Baltimore: the Worst Moral Hazard of All

Graham Nash wrote the protest song Chicago and released it on his first solo album 3 years after the Democratic convention in 1968 and it’s conflict-ridden days. It was inevitable that the song be sampled and it was indeed over a decade ago by Westside Connection, among others, in their song Gangsta Nation. The lyrics of the original Graham Nash song include the lines from the chorus, “rules and regulations who needs them, open up the door”. Now I suppose the British hippie with the choir boy vocal harmonies did not mean using a crow bar necessarily to open up doors. Although given the behavior of some of the rioters in Chicago in 1968, that would not have been ruled out either. And nearly 50 years after the riots in Chicago, we now have a sampling of the violent political rhetoric of that time, but at the service of the cliched, nihilistic, strutting pose of gangsta rap. Already a known and faded entertainment commodity, but still a powerful rhetorical tool for those with criminal intent who wish to burn the thing down. Be it a store, a police station, or somebody’s home.

And of course, there has to be a film as well. No way Hollywood was going to miss out on the revenues raked in by Snoop, 50 Cent and all the rest of the gangs. In this case, Purge will do nicely thank you. And finally social media have to be there as well. How can you organize a flash mob from cities hundreds of miles apart without a little Facebook time? So the tools at our disposal are put to the task of destruction in the name of a justice that can only be served with fire and theft. A crowbar is, of course, a useful tool to pull nails and help a carpenter raise a structure: a house, a church even, God forbid. That it is a widespread symbol of destruction is not merely about poverty and the cultural and ethnic divides that ignite when police cross the line, and when police don't cross the line as well. It is about a moral choice: to raise or to raze and loot. A choice that can build or can burn. We need people to understand the benefits of building, to truly believe in the possibilities of constructing something new and hopeful. But we also need people, those who choose to riot, to understand the consequences of their criminal destruction. To their own neighborhoods, and to themselves. And that teaching is a tough one, by necessity. To not punish the rioters is to risk the worst moral hazard of all: one that implicitly rewards violent criminal behavior. And punishing the rioters severely must go hand in hand with a complete investigation of the alleged brutality, whatever the consequences of that investigation may be.

Posted by Keeley at April 28, 2015 5:07 PM
Comments
Comment #392995

Confronting the forces that would deny liberty to the people of this country and you blame them. No different than throwing tea off the corporate ship into the harbor, or the Boston Massacre….er…um.. well except the music and the fact they are black.

Yet you have the audacity to talk moral hazard, while people are killed while in the hands of the police department, a broken spine for crying out loud. But after an investigation, according to the police chief, they couldn’t say how the guy died! Yet you talk of moral hazard if we don’t punish the victims.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/massacre.htm

Posted by: j2t2 at April 29, 2015 7:27 PM
Comment #393079

Of course, the solution is always to crack down harder. Thing is, did you notice this was in response to somebody dying of a broken spine? Heavy-handedness is already being practiced. Now people are paying attention, and heavy-handed actions will only confirm the worst suspicions of an already on-edge community.

You know, the vast majority of protestors were peaceful. Leave those people alone. If somebody gets rowdy, respond to them quickly, and with discipline and control of yourselves, and the rest will take care of themselves. You can’t preach responsibility to people, then turn around and generalize the deeds of a few to justify a harsh response against the many, and expect people to trust your sense of personal responsibility.

If you say, “we’re going to treat black people like potential criminals until they all prove they’re better than that,” if you racially profile and allow harsher violence against them, many are going to lose hope that acting good themselves will actually benefit them, will actually get them recognized as responsible individuals. They will lose faith that the system even cares about protecting their life, liberty, and property, and that will mean fewer people will actually see it as THEIR society.

Oh, and really, you want to talk about moral hazard? How about all those films where the heroes (or even the villains for that matter) torture an answer out of somebody, or threaten violence to coerce a confession? How many times have we set out police work as being all action and defeating the bad guys by force, rather than about keeping the peace and doing actual investigative work?

Additionally, if you’re keeping track, from jazz and the blues to R&B, we’ve appropriated much of the Black Culture’s products for ourselves. Hell, today’s white kids listen to hip-hop now, and they’ve got that running through their culture now. Of course, we also got our share of countercultures we started and acquired from elsewhere. The punks, the greasers, the hippie, the militias, the whatever.

But you know what? Any culture that doesn’t have the freedom or the vibrancy necessary to create that kind of variety is one that will lack the creativity and daring to do great things.

