Constitutional right to protest

Americans have the Constitutional right to protest peacefully It is a right, but it is a neural one, i.e. not all protests are actually right or useful and some are bad. I support the rights of people to protest “police violence.” I exercise my right to say that they are mostly wrong. I would do nothing to encourage them.

I used to run a lot in Washington and would sometimes run into protests. They tended to spread across my running paths. I was always polite to them, but I would often have to cut through their lines. We both exercised our rights.

Posted by Christine & John at December 18, 2014 4:08 PM
Comments
Comment #386753

Very true C&J, but it would be nice if people would base their ‘protests’ on reality.

Come to think of it, it would also be nice if people didn’t ‘protest’ the rights of others.

Liberalism, you gotta love it.

Posted by: kctim at December 18, 2014 5:49 PM
Comment #386760

So a first amendment right is a “neural” right! If that is the case why isn’t a second amendment right just as “neural” or for that matter all the rights not listed in the Constitution, wouldn’t they be more “neural” than a specific right listed in the number one spot of the Constitution?

To continue on why isn’t your first amendment right of free speech just as “neural” as their first amendment right of peaceful assembly and redress of grievances?

Kctim, denying the reality of police violence in this country is delusional, not liberalism.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 18, 2014 7:50 PM
Comment #386763

Perhaps you need to to understand the scope of things a bit better C&J, although these guys may need to lighten up just a bit they still keep a watch across the country. Just saying.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 18, 2014 8:11 PM
Comment #386765

j2t2

I simply mean that it is a right. It is not necessarily a good thing. I might have the right to fart on a crowded bus, but it is not a source of celebration for those nearby.

My right of speech is similar. Within wide bounds, I have the right to say what I want, smart or stupid. I don’t expect people to celebrate it, however.

Re police violence - it happens and it is rare and it is certainly not the biggest threat to young black men. Each day seven young black men are killed by other young black men. To the extent that police can help stop this, creating fear and distrust of police takes young black lives. Sharpton is responsible for more black deaths than that cop in Missouri.

Posted by: C&J at December 18, 2014 8:50 PM
Comment #386792

While blaming Sharpton for killing black kids may appease your guilt from not giving this issue it’s due C&J make no mistake, it is wrong. The person at the scene holding the gun or other weapon is the guilty party, no one else. While you may want to make the case Sharpton is guilty because of his efforts I would use the same logic and deem you and conservatives in general guilty as Sharpton for your white washing of police violence.

So C&J listening to you one would assume because blacks kill blacks in larger numbers than cops wrongly kill blacks all is well in the world. I disagree,using your logic, white kill whites in larger numbers than cops wrongly kill whites as well. That being said we still have a problem with the violence wrongly perpetrated by militarized police in this country. Convoluting the issue doesn’t make it less of a problem.

Walking back first amendment rights of the people of this country to protect the authoritarian state has been happening for years C&J. From “free speech zones” to jailing reporters to conservatives deciding protestors are the problem to minimizing these rights as “neural”. It’s sad to see how conservatives are so willing to accept this because the protestors are not the same color or same economic status as conservatives. Remember first they came for….

Posted by: j2t2 at December 19, 2014 7:58 AM
Comment #386795

J2

These protests are about one thing and one thing only: a false belief/need that there is an epidemic of white police officers hunting down and murdering blacks at will. Not only is that false, it is an intentional lie promoted by those who will profit.
IF this was about police violence, these protests might have enough support to be taken seriously.

It has nothing to do with color or status, it’s about facts. If you have a just cause that is supported by facts, you will have support. If you are just spewing hyperbolic talking-points to push personal and partisan agenda’s, you won’t.

Posted by: kctim at December 19, 2014 9:29 AM
Comment #386797
These protests are about one thing and one thing only: a false belief/need that there is an epidemic of white police officers hunting down and murdering blacks at will

BS kctim. That is your misguided version of what the protest is about.

If you have a just cause that is supported by facts, you will have support. If you are just spewing hyperbolic talking-points to push personal and partisan agenda’s, you won’t.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/06/protests-police-brutality_n_6281624.html

which of course makes your previous remark all that much more misguided.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 19, 2014 9:54 AM
Comment #386799

Fact, not BS, J2.
It is why people know the names Mike Brown and Eric Garner, but not Dillon Taylor. It is why Sharpton, Jackson and Obama only talk about Brown and Garner. It is why they pretend it is 1955. It is why the narrative is focused on ‘Hand up, don’t shoot,’ and ‘I can’t breathe,’ instead of resisting arrest. It is why the signs and chants are ‘Black Lives Matter.’
It is why “non-people of color” were told to stand holding hands in solidarity, while blacks held a “die-in” at MU.

Those are facts, J2, not some misguided version.

Facts may be uncomfortable at times, but they shouldn’t be ignored and dismissed as racist or misguided just to support personal opinion.

Posted by: kctim at December 19, 2014 10:57 AM
Comment #386800
It is why people know the names Mike Brown and Eric Garner, but not Dillon Taylor.

Because Sharpton focuses on the civil rights of blacks is no reason to fault him for the rest of us not knowing who Dillon Taylor is. Blaming Sharpton for the problem is BS. He is one man one organization. The nation is focused on police violence against blacks because of the publicity generated by so many questionable shootings by police around the country but it is only 1 part of the equation.

It is why they pretend it is 1955.

If you are suggesting things are better now so they shouldn’t complain then I am just amazed. If your not then what are you saying?

It is why “non-people of color”

Did you really mean “non-people”? of color?

It is why the narrative is focused on ‘Hand up, don’t shoot,’ and ‘I can’t breathe,’ instead of resisting arrest.

As it should be kctim. I will repeat this once again, the police are not the judge jury and executioner. That is not how our system is supposed to work. Yes the police make contact with criminals, that is their job. A law may have been broken or not, a felony committed perhaps. But that doesn’t mean the police have carte blanche to kill an unarmed person. That is excessive force, brutality. The punishment for resisting arrest is not a death sentence in this country.

It seems to me, kctim, that you are suggesting because the media is focused on mostly black kids getting killed the issue is lacking merit. But you are wrong. The protestors are focused on certain blacks because it is people like Sharpton who rally the troops. His forte is dealing with civil rights of black people as it has been since he marched in the 60’s.

But the issue is bigger than just blacks, it is systematic in many police departments in this country as well as in the attitudes of many Americans. The problem is us white guys don’t complain when Dillon Taylor is killed by police and we don’t have any prominent leadership to rally us to protest. The media doesn’t cover it as much because there is no protest, but that isn’t Sharptons fault nor is it those protesting Garner and Brown.

We have switched to guilty until proven innocent due to fear and hatred.

SO what if the cops go to the wrong house and kill someone or kill the dog they are hunting for drugs, that is our attitude and that is why us white guys don’t have a civil rights leader to take up the cause.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 19, 2014 12:47 PM
Comment #386801

J2

I do not fault Sharpton because he uses race to determine whom to care and fight for, I fault him because he instigates for personal profit and gain.

“The nation is focused on police violence against blacks”

That is what I said.

“but it is only 1 part of the equation.”

It is the only part that is getting constant media attention, and the only part that the race baiters and President Obama are talking about. It is why there were riots and why protests are still going on.

“If you are suggesting things are better now so they shouldn’t complain then I am just amazed. If your not then what are you saying?”

I am not suggesting anything. I am saying outright that it is no longer 1955 and that people should stop pretending that the problems of today are anything like the actual injustices that occurred back then.

“Did you really mean “non-people”? of color?”

I didn’t mean anything. That is what it said on the flyer that was handed out by those who staged the misinformed “die-in.”

“As it should be kctim.”

No, it shouldn’t be. IF these protests were focused on all police violence as you say, people would not use race as the determining factor.

“I will repeat this once again, the police are not the judge jury and executioner.”

Nobody says they are.

“But that doesn’t mean the police have carte blanche to kill an unarmed person.”

