Profile in courage - justice done in Ferguson

It takes courage to stand up against the mob. Members of the Grand Jury must have known that their decision would be greeted with outrage, real and feigned, and that violence would result in their home town. Yet they made the choice based on the evidence. We congratulate them on ensuring justice was done.

A profile in courage that stands out was that of John Adams. He defended the British officers who had participated in the Boston Massacre. It was a very unpopular stand and Adams had to face down his friends and his community, but he decided that the rule of law and the principles of justice were more important that popular passion. He knew that when passions rule, they never govern wisely. Recall that the British really WERE an occupying army and that people died in the confrontation. As usual, eyewitness testimony was unclear and contradictory.

In the end six of the soldiers who had participated in the massacre, including their captain, were exonerated. They had the legal right to fight back, and so were innocent. Two were convicted of manslaughter.

The result was unpopular on the street. But in the fullness of time, we are proud that even before we were a country, Americans respected the rule of law enough that we could and did extend its protections to those we disliked.

I urge my fellow Americans to recall this, one of our better traditions. The process was followed and it worked. Even Al Sharpton knows this; he just doesn't care.

Posted by Christine & John at November 25, 2014 9:21 AM
Comments
Comment #386084

I enjoy watching Al Sharpton and do not see the level of divisive analogies by him that you seem to see. I know he has in the past made statements that he regrets and has mentioned them in conversations on various news programs. He brings a perspective that is perhaps not what you experience at all but there are people that do appreciate his perspective.

Your statement “extend its protections to those we disliked” should include someone like Michael Brown shouldn’t it?

Eric Holder is attempting to remind those that cannot accept the grand jury’s findings as legal recourse that there is still another process in place to determine if there was a violation of civil rights. He is doing his job and a difficult one at that.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 10:52 AM
Comment #386088

Speaks

If you saw what I wrote elsewhere, I extended this to Michael Brown. The evidence indicates that he acted aggressively and stupidly, but nobody deserves to die for that. However the evidence also indicates that the officer had reasonable fear for his life. It is likely that mistakes were made on both sides. Nobody wins in this case. That is why we need to cleave closely to the rule of law.

Eric Holder is taking sides when justice should be impartial.

Re Sharpton - as I have written before, he is an amusing little man. I enjoy watching him, but I recognize that he is pernicious. I can appreciate his rhetoric and humor but I like people to be honest and I dislike racism.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 12:34 PM
Comment #386091

Thanks for clarifying about Michael Brown. As much is being said about him I just wanted to know that “disliking” wasn’t just meant to identify with Darren Wilson. To that extent we both could probably agree that we “dislike” the violent protests also but afford them the same rule of law and should carry that to it’s rightful conclusion.

Eric Holder is doing the job of the Attorney General for the USA. I see no sides being taken other than the side of justice.

As I said I enjoy watching Al Sharpton but I expect that there are some right wing pundits you could say that about that I would have a difficult time saying I enjoyed. Just seems like you and several other conservatives have a burr in their collective butts regarding Reverend Sharpton. But like I said there are, I am sure, people that you enjoy that I would not classify that way.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 12:50 PM
Comment #386095

Speaks

Sharpton is funny, but he acquaintance with the truth is casual and episodic. This is okay - maybe interesting - in a guy at the bar. Unfortunately, he is an opinion leader and he leads people the wrong way. He is a classic demagogue. It is sad the our president talks to him as a leader.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 1:20 PM
Comment #386096

Al Sharpton should be in prison for tax evasion. The problem with Jackson and Sharpton is that they missed being mentioned in the history books along with MLK Jr. How sad on their part to have been there, but not recognized. They have both been trying ever since to become relevant. Wherever there are race problems, real or fraudulent, you will find that scrawny little face of Al Sharpton’s trying to find the camera.

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 1:28 PM
Comment #386097

Found in the 8th paragraph of the CBS report about the Ferguson AG was this little known fact:

McCulloch, a Democrat who has been in office since 1991, referenced his father’s death in his initial campaign. He survived a Democratic primary earlier this month and faces no Republican opposition in his re-election bid.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/background-of-prosecutor-in-ferguson-case-has-some-suspicious-of-bias/

CBS blasted McCullough for all the same talking points of the left on WB; he was too close to the police by reason of his family roots, his father was a cop and killed by a black, he was impartial and should have stepped down, that “the U.S. Justice Department is conducting a separate civil rights investigation, which could also result in charges”, and that “President Obama said Monday that he is dispatching Attorney General Eric Holder to Ferguson to meet with FBI agents and Justice Department personnel conducting the federal criminal investigation into the shooting”; but it wasn’t until the 8th paragraph, that we find out, he was a Democrat. Had he been a Republican, we would have heard that first and somehow he would have been tied in with the tea party.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 1:39 PM
Comment #386098

Fmr. Chief Daryl Gates
Chief of L.A.P.D., 1978-1992
Question:
Do you believe, in retrospect—and putting yourself back at that moment—that there were forces interested in exploiting that tape, that moment—forces that had an ax to grind with the L.A.P.D.?
Answer:
I don’t think there is any question about it. It was a great opportunity, a great opportunity. They had the Reverend Jesse Jackson coming out here every week. He didn’t even know me, and he stood up and denounced me, over and over again. He knew nothing about me, knew nothing about the policies of the Los Angeles Police Department or what we had done in all communities throughout the city—our community relations, our community efforts. He knew none of this. He just blasted Daryl Gates and the Los Angeles Police Department. Al Sharpton came out. He knew nothing about the Los Angeles Police Department, knew nothing about me. These people… filled the atmosphere with hate: hate, hate, hate. Those poor Los Angeles police officers. I know—I talk to them, day in and day out. They sat back and said, “Hey, what did we do? What did we do? We go out every day. We try to do the job in the best way we know how. We know what service is all about. We know. We try to help people. We try to keep them safe. What did we do? What did we do?” All I could tell them is, “You didn’t do anything. You did your job. You’ve done a good job. You’re damn fine police officers, and this is a political thing, pure politics.” …


