Signaling Virtue or Being Virtuous

I despised NFL players for using the National Anthem for pushing what I still consider a misguided cause. But the linked article made me reconsider. I hate it when someone tells me that the goal is to call attention to a problem or raise consciousness. That is weak. It is a STEP, not goal. The player need be more than a barking dog that gets attention and just barks some more. The players have the nation’s attention. Time for some harder work. The difference between virtue signaling and having virtue is demonstrated by what you do after you get their attention.

"If the NFL players want to be realistic radicals, they should think about two questions. With whom do they need to connect to help address their concerns? And how can they break the problem of police-community conflict into specific issues that can be corrected?"

This is good advice. I dislike their means of protest, but they have some valid concerns. I have never met anybody in favor of racism or police brutality, at least not that they would admit. So protesting those things in general is the easy part. You have move beyond grievance. Protesting racism or police brutality is just a form of virtue signaling and useless unless followed by specific objectives for various parts of the problem. And it is most useful when you tell them what you are going to do about it and not just demands somebody else do something. These athletes are rich and influential. They have used their power to get attention. Now the next step is working it through.

We can expect that many will disagree on what to do and what are the causes of the problem.This is good. We think we know a lot of things, but find out that they may not be true when we run into disagreement. It is how we find solutions in a democracy. I worry when everybody seems to agree right away. Neither side should demonize the other. Dissent is patriotic. But it must be more than "a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Posted by Christine & John at October 10, 2017 6:45 PM
Comments
Comment #420568

I’ve said the same about MMGW. Even if we all suddenly become converts to the MMGW cause, so what? There’s no solution. We’d all have to start from zero. That would mean having the MMGW fanatics brow beat us with another issue that would most likely have the same results. All the fury of a problem with no solutions at all.

Posted by: Weary Willie at October 10, 2017 10:34 PM
Comment #420586

So previously you linked the NFL players to BLM, and they were the source of your anger for perceived actions they didn’t really do. The NFL players called attention to the BLM cause, by taking a knee during the national anthem, and the BLM project zero solutions to the problem of unnecessary police brutality.

That isn’t good enough for the right wingers? Hold the KKK/Fascist/Nazi protestors to the same standards instead of telling us the confederate flag is our heritage.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 11, 2017 7:37 PM
Comment #420588

It’s nice that you’ve discovered Saul Alinsky. He’s only been dead for 45 years. You’re on the road to conversion, like kctim. Break on through to the other side.

Alinsky influenced a lot of people, including someone who wrote television shows with a “liberal” message. Translated into normal english, that means socially conscious.

The “confederate flag” is a big fake. Their flag was actually the white flag of surrender.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 11, 2017 7:59 PM
Comment #420589

j2t2

As I mentioned above, I have not changed my mind about the nature of the protest. I am willing to give the protestors the benefit of the doubt and recognize that I do not have all the answers.

I am not a black-white thinker as you seem to be. There are nuances and not everyone who disagrees with me is a villain.

I have written elsewhere that I think I will take back the term “liberal”. It used to mean good things. Since progressives are now much less tolerant or nuanced than I am, I figure they won’t mind.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 11, 2017 8:00 PM
Comment #420592
The “confederate flag” is a big fake. Their flag was actually the white flag of surrender.

I have to give ohrealy credit for that one. It’s like BOINK! I could’ve had a V8!

Posted by: Weary Willie at October 11, 2017 8:36 PM
Comment #420625

You are being controlled. Comment #420589 exemplifies this:

Language: A Key Mechanism of Control

Newt Gingrich’s 1996 GOPAC memo

As you know, one of the key points in the GOPAC tapes is that “language matters.” In the video “We are a Majority,” Language is listed as a key mechanism of control used by a majority party, along with Agenda, Rules, Attitude and Learning. As the tapes have been used in training sessions across the country and mailed to candidates we have heard a plaintive plea: “I wish I could speak like Newt.”

That takes years of practice. But, we believe that you could have a significant impact on your campaign and the way you communicate if we help a little. That is why we have created this list of words and phrases.

This list is prepared so that you might have a directory of words to use in writing literature and mail, in preparing speeches, and in producing electronic media. The words and phrases are powerful. Read them. Memorize as many as possible. And remember that like any tool, these words will not help if they are not used.

