Hands up, don't shoot

This has become a sign of protest. Let’s hope it catches on. If Michael Brown had put his hands up and said don’t shoot, he would be alive today and nobody outside Missouri would ever have heard of Ferguson.

Posted by Christine & John at December 4, 2014 4:14 PM
Comments
Comment #386313

We already have two threads about Ferguson. Do we seriously need another?

Posted by: Warren Porter at December 4, 2014 5:46 PM
Comment #386315

I am just finding this race stuff really annoying. We have Sharpton being treated as a serious leader by our president. We have Eric Holder weighing in on one side. We have NYC mayor claiming he thinks that cops are a big threat to his kids. And we have all those clowns with the hands up don’t shoot, including people in Congress.

It is an attack on police and on our society. It is racist and it is wrong. It is that kind of hysteria that grips us periodically.

Maybe I take it too seriously. But it is hard to read the paper or watch TV w/o seeing it all over the place. Indeed, it should NOT be such a big story that a violent young man was shot by a police officer. It is being ginned up by the grievance industry. We have to speak out against it.

Posted by: C&J at December 4, 2014 6:09 PM
Comment #386316

It seems to me C&J you have worked your self up,along with many other of our conservative friends, by jumping to conclusions about justice being served and all. I have seen the other side C&J, those that defen anything done by the police without question. The tear jerk letters from defenders of the police state telling of cops beaten or killed in the line of duty. As if this justifies killing citizens for misdemeanors and petty crimes.

Holder is doing his job, the local DA wasn’t interested in justice or he would have recused his self. The kids civil rights may have been violated, we don’t know because of the botched investigation and subsequent grand jury

Sharpton is a serious leader C&J why shouldn’t he get the respect he deserves? Because conservatives want to brush the whole thing under the table? The fact that it is on the new daily is proof Sharpton and the protestors are doing exactly what needs to be done to focus attention on the problem.

DeBlasio is right the police are a threat to the citizens of the country. It is conservatives that are wrong on the issue.

What we are seeing is the ever growing, what is it now 3 different killings since the Ferguson grand jury announcement,police involved killings becoming front page news? Perhaps you just don’t realize the extent of the problem.

DeBlasio is right the police are a threat to the citizens of the country. It is conservatives that are wrong on the issue.

Tell you what C&J instead of all the blathering take a look at the list of people killed by police in the UK and the US. Notice a difference?

Posted by: j2t2 at December 4, 2014 6:50 PM
Comment #386317

j2t2

I believe in the rule of law. I will not repeat my son’s experience, but as you know the bad guys got off. This is how the system works. It is hard to convict for a reason.

Police violence is a real issue. I have written about the dangers or militarization of police. I have also written about the dangers of the war on drugs. But this idea that police are systematically targeting young black men is stupid. In Ferguson, the kid was violent. He did not deserve to die for it, but he was not innocent. In the NYC case, it should not be illegal to sell cigarets, but he also resisted arrest. In that case, it was unintentional, but I have trouble understanding the Garner case. That was a definite overreaction.

We disagree about Sharpton. We know he is a liar and a tax cheat big time. But what I object to is his racism and divisiveness. He is the David Duke of his community and deserves the same kind of criticism.

I study these kinds of things, i.e. risk and perceptions. Just because lots of people are hysterical about something does not mean it is valid. If you list the risks faced by young black men, murder by other young black men is VERY risky. Car accidents are risky. Even pedestrian accidents are risky. Innocent young men killed by cops is about as likely as dying from a fall when you are alone.

In the three cases, BTW, the young kid was innocent w/o doubt. NYC was non-violent but not innocent. Brown was not innocent and was violent.
.

Posted by: C&J at December 4, 2014 7:36 PM
Comment #386318


Perhaps DeBlasio saw how it was done elsewhere.

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/12/cop-fired-immediately-when-recorded-choking-white-student/#


“The culture of the past was that police brutality was acceptable,” Langford said. “In Birmingham, Alabama, in the present day, it is not acceptable.”

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/20/alabama.police.beating/index.html?eref=ib_us#cnnSTCText


“I thought he had a gun”, kinda denotes a certain level of fear amongst police, wonder why.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/man-shot-at-by-police-with-daughter-in-car/29934888

Posted by: j2t2 at December 4, 2014 7:43 PM
Comment #386321

C&J,

The truth is that the issues coming to light aren’t new by any means. Picking apart the individual circumstances of any of these incidents isn’t going to change the mind of the mob. You are right to point out the rule of law. It is a bit problem that a sizable portion of America does not have confidence in their legal system. However, it is the responsibility of folks in the justice system to earn that trust. Right now, it doesn’t seem like that is going to happen anytime soon.

Posted by: Warren Porter at December 4, 2014 9:16 PM
Comment #386322

Warren

Good article re http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon1204sm.html

The number of violent interactions is dropping. The numbers of blacks and white killed by cops is dropping.

The legal system is not perfect. But it should have earned the trust of Americans. I think it is a problem that so many blacks do not trust authorities. I think they are wrong. “Leaders” like Sharpton and Jackson are partly responsible.

Sometimes it really is somebody else’s fault. For too long, we are afraid to get in this discussion. We are told that we cannot understand blacks. Maybe. But nobody can understand others in all cases.

I know this. I have managed to overcome some disadvantages. To repeat. My grandfather was an immigrant. My father’s first language was not English. Both my parents dropped out of HS in 10th grade. I did okay in life. Maybe I have more to teach the poor than they have to teach me. Maybe they should pay attention and learn.

Posted by: C&J at December 4, 2014 9:48 PM
Comment #386323
The number of violent interactions is dropping. The numbers of blacks and white killed by cops is dropping.

Good news all around, but I’m not the one who needs convincing. On this very site, I have already advocated that there was no miscarriage of justice in this case.

It’s the people demonstrating in the street that need the persuasion. Why do so many people think Michael Brown was attempting a nonviolent surrender when he was shot? People don’t trust the police. In many cases, this is born from personal experiences. Ask any nonwhite American and he will probably be able to relate an anecdote where he think he was unfairly targeted because of his race. Whenever a tragedy like this happens, Law enforcement leaders need to step up and take moral responsibility. Say “I’m sorry!” and give the community concrete reasons why it shouldn’t happen again. Find ways to enable the police to enforce the law without shooting unarmed people.

Posted by: Warren Porter at December 4, 2014 11:24 PM
Comment #386324

Interesting article C&J, can you get my last comment which was held in limbo into this thread, there is a couple of links that give a bit more information than the author of the city journal.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 4, 2014 11:37 PM
Comment #386325

J2t2

I don’t know what is happening with comments. I was unable to post. I had to cut and paste. If you can read this, it worked.

Warren

I know they think that but I think they are often wrong. We all face problems. If we have the explanation of racism, it all makes sense.

Today I had to pick up a new token for remote computer access. I got stuck waiting a whole hour. Others who came in later got theirs first. In the end they lost my paperwork and I will have to call back next week. Situation normal, but I was the loser this time. Statistical. I could easily assume it was some sort of vendetta against me.

Blacks suffer from the permission to have excuses. I told you re my father who told me not to try to take the FS test because it was only for rich kids. Had I believed him, it would have been true and I would be poorer and perpetually pissed off. He believed it and never made much progress.

Law enforcement doesn’t care enough about black people to discriminate against them. Think of the trouble the cops get into. What would be their upside?