Irrelevant. The number of police who believe such a thing is so rare it’s not even measurable. Besides, that isn’t even what has happened.

“The punishment for resisting arrest is not a death sentence in this country.”

Of course it’s not. But as has been shown in recent events, resisting arrest has the possibility to lead to death, which is why it’s best to comply, and then fight it out in a court of law.

“It seems to me, kctim, that you are suggesting because the media is focused on mostly black kids getting killed the issue is lacking merit.”

Not at all what I am saying. What I very clearly said was that a protest needs a valid reason in order to get meaningful support. You stated these were valid protests and that race has nothing to do with it. I provided the facts that prove you wrong.

“The protestors are focused on certain blacks because it is people like Sharpton who rally the troops.”

Um, yeah. That is what I have already told you.

“But the issue is bigger than just blacks, it is systematic in many police departments in this country”

No, it’s not systematic. Tens of thousands of Americans have peaceful interaction with police every single day. Actual renegade behavior is rare and almost always based on an individual.

“The problem is us white guys don’t complain when Dillon Taylor is killed by police and we don’t have any prominent leadership to rally us to protest.”

“Us white guys” don’t complain because we wait for the facts and evidence instead of jumping to predetermined conclusions.

“We have switched to guilty until proven innocent due to fear and hatred.”

Officer Wilson is definitely proof of that. Hell, he was tried, convicted and condemned BEFORE anything was known about that case.

“SO what if the cops go to the wrong house and kill someone or kill the dog they are hunting for drugs, that is our attitude and that is why us white guys don’t have a civil rights leader to take up the cause.”

That is the attitude because we have been conditioned to accept the lose of our rights in exchange for materialism. Why care about freedom of choice, when it is constantly being taken from you “for your own good?” Why care about government creating ways to steal property, when it mostly just happens to those with money? Why complain about government, when it gives me money each month?

There are plenty of “leaders” out there speaking against our emerging police state, J2. You just don’t give a crap about them because they don’t support abortion, back the 2nd Amendment, or don’t believe in a nanny state.

Posted by: kctim at December 19, 2014 2:18 PM
Comment #386804
I do not fault Sharpton because he uses race to determine whom to care and fight for, I fault him because he instigates for personal profit and gain.

Exactly how does he “instigate” kctim? Does he encourage black kids to go get themselves shot? Or does he encourage cops top shoot black kids?

It is the only part that is getting constant media attention,

Whose fault is that? Certainly you aren’t blaming Sharpton for that.

It is the only part that is getting constant media attention, and the only part that the race baiters and President Obama are talking about. It is why there were riots and why protests are still going on.

It is the only part for the race baiters, and by that I assume you mean the conservative talking heads, and Obama to talk about kctim. There is no one protesting the Dillon Taylor killing despite your claim of “many leaders”.

I am saying outright that it is no longer 1955 and that people should stop pretending that the problems of today are anything like the actual injustices that occurred back then.

Dead is dead kctim, whether you lynch someone or shoot them. To think 4 guys choking an unarmed man for selling cigarettes isn’t an injustice is just wrong IMHO.

No, it’s not systematic.

The militarization of the police and the excessive force problem seems to be deeply ingrained in some departments.

Officer Wilson is definitely proof of that. Hell, he was tried, convicted and condemned BEFORE anything was known about that case.

Almost got one right kctim, Officer Wilson tried, convicted and condemned Brown that night. He on the other hand wasn’t even tried as the grand jury refused to charge him.

“Us white guys” don’t complain because we wait for the facts and evidence instead of jumping to predetermined conclusions.

Yeah right, conservatives had Wilson innocent and Brown a gangster long before the grand jury refused to indict Wilson and you were complaining all the way about Sharpton.

There are plenty of “leaders” out there speaking against our emerging police state, J2.

Police state! I thought it was just a few renegades kctim. Why aren’t these leaders protesting the Taylor killing, do they believe an unarmed man should be shot by police while walking away from them?

Posted by: j2t2 at December 19, 2014 5:57 PM
Comment #386805

j2t2

There are so few innocent young black men killed by police that we can name them. Some, like Brown, are not even really innocent. Yet each day about seven young black men are killed by other young black men. Sharpton focuses on the wrong problem and stands in the way of moves to solve the real one. That is my logic. Whenever the police make a mistake, it should be investigated. But to pretend that is an epidemic problem is dishonest and destructive.

Re white guilt - I don’t have any. In my life and activities, I have been a net benefit to my society, which includes blacks. Some have done better than I have, rather more have done worse. I don’t ask them to thank me, but I do not accept the criticism of clowns like Sharpton.

Posted by: C&J at December 19, 2014 5:59 PM
Comment #386808

Once again C&J the red herring of black on black killings is no reason to allow our police force to use excessive force in their jobs. Nor is it a benchmark to determine we have no police problem in this country. While we are at it, once again this red herring is a bit misguided as white on white killings are right about the same proportion as is the case with other races.
Without the red herring you have no case that Sharpton should focus on something other than civil rights issues that he has been doing for years. IMHO it is you, kctim and conservatives in general perpetrating the myth of black on black killings that are to blame for the over policing in black neighborhoods that leads to these types of police shootings.

It seems to me you guys like to focus on Sharpton and that may be why you do not realize the extent of police brutality in this country today. Just because Sharpton isn’t there doesn’t mean the killing didn’t happen. Check out the link I gave you in lighten up 2 for a week or two and tell me how we don’t have a police issue in this country. In Albuquerque we do. In other places we don’t know as reporting requirements are voluntary and many cases of police shootings are just not reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/us/albuquerque-police-report-justice-department.html?_r=0

Posted by: j2t2 at December 19, 2014 8:30 PM
Comment #386811
While we are at it, once again this red herring is a bit misguided as white on white killings are right about the same proportion as is the case with other races.

j2t2, I’m sorry, but you will either have to explain this comment or provide the proof. Are you saying that white on white killings are the same ratio as black on black? If you are, then you will have to offer the proof. I can’t except this.

The mayors of most cities have said they place the majority of their police where the majority of crimes are committed. Most crimes are committed in minority neighborhoods. Therefore, when the police are in these neighborhoods, they are looking for crimes committed and people committing them. How can you say it is a myth, when every day in urban minorities, shootings are taking place. I don’t think it is the black on black killings that are the cause of over policing. It is the drug and gang problems. The killings are a result of the drug and gang problems. The following instructions are given by the USDOJ for “Effective Policing and Crime Prevention
A Problem-Oriented Guide for Mayors, City
Managers, and County Executives”

Although the law or policy might compel or constrain some police discretionary decisions, on most matters there are choices to be made from among a range of options. In some instances, police alone should make those choices, but in many instances, the considered views of citizens, community groups, and elected and appointed government officials should inform police choices.
Crime and disorder are not evenly distributed across your community. Rather, they are heavily concentrated: among relatively few offenders, happening to relatively few victims, occurring in relatively few places, and involving relatively few target types. Investing in the data collection and analysis tools necessary to identify the repeat offenders, repeat victims, hot spots, and products most likely to be stolen can greatly help police and local government focus their attention where it is most needed.

http://www.popcenter.org/library/reading/pdfs/MayorsGuide.pdf

So the question would become; where are the high crime areas of a city and who in the city are asking for police protection?

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 19, 2014 9:55 PM
Comment #386825

The left accuses the right of hating Obama. They love to accuse the right of being racist; but what if conservatives dislike of Obama is based upon his governing and not his color? Here is an example from just this week:

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, who created the anti-Muslim film, was jailed after his film was used by the Obama administration as the reason for the Benghazi attack, resulting in the death of 4 Americans. Of course, we have since learned this was a lie. The point is, Obama touted that Nakoula had no right to create this film; hence, Obama was censoring a film producers right to create a film. Yet, this very week, after the North Koreans threatened Sony Film Productions for creating a film about the death of Kim Jon-un, Obama said Sony caved to the threats of North Korea.