While the list could be the size of the latest “College Edition” dictionary, we have attempted to keep it small enough to be readily useful yet large enough to be broadly functional. The list is divided into two sections: Optimistic Positive Governing words and phrases to help describe your vision for the future of your community (your message) and Contrasting words to help you clearly define the policies and record of your opponent and the Democratic party.

Please let us know if you have any other suggestions or additions. We would also like to know how you use the list. Call us at GOPAC or write with your suggestions and comments. We may include them in the next tape mailing so that others can benefit from your knowledge and experience.


Optimistic Positive Governing Words
Use the list below to help define your campaign and your vision of public service. These words can help give extra power to your message. In addition, these words help develop the positive side of the contrast you should create with your opponent, giving your community something to vote for!

active(ly)
activist
building
candid(ly)
care(ing)
challenge
change
children
choice/choose
citizen
commitment
common sense
compete
confident
conflict
control
courage
crusade
debate
dream
duty
eliminate good-time in prison
empower(ment)
fair
family
freedom
hard work
help
humane
incentive
initiative
lead
learn
legacy
liberty
light
listen
mobilize
moral
movement
opportunity
passionate
peace
pioneer
precious
premise
preserve
principle(d)
pristine
pro- (issue): flag, children, environment, reform
prosperity
protect
proud/pride
provide
reform
rights
share
strength
success
tough
truth
unique
vision
we/us/our

Contrasting Words
Often we search hard for words to define our opponents. Sometimes we are hesitant to use contrast. Remember that creating a difference helps you. These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party.

abuse of power
anti- (issue): flag, family, child, jobs
betray
bizarre
bosses
bureaucracy
cheat
coercion
“compassion” is not enough
collapse(ing)
consequences
corrupt
corruption
criminal rights
crisis
cynicism
decay
deeper
destroy
destructive
devour
disgrace
endanger
excuses
failure (fail)
greed
hypocrisy
ideological
impose
incompetent
insecure
insensitive
intolerant
liberal
lie
limit(s)
machine
mandate(s)
obsolete
pathetic
patronage
permissive attitude
pessimistic
punish (poor …)
radical
red tape
self-serving
selfish
sensationalists
shallow
shame
sick
spend(ing)
stagnation
status quo
steal
taxes
they/them
threaten
traitors
unionized
urgent (cy)
waste
welfare

Posted by: ohrealy at October 12, 2017 5:24 PM
Comment #420628

ORealy

When I take back the word liberal, I will redeem its virtue.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 12, 2017 6:55 PM
Comment #420631

I’m glad that Maxine Waters has influenced you to reclaim, but I fear you’ve been listening to the like of Dave Rubin and others, who think that libertarianism is classical liberalism. Of course, you’ve never heard of him, except you’ll probably be quoting him too.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 12, 2017 7:49 PM
Comment #420642
I am not a black-white thinker as you seem to be. There are nuances and not everyone who disagrees with me is a villain.

C&J, responding with a false premise! Where can you go but wrong with such nonsense. Next you will be wanting to steal the S off of superman and claim it as your own.

Perhaps we can both see beyond the black and white thinking that defines conservatism. I mean it’s not like only one of us can think beyond black and white, which BTW kinda says you are still in the black and white mode. After the direction conservatism has turned the past couple of decades we would all understand.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 13, 2017 4:43 PM
Comment #420658

j2t2

But black and white thinking does not define conservatism.

I believe that you can think beyond black and white, but you tend not to.

Finally re reclaiming the term - lots of people have talked about this going way back to before the 1930s, when liberal came to be identified in America with big government. And liberal in other places, as in most of Europe, still refers to smaller government.

I did not make up the concept nor did I claim to. I am just saying that the time is ripe.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 14, 2017 11:47 AM
Comment #420660

j2t2

Lots of people try to categorize me. They focus on something I write and then find some guy who said something similar. I looked up David Rubin. He is 41 years old. That means that I was graduating college about the time he was born and developing a life outlook. My political outlook is deeper.

I have a classical education, in that I really studied classics - Greek and Latin. I read the American thinkers and lots of others. Nothing I come up with is original; it is based on the all this. But it is not much based on only one.

