The Democrat Civil War Is Just Starting

You would think from reading the headlines at Politico that Trump’s transition team is already a smoldering heap beset by seething resentments and deep divisions. Because they don’t have a detailed healthcare plan all lined up. Today. Right Now. Perhaps the earnest and rather partisan progressives at Politico should make like their colleagues at The Hill and admit that that civil war that is now emerging is happening not in Trump’s team, but in their beloved Democratic Party.

One can only blame Director Comey for so long before it wears thin, especially when your own party is the real rubble, with smoke still rising from it's ash heap. As has been pointed out these last few days, the Democratic leadership is far from young. While Trump's age is continually brought up, if one looks at the bulk of the Democratic leadership, you see a whole host of politicians that are near retirement age. That means attitude as much as what year your birthday happens to be.

And midterm elections are less than 2 years away, which means a strategy and ground-level tactics should already have been mostly put in place. But first they have to decide what kind of party the Democratic Party will be in the coming years. That means, for example, deciding who to head the DNC. After Brazile is done.

Howard Dean has unselfishly offered himself. And Bernie Sanders has apparently nominated Minnesota's Rep. Keith Ellison. Muslim and a member of the Progressive Caucus. And while the old warhorses can blame Sanders for the defeat - a ridiculous charge given how completely he supported Hillary's campaign once the primaries were over - the energy as well as all those millennials are with the Vermont Senator. Remember, Sanderistas were even more angry with Wall Street than many of Trump's supporters. And it was more likely that the somewhat older Trump supporters were amongst those hardest hit by the financial crisis and its devastating impact on home ownership.

Hollywood? Did Katy Perry and her fabulous robe/gown help Hillary? Did Jay Z and Beyonce's fans actually help the GOTV for the Democrats? And the Hollywood liberal A-list ads, berating voters. Did Sander's supporters actually need the entertainment industry's seal of approval to know that their cause was one they were passionate about?

Identity politics is unfortunately too deeply buried in the marrow of progressive and liberal culture. But it is clearly not shared as widely as many had thought. Yes, identity politics is shared even by those claiming conservative credentials - like many members of the foreign policy and intel establishment who turned against Trump mostly because of his incorrect speech. But they failed to realize - or didn't care - that their views are not shared by millions and millions of voters.

So as the Democratic Party divides and battles over how to move forward, whence the elites in Wall Street and Hollywood? And Silicon Valley? Has their power - if not their wealth - been curtailed substantially going forward? Within the very Democratic Party that is. If the Democratic Party becomes Sanderized, don't expect H1-B visas, made to order for the tech industry, to be on the party's agenda.

Wall Street may not be quite as displeased with Trump's victory as they would like the world to think. But the rules of the financial world will change. And the reliance on enormous compliance departments as a very effective non-tarrif barrier to new entrants in financial services may be coming to an end. But don't count Wall Street out. While Trump may not owe them anything, members of Congress - of both parties - certainly do. And if an even more progressive Democratic Party emerges and cuts ties with Wall Street, there will always be the GOP members of Congress.

Hollywood may have a problem with Sanders-style new Democrats as well. Because the current status quo elites linked opposition to free trade with accusations of racism, any pushback against globalization and trade by newly empowered Bernie supporters will have to face charges of discrimination. And then what does Hollywood do?

Yes, the GOP has changed, perhaps forever. But a similar fate also awaits the Democrats. And their civil war is just starting.

Posted by Keeley at November 14, 2016 6:58 PM
Comments
Comment #410064

Good read Keeley, thanks.

I would like the opinion of my Democrat Pals.

In your opinion, will the Democrat Party lean more Leftward, or more to the middle?

Do you have a favorite as chairman of the DNC?

What role should the Clinton’s have in the Party?

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 14, 2016 7:14 PM
Comment #410066

Bernie Sanders said; “”What he (Trump) did is tap the angst and anger and hurt and pain that millions of working-class people are feeling,”

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 14, 2016 7:54 PM
Comment #410070

Can’t you get that opinion on the other side?

There is something to be said for waiting to see what Trump is going to do. After all, he did run as an outsider. Why are we now expecting him to act like he knows how the inside works? Why should he care what a special interest group thinks if it doesn’t pertain to the functions of the office?