As we agree, Brown was violent. The police response was tragic and maybe stupid but reasonable too. The NYC guy also broke the law. The cops were not trying to hurt him. It was a misapplication of force. In both these cases, you can well envision a white perp treated similarly.

Why do demonstrators think Brown had his hands up? Because Brown’s dishonest little friend was clever enough to lie from the start and demonstrators are stupid enough to believe him.

I used to participate in demonstrations when I was at U of Wisconsin. It was a good way to meet girls. I didn’t know or care what we were chanting about. I think most of the people were like that, certainly a majority of the men who were just there for the “after party.”

Posted by: C&J at December 5, 2014 12:01 AM
Comment #386326
Blacks suffer from the permission to have excuses. I told you re my father who told me not to try to take the FS test because it was only for rich kids. Had I believed him, it would have been true and I would be poorer and perpetually pissed off. He believed it and never made much progress.

Yes, it is this attitude that forms most of the problem. Like your father, many African-Americans do not trust institutions to do the right thing because time after time, those very same institutions have failed them over and over again. Like in any relationship, trust is a two way street. I don’t dispute the need for African-Americans to step up to the plate on this matter. However, the exact same can also be said for our institutions.

Law enforcement doesn’t care enough about black people to discriminate against them.
This is precisely the problem. The discrimination evident today is implicit. Only by consciously suppressing it can we achieve nondiscrimination. Police need to learn to care about this when they interact with the public.
As we agree, Brown was violent. The police response was tragic and maybe stupid but reasonable too. The NYC guy also broke the law. The cops were not trying to hurt him. It was a misapplication of force. In both these cases, you can well envision a white perp treated similarly.
You are right that neither man died out of malice, but rather out of carelessness. However it is that very carelessness that is the cause of upset and uproar. One of the protesters’ slogans is “Black lives matter”, which symbolizes that sentiment. No, I cannot honestly believe that a white perp would receive the same treatment as a black perp. Why? Because when one gets to the heart of the matter, White people still view Blacks as “other” and “other’s” life will never be as important as the life of oneself, one’s kin or by extension, one’s race. This may not be explicit racial animus, but it is implicit in many of our behaviors, ideas and actions.
Why do demonstrators think Brown had his hands up? Because Brown’s dishonest little friend was clever enough to lie from the start and demonstrators are stupid enough to believe him.
Dorian Johnson is not the only witness who claims Brown had his hands up. There were many others, and it is evident from the video taken after the shooting that this story had its genesis right when the shooting happened as you can hear multiple eyewitnesses mentioning that this is what they had seen. So, this isn’t a matter of stupid protesters being duped by a delinquent teenager, but rather one of communal distrust of the police by the people of Ferguson. My suspicion is that many of these people already have the narrative of racially discriminatory police brutality running in the backs of their minds. Once one person with an inferior view of what happened imagines Brown with his hands up, the meme spreads like wildfire because it conforms to people’s preconceived notions.

Are people justified having these notions? Ask almost any African-American and they can spin yarn after yarn about instances when they suspect they were discriminated against. A common anecdote typically involves being followed around by a store-owner while shopping. Another might relate with an apparently superfluous traffic stop. Yet another might remember the time he or she was detained by the police for “acting suspiciously” or loitering. I have never lived the life of a nonwhite American, so verification of these perceptions are difficult. I suspect that many are genuine, but many are not. Some are definitely borne from simple statistical anomalies much like your quest to obtain a remote access key. The problem is that there’s very little history of discrimination against people like you and I, so we can be confident that an event was unlikely the result of racism. Black people don’t have that luxury.

Returning to your father, I want to point out what I suspect made the crucial difference between you and him. The two of you grew up in quite different circumstances roughly a generation apart. For most of the first half of the 20th century, Whites segregated in ethnic enclaves. neighborhood A was Italian, neighborhood B was Polish, etc. That sort of living breeds mistrust as groups do not learn to interact with each other very much. It also reinforces the attitude that there is no life beyond the familiarity of one’s own kind. However, by the time WWII ended, integration among Whites became quite common and most baby boomers probably thought of themselves as Americans first and as Italians/Poles/whatever second. The biggest long-term solution to these racial issues is integration of housing. When whites and blacks live alongside each other as literal neighbors, when people make small talk with each other everyday those feelings of mistrust vanish and real progress will have been made.

Posted by: Warren Porter at December 5, 2014 7:38 AM
Comment #386327

Warren

The problem I have with the community is people like Sharpton. You recall how he first came to prominence by making false rape claims. He has no manifest desire to make thing better. He makes all his money from creating hatred and he is good at his work.

I dislike how President Obama and Eric Holder embrace Sharpton. It sets the tone.

Your point about institutions is correct but - like my father - blacks are rebelling against things that have changed. Now it is a big feedback loop. Why do cops act differently in black areas? Because it is more dangerous.

The hands up story - Dorian thought it up, evidently. It quickly passed into the talk. But in the Grand Jury, under oath, it largely went away. The physical evidence also does not support this idea.

Let’s return to anecdotes. We ALL feel put upon. As a young man, clerks followed me around. The local stores would have limits to the number of young men who could come in at one time. Cops would kick us out of the park for being there with nothing to do. This was the life of a poorer white American. If these exact things happened to a black kid, he would think it was racism.

It is confirmation bias. The way to overcome confirmation bias is to be aware of it. We do not make blacks aware of it. In fact, if we point out similar problems we have had, we get this “you don’t get it” thing.

Think of these studies of police stops. Look at cars on the highway. Can you tell the race or gender of the driver at it is coming down the road?

Blacks as a group behave differently than whites as a group. This says nothing of individuals. I would say that many of these behaviors are the result of old racism, but they are pernicious.

The real bias that still exists is mostly geographical. Cops are looking for crimes where more crimes occur. These tend to be black areas. So more blacks are caught doing things that are not really serious crimes. I also understand that the war on drugs has hurt blacks more.

We should cut back on the war on drugs and that would benefit blacks. We should also not have silly laws like the cigaret thing.

Stereotypes can change rapidly. We talked before about “made in Japan.” When I was growing up, made in Japan was an insult. It was all junk. In the 1960s and 1970s, this changed. Soon made in Japan was good. There was no protest or consciousness raising. The products just improved.

IMO blacks also suffered from liberalism. I don’t meant this in the insulting way it appears. When American was ready to integrate Poles, we were just supposed to adapt. And we did. We got no special identity. People made fun of my accent and strange habits until I stopped having them. It was good. Liberals try too hard to accommodate.

Mainstream American culture is already diverse. We need not make it more so artificially. Most Americans are pragmatic. If something works or someone does something useful, we accept them. On the other side, people need to make themselves useful and acceptable. It is a dynamic process. Much of American culture has African roots, BTW. White folks have taken up those things too. It is not a two-way street; it is a multiple mix. The identity politics has no place in a truly progressive society.

In my job I live in foreign countries. I always remain American, but I adjust my habits and behaviors. Even my name is pronounced differently. I learn what seems easiest for the locals and use that. Am I “selling out”? Maybe. But it works better for all involved.

Finally, let’s be clear. MOST blacks do not have problems greater than average. Most are not poor or in the ghetto. Most have not suffered a violent encounter with the police. In both the Brown and Garner cases, I believe the situation would have unfolded similarly had the behaviors of the suspects been the same for a white guy.