In one case the film producer is ostracized for creating and releasing a YouTube trailer of a film he produced; and in another case, the film producer is ostracized for not releasing a film he produced. I am having trouble understanding the logic.

It is also interesting the hacked emails of the Hollywood left, which have been shown to have contained some of the most racist comments toward Obama, Holder, other black actors, and even women; have been completely ignored by the liberal press.

Lastly, Obama gave a good speech about how America was not going to stand for North Korea’s actions, and HE was going to pay them back. Can anyone ever remember when Obama actually followed through with his promises of retribution for actions against Americans?

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 20, 2014 9:19 AM
Comment #386826

Sam,

“Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, who created the anti-Muslim film, was jailed after his film was used by the Obama administration as the reason for the Benghazi attack, resulting in the death of 4 Americans.”

Dude, you could at least try to get your facts straight.

Nakoula was jailed for violating his terms of parole for crimes including Federal fraud charges, check kiting, and attempting to manufacture methamphetamine.
He wasn’t supposed to use aliases or use the internet without the prior permission of his parole officer.

That’s what he was arrested for.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at December 20, 2014 9:54 AM
Comment #386827

j2t2

“But that doesn’t mean the police have carte blanche to kill an unarmed person.”

Unarmed does not = not dangerous. Mike Brown was unarmed, but at 6-4 and 290lbs he was very dangerous and absolutely capable of killing officer Wilson without a weapon. Couple that with the fact he had already committed a felony assault on a police officer, and a strong armed robbery made him an immediate threat to Darrin Wilsons life.

Three things were present, ability, intent, and opportunity. Those three combined made deadly force against Brown reasonable. A private citizen would have been justified in the use of deadly force against Brown. A police officer would definitely have been justified in doing the same.

Posted by: dbs at December 20, 2014 10:13 AM
Comment #386828

j2t2

Police brutality is a problem but I do not believe police brutality is a big problem in the great scheme of problems. That does not mean it is not a concern, but if the protestors want to improve conditions for young black men, there are lots of things they could do that would work better.

Beyond that, the police are what helps protect the community. If you teach people to be afraid and uncooperative, you get less protection. And safety and order are the best anti-poverty program and benefit to the poor.

NYC is safer than it has been in the lifetimes of most people alive today. It might seem ironic in the when talking about more active policing but one result is fewer arrests. Felony arrests in New York are down by about 60,000 a year from 1990 levels. Imprisonment in New York state penitentiaries has declined by 25% since 2000. The city’s jail population has declined 45% since 1992.

And because of the safer streets, thousands of young black lives have been saved.

Reform the police. Reform is a never ending process. But recognize that if you reform in ways that reduce police effectiveness, it kills people.

I would explain this to Sharpton, and I think he would understand. I think he does understand. But he makes his money from racial hatred, so he will not change his ways.


Posted by: C&J at December 20, 2014 10:44 AM
Comment #386829
If you are, then you will have to offer the proof. I can’t except this.

Sam, I am impressed. Good question, what I am saying is not exactly the same roughly the same.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/15/the-trayvon-martin-killing-and-the-myth-of-black-on-black-crime.html

“Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime—86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.”

BTW I don’t disagree with you on the violence being part of drugs and gangs.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 20, 2014 1:03 PM
Comment #386830

Sam here is a link that also links to the DOJ document that goes through the stats in detail. This one goes to 2008 I believe.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2013/07/22/84-of-murders-are-white-on-white/

Posted by: j2t2 at December 20, 2014 1:05 PM
Comment #386831
Mike Brown was unarmed, but at 6-4 and 290lbs he was very dangerous and absolutely capable of killing officer Wilson without a weapon.

dbs, Wilson is 6-4 and 210 isn’t he? Being equipped with a taser, baton and such it would be possible but no easy feat for Wilson to over power him. Unless of course he drove up so close to him he couldn’t get out of the car, but who would do that when confronting someone with the ability to kill him?

Couple that with the fact he had already committed a felony assault on a police officer, and a strong armed robbery made him an immediate threat to Darrin Wilsons life.

The police chief said Wilson had no knowledge of the supposed store incident. The assault is questionable as to what actually happened. Especially since we now know the DA allowed known lies that came from newspaper accounts of Wilson version of events to be part of the grand jury testimony.

The fact still remains he was unarmed.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/darren-wilson/free-pass-for-ferguson-perjury-987452

Three things were present, ability, intent, and opportunity.

So anyone then has the “ability” if they are physically heavier, or what? Intent, he was running away from Wilson, wounded and unarmed how do you suppose he was intending to kill the officer? Opportunity! with his hands in the air, wounded and many feet away from Wilson what opportunity did he have?

Posted by: j2t2 at December 20, 2014 1:33 PM
Comment #386832
Police brutality is a problem but I do not believe police brutality is a big problem in the great scheme of problems.

Perhaps not C&J, but it does interfere with all of us and the rights we have as citizens. I would consider that a problem that needs to be dealt with.

but if the protestors want to improve conditions for young black men, there are lots of things they could do that would work better.

Not if they are dead in the streets or WalMArt shot or choked for some small reason. What specifics do you suggest these protestors do exactly C&J?

Reform the police. Reform is a never ending process. But recognize that if you reform in ways that reduce police effectiveness, it kills people.

The old “we gotta kill them to save them” line C&J? We must give up liberty for safety. That isn’t an answer IMHO.

I would explain this to Sharpton, and I think he would understand. I think he does understand. But he makes his money from racial hatred, so he will not change his ways.

No he may highlight the racial hatred of some police and some extremist groups and people such as the KKK but he makes his money by bringing attention to the civil rights issues of black people in most cases.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 20, 2014 1:44 PM
Comment #386834

j2t2


“So anyone then has the “ability” if they are physically heavier, or what?”

With the mindset, intent and physical ability, yes. Physics is what it is. Size, strength, and age are but just a few considerations. Brown out weighed Wilson by at least 80lbs. That’s a big advantage.

“Intent, he was running away from Wilson,”


No he wasn’t. His wounds were from the front. He was charging Wilson when he was shot.

“wounded and unarmed how do you suppose he was intending to kill the officer?”

He was intending to attack the officer again. He had the ability to kill or seriously injure Wilson because of his size and strength. He was initially wounded when he attacked Wilson in the car, and attempted to take his gun.


” Opportunity! with his hands in the air, wounded and many feet away from Wilson what opportunity did he have?”


His hands were not in the air, the coroners report proves that wasn’t the case. He was shot moving towards the officer with the fatal shot hitting him in the top of the head, and finally stopping him. He was not shot in the back and his hands were not up. The evidences proves this.

Posted by: dbs at December 20, 2014 2:50 PM
Comment #386835

j2t2

One more thing. In this day and age where most people have smart phones why is it there are no videos of this altercation ? If someone had concrete proof that Brown was murdered why wouldn’t they come forward with that evidence ? Surely someone maybe more than one person has video of that altercation.

Posted by: dbs at December 20, 2014 3:00 PM
Comment #386836
“Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, who created the anti-Muslim film, was jailed after his film was used by the Obama administration as the reason for the Benghazi attack, resulting in the death of 4 Americans.”

Dude, you could at least try to get your facts straight.

Nakoula was jailed for violating his terms of parole for crimes including Federal fraud charges, check kiting, and attempting to manufacture methamphetamine.

Rocky…dude; if you spent more time keeping up your end of the conversation, rather than trying to have a “gotcha” moment you might not sound so ignorant. Read my comment again and tell me where I said Nakoula was jailed for making a movie? I didn’t; but what I did was set you up. I knew some pseudo-intellectual from the left would have to jump all over my comment…without reading it.

The answer you should have given was why Obama had a problem with the Muslim film, but no problem why the North Korean film? Obama said the Muslim film caused Muslims to riot and kill Americans; but said the North Korean film should have been shown by Sony, even though the North Koreans threatened to blow up and kill Americans if it was. All I want is an explanation from the left. If you can’t, then just say so. Quit with the “gotcha”.

j2t2

“Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime—86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.”