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/lapd/race/king.html

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 25, 2014 1:40 PM
Comment #386100

CJ, the same might be said about Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. etc. except for the part about talking to the President. Sharpton is considered a leader by some people because of his involvement with the civil rights movement dating back quite a few years. As far as leading people the wrong way, the same could be said about the aforementioned right wing pundits. Tax evasion might be a problem for him but that is his problem to address. He’s not the first pundit (conservative or liberal) to face those charges, let’s see what plays out.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 2:12 PM
Comment #386101

Speaks

I don’t believe the media celebrities you mention are the same as in leaders as Sharpton. The media people don’t lead as Sharpton tries.

Sharpton made his name by false rape allegations. He is a tax dodger big time. He raises the rabble. That is why he is not simply harmless.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 2:36 PM
Comment #386103

If you are referring to the Bradley case I heard him address that on a news and information show about a year ago. He admitted that he was wrong, apologized to any law enforcement officials that were wronged and, I believe, paid money for civil suits. Unlike so many non-apologies that we hear from conservatives (“if I offended anyone then I apologize”). He admitted he was wrong, not suggested that someone thought he was wrong. His tax dodging is being addressed and he has claimed innocence we shall see. Speaking of “raises the rabble” what would you call what Limbaugh & Hannity raise? Your protestations belie the belief that you think him inconsequential. He is obviously consequential enough to cause you to elevate him to a role that he does not really have, in my estimation. Although he does carry a voice for some people who feel that they really have very little of a voice. Let’s just leave it at I don’t like Charles Krauthammer and you don’t like Al Sharpton each because of the perceived divisiveness of the other. Please spare me the comparisons.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 2:55 PM
Comment #386104

I don’t consider him inconsequential. The word I used was pernicious.

I also would to put Krauthammer in with Hannity, Sharpton et al. Krauthammer has a true intellect. The others on right and left you talk about, not so much.

I suppose I would put it like this. If Krauthammer says something, I am reasonably certain it would check out, even if I didn’t agree. Krauthammer on the right is like Paul Krugman on the left. I dislike Krugman, but he can do serious analysis. I don’t think Limbaugh can and I don’t think it ever even occurs to Sharpton.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 3:01 PM
Comment #386105

Perhaps speaks4nobdy could tell us when Limbaugh, Hannity, or Krauthammer encouraged civil unrest.

“Sharpton is considered a leader by some people because of his involvement with the civil rights movement dating back quite a few years.”

speaks, you better check hour history. Sharpton was born in 1954, and would have only been a 9 year old kid when civil right was signed into law. He has never been part of the civil rights movement. But he does have a corrupt and perverted history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Sharpton

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 3:18 PM
Comment #386107

Let see Al Sharpton is an “amusing little man”, “pernicious”, “corrupt and perverted”, “a tax dodger” and all around infuriating for conservatives I guess. All I can say about that is keep up the good work Al! The civil rights movement didn’t have an exact start date and it has by no means hit its expiration date.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 3:58 PM
Comment #386109

I find it interesting that the AG wants to be involved in local justice matters. Is there evidence that the local grand jury was unable to administer justice in Ferguson? Is there any evidence that federal justice is superior in some way?

Why wasn’t all the force available standing by not used to protect the citizens and property of Ferguson?

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 25, 2014 4:03 PM
Comment #386110

I am watching the Missouri governor, as I write, telling that “we will not tolerate this disobedience to continue”; Oh yea…where were the national guard last night. They had already been called up. These terrorists have no respect for law and order. This has gone beyond protest and justice; it has now become “lock and load”, and stop this crap.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 4:21 PM
Comment #386112

Another Democrat governor, headed for defeat in his next election. He flat out denies that Obama or Holder had told him to keep troops out of Ferguson; but why call up troops and then not post them at the epicenter of the problems? Sounds fishy to me.

450 troops in all the wrong places and guarding all the wrong streets.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 4:27 PM
Comment #386113

This whole grand jury information release was a planned move to foment unrest and meant to be able to point to Ferguson and say “see it’s their problem, we never did anything wrong”. The release of information done after dark when there was ample information about outside forces at play and wanting to cause problems could have been handled much better. Why wasn’t the information released in the morning when there was no cover of darkness to hide the perpetrators that they knew would want to cause trouble? I believe the episode last night was orchestrated to bring about the most violent response to a grand jury decision that they knew would be unpopular to say the least. Let see, make the peaceful protestors in Ferguson look like looters and rioters as much as possible. Mission accomplished. But at what cost?

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 4:30 PM
Comment #386115

Why wasn’t the information released in the morning when there was no cover of darkness to hide the perpetrators that they knew would want to cause trouble?

Who “they”?

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 25, 2014 4:38 PM
Comment #386116

Speak4yourself, so now we have a conspiracy by who??? The AG, the police, the governor…who? It is somebody else’s fault that blacks rioted, looted, pillaged, and burned their own community to the ground. There is video of both Brown’s mother and step-father involved in the protest and calling for burning the **** to the ground. So much for their desire for peaceful protest.