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 14, 2016 9:26 PM
Comment #410074

What an odd article. The Democrats won the popular vote by at least one and maybe 2 percent, nearing the 50% mark. Their senators won more votes and their Representatives won more votes. More legislatures flipped to Democratic control than GOP. The set-up of our branches of government have been damaged, in part because of the electoral college, but more importantly, by gerrymandering in the House. While the Senate was always supposed to protect the interest of states- especially smaller ones- the House was always intended to reflect the popular vote. Clearly, it does not.

As for future leaders, Elizabeth Warren immediately comes to mind. In general, I would expect the party to move slightly to the left, but not much. The Democratic party is the party of inclusion, representing many groups and interests. The GOP is the party of identity politics, in particular, white identity.

RF,
You quote: “What he (Trump) did is tap the angst and anger and hurt and pain that millions of working-class people are feeling.”

True, but it leaves out where those people placed the blame: on immigrants and people of color. The biggest Trump majorities were in counties with 97% or more white populations. Those voters failed to understand the implications of the Trump message- the racism and bigotry- because they did not know anyone who belonged to a minority in the first place.

So the GOP formula for plutocracy worked. They advanced an agenda blaming immigrants and minorities and foreigners for problems, and insisted the solutions were to act on behalf of the richest one percent, because otherwise anything those working class whites did would only help the blacks and Hispanics and so on.

Posted by: phx8 at November 14, 2016 11:11 PM
Comment #410077

My party may be somewhat defeated, but I think it will fare better in the long-term than the GOP. They can’t even gain the oval office without getting into a fight with each other.

The problem for the GOP is that it represents a desperate coalition between the insurgent Tea Party Republicans and the more cautious, more experience establishment faction, which has already headed down the road the Tea Party is demanding of it, and hesitates to retrace those steps.

If Trump doesn’t fulfill enough of his promises, he loses supporters. If he fulfills too many, he confirms the worse fears of both Democrats and Republicans. In this, he embodies the contradiction that is destroying the party, between ill-informed wish fulfillment and insincere, dishonest encouragement of that fantasizing that covers for merely moderate policies.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at November 14, 2016 11:46 PM
Comment #410080

You guys keep blaming our form of government, gerrymandering, racism and bigotry, and you might just be able to lose more elections that you should have won.

Since it’s been working out so well for you lately, please don’t forget to keep insulting the intelligence of everybody who disagree’s with you.

Posted by: kctim at November 15, 2016 10:32 AM
Comment #410083

IMHO when the smoke clears the dems will realize several things. First of all they try to deal with facts, it is a waste of time to deal with facts anymore, and the Trumpsters do not recognize facts. They simply want their half truths to be dealt with.

As an example the working class have had their jobs taken by immigrants both legal and illegal causing wages to be driven down considerably. The truth is Mexicans have the advantage because they move here twelve, fifteen to a house work, share cars no insurance, and then send dollars home.

This summer I watched 5 houses being built behind me. The site, concrete, rough framing, roofing, stucco, finish carpentry, fencing…. well everything but plumbing and electrical were done by Hispanics acting as the general contractor. No signs on their trucks as to the company name. Legal or illegal or some combination I don’t know. But that is why the working class guy and his wife in their 30’s or early 40’s voted for Trump. He acknowledged this fact for them.

While I agree inclusion is the goal this isn’t the way to achieve it. The dems did nothing Trump talked about it. Yes Trump did bring over immigrants to get cheaper rates on his building projects but facts are irrelevant. Trump not any of the other repubs talked about it. The 1% threw a bone to the working class and they latched on to the votes. Will Trump do something about it? Doubt it, other than send a few caught trafficking or killing back.

The point is the dems did nothing but kow tow to the Hispanics who want open borders.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 15, 2016 12:26 PM
Comment #410084

So, “the working class have had their jobs taken by immigrants both legal and illegal causing wages to be driven down considerably.” Trump acknowledged that fact and that is why “the working class guy and his wife in their 30’s or early 40’s voted for Trump.” But yet “Trumpsters do not recognize facts?”

Hillary just proved that deflecting to Trump in hopes of ignoring the concerns and failures of dems doesn’t work, J2.

Posted by: kctim at November 15, 2016 12:50 PM
Comment #410085
You guys keep blaming our form of government, gerrymandering, racism and bigotry, and you might just be able to lose more elections that you should have won.