First thing you need to realize is that most people, even if they project a mean or shocking exterior, have moral codes, have social shame and relatively normal values.

Today, in my pretty conservative neck of the woods, it’s not unusual to see parents leading around young kids with mohawks, for ordinary adults to be tattooed, pierced, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that what was shocking yesterday may be today customary. Jazz was shocking in its day, as was rock and roll.

I’ve killed more people in a video game than died in the Civil War. If killing people in a video game made me violent in real life, I’d be on death row by now. In reality, it only lets me feel the excitement of being an action hero.

The problem comes when you stop making distinctions between fiction and reality, when you start thinking that a simplistic narrative is any replacement for looking at the world, understanding it, interacting with it, and approaching things with a decent level of wisdom. Policing in the real world is not policing in the movies.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 30, 2015 9:06 AM
Comment #393080

Yeah, burning down senior citizen centers, destroying the property of your neighbors, stealing toilet paper and TVs - JUST like the Boston Tea Party.

LOL!!!

Posted by: kctim at April 30, 2015 9:11 AM
Comment #393138

Kctim. do you think the British thought throwing tea overboard was noble? Property was destroyed albeit not the neighbors unless your neighbor was a tea merchant for the East India Co.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/sons.htm

Posted by: j2t2 at April 30, 2015 7:07 PM
Comment #393199

*sigh*

One of the biggest problems this country faces today are people who think they know what is going on and reacting without even waiting to find out facts… Either making assumptions are believing what you are told without question.

Some say this age of emotion is better than the age of enlightenment that existed before, but I don’t see that as being a positive move forward at all. :/

Why is running away when police arrive considered ‘probable cause’ for chasing that person down?

Why is having a pocketknife a crime?

How did Freddie Gray’s back get broken?

Once we stop treating people as guilty until proven innocent and criminalizing every action so that anyone can be detained by police, perhaps some of these unfortunate events won’t happen? But politicians have to be ‘tough on crime’ to win these days, don’t they? Both parties are at fault for events like this and somehow we think that either party can fix it? I seriously doubt it. :(

Posted by: Rhinehold at May 1, 2015 1:38 AM
Comment #393275

Here in America we are exceptional at fixing the blame. We ring our hands and clutch our pearls and proclaim “not my fault”.
Sorry, guys this is not just a problem in Baltimore, or Ferguson, or Detroit. This is not just a Democratic or a Republican problem. And it surely isn’t about welfare or some sense of entitlement.

This problem didn’t start yesterday, or last week or last year. This has been fermenting for decades, and we all have a hand in it. It’s far too easy to take the moral high ground from suburbia.

We have spent over a trillion dollars on the war on drugs. The result has been a more militarized police force, a climate of fear, a disproportionate amount of people of color behind bars, and no actual change in the status of our communities.

We have to start by dealing with the disease, not the symptoms.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at May 1, 2015 9:22 AM
Comment #393280

Rocky,

The sad part is that for some reason the media is focusing on this as a ‘racial’ issue. There are white people who are being killed by police but we don’t hear about them because it doesn’t fit the agenda.

The issues are the things that some of us have been warning about and trying to fix for decades, but the people in power on both sides don’t see it and are blind to it. Instead, they look to manipulate situations like this one to their own political advantage. The pawns being used by them are the ones that are going to be hard to save and will exacerbate the issue for decades to come as we train new younger people to see the issue as race instead of government overreach into our lives.

Posted by: Rhinehold at May 1, 2015 9:55 AM
Comment #393282

An example… how close does this match to the current situation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

Kelly Thomas (April 5, 1974 – July 10, 2011) was a homeless man diagnosed with schizophrenia who lived on the streets of Fullerton, California. He was beaten by Jay Cicinelli, Manuel Ramos, and Joseph Wolfe, three members of the Fullerton Police Department, on July 5, 2011. Thomas was taken to St. Jude Medical Center before being transferred to the UC Irvine Medical Center, where he was comatose on arrival and not expected to recover. He never regained consciousness, and died on July 10, 2011.

Medical records show that bones in his face were broken and he choked on his own blood. The coroner concluded that compression of the thorax made it impossible for Thomas to breathe normally and deprived his brain of oxygen. His parents removed him from life support five days later, and he died from his injuries on July 10, 2011. Officer Manuel Ramos was charged with one count of second-degree murder and one count of involuntary manslaughter; Corporal Jay Cicinelli and Officer Joseph Wolfe were each charged with one count of felony involuntary manslaughter and one count of excessive force. All three pleaded not guilty.

