Ivanka Got It Right Her Father Got It Wrong

How far should you go to defend the First Amendment? Is it limitless what should be permitted under Free Speech? This is a hard question to answer because it puts one at the watershed, between two slopes that lead radically away from each other. On one side, the antifa pushes you towards denouncing a large part of America’s history. Should every statue anywhere in America that is associated in any way with the Confederacy be torn down? Let’s have a debate on this issue shall we? Not really, the statutes are coming down already. More will fall. Will any governor or mayor risk putting police forces on maximum alert to prevent any groups from downing statues? Action is moving faster than the First Amendment and defining a new reality.

On the other side, the alt-right nazis push you towards defending their actions - not merely their words - as a vital act necessary to ensure that thought in America remains free. So that a tiny radical fringe can soak up the media attention and gladly and deliberately let conservatives be tainted by their poisonous, pathetic extremism.

Two warring tribes. Choose sides.

But the thing is, you can clearly and loudly and unequivocally denounce the racist vile white supremacists while still avoiding a near future that, in the what seems to be over the top alarmism by The Federalist's Ben Domenech, when he stated:

This war will end badly, no matter how it plays out. And the way this story ends is in demolishing Monticello brick by brick.

Would a tearing down of all or most Confederate-related statues lead to that? Because this is way beyond metaphorical, what Domenech is suggesting: a version of the demolishing of the mosque at Ayodhya, in India by Hindu fanatics. It was a clash of religions hung over with centuries of symbolic and all too literal conflict between Hindus and Muslims in India, until it exploded once again into warfare in late 1992. The deaths in acts of sectarian violence in India since then have been substantial. But not as bad as those in the late 40's.

Yes. But that's India, not America. Tearing down Confederate statues does not necessarily or even likely mean that National Guards will have to guard Jefferson's historic home. Yes, a clutch of antifa thugs would love to set fire to that monument to architecture and philosophy if they could. But they won't, and America won't let them.

You can denounce the racist supremacists at Charlottesville without fearing that you are unleashing a Stalinist revisionism across America. Yes, there is left-wing revisionism going on constantly now for at least a generation. Yes, the media covers left-wing violence with a cautious neutrality and a focus on the conditions that supposedly are responsible for the violence. Marxist dialectics are very useful for justifying violence and totalitarianism.

It doesn't matter. You denounce the racists clearly and unequivocally. Then you give the reasons why America tolerates most speech (we'll leave aside the fact that the Supreme Court has broadened what is speech for decades now - is kiddie porn speech? For example ...) while condemning racism and violence.

But this wasn't done, or was done late and half-heartedly and mostly by advisors. And then walked back on Tuesday.

President Trump has once again flubbed - or intentionally avoided - an opportunity to do what Reagan or both Bush's and what Bill Clinton would have done. And his latest comments on Tuesday at Trump tower are either stupid or complicit. Ivanka got it right. Her father got it wrong, badly so. Monticello will survive, but this will get worse for at least a while.

Posted by Keeley at August 15, 2017 9:03 PM
Comments
Comment #419469

In my opinion Keeley, the only thing that President Trump “flubbed” was not having mastered political-speak. He didn’t run as a politician, doesn’t act like a politician, and doesn’t speak like one.

He mastered common-sense and what appeals to middle class working America. That’s enough for now.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 16, 2017 4:53 PM
Comment #419488

It doesn’t matter what Trump said or didn’t say; the left was prepared for the attack no matter.

The left bristles at the very idea of being compared to the Nazis. But let’s look at history; what was it that the Nazis did when they came to power. Didn’t they try to stamp out any history they disagreed with? What did Lenin and Stalin do when communism came to power; didn’t they try to stamp out history they disagreed with? We can further back than that. To the burning of the library at Alexandria. In all these cases weren’t books brought out into the streets and piled up and burned? I’ve seen the footage of films as the Hitler youth and SS troops emptied College libraries and home libraries to pile the books and burn them. If you think this is about statues, you are mistaken. It’s about rewriting history. The statues are today, but the left will not be happy until every trace of what America was founded upon and what has made her great is destroyed. The constitution, the federalist papers, the Bill of Rights, even historical books about the founding fathers must be burned. What’s next, the Bible. These people on the left are like a disease. They cannot be voted out, because the disease is spread through the fake media every day. The idea of what is proper or improper to say means nothing. There are a few verses in Proverbs 30 that fit the desires of the left,

“11There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. 12There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. 13There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. 14There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men. 15The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough: 16The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.”

The socialist on the left is never satisfied. They cry more, more. They are a cancer on America. A disease that will lead to the destruction of our republic.

Posted by: Blaine at August 16, 2017 10:17 PM
Comment #419500

Non-existent Keeley, Monticello is safe. Jefferson has many descendants who will see to that. He wanted to be remembered for the Declaration of Independence, The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and for founding The University of Virginia, not for being President.