BTW I don’t disagree with you on the violence being part of drugs and gangs.
Posted by: j2t2 at December 20, 2014 1:03 PM

Comment #386830

Sam here is a link that also links to the DOJ document that goes through the stats in detail. This one goes to 2008 I believe.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2013/07/22/84-of-murders-are-white-on-white/

j2t2, it depends if you are talking about percentages and ratios; or are you talking about actual deaths. I can say that 100% of shuttles that exploded on takeoff did so as a result of faulty O-rings. Were there more than one shuttle that exploded, yes; one on takeoff and one on re-entry. So 50% exploded on takeoff and 50% exploded on re-entry; but that doesn’t change the fact that 100% exploded as a result of a defective O-ring on takeoff.

You claim 94% of black victims were killed by other blacks, and yet an almost equal 86% of white murders were committed by whites; which is both true and false. It depends on the actual number of blacks and whites killed. Remember, the subject of the conversation is why would the police be more active in black neighborhoods, compared to white.

A 2007 special report released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, reveals that approximately 8,000 — and, in certain years, as many as 9,000 African Americans are murdered annually in the United States. This chilling figure is accompanied by another equally sobering fact, that 93% of these murders are in fact perpetrated by other blacks.

Blacks comprise about 13% of the US population; so in other words out of the 41.62 million blacks in America, 8000 to 9000 are killed every year; FBI stats show 5,375 black murders in 2013, and by your numbers 94% are killed by other blacks.

On the other hand, whites make up about 63% or 245.5 million in America and is 2013, only 4,396 murders were committed, and by your numbers 86% were committed by other whites.

From FBI stats:
◾In 2013, Blacks committed 5,375 murders in U.S.
◾in 2013, Whites committed 4396 murders in U.S.

So while your percentages are correct; they are false; White on white murder percentages and black on black percentages are correct, but the actual number of murdered whites is still 1000 lower than the total murder of blacks for 2013. Considering the percentage of whites is 6 times higher than blacks, your numbers are false.

Add to this the prison populations are made up of 54% black vs. 26% white; we definitely see a crime problem in minority areas.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 20, 2014 3:31 PM
Comment #386837

j2t2

Blacks make up 13% of the population but are more than 50% of the murder victims. Whites most kill other whites and blacks mostly kill other blacks, but blacks kill and are killed more often per person.

If blacks were murdered at the same rates white are murdered, there would really be no big problem. The police would not have to be as vigilant in the community.

Re - “Not if they are dead in the streets or WalMArt shot or choked for some small reason. What specifics do you suggest these protestors do exactly C&J?”

They would not. That is the point. An innocent black person has a vanishingly small chance of being killed by the police. On the other hand, murder is the leading cause of death for young black men. Perhaps the protestors are numerically challenged enough to be unable to figure the odds. I believe that they really don’t care. Sharpton does not.

re the recent cases of Brown and Garner - there is no reason to believe the cops had any racial hatred at all. The sergeant on the scene at the Garner incident was black. A majority of NYC police are minority, as they are in many major cities.

Posted by: C&J at December 20, 2014 5:15 PM
Comment #386839

Well it’s begun. Obama, Sharpton, Holder, and De Blasio have blood on their hands. An Asian American and Hispanic have been assassinated as a result of these four men whipping up the blacks into a frenzy. The marches and calls for the deaths of police officers have come to fruition. To those of you who have encouraged and defended this type of action, I hope your satisfied. I hope you are satisfied with the blood letting you called for; a newly married and a father of 2 children were murdered. Tell me, how do the police work with De Blasio now?

De Blasio is disgusting; he was on TV last night making the claim, “It’s a time to think of the families of the dead and not a time for politics”. Not politics today, but it was politics last week. De Blasio and other socialist mayors were calling for police to carry tasers instead of guns. What an idiot. One of the most gun controlled cities in America, but it didn’t stop the bad guys.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 21, 2014 8:28 AM
Comment #386840

The Constitutional right to protest ends when the protestors commit murder.

Posted by: DSP2195 at December 21, 2014 9:08 AM
Comment #386841
You claim 94% of black victims were killed by other blacks, and yet an almost equal 86% of white murders were committed by whites; which is both true and false. It depends on the actual number of blacks and whites killed.

No it doesn’t. It depends upon the total number of blacks murdered in any given year and of that number the total number of those murders perpetrated by blacks or”black on black” murders. The same is true for whites or “white on white” murders. For every 10 killings 9 (when you round) are by people of the same race as the victim. Using black on black as justification to vilify the protestors is wrong.

Remember, the subject of the conversation is why would the police be more active in black neighborhoods, compared to white.

Actually Sam the issue was the conservatives need to use black on black killings to insist Sharpton was wrong for protesting about the police shooting black kids. What I said was the red herring was a myth. This is due to the fact that for all races the figure is roughly the same. The links I provided pointed out reasons for this.

Add to this the prison populations are made up of 54% black vs. 26% white; we definitely see a crime problem in minority areas.

Sam, yes that is why I was suggesting over policing may be a problem. Her is an example of over policing in black neighborhoods

http://www.kcci.com/news/central-iowa/iowa-ranks-worst-in-aclu-drug-arrest-study/20413190

Sam, you are quick to blame the protestors, and ever so quick to blame Obama. I would suggest the police who have been killing have blood on their hands over this sad and unfortunate incident. I would also suggest those serving on grand juries that consistently refuse to bring charges against the police also have blood on their hands. I would suggest those that deny the brutality have blood on their hands. But most of all the shooter has blood on his hands. When justice isn’t served it seems to bring more injustice.

If blacks were murdered at the same rates white are murdered, there would really be no big problem. The police would not have to be as vigilant in the community.

Seriously C&J! I disagree, it would still be a big problem for both blacks and whites IMHO. Look at other industrialized countries around the world and the number of murders in the USA is appalling. Look at the same countries ans the number of officer involved shooting is appalling.
Don’t you wonder why with such increased “vigilance” in the black neighborhoods the police haven’t stopped the larger number of murders.

An innocent black person has a vanishingly small chance of being killed by the police.

Tell that to John Crawford C&J. But once again you miss the point so let me try to clarify this, the police are not the judge jury and executioner in our system of laws. Just because you have committed some crime or the police think you have committed some crime doesn’t mean the police have a right/obligation/duty/whatever to kill you.

Another thing you seem to forget is the protestors are protesting on civil rights issues, the governments use of excessive force. Sharpton et al are civil rights leaders. It is once again a red herring you are using to criticize the protestors and their leaders.

there is no reason to believe the cops had any racial hatred at all. The sergeant on the scene at the Garner incident was black. A majority of NYC police are minority, as they are in many major cities.

Nor is there a reason to believe the cops don’t have any racial hatred at all C&J. The Ferguson police dept. seems to be predominately white despite the city being majority black. But lets say they aren’t racially hateful, the police departments in general C&J, that still leaves the individual officers. Not only that it leads us to a different problem, the use of excessive force is systematic, it is what they are taught, “shoot first ask later” training. Or perhaps it is racial fear that causes the police to pull the trigger so quickly and so many times.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 21, 2014 10:53 AM
Comment #386843

“Another thing you seem to forget is the protestors are protesting on civil rights issues”

“WHAT DO WE WANT……DEAD COPS……WHEN DO WE WANT THEM…..NOW”

Sounds like civil rights protest to me.

Posted by: tdobson at December 21, 2014 12:48 PM
Comment #386845

You are exactly correct tdobson.

Sam, you are quick to blame the protestors, and ever so quick to blame Obama. I would suggest the police who have been killing have blood on their hands over this sad and unfortunate incident. I would also suggest those serving on grand juries that consistently refuse to bring charges against the police also have blood on their hands. I would suggest those that deny the brutality have blood on their hands. But most of all the shooter has blood on his hands. When justice isn’t served it seems to bring more injustice.

j2t2, these are simply the inflammatory talking points of Sharpton, Obama, and Holder. The very things you have said, came out of their mouths.