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 4:43 PM
Comment #386117

Since the governor is a democrat, the mayor is a democrat, the AG is a democrat…who shall we blame for this failure to release the evidence? Oh, I know, let’s blame the cops for that too.

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 4:45 PM
Comment #386118

Eric Holder just got done giving his speech. After he told how sorry he felt for the store owners, he then said his department was going to leave no stone unturned to find out, somehow, how to blame someone for civil rights violations. What Holder is really doing is spreading the hate.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 4:51 PM
Comment #386119

Speaks

That is an elaborate conspiracy theory, worthy of Sharpton.

Violent protests are wrong. Americans have a right to protest non-violently, but in this case even they are misguided. The justice process worked as the justice process was supposed to work.

Now that Holder is involved, you know that he will try as hard as he can to blame Wilson. If it can be done, Holder will do it. If the Feds bring charges against the officer, would pro-police groups be justified in protesting and maybe getting violent?

As I wrote elsewhere, my son was victim of an assault by a group of black thugs. I am morally certain that they were guilty, but evidence was insufficient. It was party the problem of the cops. In the relatively small town where the incident happened, the cops were unaccustomed to those sorts of crimes. Their evidence gathering reflected that. I accepted the working of the legal system.

Imagine the reverse. What if a gang of a dozen white “teenagers” went into a mostly black town, beat random young men, one into unconsciousness. Now imagine that the perps got off because witnesses could not positively identify them from other members of their group, i.e. not all in the group participated in the violence. They would not tell which of them did it and the witnesses could not make the distinction. Would not Sharpton show up with his travelling show and call it racist?

Since this happened to my son, I have become aware that this black on white random crime is not uncommon. It just happens one crime at a time and nobody notices beyond the local area.

Or let’s take our real case again. One of the reasons we will not totally unhappy that the case could not go forward was that we feared being dragged into a race fight. Chrissy and I actually talked about Sharpton and how if they were to prosecute the black kids they might imply that our son provoked them. We know that a lone white kid would be nuts to provoke a groups of a dozen black ones, but Sharpton would make a case like that and those who believe in the conspiracies would claim to believe it.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 4:55 PM
Comment #386120

20 American cities now looking at protests and riots. Al Sharpton is going to be stretched pretty thin to show up at all of them. Of course this is just what Obama and Holder want, national protests and riots. A complete social breakdown of America. Can anyone say martial law?

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 4:56 PM
Comment #386122

Justice meted out by the unjust is a sham. There is no justice in mob violence against the innocent. How many lives will be saved by burning down a business? Are the interests of all Americans served by the few who protect violently, and those who defend them?

Is America a just country occasioned by a smattering of injustice? Does our system of justice work for most citizens?

Has justice in America become merely a tool for those seeking power or does it remain a bulwark against injustice.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 25, 2014 5:32 PM
Comment #386125

Holder and Obama are playing a game trying to find a charge of civil rights violations. This is another sham of the administration. In other word’s, Obama and Holder are Gubering the blacks of Ferguson. Or, “they are stupid and will believe anything we tell them”. Holder has no case and all he is doing is wasting tax dollars, just like he did with Zimmerman.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 7:11 PM
Comment #386126

Sam, we have a president who believes he is not bound by our constitution, supported by the lawless attorney general of the United States, and abetted by those who desire a radically different nation with new rules of governance and no national boundaries to defend against those wishing to enter unlawfully.


Posted by: Royal Flush at November 25, 2014 7:25 PM
Comment #386127

Cities all across the country had violence and protests.
My question is why is it that they mostly carried pre-printed signs?
Who is behind this mess? Who paid for Michael’s mothers travel to Geneva?
There are many more questions, but these are a few basic ones that need to be answered.
Dont’t want to confuse those who have trouble with one fact at a time.

Posted by: tom humes at November 25, 2014 7:49 PM
Comment #386132

tom humes,
“My question is why is it that they mostly carried pre-printed signs?”

Because everyone had advanced notice of the likely failure to indict. The Governor declared a state of emergency the week prior and brought in the Guard.

RF,
“… supported by the lawless attorney general…”
Uh huh. That is easy to solve. Holder has offered to resign, and is only staying in office until his replacement is approved. The replacement, Lynch, has already been unanimously approved by the Senate two times for her previous positions.

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 9:50 PM
Comment #386133

Lost in the continued saga of Obama crises:

Most voters oppose President Obama’s reported plan to unilaterally grant amnesty to several million illegal immigrants and think Congress should challenge him in court if he goes ahead with it.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 62% of Likely U.S. Voters oppose the president granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants without the approval of Congress. Just 26% are in favor of Obama’s plan, while 12% are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Only 24% think the president has the legal authority to grant amnesty to these illegal immigrants without Congress’ approval. Fifty-seven percent (57%) believe the president does not have the legal right to do so. Eighteen percent (18%) are undecided.

If the president does grant amnesty to several million illegals, 55% of voters think Congress should challenge that action in court. Thirty percent (30%) disagree, while 14% are undecided.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of voters believe that when it comes to dealing with issues the president considers important to the nation, the government should only do what the president and Congress agree on. Thirty-five percent (35%) think Obama should take action alone if Congress does not approve the initiatives he has proposed. When it comes to his executive actions, a plurality (44%) thinks Obama has been less faithful to the U.S. Constitution than most other presidents.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/august_2014/voters_strongly_oppose_obama_s_amnesty_plan_for_illegal_immigrants

I guess it’s good that he campaign his amnesty in Chicago, to the home town crowd. Since almost 2/3rds of Americans are against it.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 10:03 PM
Comment #386135

Here’s another good one from Schumer D, NY:

>“Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them.”