A judge declined to dismiss the charges against the officers in January 2013, finding that “a reasonable person could infer that the use of force was excessive and unreasonable.” An appeals court judge also denied a request to overturn the lower court’s decision. On January 13, 2014, Ramos and Cicinelli were found not guilty of all charges, while the trial for Wolfe was pending. Following the verdict for the two officers, the district attorney’s office announced it would not pursue the case against Wolfe.

Most people probably never heard of this situation because Kelley wasn’t black, there were no riots. No religious leaders were instigating violence, etc. It didn’t serve specific people’s agendas so his life was considered unworthy…

That jury told the police departments that beating suspects was ok, so why are we shocked now? There’s your moral hazard…

Posted by: Rhinehold at May 1, 2015 10:02 AM
Comment #393293
The sad part is that for some reason the media is focusing on this as a ‘racial’ issue. There are white people who are being killed by police but we don’t hear about them because it doesn’t fit the agenda.

Rhinehold, why would the media portray this as anything other than racial? It is blacks getting killed, blacks protesting, conservatives blaming blacks for protesting and for getting killed by cops, and the libertarians sitting on the sidelines blaming government but not lifting a finger in cases like Kelly Thomas.

As long as we all sit on the sidelines letting the black guys carry the load I am not surprised the media, including the conservative media, portrays this as a racial problem. To a certain degree it is although the problem is bigger than just a racial issue.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 1, 2015 11:05 AM
Comment #393301

j2t2,

libertarians sitting on the sidelines blaming government but not lifting a finger in cases like Kelly Thomas

Some advice, it is usually best to not speak about things you obviously know nothing about… Libertarians were the only ones actually trying to do something about Kelly Thomas’ situation. The Democrats were the ones sitting on the sidelines on that one…

As for ‘why is this anything other than racial’? Because it isn’t racial. That Gray HAPPENED to be black isn’t the issue, it is a red herring. This happens to whites as well as blacks as I just detailed, the only time the Democrats want to raise it as an issue is when they can get their political jollies of spreading racial unrest for political gain. An action that continues to harm race relations in the US, not make them better. But to them, the short term is better than the long term and always has been with race relations in the US.

Libertarians aren’t sitting on the sidelines, we are just not falling for the race baiting that the left is psychologically incapable of not playing up for their own needs.

Posted by: Rhinehold at May 1, 2015 11:49 AM
Comment #393304

http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/16/whos-responsible-for-police-killings#.rur12h:JL9z

“While data on police killings is incomplete because it largely relies on self-reporting, the data that does exist suggest police killings are going up even as violent crimes and the killing of police officers is going down. More than 1,000 people were killed by police in 2014.”

“There is an undeniable racial component to the problem of police violence, one rooted in white supremacy. Cops, white and black, are more likely to view a black person as a greater threat. There’s a reason in New York City and elsewhere marijuana arrests of black people are far higher than the rate of use broken down by race would suggest. Drug laws, nanny state laws, petty laws, offer a vehicle for such biases. Worse, they create the conditions for the use of force on people not committing any inherent crime, whether racial biases exist or not. People of all races are killed by police—95 percent men. They’re disproportionately black but still more white than black, and Native Americans are most likely to be shot by cops.

“Some commentators get painfully close to the realization that police violence is a tool of the democracy—of the masses. “We can talk about Michael Slager,” wrote Greg Howard at Deadspin, “but he was, if almost certainly unwittingly, a tool. The issue is who wields him.” Howard’s answer is white supremacy, the institution that creates the biases in the cops, not democratic government, the institution that puts the cops on the street to use force in the enforcement of even the most petty laws, like selling loose, untaxed cigarettes. Eric Harris was shot by Robert Bates, a “reserve deputy” who said he thought he was using his taser. Harris was allegedly trying to sell an illegal gun, in Oklahoma, where gun laws are fairly lax, to an undercover cop. Trying to sell an inanimate object to another person—a cop sent out to prevent people from selling that object to people other people don’t think should own one—led to the killing of Eric Harris. The outrage over Bates’ actions is deserved; they led to him killing Harris. But the outrage over his biases, racial or otherwise, may be most useful in avoiding the discussion of the kinds of inherently non-violent laws democratic governments command police officers to enforce with violence.