Posted by: ohrealy at August 17, 2017 1:33 AM
Comment #419511

So did anybody from this forum have personal video from their time in Charlottesville?

Posted by: henryjones000 at August 17, 2017 7:08 AM
Comment #419512

Ph, j2, and ohr, but they won’t show it.

Posted by: Blaine at August 17, 2017 11:11 AM
Comment #419533

The lefts attempt at forcible culture cleansing will not end well for the country.

Posted by: kctim at August 18, 2017 11:44 AM
Comment #419534

You mean like building a wall, mass deportations, restricting immigration to those who speak English, supporting a president who was a Birther and is still a racist and bigot? Is that the forcible culture cleansing you had in mind?

Maybe you are just worried about all those criminal Mexican racists crossing the border.

A few more marches by the Klan, Neo-Nazis, and white nationalists should do the trick, punctuated by the occasional ISIS style attacks by the alt right, or maybe just going full McVeigh and blowing up a building or two.

White male grievances have no statistical basis in reality, no economic basis, no cultural basis. But go ahead and encourage people to chant “Jews will not replace us” and see how the cleansing goes.

Posted by: phx8 at August 18, 2017 12:09 PM
Comment #419535

Sigh.
Border security is not a “white male grievance.”
Legal immigration is not a “white male grievance.”
Controlling immigration so that it is most beneficial to our country is not a “white male grievance.”
They are all things we did up to just around a few decades ago.
All other industrialized nations take such precautions.

Marches by the Klan, Neo-Nazis, and white nationalists will have the same effect as they have in the past: NONE.
You see, despite the rather sad, pathetic and intentionally divisive attempts to equate everything non-progressive to those idiots, the tactic is not working.

As long as you have left wing nuts trying to assassinate right wing Congressmen and women, murdering their Trump supporting neighbors, and black nationalists murdering policemen in cold blood, there is no merit to your supposed concern about political violence.

Neither myself or the President have ever even tried to “encourage people to chant “Jews will not replace us.” That is a dishonest and racist fantasy floating around in your head.

Posted by: kctim at August 18, 2017 12:56 PM
Comment #419537

Are you encouraging this guy?

https://streamable.com/qblpg

Posted by: kctim at August 18, 2017 1:33 PM
Comment #419538

That looks suspicious. I don’t recognize that site so I will not click on it.

“He should address the American people, acknowledge that he was wrong, apologize. State forcefully and unequivocally that racists are 100% to blame for the murder and violence in Charlottesville.”

Trump “caused racists to rejoice, minorities to weep, and the vast heart of America to mourn.”

“Our allies around the world are stunned and our enemies celebrate; America’s ability to help secure a peaceful and prosperous world is diminished.”
Mitt Romney, 8/17/2017

Posted by: phx8 at August 18, 2017 1:43 PM
Comment #419539

What does any of that have to do with the culture cleansing comment that you responded to?

It is a fact that the President called for ALL Americans to unite and condemned hatred and bigotry.
It is a fact that left-wing extremists engaged the idiots. No left-wing extremists, no violence. No media trying desperately to create a Republican = racist narrative in hopes of influencing the next election, and the nobody would even have known that a few idiots held a march.

The fact that you and others want everybody to ignore the major role of left-wing extremists in all of this, means nothing.

Posted by: kctim at August 18, 2017 2:56 PM
Comment #419548
Marches by the Klan, Neo-Nazis, and white nationalists will have the same effect as they have in the past: NONE.

85-95 years ago, there were some marches of this sort in Germany. If I remember my history correctly, those rallies did have a significant impact on the world.

Posted by: Warren Porter at August 19, 2017 8:22 AM
Comment #419549
Border security is not a “white male grievance.” Legal immigration is not a “white male grievance.” Controlling immigration so that it is most beneficial to our country is not a “white male grievance.” They are all things we did up to just around a few decades ago. All other industrialized nations take such precautions.

Generally, border security isn’t a white male grievance. However, recent events suggest to me that an increasing number of Americans support border security primarily because they see it as a means to preserve white people’s status in this country.

Posted by: Warren Porter at August 19, 2017 8:57 AM
Comment #419553

Warren, isn’t “border security” a good thing despite the reason? Is securing our border merely a political position?

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 19, 2017 2:05 PM
Comment #419554

RF,

Don’t take the phrase out of context. Kctim very clearly meant “the border security policy favored by Donald Trump” and not an even more general reference to any old border security policy.

Posted by: Warren Porter at August 19, 2017 2:36 PM
Comment #419555

Well, now I am confused Warren. What makes the president’s border security “a means to preserve white people’s status in this country.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 19, 2017 2:42 PM
Comment #419556

The President’s restrictionist immigration policies have the effect of reducing the number of nonwhite Americans.

