Voting Trump does not make you a racist

I was a Trump opponent, but the hysterical reaction of our leftist friend to his election tempts me to be joyful at his election. His election stuck a thumb in the eye of the PC folks and the grievance industry. They will now to at a disadvantage. Personnel is policy. W/o the Obama appointees pushing the PC line, at least some of this movement will atrophy.

We hear a lot about the uptick in hate crimes after Trump's election, but we see evident of real violence almost exclusively on the left. The rioters breaking windows and starting fires in Oregon were leftists. The thugs who dragged a guy out of his car and beat him because he was a Trump supporter were anti-Trump. The school kids who threw a fellow student to the ground and kicked him were out protesting for peace & love were against the president-elect. The clowns blocking highways and making messes in the parks do it in the name of the left.

Let's be clear. Actual violence against people or property is illegal. It does not matter if it is done in the name of Trump or anti-Trump. I am against it. But we need to make a distinction between someone saying nasty things in email and one kicking an opponent in the face.

And with race it is really very simple. If you treat similar behaviors differently only because of race, you are racist. If you do no, you are not racist. You are not racist just because you are white or because of how you vote. You need not feel guilty about anything you do not do. And it doesn't even really matter what you think, ONLY what you do.

Don't let people tell you about privelge or special rights. All that matter is how you behave.

Posted by Christine & John at November 17, 2016 9:54 AM
Comments
Comment #410156
But we need to make a distinction between someone saying nasty things in email and one kicking an opponent in the face.

Dismissing the former as “nasty things in email” is precisely the problem. The focus on what you termed “real violence” is exactly the problem.

Imagine if a commentator in 1933 Germany said he was more concerned with SPD demonstrations instead of the “Nasty Things” found in Mein Kampf. What you don’t understand John is that words have power and when push comes to shove, the pen is indeed mightier than the sword.

Now this isn’t to say it is the government’s job to regulate speech. In fact, our Constitution expressly prohibits that. However, it ought to be the duty of every citizen to treat the purveyors of racist hate speech with the shame and humiliation they deserve instead of focusing on distractions.

The issue that is stake is not peace v. violence. It’s normal v. abnormal. While we would all like to champion peace, the fact is that violent crime has been a normal fixture in all of human history. We work to reduce that violence in furtherance of our founders’ goal of a “More Perfect Union”. However, that project must take a backseat when we are faced with the abnormal challenge posed by the renaissance of racism has emerged.

After the Alt-Right has been thoroughly delegitimized can we move back to complaining about whether or not this or that protest was too violent or not. I am pretty sure Donald Trump is not personally Racist any more than you or I. However, his usage of identity politics has given a certain basket of deplorables unbridled confidence that their beliefs will be condoned by the wider society. It is the obligation of all freedom-loving Americans to make it clear that such beliefs have no place in modern discourse.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 12:03 PM
Comment #410158

Fear of losing the ability to force the PC line is what this ‘movement’ and its so-called protesters are ALL about.

Unfortunately, this childish behavior will continue over the next 4 years and their violence will only escalate.

Posted by: kctim at November 17, 2016 12:09 PM
Comment #410159

Warren

Few nasty leaders turn out to be Hitler, Stalin or Mao. These guys rose to power under conditions that we just do not have in the United States.

And it is the mark of intelligence to make reasonable distinctions. I have received nasty emails, as I am sure you have. They did not turn into anything important.

I do not see this “renaissance of racism.” It has gotten a bit worse under Obama, perhaps ironically, but the very fact that being called a racist is something almost everyone dislikes indicates that it is not ascendant.

And I dislike identity politics. I have long worried that we would see some white identity politics in the way we have long seen it among blacks. It is a bad development either way, perhaps worse among white because there are so many more of them.

I believe that elevating the trivia of email posts or the odd name calling to a big issue is a mistake.

I also heavily dislike all that talk of privelge and implicit bias. This violates my ideas on morality and reason. I have to admit, that some of what Trump says pleases me, since he sticks it to those PC fools. I think that was part of the Trump appeal.

The thing about beliefs is that we can discuss them but we do not have the right to anathematize them unless they lead to specific behaviors that we can deplore. What you do matters a lot. What you say matters some. What you think matters not at all unless it leads to one of the others.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 17, 2016 12:22 PM
Comment #410162

North Korea can get their people to cry on demand. They tell them the boss wants them to cry and they cry. If they don’t cry hard enough or long enough, or show true sorrow they get fed to the dogs or something like that.

We’re on our way toward that kind of behavior. We have mothers throwing their children into the cold night because they don’t vote the way they’re expected to. It’s just a matter of time the majority in this country will cry on demand because we fail to recognize intimidation when we see it. By the time we do recognize it it will be too late.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 17, 2016 2:15 PM
Comment #410165
being called a racist is something almost everyone dislikes indicates that it is not ascendant.

Yes, but if people like you are unwilling to call people racist for engaging in racist behavior or writing racist things, then the power behind the word “racist” becomes purely hypothetical. A weapon that people refuse to use is as impotent as no weapon at all.

Few nasty leaders turn out to be Hitler, Stalin or Mao.

I know, I wrote a post on the Blue side making this distinction. However, there is still an analogy to be made. It did not take much time before “nasty words” became state-sanctioned genocide, which means such “nasty words” should never be accepted as normal.