—Senator Chuck Schumer

Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) — Democrats made a mistake by passing President Barack Obama’s health-care law in 2010 instead of first focusing more directly on helping the middle class, third-ranking U.S. Senate Democrat Charles Schumer said today.

“Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them” in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington. “We took their mandate and put all our focus on the wrong problem — health care reform.”

Schumer said Democrats should have addressed issues aiding the middle class to build confidence among voters before turning to revamping the health-care system. He said he opposed the timing of the health-care vote and was overruled by other party members.

“The plight of uninsured Americans and the hardships created by unfair insurance company practices certainly needed to be addressed,” the senator said. “But it wasn’t the change we were hired to make” in the 2008 election.

Schumer’s comments represent an unusual public intra-party criticism of the way Obama’s signature legislative achievement was enacted. The senator spoke at the National Press Club to analyze the results of this month’s election, when Republicans took control of the Senate and increased their majority in the U.S. House of Representatives.

Finally, a Democrat who has some idea of the rage of the American voter.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 10:13 PM
Comment #386138

Although there was a rather uneventful protest here in Cleveland, Ohio one part of the protest struck me as not only stupid but down right idiotic. Protesters which numbered between 100-150 marched to an off ramp of our shoreway and blocked traffic there for 30-45 minutes. Luckily for them the police calmed the drivers stuck at the exit. I could just imagine if one of those drivers would have plowed through the protesters all the carnage that would have happened. Not to mention accidents that they may have caused by their actions and people that might have been killed. I hope the police view news footage and identify the leaders of the protest and hold them accountable for any and all laws that were broken and make them pay for any overtime the police that were there to insure calm.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 25, 2014 11:01 PM
Comment #386144

phx8
That answer is lame. Those signs were professionally made.
Another forgone conclussion to an event. Who is behind this movement? Give me another lame reason, phx8. There are black thugs killed every day by policemen everywhere. Why this event?
Un-rev Al must have had a lull in his busy schedule and needed an event to prop up his tax evasion income. BTW why has he not been prosecuted for those tax evasion years. Kinda like he took lessons from Cong. Charlie Rangel. Maybe his national network scam is for tax evasion candidates only.

Posted by: tom humes at November 26, 2014 11:32 AM
Comment #386147

tom humes,
What difference does it make if they were professionally made? People suspected this failure to indict was coming. A petition with over 70,000 signatures was presented before the Grand Jury ever met, demanding the DA McCullough recuse himself. He did not.

The result was a terrible failure of our criminal justice system. A lot of people thought it was going to fail. A lot of people have turned out to be right. The message is that cops are above the law, and they will receive special treatment, such as a Grand Jury unlike anything anyone has ever seen, to insure they will not be arrested, even if the cop is suspected of murdering an unarmed man with his hands up in front of multiple eyewitnesses.

People are absolutely right to protest, and keep protesting.
The system failed. This is about as bad as it gets. There was abundant reason to have a trial, at the very least, but that did not even happen. There is no recourse for now but protest.

Posted by: phx8 at November 26, 2014 3:03 PM
Comment #386148

Many folks wanted our justice system to fail but it didn’t. The grand jury comprised of local citizens, armed with all the testimony, concluded a verdict. Unless one can find evidence of jury tampering or jury misconduct, the verdict is just as given by those empowered by law to make the decision.

It is the lawless who object. They are also those who admire an Attorney General and chief executive who flaunt the law they swore to uphold.

People are absolutely right to be proud of a grand jury who gave their verdict despite intense pressure to bend to the will of the mob and the Washington elite.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 26, 2014 3:25 PM
Comment #386149

Police are not above the law. Brown was a thug, stole merchandise and attacked a cop and got his butt killed. The incident in Cleveland, Ohio this past weekend, and I watch the video of the incident, shows a kid waving and pointing a (toy)pistol around at people, but one catch the toy markings were gone and this kid got himself killed for his mistake. One thing about the incident in Cleveland, NO SHARPTON, NO OBAMA, NO HOLDER, and NO REAL PROTEST with looting and burning of property. WHY?????? phx8, is this incident so different???

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 3:26 PM
Comment #386150

Rich, the criminals in Ferguson are the ones on the street robbing, pillaging and terrorizing the population, not the police. Those who advocate violence and hate justice represent a tiny minority in this great nation.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 26, 2014 4:01 PM
Comment #386151

Exactly R.F. It’s to bad we have some who blame the justice system for the stupidity of those who act like idiots and get themselves killed. It is the fault of those few who coddle the criminal element.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 4:08 PM
Comment #386152

Royal Flush,
A Grand Jury does not render a verdict. A Grand Jury only determines if there is enough evidence to go to trial. There was an abundance of evidence, including eyewitnesses. Whether the officer would have been found guilty or not, we will never know.

Posted by: phx8 at November 26, 2014 4:28 PM
Comment #386153

phx8

“even if the cop is suspected of murdering an unarmed man with his hands up in front of multiple eyewitnesses.”

You obviously have trouble comprehending drawings and audio resonses.