My variable is that much of my outlook is ecological. I work directly with natural systems and have my whole life. My philosophical mentor here is Aldo Leopold. I do claim some derivation from him. He advised experiential, iterative learning and systems thinking, with complex feedback loops, so that there are no consistent heroes of villians. I apply this often to politics, since human systems are subsets of natural ones.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 14, 2017 12:01 PM
Comment #420668
Finally re reclaiming the term - lots of people have talked about this going way back to before the 1930s, when liberal came to be identified in America with big government. And liberal in other places, as in most of Europe, still refers to smaller government.

You say big government but what you mean is the social safety net…right C&J. Or do you also include a military so big it drains the economy, how many different police forces at the federal level, so many spying agencies, so much corporate welfare and such? Or just the typical conservative SSN, EPA, Education and such?

It seems to me no one really wants a big government or a small government they want a low cost government. Or more precisely they don’t want to pay for government to function. Because it isn’t constitutional they tell us although we know it is greed. They try to convince us the founding fathers didn’t want a “protect the weak from the strong” government when it applies to individuals. That the “commonwealth” meant only for the hereditary privileged.

Which gets us to who owns the term liberal. The difference between liberal and conservatives who think they own the term because times have changed is individualism. Conservatives think liberty applies only to them, liberals thinks it applies to each and every one of us, whether you group individuals by race religion s*x or whatever. Or simply liberty and equality. If you think liberal is liberty only you aren’t liberal,IMHO.

Most of the other tenets we share in common,say the rule of law, also have distinctions that we don’t agree on. Because liberals oppose hereditary privilege and many conservatives find it compatible with their interpretation of the rule of law we disagree. I think this is where you may be jumping ship on the conservative view of the world, now that Trump is president and civil rights are being trampled. Oh wait civil rights… positive rights don’t count unless you are liberal.

I know, I know your gonna tell me it is the free market and freedom of religion that we disagree upon.That liberals of today have abandoned the free market and religion. I say, The free market worked back when Adam Smith was postulating on the invisible hand. Since then we have industrialized and the game has changed. To build our great nation the free market had the backing off the government, think railroads and such. It is nonsense to suggest otherwise. To think the people of this country using their government to protect their environment interferes with the free market is …well… foolish conservative thinking C&J. It simply puts the common resources of the country ahead of the market and allows for a level playing field in the market place. We all want a market place not manipulated by a few for personal gain, but it takes rules as we have discovered over the years.

Religion and government don’t mix. Think Iran. Today we have the conservatives using the freedom of religion to discriminate against individuals based upon race, s*x or religious preference. Do you think this is what Locke had in mind, or Jefferson or other liberals during the enlightenment? I don’t and I was liberal when liberal wasn’t cool.

SO before you “take back” the term I would suggest it was never a term that conservatism as practiced ever owned, it is stealing you are contemplating. Now if it is conservatism as talked about and bumperstickered as Ohrealy demonstrated in his previous post, then… well… you still can’t have it. Just because conservatism hides behind liberal ideas to get it’s way doesn’t mean it was ever yours.


Posted by: j2t2 at October 15, 2017 12:39 PM
Comment #420681

Our centenarian author doesn’t want to be judged by association. Note the article at the top starts with the words “I despised”. Libertarianism is in many respects worse than conservatism, in that it attracts radicals of different stripes. Assange and Snowden could both be classified as libertarians, as well as that stoner who ran for POTUS a couple of times. Many pride themselves on ignorance and prejudice, but consider themselves free from concerns about others in particular, only mankind in general. They’re even worse on economics than the more regular right wingers who don’t understand maths, but those are not far behind now.

John or Jack and imaginary Christine, you might want to look up Bealtaine Cottage in Ireland. The lady there has planted hundreds of trees on her three acres in the past thirteen years. She’s a little concerned about Ophelia coming in tomorrow, and what the effect will be on her trees. The storm is still strong, although already past the Azores. By my reckoning, it is tracking more towards the Irish sea and will affect Cornwall and the southwest UK more than the west of Ireland, but we’ll find out overnight.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 15, 2017 7:34 PM
Comment #420697

J2t2

When I say big government, I mean government pushing too aggressively into roles where it is not most appropriate.

All good societies rest on three pillars: government, private firms and civil society. Each has roles it does best and sometimes that only it can do. Government has usurped some of the roles.