Where I went to school we had a big homeless guy called Art. He was white and weird. He used to pee on walls and alternatively beg and threaten pedestrians. He used to come into the bookstore where I worked and steal things, so I would kick him out when I saw him. He made threatening noises but he went. I never called the cops on him, but lots of others did. He scared lots of people because of his size and belligerence. He died in police custody. As I recall, he had a heart attack. I am not sure of details. He was arrested with some frequency, usually w/o incident. I think he was just unhealthy and the stress killed him. What do you do with a guy like that? It seems very much like the Garner case. He doesn’t do really bad things, but he is belligerent, big and potentially dangerous.

Posted by: C&J at December 5, 2014 9:05 AM
Comment #386328

The “hands up, don’t shoot” nonsense is not a sign of protest, it’s an excuse to justify the false sense of entitlement and lack of personal responsibility that runs rampant throughout our country today. What’s worse is that it is based upon lies.

As far as this latest mythical talking point about some kind of epidemic where cops are intentionally killing blacks, the answer is quite simple:

Stop resisting, you dumb-asses.
Don’t die, comply.

Posted by: kctim at December 5, 2014 9:32 AM
Comment #386329

CJ you definitely have a perception problem that is not uncommon in conservative circles today. It is most noticeable in your adamant disapproval of Reverend Al Sharpton. Your denigration of him reeks of that perception problem and you refuse to use your intelligence to overcome that. Good luck with that but I really don’t expect you will be able to do that. Some of us like Sharpton and will continue to, no matter your silly protestations.

Speaking of irrelevance I caught Krauthammer on Fox recently as a panelist discussing BENGHAAAZIIIII. Talk about someone being out of touch with reality, wow.

Anyway I doubt you will get anyone that opposes your thought process to see the validity of your points when all you seem to want to advocate is “it’s your fault”.

To the conservative “thug” commenters here please try to understand that there are conflicting reports on whether Michael Brown had his hands up or not but we will never be able to learn the validity of that since there was no indictment and there will be no real scrutiny of the validity of those witnesses accounts aside from the Justice Department’s investigation. Your inadequate protests to the contrary only point out your inability to want to understand what really happened because it could conflict with your preconceived notions. That’s not justice. That’s bigotry.

Posted by: Speak4all at December 5, 2014 10:01 AM
Comment #386330

Look, whether a history is real or made up, it is imagined when we looked back on it, not directly experienced.

A number of witnesses do claim that he had his hands up. It’s a possibility it’s true. But after years of questionable behavior from the police not just here and elsewhere, it’s what many people in those communities find easy to imagine, easy to believe, and it shapes their opinions about what’s real.

You think they should be persuadeable, but that’s naive. You’ve been alienating people from that community since the days when Republicans started bashing busing and Reagan talked about States Rights. If you think you can just instantly catch up by doing a little “outreach”, you are vastly underestimating the challenge ahead of you. You might complain about Sharpton and Jackson, but your party and their faction of the Democrats have been playing poker as far as race cards go, passing the cards back and forth.

I believe they think the fact you believe you can, or should be able to convert them so easily is insulting, naive at best. And after so long giving the first black President a hard time about everything… I think they’re really not in a mood to listen.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at December 5, 2014 11:12 AM
Comment #386331
please try to understand that there are conflicting reports on whether Michael Brown had his hands up or not but we will never be able to learn the validity of that since there was no indictment and there will be no real scrutiny of the validity of those witnesses accounts aside from the Justice Department’s investigation.

Except that statement isn’t founded in any kind of reality. The physical evidence disproves it. The eyewitnesses who claimed it have all either recanted or been proven to be wrong by that physical evidence. The information is all there for anyone actually interested in reading it to see.

Even the New Republic, in trying to make some case that the Brown MAY have been surrendering concedes that the forensic evidence doesn’t support that. But tries to throw in some doubt. But that’s the problem, the doubt has to be the other way in these cases. If you are accusing someone of shooting another person in cold blood, you have to be able to prove it. And there is just no way to do so in this case because the forensic evidence tells a different story.

From the fact that some of Brown’s blood appears at the corner and his body was 25 feet away from that blood towards Wilson to the fact that gun casings from Wilson’s gun were 9 feet from Brown’s body shows that Brown stopped and started back towards Wilson and got close to him before he was killed.

And we find that many of the witnesses who originally claimed to have stated that he had his hands ‘up’ later admitted that that is what they ‘heard’ had happened but hadn’t really seen it.

There was just no evidence to bring the case to trial.

And the funniest argument I’ve seen to date on this is that the Prosecutor did what most civil rights activists have been asking for Prosecutors to do for decades, to not try to influence a Grand Jury by withholding or manipulating the proceedings. Instead, in this case, he did exactly as they had been wanting all this time and presented all of the evidence to the grand jury to let them sift through on their own. But that isn’t what they wanted in this case, they just wanted to skip that part and go to trail where, I can guarantee you, based strictly on the evidence provided, he would never have been able to have been found guilty. The evidence, I’m sorry, just isn’t there. And when that had happened, what different would have the outcome been? No different at all, there would still be claims of justice not being served, the process being broken, etc. Just as we saw with the Zimmerman case…

There are plenty of instances of wrongful actions by the police all over the country. THIS being one of them just doesn’t line up with the physical evidence. And that’s the real sad part here. Because Sharpton got on his plane and flew out to instigate protests without any evidence, he has helped create a situation where people are unwilling to look at the evidence with any critical thought and admit that there is just no evidence to support the original claims. Too many people are now too invested politically and emotionally to do that. This is why I always, in these cases, take and suggest that others take a wait and see approach until ALL the evidence is made available. But with elections coming up, which I believe was part of the reason for the rash rush to action by certain players, we now have a very damaging situation here that should be better spent somewhere else where the evidence is real.

Where was Rev Sharpton during the outcry against Fullerton police in the beating death of Kelly Thomas? Oh yeah, he was not black, so no sense of outrage from him there… A google search on Kelly Thomas Al Sharpton brings up no results. There was actual video of that crime, the police repeatedly beating a mentally challenged man to death, and yet they were found not guilty after a trial.

How about John Adams, killed when a no knock raid on the wrong house resulted in his death? The NAACP was upset, but I don’t remember Sharpton showing is face there?

What about Kathryn Johnston? A 90 year old woman killed during a trumped up charged of selling drugs that we found out later was so purposefully botched that it makes your head spin to read the details. Yet no Sharpton, no calls for the police to be put in jail, etc.

In fact, no knock raids are increasing killing more and more innocent people every day. Not a pip from our ‘civil rights’ protector, Rev Sharpton…

It’s a bit ironic that the ones who are pushing a race war (and that is exactly what they are doing), the ones who belong to the party that helped create the problem in Ferguson in the first place, the ones who claim to be about the ‘science’ of things, are the ones who are the deniers in this case. The DA, remember, was a Democrat…

The reason young black people in urban areas have little hope is because their leaders aren’t in the business of giving them hope. They are in the business of promising them something that they cannot deliver. A fairy tale that doesn’t exist but keeps them in power. They tell them the story that they are being held back by ‘them’ instead of telling them that they are holding themselves back. They tell them that they are being kept down so don’t bother trying. They convince them that they are not able to make it on their own without THEIR help.

None of that is true in most cases, but if that is the story that you are fed every day by the people that you believe are your leaders, then that is what you are going to believe.