The testimony is quite vivid about the shot locations. The three autopsies all agreed. The locations could not have been located if the victim’s hands were up. Much of the “testimony” given was not in keeping with the truth. Truth that Afro-Americans, numbering 7, were corroboration of the facts of the police officer. I believe that would be a solid indication of truth. Those witnesses you tell about, appeared to have committed purjury. After all there were over 50 people telling their story. Some of them did not even see nor were they even at the scene. Those must be the ones you felt were telling the truth, eh, phx8.

The conclusion is that no jury was going to convict the police officer on any of the possivle charges.

Posted by: tom humes at November 26, 2014 4:44 PM
Comment #386154

KAP,
I saw the video of cops executing a 12 year old boy. They pulled up and fired within two seconds of arriving on the scene. That was just wrong.

It also begs the question: Why is anyone manufacturing a toy gun that looks real? They should be sued, or jailed. And why would any parent let their child acquire such a ‘toy’?

tom humes,
All three autopsies confirm the victim could have had his hands up. In addition, a witness at the scene yelled at the cop that the victim had his hands up, and that is on video. There is no memory involved. That was real time.

The officer changed his story about the struggle in the car, and either lied or ‘misremembered’ how far they ran from the car, and how far away he was when he fired. There was no cross examination. The prosecutors simply accepted his story at face value, even though some of it was simply not believable on its face.

The DA, McCullough, went out his way to call witnesses liars, even as he accepted the officer’s story without question. The one witness- #10- he cited at the press conference as giving reliable confirmation of the officer’s version turned out to be unreliable, changing how far they were from the incident. In addition, #10 posted some very racist stuff on a blog.

These are the kinds of things that should have come out in a trial; instead, the prosecutors acted as defense attorneys for the policeman, accepting his story at face value, and questioning everything they heard from witnesses.

Normally, a defendant does not even appear at a Grand Jury. The only question is whether there is enough evidence to bring charges. The defendant’s testimony is normally considered irrelevant to whether charges might be filed. There only needs to be probable cause- sufficient evidence.

This cop was given special treatment by the prosecutors. Make no mistake. This was bad. This was really bad. This was a major malfunctioning of the criminal justice system.

Posted by: phx8 at November 26, 2014 5:20 PM
Comment #386155

Headline from today’s CNN Opinion Page.

“Decision to announce grand jury “verdict” at night devastating”

VERDICT: noun, adjudication, answer, assessment, award, conclusion, decision, decision of a jury, declaration of a jury, decree of a jury, definitive answer, determination, finding, iudicium, judgment, opinion of the jury, prooouncement of a jury, resolution by a jury, ruling, sentence, sententia

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 26, 2014 5:23 PM
Comment #386156

Yes I believe the Toy manufacturer should be held somewhat responsible for the Cleveland shooting. I also think the parents of the kid should be held responsible for NOT supervising him properly. One thing phx8 that you don’t know about that area of Cleveland that I do because I live about 2 miles from the place in a suburb of Cleveland is that it is a gang neighborhood and shootings are kind of common there. I don’t blame the police I blame the kid for being stupid a 12 year old should know better especially in that area knowing it is a gang hangout. It was not wrong they did NOT KNOW the gun was a toy and the kid went for it. From what I saw of the video and it was the whole thing not the edited version you probably saw the kid was acting like a gang banger. Walking back and forth pointing the gun at people, how stupid can he be. The same goes for Brown how stupid can he be to attack a cop. also phx8 refer to comment 386151

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 5:43 PM
Comment #386157

Perhaps my liberal friends can help me understand why perceived injustice against black people, fanned by our national media and elite in Washington, frequently results in civil violence by black people against the persons and property of the innocent.

There are many incidents of perceived injustice against whites, Asians, Jews, Hispanics, Christians, Muslims and others in this nation every year. Yet, I fail to find the same level of outrage, protest, and civil disorder in these cases.

What conclusions are we to draw from this seeming disparity?

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 26, 2014 6:26 PM
Comment #386158

phx8

“They pulled up and fired within two seconds of arriving on the scene.”

Are you serious? It takes you longer than 2 seconds to open the car door.

phx8 SNL has an opening you might qualify for.

Posted by: tom humes at November 26, 2014 6:45 PM
Comment #386159

tom humes, The police pulled up opened the door of their vehicle shouted 3 times for him to put his hands up he didn’t and reached for the gun and that is when he was shot. The time frame was less than a minute.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 6:50 PM
Comment #386160

My understanding is the toy gun in Cleveland had the usual orange tip, but it had been removed. The claim that the cops shot the boy within 2 seconds of the cops arriving, is a flat out lie. The police ordered the boy to put down the gun 3 different times. Which he failed to do. I have seen the video of him walking don the sidewalk and pointing the gun, as I have seen many adult criminals do just before they were shot. It would be interesting to know if the officer who did the shooting was black or white. There is a reason why this incident in Cleveland has not made the popularity of Ferguson.

The comments by certain illiterates on WB concerning the events in Ferguson have got to be the most race based remarks I have ever read. We have the facts resented to the Grand Jury; we have the testimony of the witnesses, and we have the testimony of Wilson. For someone to make the comment that they don’t believe the evidence and testimonies, because somehow they know better is ridiculous and ignorant. The events that have taken place over the past few days in Ferguson are all the evidence needed to understand the so-called rage. These protesters are nothing more than criminals who exhibited false rage solely for the purpose of stealing and pillaging.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 26, 2014 6:52 PM
Comment #386161

Here is the article and the link.

https://news.yahoo.com/cleveland-release-video-police-shooting-12-old-boy-180112323.html

“A patrol car with two officers pulls up to the gazebo. The first to get out, identified by a city official as Timothy Loehmann, 26, shoots almost immediately.