Posted by: Rhinehold at May 1, 2015 11:54 AM
Comment #393306

BTW, j2t2, where is your evidence that Gray was kill because he was black? Are we free to just assume racism whenever we want to make our political agenda’s stick or do we still, in the United States, need to actually prove things before making statements as factual? Which US do we live in?

Posted by: Rhinehold at May 1, 2015 11:59 AM
Comment #393310

Rhinehold,

IMHO this is all about stirring the pot. The media has become all about the ratings, and therefore about the money. Whatever they can sell to the rubes.

We’re all suckers. We watch television like children. “Reality” sells, and the more “real” it seems the better.

I mean, think about it. Why on earth could “reality” shows like “Cops” or “Survivor”, or “The Bachelor” be so successful in this country?

There is nothing real about this reality we as a people seem so fond of.

The media is driving this train.

Perhaps we should think about pulling the emergency stop cord.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at May 1, 2015 12:12 PM
Comment #393313

Rhinehold, It is no coincidence that there is partisanship expressed regarding the problem of police and the community they attempt to protect or subjugate depending on how well they do their job and care for their community. Does it really help to keep throwing tires on the fire?

The following are good examples of someone using rhetoric to add to the partisanship of this discussion:

“the only time the Democrats want to raise it as an issue is when they can get their political jollies of spreading racial unrest for political gain.”

“we are just not falling for the race baiting that the left is psychologically incapable of not playing up for their own needs.”

You started off pretty good in your first comment except for the childish “sigh”. I get really tired of seeing that inane expression.

How about moving away from a left/right, Democrat/Republican problem and just stick to the problem of police either protecting or subjugating their community.

I understand that you take affront when Libertarians are unfairly accused however it doesn’t make sense to counter those accusations with other accusations if a meaningful discussion is what is intended.

kct, well considering that there weren’t TV’s and probably just rudimentary toilet paper at that time your analogy is flawed. A case of tea at that time was probably worth a lot more than a big screen HD TV in today’s dollars. Come to think of it those members of the Boston Tea Party that dressed up like Indians to try to shift the blame probably weren’t very honorable in doing so. I’m sure the corporations that were attacked called them “thugs” and “hooligans” at that time too.

Posted by: Speak4all at May 1, 2015 12:25 PM
Comment #393342

Rhinehold, let me be a bit more specific as it seems you have talked around the issue.

As for ‘why is this anything other than racial’?

Oh Rhinehold quoting me out of context! What I said was “why would the media portray this as anything other than racial?” Seems you jumped the gun, anticipated what you thought I was gonna say.

In Baltimore it is a black guy that had his spine broken, it is blacks that are protesting his death by marching rioting and confronting the armed police. The same can be said of NYC and Ferguson the past few months.

That is why I said “why would the media portray this as anything other than racial?”. Why would you expect anything else? They report on the news and no one is in the streets when a white guy gets killed by the police.

Libertarians aren’t sitting on the sidelines,

Well it seems to me writing articles in Reason Magazine isn’t the front lines anymore Rhinehold, it is the sideines. The white guys are talking but they are not protesting, rioting, or keeping the issue in the news for the media. If we want change we need to scream long and loud to be heard over all that money filling the politicians pockets.

we are just not falling for the race baiting that the left is psychologically incapable of not playing up for their own needs.

Is that because y’all are down in Texas gearing up for the government invasion and takeover of Texas next month? Oh just kidding Rhinehold.

Well you are falling for something, Rhinehold because libertarians and dems really aren’t doing much but giving lip service to the problem, and perhaps calling the black guys thugs for their effort. Of course repubs and conservatives are cheering the police on for the most part if Fox News is any indication.
I would suggest you are on the sidelines because when white guys get killed, usually the mentally ill white guys, we hear about it on Libertarian and Liberal sites but there is no protest therefor no news and no solution to the problem.

BTW, j2t2, where is your evidence that Gray was kill because he was black?

Rhinehold look at what I said, I don’t need any evidence because I didn’t make that claim. I’m not even sure it was the police that killed him, I do believe that because there was 6 or 7 involved they do know who did kill him though.

IMHO Rhinehold it is time to get over the “racebaiting” thing simply because proportionally blacks do get killed without justification by police much more often than whites. But the real issue is the extreme use of violence by police and it isn’t going away unless we take to the streets, judging by the inactivity by our elected officials and the consistence and ongoing killing spree of some of the police departments in this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 1, 2015 3:34 PM
Comment #393346

j2t2, it looks like the State’s Attorney thinks it was murder.

