Liberals

What we call things helps determine our attitudes towards them. We need a rethink of fundamental political terms, specifically the term liberal in politics.

The term was first applied to politics around 1770 and was popularized by Adam Smith, author of "Wealth of Nations." It included factors that today we would call conservative and liberal. For example, liberals were opposed to restrictions on labor, supported free trade, were suspicious of government regulation and advocated reduced taxation. It was a system of personal liberty, as the terms origin in the Latin word "liber" or free.

The United State was founded on liberal principles and aspirations. The Founders recognized that the United States would always be a work in progress, because that is what liberals believe. We strive but never achieve perfection, hence their odd modification of the word perfect in the Constitution. (In principle, perfect is binary. It is either perfect or not. It would be impossible to make something perfect more perfect.) And our nation remained a liberal republic for the next century and a half, becoming "more perfect" and in the process going from an unstable little experiment of about 3 million citizens hugging the east coast of North America to a continental sized world power.

Liberalism made America great. It was the quest for freedom and opportunity that brought millions of immigrants to America and their freedom to choose that broke down their old superstations and loyalties and made them Americans. It was the belief in freedom that made slavery unacceptable to many and led them to shed blood to end it. It was freedom that allowed science and technology to thrive and develop, making America the leader in science. It was freedom that grew our economy. This was the work of liberalism. The ideology dominated our political and economic thought. It even spawned an American philosophy - pragmatism - that embodied and enhanced many of its tenets.

I will let true scholars determine exact dates and causes, but clearly liberalism began to split around 1900, with economic liberalism coming to be identified as "conservative" and liberal being identified with bigger government and increasing control. Some of this change made sense. Recall "more perfect," which implies always becoming but never finishing. A fundamental belief of liberalism was dislike of concentrations of power. It could be argued the government needed to grow stronger to balance the growing power of big business. Concentration of power in either would be bad for both.

The first half of the 20th Century was challenging. Our republic fought and won the two most destructive wars in human history. Victory required organization more than a simple liberal republic could muster. We organized and did remarkably well. The transition from a local republic to a world spanning power destroyed the Roman Republic and corrupted Athenian Democracy. In fact, history has no example of a successful transition ... except our - so far.

The Americans who shepherded the transition were remarkably modest. They were building a world power, but they still retained as individuals and in cooperation the core ideas of liberalism, most importantly the idea of limits. After victory in the greatest war in world history and in command of more than half to the total productive capacity of the world at that time, America did not overreach. I can think of no other historical example. It was very liberal. They did not push the limits.

America has always been a can-do sort of place. But we kept ourselves under control by the dispersal of power. It is great for an entrepreneur to be single minded, driven and aggressive. He will be limited by the aspirations of others. What is great in the private sector is a terrible vice in government, where the actors have the power to resort to coercion.

Liberalism was all about persuasion. In the 1960s, some liberals became about coercion. This is what gave liberalism its bad name. Instead of using government in a limited fashion to create common good and later to use it to counter concentration of power in other sectors of society, some liberals advocated using government proactively to coerce what they could not persuade.

Let's be clear, much of what they wanted to do was objectively good. The point was the method used to achieve the good could end up making it bad. To take a prosaic example, exercise is good. Determining how much individuals "need" to exercise and forcing them to do it is bad.

What we call today liberal is often very unliberal. True liberals should take back the term.

When I see our new president advocate such illiberal policies such as attacking free trade, interfering with lawful travel and exchange and just plain political overreach, I want to oppose that. Sometimes the goal is good. For example, I think it is good that firms create jobs in America, but I dislike the president using personal political power to coerce that. Rule of law is important even when it fails to produce the results we like. On the other hand, I cannot accept the blind resistance and opposition to our legitimate president. I believe in that rule of law too. And I vehemently oppose aggressive protests that shut down free speech and interfere with legitimate commerce.

I suspect (hope) that there are many others that think as I do on this. People who believe in the rule of law, even when it produces results I dislike, who defend speech, even that speech they hate, who believe in their own fallibility and by extension that of all human systems, so that that they believe in limiting and dispersing power., people who believe that individuals in voluntary association are better than coercion, people who are optimistic, but not perfectionist.