In a news conference broadcast by NBC, Cleveland Police Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said the time between the car pulling up and Rice being shot was 1.5 to 2 seconds.

There is no audio on the video, but the officers said they told Rice to raise his hands three times before he was shot, police said. He died on Sunday.

Asked why the car pulled up so close, Tomba said “That’s a legitimate question,” which is part of the investigation.”

Posted by: phx8 at November 26, 2014 7:03 PM
Comment #386162

We live in a different society than we did before 9/11. We live in a day when an unattended backpack or suitcase is immediately viewed as a potential bomb. We live in a day when people pay closer attention to their surroundings in public transportation an crowded places. We live in a day when police pull a car over for a traffic violation and approach the car with extreme caution and weapon at hand; not knowing if they are facing a grandma or a drug crazed criminal. My parents talked of a day when they went out to play in the morning and didn’t come home until night, and their parents had no idea where they were; but we live in a day where parents won’t hardly let their children out f their sight.

The point I’m making is we live in a time when stupidity can cost you your life. I’m a young white guy, but if a cop tells me to do something, I do it, no questions asked. The police have the authority to make the call, the police have a very dangerous job and have split seconds to make judgment calls. In many cases the police are no different than military troops in a war zone. It has to be expected that the worst will happen in any given incident. If you take these points and add them to the case in Ferguson, where Brown was originally stopped by Wilson for a suspected felony; when Brown attacked Wilson, it was the stupidity and the result was to be expected.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 26, 2014 7:14 PM
Comment #386163

Well phx8, My question to you is if you were the police what would you rather do walk up on the kid with the chance that the gun was real and get shot or drive up and have at least some protection of the patrol car? Cleveland police often drive their patrol cars on the grass or paved walk ways of parks when there is a disturbance. It’s not uncommon here in Cleveland phx8

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 7:19 PM
Comment #386164

In the case of the Cleveland shooting, it was more the fault of the driver of the police car than the shooter. The cop in the passenger seat was delivered by his partner literally right on top of a kid with what looked like a gun in his hand. The shooter made a split second decision that was tragically wrong, opened fire, and killed the kid.

It happened so fast, I do think there is any question the cops lied about saying ‘put up your hands’ three times. The video is online. It is horrifying. Anyway, I don’t blame the shooter for reacting instantly. He jumped from the car and immediately fired. But they were lying about saying that in order to exonerate themselves.

Posted by: phx8 at November 26, 2014 7:54 PM
Comment #386165

phx8, The kid had a gun even though it was a toy gun the toy markings were removed, the police did NOT KNOW this. The kid acted STUPIDLY by waving it around at people in the park. The kid did NOT raise his hands when ordered to but instead went for the gun, cop shoots. As I said earlier the area is a high crime area. You get all bent out of shape when a cop kills a black person, why don’t you do something about all the black on black crime. Channel some of that pent up emotion to all the black on black crime.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 8:14 PM
Comment #386166

It looked like a case of Suicide by Cop. The kid was waving around a weapon, in front of a camera, waiting for someone to notice him. It looks like he was pulling the weapon out of his waist band when the cop got out of the car.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 26, 2014 10:01 PM
Comment #386167

We also have no audio and I think it’s standard procedure to start yelling as soon as possible with the command. I believe they have enough time to say “Put your hands up” three times because they would have started yelling it repeatedly as they exited the car.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 26, 2014 10:04 PM
Comment #386169

WW,
OK, here is a link to the video:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/26/tamir-rice-video-shows-co_n_6227552.html

The shooter exited the car and fired before his partner could even open the driver side door. It happened fast. Like I said, it is understandable why the shooter immediately opened fire. The problem is that they were too close to the kid, and had previously been provided bad information, and I think this cop could plausibly claim he was in fear for his life. If it had been a real gun, then he would in fact have been endangered.

Because they were so close, there was no chance to assess the situation. They left themselves no room, a split second decision had to be made, and as it turns out, they were wrong.

Looking at that video, it does not look like the officer said anything. He acted fast.

Posted by: phx8 at November 26, 2014 10:37 PM
Comment #386170

It looked like the kid was waiting for this whole thing to play out. Perhaps he didn’t expect it to happen so fast. We should be asking ourselves why he was there in the first place. Was he waiting for his friend to show up with the toy bow and arrow to play cowboys and indians? Or, perhaps to provoke just this type of reaction?

The cops made mistakes, mainly charging in so close. The more experienced officer put a rookie into first contact and the distance was too tight for any kind of mediation. The kid pulled the gun from his waistband as the cop was getting out of the car.

They’re trained to act fast, phx8. They’re also trained to intimidate with loud commands. It’s quite a leap to think they exited the car without saying anything.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 26, 2014 10:56 PM
Comment #386171

Did it ever occur to you phx8 that most patrol cars have a loud speaker and it could have been in use when they pulled up. Cops have to make split second decisions instead of the kid having his hands in the air he went for his waist band where the gun was big mistake for the kid. Of course the video won’t prove if the cop said anything or not, the camera just recorded video NOT SOUND. At the distance the camera was how the HELL can you see if he said anything or not. The kid made a mistake that cost him his life. The 2 cops have to live with the choice they made also and I don’t think they are going to have a Happy Thanksgiving either.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 26, 2014 11:02 PM
Comment #386172

Do you ever think phx8 would realize he’s always on the wrong side of these circumstances?