And that is why most non-progressives can’t stomach the likes of Sharpton, he’s the one of that group, someone who profits on enslaving an entire group of people for his own self-grandiose needs and greedy nature. You can like him all you like because he helps sell the narrative that you like to sell, that the black people in this country cannot do anything without YOUR help, so they should vote for people you support. However, when anyone who doesn’t agree with this narrative is attacked and ostracized all the while speaking out of the side of your mouth about ‘diversity’ the truth is made more clear… Diversity as long as everyone agrees with you. How diverse.

A couple of clips from a documentary on Pruitt-Igoe, a very fantastic failure of a housing project in St Louis that has helped contribute to these issues… Listen very closely to what the situation was like for these people that were being ‘helped by the government’.

http://adam.curry.com/enc/20141204203114_stlouishousingprisonanalogy.mp3

http://adam.curry.com/enc/20141204203114_stlouishousingfinale.mp3

It’s about time we stopped trying to fix things that happened decades and centuries ago and start trying to fix what is going on now. MOST people in this country are not racist. MOST people in this country do not want to hold anyone down, prevent them from being everything that they can be. Until the powers who continually push this narrative are finally no longer paid any attention to, they are going to push harder and harder to cling on to their power by pushing us further and further to hating each other more and more.

It’s time to stop hating. But that isn’t going to happen until the race baiters stop baiting…

THAT is bigotry, Speak4all. Assuming that a group of people are racist because of the color of their skin. Or because they don’t agree with your authoritarian view of government. Or they don’t buy into your view that black people can’t make it on their own without your help… That is the bigotry that is harming is more today as a society than anything else.

And yes, it is interesting that these racial issues don’t exist in other countries that have long since let these issues go… Who don’t have leaders flying to every event to stir up protests and incite hatred… Who don’t have people who gain power and financial gain on the misfortune of others in this way. Maybe we should finally do the same and put those sins of the past behind us, as something to learn from and not as something to damn an entire group of people who had nothing to do with to begin with?

One final thought. When the US Justice Department investigation quietly goes away with no charges being filed, what are you going to do then? Accept it and move on or claim more injustice? Think hard on that answer before you try to claim that the problem you and other progressives have is that you disapprove of the way the case was handled, not that the real issue is that the police office wasn’t immediately sent to prison the day after the event without any examination of the evidence. That was what many on here were calling for then, including you I believe, that he should have been immediately indicted, against the normal policies of any justice system we have in the US.

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 11:50 AM
Comment #386332
You’ve been alienating people from that community since the days when Republicans started bashing busing and Reagan talked about States Rights. If you think you can just instantly catch up by doing a little “outreach”, you are vastly underestimating the challenge ahead of you. You might complain about Sharpton and Jackson, but your party and their faction of the Democrats have been playing poker as far as race cards go, passing the cards back and forth.

I understand that you may know so little about the history of that area since you are not from there, but the problems did NOT start with Reagan and ‘states rights’, which you want to assign as a code word for racial bigotry, and try do so any chance you can get.

You should do a little research into Pruitt-Igoe if you want to learn a little more about the actual issues going on there.

I mentioned this in another post that is not yet approved (not sure what is going on but I’m sure it has something to do with fighting spammers) but here are some audio clips from a documentary on the failed housing project from the 1950s…

http://adam.curry.com/enc/20141204203114_stlouishousingprisonanalogy.mp3

http://adam.curry.com/enc/20141204203114_stlouishousingfinale.mp3

Trying to pass all of this off as some Republicans are racist issue is just going to prolong the problems because you are only deflecting from the real issues for political gain. And it’s unfortunate, since the people who really need the help are never going to get it that way.

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 12:09 PM
Comment #386333

Well, that’s two comments now held for moderation… Is there any way to be put on a safe list?

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 12:10 PM
Comment #386334
And after so long giving the first black President a hard time about everything… I think they’re really not in a mood to listen.

LOL, so Stephen, what you are saying is that in order for Republicans to not appear racist, they should allow ‘the first black president’ to implement whatever he wants without opposition just to avoid that charge?

In other words, they should treat him different because of the color of his skin?

And who are the racists in that equation?

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 12:13 PM
Comment #386335

J2T2 writes; “As if this justifies killing citizens for misdemeanors and petty crimes.”

What an asinine comment. Can any sane person believe that any of the recent civilian deaths at the hands of police were done as punishment for some crime?

Posted by: Royal Flush at December 5, 2014 2:20 PM
Comment #386336

Royal,

Even worse, this is exactly what those of us who complain about government being force and laws being a gun being put to your head to make you comply mean. When you pass a law, you are legally authorizing the use of force, which can escalate into deadly use of that force, if the citizen does not comply.

It’s kind of like the progressives and conservatives who pass law after law after law don’t understand that with each one they are putting more people into this position of possibly being killed for what to most of us seems a petty crime.

Take the example of Eric Garner. Was selling single cigarettes a bad enough crime against the state to warrant increase enforcement resulting in police going out of their way to put a citizen in harms way to arrest them for that crime? Was he really hurting anyone by doing that? What about all of the people killed serving no knock warrants with swat teams because someone wanted to use a specific unauthorized substance? Was their ‘crime’ that severe that those people, in many cases innocent people who had harmed no one at all, really needed to be made illegal?

If you don’t want police potentially killing someone for ‘misdemeanors and petty crimes’, don’t make those actions criminal to begin with! Government is the only entity which has the legal right to use violence against the citizens of the country, we should be using that authorization sparingly, not judging the value of our legislature based on the number of laws they pass each year…

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 3:10 PM
Comment #386337

All
Building on Rhinhold’s point, it is ironic that our liberal friends want to make all sorts of rules but then get mad when rules are enforced.

IMO, we should have fewer rules - ones that almost everyone thinks make sense - and follow them better. The cigarette rule that ended up getting Garner killed sounds like a good candidate to get rid of.

Speaks
Let me emphasis Sharpton is not irreverent. He is pernicious. It would be better for all if he was indeed irrelevant.

I believe in rule of law. As I wrote, after my son was savagely attacked I was unhappy that the bad guys got off and nobody was punished. But I recognize the rule of law. The rule of law is purposely rigged in favor of the defendants. In the Brown case, the outcome makes perfect sense to me. In the NYC case, it doesn’t seem right to me. However, the Grand Jury there is made up of 23 citizens of NYC. They saw all the evidence that we did not. One of the things that seems to be true is that Garner did not die of suffocation. If that is the case, if he died of a heart attack, the Jury may have concluded that the choke hold was not the cause of his death and could not bring a murder or manslaughter charge.

Not to worry – we have Eric Holder on the job. He will vigorously pursue any leads and enthusiastically prosecute if he finds anything. The fact that he has not yet done this indicates that despite his loud braying he knows that he has no case.

Stephen

Please see above about rule of law.

Rhinehold & Stephen
I don’t know how the moderation feature works. I am not even sure who runs this site. I have a logon. That is all I know. If I suddenly disappear, you will know that I have lost the logon. Maybe Stephen knows how it works.

Posted by: C&J at December 5, 2014 4:20 PM
Comment #386338

C&J, in the editor page you can view the comments of your articles and you should have the authority to moderate the comments of your articles. You will see some that are set to unpulished or awaiting moderation, if you check them and select the option to publish them, it will make them visible. This is how you can hide any spammer comments as well, making them unpublished.