I believe that elevating the trivia of email posts or the odd name calling to a big issue is a mistake.

And I think it is a big mistake to consider these matters to be trivial. You must understand that these things breach taboos that we’ve enforced for half a century. Once those taboos are gone, it will be very difficult to rebuild them. We all have an obligation to tell people that such language has no place in American discourse.

I also heavily dislike all that talk of privelge and implicit bias. This violates my ideas on morality and reason.

I will definitely admit that leftist activists have misused these words in inappropriate ways. These are concepts that were originally created by academics to describe behaviors and conditions that they observed. These terms were never meant to induce guilt or shame, but only to increase awareness about how people operate. If you want, we can have an academic discussion about this, but it requires leaving certain political baggage at the door. However, I believe such a discussion would distract from more important issues. I am truly sorry that some of my brethren have used “white privilege” as a slur to bludgeon opinions they don’t like or to justify increasing state control. But please understand, that these phrases have useful meanings that describe phenomena that definitely does exist in our world.

The thing about beliefs is that we can discuss them but we do not have the right to anathematize them unless they lead to specific behaviors that we can deplore. What you do matters a lot. What you say matters some. What you think matters not at all unless it leads to one of the others.

Here’s the lesson history teaches us: Every time the taboo against this sort of language has been breached for an extended period of time, calamity follows soon thereafter. Every genocide in history has been preceded by a rise in bigoted speech. I discuss interbellum Europe because it is a history with which I am familiar. But, other examples lead to similar conclusions. Believe me, if I thought it was possible for things to remain simply a matter of words, I would not be treating it as I am right now. But it isn’t, if this problem is no nipped in the bud, it will definitely escalate to deplorable violence that will seriously threaten the stability of American Democracy.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 2:36 PM
Comment #410166

The North Koreans endorsed Trump.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-usa-trump-idUSKCN0YN35S

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 2:38 PM
Comment #410167

“Voting Trump does not make you racist.”

But as someone tweeted, voting Trump means that, for you, racism is not a deal breaker.

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 2:39 PM
Comment #410169

“We hear a lot about the uptick in hate crimes after Trump’s election, but we see evident of real violence almost exclusively on the left.”

There have been tens of thousands of people participating in protests, and yes, there has been a small amount of property damage. For the most part, the protests have been peaceful.

A person participating in my writing group is black. The other day some white guys in a pick-up truck yelled some racist things at her. Later, she found a swastika painted on her garage door.

This isn’t some random person or racist internet propaganda ploy. This happened to someone I know.

Another person I know works with children. She and her co-worker had to develop an emergency plan to deal with cyber-bullying. The Hispanic kids are getting texts to leave the country, and that they will be deported. Wonder where the little darlings learned to just fire away at all Hispanics?

So this is another person I personally know who is dealing with the rise of the Alt-right, white nationalism, white supremacy.

Our Constitution failed us. More Americans voted for a Democratic president, Democratic Senators, and Democratic Representatives, and the Supreme Court should have seen a 5th justice approved.

Instead, we are now under the control of a hostile minority. And make no mistake. This minority is HOSTILE towards the majority of Americans. The Chief Strategist in the White House ran “the platform for the Alt-Right.” Does anyone need to see some of his headlines.

These people are racists, misogynists, bigots, homophobes, and xenophobes. Make no mistake. They have already said so, loud and clear, many times. And remember, this is just the jumping off point. This is the beginning. We will not start at ‘A’ and instantly move to ‘Z.’ The process of applying this agenda will take time. The Alt-Right is confident and assertive and stupid, and none of that will stop them.

And like I said, many of you may not be racist, but by going along with this, you are demonstrating that racism is not a deal breaker.

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 2:50 PM
Comment #410170

racists, misogynists, bigots, homophobes, and xenophobes

Is that a new word now, like supercalafragilisticexpeledocious?

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 17, 2016 2:56 PM
Comment #410171

What you do matters a lot. What you say matters some. What you think matters not at all unless it leads to one of the others.
Posted by: Christine & John at November 17, 2016 12:22 PM

Very well stated John.

Present day America in no way resembles Germany during the time of Hitler. Under the Nazi’s, what one did, said, and perhaps even thought (if surmised or suspected), against the state was punishable by prison or death.

Non-violent acts of racism are not illegal here; and I want it to remain so. We must all use extreme care before calling anyone a racist.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 2:57 PM
Comment #410176

Warren writes; “You must understand that these things breach taboos that we’ve enforced for half a century.”

OH, please Warren, think about what you wrote. When I was a young man it was taboo to have s*x out of marriage. An unmarried pregnant woman was ostracized. Gay s*x was taboo. Receiving any form of welfare was considered a character weakness. I could cite more examples.

The point is, “taboo” is simply what is not accepted by a majority.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 3:25 PM
Comment #410177
Present day America in no way resembles Germany during the time of Hitler

I believe I made comparisons to the final months of the Weimar Republic, not to the period after the NAZIs took power.

Non-violent acts of racism are not illegal here; and I want it to remain so
I agree.
We must all use extreme care before calling anyone a racist.
I agree, which is why I have taken the time to state unambiguously that a person who voted for Trump is not necessarily a racist. In fact, I believe only a minority of his supporters are racist.