He was wrong about Travon Martin. He was wrong about Ferguson, and he’s wrong about this one too.

Posted by: Weary Willie at November 27, 2014 1:29 AM
Comment #386174

It doesn’t matter that he is on the wrong side; it’s about being a liberal hack and saying the most ignorant outrageous comments possible. Phx8 and Speaks4nobody are always on the wrong side, and take pride in sounding off with no logic whatsoever.

Posted by: George at November 27, 2014 7:55 AM
Comment #386176

C&J, your title is wrong, just us was done in Ferguson not justice. Perhaps when the federal investigation is completed those involved in the sloppy police work and softball questioning by the DA will be held responsible for the lack of justice so far.

Before you guys all start jumping on the “well the grand jury didn’t indict him so justice was served” bandwagon lets remember several things.
1. The police officer in our system is not the judge jury and executioner.
2. Its ok to laugh and point fingers now guys but as the police state expands and it is your kids or grandkids being shot in the street for minor offenses remember it is your approval of these events now that will bring this type of murder to the rest of us.
3. Listen to your foolishness for a moment
“Eric Holder is taking sides when justice should be impartial.”

“Al Sharpton should be in prison for tax evasion.”

“It is the fault of those few who coddle the criminal element.”

“Yes I believe the Toy manufacturer should be held somewhat responsible for the Cleveland shooting. I also think the parents of the kid should be held responsible for NOT supervising him properly.”


And so on….

This type of scapegoating is as pathetic as it is wrong headed. Have you guys gotten so completely scared, so full of hatred and fear that you cannot realize the illogical nonsense you are spouting? The police are responsible for shooting the weapon and killing the kids. It is bad decisions such as the grand jury circus in St Louis that allow this type of violence to continue and to escalate.


There are many incidents of perceived injustice against whites, Asians, Jews, Hispanics, Christians, Muslims and others in this nation every year. Yet, I fail to find the same level of outrage, protest, and civil disorder in these cases.

WTF is “perceived injustice” doing in a discussion about murdering young kids Royal? Were the kids killed at the hands of the authorities in these many incidents of “perceived injustices”? If so then shouldn’t the question be why in the hell aren’t these other groups involved in stopping the “perceived injustice” because they should be outraged. I would suggest several scenarios to your inquiry Royal, that these milquetoasts are to scared to get out and stop the violence or don’t give a rats ass about the young, or they are conservatives brainwashed into blaming the victim and those that draw attention to the murders instead of the murderer.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 27, 2014 8:29 AM
Comment #386177

The justice dept will find nothing; holder is just stirring up the black community and acting like there was injustice. Mark my word, this will go on for months and on a Friday night, during the usual document dump, we will learn that there are no charges being filed by Holder.

Posted by: George at November 27, 2014 10:14 AM
Comment #386179

j2 thinks that blaming the victim is wrong, Brown, robs a store is thuggish to the store owner, walks down the middle of the street blocking traffic, attacks a police officer and gets his DUMB A** killed. Maybe we should just let people rob stores beat up people and attack cops at will then maybe j2 will get beat up or worse yet get killed. Cleveland, 12 year old kid in a park waving a gun around, it’s a toy gun but one catch the TOY MARKINGS are gone, police come up tell the kid HANDS IN THE AIR, kid reaches for his waist where the gun is tucked, police don’t know it is a toy and shoot bad mistake for the kid and cop. Kids dead and cop has to live with the fact he killed a 12 year old, the gun could have been real and 2 cops may have been killed, but j2 is on the side of the foolish kid. Both cases mistakes were made Ferguson, Cop should have waited for backup and MAYBE JUST MAYBE Brown would still be alive. Cleveland, Cop should have stayed behind his door and ordered the kid to put his hands in the air a fourth time MAYBE JUST MAYBE the 12 year old would still be alive to enjoy Thanksgiving. Both sides made mistakes in both cases j2 but as always you and others like you take the side of the criminal.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 27, 2014 12:23 PM
Comment #386221

j2t3 asks; “WTF is “perceived injustice”…

Simple. The O.J. Simpson acquittal comes to mind. Please link us to videos of all the riots by whites after that “injustice”.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 28, 2014 1:46 PM
Comment #386223

perception is neither truth nor fact. It is the imagination of the be-holder who is the cousin or Eric holder.

Posted by: tom humes at November 28, 2014 3:45 PM
Comment #386231

Racism in Ferguson

75% of populatilon is what I will refer to as Black.
21,000 are eligible to vote.
Between early August to the latest date this year only 128 were added to the voter list.
There are 6 councilmen on the Ferguson council or which only one is black.
These are from Director of Elections Rita Heard Day.

So with these numbers how is it that more blacks are not elected to offices? I don’t believe it is because of racism. I believe it is because of lack of concern for their local government.

For some on WB there will be distortions in the thinking of some. But the truth and facts speak for themselves.

Posted by: tom humes at November 28, 2014 6:27 PM
Comment #386234

Tom Humes, I would be willing to bet that all 6 councilmen are Democrats; therefore who would run against them? The city already votes Democrat. There is no interest for blacks to vote, because Democrats already win the elections.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 28, 2014 6:45 PM
Comment #386242

Good observation Sam.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 28, 2014 7:40 PM
Comment #386245

Technically, the mayor and council are nonpartisan offices, but I have inferred the party of two members:

Mayor James Knowles III: Former Chair of the Missouri Young Republicans.