What should we call ourselves? I think we take back the term liberal. F those proto-fascists who stole te term and take to the streets. Calling things what they are is a step toward understanding.

Below is what Adam Smith called liberal.

-----------
All systems either of preference or of restraint, therefore, being thus completely taken away, the obvious and simple system of natural liberty establishes itself of its own accord. Every man, as long as he does not violate the laws of justice, is left perfectly free to pursue his own interest his own way, and to bring both his industry and capital into competition with those of any other man, or order of men.

Posted by Christine & John at February 2, 2017 11:31 AM
Comments
Comment #412832

Very interesting. I certainly identify as a liberal even though the modern Left has occasionally indulged illiberal ideas (notably the notion on some university campuses that certain beliefs or ideas should not be expressed aloud). Stubborn as I am, I do not yield the term to those who use it improperly. I’ve long considered John Matel to be more liberal than conservative, given a decade of reading his writing on WatchBlog. He accidentally fell for the Right’s con regarding their supposed commitment to economic liberalism, but I am glad to see him wisen up.

As we are now discovering with Donald Trump, the American Right has absolutely no problem with concentrations of power. As I have said many times before, the primary concern with conservatives everywhere is defending the power of incumbency. Concentrating power is okay for conservatives as long as those wielding that power are part of the preexisting hierarchy. This is why we see such sharp opinions regarding immigration. The entrance of foreigners into our country constitutes a massive disruption to the power of people already here. The same can also be said for the ascendancy of the Left’s activism against the privilege wielded by people who happen to be cisgenderer, heteronormative, white, male or Christian.

Liberalism has certainly has undergone a transformation over the past century. Mostly, this was due to the discovery that our political government is not the only source of legal coercion. Private interests can also wield power to prevent the individual from pursuing his own goals. For the past 50 years, the Left has decided to fight fire with fire. The coercion of political government has been employed to topple the hegemony of private “governments”. Meanwhile the Right does its best to resist that effort.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 2, 2017 12:21 PM
Comment #412837

President Trump is attempting the devolution of power; from the national government back to the individual states. Just a couple of examples are his undoing of many economically harmful bureaucratic regulations and curtailing the too powerful and onerous EPA.

I find this Liberating.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 2, 2017 3:03 PM
Comment #412840
What we call things helps determine our attitudes towards them. We need a rethink of fundamental political terms, specifically the term liberal in politics.

How Orwellian C&J. If this is an example of rethinking political terms “F those proto-fascists who stole te term and take to the streets” then lets not rush to rethink terms just yet. Lets remember this Milo clown is a fascist and he is bringing his hate to UC Berkeley and well….
what is the difference between the F protestors of today, who take it upon themselves to persuade universities to cancel Fascist speeches in liberal neighborhoods, and the Labour party amongst other left leaning groups in Britain prior to WWII keeping Fascism at bay. Legitimizing Milo doesn’t help the country IMHO. Even though he does have a right to say what he wants, perhaps he just can’t say it anywhere he wants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

You seem to be already trying to tell us these liberal freedom fighters are “proto-fascist” but then you have always tried to make fascism a left wing ideology, despite it being right wing in reality. I just can’t seem to trust you when you want to “rethink” political terms, it’s like you have an agenda to rename Trump and call him Reagan.

Conservatives have a reputation of appeasing Fascist, Chamberlain being an example, and it causes me to wonder if this is a type of coverup on the part of conservatives, what with Trump and his administration breathing new life into the fascist of this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 2, 2017 3:14 PM
Comment #412841

Rampaging, Masked Protesters Destroying Berkeley Campus, Setting Fires, over Milo Speech

https://news.grabien.com/story-masked-protesters-starting-fires-tearing-down-fences-outside-1

Shameful, simply shameful. Even a dog doesn’t shit where he sleeps.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 2, 2017 3:35 PM
Comment #412846

Great post, C&J

Today’s ‘liberals’ are anything but liberal.
They hold government in higher regard than they do the individual. They stand for a centralized government headed only by a powerful left-wing leader. They support severe economic regimentation for the redistribution of wealth. They support severe social regimentation for conditioning their ideas of fairness. And, as DC, Seattle, Berkeley etc… have shown, they most definitely support the forcible suppression of all opposition.