Baltimore prosecutor charges police with murder

Posted by: Speak4all at May 1, 2015 3:58 PM
Comment #393348

American policemen killed more Americans in March than the British police have killed since 1900.

Posted by: phx8 at May 1, 2015 4:16 PM
Comment #393351

Whoops, try this one:

Baltimore prosecutor charges police with murder

Posted by: Speak4all at May 1, 2015 4:27 PM
Comment #393393

I blame the war on drugs which encouraged the militarization of the police, “no knock” warrants and, by definition, a huge criminal population of users and dealers. There are other factors such as the abandonment of beat policing and centralization of former neighborhood precincts into consolidated and more removed facilities.

All these factors have encouraged a we vs. they mentality. Rather than a force to protect and serve, the police have become an occupying army functioning in enemy territory. This is most apparent in low income areas where drug trafficking is a major source of commerce and income.

The Freddie Gray case is not a case of racial discrimination. Three of the officers charged are black. The officer charged with murder is black. Freddie Gray was targeted not because he was black but because they thought he was a low level drug dealer running from them.

It is racial only in the sense that low income urban areas are predominately black.

It is time that we rethink not only the war on drugs but our concept of policing.

Posted by: Rich at May 1, 2015 8:34 PM
Comment #393399

I might add that the increased approval of militarism generally in the US over the past few decades has contributed greatly to approval of police adopting aggressive force related tactics. Force seems to be the preferred tactic for solving any and all problems.

Posted by: Rich at May 1, 2015 9:05 PM
Comment #393556

“The task we’ve got ahead of us now is an awkward one … It’s untidy. And freedom’s untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They’re also free to live their lives and do wonderful things. And that’s what’s going to happen here,”

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at May 2, 2015 1:41 PM
Comment #393961

J2

Then, the actions were in protest of government tyranny. The riots and looting of today are for personal gain.

Speaks

Value has nothing to do with it.

Posted by: kctim at May 4, 2015 9:09 AM
Comment #393993

Kctim, getting your spine broken in the back of a police van isn’t considered government tyranny!

Posted by: j2t2 at May 4, 2015 1:00 PM
Comment #393996

You actually know that as FACT j2? Or are you speculating since the autopsy report hasn’t been made public yet?

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at May 4, 2015 1:26 PM
Comment #394002

Not even close J2.

Government does not mandate or support such abusive treatment. In fact, it has rules in place to help prevent it the best it can.
This kind of abuse would be individual, not systematic.

And let’s not kid ourselves here, we do NOT yet know what happened and it is absolutely ridiculous to have had protests and riots without all of the facts being known. You would think people would have learned their lesson with the Martin and Brown cases.

Posted by: kctim at May 4, 2015 2:00 PM
Comment #394016
Not even close J2.Government does not mandate or support such abusive treatment. In fact, it has rules in place to help prevent it the best it can.

Seems to me kctim it is the worst tyranny of all, when you go into police custody and end up dead. I find it hard to compare paying taxes and all the other stuff righties come up with as tyranny to ending up dead while in custody on minor violations of the law. I wonder what the founding fathers meant when they said “Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness” was that just for the landed gentry in your opinion kctim?

And let’s not kid ourselves here, we do NOT yet know what happened and it is absolutely ridiculous to have had protests and riots without all of the facts being known.

We do know he went into police custody and he died from injuries suffered while in custody. As I said I’m not sure the police did it, although the prosecutor thinks they have enough to charge the police , but they know who did.

As far as rioting I just don’t know what the correct time frame is for waiting to find out the facts as the facts are so hard to come by in these cases what with the special privileges afforded the police in these instances.

You would think people would have learned their lesson with the Martin and Brown cases.

I would hope the lesson is keep on rioting. These police state tactics aren’t going away without the effort of the American people.

I understand conservatives setting this one out, while they all meet in Texas to make sure Obama isn’t taking over Texas with all those troops and such, but our police using military force on citizens is acceptable to them!

Posted by: j2t2 at May 4, 2015 3:18 PM
Comment #394021

Sigh

Unrepresented oppressive taxation and having your individual rights infringed upon or taken away, is an action of government.
Violating department policy and abusing someone, is an individual action.
Government abuse of its people vs. an individual abuse of another individual.
No comparison.