Mark J. Byrne: Former Republican candidate for Missouri’s 1st Congressional District.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 28, 2014 8:06 PM
Comment #386250

KAP, you make all of these silly excuses for the police officers but you fail to realize the bigger picture. Hatred and fear are motivating you to blame the victim, your logic says it is the banks fault the bank gets robbed, the cops fault when they get murdered.

The problem with trying to blame this on the black community is it allows the police state to expand. Allowing the police to be the executioner before the trial, before the conviction is a violation of the rule of law. Allowing the police to claim fear as the reasoning they kill unarmed people for minor violations and unproven charges isn’t justice KAP, we can do better. If you continue to believe this is law and order you are wrong.

j2t3 asks; “WTF is “perceived injustice”…

Simple. The O.J. Simpson acquittal comes to mind. Please link us to videos of all the riots by whites after that “injustice”.

Well Royal simple is half right, simple minded is more to the point, IMHO. Were it the least bit relevant I could link to many sports riots showing looting and burning of property by white people, but it just isn’t relevant Royal. Neither is the Simpson case “Perceived injustice” is such a shallow justification, as illogical as it is foolish. Trying to make the case that whites don’t riot when one of their own is killed doesn’t diminish the real issue here, the brutalization of the people of this county by those sworn to serve and protect is the issue.

Do we want the standard in this country to be that of a right wing dictators secret police, where fear is considered justice and hatred is considered justification for killing at whim.

The police need to receive different training, the militarization of the local police force must stop, this is not the exceptionalism one expects for our country. IF a police officer cannot control the far and hatred he has for those he has sworn to serve and protect he shouldn’t be on the streets.

Good observation Sam.

Really sounds more like mindless speculation to me, Royal. Perhaps this is why conservatives appreciate the violence against other Americans so much more than the rest of us, it is mindless as well.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 29, 2014 11:01 AM
Comment #386252

j2, spouting off silly BULLS**T as usual. I never said I blame the black community of anything. I blame the idiot criminal no matter what his skin color is. You do the crime you pay the price simple as that. j2 47% of all killings involve people between the ages of 17-25 years of age. Is more gun control the answer j2? Then only the criminals will have guns. Like I said j2 both sides made mistakes we can say IF THIS OR IF THAT all day long it DON’T do any good.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 29, 2014 12:07 PM
Comment #386267

j2t3 in an obnoxious remark writes; “Well Royal simple is half right, simple minded is more to the point…”

I hate to burst your tiny bubble j, I really don’t give a damn what you write, it only shows you to be small-minded and vindictive.

Your silly remarks are only intended to amuse your liberal friends since you have become their clown.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 29, 2014 3:09 PM
Comment #386270

RF
Now that the dems have screwed the pooch it seems that a quartet of WB’ers are going to NY and try out for SNL. They are going to hire the VP to write their lines for them.

Posted by: tom humes at November 29, 2014 5:24 PM
Comment #386276

KAP, obviously you still do not grasp the issue here. Using your “you do the crime you pay the price” philosophy is just plain foolish. Should that extend to jaywalking or speeding, instead of a ticket execute them with or without a trial? That is what you are telling me, that it is alright with you for any police officer to use any amount of force they choose on any person they choose for any reason they choose. Really! That is your argument. It is indeed a sorry day for this country when the sheeple choose safety over liberty, IMHO, KAP. This is a result of fear and hatred clouding their judgment,IMHO.

I hate to burst your tiny bubble j, I really don’t give a damn what you write, it only shows you to be small-minded and vindictive.

Were this true Royal wouldn’t you have just not bothered commenting? Sorry that you are so butt hurt over the comment but lets face it this “criticize the messenger not the message” is the best response you could come up with. I mean if it wasn’t simple minded why not just explain why it wasn’t and where my reasoning isn’t right?

Posted by: j2t2 at November 30, 2014 10:14 AM
Comment #386277

What is sorry j2 is your STUPID IGNORANT metaphors. You do the crime you do pay the price, no matter if it is jail time or the ultimate price and if you threaten a police officer it ain’t his fault if you get your DUMBA** killed.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 30, 2014 12:10 PM
Comment #386279

KAP, My god man have you no decency? You have set zero limits with this philosophy, You are comfortable with executions for jaywalking and no accountability what so ever by those in authority. Are you ok with this rigid authoritarian philosophy for your self, your kids and grand kids as well as any black kid walking down the street. That is a lot of hate my friend, a whole lot of fear. You kinda prove my point about conservatives though.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 30, 2014 2:09 PM
Comment #386280

Thanks for the laugh j2…your pithy remarks to KAP are hilarious.

As for me j2, I encourage your humor as there is so little coming from the left these days since there election trouncing. Court jester to Daugherty and the phx’er fits you sooooo well.

Posted by: Royal Flush at November 30, 2014 2:11 PM
Comment #386281

j2, Your comments are so IDIOTIC I from here on in refuse to comment on such STUPIDITY.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 30, 2014 2:54 PM
Comment #386283

Seems the conservatives are torn on this issue, one thinking truth is funny and the other thinking the truth isn’t so funny.

Royal I suggest you laugh now as it may not be so funny when the bullets land a bit closer to home.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 30, 2014 5:09 PM
Comment #386284

At least you admit they are both speaking the truth.

Posted by: tom humes at November 30, 2014 5:50 PM
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