milo? Who knows.

What is clear is 1. it was property damage not physical violence and 2.the university acted to protect the students from a dangerous situation. The Milo followers had recently shot a protestor at another event, so we know they are armed, dangerous and willing to commit violence. Had the event continued who knows how many would have been killed by the gun toting snowflakes worked up into a frenzy by the con man Milo with his rhetoric.

I find it sad you guys suck up to the provocateur Milo and other extremist who preach hate and fear. You provide him with the $12,00.00 suits he wears to his events. You bring the conservative movement into the grasp of the extreme rightist that preach neo-Nazi/Fascism/Nationalist hate. I realize you have been duped by the free speech argument but instead of claiming I support violence why not use your heads. Who causes the violence, who drives cars into crowds at high speeds? Who shoots protestors?

The man has a long track record of free speech at many different locations he has no free speech issue, his message is disseminated through the media and the internet, Milo is heard around the world by anybody that wants to listen. He wants to shove his message up the a** of those he disagrees with. He wants to come into Berkeley and insult and degrade someone at the event as he usually does. Well they to have free speech rights and that is what they used, the “overwhelming counterbalance of more speech”. Nothing else, no limiting of the far rights free speech as you would have us believe.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 2, 2017 3:01 PM
Comment #422123

Have a great weekend everyone. I know it will be difficult for our Democrat Pals considering the tax bill passing in the senate.

But, take heart my friends, the economy is doing better every month, wages are increasing, jobs are plentiful, and all working class Americans are thrilled to be getting some needed tax relief.

God Bless America

Posted by: Royal Flush at December 2, 2017 7:52 PM
Comment #422136

“The simple fact is this, speech meant to incite violence and lawless actions is out of the realm of free speech.”

The simple fact, J2, is that you have not provided any example of him preaching actual extremism to purposely incite violence.

To be honest, I don’t really know much about the guy. I never heard of him until the media started using him for their right-wing = nazi BS propaganda they have been pushing.
A simple internet search shows that he is critical of things like gay marriage, women serving in battle, this new PC feminism that promotes ridiculous things like eye rape, and islam.
None of those positions are actually “extreme.”

The simple fact, J2, is that leftists are using violence and destruction to silence those who simply hold a different opinion.

Posted by: kctim at December 4, 2017 9:49 AM
Comment #422137

Ah yes kctim the innocent alt-right isn’t extreme according to you? The man is a self identified “alt right” troll. It is the leftist fighting back against nothing,just liberal excess that is the problem! Milo uses the media not the other way around. You started hearing of him probably right after the “alt right” got their guy Trump elected.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 4, 2017 12:59 PM
Comment #422138

In case you missed it…or don’t want any one to know…

Supreme Court allows President Trump’s travel ban to go fully into effect

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/04/supreme-court-allows-president-trumps-travel-ban-to-go-fully-into-effect.html

Posted by: Royal Flush at December 4, 2017 4:56 PM
Comment #422139

So J2, I take it that you are unable to provide examples of the guy promoting actual extremism with the intent to incite violence?

A simple search shows that he doesn’t really consider himself to be ‘alt-right.’ And apparently, he is very pro-Israel so I’m not so sure that endears him with the few wannabe fascists and nazi that you think are taking over the world.
The SPLC has labeled him as ‘alt-lite.’ LOL

Face it J2, the guy isn’t the boogeyman you were told he was, and those leftists didn’t want the guy speaking simply because they know he is critical of islam and radical feminism.

And, I didn’t hear of the guy any until you all thought he would make a good political tool and tried to make him relevant.

Posted by: kctim at December 4, 2017 6:00 PM
Comment #422167

Remember when being gay meant they were extraordinary citizens above reproach? Not so much now, eh j2t2?

You still haven’t answered my question. What did he say that incited violence? Why do you condone violence against speech when you won’/can’t identify said speech as inciting violence?

Posted by: Weary Willie at December 5, 2017 11:07 AM
Comment #422180

So J2, I take it that you are unable to provide examples of the guy promoting actual extremism with the intent to incite violence?

Going to Berkeley FFS man. I have said this before. What else do you need? If you don’t think he is “promoting actual extremism” I would venture a guess the problem is yours.

The SPLC has labeled him as ‘alt-lite.’ LOL

Perhaps he is, but alt-lite still seems to be hateful speech instead of intelligent political discussion. Are you suggesting his self aggrandizing be called hate-lite as well? Does this make him “the guy isn’t the boogeyman you were told he was”? Well no one said he was a boogeyman. He is a self said troll and a provocateur for the far right. Your argument is he isn’t as extreme as Richard Spencer but I say so what. He is part of a bigger movement and it is growing as he goes aroung spreading his hate.