“As I said I’m not sure the police did it”

That is called doubt and any riots based on doubt are not justified.

“I would hope the lesson is keep on rioting”

And that is very sad to hear. Especially since the rhetoric proved to be false in both cases. Protesting, rioting and attacking innocent people gets no sympathy when it’s not based on facts.

“but our police using military force on citizens is acceptable to them!”

1 - FEMA camp talk has been around long before the savior Obama became king.

2 - After condemning the citizens and praising the government during the Bundy event, surely you don’t expect to be taken seriously with such comments?

Posted by: kctim at May 4, 2015 3:46 PM
Comment #394035

kct, “Value has nothing to do with it”. On the contrary, a more misguided statement could not be made. The Baltimore demonstrations were in response to the value of a human life that was taken while a person was in the custody of law enforcement. The riot and looting that occurred one week ago today was borne from the frustration of young people that were being stonewalled and lied to drip by drip yet again. The charges brought on Friday have helped these young people to understand that there is recourse from riot in the form of legal actions. You can worry about taxes and sigh about your gun rights all you want. I myself support the people of Baltimore demanding to know what happened and how to prevent further occurrences in the future of the Freddie Gray outcome, notwithstanding all of the sighing.

Posted by: Speak4all at May 4, 2015 5:27 PM
Comment #394041

Speaks

You go from comparing TVs and tea to human life now?

The Baltimore protests were in response to what people think happened, not what actually happened.
The riots, looting, destruction and attacks on innocent people were based on racism and, as President Obama said himself, personal gain.
The hurried charges brought were to placate the mob, not satisfy justice.

“You can worry about taxes and sigh about your gun rights all you want.”

And this is where people like me differ from those such as yourself and J2, I care about all of our rights, not just a few my political party cares about.

“I myself support the people of Baltimore demanding to know what happened and how to prevent further occurrences in the future of the Freddie Gray outcome”

Again, the mere fact that yourself and the rioters do not know what happened invalidates the riots. You cannot support the people of Baltimore if you and they do not support the rule of law.

“notwithstanding all of the sighing”

When trying to be civil with those who put politics before facts, sometimes sighing is best.

Posted by: kctim at May 4, 2015 5:51 PM
Comment #394043

kct, you are the one who first brought property and tv’s into the discussion.

Your sanctimonious sighing gets old.

The people of Baltimore are attempting to find out what happened and stop that from happening again in the future, I support their efforts.

I have no idea what you are wanting but I think it has something to do with your disapproval of something or other.

Posted by: Speak4all at May 4, 2015 5:56 PM
Comment #394090
No comparison.

Perhaps in your mind kctim. Yet the founding fathers did say “life liberty and the pursuit of happiness right? Not only that they did this thing called the 5th amendment, and no it doesn’t cover “unrepresented oppressive taxation”(whatever that is) but it does cover “nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;” which seems to be what has happened in the Freddie Grey case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

That is called doubt and any riots based on doubt are not justified.

Sure they are kctim. Simply because I didn’t know if the police were responsible it seems many didn’t have the same opinion. It seems rioting is the only way left kctim. Our elected officials don’t seem to be to interested in stopping the militarization of the police. The police double down time and again with excessive force and for the most part get away with it. Meanwhile in many other countries in Europe and Australia we see the police just don’t have to use this force on the citizenry, it is a choice and it is what they are taught now.

And that is very sad to hear. Especially since the rhetoric proved to be false in both cases. Protesting, rioting and attacking innocent people gets no sympathy when it’s not based on facts.

So I noticed you glossed right over the special privileges comment I made earlier. Let me say it again “As far as rioting I just don’t know what the correct time frame is for waiting to find out the facts as the facts are so hard to come by in these cases what with the special privileges afforded the police in these instances”. To say justice was served in the Martin or Ferguson is pushing it a bit IMHO kctim. Lets remember the police have not only the protection of their own department but of the prosecutors office as well most of the time. So even when they bring the police to trial the magic words “I feared for my life” seems to get them a free pass the rest of us don’t get. In the Martin case the law favored the bully and he got off.


1 - FEMA camp talk has been around long before the savior Obama became king.

You bring up some conservative conspiracy theory as proof of what exactly kctim?

2 - After condemning the citizens and praising the government during the Bundy event, surely you don’t expect to be taken seriously with such comments?