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 4:29 PM
Comment #386339

CJ how would you feel if you had to wake up every day in a neighborhood where racial attacks similar to your son’s experience happen all to frequently. In my early years the neighborhood that I grew up in had that type of attack regularly. There are black racists and white racists. You might have a different opinion of your son’s experience if you had to see it happen every day and just hope that you are not the brunt of the racism. It is even more confounding when you are young and impressionable but unable to see any way to change the environment. Unfortunately too many people do not make it out of that environment without permanent scars and a total mistrust of the system.

My experiences date back over 60 years but are still vivid memories. Fortunately I have been able to overcome most of those however it has always been my intent to confront the occurrences of bigotry if I feel they are apparent. You and I are fortunate enough to have the lives that we do, that do not have to confront that bigotry daily. There are people that do not have that great fortune.

This is not an excuse for the behavior we sometimes see when racial tensions are over wrought but an attempt to understand more than just what the racist would like us to see. If all we want to understand is what the racist sees then the racist really controls the situation.

Posted by: Speak4all at December 5, 2014 5:02 PM
Comment #386340

Rhinhold

That part I know. But as far as I know, none are moderated. They just go up when somebody writes them.

Speaks

If such racial attacks happened every day, I would worry. But they do not. We hear about every instance where the cops attack somebody like that. It leaves a victim in the hospital (or dead). Those things are not easy to hide.

It is not 1950 anymore. Indeed, I am not black. But I often walk around in neighborhoods that are black and I have friends and co-workers who are black. My daughter lives in a neighborhood that is mostly black. It just does not seem that scary. I do not observe cops attacking people at random or harassing them. If it happens, it is not common.

In my daughter’s neighborhood, the people are not afraid of the cops but are afraid of the crooks. The blacks around her are middle class. A few blocks away are neighborhoods that look like “the wire”. Everybody worries about that with good reason. There are lots of violent people there.

Everyone has a story of when he was treated unjustly, or thought he was. I do and so do you. But racism as a determining factor just is no longer there.

In fact, it overshot. If you have two equally qualified candidates for university and one slot, who gets it? Same goes for jobs. There are whole industries involved in finding and helping minorities.

But this also points to an attitude problem. I probably told you the story that I was approached for an award because I promoted three black people into good positions. But the people approaching me were disappointed when I told them that I promoted them because I thought they were best qualified and didn’t care about the race and that I had no goal to do anything like that. I behaved honorably. The idea of using race as a criterion is odious.

Posted by: C&J at December 5, 2014 5:20 PM
Comment #386341

C&J,

Race is a major factor in these cases. To deny that is to stick one’s head in the sand.

The police are the front line in dealing with the consequences of a de facto segregated and dysfunctional cultural phenomena. On a daily basis they confront the results of inadequate education, inadequate mental health resources, single family households, unemployment, gang affiliations, etc. We ask them to control our society’s failures. To control the inordinate crime, social problems and violence but to do so within the constraints of the law.

It is not surprising, therefore, that police actions resulting in deaths become the flash point for underlying racial resentment for de facto and perceived discrimination.

Blaming the police for this situation is naive. No amount of police training will reduce the underlying factors leading to the type of confrontations recently experienced. Unfortunate incidents are inevitable when police are asked to manage high crime culturally isolated environments. Outsiders enforcing the rules of a society that has left them behind.

We can argue whether the perceptions of racism are true. However, it is difficult to argue with the fact a major segment of our society (black) is mired in poverty, isolated culturally from the mainstream and has very high criminal and violence rates.

Until we adequately confront the vestiges of racism in America, we will not solve these problems.

Posted by: Rich at December 5, 2014 8:09 PM
Comment #386344
Race is a major factor in these cases. To deny that is to stick one’s head in the sand.

Rich, please explain to me exactly how race was a major factor in Ferguson, other than the victim happened to be black and the cop happened to be white?

Did the cop have a secret hatred of black people that was discovered? Was he a member of the Klan? Was the victim a secret member of the New Black Panther Party? Did the cop, responding to a description that was exactly the person he stopped (because it was him) somehow profile him? Did the cop realize that this was his chance to ‘kill him a blackie’ that he somehow lured him into his car and got him to try to take his gun away from him with some sort of candy that only black people are susceptable to?

Please explain to me what about Ferguson was about race before the victim’s friend made a statement that has been shown to be invalide and Rev Sharpton got involved?

However, it is difficult to argue with the fact a major segment of our society (black) is mired in poverty, isolated culturally from the mainstream and has very high criminal and violence rates.

Until we adequately confront the vestiges of racism in America, we will not solve these problems.

I’ll ask you since you bring it up, what exactly do you think we should do to fix the problem? How have we not ‘faced the vestigates of racism’ whatever that means? None of the people involved in the Ferguson case were victims of segregation that ended 50 years ago. Why are we allowing what happened to people’s grandparents be a rational scapegoat for their behaviors today? When are we going to hold people accountable today for their actions today?

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 5, 2014 9:25 PM
Comment #386346

Rich

I think it is indeed vestige of racism. The question is what to do about it? The political-protest response is run its course. The problem in black community is with particular segments and the habits and behaviors learned over the course of racism and more then over the great society.

As I wrote up top to Speaks, my daughter lives in a majority black neighborhood. Her neighbors are mostly good people. They dislike the ghetto people, who they refer to with the n-word. It is like whites might feel about poor-white-trash.

There is a segment of the white community where illegitimate kids are common, fathers absent, petty crime habitual and welfare abuse. I know this sort very well, since some members of my extended family fell into that group. They were good for nothing. The bad behavior lasted two generations. My second or third cousins are still not rocket scientists, but they are peaceful and have jobs.

White immigrant communities went through what blacks are doing now. There was an internal migration in the U.S. They call it the great migration, 1910-1970. Rural blacks were much like Polish or Ukrainian peasants. Remember back in the 1910s and 1920s, “science” proved that Eastern European immigrants were intellectually inferior. In fact, my ancestors were. Their poor diets and backward conditions physically and mentally stunted many of them. Even recently, the rural people in Eastern Europe were a couple inches smaller than their urban cousins.

Anyway, I think we need to put some of these “black” problems in perspective. To solve the problem, we need to change habits and behaviors.

Posted by: C&J at December 5, 2014 9:58 PM
Comment #386347

Rhinehold,

I don’t believe that the police killing in Ferguson was race related. I don’t think that the officer killed Brown because he was black. As I have said numerous times on this blog, the decision to not indict seemed proper from what I know of the evidence.

That said, I also understand how many blacks could have been primed to accept the prejudicial narrative that this was one more example of white police abuse of blacks and that the decision to not indict was simply one more whitewash. It certainly has happened in the past, i.e., McDuffie, Rodney King, Louima, Diallo, etc. In most instances, despite abundant evidence of guilt, the officers were either acquitted or received reduced sentences.

But, that was not really my point. It was that as long as we have large, isolated and culturally dysfunctional segments of society, there will always be perceptions of an occupying enemy within that community and distrust. There will always be understandable profiling by the police agencies of those most likely to be associated with crime. There will always be disproportional “stop and Frisk” episodes. It is reality.

We can require the police to be more sensitive to residents and to refrain from aggressive policing tactics but until we change the character of the environment within which they are working, it will not eliminate the type of situations that have recently received national attention. They work in a violent dysfunctional world, what do we expect?