Not the form of government the buying of government. Gerrymandering and voter suppression are big issues that need to be dealt with. Racism and bigotry are issues as well they do need to be defined however IMHO. Denying such is foolish kctim. Look around you, the black veteran at Chili’s is one small example. Dems are facing a tough fight because inclusion of races and s*x is a frightening thing that hasn’t been done before. It is an uphill battle.

You say the dems should have won this one but I disagree. Hillary went negative and she just isn’t good at that when compared to Trump. She shot herself in the foot. She pandered to the base and paid the price. When “debating” she may have won but the “debates” were more insulting and shouting matches than debates. Her economic plan was ignored because she was to busy trying to manipulate the manipulator.

Since it’s been working out so well for you lately, please don’t forget to keep insulting the intelligence of everybody who disagree’s with you.

I disagree kctim. Education is a good thing. Many believe Trump will do what he promised, wanna bet on it. I say within 4 years he will have a worse record at keeping campaign promises that Obama by twofold. Yet many voted believing he would keep his promises. Critical thinking skills are short in this country, as are the ability to reason and think for one’s self. Trumpsters will prove this over the next 4 years, but if you are in a hurry… Faux news.

Who believes Trump is gonna jail Clinton, create millions of jobs while rebuilding infrastructure, cutting taxes, cutting the national debt and building the wall at Mexico’s expense. NO we need critical thinkers to vote.

I listen daily to two guys daily, both die hard Faux news types. They cannot reason , hell I’m not sure they realize the government existed before Obama, they believe anything and everything without question, if it comes from Faux news.

Meanwhile the Koch Bros and their ilk run the country and you smokescreen for them with this strawman. Meanwhile we get our first real taste of fascism/nationalism as Trump takes office and the alt right Bannon is his brain.

So on to another issue, Do you think this election kinda shows us how Hitler came to power in the ‘30’s? Bashing of immigrants, the disabled, and religious groups. Nationalism and the promise to make Germany…er…. America great again. I mean the extreme right, to include the American Nazi Party and the KKK, are besides themselves after this win. They have supported him from the first wall comment after all.

Hitler promised jobs as did Trump, and actually accomplished it by preventing jews from working and keeping women home from work as well. Just so many similarities yet y’all laugh at me.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 15, 2016 1:03 PM
Comment #410088

J2,
Today’s talking-points are about how bad the electoral college is. We are a Constitutional Republic and getting rid of that would make us a majority rules democracy.

Both sides are guilty of gerrymandering.
Other than a few valid examples here and there, voter suppression is nothing more than an excuse.

Racism and bigotry ARE already defined, J2. They are only said to now be ‘big issues’ is because their definitions have been perverted to include disagreement with policy.
Chili’s is a private business and it’s employees are individuals.

“Dems are facing a tough fight because inclusion of races and s*x is a frightening thing that hasn’t been done before. It is an uphill battle.”

Not true. Dems are facing a tough fight because they have separated us into groups and are demonizing to marginalize one group in particular.

“You say the dems should have won this one but I disagree.”

Can’t say you are wrong my friend. IMO, Hillary would have won if she hadn’t jump fully on board the progressive crazy train. Attacking the 2nd Amendment, supporting the ACA despite it failing, amnesty, continuing open borders, disregard for religion, class warfare…all these positions created the perfect storm.

“I disagree kctim. Education is a good thing.”

I didn’t state that it wasn’t. What I said was to keep insulting the intelligence of those who disagree with liberal policy.

“Yet many voted believing he would keep his promises.”

Na. I would say that they voted hoping that he would keep his promises and they will be happy if he at least tries to keep the ones that are possible to keep.

“NO we need critical thinkers to vote.”

Sadly, what you actually mean is that you want only people who think like you to vote.

“So on to another issue, Do you think this election kinda shows us how Hitler came to power in the ‘30’s?”

Not in the least.

We have an illegal alien problem and border security to deal with it is NOT bashing of immigrants.
The world has an islamic terrorist problem and putting our own best interest over theirs is not bashing religious groups.
Mocking individuals is not bashing an entire group.
Patriotism and respect for our founding principles is not evil.
Every politician promises jobs.
Women are not going to lose their careers.

“Just so many similarities yet y’all laugh at me.”

Because for political gain, you refuse to put things in proper context.
The people of 1930s Germany were defeated, humiliated, abused, desperate and lost. Their government was destroyed and they did not have the checks and balances they needed.
The people you hate enough to label ‘brownshirts’ want nothing more than a way to support their families and for government to stop infringing on their individual rights.