So this is the guy that grazed public lands and didn’t pay for the use of the lands? The government didn’t use force while the “citizens” tried to and your point is what exactly?


Posted by: j2t2 at May 4, 2015 10:41 PM
Comment #394095

Kctim, A bit off the subject but this is what I was referring to earlier. I’m hoping NPR has mistakenly got this from the Onion but deep down I know it’s just not the case.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2015/05/02/403865824/texas-governor-deploys-state-guard-to-stave-off-obama-takeover

Posted by: j2t2 at May 4, 2015 11:13 PM
Comment #394181

Yes Speaks, I brought TVs and toilet paper into the discussion because J2 compared stealing those things for personal gain to taking a stand against tyranny.

Sigh.

Finding out what happened and preventing it from happening again is great. But why riot BEFORE you know what happened? How can you prevent something from happening again, when you don’t know what happened in the first place?

All I want is for people to stop jumping to conclusions and to stop making excuses for bad behavior that is detrimental to society.
Sigh.

Posted by: kctim at May 5, 2015 9:25 AM
Comment #394182

kct, I don’t care why you brought your sanctimonious comment into the discussion, you did it not me. Regarding your insistence in “finding out what happened”, your patience is admirable but again very misguided. The people of Baltimore aren’t listening to you and neither is anyone else. The ME declared the death a homicide and the State Attorney filed charges. Once that was decided the demonstrations have taken a much more peaceful demeanor but were not addressed until there was a definite call from the people of Baltimore to do so. What more do you want kct? It was a homicide according to the ME and charges have been filed against the suspected perpetrators. Now the court will decide, but that doesn’t stop the people of Baltimore from expressing their dissatisfaction with the community relations with LE. What would you have them do? Just sit down, shut up and go away? That’s not gonna happen, much to your chagrin evidently.

Posted by: Speak4all at May 5, 2015 9:36 AM
Comment #394193

J2

Not in my mind, but in the name of integrity and some common sense. The time to protest an injustice is AFTER you know that an injustice has occurred.

“Simply because I didn’t know if the police were responsible it seems many didn’t have the same opinion.”

Opinions?
Opinion gave people the idea that an evil white guy hunted down and intentionally murdered a little black kid eating Skittles. The facts showed us that a Hispanic man killed a young man in self defense.
Opinion gave people the idea that an evil white police officer was hunting black people and murdered a black child by shooting him in the back while his hands were up saying don’t shoot. The facts showed us that a police officer was attacked by a man and shot him as he was running back at him.
You don’t destroy your world and attack innocent people simply because of opinion.

“Our elected officials don’t seem to be to interested in stopping the militarization of the police.”

True.

“The police double down time and again with excessive force and for the most part get away with it.”

The police interact with civilians tens of thousands of times a day and the use of excessive force is rare. Now is the time for protests, not riots.

“Meanwhile in many other countries in Europe and Australia we see the police just don’t have to use this force on the citizenry, it is a choice and it is what they are taught now.”

I do not care about other countries, they are not guaranteed the individual rights we are.
As far as our country, we brought this upon ourselves. We gave government the permission to control us in exchange for handouts, and that control has naturally led to abuse.

“Let me say it again “As far as rioting I just don’t know what the correct time frame is for waiting to find out the facts as the facts are so hard to come by in these cases what with the special privileges afforded the police in these instances”.

Rioting should be the very last course of action taken.
Look J2, agree or disagree with the cause, I honestly do encourage protests and demonstrations. I was fully behind the people in Baltimore taking to the streets and demanding proper investigations. But I cannot support the rioting, looting, destruction of property and attacks on innocent people.

“You bring up some conservative conspiracy theory as proof of what exactly kctim?”

You brought up Jade Helm to make a dig at the right over Obama, when the fact is that those who believe in those conspiracies have been around long before Obama.

“The government didn’t use force while the “citizens” tried to and your point is what exactly?”

My point is how you are so willing to distort the truth to fit your politics, which is exactly what your statement shows.
Right or wrong, Bundy had a grievance with government and he was protesting. When government started to abuse their power, citizens showed up to protest its actions. Nobody was harmed and property was not destroyed. But yet you cheer government abuse and condemn the people standing up for their rights.
In Ferguson and Baltimore, people had a grievance with government and were protesting. When those protests led to riots, destruction and attacks on innocent people, you reversed your position.