Posted by: kctim at February 2, 2017 4:12 PM
Comment #412847

This quote is from a writer who has great insight into the Trump strategy. We recall how the Left on WB was convinced that massive amounts of money and massive demonstrations would defeat Governor Walker and his union reformation. We recall the mess these Loonies left behind, both in the state capital and in the Democrat Party. Let’s look at their failure.

“While the opponents were massing in Madison, the Walker crowd was running another offense in local districts. In 2011, the Senate was barely Republican — 17 to 16 — and the Assembly was strongly Republican, 57 to 38. Today, the Senate is overwhelmingly Republican — 20 to 13 — while the Assembly is even more Republican — 64 to 34.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/democrats-played-article-1.2961872

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 2, 2017 4:39 PM
Comment #412857

I understand what you are saying. I really do but when you condense your assertion into a simplified theory that is both baseless and rife with flawed logic, you lose me.

Posted by: Andre Hernandez at February 2, 2017 6:41 PM
Comment #412871

Trump supporters, I guess we should call them liberals so conser4vatives can sleep at night.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 3, 2017 1:04 AM
Comment #412897

You guys have completely missed C&J’s point. Trump is the most illiberal President in US History.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 3, 2017 3:15 PM
Comment #412898

Warren, you are not paying attention. President Trump has already devolved some national power back to the states. He is working to give back to congress the Constitutional powers they gave up or failed to employ during the Obama administration.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 3:28 PM
Comment #412901

RF,

You are completely delusional. All Trump has done is concentrate power in the hands of private interests. Neither state governments nor anyone else is stepping in to regulate our economy in order to prevent citizens from harming one another.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 3, 2017 3:46 PM
Comment #412904

Warren, please be coherent in your post. State governments have never been in charge of our economy and devolution of power bears no relationship to violence by individuals.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 3:57 PM
Comment #412905

RF,

Before Trump, we had a Federal government that wielded enough power to prevent citizens from harming each other. Now, the Federal government is surrendering that power. You posit that States are up to the task of providing the necessary regulations. As you accurately state, states have never taken charge of the economy before and it is unlikely to expect things will be any different. The consequence is that most of the power will be wielded by privileged citizens who control various private interests. Said citizens will abuse that power and harm Americans. It is inevitable.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 3, 2017 4:11 PM
Comment #412907

Warren, I understand your fear of power, illegitimately held by the national government, being returned to the individual states as intended in the Constitution.

The Democrat Party, dominated by Liberal/Progressive factions, has managed to curtail our individual freedom and liberty by using federal courts and various national bureaucratic agencies.

The will of the people on issues relating to the right to work, gun laws, immigration laws, public schools, religion and more have been thwarted. President Trump is taking steps to return power to the states and the people living in those states. I fully support his efforts to LIBERATE our citizens from the tyranny found in our national government.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 4:29 PM
Comment #412908

Der Spiegel is one of the two or three major German magazines, comparable to Time. Remember all that talk about liberty, and how Obama was a weak leader, and everyone would respect the foreign policy of Trump and the conservatives? Here is how the Germans see us:

http://www.businessinsider.com/der-spiegel-trump-cover-immigration-ban-america-first-2017-2

Posted by: phx8 at February 3, 2017 4:34 PM
Comment #412917

RF,

I hate any concentrations of power, whether it be in government or elsewhere. The previous status quo included a very careful division of power among many entities; it was quite diffuse. Now, the Federal government’s share is being given to private interests, thereby concentrating it in a dangerous way, antithetical to liberalism. All it will do is enslave people to the interests of the privileged few who will wield that power to enrich themselves while harming others.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 3, 2017 6:07 PM
Comment #412918

Warren, I wish to understand your charges of power transferring to private interests. Can you be specific? Thanks.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 6:13 PM
Comment #412920

Warren, do you include public employee unions as wielding too much power?