However, the alt-right and their ilk are most definitely racist. The hateful ideology they espouse needs to be beaten back pronto lest it be allowed to plant seeds and take root as a permanent fixture of American politics.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 3:31 PM
Comment #410178
The point is, “taboo” is simply what is not accepted by a majority.

Some taboos are worth keeping; others are not.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 3:33 PM
Comment #410179

RF,
“Present day America in no way resembles Germany during the time of Hitler.”

True. However, the Nazis did not start with concentration camps. They worked up to it. They started with militarization and a very effective economic program. No one thinks the Alt-Right will create an effective economic program- they seem utterly uninterested- and it is an open question whether they will bother will further militarization. They swing between isolationism and attacking Syria, Iraq, and Iran, depending on the day of the week.

Like I said, it is a process that begins with mainstreaming white nationalism & white supremacy. For example, last night in an interview with Megyn Kelly, the Trump supporter said the Japanese internment camps from WWII “set a precedent” for the Trump program to set up a Muslim Registry, and go from there. Megyn was surprised, to say the least. Even recently this would have sparked a shocked reaction and universal rejection. Now, the idea has been introduced. It is being inserted into the mainstream.

What will happen when we face a crisis? Sooner or later, something will come up. What will happen the next time lone wolves kill Americans? How do you think white supremacists like Trump and Bannon will respond?

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 3:38 PM
Comment #410180

Jesus, you guys really are going to jump the shark and continue this ‘racism’ BS and lies all the way until another liberal is President, aren’t you.
Weren’t you the ones claiming that simply saying ‘islamic terrorists’ would recruit ‘moderate’ muslims? But you don’t think false claims of ‘white supremacists’ will do the same?
Weren’t you the ones claiming it was patriotic for leftists to hate the country? But now you are equating love of country to racism?
Weren’t you the ones who excused and defended the divisive racist words and actions of ‘black lives matter?’ But now you are using hearsay and how you think a person voted to shout racist?

If such lies and hypocrisy didn’t work after a decade and a half, and contributed to you losing the 2016 elections, why do you think it will work now?

Posted by: kctim at November 17, 2016 4:14 PM
Comment #410181

How do you think white supremacists like Trump and Bannon will respond?
Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 3:38 PM

You have a right to write, and perhaps even believe, such nonsense; and we will judge you by what you write.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 4:14 PM
Comment #410182

RF,
You do know, right, that Trump wants to “open up” the libel laws? In terms of history, that resembles the Alien and Sedition Act. Trump continuously pumps hatred of the media. This incoming administration is no fan of free speech.

kctim,
I have provided quotes and examples of Trump’s racism, bigotry, and misogyny in previous comments. Not my opinion. Quotes. Here is Trump mocking a disabled person:

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-s-worst-offense-mocking-disabled-reporter-poll-finds-n627736

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 4:23 PM
Comment #410183

kctim,
“Says crime statistics show blacks kill 81 percent of white homicide victims.
— Donald Trump on Sunday, November 22nd, 2015 in a tweet

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/23/donald-trump/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/

That tweet was reposted from a Neo Nazi message board. It was not the only time Trump did that.

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 4:26 PM
Comment #410184

RF,
And remember, this is our jumping off point. This is just the start. We have never seen an incoming president so openly hostile towards the media. Again and again, he has declared the media is rigged. Do you think his relationship with the press will improve over time? Right now, CNN and the right wing are fawning over Trump, and pretending we are all coming together to support him.

That is not true.

But Trump will like that message. The problem will come when the media pursues a story he does not like. You have seen the way he reacts. He engages in rants, personal vendettas, and he seek vengeance. In the past he declared he would change, but that never happened, and it is very doubtful that will happen in the future, either.

Posted by: phx8 at November 17, 2016 4:38 PM
Comment #410186

phx8 writes; “We have never seen an incoming president so openly hostile towards the media. Again and again, he has declared the media is rigged.”


We have never seen media so hostile to an incoming president.

I believe the media is rigged too.

Trump is not as good a political actor as Reagan yet, but he is a quick study. He successfully “plays” the media and many on the Left like a fiddle.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 4:52 PM
Comment #410187

Phx8,
You have provided nothing more than quotes and your partisan opinions of what you need them to mean. If Trump ever displays any ACTUAL racism, the media will jump on it and Americans will not stand for it.
I guarantee you didn’t jump to such conclusions over Obama’s own words or what he listened to the Rev. Wright say for 20 some years. In fact, I would bet that you bent over backwards claiming everybody who mentioned them were the true racists.

Your Obama made fun of special Olympics, Phx8. Spare us your faux concern and PC nonsense.

And what’s with this new ‘media’ talking-point every one of you guys have started repeating? As long as the media reports the truth, what does it matter whether Trump likes them or not?

Posted by: kctim at November 17, 2016 5:04 PM
Comment #410188
don’t think false claims of ‘white supremacists’ will do the same?

What excatly is fake about this?

it was patriotic for leftists to hate the country

It is never patriotic to hate the country. Protesting a war is not hating a country.

you are equating love of country to racism
How is this possibly an act of love? Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 5:09 PM
Comment #410189

Warren and others doing a Google search to prove that there are people in our country who do despicable things is not helpful.