Posted by: kctim at May 5, 2015 10:52 AM
Comment #394214

kctim,
“Opinion gave people the idea that an evil white guy hunted down and intentionally murdered a little black kid eating Skittles. The facts showed us that a Hispanic man killed a young man in self defense.”

Hyperbole much?

Here’s my opinion and it is backed up by facts that were ignored.

A cop wannabe security guard, after calling the police and being told to back off, ignores that “request” and confronts an unarmed black teenager. That teen is dead because of the overblown ego of the idiot security guard. I’m not saying the kid was an angel, I’m just saying he shouldn’t be dead.

The rioting in Baltimore is a result of one more black man dying while in police custody. It doesn’t matter a whit who actually caused the injuries as once in their custody he becomes the responsibility of the police. It is their job to determine whether he is a danger to himself. Apparently that wasn’t the case.

Now we agree the violence has gone over the top, but we disagree that we need to know all the facts before the demonstrations start.
This has happened way too often in the last few months.

Perhaps we need to re-examine our militaristic style police forces and how they deal with everybody.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at May 5, 2015 12:54 PM
Comment #394215

Speaks Speaks Speaks - Sigh

There is no need to get upset when people point facts out to you. You often spin yourself in circles so you should appreciate the help.

I don’t care if the people of Baltimore are listening to me or not, logic and common sense states that you know what the hell you are protesting BEFORE you protest it.

“The ME declared the death a homicide and the State Attorney filed charges.”

But the riots, destruction and attacks happened BEFORE any charges were filed.

“Once that was decided the demonstrations have taken a much more peaceful demeanor but were not addressed until there was a definite call from the people of Baltimore to do so.”

The protests were enough to bring attention to the case and ensure the issue was properly addressed.

“What more do you want kct?”

“What would you have them do? Just sit down, shut up and go away?”

What would I have them do? Protest!!!! Not riot, destroy and attack innocent people. Sheesh.

Respond to what is said, not what you think is said.

Posted by: kctim at May 5, 2015 1:03 PM
Comment #394410
The time to protest an injustice is AFTER you know that an injustice has occurred.

It seems to me the people of Baltimore were quite sure the timing was right for them. They knew an injustice had occurred. They didn’t need to be told by an official that an injustice had occurred.

I do not care about other countries, they are not guaranteed the individual rights we are.

Of course you don’t it screws with your ideologies. The fact is many countries have individual rights and yet they don’t have such a huge number of police killing and/or hurting the people they have sworn to serve and protect.


As far as our country, we brought this upon ourselves. We gave government the permission to control us in exchange for handouts, and that control has naturally led to abuse.

Spoken like a true fascist kctim. It’s the minorities, the homosexuals, the immigrants, the poor but never us. The sad thing is all these other countries have the same minorities, homosexuals,immigrants and poor but they still don’t have the police killing them off in such large numbers.

I would keep looking kctim, that tired old dog of an excuse doesn’t hunt anymore.

Rioting should be the very last course of action taken.

Of course it should kctim, but how many more have to die at the hands of the police before you justify the actions of those that are tired of the killings of the strong arm tactics, the abuse of power we see so often today. Has there been any states limiting militarization of the police force? Has there been any national response to the growing problem?

My point is how you are so willing to distort the truth to fit your politics,

Oh please kctim, you guys on the right wouldn’t know the truth if it came out and bit you on the a**. Bundy paid grazing fees for..what…30 years then in the 90’s decided he didn’t have to because he didn’t recognize the federal governments rights in the state of Nevada! The courts, after years ordered the government to move the cattle, the, how do you say it, “citizens showed up to protest its actions” (only you failed to mention these people were armed vigilantes seeking to take the law into their own hands) interfered with the orders of the court. The government stepped back to cool things off not the armed and dangerous vigilantes. That is the truth kctim.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 6, 2015 9:51 AM
Comment #394419

kct, glad to see you have joined some of us in supporting the people of Baltimore. Your first comment seemed to be denigrating them since you finished with LOL. With all of your sighing and LOL’ing it can be a bit difficult to see how you are applying your strict constitutionalism in discussions, however misguided that application might be. You see when you laugh at people out loud that seems to make me think you have no respect for their protest. I don’t believe anyone here would have encouraged the riot but merely tried to understand what pushed the peaceful protest into a riot. It could have been borne of frustration but that does not excuse the outcome it just helps someone understand it, if that is what they are trying to understand. But then if all someone wants to do is laugh at their plight then understanding their plight isn’t what they are interested in.

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