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 6:18 PM
Comment #412924

Yes, public sector unions do hold too much power.

wish to understand your charges of power transferring to private interests. Can you be specific?

The rollback of environmental regulations empowers some citizens and corporate entities to harm other citizens. I do not want to live in a Hobbesian war of all against all where people are able to harm each other freely.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 3, 2017 7:17 PM
Comment #412925

OK Warren, I don’t wish citizens harmed either. Are you not aware of the harm done to citizens and corporate entities by regulations instituted during the Obama administration?

How do we find a good balance Warren. Can we find regulations that help everyone and harm no one?

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 7:37 PM
Comment #412926

My sense on regulations Warren is simple. If they are politically motivated, they are not needed.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2017 7:39 PM
Comment #412928
Can we find regulations that help everyone and harm no one?

Every rule or law comes with costs and benefits. The goal is to minimize the former and maximize the latter.

Requiring a coal-fired power plant to install scrubbers to reduce sulfate emissions might impose a small financial harm to the plant’s owner, but the harm wrought from unmitigated sulfate emissions is far higher.

If they are politically motivated, they are not needed.
I agree 100%. This is why I am opposed to Trump’s recent actions regarding immigration. Posted by: Warren Porter at February 3, 2017 8:00 PM
Comment #412943

j2t2

Protesting free speech by shouting it down or even tolerating violence to do it is a fascist tactic. I oppose it even when I dislike the target. That is why I am more “liberal” in the original sense than you are and why we need to rethink the term that gets the descriptions wrong.

Posted by: Christine & John at February 4, 2017 12:58 PM
Comment #412945

Give me Liberty and Freedom from needless, crippling and expensive bureaucratic regulations.

I agree with these sentiments; Immediate reforms should include requiring legislation to undergo an analysis of regulatory impacts before a floor vote in Congress, and requiring every major regulation to obtain congressional approval before taking effect. Sunset deadlines should be set in law for all major rules, and independent agencies should be subject—as are executive branch agencies—to the White House regulatory review process.

I recall participating in “cost/benefit” studies my senior year pursuing a degree in Natural Resource Management. It was so simple to inflate benefits to justify the cost of a new park, biking trail or lake.

This is what the FDA has done with their new (2014) “nutrition” labeling requirement for restaurants and other food establishments. They claim a benefit of $6.6 billion in 20 years from a reduction in obesity. Pure guess work and plain bullshit. Wishful thinking replaces facts.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 2:17 PM
Comment #412946

Give the nations parents and students freedom and liberty in our schools.

Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education under President Trump will provide states with tools to give students and their parents a say in how they’re taught at school. Trump nominated her to devolve power (Liberate) to our individual states and local school boards.

Democrats oppose “school choice” as they wish to maintain the the teacher unions as allies and large contributors to their electoral campaigns.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 3:21 PM
Comment #412947
Give me Liberty and Freedom from needless, crippling and expensive bureaucratic regulations.

I’m sure the mob boss pines just as strongly for Liberty and Freedom from needless, crippling and expensive bureaucratic regulations such as laws against racketeering, murder and other key components of his “business”.

Immediate reforms should include requiring legislation to undergo an analysis of regulatory impacts before a floor vote in Congress, and requiring every major regulation to obtain congressional approval before taking effect.

We don’t run to Congress every time a new dead body shows up in order to determine whether or not a murder occurred. The executive branch is perfectly capable of enforcing Congress’ legislation without letting 535 amateurs mucking things up. Congress’ job is to legislate, not litigate.

Sunset deadlines should be set in law
Should our laws forbidding murder have sunset deadlines as well?
I recall participating in “cost/benefit” studies my senior year pursuing a degree in Natural Resource Management. It was so simple to inflate benefits to justify the cost of a new park, biking trail or lake.

This is what the FDA has done with their new (2014) “nutrition” labeling requirement for restaurants and other food establishments. They claim a benefit of $6.6 billion in 20 years from a reduction in obesity. Pure guess work and plain bullshit. Wishful thinking replaces facts.
If there are ways to improve cost/benefit analysis, then please speak up. I am all ears. Otherwise, this is just argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 3:31 PM
Comment #412949

Nice try “little buddy”. It took comparing a restaurant menu with murder for Warren to make his idiotic, big government justification points.