Past egregious racial discrimination and abuse is not an excuse for current violence but it is an explanation as to how we got here. The past has not been entirely wiped out and we need to address its continuing consequences. That doesn’t necessarily mean reparations or even special affirmative action programs but certainly, we need to take our heads out the sand and realize that we have a problem with race in this country. We have very high crime rates and large socially dysfunctional communities. I don’t have any magical solutions but we need to not only talk about it but do something about it.

Posted by: Rich at December 5, 2014 10:17 PM
Comment #386348

“The question is what to do about it?”

C&J,

Exactly. It might start with both blacks and whites accepting ownership of the problem. It is not a police problem per se. Their issues are simply a reflection of a much wider conflict that remains unresolved. A little more blunt talk like those expressed by Charles Barkley would go a long way toward a real dialogue.

Posted by: Rich at December 5, 2014 10:40 PM
Comment #386349

Rich

We have to assimilate. It worked with immigrants. But we need to break the habit of calling any differences racism. Barkley was right.

BTW - We may indeed ban profiling. When looking for a basketball player, for example, we might assume that the short Asian guy is as much a candidate as the tall black guy. That would be the rule and we could pretend to believe it. But when real life intervened we would find that it corresponded more to the profile. In that case, if we were truly PC, we would have to assume any differences were the result of racism and blame the nearby white guy, who we ARE allowed to profile as racist.

Posted by: C&J at December 5, 2014 10:54 PM
Comment #386352

Rhinehold I am surprised you are so misguided on this issue. Your argument is don’t pass any laws so the cops won’t be able to kill citizens for misdemeanors and petty crimes. Or as Limbaugh put it the tax on cigarettes in New York killed Garner. Lets remember it was a a group of police officers using excessive force as they have been trained to do, by the Israelis BTW, that killed Garner.

Royal, You just seem to be unable to see the big picture here, Conservatives all over the country have been defending the police violence with all sorts of different excuses. It was the police officer, the police department and the training they have or have not received that is responsible for the deaths of way to many Americans guilty of nothing more than misdemeanors and petty crimes. The police have become the judge jury and executioner, which is not he way our system is set up.

To allow conservatives and their many excuses, filled with myth misinformation half truth and outright lies, go unchallenged is asinine IMHO.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 6, 2014 11:05 AM
Comment #386353
Your argument is don’t pass any laws so the cops won’t be able to kill citizens for misdemeanors and petty crimes.

NO, that wasn’t my argument. My argument was to not pass laws for things we don’t want force to be used to enforce. It was NOT to ‘pass no laws’. I don’t understand why people think we either have to pass laws for every little thing that we don’t like or we have go completely lawless.. No middle ground possible? No understanding that when we say ‘we need a law’ that what you are supporting is also the enforcement of that law and then to examine whether or not we want that as part of the evaluation of having that law.

As for Limbaugh, I wouldn’t know nor do I care what he thinks. Not sure why you brought him into the discussion. No, the law didn’t kill Garner, it itself is nothing but an authorization of the use of force. However the voters who voted for the legislative body that passed the law are the ones who put him into harms way. The ones who authorized the police to use deadly force to combat the SCOURGE of getting around an onerous taxation law. To then complain that the law was enforced, as they authorized, is asinine.

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 6, 2014 11:22 AM
Comment #386355

Some good news from bad. The bad guys destroyed the city and burned people’s dreams. But the good guys are cleaning up.

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/537282573417070593

Posted by: C&J at December 6, 2014 11:45 AM
Comment #386358

Rhinehold, Middle ground! we are way to polarized to be thinking any thing of the sort. Why to think the police could enforce the laws without using excessive force, the way most police in most communities do, is just to middle ground;)

Seriously though IMHO we need to focus on the heart of the problem, which is two fold the police themselves and the people who protect them when they use excessive force. We can get into what you are suggesting and blame tax laws, or any of the myriad of laws we have, which then allows for the lack of “middle ground” by suggesting the only type of force the police can use is excessive force, which we all know isn’t the case.

I don’t subscribe to all the excuses, They have a tough job, they get hurt or killed on the job, and such as reasoning to justify the use of excessive force.

The NYC police have been trained by Israeli police as if the people of this country were all insurgents and/or terrorist. Hardly middle ground.

The strange thing is how police are so quick to kill a black guy at a Walmart store with a BB gun from the store, in an open carry state and yet the grand jury system chose not to indict the police. Yet people tell us it isn’t about race, I just don’t get it.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 6, 2014 12:28 PM
Comment #386368

j2t2,

See, there’s your problem…

First, there are stories all over about excessive force, and killing, of white people by police. But they don’t get the news because the narrative that people want you to hear is that it is about race. If it were about race, then only black people would be dying at the hands of the police. Kelly Thomas, Kathryn Johnston and many many others, as I have pointed out, would still be alive. By buying into the illogical argument that this is a racial issue, you take away from the real issues…

Second, by ignoring the fact that we have too many laws telling police to use force to enforce them you ignore part of the problem. Not all of the problem, but definitely part of it.

You tell policemen to go out and enforce thousands of laws and when they and the person they are trying to arrest/detain fight back and endanger their lives, as Michael Brown did, and then expect them to allow themselves to be killed or beaten up while doing what WE ask them to do, that seems hardly fair at all.

Killing kids with BB guns is wrong, we all know that. And the policeman who overreacted should be punished for it. But when a policeman is attacked, his gun almost taken away from him and then when trying to get the perpetrator to stop he instead turns and starts towards him, what do you expect him to do? Let him start to beat him up again? Michael Brown was 6’4” and 280 pounds and when he died was 9 feet away from Wilson, he could have easily overpowered Wilson and gotten his gun away from him and killed him if Wilson hadn’t reacted.

Here’s a multi-pronged approach to solve this problem…

1) Stop making laws for stupid things, if you don’t want there to ever be a possibility of someone dying over a law, don’t make that law. Because that is the possibility that could happen in every case. It’s just a fact. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

2) Stop militarizing the police. SWAT should be used only for the times it was intended to be used for, violent armed standoffs, hostage situations, etc. Sending out SWAT teams to serve a warrant is asinine and asking for trouble.

3) When police act wrongly and there is evidence to that (not just hearsay and innuendo) then punish them severely for it. Like in the case of Kathryn Johnston where the police fabricated evidence, pressured a witness to perjure themselves and colluded to hide the fact that they shot first and asked questions later while serving a warrant to the wrong house.

4) Stop accusing people of racism without any evidence. Where is the evidence that Michael Brown was shot because he was black? Wilson had never discharged his weapon before, there is no evidence that he had any problem with black people, he had been a policeman and was serving his community in many ways up till that point. Where, anywhere, is there ANY evidence at all that race was involved in that confrontation? There isn’t any, but you want to make an accusation of race without it? If we keep doing that, or maybe this is already the case, people are never going to believe anyone when race really is an issue.

5) Make all policemen wear cameras and stop arresting people for filming the police. The Supreme Court has already upheld the constitutionality of filming the actions of the police, so why they are still trying to arrest people for this is beyond me. But having them wear cameras will help us avoid issues like this in the future because we will be able to see what happened and how it happened instead of having to try to piece everything together with forensics and notoriously unreliable eyewitness statements. It should be mandatory, now that we have the technology, that people working in our service and being asked to use force on citizens have some monitoring.

The problem I have is that when people only focus on the black citizens who are killed by police and ignore the more outrageous examples as I have given when white citizens are killed by police, it just tells me that they are only after an agenda, not about fixing the problem. And I don’t care much for backing those agendas to serve the needs of the race baiters and race war proponents.