One-up-man-ship of singular outrages proves nothing on a national basis or population.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 5:17 PM
Comment #410190

The issue is what I raised in my initial comment. Crime has been a part of the human experience since the dawn of history. While we wish it weren’t so, crime is a normal part of human civilization. No matter how hard we try, there will still be murders, thieves and vandals.

What isn’t normal is the sort of racialized hate crimes that have spiked in the era of Trump. This is an aberration. Women who felt comfortable walking down the street in their hijab a month ago now fear for their lives. Hispanic American citizens are now have their right to live in this country questioned. THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

These events violate taboos that this country forged half a century ago during the civil rights movement. As Royal Flush has correctly observed, history is riddled with taboos that ceased to be once a majority of citizens condoned the taboo behavior. As American citizens, we have an obligation to stand together and stand firm and demand that racist speech will never be normalized.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 5:35 PM
Comment #410191

*having their right* not have their right

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 5:37 PM
Comment #410194

Warren, perhaps you can explain to us why so many college’s will not allow conservative speakers on their campus’s.

Certainly “taboo” doesn’t explain it. Hatred of opposing political views is my guess.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 5:48 PM
Comment #410195

It is wrong for a university to bar conservatives from coming to speak and share their views, but bringing this up now is just a means to distract from the real and pressing issue posed by the rash of hate-crimes emanating from the alt-right.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 6:12 PM
Comment #410196

No distraction Warren. Can you not understand the political motivation behind hate on the street and hate on the campus?

Surely you don’t believe that students are some how better at acceptance of political differences; and less likely to hate, than the general public.

Do you have facts to support your contention of “a rash of hate-crimes emanating from the alt-right” as being any different than all hate crimes?

I have written before that I don’t distinguish between “hate” crimes and “love” crimes. Same end result.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 6:23 PM
Comment #410197
some how better at acceptance of political differences; and less likely to hate, than the general public.

No, they aren’t. But that’s not the point.

“a rash of hate-crimes emanating from the alt-right” as being any different than all hate crimes?
Yes, the difference is twofold. The frequency is greater. And the second is the fear in the Hispanic American and American Muslim communities that has been engendered. By unanimously condemning the recent acts and universally shaming the alt-right perpetrators as racist losers, we can restore confidence in America’s pluralism.
Same end result.

Is a threat to kill an important witness at an upcoming trial any different than a threat to kill an arbitrary citizen?

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 6:53 PM
Comment #410198

Warren

“Yes, but if people like you are unwilling to call people racist for engaging in racist behavior or writing racist things, then the power behind the word “racist” becomes purely hypothetical. A weapon that people refuse to use is as impotent as no weapon at all.”

Indeed, IF they are doing that. Again, if you judge similar behaviors differently just because of race, you are racist. If not, you are not.

The left is destroying some of the sting of racism by over expanding the term. Opposing Barack Obama or opposing programs generally favored by blacks in NOT racist.

Re emails – we don’t even know where they came from. Maybe it is a single weirdo. Maybe it is a Clinton supporters trying to make Trump look bad. Recall the Jackie rape allegations. Not everything is true.

Re white privilege. – it is a stupid and simplistic concept thought up by pin-headed academics not intelligent enough to get job outside the grievance industry. I put it on the same level as “spectral evidence.”

It does not make me feel guilty. It just makes me feel sad that so many people waste their time studying that kind of thing. I bet they failed out of math and could not get into STEM or business.

Phx8

Trump has some strange supporters. Hillary courted racists like BLM and accept the support of Al Sharpton. If we want to have “racist free” defined by supporters candidate, I think we would need to go with Gary Johnson.

Re your story about your friend. I have probably told you the story about my son being attacked by a group of at least six black thugs. They attacked him from behind and kicked him in the face until he was convulsing and then unconscious. They did not rob him or even speak to him. We all have stories. Mine is worse than yours, so don’t start. Should I blame Obama? I did not.

Phx8 & Warren et al

Re Germany. There is almost nothing similar between the U.S. today and Germany between the wars. Hitler did not rise to power because he promised hate. That was one part. He rose to power based on the general destruction of society. Recall that Germany lost a major war. It lost its status as a power. It was saddled with high reparations. Part of its territory was occupied. It lost significant territories. It has fought off a communist insurgency. And there was a Great Depression going on.

The Nazis were an organized party, not a few guys out there bothering individuals. Nazis were also socialists who used the power of government.

In the U.S. there really is no Nazi party, the KKK is a few weirdoes. There just is nothing there.

Re concentration camps – they were created out of the wartime. The first people in Auschwitz were Polish intellectuals and priests. Have you guy ever visited any of these places and studied them? Not to “pull rank” but I will. I have been to Auschwitz five separate times. I spoke to survivors of these camps as well as some of those who suffered in Soviet Gulags. It annoys me when people talk out of the asses about concentration camps. You are lacking perspective on these things.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 17, 2016 7:12 PM
Comment #410199

Warren, do you consider the source of your link to be fair and balanced? I certainly don’t.

I readily condemn all acts of violence, not just those perpetrated by race hatred or by some group you currently credit with increases in violence.