He claims the mantle of Liberalism yet denies Liberty.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 4:21 PM
Comment #412951

So, punishing murder is idiotic? Perhaps Royal Flush doesn’t mind if I insert a lethal dose of polonium into his next meal.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 4:57 PM
Comment #412952
Protesting free speech by shouting it down or even tolerating violence to do it is a fascist tactic.

So only Milo should be allowed to exercise his free speech rights and those opposed to this fascist are fascist for exercising their free speech rights?

I oppose it even when I dislike the target.

So did the University, despite Trumps threats. When a provocateur provokes people and people respond you seem to support the provocateur only. He came into a liberal neighborhood to spout anti-liberal hate and cause violence and destruction to occur.Seems he got his message out.

Some think the portion of the protestors that were the violent protestors are his people. Some think they are an anti-fascist group. Most agree it wasn’t the students.

That is why I am more “liberal” in the original sense than you are and why we need to rethink the term that gets the descriptions wrong.

I would disagree C&J. One sided free speech is still one sided. More liberal would, IMHO, include both sides, the provocateur and the provoked. You seem to want to discredit the provoked.

Now can we get back to those provoked at Cable St. and my question, seeings you have a background in history. Were they wrong for stopping the fascist provocateurs of their day? What is the difference between the provoked then and the protestors, both groups the students and the organized anti-fascist or fascist that caused the damage at the protest, of today?

Posted by: j2t2 at February 4, 2017 4:58 PM
Comment #412954

Warren, money was wasted on your education if the goal was to learn critical thinking.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 5:07 PM
Comment #412955

RF,

Ad hominen attacks and sophistry are terrible ways to prove a point.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 5:30 PM
Comment #412957

Warren, your inane “murder” comment designed to deflect serious discussion, or disguise incompetence, requires “terrible” ways to expose your lack of critical thinking and to protect others from contamination.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 6:10 PM
Comment #412958

RF,

I’m sorry. Please substitute manslaughter for murder if it offends your feeble sensibilities.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 6:35 PM
Comment #412960

Sorry Warren, your “F” in critical thinking will not be changed.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 6:40 PM
Comment #412962

RF,

How about lending a hand to help a poor uneducated soul understand your “brilliance”?

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 6:54 PM
Comment #412963

Warren, are you prepared to become an apprentice for seven years?

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 6:59 PM
Comment #412964

I am always ready to learn new things.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 7:02 PM
Comment #412966

Food and candles are limited and the straw bed in the stable could cause sneezing.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 7:04 PM
Comment #412968

If that was intended to deter me, it didn’t work.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 4, 2017 7:10 PM
Comment #412969

You pass the resolve test Warren. I will do some weekend “mulling” and let you know my decision.

Now it’s time to play some chess. Thanks for the fun.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 4, 2017 7:15 PM
Comment #412971

Perhaps someone here can put their “critical” thinking caps on and explain Trumps response to Bill O’Reilly’s assertion that Putin is a killer:”What, do you think our country’s so innocent?” http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/02/04/trump-fox-interview/97508274/

I found it an astounding remark. A Wall Street deputy Editor put his reaction this way: “Trump puts US on moral par with Putin’s Russia. Never in history has a President slandered his country like this.” https://twitter.com/StephensWSJ

Posted by: Rich at February 5, 2017 12:04 AM
Comment #412972

Rich, I know what Ronald Reagan would have thought.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 5, 2017 11:28 AM
Comment #412993

The remark was inappropriate in my opinion.

I also believe that Obama’s “Apology Tour” of the Mideast in his first year in office was inappropriate and his agreement with Raul Castro’s disparaging remarks regarding the US while in Cuba.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 3:15 PM
Comment #412994

Warren, I finished my “mulling” and decided not to accept you as my apprentice. Apply again in a year after proving to me that you will follow my direction and are willing to learn.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 3:19 PM
Comment #412995

Looks like 80 wasted years has left you a fool. I wish you well in your next chess match.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 6, 2017 4:15 PM
Comment #412996

Rich,
The Trump comment putting America on a moral par with Russia was a jaw dropper. If it were just a one-off gaffe, everyone would expect an apology, or clarification, or some other exercise in ‘what the President meant to say.’ But that is not what we have here. Trump keeps playing nice with Putin. If Trump is not already compromised, he should contact the Russian Ambassador and at least get paid for what he is doing.