You are lucky J2.
When a full blown socialist government gets control, those on the right are on their own. But IF a fascist dictator were to somehow actually get in control, the left would have the vast majority of those on the right fighting with them.

Posted by: kctim at November 15, 2016 2:20 PM
Comment #410091

phx8 disagrees with the meaning of the Bernie Sanders quote I provided. Such a shame that even blunt language, by an almost Democrat presidential nominee, that doesn’t agree with some is ignored.

j2t2 writes; “Critical thinking skills are short in this country, as are the ability to reason and think for one’s self.”

I certainly agree with this comment as I have written much the same numerous times. I place much of the blame at the national level and hope the national Department of Education disappears. Banning Huckleberry Finn is merely a symptom of the ignorance of those leading our education departments.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 15, 2016 3:31 PM
Comment #410100

You could always teach them not to think for themselves by kicking them out of their home if they don’t vote the way you tell them to. Start out at an early age and yanking their security right out from under them if they vote the wrong way.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 15, 2016 8:11 PM
Comment #410101

The cognitive dissonance I’ve read on this site is appalling. Truly appalling.

One thing I had to point out…

the House was always intended to reflect the popular vote. Clearly, it does not.

Show me the one house race where the person who got the most votes didn’t win?

Just because more people voted for Hillary, because a huge percentage in a couple of states, doesn’t mean that the house should follow, not everyone votes straight ticket, FFS. Some people don’t vote for anything but president and others didn’t vote for president but voted for the other offices. You are stretching the realms of logic to try to make some inane point that the will of the people is being subverted. It’s why the Democrats keep losing and are imploding at a greater rate than the Republicans.

Please, keep it up, I’ll be glad when they are both gone and buried for good.

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 15, 2016 9:32 PM
Comment #410111

Rhinehold-
The whole point of the House is to represent the popular will. It can’t do that so well if all the people are stacked in districts to preserve the political power of a given party. You of all people should want redistricting reform, so that the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at November 16, 2016 8:31 AM
Comment #410115

Stephen, I’ve been a proponent of honest redistricting for decades. But it has nothing to do with the EC and trying to find an equivalency between the two.

And no matter how the districts are drawn or decided, someone is going to throw a fit about them. Because we’ve become a nation of precious flower whining spoiled children who can’t seem to recognize their own hypocrisy.

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 16, 2016 9:35 AM
Comment #410118
Other than a few valid examples here and there, voter suppression is nothing more than an excuse.

That is what many on the right would ask us to believe. Unfortunately it just isn’t true kctim, deny as you will but to much informatiopn is available to fall for the lies.

Not true. Dems are facing a tough fight because they have separated us into groups and are demonizing to marginalize one group in particular.

Well the facts just don’t bear you out kctim. We have been seperated into groups or tribes forever. To think conservatives have worked to bring us together is unbelievably foolish.

Sadly, what you actually mean is that you want only people who think like you to vote.

Sadly you are mistaken kctim. Although this may fit your narrative as you seek to dent the real world it just isn’t true. What I want is for people to actually be able to separate fact from fiction and vote based upon facts not myth or misinformation. You serve as an example with this myth you try to perpetuate.

The people of 1930s Germany were defeated, humiliated, abused, desperate and lost. Their government was destroyed and they did not have the checks and balances they needed.

Sounds like just a few degrees difference IMHO kctim. I realize after WWI the Germans were much worse off than we are today in America but after the glory years of the country that ended, for the most part, in the Reagan era….

Many working class men feel defeated, humiliated, abused desperate and lost as their jobs have went away and they are now either not working or working at some service sector low paying crap job. This has been going on since the 80’s and really hit stride with the GWB administration.

According to many Trump voters the government was destroyed and they did not have the checks and balances they needed.

So rising up out of the ashes the working class which has been disrespected for so long, as corporate America devalued labor and income inequality grew to depression level, decided to vote Trump into office. Based upon the same promises Hitler made to the German people.

See the problem we have seeing eye to eye on this one is your refusal to acknowledge the truth kctim. Fascism is a far right ideology. Not far left as you would have us believe. I know there is the name socialist in the Nazi Party but don’t let it confuse the issue. Just like Trump beat out establishment Repubs Hitler did the same with the same tools. Big lies and charisma, false promises and make Germany great again rhetoric.