Then there is appropriate government. There are some tasks better performed at local levels and some that require centralized. IMO, we have centralized too much.

You mention EPA, SS and education. I believe strongly that we need an EPA to protect our environment. I disagree as to how it is sometimes done. MOST conservation is done on private land. Federal authorities have often cooperated effectively with private landowners and NGOs, such as TNC. Other time they have been less effective by pushing limits in command and control, requiring centralized power.

SS is another program I believe is needed. But we all know it need to be reformed to account for demographic changes since it was enacted in 1935 and reformed more than thirty years ago.

Education - I believe fervently in public education. I do not believe that it need be delivered by a large public bureaucracy nor do I believe it needs a central management. I would abolish the Dept of Education.

Re liberty - as a conservative, I believe liberty applies to all Americans.

As an American conservative, I oppose heredity privelge. I dislike any recognized group identity or privelge not subordinate to being American. Identity politics is a cancer.

Oheraly

Not sure about your point. I greatly respect that this woman has planted hundreds of trees on three acres. You did not specify how many hundreds.

I am in favor of planting trees and protecting soils, water and wildlife. We planted more than 21,000 trees in 2015 on our land. We will plant another 34,000 next year. Next year, we will also plant six acres of pollinator habitat to encourage bees & butterflies.

We have also used prescribed fires and planting to improve our land. This is a picture of a few acres that I particularly like. It represents the northern and western most edge of eastern longleaf pine restoration.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 15, 2017 11:54 PM
Comment #420698

Sorry cannot get the photo to work. You can click on it.

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAmyAAAAJGZjOTFhNDliLTFmNTEtNDkxMS05NDYyLWFhZDVjMDFiNTJlYg.jpg

Posted by: Christine & John at October 15, 2017 11:55 PM
Comment #420701
When I say big government, I mean government pushing too aggressively into roles where it is not most appropriate.

Well that is certainly vague enough C&J. Be specific, you want to claim the liberal mantle not the vague and ambiguous award…right?

All good societies rest on three pillars: government, private firms and civil society. Each has roles it does best and sometimes that only it can do. Government has usurped some of the roles.

Were this true wouldn’t you be able to be specific about the areas of government over reach? Your argument seems to rest on some perceived slights based upon “private firms” being a necessary pillar of society. I’m not sure this was what the founding fathers thought when they signed the Constitution. At least they didn’t specifically mention private firms in the Constitution, focusing on individuals instead or as they say “we the people”.

Then there is appropriate government. There are some tasks better performed at local levels and some that require centralized. IMO, we have centralized too much.

SO this really isn’t about the size of government as much as the structure of government. But be specific you conservatives seem to want to be vague about this big government thing and unless it benefits you.

Perhaps the difference between conservatives and liberals is the corruption factor we see in government today. Liberals seem to want to limit the ability of “private firms” to corrupt government while conservatives prefer the ability to use money for political gain if recent court decisions are any barometer.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 16, 2017 12:56 AM
Comment #420702

It looks like you’re planting a crop, but I’m glad to see the pollinator habitat. This website may be too much for your bandwidth:

https://bealtainecottage.com/

Video might be easier for you. From Collette O’Neill, A few words before Ophelia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGyHNYe0Y0&t=318s

Are you familiar with permaculture, or Ruth Stout?


Posted by: ohrealy at October 16, 2017 12:58 AM
Comment #420709

j2t2

Re structure of government - yes. It is about that. Decisions are best made at levels closest to the problem. Washington officials are mostly good people, but they cannot have access to all the detailed information, and certainly not in real time, that they need to make good choices.

A special feature of the USA has been its decentralization of political and economic decision making. Some of the political distribution was in the wisdom of our constitution. Decentralized politics helped lead to decentralized economics. Our emphasis on free markets plus the political decentralization plus the good luck of having putting our capital in a place not connected to much economic activity made our country especially successful. In most countries, the political capital is also the predominant economic center. America has several economic centers more important than Washington.

With the New Deal, we saw more decisions made in Washington and power had been accrediting to the center since then. this needs be resisted.

Since I assume you hate Trump, you may be happy to learn that I think Trump is one of the biggest offenders. He makes unilateral decisions and sticks his nose everywhere. Fortunately, lots of parts of his own government don’t really do what he asks. Consider how Sec of Defense Mattis just deferred Trumps “urgent” decision on transgender military.