Why wouldn’t we blame the protestors, “WHAT DO WE WANT……DEAD COPS……WHEN DO WE WANT THEM…..NOW”

And why wouldn’t we blame Obama, Holder, and Sharpton? Isn’t it their rhetoric that has inflamed these protestors to make such comments.

You do understand the Grand Juries are made up of American citizens. They are chosen for jury duty by random; they are not chosen by skin color of ethnicity. How can you use Sharpton’s words and disparage American’s who are doing their duty. Unless you can name another country who has a better judicial system than the United States, I would suggest to you that justice has been served. Rather than allowing a jury of our piers to decide in guilt, perhaps you would rather Emperor Obama sit upon his throne and decide the guilt or innocence of people. j2t2, I know nothing about you; but from your comments I would believe you are either black with a huge chip of injustice on your shoulder; or you are just another white guy who believes America is an evil place and has robbed the world of it’s resources.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 21, 2014 4:19 PM
Comment #386846

“Unless you can name another country who has a better judicial system than the United States, I would suggest to you that justice has been served.”

Really? The US executes prisoners. Ever see a list of the countries left in the world that still execute prisoners? It is humiliating for this country to belong to that set, just embarrassing. Almost any major industrialized country in the world has a better justice system that the US. We incarcerate more people- by far- than any other country in the world… We shoot and murder each other with abandon in a nation awash with firearms, we regularly experience mass shootings yet do nothing, our white collar criminals walk while New York’s finest kill a man on the street in an incident involving selling untaxed cigarettes, ON VIDEO… And then the DA’s and the cops ask ‘who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?’

The protestors are wrong to call for “dead cops.” In this particular case, the killer was a felon with a long record who had already wounded his girlfriend and was looking for a reason to commit suicide by cop, or just suicide.

And the cops & DA’s are wrong if they blame anyone but themselves. Killing unarmed American citizens without consequence is completely unacceptable.

We have a constitutional right to our own life- NOTHING is more fundamental than that- and a right to trial by a jury of our peers. A real trial. Not a kangaroo Grand Jury proceeding. And when our justice system fails to protect those rights, then the police become perceived as an oppressive force to be feared, rather than upholders of law and order.

It is terrible that this happened to those two cops. But the fact the killer shot them as a supposed act of revenge reveals there are BIG underlying problems with our society that need to be addressed.

Posted by: phx8 at December 21, 2014 4:58 PM
Comment #386847

I don’t have a copy of the constitution with me at the moment, but I don’t recall anything in it that fundamentally protects the right to one’s own life.
Beyond that, I know of no instance of a person being killed by a cop without resisting arrest. I would expect when someone resists arrest, the police will use whatever force they have to use to subdue the suspect.
As far as the grand jury, citizens are appointed to serve. You might some day be appointed to serve on one. Would you be a part of a “kangaroo court?” When our leaders like the President, the Atty General, and Mayor of a major city sympathize with the thugs who are demonstrating, let them block streets, burn innocent businesses, and let them chant that they want dead cops and don’t even criticize them, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN? It was and is a time bomb waiting to go off.

Posted by: tdobson at December 21, 2014 6:22 PM
Comment #386848
j2t2, these are simply the inflammatory talking points of Sharpton, Obama, and Holder.

Well then, Sam, I guess it must be true. I say good for them. Instead of putting their heads in the sand and ignoring the facts they spoke out as well.

My god phx8, you had better watch out or you too will be accused of using the 3 black guys inflammatory talking points. I just can’t believe you would tell the truth when the correct answer is of course “we are number one”. Didn’t you get your conservative talking points decree this morning?

Rather than allowing a jury of our piers to decide in guilt, perhaps you would rather Emperor Obama sit upon his throne and decide the guilt or innocence of people. j2t2,

Sam a trial by jury would be when a jury of our peers would find us guilty or innocent. The grand jury decides if criminal charges should be brought against someone. America is one of but a few countries that still have a grand jury system. So whilst your anger has led you to one false conclusions after another with this Emperor thing it is just silliness and you should be able to do better than that.

I know nothing about you; but from your comments I would believe you are either black with a huge chip of injustice on your shoulder; or you are just another white guy who believes America is an evil place and has robbed the world of it’s resources.

Wrong on both counts Sam. I’m just a guy who doesn’t have his head so far up the conservative movements ass that I can see where we are as a country and what we could be. I’m just a guy who believes in liberty and justice for all not liberty and justice for the few, as most conservatives think. That is why we disagree.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 21, 2014 8:26 PM
Comment #386849

“nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”
Amendment 5

“nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”
Amendment 14

Resisting arrest is not an excuse for depriving an unarmed citizen of his or her life. Chokeholds and shooting a citizen multiple times are not allowed.

So sympathizing with “thugs”- oh wait, is that how conservatives now refer to American citizens when they walk down the street?- Pardon me- all Americans are “thugs” from the point of view of the police- thank you for clarifying that. So, when politicians sympathize with the dead victims, they are at fault?

Posted by: phx8 at December 21, 2014 8:31 PM
Comment #386850

So a grand jury is not made up of our piers? They do not determine if there is enough evidence to bring it to trial? Okay, my bad…what do they do?

I think your a guy who has his head stuck up his own ass.

Liberty and justice for all…except for the cops that were murdered by an Obama, Holder, Sharpton worshipper.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 21, 2014 8:53 PM
Comment #386851

part of due process of law is to take a suspect into custody. If the suspect resists, force can and should be used up to and including lethal force. Surely you know this.
The thugs were walking down the street chanting “WHAT DO WE WANT?…..DEAD COPS……WHEN DO WE WANT IT……NOW” That my friend is thuggery.

Posted by: tdobson at December 21, 2014 9:01 PM
Comment #386852

tdobson, “That my friend is thuggery”; not in the mind of an Obama lover. These leftist are either black, or wanna be blacks. They either believe the world owes them a living, or they believe America is an evil country that has stolen the raw materials and riches of the world. Obama hates America; we are part of the Colonialism that his dad taught him to hate. The riots, protests, and killing of police are exactly what Obama, Holder, and Sharpton want. If it gets bad enough, perhaps Obama can institute martial law.

It’s a shame the country has come to this; we have a president who has created race problems. The American people believe racism is worse now than it was when Obama took office. What has Obama or Holder ever done to help race problems? Nothing… Well, they stirred up this hornets nest, 2 cops are dead in NYC and another in FL. Where does it go from here? And what do we get from the idiots on the left…”the cops got what they deserved”? I believe, as time goes by and as Democrats lose more political positions, we will see the true liberalism rear it’s ugly head.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 21, 2014 9:22 PM
Comment #386853

j2t2

you are missing the statistical point re black and white murders. The rate of black murder is much higher and they are most likely killed by other blacks.

The rate of white murders is much lower. They are more likely to be killed by other whites, although blacks kill whites more frequently than the reverse.

If blacks had murder rates similar to whites, there would be no crisis of murder in the black community and American murder rates would resemble those lower rates we see in Europe. The police would need to be less active in the community.

Black leaders conflate murder of blacks (mostly by other blacks) with killings by the police. This is dishonest. This is why I and others point to the black homicide rate. If you looked at the number of blacks killed by police, it is vanishingly small as a part of the population. If you look at innocent blacks killed by police, almost zero.

The protestors have signs saying black lives matter and they are right. But if you want to address the risk to black lives, the police are not the place to look.

Re “Don’t you wonder why with such increased “vigilance” in the black neighborhoods the police haven’t stopped the larger number of murders” - the numbers HAVE gone down remarkably. In the 1990s, there were around 2000 murders in NYC. Last year there were only about 300.