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 7, 2014 7:15 AM
Comment #386369

j2t2

“Rhinehold I am surprised you are so misguided on this issue. Your argument is don’t pass any laws so the cops won’t be able to kill citizens for misdemeanors and petty crimes.”

Id hardly call punching a police officer wrestling for his gun and then charging to attack him again him a petty crime.

Posted by: dbs at December 7, 2014 10:21 AM
Comment #386370

Rhinehold

6) Stop coddling and making excuses for people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Posted by: dbs at December 7, 2014 10:24 AM
Comment #386373

Rhinehold, first of all I agree that it is more than just cops killing blacks and your links do show they do seem to kill druggies and suspected druggies with the same degree of enthusiasm. However trying to blame Al Sharpton and those protesting the killings of blacks is wrong. They have chosen to focus on a part of the problem, the problem is those that do not protest and draw attention to the cops killing druggies, black cops killing whites, cops killing, beating , maiming people in general try to make it Sharptons problem. Why aren’t they out in the street protesting.

You tell policemen to go out and enforce thousands of laws and when they and the person they are trying to arrest/detain fight back and endanger their lives, as Michael Brown did, and then expect them to allow themselves to be killed or beaten up while doing what WE ask them to do, that seems hardly fair at all.

IMHO Rhinehold thats kinda bogus. Remember your middle ground comment, and what we are actually dealing with is an excessive use of force when the situation doesn’t call for it. We do not give the police the right to use excessive force at will.

Your suggestions 2, 3 and 5 I am in complete agreement on, yes we agree Rhinehold. (I hope this doesn’t worry you to much;))

I would also add some more things I think we need to do.

1. Stop the way police are trained to use such excessive force, or as mentioned before the “Israelization” of the American police. Using terrorist attacks and guilty until proven innocent methodologies, such as sobriety checkpoints, is wrong and leaves the police with a false sense of superiority.

2. Weed out those prone to using excessive force, the racist and such from the police departments. They could help the situation once they understand Americans will not tolerate the use of excessive force by the police.

3.Set the usual standards for the use of excessive force higher, this line of “I was in fear” amongst others is used to often and sets the bar to low.

6) Stop coddling and making excuses for people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

dbs, That does seem to be exactly what grand juries do when asked to indict police isn’t it.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 7, 2014 12:11 PM
Comment #386374

Seems to me we owe these people a bit of gratitude for their service. IMHO we should see more protesters , any one who has said why isn’t Sharpton protesting against this or that killing should be out there protesting against this or that killing and stop expecting Sharpton and black folks to do all the work for you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/06/protests-police-brutality_n_6281624.html

It is time to raise the issue of police brutality to the level that local, state and federal governments feel the need to deal with the problem.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 7, 2014 12:22 PM
Comment #386375
I agree that it is more than just cops killing blacks

It’s not ‘cops killing blacks’ at all, it’s cops killing people. People trying to make these issues into racial issues are the racists IMO. THAT is the problem I have with Sharpton, crying racism or trying to focus only on cops killing black people is dividing the country and making an entire group of people hate another group of people when no evidence exists, anywhere, that any of these killings are racially motivated in any way. It’s inciting hatred and anger between people for personal gain, either power or money or both.

Once these race baiters are shut down and we start treating everyone the same, as we should be, then we can start moving forward as a country, united, in dealing with a real issue. But until then all we are doing is inciting racial divisiveness and keeping the flames or hatred alive when it doesn’t really need to be.

Sharpton flew in to Ferguson and cried racism less than 24 hours after the incident, without knowing any facts or having any evidence of racism, and ramped up racial anger that had no place in the event. If you want to protest the killing of a PERSON because the police acted wrongly (which in this case there was no actual evidence of at the time or even after all of the evidence came in) then fine, but that is not what was done. It was an immediate rush to paint the issue as a racial one when it wasn’t and now we are dealing with THAT instead of the real problem.

That is the problem, j2t2. Until we start treating people equal we are just making things worse. We are teaching a group of young people who shouldn’t be thinking that way that they should think that people of a different color see them differently than there is ANY evidence that they are doing. Quit perpetuating the hatred and racism and use those claims for the times when it actually occurs and we would be united as a country instead of divided so that certain people can keep or gain power…

It’s disgusting.

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 7, 2014 1:51 PM
Comment #386382
People trying to make these issues into racial issues are the racists IMO.

Spoken like a true conservative propagandist Rhinehold. The repeated killings aren’t the racist act protesting of the killings is the racist act. Way to go.


THAT is the problem I have with Sharpton, crying racism or trying to focus only on cops killing black people is dividing the country and making an entire group of people hate another group of people..

Blaming Sharpton for dividing the country not those doing the killing is just wrong headed Rhinehold. I would suggest the “group of people” all butt hurt over Sharpton are already hateful of not just Sharpton but blacks in general and are using Sharpton as an excuse to be hateful. I mean it takes a special kind of sniveling to criticize Sharpton for not protesting when a white guy is killed instead of protesting oneself.


… when no evidence exists anywhere, that any of these killings are racially motivated in any way. It’s inciting hatred and anger between people for personal gain, either power or money or both.

Yet you have evidence it is for personal gain, money or power! I would suggest there is more evidence of racism than protestors protesting for personal gain.

That is the problem, j2t2. Until we start treating people equal we are just making things worse.

A new low, Rhinehold, blaming blacks for the inequality problem, you must be dizzy with that spin. Us poor white guys being mistreated by black guys, getting in the way of those bullets fired by the police, populating the prisons for personal gain. Jeez if only they would think of us! And you call them the race baiters! truly special Rhinehold.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 7, 2014 8:03 PM
Comment #386385
Spoken like a true conservative propagandist Rhinehold. The repeated killings aren’t the racist act protesting of the killings is the racist act. Way to go.

Then explain to me how they were racist. Give me the facts. You don’t have them and you can’t…

The only propogandist is you, j2t2.

I would suggest the “group of people” all butt hurt over Sharpton are already hateful of not just Sharpton but blacks in general and are using Sharpton as an excuse to be hateful.

SO all of the people who criticize Sharpton, who is making claims of racism without any kind of evidence to support the claim, including the large number of black people who criticize him, are racists?

That’s the worst kind of racism right there, j2t2, that any critizing of a black person must be racist… It’s like the morons that claim that the only reason that people oppose Obama’s policies are because they hate black people, including all of the black people who criticize him.

That takes a special kind of stupid, or more likely a special kind of beholding to a racist belief that reject both logic and critical thought.

I would suggest there is more evidence of racism than protestors protesting for personal gain.

The protestors are not protesting for personal gain, they are just following their leaders. The LEADERS are inciting them for personal gain.