It really is bizarre. No one supports him on this. Not Democrats. Not Republicans. Not liberals. Not conservatives. Maybe the Alt Right is down with it, since Putin is a ethno nationalist.

Caught a few minutes of Limbaugh this morning. He tried playing a little ‘whataboutism,’ claiming Obama said all sorts of terrible things about America, but nothing materialized and there was no way to sugarcoat what Trump said. Limbaugh basically ended up shrugging and throwing his hands up in the air. What Trump said is indefensible.

Pelosi called for a hearing into Trump’s involvement with the Russians.

Posted by: phx8 at February 6, 2017 4:23 PM
Comment #412997

Exposed: How world leaders were duped into investing billions over manipulated global warming data

“NOAA’s 2015 ‘Pausebuster’ paper was based on two new temperature sets of data – one containing measurements of temperatures at the planet’s surface on land, the other at the surface of the seas.

Both datasets were flawed. This newspaper has learnt that NOAA has now decided that the sea dataset will have to be replaced and substantially revised just 18 months after it was issued, because it used unreliable methods which overstated the speed of warming. The revised data will show both lower temperatures and a slower rate in the recent warming trend.

The land temperature dataset used by the study was afflicted by devastating bugs in its software that rendered its findings ‘unstable’.”

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4192182/World-leaders-duped-manipulated-global-warming-data.html#ixzz4XwW9fov5

Once again, my charges of manipulated data to prove MMGW, are vindicated.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 4:30 PM
Comment #412998

LOL…sorry Warren, I haven’t reached the 80 year mark yet.

Age and cunning will beat foolish youthful exuberance every time. There is a reason the Constitution places a minimum age limit to qualify for the office of the presidency.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 4:44 PM
Comment #412999

RF,
Here is an extensively linked and sourced article from the London School of Economics on the Climate Change article from the Daily Mail:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/GranthamInstitute/news/more-fake-news-in-the-mail-on-sunday/

If you scroll down, you will see a particularly egregious lie promoted by the Daily Mail in the form of a graph.

After reading the article, you will know for a fact that the people spreading this article are purveyors of ‘fake news.’ Watch it spread. Note who spreads it.

Posted by: phx8 at February 6, 2017 5:33 PM
Comment #413000

Sorry phx8, the article you link concentrates on nearly everything but what is claimed by Dr. Bates. The writer dances all over the place but never gets to the meat of Dr. Bates whistle-blower charges. You may disparage “The Mail” author all you wish, but the real challenge to MMGW comes from Dr. Bates.

“But the whistleblower, Dr John Bates, a top NOAA scientist with an impeccable reputation, has shown The Mail on Sunday irrefutable evidence that the paper was based on misleading, ‘unverified’ data.

It was never subjected to NOAA’s rigorous internal evaluation process – which Dr Bates devised.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4192182/World-leaders-duped-manipulated-global-warming-data.html#ixzz4Xwrmcf2L

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 5:59 PM
Comment #413001

The Daily Mail article is based on an interview. As noted by the LSE, the article is full of inaccuracies. This is standard work by the author of the article, David Rose, and that newspaper. He has been repeatedly debunked.

The actual article by John Bates is on a blog and is also linked in the LSE article.

“Dr Bates’ main complaint is that Dr Karl and his co-authors did not follow strict procedures required for NOAA’s ‘operational’ data. It is not yet clear whether Dr Karl should have subjected his research data to the same procedures. Dr Karl, who retired from NOAA in August 2016, has not yet had the opportunity to respond fully to Dr Bates’ allegations.”