Re - “But once again you miss the point so let me try to clarify this, the police are not the judge jury and executioner in our system of laws.” We agree on this and so do the police. These are NOT extrajudicial killings (which has a specific definition). These are in the Brown case a cop protecting his own life from a violent assailant and in the Garner case a mistake while apprehending a suspect resisting arrest. In neither case did the cop wish to kill the suspect.

Re Ferguson cops - the community used to be 99% white. Do you fire all existing cops when neighborhoods change. And do you believe black cops should not patrol white areas? That would be racist. You should join me in rejecting racism.


Posted by: C&J at December 22, 2014 9:30 AM
Comment #386854

Sam,

“Rocky…dude; if you spent more time keeping up your end of the conversation, rather than trying to have a “gotcha” moment you might not sound so ignorant. Read my comment again and tell me where I said Nakoula was jailed for making a movie? I didn’t; but what I did was set you up. I knew some pseudo-intellectual from the left would have to jump all over my comment…without reading it.”

I bow to your mastery of subterfuge, however I find it interesting that, while your “gotcha” shows off your superior intellect, my “gotcha” merely shows my ignorant pseudo-intellectualism.

Frankly what I see here is more of the same blatant hypocrisy from the right.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at December 22, 2014 9:45 AM
Comment #386855

Rocky,
My favorite quote in this thread from Sam Jones:

“Obama hates America; we are part of the Colonialism that his dad taught him to hate.”

It seems he never got over the British losing their colony to the Americans. Why, oh why, can’t people just be happy with colonialism? Curse you, Obama!

Posted by: phx8 at December 22, 2014 10:14 AM
Comment #386856

J2

Sorry I didn’t get back earlier, holiday’s and all.

Sharpton and his ilk “instigate” by inserting racism where it is not justified. By false claims of victimization. By promoting a racist motive BEFORE the facts are known.

“Whose fault is that? Certainly you aren’t blaming Sharpton for that.”

That’s not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether these protests were about police violence, or if they are about perceived police violence targeting mainly blacks.

“There is no one protesting the Dillon Taylor killing despite your claim of “many leaders”.”

I think you are talking yourself in circles, my friend. People do question why all these people who supposedly care so much about police violence, don’t care about the white Taylor. They do question why the media gives the story no attention.

“Dead is dead kctim, whether you lynch someone or shoot them. To think 4 guys choking an unarmed man for selling cigarettes isn’t an injustice is just wrong IMHO.”

Come on J2. The officers didn’t decide to go and choke people breaking the law because they were bored. Both Brown and Garner dies as a result of them resisting arrest.

“The militarization of the police and the excessive force problem seems to be deeply ingrained in some departments.”

Yes, IN SOME, but not all as people are insinuating.

“Almost got one right kctim, Officer Wilson tried, convicted and condemned Brown that night. He on the other hand wasn’t even tried as the grand jury refused to charge him.”

Even IF any of that were true, Wilson is still afforded his rights of innocent until proven guilty.

“Yeah right, conservatives had Wilson innocent and Brown a gangster long before the grand jury refused to indict Wilson and you were complaining all the way about Sharpton.”

Actually, no. People such as myself were saying exactly what we were saying in the Zimmerman case: let’s wait for the actual facts and evidence BEFORE coming to a judgement. As more came to be known about what actually happened, the more the ‘hands up don’t shoot’ story did not fit.

“Police state! I thought it was just a few renegades kctim.”

Sigh. Leave your politics to the side for a minute and look at what is actually being said.
The violence aspect of it IS being done by a few, but the police state involves so much more than violence. Police, given permission by government, violate more peoples rights every day than they kill an innocent in decades.
That is why I say that we have to get past the BS claims of racism and bring attention to the matter as a whole.

Posted by: kc_tim at December 22, 2014 10:25 AM
Comment #386858

phx8,

Also in the rush to fix the blame instead of the problem, no one has mentioned the NYC coroner who proclaimed Gardner’s death a homicide.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at December 22, 2014 11:08 AM
Comment #386859
I think you are talking yourself in circles, my friend. People do question why all these people who supposedly care so much about police violence, don’t care about the white Taylor. They do question why the media gives the story no attention.

No circles at all my friend. Yes people do question the motives of the black civil rights leaders and protestors but that doesn’t mean the questions have merit. Lets remember conservatives have been on a tear this past few years trying to convince minorities that aren’t full fledged racist, to the point of calling them race baiters, racist and such for trying to protect their civil rights. With all the propaganda I’m not surprised people, meaning conservatives, are questioning this. If you don’t buy into the propaganda and realize Sharpton et al are civil rights leaders of the black community then the question remains where are all the leaders of the police violence groups you speak of and why aren’t they protesting the shooting death of Taylor?

Come on J2. The officers didn’t decide to go and choke people breaking the law because they were bored. Both Brown and Garner dies as a result of them resisting arrest.

Whether it is racism, racial fear, steroids, authoritarian attitude, or the police thinking their job gives them the right to violate the civil rights of anyone for walking down the middle of the street, or selling cigarettes these people are still dead without the benefit of a trial. Once again let me say I don’t necessarily think all or even most of the shootings are because of full out racial hatred by the individual police involved kctim but when it comes to black kids they seem to get less of a chance then others. I have noticed several cops who have been outed for overtly racist statements on facebook lately so to think racism doesn’t exist in police is just wrong.

I suspect it is a combination of these things and the way police are taught in this country. What I do know is the number of police involved deaths in this country in the previous month exceed the number of police involved deaths in Great Britain since the early 1900’s. So whilst the problem isn’t entirely due to the police the problem of excessive force is prevalent in this country.


The violence aspect of it IS being done by a few, but the police state involves so much more than violence.

kctim, the police are given permission by we the people, they are the government,they enforce the laws of the town city county state and country. The violence is more than just a few police and it is growing. I agree it is not all or a majority of police but the majority protect the growing number of police who use excessive violence.

Not only the police themselves but the people of this country who support the use of violence with the flimsy excuses of “resisting arrest” and “I feel threatened” are responsible for the growing numbers of police involved killings, hell they regularly shoot dogs these days for no reason.


Posted by: j2t2 at December 22, 2014 11:25 AM
Comment #386860
So a grand jury is not made up of our piers? They do not determine if there is enough evidence to bring it to trial? Okay, my bad…what do they do?

In the case of Wilson a jury of his peers didn’t determine innocence or guilt, the grand jury decides if the person should be charged not innocence or guilt.

I think your a guy who has his head stuck up his own ass.

Boy oh boy Sam this is why we critique the message not the messenger it just continues to escalate, so no your momma’s ass.

Liberty and justice for all…except for the cops that were murdered by an Obama, Holder, Sharpton worshipper.

Such hatred Sam blaming the three black guys for the actions of one crazy guy. Does this mean you and the NRA are responsible for the deaths of 50 people killed by James Holmes and Seung Cho or is that the black guys fault as well.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 22, 2014 11:47 AM
Comment #386861

SO C&J you justify your dislike of Sharpton and what he is protesting with the reasoning “The protestors have signs saying black lives matter and they are right. But if you want to address the risk to black lives, the police are not the place to look.”

SO let me repeat, Sharpton is a civil rights leader protesting the use of excessive force on black kids. He has the right to protest the use of excessive force by the police even if it is only one use of excessive force by police. It is a civil rights issue.

To suggest he protest the acts of criminals committing crimes isn’t a civil rights issue. Suggesting black on black crime is what he should be protesting is a red herring as it is like saying we, us white guys, shouldn’t protest the excessive use of force by police because white on white crime kills more people than the excessive use of force by police. It is just not relevant to the civil rights issue. A red herring when it comes to logic.

You and the conservative media are simply using this red herring as a means to allow the excessive use of force by police. By making Sharpton the bad guy with these red herring arguments you are protecting the police that use excessive force. By trying to paint Sharpton as a racebaiter because he is a civil rights leader you once again use the illogical red herring to muddle the issue instead of using logic to tell us why you believe the excessive use of force is acceptable and why we should promote the excessive use of force by police if that is your opinion.