You write of fear in some communities. How about the community fear of protestors taking over their streets, the fear of going out at night when protestors are marching? The fear of being identified as a Trump supporter on some of our college campus’s?

How about the fear of going into a black neighborhood with an anti-Obama bumper sticker?

I condemn those who foster fear in others. Our national media fosters fear. Our politicians foster fear. Our colleges and universities foster fear. Our places of worship foster fear. Parents foster fear in their children. Children foster fear in each other.

I had the advantage of growing up in the 40’s and 50’s Warren. We feared the bomb. We feared polio. We feared flunking in school. We feared the community reporting our bad behavior to our parents.

The Left is fond of their mantra…”restore confidence in America’s pluralism.” If I asked a dozen people on the street what that means to them I would probably get at least ten blank stares. The other two would disagree on the meaning. On a college campus I would get twelve different answers.

Diversity is not all Warren cracks it up to be. There are many countries in the world with no diversity at all. Goodness…how do they survive.

You ask a question about the differences in two cases of murder. Both victims would be dead, the end result is the same.

How do you feel about American citizens murdered by illegals? No difference for the one murdered, but I maintain that the murder would not have happened if the illegal was stopped at the border.

In Texas we have the death penalty for heinous crimes. It’s a damn shame we can’t execute some of these non-human murderers multiple times.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 17, 2016 7:32 PM
Comment #410200
Re emails – we don’t even know where they came from. Maybe it is a single weirdo. Maybe it is a Clinton supporters trying to make Trump look bad. Recall the Jackie rape allegations. Not everything is true.

I’ve let this assertion slip by unchallenged because I assumed you understood what was happening, but apparent you don’t. The issue is more than just emails. People are having their property vandalized and they are being harassed in person and in a variety of social platforms. To assert that it is a false flag operation or all made up is simply absurd. The vast quantity of reports means either would imply a conspiracy of massive proportions. Lastly, it is equally ridiculous to allege that it is a “single weirdo”. Why is it so hard to just call a spade a spade?

Re white privilege. – it is a stupid and simplistic concept thought up by pin-headed academics not intelligent enough to get job outside the grievance industry. I put it on the same level as “spectral evidence.”

If you insist…

For instance, my mother is roughly the same age as you, but unlike you she has three grandparents who graduated from college. Clearly, her childhood was privileged in various ways that yours was not. On the other hand, she was a woman, which means she was discouraged from pursuing a career in biology despite earning a 5 in AP biology in high school. Instead, she majored in Art just like her mother and grandmother. In that respect, as a man, you had privileges that my mother did not posses. Now, in the 1970s there wasn’t any formal rule that forbade my mom from studying biology in High School. Indeed many of her more confident peers did exactly that. However, my mother was not the rebellious type. The paucity of female role models studying biology meant that she didn’t even consider pursuing such a degree.

Today, the situation is different. As you are well aware, women outnumber men at many levels of higher education. But the effects of cultural mores from back then still reverberate as they have impacted the career trajectories of many people who are still in the labor force.

Not to “pull rank” but I will. I have been to Auschwitz five separate times. I spoke to survivors of these camps as well as some of those who suffered in Soviet Gulags. It annoys me when people talk out of the asses about concentration camps. You are lacking perspective on these things.

My mother’s family fled Holland just a few months before Germany invaded. My great-aunts are still alive (aged 97 & 99). Pretty much everyone they knew in Holland perished in the Holocaust. I have a close relationship with both of them and when they tell me things remind them of the 30s, I believe them.

Things aren’t exactly the same as back then, but as the saying goes, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I do not think we are on the road to fascism or another Holocaust, but I do think the rise of the Alt-Right is a very disturbing development and I am astonished that their appearance is not spawning clear condemnation from your side of the aisle. Instead of creating a united front to confront the NSDAP, it seems the conservatives were more interested in winning rhetorical battles against the SPD.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 8:18 PM
Comment #410201
I readily condemn all acts of violence, not just those perpetrated by race hatred or by some group you currently credit with increases in violence.

This is the problem. Racially motivated violence needs to be a much greater concern than ordinary violence. Ordinary violence never results in genocide; racially motivated violence sometimes does. That is the difference.

If you lived in Germany in 1933, would you give the Reichstag arson equal concern to NAZI anti-semitic acts?

do you consider the source of your link to be fair and balanced? I certainly don’t.

Well, there’s the typical conservative response. Quibble with the source when you don’t like the facts.

You write of fear in some communities. How about the community fear of protestors taking over their streets, the fear of going out at night when protestors are marching? The fear of being identified as a Trump supporter on some of our college campus’s?

There is no community fear of protesters because the demonstrations have been mostly peaceful. There’s no fear of being identified as a Trump supporter on a college campus (I know a few and believe me, they aren’t scared to say it).