Posted by: j2t2 at November 16, 2016 1:04 PM
Comment #410119
I certainly agree with this comment as I have written much the same numerous times.

Well it seems even va broken clock is right….


I place much of the blame at the national level and hope the national Department of Education disappears.

Of course you do. But then how can people educated before the existence of the Dept. of Education lack the same reason ability and critical thinking skills? I know many late 60’s to mid 70’s people who blindly follow what they hear on Faux news. IMHO it is the people not the government that we need to hold responsible. As an example anyone who thinks Obama is a Muslim needs to accept responsibility for their lack of critical thinking skills.


Banning Huckleberry Finn is merely a symptom of the ignorance of those leading our education departments.

But Finn was banned locally not nationally Royal. Not only that it has been banned at different times since it was published in this country in 1885. SO perhaps you need to use some critical thinking skills here Royal instead of blaming government for everything.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 16, 2016 1:14 PM
Comment #410122

“Fascism is a far right ideology. Not far left as you would have us believe. I know there is the name socialist in the Nazi Party but don’t let it confuse the issue.”

Here are the list of things the Nazi Party wanted to enact and why. Read it carefully, it reads like a melding of Trump and Sanders. Saying that fascism is a ‘right wing only philosophy’ just sets yourself up for ignoring when it happens on the left.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 16, 2016 2:26 PM
Comment #410125

j2t2 writes; “I know there is the name socialist in the Nazi Party but don’t let it confuse the issue.”

Yup…don’t believe your lying eyes. I wonder if j2t2 knows what USSR stood for too?

Does my Leftie Pal believe the “People’s Republic of China” is like our Republic?

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 16, 2016 3:11 PM
Comment #410129

Royal, j2t2 is conveniently forgetting all of the progressives in the 1920s that supported and championed the Nazi causes…

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 16, 2016 6:51 PM
Comment #410130

Remember, the founder of the Democratic Party, Andrew Jackson, was the pioneer of the extermination of the American Indian, an act that inspired the Nazi state regarding the Jews.

Specifically, retired Major in the U.S. Army Judge Advocate General Corps, Todd E. Pierce – who researched and reviewed the complete records of military commissions held during the Civil War and stored at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. as part of his assignment in the Office of Chief Defense Counsel, Office of Military Commissions – notes:

Stories of the American conquest of Native Americans with its solution of placing them on reservations were particularly popular in Germany early in the Twentieth Century including with Adolf Hitler.

Andrew Jackson: A man nicknamed “Indian killer” and “Sharp Knife” surely deserves the top spot on a list of worst U.S. Presidents. Andrew Jackson “was a forceful proponent of Indian removal,” according to PBS. Others have a less genteel way of describing the seventh president of the United States.

“Andrew Jackson was a wealthy slave owner and infamous Indian killer, gaining the nickname ‘Sharp Knife’ from the Cherokee,” writes Amargi on the website Unsettling America: Decolonization in Theory & Practice.

In his brutal military campaigns against Indians, Andrew Jackson recommended that troops systematically kill Indian women and children after massacres in order to complete the extermination. The Creeks lost 23 million acres of land in southern Georgia and central Alabama, paving the way for cotton plantation slavery. His frontier warfare and subsequent ‘negotiations’ opened up much of the southeast U.S. to settler colonialism.”

Jackson was not only a genocidal maniac against the Indigenous Peoples of the southwest, he was also racist against African peoples and a scofflaw who “violated nearly every standard of justice,” according to historian Bertram Wyatt-Brown. As a major general in 1818, Jackson invaded Spanish Florida chasing fugitive slaves who had escaped with the intent of returning them to their “owners,” and sparked the First Seminole War. During the conflict, Jackson captured two British men, Alexander George Arbuthnot and Robert C. Ambrister, who were living among the Seminoles. The Seminoles had resisted Jackson’s invasion of their land. One of the men had written about his support for the Seminoles’ land and treaty rights in letters found on a boat. Jackson used the “evidence” to accuse the men of “inciting” the Seminoles to “savage warfare” against the U.S. He convened a “special court martial” tribunal then had the men executed. “His actions were a study in flagrant disobedience, gross inequality and premeditated ruthlessness… he swept through Florida, crushed the Indians, executed Arbuthnot and Ambrister, and violated nearly every standard of justice,” Wyatt-Brown wrote.