Posted by: Warren Porter at August 19, 2017 2:47 PM
Comment #419557

Warped are you saying non white people don’t know how to speak English?

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at August 19, 2017 2:50 PM
Comment #419558

Well Warren, I am not going to continue this thread.

I would like to say that Legal Immigration is not, and should not, be about race, religion, or ethnicity.

We, as a nation, have the right and obligation to invite only those who truly wish to become Americans, to be productive, to adopt our culture, laws, language and love of country. It is a privilege to be invited to become a citizen of the United States of America.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 19, 2017 2:55 PM
Comment #419559

The intent behind the phrase “border security” for Trump supporters is to keep out Mexicans and other minorities. Trump accused them of being criminals and rapists. He trotted family members of people killed by illegal immigrants to demonize the immigrants and whip up hatred, when crime among illegal immigrants occurs at the same rate or even less often than the population at large. The idea of building a wall and making Mexico pay for it is fundamentally xenophobic and hateful. Not one congressman from the districts bordering Mexico supported the Trump wall. Not one.

Conservatives willingly overlooked Trump’s racism, bigotry, misogeny, and xenophobia and voted for him anyway. Now they own Trump and all the terrible baggage that comes with that disgraceful human being.

“Good people” do not march with Neo-Nazis, Klan members, and white nationalists. If they do, they are not good people. They get lumped in with white nationalists, and deservedly so. And that is what happened to conservatism.

Posted by: phx8 at August 19, 2017 2:56 PM
Comment #419560

phx8, I am a Trump supporter and what you wrote is not my intent for border security. See my intent above.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 19, 2017 3:16 PM
Comment #419561

phx8, It is to keep unproductive A**HOLES out of here. If you come here to be a leech then we don’t want you.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at August 19, 2017 3:22 PM
Comment #419564

RF
There is no threat to our security from legal or illegal immigrants, no more than there is from the resident population. It makes sense to screen for felons or likely terrorists. The current system already successfully does that.

KAP,
Legal and illegal immigrants are productive- actually, more productive than residents. Immigrants are not eligible for benefits such as Medicaid until they have been here five years.

First generation Americans tend to be the most economically successful Americans. They make up a disproportionate number of CEO’s for large companies.

Immigrants come here seeking economic opportunity. They also come here seeking freedom, liberty, and to escape war and oppression.

They used to come here, and other foreigners to visit, in part because the United States had a reputation for tolerance. Trump trashed that. He ruined America’s reputation.

Posted by: phx8 at August 19, 2017 4:44 PM
Comment #419565

“There is no threat to our security from legal or illegal immigrants…”

phx8, did what I wrote about my intent for immigrants say anything about “threat” or “security”?

Let me reprint what I wrote; “We, as a nation, have the right and obligation to invite only those who truly wish to become Americans, to be productive, to adopt our culture, laws, language and love of country. It is a privilege to be invited to become a citizen of the United States of America.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 19, 2017 4:55 PM
Comment #419566

I wanted to find evidence of anarchist thinking and found it here.

https://itsgoingdown.org/phoenix-az-call-anarchist-anti-fascist-anti-colonial-presence-presidents/

Here’s the message to fellow anarchists on protesting President Trump’s planned rally on Tuesday, August 22 in Phoenix.

“We will converge, in the spirit of solidarity and hostility to the current order, and as a physical body ready to act in self-defense and mutual protection of each other from cops, fascists, and liberal/radical “peace police.”

Wow…what fun-loving peaceful folks.

“As anarchists we oppose all tyranny of majorities imposing their will on minorities and that includes decrees from dictators or through the democratic means of the ballot box.”

Show of hands please. Who agrees with this statement in bold?

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 19, 2017 5:44 PM
Comment #419567

Phx8, I have no beef with legal immigrants as long as they are productive. Now the illegal ones are a different story even though they may be productive they are still in the country ILLEGALLY.

Posted by: Richard Kapitan at August 19, 2017 5:45 PM
Comment #419575

“The Democratic Party historically is the party of slavery. The Democratic Party is the party of Jim Crow laws. The Democratic Party fought civil rights for a century.

And so by rights — or at least by the standards established by the Cultural Revolutionaries of today’s American left — we should ban the Democratic Party.”

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-statues-democrats-kass-0820-20170818-column.html

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 20, 2017 5:37 PM
Comment #419584

Destruction of property is not protected by the first amendment.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2017 6:45 AM
Comment #419585

“The President’s restrictionist immigration policies have the effect of reducing the number of nonwhite Americans.”

It also will reduce the number low skilled workers displacing americans. Something that unchecked illegal immigration has been doing for far too long. Trying to paint the immigration thing as a racial issue won’t change the damage it has done to american workers, and this country in general.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2017 6:53 AM
Post a comment