I had the advantage of growing up in the 40’s and 50’s Warren. We feared the bomb. We feared polio. We feared flunking in school. We feared the community reporting our bad behavior to our parents.
Every generation has its fear. The bomb is no less scary today than it was 70 years ago. We cured polio but we discovered AIDS. Flunking out of school is more scary today given that fewer jobs can be had today without a college degree. The more things change, the more they stay the same. I don’t smoke pot because I know my parents would disown me if they ever found out.
Diversity is not all Warren cracks it up to be. There are many countries in the world with no diversity at all. Goodness…how do they survive.
Does American Exceptionalism mean nothing to you? We can survive without diversity, but we will never thrive. Pluralism is why this is the greatest country to exist in all of history.
You ask a question about the differences in two cases of murder. Both victims would be dead, the end result is the same.
So, why does the law treat them differently? (for the record, I spoke of a murder threat, not murder itself)
How do you feel about American citizens murdered by illegals?
The impact of a murders committed by an illegal immigrant is no different than the impact of a murder committed by a legal resident. So, I feel indifferent between the two. Every murder is a tragedy and any perpetrator ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But it is equally horrendous no matter the immigration status of the murderer.
but I maintain that the murder would not have happened if the illegal was stopped at the border.
I am reminded of times I used to play Mahjong with my friends. Sometimes, I drew from the “wrong” end of the wall and my friends would absolutely freak out. But it made no sense. I reasoned that the probability of drawing any particular tile was no different no matter which end of the wall I drew from. They reasoned that by disturbing the order of the randomly arranged face down tiles, I somehow impacted their ability to win or lose. But I did nothing of the sort.

You see, stopping illegal immigrants at the border may have prevented one murderer from coming to this country, but it would also prevent many more non-murderers from coming to this country. What matters is whether or not illegal immigrants commit murder at a higher rate than native born Americans. It turns out, immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than native born Americans. So, by halting illegal immigration, you end up increasing the murder rate.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 9:06 PM
Comment #410202

Warren

When they are all done investigating all those incidents, many of them will fall by the wayside. Beyond that, we have a country of more than 300 million. We expect some trouble.

Violence and property damage are crimes. We agree that these things should be investigated and the perps punished. The extension of crimes to those of word and even thought is dangerous.

re your mother - sounds like she has an easier life than I did. That money privilege trumped my male one. I have female colleagues my age that got MBAs and went into the FS. When I came in, they were actively recruiting women and minorities. In some years, white males had to score 5 points higher to pass. Yes, I do not buy that privelge.

And if I do have the privelge, why can’t I use it to silence those clowns bothering me.

Re racially motivated violence - the two biggest killers of all time were Stalin and Mao. They killed for class reasons. So maybe criticizing the 1% is as dangerous.

And even Hitler did not kill only for racial reasons.

re fear of protestors. Go to YouTube and search for something like “attacks on Trump supporters.” I would be afraid to go near a BLM rally it is a real fear, as real as all those guys who fear the moribund KKK.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 17, 2016 9:23 PM
Comment #410203

Leftist protests tend to be more violent. Consider all the burning and robbing we see. Leftist protests are not peaceful as those of the Tea Party.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 17, 2016 9:27 PM
Comment #410209
sounds like she has an easier life than I did. That money privilege trumped my male one.

This is not the appropriate treatment. You don’t compare privilege and say one person is more privileged than another because it is impossible to quantify their impacts because life is one big complex system. All we can say is that my mother benefited from some privileges and you benefitted from other ones. The point of the concept is to understand that people don’t start from the same place even when nature and nurture are removed from the equation. Equality of opportunity is an ideal that will never be reached because the world is imperfect.

The most important takeaway is that privilege is nearly always invisible to the non-target group. Only the target group is constantly reminded of the disparity. The easiest example of this is with handedness. I happen to be right-handed and throughout my life I’ve never had to think much about it. When I need to buy a pair of scissors, I just go out and buy a pair. When I arrive in a classroom, I sit in pretty much any seat I want. My father, on the other hand, is left-handed. For many purchases, he needs to take the time to figure out whether or not he can use his left hand to operate the product comfortably. It’s not the end of the world, but it is a constant reminder that the world is not built with him in mind.

When I came in, they were actively recruiting women and minorities. In some years, white males had to score 5 points higher to pass. Yes, I do not buy that privelge.

Affirmative Action is a separate issue. Anyone who justifies affirmative action solely due to the existence of privilege is worthy of derision.

re fear of protestors. Go to YouTube and search for something like “attacks on Trump supporters.” I would be afraid to go near a BLM rally it is a real fear, as real as all those guys who fear the moribund KKK.

The point is that you have to actually go to the rally to feel the “fear”. You aren’t scared just to leave the house. The “threat” is localized.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 17, 2016 10:39 PM
Comment #410210

“You don’t compare privilege and say one person is more privileged than another because it is impossible to quantify their impacts because life is one big complex system.”

Exactly. That is the reason the idea of “white privilege” is so silly. We all have a portfolio of advantages and problems. In different situations, different combinations are useful.

The other reason I dislike the idea of privelge is because it makes whiners out of everybody and harms them.

My oft repeated story is how my father told me not to bother with the FS because that was “only for rich kids.” He believed it. He was wrong, but he would have been right had I believed him. I can imagine a black father telling his kid something similar. He is wrong too, but if we believe him, he is right.

Re affirmative action - all my professional life, places I wanted to be have worked to recruit women and minorities. It has not been an advantage to be a white male. I have been denied assignments and promotions because of my race and gender. I know this (rather than just suspect) because I have sometimes been told directly that they were looking for a woman or minority. Once I was actually assigned and they broke it because they preferred a woman.