In 1830, a year after he became president, Jackson signed a law that he had proposed – the Indian Removal Act – which legalized ethnic cleansing. Within seven years 46,000 indigenous people were removed from their homelands east of the Mississippi. Their removal gave 25 million acres of land “to white settlement and to slavery,” according to PBS. The area was home to the Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw and Seminole nations. In the Trail of Tears alone, 4,000 Cherokee people died of cold, hunger, and disease on their way to the western lands.

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 16, 2016 6:58 PM
Comment #410143

Didn’t the Ottoman Empire do the same thing in northern Africa? They tried to do the same thing in Europe, yes?

Is Jackson a Muslim? No. He was doing what anyone else would have done in the early 1800’s.

History is great. Thank you for the lesson.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 17, 2016 2:23 AM
Comment #410150

J2,

“That is what many on the right would ask us to believe.”

No J2, that is what the information you say is out there proves, when looked at without partisan lenses. I am not a strong proponent of voter ID, nor am I big on illegal voting, but individual laziness does not equal ‘suppression.’

“We have been seperated into groups or tribes forever.”

Not by our government, J2. And on the rare occasion when we were, we came together as one group, Americans, to address the problem.
Today however, our leftist government treats one person different than another based on what group they have been placed in. Being an American now comes a distant second or third to whatever group one has been placed in by the left.

“To think conservatives have worked to bring us together is unbelievably foolish.”

What I said was that leftists have worked, and continue to work, on separating us. Your inability to deny that fact and having to resort to blaming those who disagree with such division, says it all.

“Sounds like just a few degrees difference IMHO kctim.”

That is only because you put party over country and believe such ridiculous propaganda will benefit the agenda you support.
The fact is that our country is no where close to being susceptible to, or supportive of, a fascist government.
IF ‘big lies, charisma and false promises’ were all it took to become a fascist government, we would all be screaming Heil Obama by now.

“Fascism is a far right ideology.”

Rhinehold has already proven just how wrong you are so there is no need for me to rehash this.

Posted by: kctim at November 17, 2016 9:59 AM
Comment #410154
Royal, j2t2 is conveniently forgetting all of the progressives in the 1920s that supported and championed the Nazi causes…

No Rhinehold I just don’t fall into the trap of letting the ‘20’s especially the early pre jail ‘20’s define what the Nazi’ were a decade later.


Rhinehold has already proven just how wrong you are so there is no need for me to rehash this.

Kctim, Rhinehold dug up the old 25 points thing to prove the Nazi party was socialist or far left ideology but lets remember that was written in the early ‘20’s when Hitler was member 55 of the party. When the Nazi Party was to small to actually have someone elected to office. If Hitler was out of the army when they wrote this it was only by a year or two.

After his treason and subsequent imprisonment the Party wasn’t much of anything. He resurrected it (the Nazi Party)from the dead in the mid to late ‘20’s. So lets look at the record, the strategy and how he won the German people over to his cause from that point in time and compare the similarities we see today. For starters he adopted the tactics of the Italian fascist. Secondly he had the support of many German businessmen and prohibited trade unions the lifeblood of socialist groups in Germany back then.. Kinda like Trump being more liberal earlier in his life and more conservative now.

But just so we aren’t confused my point is many conservatives refuse to believe fascism is right wing, hell the American Nazi Party is part of the alt right, simply because of the word socialist. That simply isn’t true. Now that doesn’t each and every issue of the times translates directly to the late 20’s and early 30’s of Germany.

I am not trying to say Trump intends on killing 6 million Muslims whilst starting a world war, I am saying many good people are deceived today by his charisma and rhetoric just as many good people were deceived back then.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 17, 2016 11:38 AM
Comment #410157
I am not a strong proponent of voter ID, nor am I big on illegal voting, but individual laziness does not equal ‘suppression.’

It isn’t laziness it is intentional kctim. The strategy is to suppress 3% of the vote. It is suppression.

Not by our government, J2. And on the rare occasion when we were, we came together as one group, Americans, to address the problem.

So segregation, reservations and such were just figments of the imagination? Seriously kctim since the beginning of history we have been tribal. Hence wars and more wars.

Today however, our leftist government treats one person different than another based on what group they have been placed in.

You tell us it is “our leftist government”, the source of all evil for conservatives, but lets remember blacks were 3/5ths a person and neither women, blacks or poor white guys could vote based upon the Constitution. The left simply wants the same rights for all people nit just rich white guys. That is what separates us kctim. Using the strawman of group vs individual is just an attempt to justify discrimination and keep us at war.