The best example of this is the call for people opposed to what happened in Ferguson to vote Democrat to counter the racist Republicans who let it happen. Except the people who ‘let it happen’ in Ferguson were all Democrats! And the cries of racism in the Treyvon Martin case when Zimmerman wasn’t white. It is manufactured inciting of a group of people by exploiting their emotions and instead of helping them get their heads straight around their emotions they are using them to keep themselves in power…

If suddenly racism were no longer an issue, what happens to Sharpton’s income, j2t2? He has bills to pay and power to wield…

A new low, Rhinehold

j2t2, do me a favor. Before you respond again, do so only after you have given me the evidence that the action that took place in Ferguson were racially motivated. I’ve asked you to do so several times and you always ignore the request. If you can show me ANY evidence that the killing was racially motivated, I’ll join the protests! Being part black, I would and have spoken out against racism when it has been shown to exist, by whites and blacks, for most of my life. But I am not about to follow the herd mentality and start crowing racism in a case that had nothing to do with it. It demeans us all…

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 7, 2014 8:29 PM
Comment #386386

BTW, I am not a conservative, I’m an individualist. I know you have a hard time understanding what that means because to you all people who look alike must therefore think alike… But believe it or not, I know it must be hard to do, every body sees things differently, even peole of the same race or sex…

Posted by: Rhinehold at December 7, 2014 8:32 PM
Comment #386394

Rhinehold,
Now if you are asking if I have specific information concerning the Wilson case I do not. I don’t have much information at all either way on this case. The DA and cops saw to that. Perhaps when the civil rights investigation comes to light that may change.

That being said what you need to realize is while not all of the time probably most if not all of us, you, me, our black neighbor, the Asian down the street, the… well you get the point, have racist tendencies at one time or another. However there are others people who are very overt in their racist attitude. It still exists today and this crazy conservative agenda, we have been seeing, to turn it around onto people like Sharpton is wrong IMHO. It is like blaming the defense lawyer for assuring the rights of the client aren’t violated.

SO all of the people who criticize Sharpton, who is making claims of racism without any kind of evidence to support the claim, including the large number of black people who criticize him, are racists?

All! I didn’t say all Rhinehold so lets stop with the games please. Diverting attention from the reason for the protest to those protesting, calling them the race baiters, thugs and such could be a form of racism or class warfare I suppose, pointing the finger whilst the other three fingers are pointing back at you, if you would IMHO.Racism is hard to prove as people can say one thing and do another, you can’t just get the fingerprint that proves it. However when the entire justice system seems to focus more police time and attention on minorities, when the system sets harsher sentences on minorities, and when those that are part of the same system seem to kill minorities without recourse in much greater numbers then non minorities it seems logical to conclude a prejudice against minorities. Isn’t that what racism is, a prejudice against a certain race of people.


That’s the worst kind of racism right there, j2t2, that any critizing of a black person must be racist

I would say multiple rounds into unarmed black kids is much more racist than this conservative talking point Rhinehold. I would also suggest institutional racism is also worst than this talking point. I would also say that I haven’t made any claim of this sort and while you may find a time or two where someone has I would suggest this racism you mention is mostly exaggeration and a growing myth perpetrated by propagandist to muddy the waters.

It’s like the morons that claim that the only reason that people oppose Obama’s policies are because they hate black people, including all of the black people who criticize him.

Not that this ongoing conservative talking point narrative is relevant to the discussion but I would suggest the moron is the one who uses absolutes such as “all” when it seems to me that perhaps on some issues it is one reason us morons claim this is the case. I mean look at the repub congress and their public decision to stop anything and everything Obama for no other reason than it is Obama. You can point to allegations of his agenda being extreme or some such as a reason, whether true or not, to subvert the claim of racism but if you only do this blanket denial without regard for the actual policies to the black guy reasonable minds want to know if there is more to it.

If suddenly racism were no longer an issue, what happens to Sharpton’s income, j2t2? He has bills to pay and power to wield…

Really Rhinehold! Certainly with your critical thinking abilities you are not offering this up as proof of something are you? You seem to have swallowed the conservative propaganda on this issue hook line and sinker, perhaps it is you that has been subjected to ” manufactured inciting of a group of people by exploiting their emotions and instead of helping them get their heads straight around their emotions they are using them to keep themselves in power…” from all the conservative propaganda on this issue.

After all it is conservatives using this reverse racism claim as a mean to garner votes power and control isn’t it. Allowing the movement follower to turn a blind eye to the real issue, which is the abuse of power and the militarization of the police in this country, so they can divert their anger to the poor and minorities which conservatives like to claim are the problem with this country.

Before you respond again, do so only after you have given me the evidence that the action that took place in Ferguson were racially motivated. I’ve asked you to do so several times and you always ignore the request.

You need to understand, Rhinehold, that Ferguson is one of many, a pattern to prolific to ignore. It is part of an even bigger problem with the police use of excessive force on the entire civilian population. Unlike the druggies who are suspected of breaking the law and being armed and dangerous before been shot at many times it isn’t the case with black kids walking down the street who don’t cower correctly when confronted for some minor violation that then escalates into much more.

You also need to understand that many times in this day and age the racist doesn’t come marching down the street in a hood an sheet burning a cross it is much more covert than that. I would suggest it is even a bit of class warfare as well a racism combined that seems to be the mindset of most of the people in this country today. I think if it were me and I was the police officer my own fear and racism from the daily grind of encountering the.. the… not so good amongst us on a regular bias, combined with the wrong type of training would play a part in my decision to shoot first in some situations. But I would have been prejudiced by my interactions with others of the same race as the guy I was so quick to judge wouldn’t I? How do you prove that to someone critical of the fat it even occurs?

IN this case maybe it fear driven, maybe not I don’t know. I do know the police investigation was flawed, the DA was not impartial and had an axe to grind. Justice hasn’t been served yet. What part of that is due specifically to racism I again don’t know, but I would suggest some part of that was due to institutional racism and or hatred as black officers in the same area don’t get the same treatment for choking someone while on duty.

But I am not about to follow the herd mentality and start crowing racism in a case that had nothing to do with it. It demeans us all…

IMHO you have followed the herd mentality. You have found it necessary to blame Sharpton and the protestors all over the country for the killings of many young people with no investigation or charges brought against the shooter. Yes it does demean us all. To refuse to acknowledge that racism can and does play a part in many of these cases is indeed a part of the problem. I don’t necessarily believe the answer is criminal charges and jail time for each and every cop but covering it up an refusing to deal with it is IMHO institutional racism.

BTW, I am not a conservative,I’m an individualist.

And I never said you were Rhinehold, I called out some of your comments as being conservative propaganda.

I know you have a hard time understanding what that means because to you all people who look alike must therefore think alike…

It demeans us all Rhinehold when you resort to such foolishness. BTW this conservative talking point is a good example of why I call out your comments.

BTW let me clear up one thing from a previous comment. Your number 1 on the list in comment 386368 I also agree with. It is the law makers who criminalize many things that could be civil matters not criminal. Correcting this is part of the solution if it takes away the ability of police to engage us for anything and everything. My bad for not realizing what it was you were actually saying in this and other posts on this thread.

Posted by: j2t2 at December 8, 2014 4:11 PM
Comment #386421

Rhinehold, concise description of the disagreement on the issue.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/08/1349706/-Cartoon-Lessons-learned#

Posted by: j2t2 at December 9, 2014 11:12 AM
Comment #386453

CJ, got it. Racism doesn’t exist because you don’t see it. Excuse me but I won’t take your word on this mostly because it is tripe but also because you don’t know what you are talking about. Try living in that neighborhood that looks like the wire for a week or so and then go back home and thank whatever diety or force you believe in for making you fortunate enough to not have to be caught in that neighborhood for the rest of your foreseeable future. Racism doesn’t exist because you don’t see any, is about as lame as an excuse as I have ever experienced you trying to postulate. But then I am not surprised, it is not part of the conservative mindset to recognize any of their culpability in so many, many things.

Posted by: Speak4all at December 10, 2014 2:21 PM
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