These are in the Brown case a cop protecting his own life from a violent assailant

That remains to be seen C&J it seems the DA allowed witnesses he knew to be lying to testify, this might get a do over or the feds may chose to get to the bottom of it. Either way lets not forget JJE(the police are not the judge jury and executioner for a reason).

and in the Garner case a mistake while apprehending a suspect resisting arrest.

The coroner ruled it a homicide not a “mistake”. When the guy you are choking is subdued by the other 4 police and is telling you he can’t breathe and you keep choking him is it really a mistake?

In neither case did the cop wish to kill the suspect.

I don’t know how you know that but even so the suspect is still dead, over cigarettes and walking down the street.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 22, 2014 12:18 PM
Comment #386862

j2t2

Yes, I think the deaths of a few people at the hands of police is an issue but not an epidemic. And we need to make distinctions. The Garner case was an accident. The Brown case was self defense. They are similar in no way.

My complaint re Sharpton is that he does not see (or care about) the big picture. He is like those people who oppose vaccinations because a few people have bad reactions. The real disease is black on black murder. To the extent he weakens the police, he increases this.

Re the Wilson case, nothing “remains to be seen.” I believe in rule of law. The process was fair. We know that Holder would hang Wilson on anything he could. Since we see nothing yet, we can say that he has nothing.

Brown was violent. We saw him be violent that very day. Some question if Wilson knew Brown had been violent. Maybe there is doubt. But there is no doubt that Brown knew he had been violent and he might have assumed the cop would be trouble.

Brown was NOT killed for walking down the street. Even in the most charitable circumstances, we know Brown had committed assault.

Re the cops motives - why would anybody want to do that. Consider the Brown case. Wilson did not know him. And after the incident Wilson risked charges, his career was ruined. To suggest that he wanted to kill a random kid is not just insulting; it is pretty stupid.


Posted by: C&J at December 22, 2014 1:14 PM
Comment #386866
Yes, I think the deaths of a few people at the hands of police is an issue but not an epidemic.

So …. we should wait until it becomes an epidemic, and at what point would you suggest it is an actual epidemic and should be dealt with. Let me guess when it reaches the rate of black on black killings? Are you taking into account the number of people other than blacks killed by police for “resisting arrest” and those just brutalized and not killed? How about those that don’t make the media.

The real disease is black on black murder.

IMHO C&J the two issues, police violence and the murder rate are completely different although some of the answers may apply to both issues. The murder rate in this country is way to high trying to focus on BoB and forget WoW or HoH or AoA killings is not the answer, which is why I consider bringing the BoB killings up on civil rights issues is a red herring.


To the extent he weakens the police, he increases this.

C&J really! oh don’t stand up for civil rights because then the police won’t be able to ….Really! Are you suggesting the answer to black on black murder is cop on black murder! Or if not the answer a means to reduce the number of murders? The only way to save them is to kill them! Really!

Re the cops motives - why would anybody want to do that. Consider the Brown case. Wilson did not know him. And after the incident Wilson risked charges, his career was ruined. To suggest that he wanted to kill a random kid is not just insulting; it is pretty stupid.

It seems to me the chance of police being charged with excessive fore type crimes is minimal judging by the 3 grand juries that didn’t return and indictment. Pretty stupid! A wounded guy running away from Wilson ordered to stop after an alleged altercation when you are by yourself without back up, why not just call for back up and arrest him at the hospital or wherever the trail of blood leads later. Instead of shooting him 7 times why not 6? or 5? certainly the last shot, the fatal shot, wasn’t needed. Doesn’t that suggest that he did want to kill Brown instead of bring him in to stand trial for his crimes?
Which is the real issue here C&J. The one thing many of these incidents have in common is the number of times the victim is shot with a deadly weapon. Lets remember the job of the police is to bring the suspect in for trial not leave them dead in the streets.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 22, 2014 2:23 PM
Comment #386869

j2t2

We ARE standing up for civil rights. We properly adjudicated the recent incidents. They went through complete grand jury judgements. They were NOT racially motivated. If Holder cannot find that, nobody can.

Re wait until it becomes an epidemic - arrests are DECLINING. It is becoming less of a problem. This is not 1964.

Re murder rates - BoB is so much higher than the others. That is a natural place to start.

Re Wilson - He showed bad judgement. But not criminal intent or the kind of gross negligence that the jury would indict. If Brown had behaved reasonably, as you or I would have done, he would be alive today. The person most responsible for Brown’s death was Brown. We are not saying here that he deserved to die for being dumb and aggressive. But it was the result.

I have written before that police have become too aggressive in fighting crime. But it is not a race issue. MORE whites die from police incidents. But even here, the numbers are small compared with the population.

Posted by: C&J at December 22, 2014 2:57 PM
Comment #386870

j2t2

I think the question is whether we want to move beyond race and make things better for all, or if we want to wallow in the past.

Posted by: C&J at December 22, 2014 3:00 PM
Comment #386872

This conversation is going nowhere; if the left cannot understand that most crime is committed in minority neighborhoods and that it is DOJ instructions to Mayors to concentrate their police force IN the high crime areas; then we are just going in circles. For some reason the left believes that past police brutality toward blacks, in the southern states, and during the 40’s and 50’s is now happening in northern and western cities; who are controlled by Democrats. We know that the southern states were controlled by Democrats up until the last couple of decades. When those same states began to turn red; the cases of racism began to decline. The northern states, who were Republican, were supposedly segregated, but now, as these northern states and cities have been taken over by Democrats, we find racism has reared its ugly head. The left is unable to understand that divisive comments by Obama, Holder, De Blasio, and Sharpton have caused violent acts by protestors. When Sharpton starts a protest rally, and shortly after starting the rally the chants become, “WHAT DO WE WANT?…..DEAD COPS……WHEN DO WE WANT IT……NOW”; when Sharpton fails to correct the comments of the protesters; then logically, the blame can be placed in only one place…at Sharpton. Unless the left can understand the nature of these inflammatory remarks, then there is o use in talking.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 22, 2014 3:30 PM
Comment #386873

Sam

You make a good point re where the alleged brutality occurs. Most of it is in cities controlled, by Democrats. Presumably, the progressives should have solved these problems already.

Posted by: C&J at December 22, 2014 4:05 PM
Comment #386878

Fox Affiliate 45 in Baltimore faked the “kill the cop” chant through creative editing. They have apologized.

http://foxbaltimore.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/fox45-apologizes-error-newscast-34622.shtml#.VJjDd14AO

Posted by: phx8 at December 22, 2014 10:23 PM
Comment #386880

That’s interesting phx8 but it’s not the chant we were referring to in New York “WHAT DO WE WANT?…..DEAD COPS……WHEN DO WE WANT IT……NOW”
As for the clip you reference, they admitted the mistake. The station apologized and invited a protester to a live interview. Sounds responsible to me.

Posted by: tdobson at December 23, 2014 6:05 AM
Comment #386882

Sam,

“Unless the left can understand the nature of these inflammatory remarks, then there is o use in talking.”

This statement is only partially correct.

Unless all of us can agree that there are idiots of all stripes, then there is no middle ground for that agreement.

You wish to blame everybody involved except the suspected prison gang member that had made it known on social media he wanted to “kill some cops”.

As for the chanters, as I said, there are idiots everywhere.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at December 23, 2014 9:18 AM
Comment #386885
This conversation is going nowhere;

That Sam is because we simply cannot buy into the red herrings myths and your illogical hatred of Obama, Sharpton and Holder, who you falsely blame for the crazy guy killing the cops. That dog don’t hunt.