Re government growing and weakening the other pillars. Government is creeping into other tasks.

A controversial example involves bakers who do not want to participate in gay weddings. The principle here is not gay rights versus religious rights, but merely the right of free association and maybe the right to be left alone. This transaction, or lack of one, should be left to the parties themselves. If a baker is willing to lose profits by not baking cakes, it is his foolishness. And there are alternatives for the customers. This should not be a case for government.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 9:23 AM
Comment #420710

Ohrealy

I am familiar with permaculture. Have studied it and applied some principles. Ruth Stout I had not heard of. I looked her up and she seems admirable.

I think you get too fixed on individuals. Ideas develop in a more general situation. Often there is a type of convergence, with lots of people coming up with similar solutions. Sometimes they are cross fertilizing, sometimes not.

When working with land, the boot-on-the-ground approach is required, since the particular circumstances always vary. You write the land ethic on the land and in your heart, knowing that you have not written the final chapter nor written in words that those w/o the same experience can easily understand.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 9:30 AM
Comment #420712

ohrealy

Re the crop - yes. Those are longleaf pine. They are now six years old. Some will be pulpwood in around fifteen years. Others will be saw timber sometime around 2062. I hope somebody makes a profit, since profit is the price of survival.

Most conservation is done on private land. We can - and many of us do - work with sustainable systems that improve the quality of soil, water, air and wildlife habitat. I give talks about this and I always emphasis that we should be proud that we can do all this and make a profit that contributes to our society.

I have little respect for activist who protest and scream but do not take the time to understand nor take the proactive steps. They live off the efforts of people like me, but do not know it.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 9:36 AM
Comment #420716

The federal government steps in when the local governments overstep their bounds, with corruption, violations of human rights, and other problems and violations of the constitution. I’ve said this many times here many years ago, but we have too many local governments. Here, we have villages, townships, and counties, in addition to the state governments, and innumerable other taxing authorities not accountable to anyone. Even corporations collect sales taxes which they are allowed to keep by agreement with some state and local governments.

A couple of Wisconsin stories:

Plaintiffs in a case known as Gill v. Whitford want the Supreme Court to rule that Wisconsin legislators violated the U.S. Constitution when they drew district boundaries that systematically diluted the electoral clout of their state’s Democratic voters. A lower court ordered Wisconsin to draw a fairer map after concluding that evidence and voting data submitted by the plaintiffs proved Republicans had configured districts designed to preserve their party’s legislative majority even when Democrats win a majority of the popular vote.


Rural areas in Wisconsin and across the nation have been losing population. Between 2000 and 2010, Wisconsin’s population grew by 6 percent, but more than a quarter of Wisconsin’s 72 counties lost population. More than half of all dairy workers in the U.S. are immigrants, according to a 2015 industry-sponsored study, and farms that employ immigrant labor produce 79 percent of the nation’s milk. Dairy farmers have become accustomed to cheap, flexible labor. Wisconsin farmers have said it is nearly impossible to convince Americans to take the jobs, which entail cleaning out stalls, covering night, weekend and holiday shifts, and working in every type of weather, including rain, snow, blazing heat and subzero temperatures.

Your land looks somewhat like a transplanted Wisconsin christmas tree farm. Did yo do anything to the soil before planting? I planted long needle pines on the east and west side of my home in FL, live oaks on the south, and crepe myrtle and dogwood on the north side. The crepe myrtles kept multiplying and multiplying, providing so much food for bees that I had to be careful what time of day I went out there.

In other stories, Weinstein’s brother and wife are coming out against him.

Wildfires are burning out of control in Spain and Portugal, as well as in our own west. 31 dead from the current fires in Portugal, 64 in June wildfires there. The fires in Spain are alleged to have been set intentionally> There are fewer deaths, but the fires are closer to towns that may have to be evacuated.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 16, 2017 11:54 AM
Comment #420720
I believe strongly that we need an EPA to protect our environment. I disagree as to how it is sometimes done.

So we keep the EPA. The issue with them is how they do it not should they do it.

SS is another program I believe is needed.
Social Security we seem to agree on. However what I wrote was SSN meaning social safety net. So what about the rest of the social safety net? Medicare/Medicaid? ADC and the other social services?
But we all know it need to be reformed to account for demographic changes since it was enacted in 1935 and reformed more than thirty years ago.