“Dr Bates also claims in his blog that Dr Karl had his “thumb on the scale pushing for, and often insisting on, decisions that maximize warming”, but does not provide any evidence to support this serious allegation.”
(from the previous lse link)

“What [Rose] fails to mention is that the new NOAA results have been validated by independent data from satellites, buoys and Argo floats and that many other independent groups, including Berkeley Earth and the UK’s Met Office Hadley Centre, get effectively the same results.

… Rose’s claim that NOAA’s results “can never be verified” is patently incorrect, as we just published a paper independently verifying the most important part of NOAA’s results.”

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-mail-sundays-astonishing-evidence-global-temperature-rise

The basic contention is false. Whether the original article made errors or not, others have verified the data.

Here is another extensively linked article on Rose and Bates:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/2/5/1630229/-Retired-NOAA-scientist-feels-slighted-sets-world-afire-in-revenge

Do you really believe a scientist with a legitimate beef would go to the Daily Mail?

Posted by: phx8 at February 6, 2017 6:21 PM
Comment #413002
sorry Warren, I haven’t reached the 80 year mark yet.

You are closer to 80 than to 75. I’m sorry if my rounding offends your thin skin.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 6, 2017 6:36 PM
Comment #413003

Do you really believe a scientist with a legitimate beef would go to the Daily Mail?
Posted by: phx8 at February 6, 2017 6:21 PM

The point is phx8, did Dr. John Bates author the quotes used in the article or are the quotes false.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 6:45 PM
Comment #413004

No, the point is that the Daily Mail is a trashy tabloid. It is a little better than the National Enquirer, but not by much.

If you like legit British papers, The Guardian is liberal, the Daily Telegraph is conservative, and the Financial Times and the Independent straddle the middle.

The Economist is arguably the best surviving magazine in the English speaking world. It tends to be conservative.

Posted by: phx8 at February 6, 2017 6:54 PM
Comment #413005

Meanwhile, today Trump claimed in a speech to some troops that the media was not reporting terrorist attacks.

This guy is not mentally stable.

Posted by: phx8 at February 6, 2017 6:56 PM
Comment #413006

Warren, take your crystal ball in for a tune up as you are still incorrect regarding my age I just turned 76. Frankly, I am proud of all that I have accomplished in my seventy some years.

I have noticed that Warren is becoming more hostile with nearly each new post he writes. Here’s a young man with fine parents and loving family and most of the better things in life and yet he is constantly grousing about life’s unfairness.

My wish for Warren is that, as he matures and has more real world experience, he learns that individual freedom, happiness and liberty comes from within our own spirit and can not be legislated or gifted.

Warren appears to be so busy trying to perfect everyone else’s life that he is missing out on his own. Wake up my friend.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 7:02 PM
Comment #413007

phx8 insists; No, the point is that the Daily Mail is a trashy tabloid.”

I see. If a trashy tabloid accurately quoted the bible that would also be reason to not believe it.

Poor phx8, he just can’t find a reason to trash Dr. John Bates and the quotes printed by the trashy tabloid.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 7:06 PM
Comment #413008

William Happer is the Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics, Emeritus, in the Department of Physics at Princeton University. A long-time member of JASON, a group of scientists which provides independent advice to the U.S. government on matters relating to science, technology, and national security, Happer served as Director of the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office of Science from 1991–1993.

“Government actions to combat the non-existent problem (MMGW) have blighted the landscape with windmills and solar farms. They have driven up the price of electricity, which has disproportionately harmed the poorest segments of society. Government actions have corrupted science, which has been flooded by money to produce politically correct results. It is time for governments to finally admit the truth about global warming. Warming is not the problem. Government action is the problem.”

http://www.thebestschools.org/special/karoly-happer-dialogue-global-warming/william-happer-interview/

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 7:39 PM
Comment #413009

Royal Flush,

So you voted illegally for JFK in 1960? Right now, you are claiming you were no more than 20 years old at the time. This was before the the twenty-sixth amendment to the Constitution extended suffrage to younger Americans.

I have noticed that Warren is becoming more hostile with nearly each new post he writes. Here’s a young man with fine parents and loving family and most of the better things in life and yet he is constantly grousing about life’s unfairness.