What I said was that leftists have worked, and continue to work, on separating us. Your inability to deny that fact and having to resort to blaming those who disagree with such division, says it all.

Well then let me clarify that oversight. You are categorically wrong kctim. One word multiculturalism. The opposite of separating us kctim.

That is only because you put party over country and believe such ridiculous propaganda will benefit the agenda you support.

Once again your theory is wrong. I am not nor have I been a member of any political party. I have registered as an independent voter forever. SO I have no party .

The fact is that our country is no where close to being susceptible to, or supportive of, a fascist government. IF ‘big lies, charisma and false promises’ were all it took to become a fascist government, we would all be screaming Heil Obama by now.

Not a fact an opinion kctim. But were he not black…..Were he far right wing….

That being said you are right it is more than big lies charisma and false promises. Fascism has an appeal to the authoritarians. Look at out police compared to the police in Scandinavian countries. Look at the almost total control conservatives have on the country today. Most state legislatures, the federal government are all controlled by an oligarchy. Our military is the largest in the world and that still isn’t enough or conservatives.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 17, 2016 12:03 PM
Comment #410160

Whilst you ponder what I have written kctim here is a another bit for you….


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas/2016/11/16/trumps-rise-first-stage-white-nationalist-movement-says-alt-right-leader-dallas

Posted by: j2t2 at November 17, 2016 12:57 PM
Comment #410206
Rhinehold dug up the old 25 points thing to prove the Nazi party was socialist or far left ideology but lets remember that was written in the early ‘20’s when Hitler was member 55 of the party

Written and maintained until the end of the Nazi Party. You apparently didn’t read that part in your attempt to find SOME way to absolve socialism of its dark side because you can’t fathom it having one.

Here’s the dirty truth. Socialism is an authoritarian political system, requiring the violation of individual rights for the ‘greater good’. There is no ‘freedom’ unless you either are part of the majority or monied elite. Period.

To suggest that Hitler wasn’t left wing, when his policies were very much so, for citizens, you completely misunderstand how politics works. You want to shell yourself into thinking that the left can’t be fascist, can’t be authoritarian, when by its very nature it can be, and often is, just that.

If you don’t think that what we’ve seen over the past 8 years with anyone and everyone who dared disagree with Obama being labelled a racist isn’t a DIRECT result in Trump being elected, you are deluding yourself and you are no never going to learn anything.

Michael Moore has a great explanation of why Trump was going to win while the rest of his liberal counterparts were, and still are, ignorant to the situation because they put themselves in echo chambers and surround themselves with superiority. “Anyone who doesn’t agree with them is just ‘too stupid’ or ‘just racist’ otherwise they would agree with us.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeYbEOSqYc

The fact is, that result in a resentment that is more powerful than the fear that the left has been peddling for generations and why the Democratic Party has been spiraling out of power since 2008. Congrats, some day maybe we’ll see the demise of the Democratic Party as it splits into a progressive party (with as many people supporting it as the Green Party does today) and a new classical liberal party that actually remembers what Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were saying when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

You can either take your fingers out of your ears and listen to what the people you denigrate are SAYING, not just label and ignore them. Or you can continue looking down at the unwashed masses and ignore them and look around and wonder why you keep losing. It’s up to you.

Posted by: Rhinehold at November 17, 2016 10:02 PM
Comment #410227
Written and maintained until the end of the Nazi Party. You apparently didn’t read that part in your attempt to find SOME way to absolve socialism of its dark side because you can’t fathom it having one.

Well the Nazi party that wrote this was disbanded in the mid ‘20’s Rhinehold. Now lets get on to your strawman. This isn’t about socialism. This is about the fact the Nazi’s were a far right wing group. I have neither defended nor opposed the “dark side” od socialism because it isn’t the point.

“The party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany.[6] The party was created as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[7] Initially, Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although such aspects were later downplayed in order to gain the support of industrial entities, and in the 1930s the party’s focus shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes.[8]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Here’s the dirty truth. Socialism is an authoritarian political system, requiring the violation of individual rights for the ‘greater good’. There is no ‘freedom’ unless you either are part of the majority or monied elite. Period.

So is conservatism as practiced Rhinehold. Which was my point all along. Fascism is a far right ideology. The Nazi’s were far right and Italian fascism was far right ideology.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 18, 2016 11:39 AM
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