People who are just scared to leave the house are just paranoid. The incidents of violence like this are so small as to be insignificant. Of course, a black young man might fear homicide from other black young men. That is a real risk, but Trump did not do that.

Posted by: Christine & John at November 17, 2016 11:09 PM
Comment #410218
My oft repeated story is how my father told me not to bother with the FS because that was “only for rich kids.” He believed it. He was wrong, but he would have been right had I believed him. I can imagine a black father telling his kid something similar. He is wrong too, but if we believe him, he is right.

Your father’s sentiment is one of the biggest reasons for continued racial disparities. It is much worse when there are no role models to point to. When you were a young man, you could easily open a book or newspaper and see people who looked like you doing amazing things with their lives (such as joining the FS). Now consider if you were a woman or Black and your father had told you the same thing. If you searched hard enough, maybe you could find a couple of examples, but it would be quite difficult.

Consider again the case with my mother. Nobody even had to tell her she couldn’t become a biologist. It was just part of the culture of the time. She wasn’t even aware of other accomplished female scientists like Rosalind Franklin. As far as she could tell, the only path for her was to search for a husband while studying art.

Here are some questions to consider. Imagine how Obama’s daughters’ answers might be different than yours:

1. When you do well in a certain situation, do people often condition their compliments in racial terms?

2. Did your ancestors come to the US voluntarily?

3. If you ask to speak with the person in charge at a business, how likely are you to speak with someone of your own race?

4. When you learn history, are most of the characters people who share your race?

5. When you go shopping, are you confident store security will not harass you on account of your race?

6. When traveling on a business trip, do clients ever confuse your subordinate for the person in charge due to your respective skin colors?

7. When you pay for something, can you rely on your skin color to assure the recipient that the method of payment is reliable?

8. When you are pulled over by a cop, are you always confident that you were not profiled on the basis of your race?

9. Do people ever suspect that you are a beneficiary of affirmative action who would otherwise be unqualified for your job?

it makes whiners out of everybody and harms them
That is the fault of people who draw the wrong conclusions from the concept of White Privilege. Properly understood, knowing about privilege should not effect anything.
Re affirmative action - all my professional life, places I wanted to be have worked to recruit women and minorities. It has not been an advantage to be a white male. I have been denied assignments and promotions because of my race and gender. I know this (rather than just suspect) because I have sometimes been told directly that they were looking for a woman or minority. Once I was actually assigned and they broke it because they preferred a woman.
Yes, I am well aware that affirmative action gives women and minorities easier paths to success (that is the entire point). Now, whether or not the existence of White Privilege (or Black privilege for that matter) justifies affirmative action programs is a whole other can of worms. Sometimes it does, but oftentimes it doesn’t. Some racial privileges will never go away no matter how hard we try.
People who are just scared to leave the house are just paranoid
The rash of incidents are real, not paranoia induced hallucinations. People wearing hijabs have been threatened and attacked in unprecedented numbers. People of Hispanic ancestry have been harassed likewise. THIS IS NOT NORMAL! Posted by: Warren Porter at November 18, 2016 9:05 AM
Comment #410220

Warren,
“What excatly is fake about this?”

The left’s faux concern about people being unjustly threatened and attack simply for their beliefs.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/man-severely-beaten-by-mob-shouting-you-voted-trump-6248405/

I can go toe to toe with you on this, Warren. That the left chooses to defend, ignore and excuse these incidents, does not mean they do not exist.
From racist rhetoric and actions when Obama first came onto the scene and throughout both his terms, to blacks calling for a race war. But have you ever heard myself or Republican leaders claiming that there was some massive violent anti-white movement about to take over the country? No.

“It is never patriotic to hate the country. Protesting a war is not hating a country.”

Desecrating the American flag while calling for socialism, is. As is removing our flag and replacing it with the flag of Mexico. As is protesting by burning the American and carrying the Soviet and Mexican flags while insulting our country, its government, and its people.

“How is this possibly an act of love?”

Who is claiming that it is? And why do you assume and promote that this is the rule, rather than the very rare exception?

Posted by: kctim at November 18, 2016 10:04 AM
Comment #410235
I can go toe to toe with you on this, Warren. That the left chooses to defend, ignore and excuse these incidents, does not mean they do not exist.

This fight began as a result of an automobile collision, not because of politics. Road rage isn’t OK, but this is a normal occurrence. The man was attacked for what he did, not for who he was. That doesn’t make it right and it is good to hear the the police are investigating the case under proper procedures. But there is no grander intimidation at play. A Trump supporter can feel just as safe strolling through a neighborhood like that today as he did last month.

What I don’t understand is why this one dubious incident gets plastered everywhere as if it excuses the spike in racially intimidating threats and crimes.

From racist rhetoric and actions when Obama first came onto the scene and throughout both his terms, to blacks calling for a race war. But have you ever heard myself or Republican leaders claiming that there was some massive violent anti-white movement about to take over the country? No.
Black nationalism never became widespread under Obama. There is no comparison.
Desecrating the American flag while calling for socialism, is. As is removing our flag and replacing it with the flag of Mexico. As is protesting by burning the American and carrying the Soviet and Mexican flags while insulting our country, its government, and its people.

These sorts of actions were never called patriotic by mainstream Leftists.