Just because you didn’t hear of him as far as you recall kctim doesn’t mean much does it when you consider he didn’t really get going until Trump gained office. Yeah I know just a coincidence. It’s seems to be his business is riling up the MAGA crowd and those wanting to be seduced into the “alt-right” crowd.

Weary I don’t remember a time gays were beyond reproach. I remember when they were killed for being gay, that wasn’t that long ago. In fact it still happens.

Weary these people according to you and others here on WB were “rioting”. They were “rioting” because of Milo and his ilk. Both sides seem to be fighting and committing acts of violence. Would they have been there and done that were it not for Milo and his ilk. The provocateur provocteered. He must have been told to be insightful but decided to incite instead. The exact words that drive his allies to violence? You tell me. The exact words that drove the few protestors that destroyed property, Ask them. But be assured that had Milo stayed to home the protestors and the pro-Milo people would have as well.

You guys on the right fell for the “protecting free speech” line of BS that propagandist favoring the provocateur have used as their means to attract the movement followers to their cause.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 5, 2017 8:11 PM
Comment #422182
Ask them. You tell me.


Geesh! Did you and phx8 have the same debate coach?


Posted by: Weary Willie at December 5, 2017 11:59 PM
Comment #422192
Ask them. You tell me.

Weary I wasn’t there, You would have to ask those involved or it would be speculation. And lord knows you don’t want that. But you can go through the Milo thing and see what you think he could have said or done to incite both sides of the issue.


Geesh! Did you and phx8 have the same debate coach?

Weary I’m not debating the conservatives here on WB. I am expressing my opinion. I would feel like the one legged man in the a** kicking contest were I to debate you guys. I am burdened with truth and facts you guys have the luxury of ideology and alternative facts.

I mean just look at what you guys are doing with Milo. “He isn’t as bad as some of the others so what is the problem” type stuff. Then the whole “free speech” thing that just doesn’t hold water when scrutinized. We all know and respect that hate speech is protected speech. But we also know protesting against hate speech is also protected speech.

Milo and other conservative propagandist have spewed out so many myths and so much misinformation that it seems impossible to have decent conversation with you guys. I mean 45% of Trump supporters believe Christians are more abused than Muslims and Jews in this country. They also believe white people are the group most discriminated against in this country. With beliefs like that debate is …well…as George Carlin said ‘Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.’

Posted by: j2t2 at December 6, 2017 11:14 AM
Comment #422224

Is it hate speech or lies and misinformation? I don’t know. You won’t tell us. If you would quote his hate speech we could evaluate it, but you don’t. You expect us to go looking to prove what you say. That’s not how it works here, j2t2. If someone is inciting violence it should be easy for you to quote him. Why don’t you quote him?

Posted by: Weary Willie at December 7, 2017 10:25 AM
Comment #422228

Oh brother Weary watch the videos yourself instead of diverting the issue. The fact remains he incited both sides at Berkeley. I don’t quote him because you want to argue to what degree his speech is hate speech.

But like I have said several times, we all are for free speech rights and we all know hate speech is protected speech. Arguing to what degree his speech is hate speech is just a diversion. His intent is to provoke, to incite, to gain a following of misinformed, misguided Trump supporters. Those that believe Whites and Christians are the groups discriminated against.

We have been over this, so I am saying who cares, the fact is he incited peaceful protestors and his followers into action. He does it intentionally, he is a provocateur. He causes violence. Milo is no different that the Nazis who wanted to march on Skokie, a Jewish enclave. The intent is to incite, inflame, insult and degrade others in their neighborhoods and homes.

The others (including Bannon,Coulter,Pettibone and Southern) that jumped on the Berkeley bandwagon after Milo were also intent on starting violence. Their followers even came armed with weapons. So even if Milo is considered “alt-lite” his followers are the same as the “alt-right”.

If you want a real free speech issue to fight why not go after free speech zones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

Posted by: j2t2 at December 7, 2017 12:44 PM
Comment #422232

What are you talking about, j2t2? Are you hallucinating about Milo in your sleep? He didn’t speak at either event in Berkley! You’ve lost it, j2t2.

Posted by: Weary Willie at December 7, 2017 3:14 PM
Comment #422233

What are you talking about, j2t2? Are you hallucinating about Milo in your sleep? He didn’t speak at either event in Berkley! You’ve lost it, j2t2.

Posted by: Weary Willie at December 7, 2017 3:16 PM
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