Perhaps some accounting functions like taking it out of the general budget perhaps? As far as privatizing it? IMHO the ages limits are right as they are. While life expectancy may have increased somewhat it is now retreating. Also by the time you are in your mid 60’s you most likely aren’t able to keep up with a younger crew on production work and retirement is the option for many that are in that boat. As job numbers decrease due to automation, off shoring and such it may be better for the country to keep the younger people in jobs and put us old guys out to pasture.

With the New Deal, we saw more decisions made in Washington and power had been accrediting to the center since then. this needs be resisted.

After three years of the country mired in depression once again the new deal saved the day. There was a reason for the government to act it proved successful and prevented another depression up until the provisions in the new deal that prevented the banksters from ruining the country were over turned by a new generation of conservatives. It was good governing yet to hear you guys it was a bad thing, I don’t get it.

Since I assume you hate Trump,

I don’t hate Trump C&J. I don’t hate anyone with any passion. I dislike Trumps personality and his politics. He scares me with his fascist leanings and his ability to fool so many good people so often. But I don’t hate him. His nepotism and corruption is wrong and I oppose him but I don’t hate him.

A controversial example involves bakers who do not want to participate in gay weddings……

We mostly agree on this C&J. The bakers chose to use religious liberty as their defense so they got what they deserved in the courts,IMHO. Free association is political and it says the government cannot prevent you from associating with someone. This is a private business transaction that should be handled at the state or local level but unfortunately we have to many states with legislatures that hide behind the religious liberty shield and interfere with the civil rights of people in their states. I myself do not want to go back to the days of “no colored allowed” signs that would result from the government not interfering in these issues.

So so far we have hit on two items that according to conservatives make government “big”, centralized education and civil rights of minorities. Is there more?

Posted by: j2t2 at October 16, 2017 12:30 PM
Comment #420724

Permaculture planting tested by Ophelia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ndd8JUfoJQ

Posted by: ohrealy at October 16, 2017 4:35 PM
Comment #420726

ohrealy

My pines would not make good Christmas trees. They do not have the close natural form. They are also fire dependent longleaf. We have to burn under them, which trims the lower branches. We burned that land in February. That encourages the diverse under story. The soil in that particular spot is called “Cecil sandy loam. It is not great farm soil, but the trees like it and the longleaf are thriving. There were once 93 million acres of longleaf ecology in the South. It is considered the most diverse non-tropical ecosystem in North America. We are now down to six million left. We are building some of that back. .

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 4:51 PM
Comment #420728

Ohrealy

“Here, we have villages, townships, and counties, in addition to the state governments, and innumerable other taxing authorities not accountable to anyone.” They are accountable to the local voters.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 6:05 PM
Comment #420729

j2t2

Re SS - I do not advocate privatizing it. Mainstream Republicans do not advocate privatizing it. What is a good idea is to supplement it with private arrangements, as has been done before and was part of the original idea. You were not meant to live on SS alone.

We also need to raise ages for full benefits. In 1933, when FDR proposed 65 as the retirement age, life expectancy was 63. If we had a similar full retirement age today, it would be something like 72. We need to figure out arrangements whereby people can retire in stages, maybe getting lower pay for less work. Problem today is that older workers tend to be among the more expensive and less productive, since they are often at the top of their scales. Many would be willing to work for less if less was asked of them.

Re the New Deal - FDR is one of my heroes. I respect the way he brought the country together and how he fought the war. But the New Deal did not solve the problem of the Great Depression. Generally, however, I do not oppose much of what was left of the New Deal by 1945. We went off the tracks in the 1960s with the Great Society.

Re the bakers - they had previously sold cakes to the gay couple. They did not oppose selling in general. They did not want to participate in the ceremony.

My general rule would be that you should sell a commodity good to any comers. So if you are selling cakes and they come in to buy a cake, sell it to them. This the bakers did. But you should have the right to decline specific business for any reason, good or bad. It just is not the business of government. Any baker who will not deal with gay weddings is giving up lots of business. That is punishment enough.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 6:16 PM
Comment #420731

Ohrealy

re the permaculture video - this is not the permaculture I am talking about. She has a nice garden.