Sorry, we would like to believe the conservative meme of racism only exists in the black community but you keep trying to blame the 3 black guys for the crazy guys actions. Yet when the shoe was on the other foot when crazies were killing kids at school and in movie theaters you guys told us it wasn’t the NRA and our gun nuts that were responsible for the killings. Can’t have both ways just cause of your hatred for the three black guys.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 23, 2014 10:59 AM
Comment #386890

Rocky Marks, you have no idea what triggered the events that led to 2 police being killed. By your own comments, you agree that inflammatory remarks were made.

j2t2, your whole premise is based upon my “illogical hatred” of Obama, Sharpton, and Holder. The premise is false, therefore your conclusions are false. I included the comments of De Blasio, and I believe he is not black.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 23, 2014 2:41 PM
Comment #386891
Lastly, Obama gave a good speech about how America was not going to stand for North Korea’s actions, and HE was going to pay them back. Can anyone ever remember when Obama actually followed through with his promises of retribution for actions against Americans?

Lets ask Bin Laden if he thinks the follow through was sufficient. Or every conservatives favorite, Vladimir Putin if the embargo is a joke. Or better yet lets ask the Kim’s how it feels to get their internet hacked.(not that Sony is an American company)

http://dailymail.com.ng/united-states-shut-down-north-koreas-internet-after-threat-about-bombing-usa-white-house/


1.”Well it’s begun. Obama, Sharpton, Holder, and De Blasio have blood on their hands.”


2.”j2t2, these are simply the inflammatory talking points of Sharpton, Obama, and Holder. The very things you have said, came out of their mouths.”

3.”And why wouldn’t we blame Obama, Holder, and Sharpton? Isn’t it their rhetoric that has inflamed these protestors to make such comments.”

4.”The riots, protests, and killing of police are exactly what Obama, Holder, and Sharpton want.”

5.”Liberty and justice for all…except for the cops that were murdered by an Obama, Holder, Sharpton worshipper.”

6.”The left is unable to understand that divisive comments by Obama, Holder, De Blasio, and Sharpton have caused violent acts by protestors.”

These are your comments Sam. Obama 6, Sharpton 6 Holder 6 De Blasio 2.

So does Ted Nugent, the NRA and many other conservatives have those kids that were killed at the schools blood on their hands? Did their rhetoric inflame these killers? Did their divisive remarks cause violent acts? Is it a case of liberty and justice for all …..except for the kids killed at these schools by a Ted Nugent and NRA worshiper or as we like to say an ammosexual.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 23, 2014 3:27 PM
Comment #386892

j2t2, I was looking for the false premise of hating these people, but couldn’t find it. However, I agree I said such things.

But speaking of the NRA, I found this Ohio NRA link on a FB post:

MIAMI TOWNSHIP, Ohio (WDTN) – Miami Township Police are confirming the shooting that left a juvenile male dead Saturday started over an attempted robbery of athletic shoes.

According to police, three juvenile males from Middletown approached two adult males outside the Dayton Mall around 10:00 a.m. Saturday. They say one of the juveniles produced a gun and demanded merchandise from the adult males. Police say one of the males, who had a valid concealed carry weapon permit, pulled out a gun of his own and shot the teen who had the gun. That teen, identified as Jawaad Jabbar, 16, died from a single gunshot wound.

The men were at the mall to attend a limited athletic shoe release sale. Police say the two groups did not know each other and the only motive known is that of aggravated robbery to gain control of another’s property.

Sgt. Jay Phares said the teen didn’t make it to the mall in time to get in line for the shoes. “This was a random act of ‘I want something that person has and I’m going to take it from them by any means’,” said Sgt. Phares.

Two juveniles with the victim are in juvenile detention. They are not charged pending further investigation. Police are investigating whether they too had weapons.

“It is tragic that someone lost their lives over tennis shoes, possibly,” said Sgt. Phares.

http://wdtn.com/2014/12/22/mall-shooting-over-athletic-shoes/

What should we do about this legally armed American? Should we toast him? I don’t think it was about shoes; I think it was about a black teenager who pulled a gun on the wrong guy. Thank God for conceal carry, right j2t2?

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 23, 2014 4:08 PM
Comment #386900
What should we do about this legally armed American?

Seems to me the cops have investigated and found this killing to be justified Sam. Other than the mall didn’t allow concealed carry in the mall.Are you suggesting something else needs to be done?

Should we toast him?

Does he wanted to be toasted? I would imaging he is probably thankful things went his way and a bit sad he had to kill another human being. Maybe you mean toasted in another way.

I don’t think it was about shoes; I think it was about a black teenager who pulled a gun on the wrong guy.

How do you know the victim was black are you assuming that because he was stealing and whites don’t do that or he was stealing tennis shoes and only blacks do that or because his name sounds black to you Sam? While we are at it did you assume the shooter was white, I didn’t see anything that tells us one way or the other.

Thank God for conceal carry, right j2t2?

Open carry may have saved a life Sam.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 23, 2014 8:59 PM
Comment #386901
I was looking for the false premise of hating these people, but couldn’t find it.

Sam, your words demonstrated your hatred for Obama IMHO. When you have to spout the conservative talking points towards Obama without regard for truth it points to an “intense dislike” for him. The fact is those statements pulled from your previous comments on this thread are the false premises you speak of.

“Giuliani on propaganda ‘that everyone should hate the police’

After the deaths of two police officers in New York City on Dec. 20, Giuliani appeared on Fox News and blamed President Barack Obama for anti-police “propaganda” that eventually led to their shooting.

“We’ve had four months of propaganda, starting with the president, that everybody should hate the police,” Giuliani said. “The protests are being embraced, the protests are being encouraged. The protests, even the ones that don’t lead to violence, a lot of them lead to violence, all of them lead to a conclusion: The police are bad, the police are racist. That is completely wrong.”

Actually, Obama has said nothing of the kind. Throughout all of his comments since August, Obama has continuously encouraged people to work with the police to find solutions to public mistrust. He has repeatedly emphasized the importance of law enforcement in communities of color and the fact that police officers have a dangerous job. We rated Giuliani’s comments that Obama encouraged hatred of the police as Pants on Fire.”

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/dec/23/fact-checking-ferguson-and-police-issues-2014/

Posted by: j2t2 at December 23, 2014 11:26 PM
Comment #386910

j2t2, how did I know he was black….Duh…his picture in the news site??? Are you trying to create a conspiracy by me calling him black?

Sam, your words demonstrated your hatred for Obama IMHO.

No j2t2, it is your warped mind that has created the scenario that I hate anyone. Unless you can quote me saying I hated someone, this conversation is finished.

Regarding your comments of what Obama said; they are silly. Obama has repeatedly blamed police, from the MA professor, to Sanford, to Ferguson, to NY. He has shown his contempt for the police by claiming Sharpton to be his racial advisor, and it is Sharpton who led the protest that chanted “What do we want, dead cops; when do we want them, now”. Any attempt by you to say any different is nothing more than the latest liberal talking points. Like Daugherty, you are nothing more than an Obama lover and will defend him to your last breath. So any further discussion is done in vain.

Posted by: Sam Jones at December 24, 2014 11:02 AM
Comment #386916
how did I know he was black….Duh…his picture in the news site??

I watched the whole video in your link and didn’t see a picture of the dead guy Sam.


Sam prove it with the Obama quotes, it’s not just me it’s politifact that is saying that comments like yours, the 6 quoted above, are pants on fire lies. Now you seem to be jumping to more foolishness. Now it is “he is associated with Sharpton”. Hell Sam Sharpton isn’t even guilty of the charges you are throwing at him. Spreading lies is a form hatred isn’t it Sam, and that is what you are doing.

Like Daugherty, you are nothing more than an Obama lover and will defend him to your last breath. So any further discussion is done in vain.

Sam, only losers criticize the messenger instead of the message, Those that cannot use truth and logic to defend their claims but must call someone an “Obama lover” if they don’t buy into your lies.

I am sorry you cannot deal with the truth and have to resort to misleading propaganda to keep your hatred going. But don’t use the nonsensical “Any attempt by you to say any different is nothing more than the latest liberal talking points” as proof of your lie. Show us proof the Sharpton lead the march in NYC Sam it’s that simple, put up or shut up.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 24, 2014 3:37 PM
Post a comment