Who is claiming that it is

You did. You said, “But now you are equating love of country to racism?”

The only thing I have equated to racism have been brutal attacks on American women wearing hijabs and threatening messages sent to Hispanics and other people of color. So, you have dismissed these incidents as nothing other than “love of country”.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 18, 2016 1:10 PM
Comment #410243

Warren complains; “Well, there’s the typical conservative response. Quibble with the source when you don’t like the facts.”

Facts? Read the article again and you will find much fudging of “facts”.

Warren’s rant on diversity above means little as it continues unabated in America. I wonder why he wrote we need to ”restore confidence in America’s pluralism.” Who has lost confidence?

Warren chooses which fear is real. Fear on the Right is imaginary. Fear on the Left is palpable.

Warren asks; “So, why does the law treat them (crime vs hate crime) differently? Hey…that is my question Warren. Your answer please.

Please notice that when Warren considers murder committed by an illegal in this country he refers to the “community impact”. The family of the victim no doubt feels it was avoidable.

Now please try to follow his logic. Illegals commit fewer murders than citizens. Thus, we are better off with more illegals. Warren refuses to acknowledge the obvious. No illegals, no murders committed by illegals. Will Warren argue that…OH, Well, a few murders are acceptable if we have more illegals coming here. If so Warren, please place your family first in the risk line?

Warren’s logic is indicative of the thinking of many on the Left. Law and Order is good…sometimes!


Posted by: Royal Flush at November 18, 2016 2:32 PM
Comment #410245

Reading Warren’s comments on “white privilege” is revealing. He appears to be saddened by not being born a poor minority. I can almost feel Warren’s guilt.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 18, 2016 2:59 PM
Comment #410253
Facts? Read the article again and you will find much fudging of “facts”.

Racialized threats and violence are greater in the Age of Trump. That is a fact. I am glad Donald Trump issued an unambiguous condemnation of the things that were done in his name. I am saddened that Watchblog conservatives will not follow his lead.

Who has lost confidence?

The legal Hispanic immigrant who knows his history has lost confidence. The woman afraid to wear her hijab in public has lost confidence. The thousands who demonstrate in the streets against Trump have lost their confidence.

Warren chooses which fear is real. Fear on the Right is imaginary. Fear on the Left is palpable.
Sorry, but it isn’t for me to decide. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore what your lying eyes tell you for only so long.
Warren asks; “So, why does the law treat them (crime vs hate crime) differently? Hey…that is my question Warren. Your answer please.
Your parenthetical does not reflect my words. For your benefit, here is my original statement:

“Is a threat to kill an important witness at an upcoming trial any different than a threat to kill an arbitrary citizen?”

Clearly, I was talking about witness intimidation, NOT hate crimes.

Now please try to follow his logic. Illegals commit fewer murders than citizens. Thus, we are better off with more illegals. Warren refuses to acknowledge the obvious. No illegals, no murders committed by illegals. Will Warren argue that…OH, Well, a few murders are acceptable if we have more illegals coming here. If so Warren, please place your family first in the risk line?

If there were no people, there would be no murder. But that is no justification for getting rid of people. Instead, we accept the fact that murder is an inevitable part of human life. We do the very best we can to minimize the rate of its occurrence, but never do we actually eliminate it completely.

Regarding: “No illegals, no murders by illegals”; this position is completely myopic because there would still be murders committed by legal Americans. And the murder rate would be higher, which means the chance that you or I are killed would be greater. When we send the illegals back home, are you going to volunteer you or your family for the risk line?

He appears to be saddened by not being born a poor minority. I can almost feel Warren’s guilt.
You might want to double check your empathic abilities because I am proud of my heritage. I had the opportunity to visit Israel for the first time in my life last summer and I was totally blown away by how my fellow Jews have made that land thrive after centuries of neglect and misuse. Likewise, I am impressed how my own family not only barely escaped total extinction 70 years ago, but also forged new prosperous lives in their newly adopted nation. I am honored to carry that legacy and it motivates me to contribute the best of my mind and talents to the country. Posted by: Warren Porter at November 18, 2016 4:34 PM
Comment #410255

If my comments qualify as myopic, Warren’s certainly qualify as blind.

Just imagine the blind and moronic comment that claims; even though there would be no murders by illegals, if there were no illegals, it’s better to have illegals here because those that are here commit fewer murders. Hmmm, guess those murders don’t count except for statistics.

Warren claims there are fewer murders committed by illegals in our country, and thus, it is good to have more of them in the mix to make our murder numbers look better. Ah, yes…that will warm a liberal heart.

I guess only a graduate student at a prestige university is capable of writing such brilliance.

I could make a similar argument that persons in prison don’t commit as many crimes as those not in prison.

Sorry Warren, your writing does not reflect your proud heritage. You really shouldn’t feel guilty.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 18, 2016 5:21 PM
Comment #410284
If my comments qualify as myopic, Warren’s certainly qualify as blind.

YOU are the one who is arguing that one is safer in a country with a higher murder rate, not me.

You really shouldn’t feel guilty.
Guilty for what?

By the way, you failed to comment on my question:

Is a threat to kill an important witness at an upcoming trial any different than a threat to kill an arbitrary citizen?
Posted by: Warren Porter at November 18, 2016 10:58 PM
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