Permaculture that I see developing involves using grasses and developing perennial of at least biennial strains of important crops such as wheat and rye and/or interplanting.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 16, 2017 6:26 PM
Comment #420756

“She has a nice garden”

You can still see what the land looked like before she went to work there on google earth at coordinates 54.031653 north -8.135298 longitude, in County Roscommon, 2 km south of Keadue.

Rye is an important crop? In what century? Rye is something we used to help seed lawns in sandy soil in FL. I hope your land burning is legal.

Posted by: ohealy at October 18, 2017 10:35 AM
Comment #420764
Generally, however, I do not oppose much of what was left of the New Deal by 1945. We went off the tracks in the 1960s with the Great Society.

The Great Society, so medicaid and medicare are some more culprits that make government big according to conservatives.

Here is a link to a list of great society programs still working today C&J. Which specific ones do you object to?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2014/05/17/the-great-society-at-50/?utm_term=.2d4f90751253

Why is it the Federal government has 36 police for every 100,000 people in the country, not including state and local police just the federal government, yet that isn’t a reason for concern by those opposed to “big government”? Instead they choose medicare/medicaid, civil rights, NPR ,GI Bill, and education for the poor and disabled? Or is it the food and drug act? The voting rights act? Food Stamps?

Regarding the baker it seems to me the problem was the wrong argument that got them in trouble. Using religious liberty as a defense needed to be shot down it was wrong and it had nothing to do with religious liberty. It was discrimination. To think the baker was participating in a wedding ceremony against his religious beliefs because he provided a cake for a reception after the wedding is..well… it is… nonsensical.


Posted by: j2t2 at October 18, 2017 7:23 PM
Comment #420766

ohealy

I am certified by the Commonwealth of Virginia as a burn boss and I work with Virginia Forestry and NRCS.

Burning is a big part of the ecology. We excluded it at high cost, ecologically and economically.

j2t2
I can think of good parts of the 1960s legislation and ideas. What I dislike was the general overreach and the definition of victim groups.

FDR did not believe in welfare. His programs required that recipients do something. The CCC and WPA put men to work. It did not subsidize them in their sloth and lethargy.

A problem with any organization, public or private, is that it accretes power and mission. Private firms cannot do this too long, since they run out of money. Bankruptcy and failure cleanse the private sector. Government can compound its mistakes by throwing more money.

Re the baker - I don’t care if it was prejudice. I made the distinction between selling a commodity product, which the bakers did not refuse to do, and contracting. You should be able to turn down business for any reason, good or bad. You are punished by losing the profit you would have made.

The civil right revolution used government coercion to overthrow government coercion. This was a necessary tool, but an unfortunate one and it is now out of hand.

I was watching an old Seinfeld episode the other day. In it, Kramer and Jerry get banned from the fruit store because the owner just doesn’t like them. This is okay to do, no matter the reason.

Posted by: Christine & John at October 18, 2017 9:55 PM
Comment #420782
Government can compound its mistakes by throwing more money.

The government can also solve its own financial problems, only to have those problems compounded over and over again by parties who believe in deficit spending instead of taxation, like NixonReaganWBush at the national level.

We have an interesting example here with the Cook County SBT, sweetened beverage tax. Soft drink manufacturers spent vast sums, first trying to prevent the tax, then trying to get it repealed. It was repealed effective in December after being in effect for only 4 months.

I was surprised when the tax first came into effect, not that I was being taxed, but that I was drinking sweetened beverages that didn’t need to be sweetened. Companies actually came out with versions of their drinks that weren’t sweetened, which I was glad to see and willing to buy. Grocery stores found suppliers of unsweetened beverages. Everything seemed to be heading in the right direction, but not for corporations defending the right of poor people to get diabetes. They need to push the same garbage, even worse than what our parents wouldn’t allow us to drink when I was a kid.

This is a public health concern, which like cigarettes, was being addressed through taxation and encouraging behavior changes, only to be met with monopolistic corporate resistance, when those corporations could actually help solve the problem by changing their products.

the definition of victim groups
I’m guessing you know the story of the Pentagon being built with all those extra bathrooms because it was in Virginia. Was anything out of hand back then? Posted by: ohrealy at October 19, 2017 4:22 PM
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