If you sense hostility, it must be psychological projection because I display none. You say I grouse about life’s unfairness when I am entirely content with the state of affairs at the end of the Obama administration. You’ve been the one constantly griping about LFPR, GDP growth, minor crime increases and whatnot. It’s truly sad to see a man cover up the personal dissatisfaction he sees in his life by lashing out at another person. Issues of ageism are a constant fallback whenever Royal Flush’s philosophy falls apart.

I suspect you regret opportunities you may have missed out when you were young. I have a gift of potential that you can only dream of and it makes you jealous. Of course, it is up to me to figure out how to use this gift wisely. I appreciate all the help and advice I can get from my elders. However, I do not judge knowledge’s quality by the age of the individual who gives it. Otherwise, I’d mindlessly follow my centenarian great-aunt’s politics. Bless her soul, but she is far left of where I am. Regardless, I have far better mentors than to depend on Royal Flush’s depraved rantings.

My wish for Warren is that, as he matures and has more real world experience, he learns that individual freedom, happiness and liberty comes from within our own spirit and can not be legislated or gifted.
This is the core of my personal philosophy. What really saddens me is that you don’t believe the same, with your exuberance premised upon gifts Donald Trump promises are in his sack. My Christian friends gave up believing in Santa Claus long ago, but apparently in East Texas a true believer can still be found. I won’t disturb your misplaced trust today, but I will assure you this: Letting government pick losers and winners in our economy is destined to fail. Socialism never works no matter who tries it and Donald Trump’s bluster will not overcome that fact. Eventually, he will run out of other people’s money. Posted by: Warren Porter at February 6, 2017 7:50 PM
Comment #413010

Thanks for copying my words and claiming them for yourself Warren. I am flattered. Still, no apprenticeship for you.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 6, 2017 7:56 PM
Comment #413012

Those were not you words. It’s so sad that you’ve now resorted to lying. I’ll pray for you tonight. May your soul find peace.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 6, 2017 8:12 PM
Comment #413019

My Buddy Warren claims; “Those were not you words.”

OK, I’ll bite, give me the link for the author of those words you believe I plagiarized.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2017 12:31 PM
Comment #413020

I believe “running out of other people’s money” is attributed to Margaret Thatcher, not you.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 7, 2017 12:35 PM
Comment #413021

You just can’t make this stuff up.

Here’s a link to two videos of the Democrat “brain” trust featuring Nancy Pelosi and Maxine Waters. No spin, just them and their words.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/confusion-nancy-pelosi-says-seen-nothing-can-work-president-bush/

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2017 12:48 PM
Comment #413022

Good Grief Warren, follow the quotation marks please.

Me: “My wish for Warren is that, as he matures and has more real world experience, he learns that individual freedom, happiness and liberty comes from within our own spirit and can not be legislated or gifted.”

Warren: This is the core of my personal philosophy.

Get it? Got it? Good!

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2017 12:51 PM
Comment #413023

Hurrah…Betsy DeVos confirmed by senate as new education secretary.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2017 12:58 PM
Comment #413024

RF,

Seriously, that’s what you were referring too? The sentence I quoted was not an example of your mastery as a wordsmith. The notion that individual freedom, happiness and liberty comes from within our own spirit and can not be legislated or gifted is ubiquitous to centuries of liberal tradition.

Hurrah…Betsy DeVos confirmed by senate as new education secretary.

How’s that PPACA repeal bill going? Oh, silly me. How’s that PPACA repair bill going? I hear Paul Ryan and the gang are still searching for the magic pixie dust they’ll need to keep the ban on discrimination prefaced upon preexisting conditions without an individual mandate. Meanwhile, the public’s fervor in favor of the law only grows.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 7, 2017 1:56 PM
Comment #413045

Meanwhile, the public’s fervor in favor of the law only grows.
Posted by: Warren Porter at February 7, 2017 1:56 PM

Since Warren is such a child on political issues I will respond in language he understands.

Giggle…Giggle

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 8, 2017 6:54 PM
Comment #413056

From all appearances, I am the only adult here. If you need a friend to giggle with you, I suggest you visit your local daycare center.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2017 8:52 AM
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